Open 87 - Baby Too Much Scum - Over before 641

[armlx]

Hi.

[armlx]

Oops, for some reason this didn't end up on my watched topic list.

Vote OGML

for refusing titles.

[armlx]

And now I have a good reason to keep my vote on Goatrevolt: lurkerhunting.

Now I'm a big opponent to lurker hunting without mod action, and even I don't see that as a valid reason to vote someone unless they have stated elsewhere they agree lurker hunting is bad, and in that case you are voting for contradiction reasons not lurker hunting ones. Why is lurker hunting a scummy action rather then simply a wrong one?

[armlx]

I'm just gonna let you two argue as I'm pretty sure at least one of you is scum here and want to know who.

[armlx]

I'm just gonna let you two argue as I'm pretty sure at least one of you is scum here and want to know who.

Really? I don't find either of them particularly scummy.

The semantics argument alone got my attention.

[armlx]

Your reactions are interesting, if anything.

Really? I don't find either of them particularly scummy.

Crazy, explain what I am seeing here.

[armlx]

How is that different from what I was saying then?

[armlx]

Well, I'm not convinced that one of them is scum.

But then, I'm never convinced of anything.

To be fair, you of all people should know what me saying someone is scum on page 2 means.

[armlx]

Mod, can you please prod Rage and OGML?

Done!

[armlx]

GR, exacly what null tell has Oman voted you for and done.

[armlx]

His vote on me is because I provided reasoning when I voted for you

Oman, is this why you voted GR?

[armlx]

His vote on me is because I provided reasoning when I voted for you

Oman, is this why you voted GR?

Oman, please answer the question.

[armlx]

Oman, is that a yes or no? Thats what I mainly want to know, you can justify yourself later.

[armlx]

I agree with everything OGML said. Pushing over reaction as a scum tell is bull. He also has not answered my question.

Vote Oman

[armlx]

I should have more within a week or two.

Real useful response to pressure.

[armlx]

he's not going to do something so obvious not-making-sense like that.

WIFOM.

[armlx]

Umm, no it isn't. What purpose would Oman have for accusing someone based on completely idiotic grounds, like "putting reason with a vote." He must have had some reason, or phrased that poorly, or whatever.

What if he just made up some reason that sounded good and had to argue his way out of a hole?

[armlx]

I am saying that experienced players will never be completely idiotic.

DEFINITELY not true.

[armlx]

Netran would be my top guess.

Could you summarize quickly why? I'm not really seeing it from your banter.

[armlx]

Crazy, I think you missed this.

Could you summarize quickly why

[Netran is scummy]

? I'm not really seeing it from your banter.

[armlx]

Why would his defense of GR be weird except if GR was scum with him? And if that is true, why would you be voting him before GR as we all know if A then B does not mean if B then A.

[armlx]

Netran's connections to either me or Oman don't mean anything unless me or Oman is dead.

Scum oftentimes ignore their partners.

QFT both of these.

I kind of disagree that he would have to be one of our scum buddies at all

True, but his interactions with both of you makes it much more likely that if one of you is scum, then he is as well. Not that this means anything today, but it is worth noting tomorrow.

Still like my Oman vote.

[armlx]

I don't believe Oman has given a defense yet of the case on him. I'd like to hear it.

This actually is part of the case, given that we have asked for it for a long time.

[armlx]

So, you voted Goat because he explained his vote, and expect us to not ask you WTF you mean?

[armlx]

Oman, can you at least defend your logic that what Goat did was a scum tell?

[armlx]

Do you have numbers to back this? Any why is this argument not just an extension of "Too Townie"

[armlx]

So basically, you want us to accept this tell because you said so with no evidence? Can you show us times where it has been used, etc etc?

[armlx]

I'm not telling you to accept it, I'm saying that thats cool if you don't believe me. But its what I've seen, and I've said so since the start.

But you are because in order for us to assume you aren't just using false logic to place a vote and prompt a wagon (which IS scummy) we have to believe you.

Also, I forgot to respond to you saying it was not a "Too Townie" attack. Is explaining logic not a generally pro-town thing to do?

Then he gets rather aggressive about it, which again shows a scum who is furious a plan didn't work

Or a townie who is bewildered by the sheer lack of logic behind your vote. Over reaction is not a scum tell in scenarios where the party they are reacting to is not being logical.

[armlx]

But you're not acting town. You're acting as if you're acting town!

Confirmation bias much?

[armlx]

But you're not acting town. You're acting as if you're acting town!

Because I voted for armlx with reasoning?

Surely you can see that town also vote for people with reasoning as well, which is why this is weak.

QFT. The only thing I can see was that your reasoning was loose, but even then its not that unusual.

[armlx]

At least Oman did have an explanation that made sense. I don't agree with his "anecdotal scumtell at all," but at least he had more reasoning for his vote than GR gave him credit for.

Your definition of reasoning is pretty loose.

[armlx]

155 is a retroactive attempt to figure out how his logic could work that only occurred 4 pages after the fact.

[armlx]

Crazy: But if that was Oman's real logic then it would make him look like scum a complete idiot that doesn't know how to play mafia. Therefore it can't be his real logic.

This is the alternative to Oman being scum. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt by voting him.

[armlx]

At least Oman did have an explanation that made sense. I don't agree with his "anecdotal scumtell at all," but at least he had more reasoning for his vote than GR gave him credit for.

Your definition of reasoning is pretty loose.

This is definitely a Crazy thing.

Was that a pun or a meta comment?

[armlx]

meta comment. Except I must not tell you where. Must keep mouth shut.

Gotchya.

[armlx]

Maybe he's trying the tried and true "replacement defense" where he simply replaces out at the first sign of pressure and hopes it dissipates.

The only way to prove this is if the player is playing actively elsewhere on the site to the extent 1 game isn't an issue, and even then its fuzzy.

[armlx]

Question: Armlx, how do you feel on OGML and myself.

Well I'm voting you, and OMGL is bordering on lurking.

[armlx]

Didn't answer my question as to how you feel. Do you think I'm scum, scummy, worth pressuring, what? A vote is a lot of things.

I think you are scum. I think OGML is scummy.

[armlx]

I find it weird how Goatrevolt wants an analysis when he knows he's likely to be the focus of it, based on the current pages.

Why is that weird?

[armlx]

Armlx's aggression towards Oman worries me. I don't even see how Oman's case was even related to the "Too Townie" argument. It was about finding people who are trying too hard to look town, not people who do look town.

Oman's logic that reasoning = scummy is definitely a "Too Townie" argument, as reasoning is generally a pro-town thing.

[armlx]

Not, that was my point, reasoning ISN'T a pro-town thing in that time. Mid-day, sure! But not in random.

But we were definitely past random then. I really am not seeing how you could make these illogical assumptions, and as such am going with the alternative of you being scum.

[armlx]

How can you say it was "definitely past random" when two people in fact made a random vote after GR's vote?

The end of random is as soon as anyone makes a vote with logical reasoning. By definition GR's was past random.

Notice the logical BTW. This discounts the dumb counter-random votes that sometimes occur.

[armlx]

@armlx and Goatrevolt: What I'm trying to say is that Goatrevolt is under plenty of suspicion now, and he is trying to get more people to focus upon him?

Since when is either half of this true? I'm honestly confused.

[armlx]

Actually GR kicked off "past random" then and when you really look at it, no vote can define itself simply by its own existance. Circular logic BTW.

Why not? Clearly the random phase of the game was over as something was done in it to prompt action that was non-random.

[armlx]

But you can't use his vote to justify his vote.

He justified his vote with logic. I'm showing you how you can't just say "It was too early for logic".

[armlx]

Goat wins for explaining what I couldn't.

[armlx]

I really think rage and skitzer are scum. Maybe OGML, but I haven't seen enough there yet.

What have you seen from skitzer really?

[armlx]

His posts speak of a lack of desire to provide concrete opinions. Also, meta arguments from Alvinz play a big role here, which he can't answer but I still find meaningful.

Can you explain this?

I also think Crazy is town, so I think the wagon on him is "an easy spot for scum to
hide" if you ask me. Considering Rage/Skitzer are my top two, it doesn't surprise me they are hitching a ride on that Crazy Train.

I can agree with this.

[armlx]

Ok, I figured that was it, though I'm not sure there is enough to prove a conclusive meta-read.

[armlx]

How does this, in any way, make Goatrevolt look scummy. Wouldn't scum want the attention off themselves?

I have comments on this once Skitzer posts.

[armlx]

Mod, prod OGML please

.

Done!

[armlx]

I'm interested in OGML's responses. He is definitely someone I would consider voting for.

[armlx]

I agree with Crazy.

Cause it means that a bandwagon forms, which means I need to form an opinion on it.

Things like this make me want no never take my vote off Oman.

[armlx]

Hmm, just noticed this, mod, who wins if there is 1 mafia and 1 SK alive? The mafia PM says they win if they are half the population, but at that point the SK's "being the last alive is inevitable" would also apply. I'm assuming SK, but just wondering.

According to Thesp the SK wins if that happens

[armlx]

Oman, why are you against forming opinions, and why are you blaming a wagon on someone who is only supporting it?

[armlx]

You just said I was responsible for it the post before I asked that.

[armlx]

Your response to the question was not "He wasn't responsible", but instead an explanation of how I was....

[armlx]

No, I did not, but why was your response to the question an implication that I was responsible?

[armlx]

So, Grimmy, is what you are saying that you think Oman + Goat = Mafia and Crazy = SK, or do you think there is another reasoning for the distancing argument?

[armlx]

I do not like the above posts. Lots of FOS's, unvotes for little reason, etc.

[armlx]

Keeping my vote on Grimmy won't do any good. He can't explain for OGML.

Do you not still think what OGML did was scummy?

Also, its the FOS's without the voting. Too easy to waffle around and decide who to vote then justify it with the FOS's.

[armlx]

I'll vote: iamausername then. He's my top suspect at this point.

Why and since when?

[armlx]

I agree with the gut = bad thing.

I think we should stop discussing whether the mafia wants the SK dead today or not.

[armlx]

Oh no, I'm not against gut, I think gut is very important, but don't make it seem like its something else.

Gut is important in reads to see who deserves further analysis. Thats about it.

[armlx]

Shhh less rage.

Thats a pun b/c he replaced Rage.

[armlx]

Given that OGML was replaced, I don't really feel strongly about lynching those who aren't Oman.

[armlx]

skitzer is just as bad for this as his predecessor.

He at least stated he would be away.

IAUN, what does this mean?

Grimmy doesn't seem to be, however, although it's probably too early to tell.

[armlx]

IAUN's vote keeps looking more and more like self preservation to me. If we need it to get a lynch, I would vote him.

[armlx]

What makes my vote look like self-preservation? Why wouldn't I be interested in self-preservation, as a town player?

Self preservation is #2 to townies compared to finding scum. I'm not seeing finding scum reasoning behind your vote, so it must be #2. And self preservation happens to be the #1 scum priority....

[armlx]

IAUN, who are you talking to in your last post?

[armlx]

No, IAUN, I think your vote is disingenuous. Not Crazy's.

[armlx]

I know. I was asking why you think my vote is disingenuous, or rather, why you only started thinking this now.

Your revote conveniently coincided with a time it helped you most to pressure someone that wasn't you.

[armlx]

Actually, it might be valid for a FBI claim regardless. 2 players cleared of being the SK, who pretty much has to die today or it turns into 2-1-1, which is icky. Scum can just choose to not lynch SK, which forces a 1-1-1 where the townie decides who wins the game.

[armlx]

Good point, unless if the FBI Agent investigated Username.

Agree.

[armlx]

I'm def. going to have to reread to see what I think at this point. I remember Grimmy being a pretty good suspect, but I'm P sure we need to lynch the SK today so that makes it tricky.

[armlx]

We all have to promise that if this game somehow gets to a 1-1-1, then we let the SK win, or at least the player that looks most likely to be the SK. Right?

I can agree here. This definitely makes sense.

[armlx]

I agree on both parts of Crazy's post. The townie is an unbiased arbiter in that situation, not a party with an invested interest in the outcome.

[armlx]

Can we just have a mass head count of people saying "I am not an FBI agent with a result on a living player" or "I am an FBI Agent with an innocent/guilty on X".

Goat, looking at kills to determine who is scum is dumb. Too many ways to arrive at the same conclusion, not to mention the WIFOM ones.

[armlx]

Goat, my point is that given any player as SK, I could probably come up with a reason for them to kill IAUN. There's no way to ascribe a given reason to a specific kill barring in end game scenarios.

[armlx]

Crazy basically proves my point.

Hypo-cop is probably a valid strategy here.

[armlx]

I definitely agree with Crazy's idea, and also with Goat's improvement on the FBI claiming business.

This.

[armlx]

Definitely not Crazy.

[armlx]

EBWODP: Lets make that more clear.

I am definitely not opposed to a hypo claim.

[armlx]

This game is due for a reread. I'm going to get around to it within the next week.

[armlx]

I doubt Grimmy was trying to portray this here, and it seems like you want someone to find all three in just one big clump, which would be nice, but it isn't possible.

If I remember correctly, my point was that Grimmy had said 3 people were suspicious with a distancing argument in part, and I wanted to see whether upon further scrutiny he actually believed that.

The hypo claim is fine, except for one thing, if the Agent investigated iamusername.

Your point?

[armlx]

I'm posting this in all my games. My computer power cord just broke again, same issue as last time. I'm going to be on LA for a week or two while I wait for a new one to arrive.

[armlx]

Agree with popcorning.

[armlx]

I also say Goat is not the SK.

[armlx]

I really don't think we can read much into those results.

[armlx]

Looking too heavily into the results is going to lead us astray

I think looking at all into them has a large potential to do so. For example, you said Goat was least likely, but lets say all 3 of the people who said he wasn't SK aren't the FBI Agent. They all thought he was a logical checking target for some reason...

Basically, its all WIFOM.

[armlx]

Yeah, I'm here. I haven't had time for a reread yet though. Possibly tonight.

[armlx]

Seems fair.

Vote Grimmy

Gogo wagon Rangers!

[armlx]

Not just because Crazy and Arm are voting but I was planning on voting Grimmy anyway.

Reasons?

[armlx]

Unvote

.

As to not just leave someone chilling at L-1.

[armlx]

Vote Mencellator

Maybe this will speed up a response from him.

[armlx]

Yeah, specific reasons.

[armlx]

Armlx put a vote on me, but did not hesitate to unvote when it got too close.

And that's a bad thing? Leaving someone chilling at L-1 after their wagon grows to that in less then 5 posts is beyond iffy.

[armlx]

You'd have to be an idiot scum to actually hammer like that.

Not true in the slightest.

[armlx]

Fair enough on that. Its just a reflex to the scenario.

[armlx]

Well, OhGodMyLife was always lurky and whenever he did speak up he seemed to just be switching about and going along with every wagon,

And he was then replaced, which nulls the lurky part.

And I don't find Grimmy as scummy

ORLY?

find it odd how Arm follows Crazy's vote and votes Grimmy with absolutely no reason

This game needed a wagon to progress. I saw nothing that indicated Grimmy was necessarily town, and as such it wasa good place to start.

[armlx]

Nothing can null the fact that he was lurky in the first place. I don't see how you could possibly mean that.

Umm, the fact he was replaced can, which implies that he simply didn't have time...

Straight up lurking is rarely a scum tell anyways, and more of a "doesn't have time tell"

It's just that you were so eager to question my reasons despite the fact you hadn't provided any of your own.

Putting someone at L-1 without reasons carries a lot more weight then a second vote.

[armlx]

I'm going away for the weekend, so I won't be here at deadline, but I like where my vote is now.

[armlx]

EBWODP: That said, I will move my vote to Grimmy if that would put us closer to lynch at the time I leave.

[armlx]

That would be much better.

Done. You have till Monday morning.

[armlx]

The OMGUS is funny.

[armlx]

So..... its up to GR and Skitzer...

[armlx]

Goat, Grimmy, unless you are mafia/SK who wants to be seen as obv scum I suggest moving your vote to Mencellator or Crazy in the next 24 hours, given the fact Skitzer is AWOL. NL seems sub optimal, unless you are banking on the SK hitting scum tonight and that both Crazy and Mencellator are town.

[armlx]

Sigh, Goat, Grimmy, Mencellator are probably the 3 scum.

Lame.

[armlx]

so you are saying that you beleive that crazy is town?

More so then you.

Do you believe Mencellator is town?

[armlx]

Bah, go scum.

[armlx]

I still can't believe Crazy fake claimed FBI. I wondered if he did it because he thought he would get caught. I would love to hear his thought process.

This.

When Goat made the post about how I waffled on Grimmy D2 I thought it was over.