Open 81 - The New C9 - Game Over

[strife220]

Isn't discussion of the kills irrelevant regardless of who made them? I don't see how matching flavor with motivation benefits town. 3 kills means we have a vig, 'nuff said.

Vote: Ironman

P1 bandwagon! Though not for the post that Armix highlighted, but for

I seriously hope it wasnt the vig you killed the doctor, If so, that vig needs to be kneecapped. And if you dont know what kneecapping is, it's when you take a lead pipe to someone's kneecaps.

Blaming the vig for bad luck?

[strife220]

Rock-solid, pro-town case against me there roflcopter. And I'm glad everyone clearly agrees that D1 lynches should be chosen on page one.[/sarcasm]

[strife220]

Oh my... this is the most content in 3 pages I've ever seen.

Roflcopter, I think your 'trap' was terrible and I think Armix asking you why you were so sure Ironman was town is a null tell.

Unvote

until I get time to analyze posts more closely.

[strife220]

The risk is too big for scum fake-claiming masons to be realistic. If there were real masons in the game, the counter-claim 2 scum would be lynched on spot. Until it comes to lylo, there's no reason to even consider the possibility of a fake-claim. The issue should be dropped and Iron-man and Rofl taken as confirmed town until there's a reason to suspect otherwise.

[strife220]

Essay on dcorbe 2/3 down - coming tomorrow, a day later than promised.

[strife220]

Essay on dcorbe 2/3 down - coming tomorrow, a day later than promised.

Ugh.. posted this in the wrong game

[strife220]

FoS STrangerCoug

. I rather dislike how reluctant you were to get off the mason claimants, and then still trying to make it look like they could be scum. It's been beaten to death, but let's reiterate again. D1 mason claims would be pretty stupid for scum to do. I'm not ready to vote you yet, but should a wagon appear on you, I will sure as hell join it.

fos: forbiddanlight

and this makes me less happy with any strangercoug votes.

now i'm pretty sure we should be lynching armlx or blakadder.

Elaborate on this please. How did Forbiddan's post make you more inclined to lynch armix or blakadder?

[strife220]

forb's post made me less inclined to lynch strangercoug,

Elaborate on this please

[strife220]

So you're less inclined to lynch SCoug because of Forbidden's scummy post? Why not vote forbidden for it? (Sorry, not an attack, I just thought the thought-process didn't make a lot of sense).

I agree that Forbidden's post was very scummy. My vote isn't out right now so that's a good place for it to sit.

Vote: Forbidden

. I still have to re-read p1-3 more closely before I confirm vote, though.

[strife220]

@Lowell: Is your theory on masons outing themselves D1 new to you? Do you have meta of you saying the same thing in another open game?

i find armlx scummier for trying to take control of the game

vote:armlx

This seems like a pretty BS reason to vote and following right into what Rofl was implying: "gee, gotta lynch strife or armix, lets pick one!" I would say scum would appreciate this opportunity and act quite like Vamp did.



I'll say that this post by Vamp looks enough like opportunistic scum behaviour to warrant

Unvote, Vote: Vamparific

. Forbidden's post Was scummy so I have no problem with her wagon. Just think Vamp is better.

[strife220]

My god this game is moving fast. That's over 50 posts in the last 30 or so hours, I believe.


I don't like this post

Unvote, Vote: Greasy Spot

, by the way, which I should have done when I first noted that he failed to answer my question.

What authority in this game do you have to demand me to answer a question. Unless your too busy to read the thread and note that both Korts and myself have current arguments against Armix, you wouldn't be asking this stupidly obvious question.

Sounds a bit like a scum lash-out

I'm not the one who apparently changed my answer after 25 posts.

Idiot, do you think people can never change there minds about something. Your clueless if you think that.

vote: iamausername

for being too stupid to be a townie.

This I'm not happy with either, though not sure if it's a scum-tell or a "GS has a bad attitude" tell.


However, on the whole, I find the battle between IAU and GS to be fairly irrelevant. I don't see worthwhile tells coming out of this conversation anytime soon.

Back to the game. I'm getting very strong town-vibes from korts and forbiddan, though for different reasons. I'd like to hear more about the case against armlx, if there is one, and wonder why the case against strangercoug fell apart so quickly. I'm not ready to abandon hope...

I can understand town-vibes from Korts, but I don't get why you think forbidden is likely town. He's my #2 suspect right now. Please elaborate

I'm getting pro-town vibes from both IAU and GS. Which makes this debate all the more annoying.

More pro-town vibes. That makes 4 people you think are town just on D1. Forbidden got it right: way too many pro-town vibes and not enough scum-vibes. Marking this a suspicious, since scum have a much stronger motivation to declare who they think is town then pro-town players do. Really, there's almost no benefit for stating who you think is town on D1 - that's pretty much the opposite of scumhunting.



Still comfortable with my vote on Vampire. Interested in hearing more from Lowell.

[strife220]

Actually FL wagon doesn't exist anymore, it seems. Only has 1 voter - Vamp is the wagon-of-the-day


Korts reply to Armix's statement doesn't seem very natural. Don't think it's enough to confidently switch my vote though. Korts needs to back that statement up.

[strife220]

Korts, how confident are you in your Armix vote? If fairly confident, I'd like to see a full case because I don't seem to understand it. I'm asking you not Rofl because I don't want to have to read about Armix's page 1 pseudo-rolefishing again.

[strife220]

@Korts: Sorry for the chainsaw, but the first 4 (out of 5) points in your 'case' against Armix are really really poor. This doesn't look like you're voting for pressure, it looks like a serious 'lets lynch him' vote.

I'll also put in my desire to see Vamp vig'd.

Unvote

Going to do a closer reread of Korts. My initial vibe was that he was pro-town but the attack on Armix is too bad for me to ignore.

[strife220]

Finally plowed through FL's wall-o-text. I admit I didn't read the play-by-play too closely. The summary post was good though.


I thought this was interesting:

The way I see it,

when

you flip scum, that will be WIFOM'd and possibly confuse the issue enough to save Coug

Emphasis by me. Why would you say "when" instead of "if" FL?


Reread on Korts:
I agree with his attack on Rofl for the "who is scummier, Armix or Strife" comment. This is probably where my initial pro-town vibe came from.

*Note: Does somebody who has meta on Korts know if he often fills up the thread with noise? 3 posts about getting a cookie, 1 talking about schoolgirls, and 1 post about his indie-rock-band-that-wasn't.*


I don't like how Korts keeps arguing over Armix saying 'Rofl was wagoned to claim.' The degree to which Lowell's "masons should claim" comment influenced Rofl relative to the growing wagon is entirely debatable. This semantics debate is just distracting noise, and makes the case against Armix seem contrived.


This post is, ironically, hypocritical:

vote Vamparific

The case against forbiddanlight looks good too.

Guys, no. Reasons, reasons, reasons. Don't be a hypocrite. You're wagoning Vamp for wagoning forbiddan for wanting to wagon StrangerCoug.

Make a case.

unvote, vote: Sun Tzu

Reasons Reasons Reasons... You should be justifying your unvote when it is unintuitive. The case against Forbiddenlight was stronger than this one-post case against Sun Tzu. Did FL do something to drop on your scumdar? Did this one post by Sun Tzu really make you think he was scum enough to drop said case and Vote?


This post:

And with that, you've just given away that you're not the vig. Good job.

is BS. If you're going to make such a strong (anti-town) statement, you should probably make sure your accusation is right.

There's also a hint of scum-slip there. It seems like you know Armix is pro-town, and thus are pointing out that 'scum' (i.e. not-armix) learn about Armix's role.
I'm not sure on how I feel about this, so I'd like some help interpreting if this is null or not. If you thought a player revealed a role that he Wasn't (helping scum by process of elimination), would you say something like this if you were unsure of said players' alignment? Or would you say something more alignment-neutral?
I think I would take the opposite road and interpret it as scummy, if it was so blatant.

I think the post is likely a scum-tell, but am not confident on this one.



Moving on to stuff that I have stronger opinions on:

The Armix case:
Really sucks. He makes 5 points, the first 4 of which are null-tells, the last of which (setting up d2 lynch) I think is overblown. Could I see the case of Armix lining up lynched highlighted? Quotes or referencing which posts would be helpful.

[strife220]

EBWOP:

Vote: Korts

His first few posts gave me a pro-town vibe, and as such, his subsequent posts initially didn't make me think he was likely scum. More recently, his posts seems filled with noise, arguments against null-tells, and overall lacking clear logic and reasoning.

Korts: In your defense could you please make it VERY clear where Armix lined up lynches, and highlight how he drew a connection between you and SC but ignored the supposedly identical connection between you and FL. Also explain why you consider this scummy, and what conclusions you are drawing from it. I just plain don't understand the argument here.

[strife220]

This game moves entirely too fast. Players are posting that I never even knew were in this game.

Greasy Spot would make an excellent vig kill.

This post is scummy because:
a) Trying to control the Vig's kill-choice is anti-town
b) Greasy Spot actually provided a bit of a case against AIUN
c) Like 4 people have already said Vamp would be an excellent vig
d) You suggesting otherwise is defending Vamp (see b)



Hrm... that's all to comment on tonight. Vote on Korts stands.

[strife220]

Ugh... should be: d) You suggesting otherwise is defending Vamp (see

c

)



I point c) out as a scum-tell mainly because if you want to think of Vig's kills as an extra lynch, then IAUN is trying to undermine the majority, which is scummy. It's also closely related to d - I suppose those two points could be considered one.

I didn't shout at the people who directed towards Vamp mostly because I agreed with it.
However, IAUN's vig-direct is much scummier than the previous. He has 4 (or 3, if c/d are the same) strikes against him, while those directing towards Vamp are only guilty of a).


Comparing IAUN's vig-direct towards GS to everyone elses vig direct towards Vamp is apples to oranges. I'll elaborate more long-windedly if people still don't see it.

[strife220]

The excessive talk about the vig is unnecessary. IAUN made a comment I thought was scummy, I pointed out why I thought it was scummy, he pointed out why he disagreed with my point. Everyone can decide if they liked his defense, but there's no reason to get into a page long debate meant for the 'mafia discussion' forum. I think noisey posts are becoming a new pet peeve of mine.


Nothing else to comment on today. Vote on Korts still stands

[strife220]

362 is a VERY good point. Explanation, please, strife.

364: You really think it's scummy to disagree with the majority? Besides, vig-directing is not really scummy at all, as opposed to doc directing.

Disagreeing with the majority is fine, but trying to over-ride the majority is not. It looks like a defense to me when 5 players say "Vamp is definitely the best vig target" and IAUN says "GS is a very good vig target" afterwards. It's defending Vamp by trying to convince the vig to follow his suggestion over the majority's.

And I do think that directing the vig is bad. The vig knows that he is town, and thus any decision he makes should be pro-town. Unless an exceptional case can be made that the vig might not have seen himself, or a town majority advices it (in which case the vig doesn't have to worry if he's being mislead by scum), the vig should be plenty capable on his own. If he does listen to others, he's at risk of being convinced by scum to kill the player of his choice, which leaves said scum's hands blood-free of that townies death.

So, why is a single person directing the vig kill (when a 'majority' has essentially been decided) pro-town?





On a different note,

FL 303-304: And I also hate posts like this. TL;DR. Blinding us with text, a la vollkan. FL, we don't need a summation of everything everyone's done in the game. Give us your top couple of suspects, and why. Also, if necessary, point out a popular wagon you disagree with and why.

I don't like this kind of attack. Do you think FL typing out a summary before her suspicions was scummy? Anti-town? She did give her top suspects and nailed down an opinion on just about every player. I find it to be more than 'reaching' to attack her for that.

[strife220]

Whether or not it's pro-town to direct the vig is becoming one of those 'my god take it to MD' topics.


Still happy with my vote on Korts.

[strife220]

Whether or not it's pro-town to direct the vig is becoming one of those 'my god take it to MD' topics.

I don't understand this (this is not the only post that includes this kind of complaints). The discussion about whether it is protown affects
- whether the vig will be directed in this game
- whether the directers/anti-directers have been trying to harm the town

If discussion about how this game should be played and has so far been played is forbidden, what IS ok to be posted? Claims, votes, that's it?

I felt that the argument is coming down to a matter of opinion. I call these 'noise' arguments because both scum and town are just going to state their own opinion over and over again, giving off no scum-tells and thus harming the Sig:Noise ratio of the game. The vig has heard the arguments and will ultimately make his own choice about who he is going to kill - excessive bickering isn't going to change his mind. Whether the directors/anti-directors have been trying to harm town is made as clear as it's going to be after their first post once their opinions are made clear.

Other 'noise' arguments (arguments that become distracting after the first few posts) include whether or not lynching lurkers is pro-town, whether or not policy lynches are acceptable, when no-lynching is a good move, whether or not lynch-all-liars is a good philosophy, and (new to the list) whether or not arguments such as those previously mentioned should be debated in-thread. Once the topic turns to restating opinions, conversation should be cut off and started in the MD forums after the game.

in summary: discussion about directing the vig is important for the first few comments, but after it starts taking up pages of posts, it becomes unhelpful and distracting.

[strife220]

Still liking that Korts vote...

[strife220]

Actually, after a quick reread:
If we don't lynch Korts, can we lynch Lowell? He's made about a post every page; most every post is just 1 or 2 sentences. He pushed outing the masons with no meta proving that he actually believes it's a good move (subjective point, I know, but I think it's anti town). He's accused like 6 people of being pro-town. He made a vote on Sun Tzu without giving a reason, later stating he was 'just trying to get a wagon going for pressure,' apparently on a completely random player. Finally he's complaining about the vig, essentially discouraging him from using his kills.

Unvote, Vote: Lowell

in hopes that people will join in. It takes about 2 minutes to reread all of his posts, and I think when read in sequence it becomes apparent that he's trying to seem pro-town without actually doing anything useful.

Would still like to see Korts lynched but that wagon seems to be stalled.

[strife220]

Actually, after a quick reread:
If we don't lynch Korts, can we lynch Lowell? He's made about a post every page; most every post is just 1 or 2 sentences. He pushed outing the masons with no meta proving that he actually believes it's a good move (subjective point, I know, but I think it's anti town). He's accused like 6 people of being pro-town. He made a vote on Sun Tzu without giving a reason, later stating he was 'just trying to get a wagon going for pressure,' apparently on a completely random player. Finally he's complaining about the vig, essentially discouraging him from using his kills.

Unvote, Vote: Lowell

in hopes that people will join in. It takes about 2 minutes to reread all of his posts, and I think when read in sequence it becomes apparent that he's trying to seem pro-town without actually doing anything useful.

Would still like to see Korts lynched but that wagon seems to be stalled.

This is horrible.

1) "Accusing" people of being town is every bit as useful (in terms of me getting my opinions out there) as is hopping my vote around or peppering the field with FOSs. I tend to find scum through process of elimination.

2) I'm still right about the mason thing, and there is precedent for it. Quit your whining.

3) The vote on Sun Tzu wasn't random. Suffice to say it's a meta thing, and refers to another game. Also, it's a single vote. Who cares?

4) The fact that my posts don't take long to read is GOOD, not bad. If only everyone could express themselves so succinctly.

1) What benefit does the town get from learning who you think is town? We verbally accuse people of being scum in hopes of them proving us right. Unless a person is in danger of being lynched, the pro-town thing to do is to keep town tells to yourself

2) Mafia get more information for their choices, and masons likely won't make it to end-game - the only point when they're particularly useful. Town gain nothing but a bit of time because they don't have to attack the masons. You're miles from being right.

3) A single vote is the most powerful thing an individual has in the game. Moreover, you said that single vote was with hopes of starting a pressure-wagon. What more could you have done?

4) Short is fine. Short and low on content is subtle lurking - you've done zero scum hunting.


This is all 'standard lowell behaviour' ???

I don't like Lowell's posts, which is why I confirm voted him, but I don't like this post of yours either. You're spoiling an otherwise good attack on Lowell by encouraging bandwagoning and going for the easiest lynch possible.

Major HoS: strife220

Confused... why is encouraging bandwagoning bad? And how is Lowell the easiest lynch possible? He was one of 8 people that had votes on them at the time. Why not a HOS to Korts for saying:

Actually, if some people would be willing to vote armlx, that'd be all kinds of great.

since it's also explicitly encouraging bandwagoning?

Why is Korts better than Tin Vision or Blak Adder? ... So, tell me why Tin Vision or Blak Adder aren't good lynches? Or someone else of your choosing?

This looks like a logical fallacy but I have no clue what the name is. Not quite a strawman - it's just an impossible to answer question. He said Korts was a good lynch, and you want him to essentially 'prove' that he's a better lynch than Tin and Blak Adder? If you think Tin or Blak Adder is a better lynch, it's your job to provide a superior case.

The case on Korts is certainly not entirely based on an SC connection, since it came up before there was any major suspicion of SC, although SC being vig weakens it some.

I don't think my reason for Voting Korts had anything to do with a connection to SC. Definitely doesn't weaken it for me

My rationale... is that you don't joke about bombs at an airport unless you want to be thrown in prison,

You just finished xyyzy's game with GS in it. Go re-read his... 2? posts in that game. GS clearly has no problem with joking about bombs. Armix is right with his meta.



LOL@Muerrto for having to read his predecessor's posts.

I am NOT happy with Muerrto encouraging a vig on IM. Firstly, it'd be terrible for scum to claim masons D1 in a large game with a SK. They'd never make it to endgame. Secondly - they won't both make it to end game, town or scum. Masons are too powerful end-game for scum (mafia or SK) to leave them alive. There's certainly no rush to 'test' their masonry.

Point b) is total crap, since Greasy Spot has never presented any case against me besides "too stupid to be a townie", which is in fact not a case at all.

Point c/d) is also crap, because as I said, I'm in favour of a Vamp vig as well.

Point a) is also wrong, for the record.

Also, "trying to undermine the majority" is not a scum tell. Anything else?

He's my new hero. The case at this point is extremely weak and being run by the person who voted him because he's 'too stupid to be a townie' which I called him out for earlier in my post. This wagon is bad.

What? This is IAUN responding to my saying his direct on the vig was scummy. I wasn't voting him, it wasn't a case, I certainly wasn't voting him because he's 'too stupid to be a townie' (since I wasn't voting him at all). And there is no wagon. So you seem to have completely misread this, but came to a nice solid conclusion ('he's you're hero') anyway? This to me is scummy - like you're not actually reading what's being said and just fitting your statements together so that they'll appear concrete. Please elaborate on how you made your conclusions and what you mis-read.

[strife220]

Where's the disadvantage to testing them now?

The chance of hitting actual scum or actual SK?

If they're masons, the SK won't be in a rush to kill them, but if he wants to stand any chance of winning, he'll have to kill them before lylo.

Actually, I don't understand why we're even entertaining the chance of them being scum. Like IAUN said above, scum risking outing half their team, hoping that don't get SK'd or counter-claimed is too ridiculous to consider.

[strife220]

No. The train is being engineered by GS, despite whatever you said about IAUN. GS's reasoning was 'he's too stupid to be a townie' which I SPECIFICALLY mentioned in my post. Has nothing to do with you.

You quoted a post where IAUN was responding directly to me about a post that I made. How does that have anything to do with GS and nothing to do with me?

[strife220]

Wait, is someone seriously suggesting the masons aren't confirmed???

God that's insane.

Yes and Yes

[strife220]

Mason plan would be fine for scum if there wasn't a (really good) chance of getting counterclaimed and knocking it down to 2 scum on the first day. No mafia would take such a stupid risk.

[strife220]

Another suspect is strife220. Trying to ban discussion about strategic issues as a 'matter of opinion' and then attacking Lowell based on the mason plan suggestion.

I made like 4 points that I didn't like against Lowell. His mason request was mentioned because it's, as far as I'm concerned, indisputably anti-town (unlike directing a vig, which is at least arguable). Same thing with Muerrto's 'lets vig a mason.' It's so illogical, that he very well could have made it just so he could say:

Scum Muerrto: Wait, people don't like the idea of testing the mason's? Ok, I'll back down and fit in and listen to the town.

Town Muerrto: You're all wrong, period. If they live till LYLO and cause us a loss it's on all of your heads and I'll be sure to say I told you so.

I think could be a scum-tell or a null-tell to argue something that ridiculous, definitely not a town-tell. Both Lowell's and Muerrto's points. Regardless, it's anti-town.

[strife220]

I don't know if anybody's listened to rofl yet the whole game. I know I haven't - I've been treating his posts as background noise. Where are you getting this 'people treating him like a cop' from?

[strife220]

Woah what happened to the Korts-wagon? Did I miss something?

[strife220]

Suppose the BlakAdder wagon is fine too. Just re-read him, and found this:

EBWOP: Finally breached the massive wall of text. Great job there, Forbiddan. This just made scumhunting loads easier.
In regards to the content itself, you did a good job of keeping neutral, not painting anyone in a good or negative light.
I'll have finished going over my own notes in a minute, and I'll have a more game-related post.

This

Okay, I've been away for a while, but I should have no problems getting ahold of a computer now. I've reread and I'm finding StrangerCoug somewhat suspicious.

I'll

FOS GS

for tunnel vision.

Explain, even if you just spit out post numbers.

Where have you been for the last ten pages or so? He's been OMGUSing Username repeatedly without good reason.

HoS: Lowell

for calling a powerful pro-town power role useless.

Wtf. That's all I have to say.

That, and all the bandwagoning and votehopping, not getting off of rofl's back even after he claimed mason, and everything else that's been brought up already.

Vote: StrangerCoug

and this

Why are we still debating on who we should lynch? Has anybody other than me read #507?

Something tells me this wasn't serious. Why would the Godfather out himself? If you think he was serious, Coug, just vig him tonight, and we can try to hit a goon today.

Also, while I'm at it,

vote: Lowell

for:
A. Demanding that the Masons claim
2. Lots of meaningless posts
D. Randomly trying to force a bandwagon on Sun Tzu
There are probably other reasons, but I'm kinda busy right now, and I'll list them later if I get the chance.

To all be pretty scummy. The "wow good job" is so far overdone, and the votes on SC and Lowell both seem like forced cases. BlakAdder, Korts, and Lowell are all cool lynches by me. Joining the only bandwagon that has any steam:

Unvote, Vote: BlakAdder

[strife220]

Haven't posted here in a few days. Not a lot has happened, BlakAdder is still a good lynch. Deadline's in a week and everybody should be looking more seriously at the vote count and contributing to the upcoming lynch. Right now BlakAdder and GreasySpot are the top two, with several people at 1 vote each.

[strife220]

26th is 3 days before deadline (and 3 days from today). That's plenty of time for him to claim and for us to switch lynches. I'm pretty bad at reading rules - does anyone know what happens if a majority isn't reached by deadline?


If BlakAdder claims a power-role, Greasy-spot has the next most votes. Unfortunately we won't be able to get a claim out of him either. I still like Korts for a lynch.

[strife220]

If BlakAdder has an uncountered powerrole, I say we vote for an extension at that time

[strife220]

Happy 'BlakAdder should get back so we can lynch/change directions soon' day

[strife220]

Should have claimed it like Greasy Spot did in that one game he got nommed for a scummy in.

What?

[strife220]

428: Strife is very happy with his Korts vote. You seem really convinced of his scuminess, since you've posted, 'happy with korts vote' quite a bit already. Could you point me to the post where you made a case on him? I haven't seen anything that would make me as confident in a Korts vote as you are.

Check my 11th to 15th post. Biggest point was how terrible his case against Armix.

I often add that I'm happy with a particular vote to emphasize that my vote isn't random, isn't just for pressure, and/or isn't just for lack of a good place to have the vote. Perhaps a bit redundant in a game with frequent vote counts, but it's a sort-of habit.

[strife220]

ebwop:
lets lynch blakadder now please. L-2, no need to wait until deadline, gogo

[strife220]

SC, stop listening to what other people are saying about who you should vig, unless we can all come around and do a second full vote on it. Taking 3-4 opinions is not going to help.

Worth repeating

[strife220]

Also, SC killing someone only proves he's either an SK OR a Vig, not a Vig.

SC not being killed by the real vig tonight would prove that he's a vig, however.

0-1 Vigilante

You are a vigilante. Each night you may send me a PM to attempt to kill one other player.

You win when all factions opposing the town have been eliminated.

SC surviving the night proves that either he's the vig, or we don't have a vig.

[strife220]

i fail

[strife220]

Vote: Muerrto

D1 when everyone was pushing the Vamp vig, IAUN pulled the "GS would also make a good vig..."

Greasy Spot would make an excellent vig kill.

Indirect way of trying to save Vamp from a vig-kill when he was a nearly unanimous decision for viging. Subtle scum-buddy tactic. See page 14 and 15.

[strife220]

Also, can we see the unanimous decision that I was a good vig target?

Vamp was originally to be lynched. About 5 people stated explicitly that Vamp was a good vig target, and nobody disagreed, then everyone went to voting elsewhere under the assumption that Vamp would be handled outside of votes.

SC, thank you not killing me with your vig action, but now you guys wanna waste a lynch on me?

You should know better than to make useless comments like this.

Where's the case? IAUN didn't say 'don't vig Vamp' he said 'someone else is also good' and you all assume instead of redirecting to a target he'd rather have killed he was protecting me?

Scum wouldn't be so direct to explicitly try and protect their buddy - it'd bring them too much heat when the other flips scum. What scum would do is try to undermine the town's lynch choice by presenting alternatives, despite Vamp already being an ideal and pre-determined vig target. Attacking a third party when your scum-buddy is under heavy suspicion is a nice, solid scumtell.

[strife220]

So did anyone have a case on

me

and not Vamp?

That's an irrelevant question if I've ever heard one. By replacing into the game you take on all the actions of your predecessor. You can't be expected to explain his behaviour, but we can't be expected to ignore it.

Yes, we know Roflcopter is suffering from 'god-like due to immunity' syndrome. Just ignore him like everyone else.


#805 is way over the top, and Muerrto is behaving irrationally. Whether it's a scum-tell in and of itself is up to interpretation, but I certainly don't think it's a town tell.

[strife220]

I don't think GS and IAUN's intereactions were likely distancing/bussing, and I don't really understand the case against him, unless we're talking about his D1 actions in isolation. Muerrto's implying that Fonz hasn't presented a case against GS/Ting is an understatement. From what I can tell, Fonz's case is "GS was distancing IAUN," which is not a case whatsoever. Calling something Distancing is belittling a town-tell, but is hardly ever a reliable scum tell - GS/IAUN interaction was no exception. It's certainly strange that Fonz is pushing this so strongly, but I don't mark him as highly likely scum for it. While Rofl is correct that scum hate confirmed-towns, it's very risky business to stick your neck out to do this instead of just NKing the obv-townie.

i seriously hope strife and all the other people saying i should just be ignored aren't ignoring the stuff i've said today...

Yea I'm actually reading your posts now. Welcome to the game.

[strife220]

Anything in particular that makes you think that, Rofl? I don't see anything particularly obvious that connects them. Or is it just that you think they're both independently scummy?


I'm still happy with my vote where it is, but I just picked through the 'still alive' list and noticed there's quite a bit of lurking going on. Silence, Iron Man (I know, claimed mason), and Orange Penguin are all very lacking on any contribution to the game thus far. Orange Penguin in particular has been truly lurking, as he's posting frequently in other games he's playing.

[strife220]

strife, there's like a full page of fonz answering all of the criticisms aimed at muerrto. thats a pretty solid connection.

Ah. That was like 4 days ago; I thought you said that because of something more recent.

[strife220]

see the post directly prior to mine, then imagine me reading it and going *headdesk* several times before writing that post.

You made a post that referenced a conversation from half a week ago like it just happened. If you want to propose a theory, it shouldn't require people to re-read the past 100 posts to see what you're referencing.

[strife220]

Um...can you quote that? As far as I can tell Vamp used NO logic. He just popped in and voted people. Where's the BS logic?

This made me chuckle.

[strife220]

We know you can't defend Vamp.
You know we can't be expected to ignore Vamp's actions.

I understand Armix's attack on how calling your own death a mislynch is an appeal to emotion, but I also think it's not a very good attack because I say the same thing as town and scum (saying my own lynch is a mislynch).

[strife220]

I'll third that. Nothing interesting or new to talk about. Still cool with a Muerrto lynch. Korts would probably be my second choice for reasons I was voting him yesterday.

[strife220]

To tell the truth, I'm leaning more towards Muerrto's side of the case right now. Granted, he isnt the most pro-town player, but I could probably cite a few players that are more scummy than him.

Nah that's fine we don't want to hear about suspects and opinions. Continue to lurk. [/sarcasm]

Care to tell us WHO those players are ? Maybe why as well?

[strife220]

EBWOP:
Quick re-read of Muerrto - his first few posts with regards to IAUN are certainly interesting.

Point b) is total crap, since Greasy Spot has never presented any case against me besides "too stupid to be a townie", which is in fact not a case at all.

Point c/d) is also crap, because as I said, I'm in favour of a Vamp vig as well.

Point a) is also wrong, for the record.

Also, "trying to undermine the majority" is not a scum tell. Anything else?

He's my new hero. The case at this point is extremely weak and being run by the person who voted him because he's 'too stupid to be a townie' which I called him out for earlier in my post. This wagon is bad.

Here's something for you to defend against. Explain why the points I raised against IAUN's "Hey lets vig GS" are so poor. IAUN is your hero because a short post was made against him and his defense was 'those points are crap' ??

[strife220]

Muerrto seemed to miss my argument completely (except for possibly B), so I'll try this:

Greasy Spot would make an excellent vig kill.

This post is scummy because:
a) Trying to control the Vig's kill-choice is anti-town
b) Greasy Spot actually provided a bit of a case against AIUN
c) Like 4 people have already said Vamp would be an excellent vig
d) You suggesting otherwise is defending Vamp (see b)

Please explain to me why my four points are wrong (or three, if you wanna skip b).

Firstly though, IAUN never suggested Vamp would be a good vig. He was lying and you're lying by saying otherwise. If I'm wrong, please find where he says so.

[strife220]

Wait, so it's OK for people to direct the vig to kill Vamp, but not Greasy Spot?

By the way, I'm absolutely in favour of a Vamp vidging too, and have never said otherwise.

He didn't make that statement until after I attacked him for trying to re-direct the vig.

He was completely silent about the Vamp vig-kill, then he suggested a GS vig, then he got called on trying to re-direct the town-decided vamp vig. THEN he says he's fine with Vamp too. What scum say after they get called on a scummy action doesn't count towards a defense.

A) Name someone who hasn't tried to direct the vig kill this game please.

That doesn't make it pro-town.

B) Please state GS's case on IAUN. His case was(and I QUOTE again)

vote: iamausername for being too stupid to be a townie.

Way to be misleading. IAUN and GS were arguing for the previous 10 posts. You quoted his vote, but before that (post 183, 189), he actually made some sort of contribution to the game (unlike vamp):

Um, my authority as a scumhunter. If you're town, why would you have a reason to not answer my question?

I was actually going to answer your question after the second time you asked it. That was until I got to the post where you voted for me because I didn't answer your question. It doesn't set well with me when people try to enforce their ways on me. If I wanted to comment on the scumminess of strife and/or armix I would. I don't need you to ask me silly questions about which one I find scummier. If you care to elaborate on your feelings for people and request others share as well then very well, but don't demand an answer and then vote someone because they don't give you an answer. That is stupid.

So, why say:

You ask us which we think is scummiest yet there is no case against Strife so how could I possibly decide right now?

when you obviously

had

decided who you thought was scummier?

At the time I made that statement (which was in the beginning of the game) I didn't find either one of them scummy enough to vote. The people who were pushing their lynches were scummier. You bring it up now knowing full well that much more scum hunting has been going on, so that statement is not even relevant now.

He disagreed with the 'who's scummier, Armix or Strife' page 1 thing Rofl tried to pull, IAUN disagreed with it. His argument was that IAUN was pushing crap logic in his attacks, even if it wasn't put all that elegantly.

Greasy contributed a little and was actually sort of playing the game.

C) So multiple people saying Vamp would be a good vig makes me a good lynch? First, I'm not Vamp, I'm just his role. Second, lynching is WAAAAY different from vigging. Third, town can't pick the wrong kill? Assuming I'm scum because some people want me dead? You gotta be kidding me.

Nice family straw men you got there.

Multiple people saying Vamp is a good vig makes it a town decision, which makes vig-directing much more pro-town. Again, this is the 'undermining the majority' thing. At the time I said it, it wasn't known IAUN was scum, so it was a much weaker point. Now it's much stronger because we know he's scum, and that his motivations obviously weren't in the town's best interests. It's possible he was acting townie and thought he would seem pro-town with suggesting the GS vig. It's possible he was acting scummy and trying to get a bigger threat NK'd (and if that's your argument, you're completely backtracking and saying that his redirection WAS scummy). It's also possible that he was scum trying to protect a buddy, which is a pretty damned good point.

D) Him suggesting vigging the guy hounding him and trying to get him lynched instead of the lurker is defending the lurker? Or is it attacking the guy TRYING TO GET HIM LYNCHED? I mean, wow, how weak a case can you get.

Indirect defense - see above. Town says one thing, scum hints at another.
Nobody was following GS's reasoning, so IAUN was under no real threat from him.



I do admit that it seems unlike you to outwardly priase a scumbuddy, but I'm unconvinced that you felt IAUN's defense was worth the praise you gave it. Your reasoning is cloudy and I'm having a hard time believing you really thought what IAUN did was pro-town.

[strife220]

Do you even have a case on me or was I screwed before I even read the thread?

You must not replace into games often. D1 actions are the place to go to when players flip scum later. Sorry you can't defend yourself more. If you're town, then contribute as best you can by trying to find scum. You think Armix is scum - who else is a good candidate?

[strife220]

I don't get BM's point at all. Armix said he wanted to wait for Muerrto's analysis before considering the hammer. I would have considered it scummy for him to hammer without letting Muerrto have a final say, regardless of what Muerrto flipped.

[strife220]

I thought that was hammer.

Pretty sure I'm already voting him too. Like 4 people made "need to catch up, I promise" posts, but I have a feeling we're be waiting forever for them to post new content. If I wasn't voting, I'd hammer (if he wasn't hammered already)

[strife220]

EBWOP:


Muerrto - (4) {strife220, StrangerCoug, forbiddanlight, orangepenguin}

Korts - (1) {armix}

The Fonz - (1) {roflcopter}

Not Voting: {Korts, Muerrto, Iron Man, ting =), silence, The Fonz, Battle Mage}.


That was the last vote count, like 4 pages ago. Only 3 votes I noticed since then; Armix and Muerrto voting each other, and Korts's vote on Muerrto. So yea, L-1

[strife220]

This again?

[strife220]

Farside, you killed Armix, correct? Meaning scum didn't get a kill off.

[strife220]

Farside, you killed Armix, correct? Meaning scum didn't get a kill off.

How on planet Earth did you mistake me for farside22!?

Because I'm an idiot.


Fonz and Korts are at the top of my re-read list right now.

[strife220]

I'm still here, I just really don't want to re-read 42 pages. Hopefully will get a free few hours by the weekend.

[strife220]

Back from L/A
I did a quick reread on Fonz and IAUN. I completely disagree with his 'GS was clearly distancing' stance, but I don't think his stance is really a scumtell here.
IAUN I reread for trying to find connections, and I saw lots of Korts voting there that didn't seem much like bussing to me. Maybe 'scum was voting him' isn't a great reason to give him townie points, but that's the vibe I got.

Vote definitely needs to go somewhere, so I'm going to

Vote: BM

. I think his case against Armix for allowing Muerrto to respond was contrived. His predecessor, Jordan, had suspicion quite wildly all over the place D1 as well.

[strife220]

I don't really see why the only cases recently have been on supposed bussing that may or may not be true, which is why I haven't bothered in voting for either choices as of now.

So you're only going to assess other's cases for choosing your vote? There's still lots of time left in the day and tons of people in the game... anybody should be able to come up with a at least half decent suspect.

[strife220]

Unofficial vote count:

Korts

- (3) {StrangerCoug, roflcopter, forbiddanlight}

BM

- (1) {Strife}

Not Voting: {Korts, orangepenguin, Iron Man, ting =), silence, The Fonz, Battle Mage}.

With 11 alive it's 6 to lynch.

8 days until deadline... everybody should have their votes out

[strife220]

I still think BM is a pretty good lynch and people should consider him in more detail.

But deadline in 5 days - Korts is obviously the call

Unvote, Vote: Korts

That's L-1, I think. Claim or die.

[strife220]

Unvote

If Korts is lying I don't see a need for the real doc to claim today. But we should keep in mind that just because there was a no-kill last night doesn't confirm there's a 2nd doc.

I don't actually like the case against the Fonz.

Vote: BM

Unofficial vote count:
Fonz - 1 (Ting)
BM - 1 (Strife)
4 days til deadline.

[strife220]

Otherwise, the Fonz case is not much more than misrepresentation and semantics; I'm looking at strife right now, he seems to be implying that we don't have much choice other than a BM/Fonz/Korts lynch...

unvote, vote: strife

There's 4 days left to deadline and we need to rack somebody up to claim fast. Of course I'm going to suggest people join bandwagons instead of start their own.
Example: Right now we have 4 different people with 1 or 2 votes each. If people aren't more active, we're going to accidentally no lynch.
*Edit: Just noticed read the deadline rules. Sorry, I assumed no majority = no lynch*

It was probably necessary, to prevent a lynch, but the way he said it sounded pretty bad. (CLAIM OR DIE) Not sure if that's enough to warrant a vote.

That's sort of a catch phrase on mafiascum. Do a search on those words and you'll find tons of people use the phrase.




I don't like the case on Ting as I really don't think GS was distancing D1. Orangepenguin is a pretty good lynch, so if it's between him and Ting or Fonz, I'll switch my vote to orangepenguin.

[strife220]

EBWOP:

I'm looking at strife right now, he seems to be implying that we don't have much choice other than a BM/Fonz/Korts lynch...

Wait... where did I imply that? Quote please...

[strife220]

@strife:

Unvote

If Korts is lying I don't see a need for the real doc to claim today. But we should keep in mind that just because there was a no-kill last night doesn't confirm there's a 2nd doc.

I don't actually like the case against the Fonz.

Vote: BM

This post, particularly the last quoted line gave me the impression that you won't be likely to consider any other wagons. You mention me in reference to a possible counterclaim, you mention dislike of the Fonz case, and you vote BM. But if you are only listing the wagons you would like to join, why mention Fonz, when you state you don't like the case against him? And if you are listing all cases made recently, why leave ting out, when Fonz and now StrangerCoug obviously have a pretty detailed one?

Also, please explain your vote on BM. If this is a lurkerhunt, how is it pro-town right before deadline?

Nobody was voting Ting at the time I made that post. I believe it's important to join bandwagons near deadline, but I didn't want to join the Fonz one because I think he's more likely town than scum, so I hoped to start my own. After his bandwagon started (a few posts ago), I explicitly commented that I didn't want to join that one either.
Why wouldn't I state my opinion on the only player with votes (besides a claimed doc) near deadline?

I have no idea what you're accusing me of in my BM vote. If you think I'm just making a completely random vote, you haven't been paying attention, since I was voting for BM for the majority of this day - see my earlier posts.

[strife220]

Remember that a vote for Ting is a vote for Greasy Spot. If you think he's scum, you have to think Greasy spot and IAUN were distancing D1. I really don't think that's true.

2 days until deadline. My lynch preference (for those with votes) goes BM > Orange Penguin > Ting > No Lynch.

[strife220]

Because of how over-the-top it was. Somebody else said it well earlier - the argument was bordering on personal. Ting's case was also much easier for me to accept than Fonz's in the "Ting vs Fonz" case.

[strife220]

More last minute everyone bussing someone who is somewhat likely scum please.

Mod: Exactly what time is deadline? And if there are people who need proddings, please prod. There must be a few.

[strife220]

More last minute everyone bussing someone who is somewhat likely scum please.

I am already voting Korts. Why, is there a reason to believe he's town?

There's no need to lynch a claimed doc at this point, even if you think he's lying.

Vote: Deadline extension

If we get it, please lets not waste it. Nobody should use the excuse 'well, I think he's town, but I'll vote him anyway because of deadline'

[strife220]

Yep this is pretty ridiculous.

[strife220]

So, Uh... Deadline in 2 days

[strife220]

I only unvoted because I was hoping there would be more discussion in the week the mod very graciously gave us. But no one could be bothered, so in the end I have to go back to

Vote Ting

protecting Korts.

Why not vote Fonz or BM, who also have votes on them?

[strife220]

I only unvoted because I was hoping there would be more discussion in the week the mod very graciously gave us. But no one could be bothered, so in the end I have to go back to

Vote Ting

protecting Korts.

Why not vote Fonz or BM, who also have votes on them?

BM doesn't have enough votes. I don't think the Fonz does either, and I'm not sure he's the play either :S.

It's still 2 days until deadline, and Korts isn't actually highly likely to get lynched. Voting to 'protect' him right now is BS - vote someone you think is scum, and if it gets closer to deadline and Korts is the vote leader, then vote appropriately.

[strife220]

If BM hasn't posted in a while, he should probably be prodded/replaced. I agree that he has offered little to nothing and "coasted", even though it's likely he thought he was done and Jordan was coming back. The only thing I remember from Jordan was he was trying to pass off a Tin (me) and Blakadder scum team, when Blakadder flipped town, so that retarded case on his part. I don't think we should lynch somebody (ting) just so we can save Korts. If we want to save Korts, then the people voting him should unvote (skitzer, TS). That seems like the easiest solution, instead of voting someone that you don't feel is scum, but you'd rather lynch them than the doctor.

Fos: skitzer, TS

, btw. By now, unless we get a counter-claim, it's safe to assume that he's telling the truth. (unless we have no doctor, which would also explain no counter claim)

TS thinks Korts is scum, and seems to intend to keep his vote in place. Skitzer I have no idea.

This game has 0-2 docs. One is already dead. Korts has claimed doc. Not having a counter-claim doesn't really say much about Korts' alignment. But that doesn't really matter today, since there's no big need to lynch a claimed doc.


Orangepenguin, as far as I can tell from your post history, you aren't voting anyone right now. This makes you part of the problem. Please find someone you think is higher than statistically likely to be scum and vote for them.

[strife220]

FYI, I'd switch my vote to Fonz or Orange to avoid a Ting or Korts lynch.

[strife220]

FYI, I'd switch my vote to Fonz or Orange to avoid a Ting or Korts lynch.

Why would you defend ting?

Because I don't think he's scum, as I've discussed 2 or 3 times already.

[strife220]

So if Ting dies and flips town, what conclusion are you going to make tomorrow?

[strife220]

So if Ting dies and flips town, what conclusion are you going to make tomorrow?

I seriously don't know yet. I'm gonna reread the whole ting-Fonz argument with the knowledge that ting believed he was right.

Saying that we should lynch one or the other today heavily implies that one or the other must be scum. The argument between the two is tiring, but only distracting if town focuses on it. Almost everyone's been ignoring it until recently, when you claimed doc and everybody decided Ting would be lynched simply because Fonz was already voting him.

Unvote, Vote: Orangepenguin

because I'm the only one voting BM at this point.
That's two votes Orangepenguin, 3 votse Ting. Deadline's in a few hours so if anybody on the Ting-wagon wants to switch to Penguin, he will be the lynch.

[strife220]

The case is that Ting is unlikely scum, therefore, lynching someone that isn't Ting > lynching Ting.

[strife220]

And you choose OP based solely on number of votes, right?

Basically. Orangepenguin has contributed very little to the game, while Ting has been relatively active and I believe GS's argument with IAUN is a towntell.

[strife220]

As I said, I don't see the case on orangepenguin. If orangepenguin gets lynched instead of ting =), the latter is getting vigged instead of silence, i.e. ting =) will

NOT

live to see tomorrow if I can help it. That's final.

Actually, that's not final. I think it's better to have this as a plan:

• If anybody other than ting =) and strife220 gets lynched, I'm killing ting =) tonight and voting strife220 tomorrow.
  
• If ting =) dies and flips scum, strife220 is my vig target.
  
• If ting =) dies and flips town (which I doubt), silence will remain my vig target and strife220 is cleared of my suspicion, at least for the time being.

strife220 is simply buddying up to ting =) more than my liking.

HoS: strife220

So, you've actually

read

the GreasySpot-IAUN interaction from Day 1 and really think it's distancing? Please go read it again...

[strife220]

Sigh. Hope you guys are right. But regardless, I'm appalled at how this lynch actually developed. First it was "well, don't wanna lynch a claimed doc, so might as well vote someone for no good reason!" Then people somehow convinced themselves that Ting must be scum because his predecessor voted scum D1?

But I don't think either of them are scum :S.

Who DO you think is scum?

But I don't think either of them are scum :S.

Here's a good reason: I think one of my suspects, strife220, is trying to deflect votes off ting =) and on orangepenguin for very weak reasoning; therefore I think the former two are scumbuddies. ting =) must be dead for that to be proven.

Didn't you just say you thought I was buddying up to Ting, implying I'm scum and Ting's a townie?

Here's a good reason: I think one of my suspects, strife220, is trying to deflect votes off ting =) and on orangepenguin for very weak reasoning; therefore I think the former two are scumbuddies. ting =) must be dead for that to be proven.

Well, whatever. Since, you are the vig and Ting will die no matter what it seems, and I really don't feel strongly about either case...and I DO want silence dead, I will

Vote Ting =)

Firstly, if OrangePenguin flips scum, I don't think SC will be vigging Ting.
Secondly, I presume you want silence dead because he isn't contributing? Silence has a posting rate of 0.3 posts per day on mafiascum, so his lack of contribution isn't surprising, making it a 100% lurker-lynch. Orangepenguin hasn't been a whole lot better when you read his posts closely. He's much more active on the site but has spent most of his time in this game apologizing for not posting more, making false promises of improved contributions, etc. His only real contribution has been hopping on the mislynch wagons (Blakadder, Muerrto, and I believe now, Ting).

The only thing Ting has done to deserve to be lynched is his predecessor attacked scum early D1 for a poor reason.

[strife220]

5 townies, 3 scum alive = lylo.

Korts, who did you protect last night?

[strife220]

Slow game

Can we mass-claim and get that over with?


My guess is a Korts/Penguin/Farside trio. I'd like to see Penguin lynched today most of all, I think.

[strife220]

Vanilla here

[strife220]

silence's vote on orangepenguin with little and the former ending up being the cop makes me suspect the latter right now, but that's all I have on him that seems to have much bearing at the moment.

I doubt he would have kept a guilty like that to himself. The vote does mean that he didn't receive an innocent on him, making him statistically more likely to be scum (assuming Silence was investigating others).

[strife220]

TS, you were pretty much confirmed since Day 1, since the first couple of threads. We're just waiting on the people who haven't claimed now.

Everyone's claimed. Nothing new but a bunch of vanillas

[strife220]

6 days to deadline. Lets lynch Farside or Penguin.

[strife220]

orangepenguin hasn't been appealing to emotion, but he hasn't been contributing enough to my liking either, which was one of the conditions he had to meet if he wanted to stay alive.

Vote: orangepenguin

After the next vote count, I'm going to hop on this wagon.

[strife220]

Wait, I thought SC was in there too. Rereading, it's just the Fonz and fl (besides me).

unvote

What?

[strife220]

EBWOP:

Vote: OP

L-2. If he doesn't get quicklynched, then OP is scum or Forbiddenlight and I must be scum together.

[strife220]

1. Do you believe Korts is town?

Nope

[strife220]

If Korts is scum, then that means he probably opted not to kill me Night 2 to make it look like he protected me.

Good example why vig's should try their best to hide intentions. N3 more-so than N2 though.


Just realized that, if Korts is actually doc, we aren't in lylo. If we mislynch, SC still gets to make a kill. If he hits scum, it's 2 scum, 3 townies left.

[strife220]

What's the case against me being doc, for clarity?

You're alive. And by keeping doc-you alive, scum is unable to kill our confirmed vig, who will now definitely make it to end-game as a very powerful ally.

Also I've had you as a top candidate since the middle of D1, but I don't remember why anymore.



*Checks first page*
Do we know why there was no kill N2?

[strife220]

deadline in 48 hours. Can we lynch OP now?

[strife220]

Well, now we can confidently lynch scum.


On the very very very slim chance that OP is telling the truth, SC Vig's Korts tonight.

[strife220]

Okay... After OP's claim yesterday I think I'm more or less confirmed

Right... clearly OP was hoping town was stupid enough to immediately reverse their lynch at the very last minute


I still think it's Korts/Farside. OP couldn't have seriously intended to get Korts lynched yesterday, so pretending to counter-claim his partner for when he flips town makes lots of sense.

[strife220]

Well okay, so now I'm convinced that strife is one of the two scum

Why, besides OMGUS?

[strife220]

My reread of the first quarter or so of the game gave me town vibes from strife220, but the fact that he's still trying to pin suspicion on a confirmed doc doesn't look right. If the doc gets lynched today, it's a given that I die tonight.

Vote: strife220

It's LYLO SC. If town-Korts gets lynched today, we lose. If I'm town, then scum can quicklynch and we lose. There is no benefit to me-scum trying to get town-Korts lynched over another town.

You've been pushing the notion of me not being doc with far too big conviction. Occam's razor is, in my irrelevant opinion, applicable here. Which do you think is likelier, me being doc and OP trying a last-ditch attempt at saving his ass, or OP counterclaiming and trying to bus one of his two remaining scumbuddies in a last-ditch attempt at saving his ass?

Given OP should have known there was 0 chance of turning the lynch around, I don't consider it a bus attempt - it's distancing. Given SC's blind faith in your assessment, I think it worked.


SC - why oh why would scum let the doc live this long? Why would OP - who was L-1 with 48 hours left from the deadline - counterclaim a townie at that point?

[strife220]

Do you think there is a second doc?

Nope
Are you going to argue that no kill N2 proves there was a doc? It's an awkward point to argue against. However, given how much suspicion you were under D1, setting yourself up for a fake-claim makes sense. It also doesn't make much sense for scum to target the confirmed vig when there was a good chance of being a doc alive.

[strife220]

Re-reading to re-assess my confidence on Fonz and Farside's alignment:

You're at lynch -2, and you can sure as hell be willing to believe i'll support your lynch on lurkerhating grounds if you continue as you are. So, IF you're town, you've got very little to lose. Read. Work out who your public enemy number one is. And then explain why. We'll probably lynch you anyway- but at least you might be able to shed some light on the situation.

This was said to OP. Fonz, given we were just about in lylo, what was your intention with this comment?

[strife220]

WIFOM does not mean the point should be dismissed.
SC, please at least unvote me until you re-read me in full. Base your vote on a player as a whole and not just the actions in most recent memory.
And who do you think my partner is?
And .. why is me thinking Korts is scum indicative of me being scum? It's lylo and BM and Fonz would both be easier targets for me-scum. You not agreeing with my argument doesn't mean I have to be scum. Think about motivations. You're being reckless here by not thinking things through.

[strife220]

Why would BM and Fonz be better targets?

Because our confirmed player (SC) thinks you're town. And Farside stated yesterday that she thinks you're town. And Fonz (as far as I can see) hasn't made ANY comment on what he thinks of your alignment. Of the 3 people that questioned your alignment, 2 of them (1 scum, 1 town) are now dead.

I wasn't under more than moderate suspicion D1.

I recall this quote being made D1:

Wake me up when I have to claim.

On going back to it, I see you were still far from a lynch, but at that point you had the most votes on you (4).

do you really think you're going to WIFOM your way out of this by saying the scum would calculate in the possible existence of a second doc?

If I was in a game that had a 50:50 chance of there being a doc alive, I wouldn't take the risk to send in a night-kill on the obvious doc-protect target. Maybe some disagree, but my point is very valid.

Let me lend you a decent counter-argument to my point. Would Korts-scum send in a no-kill with the intention of fake claiming a doc protect when he didn't know if there was a second doc in the game?
That's the one point that makes me less confident about Korts' alignment. But I still think OP's counter-claim yesterday and the fact that he's still alive are stronger strikes against him.

[strife220]

You've been pushing the notion of me not being doc with far too big conviction. Occam's razor is, in my irrelevant opinion, applicable here. Which do you think is likelier, me being doc and OP trying a last-ditch attempt at saving his ass, or OP counterclaiming and trying to bus one of his two remaining scumbuddies in a last-ditch attempt at saving his ass?

So, I'm scum because I'm pressing that you're scum despite clearly having no one on my side?

[strife220]

I asked why you thought I was scum (besides OMGUS)
and your answer, as far as I can tell, is OMGUS

[strife220]

Do I really have any other option right now? Obviously I can't judge this from an objective angle, but your apparent confidence in me not being doc is too great considering the situation here. Your proof of me not being doc doesn't amount to much more than WIFOM. If I say you're suspicious for this, you mean to imply it's just OMGUS?

By OMGUS I mean the vote is based on nothing more than my attacks on you. There's a whole lot of other content in the game. Did my defense of Ting look like buddying? Did my attacks on OP and IAUN look like bussing? Can you see me being scum with either Farside (who I really wanted lynched a day or two ago) or Fonz (who I've explicitly stated earlier that I didn't want lynched)? If so, which one? Is there one that I'm clearly Not partnered with?
You keep saying I have confidence that you're not the doc. This is a twist of words. I picked you out as most likely scum on D1 and haven't wavered much from that stance. I don't believe your doc claim saves you. So I'm not 'confident you're not the doc,' I'm 'confident you're scum.' You think I'm scum because I'm confident you're scum = OMGUS.
Could you please re-read me before you make such bold statements about my alignment?

@Both Korts and SC - There are two other (relatively inactive) players in the game. At least one of them is scum (unless it's a strife/korts scum-team). BM's (now Farside) play was unusual for him. Fonz spent most of the game screaming back and forth with Ting. Should be worthwhile to try and pick out the scum team.

[strife220]

Running the numbers, if Korts' claim is genuine, then scum HAVE to get him lynched today, or the best they can do is a draw.

I don't understand how this is true. If Korts is town and lynched today, scum win regardless of SC's night action since 1 town + 1 scum = scum win. If Korts is town and we mislynch someone else, scum kills Korts tonight for the scum win.

If Korts claim is genuine and we mislynch today, scum win. Unless Korts can protect himself, which I doubt since the doc PM doesn't say he can.

I will pay anyone to go thru and give me an analysis on each player. Please?

SC = confirmed vig

Korts = claimed doc on D3 (i think). There was no scum nightkill N2, and he claims it's because he protected SC. The next two nights has scum killing masons instead of the claimed doc, putting us in the situation we're in now with a confirmed vig and unconfirmed doc. OP (scum) was lynched yesterday and as a last-ditch effort to either distance scum or mislynch town, OP claimed to be the real doc.

Fonz - Spent the entire game writing essays about how GreasySpot (replaced by Ting, confirmed town) was obv-scum. Honestly all I can recall about his play.

Me - Instigated Muerrto's mislynch. Strongly opposed Ting's mislynch. (I think) Instigated OP's lynch. Thinks Korts is the most likely scum, despite his doc claim.

[strife220]

A living vig is a pretty big something to prevent it being the case. If it goes to 1-1 and both can kill, it's a draw.

... Really?

Mod, confirm?

[strife220]

Why do you believe that Korts is lying. Don't you think the whole discussion is just WIFOM at this point?

If you rephrase your question to "why do you believe Korts is scum?" then I think I've already answered it. See my attacks earlier in the game (and everyone elses; he got to L-1 for a reason), + I don't think he'd be alive if he were town.

[strife220]

Willing to switch to strife at deadline. The BM case doesn't seem to be more than 'has gone inactive.' We have another method to deal with that, if you catch my drift.

What was your drift?

[strife220]

Are you saying Korts being alive is a null tell Farside?

Like I said I think that is WIFOM. Why as why?

... What?

If it isn't you, it has to be the other two, therefore it makes sense to take a long, hard look at Farside-Strife, and see how much sense that specific scumpair makes, and then to use that information to re-evaluate Korts.

I believe I tried pretty hard to get BM (Farside's predecessor) lynched for the past 2 days. You should be able to go over that quickly to decide if you think it was bussing, distancing, or legit.

Willing to switch to strife at deadline. The BM case doesn't seem to be more than 'has gone inactive.' We have another method to deal with that, if you catch my drift.

What was your drift?

That the inactive BM/Jordan role would make a pretty good vig target, obviously.

Just wanted to make sure. This is actually a very relevant comment, as it's not something I'd expect scum-partners to do in order to distance.

[strife220]

I could see the scum using it to cause a mislynch. I think it is a better idea to lynch a vanilla townie claim then a doc claim. I don't care for the way you keep pushing it either.

A claimed doc and a claimed vanilla have the exact same value in LYLO. We should be lynching who we think is scum. Unless a mislynch on a vanilla means a draw, in which case there may be other factors worth considering.

Precisely. It's unusual that the nokill happened if Korts is untruthful, but it's also weird he's still alive if he is.

So basically, we should stop the WIFOM at the second iteration and try, YOU KNOW, ACTUALLY READING PEOPLE'S POSTS AND LOOKING FOR CONNECTIONS BETWEEN OTHER PLAYERS.

Agreed. Which is why I'm getting annoyed with people asking me 'why don't you believe the doc claim?' Korts was my #1 lynch target on D1. That switched to Muerrto D2, but was back to Korts D3 and on. There was lots of material on 'why Korts is scum' that doesn't involve the doc claim.

Strife deadline-jumps Korts, which I can see working any of a number of ways- as scum trying to lynch a townie, as a townie trying to avoid a no-lynch, or as scum thinking he has to bus.

I'm not sure exactly what day you're talking about, but again, I've been anti-Korts all game.

Heck, I'd say your would-have-to-be-a-bus attacks on OP are more likely to indicate innocence than your relations to Farside.

I was more dead-set on a BM lynch than I was the OP lynch at the time. Maybe is didn't seem as such in my arguments, but I thought the BM lynch should have been a fairly obvious choice when I was pushing his death.

[strife220]

You seem anxious for Fonz to get over evaluating a strife-farside pairing and move on to the much more important task of mislynching me.

If we're obviously not a pair (up to him to decide), then it should be an easy decision for him, no?

[strife220]

Unless a mislynch on a vanilla means a draw, in which case there may be other factors worth considering.

Enlighten me here.

Written from my perspective (i.e. me town + korts scum).
If Fonz is correct, an end-game with a vig + scum is a draw. If town values a draw significantly more than a loss, then there is a slightly greater risk of lynching Korts. If there's a 33% chance of Korts, Farside, and Fonz being town, then we should try to lynch Farside or Fonz, since if we're wrong, we can still draw if Korts is telling the truth. The question then becomes 'how much better is a draw than a loss,' and 'how much More likely do I think Korts is scum over Farside or Fonz.'

There was lots of material on 'why Korts is scum' that doesn't involve the doc claim.

Any of it post-claim material?

Most of the post-claim material revolves around the claim. I'm not a fan of his attacks on me at the end of day...3? Sept 11-13 right before deadline with this case:

Otherwise, the Fonz case is not much more than misrepresentation and semantics; I'm looking at strife right now, he seems to be implying that we don't have much choice other than a BM/Fonz/Korts lynch...

unvote, vote: strife

which he flip-flopped on fairly quickly to a Ting vote when he had no support.



I think this argument was horrible:

I definitely think that what ting's saying is true, one of either ting or Fonz should be the lynch today, because until their argument is eliminated, town won't be even making an effort to scumhunt. I'd rather not switch to BM (now farside) though, seeing as he'd been replaced now. If it comes to it, I'm pretty happy with either Fonz or ting, since I'm not convinced either way.

That's a terrible justification for the townie (Ting) lynch. It's also a point towards a Fonz-Korts scumpair since when he said this, Ting was the obvious lynch choice, and he never implied that one of those 2 must be scum.

However in Korts defense here, he did almost change the lynch from Ting to OP in this post:

And you choose OP based solely on number of votes, right?

Well, I can go for that, too. This game needs a kick in the balls.

unvote, vote: orangepenguin

[strife220]

I'm town.
If Korts is scum, town loses. So the thing to assume here is that the team is Farside/Fonz. SC should vig one of those two and Korts should protect SC. If Korts is telling the truth, we tie (by Fonz's argument). If Korts is scum, we lose. There's no way for us to win at this point.

[strife220]

Why would you not shoot? If Korts is scum, we lose whether you shoot or not. If Korts is town, we lose if you don't shoot. Therefore - shoot Farside or Fonz.

[strife220]

Good game all.

Sorry Korts! Guess there are scum out there that are willing to keep the doctor alive.
I was second guessing myself quite frequently until I saw that post by Fonz, where he subtly implies BM (I think?) should get vigged. I guess it was his way of deflecting BM from getting lynched without looking like protecting a partner.

Interested to hear why scum chose to kill off the masons instead of the doc/vig. Did you think SC was more likely to work to your advantage - killing townies?

[strife220]

So scum accidentally no-killed N2?
I couldn't come up with any logical reason for there to be no kill. Korts-scum didn't make sense, nor did Fonz-Farside scum. I guess simple accidents are always possible.