Open 81 - The New C9 - Game Over

[strife220]

Why do you believe that Korts is lying. Don't you think the whole discussion is just WIFOM at this point?

If you rephrase your question to "why do you believe Korts is scum?" then I think I've already answered it. See my attacks earlier in the game (and everyone elses; he got to L-1 for a reason), + I don't think he'd be alive if he were town.

[strife220]

Willing to switch to strife at deadline. The BM case doesn't seem to be more than 'has gone inactive.' We have another method to deal with that, if you catch my drift.

What was your drift?

[StrangerCoug]

Let's give strife220 some company, shall we?

As I said, I need to review Korts, especially after his claim.

[farside22]

Why do you believe that Korts is lying. Don't you think the whole discussion is just WIFOM at this point?

If you rephrase your question to "why do you believe Korts is scum?" then I think I've already answered it. See my attacks earlier in the game (and everyone elses; he got to L-1 for a reason), + I don't think he'd be alive if he were town.

I can see scum trying to use this bait to get a townie lynched and I'm not biting. Like I said I think that is WIFOM. Why as why?

Fos: Strife

[The Fonz]

So, I'm scum because I'm pressing that you're scum despite clearly having no one on my side?

Not a good argument.

, and my most recent reread on you came off as town, which means that, if I'm right, the scum pair is either The Fonz and farside22 or The Fonz and Korts.

Why? I mean, name one thing any of the holders of that role have done to draw attention to themselves...

The Fonz, the lack of a Mafia nightkill is what I think confirms him. Since the Mafia kills after that seem to want to stop making sense to me, I'm having second thoughts at this time.

I can see the mafia nokilling to set up a doc claim. Or I could see lurker mafia failing to send in a kill at all. In isolation, it's most likely that it was a genuine docblock- but then, it's also likely that a genuine doc claimant dies by now.

If it isn't Korts, it's farside-strife

You apparently being a vanilla, this is the only thing you could say as to your suspicions, so why say it? If it isn't me (it isn't), SC is confirmed, and it's two scum out of three, so naturally everyone would be pointing at the other two. I can't phrase why that seems scummy to me to state.

Precisely because it's the only other possible scumpair? I'm not seeing your problem here. If it isn't you, it has to be the other two, therefore it makes sense to take a long, hard look at Farside-Strife, and see how much sense that specific scumpair makes, and then to use that information to re-evaluate Korts. Because, by the same token, if it's not those two together, it has to be you. Basically, we're down to three possible scumpairs from the position of everone but SC, so the obvious thing to do it to take a look at each potential grouping, and look at their interactions, which is what i'm going to do next time i log on, assuming there hasn't been another several pages of posts i need to respond to.

Willing to switch to strife at deadline. The BM case doesn't seem to be more than 'has gone inactive.' We have another method to deal with that, if you catch my drift.

What was your drift?

That the inactive BM/Jordan role would make a pretty good vig target, obviously.

[strife220]

Are you saying Korts being alive is a null tell Farside?

Like I said I think that is WIFOM. Why as why?

... What?

If it isn't you, it has to be the other two, therefore it makes sense to take a long, hard look at Farside-Strife, and see how much sense that specific scumpair makes, and then to use that information to re-evaluate Korts.

I believe I tried pretty hard to get BM (Farside's predecessor) lynched for the past 2 days. You should be able to go over that quickly to decide if you think it was bussing, distancing, or legit.

Willing to switch to strife at deadline. The BM case doesn't seem to be more than 'has gone inactive.' We have another method to deal with that, if you catch my drift.

What was your drift?

That the inactive BM/Jordan role would make a pretty good vig target, obviously.

Just wanted to make sure. This is actually a very relevant comment, as it's not something I'd expect scum-partners to do in order to distance.

[Korts]

I believe I tried pretty hard to get BM (Farside's predecessor) lynched for the past 2 days. You should be able to go over that quickly to decide if you think it was bussing, distancing, or legit.

You seem anxious for Fonz to get over evaluating a strife-farside pairing and move on to the much more important task of mislynching me.

Willing to switch to strife at deadline. The BM case doesn't seem to be more than 'has gone inactive.' We have another method to deal with that, if you catch my drift.

What was your drift?

That the inactive BM/Jordan role would make a pretty good vig target, obviously.

Just wanted to make sure. This is actually a very relevant comment, as it's not something I'd expect scum-partners to do in order to distance.

Very fair point, thank you. This, and the previous quote, makes me think a farside-strife pairing is more probable.

Precisely because it's the only other possible scumpair? I'm not seeing your problem here. If it isn't you, it has to be the other two, therefore it makes sense to take a long, hard look at Farside-Strife, and see how much sense that specific scumpair makes, and then to use that information to re-evaluate Korts. Because, by the same token, if it's not those two together, it has to be you.

I think my problem was that you stated the obvious like it was a revelation of some sort. I don't see right now how that was a problem in particular, but oh well.

[farside22]

Are you saying Korts being alive is a null tell Farside?

Like I said I think that is WIFOM. Why as why?

... What?

Should say why ask why.

I could see the scum using it to cause a mislynch. I think it is a better idea to lynch a vanilla townie claim then a doc claim. I don't care for the way you keep pushing it either.

[StrangerCoug]

Happy scumday farside22.

I like Korts's most recent post, but that's all for now. I know I've been keeping quiet, but the last thing we want is a mislynch.

[farside22]

Happy scumday farside22.

I like Korts's most recent post, but that's all for now. I know I've been keeping quiet, but the last thing we want is a mislynch.

Thanks!

I think the scum pair are strife and fonz. They are both pushing the doc not being killed issue. It is WIFOM. That is what the mafia like to do.

[Korts]

farside, Fonz isn't really pushing the issue that I wasn't killed, he just said that that may be a point against me. It's WIFOM, yes, but it takes mafia with spunk to leave the doc alive. And I hate spunk.

BTW, happy scumday

[farside22]

farside, Fonz isn't really pushing the issue that I wasn't killed, he just said that that may be a point against me. It's WIFOM, yes, but it takes mafia with spunk to leave the doc alive. And I hate spunk.

BTW, happy scumday

Ah I read this by Fonz and I saw it as wishy washy. Sorry not pushing the case. Just like eluding

I can see the mafia nokilling to set up a doc claim. Or I could see lurker mafia failing to send in a kill at all. In isolation, it's most likely that it was a genuine docblock- but then, it's also likely that a genuine doc claimant dies by now.

[Korts]

I can't blame him for not committing to a side on the subject, it's not like it isn't, you know, circular logic.

[The Fonz]

Precisely. It's unusual that the nokill happened if Korts is untruthful, but it's also weird he's still alive if he is.

So basically, we should stop the WIFOM at the second iteration and try, YOU KNOW, ACTUALLY READING PEOPLE'S POSTS AND LOOKING FOR CONNECTIONS BETWEEN OTHER PLAYERS.

[The Fonz]

I don't get BM's point at all. Armix said he wanted to wait for Muerrto's analysis before considering the hammer. I would have considered it scummy for him to hammer without letting Muerrto have a final say, regardless of what Muerrto flipped.

This is strife's first mention of the Jordan/BM/Farside role- he never mentions Jordan. There's not much in this one, except that 'I don't understand your point' can easily be 'your point doesn't make sense' when you're looking for an excuse to attack someone. So strife wasn't, at this point.

Vote definitely needs to go somewhere, so I'm going to

Vote: BM

. I think his case against Armix for allowing Muerrto to respond was contrived. His predecessor, Jordan, had suspicion quite wildly all over the place D1 as well.

There's the obvious 'why did you not mention it at the time' factor here, both with Jordan (didn't mention) and BM (didn't phrase accusingly, rather, as if BM had laid out his argument confusingly or something).

Strife deadline-jumps Korts, which I can see working any of a number of ways- as scum trying to lynch a townie, as a townie trying to avoid a no-lynch, or as scum thinking he has to bus.

Once Korts wagon goes down, goes to BM as alternative lynch, then also stresses willingness to vote me, or OP, to preserve Korts/Ting.

Switches to OP at deadline.


I don't see this 'hardcore bussing of BM' that Strife seems to be postulating. It's a luxury of scum to be able to vote for their partners with deadline impending- and it's telling, in that respect, that you return to

Heck, I'd say your would-have-to-be-a-bus attacks on OP are more likely to indicate innocence than your relations to Farside. Then again, it was only a matter of time before the rest of the town noticed that OP hadn't said ANYTHING all game, and it looks better to get in early.

Basically, from my POV there's a few options here:

1. You have been bussing BM
2. You have been, and are currently, bussing Korts
3. Jordan/Bm/Farside and Korts decided not to bus whatsoever.

This is a really tough call. Need to look at the posts of the various holders of the farside role to see if that sheds any more light. My recollection, though, is that that role was never hardcore against anyone here, largely due to the procession of inactives.

[strife220]

I could see the scum using it to cause a mislynch. I think it is a better idea to lynch a vanilla townie claim then a doc claim. I don't care for the way you keep pushing it either.

A claimed doc and a claimed vanilla have the exact same value in LYLO. We should be lynching who we think is scum. Unless a mislynch on a vanilla means a draw, in which case there may be other factors worth considering.

Precisely. It's unusual that the nokill happened if Korts is untruthful, but it's also weird he's still alive if he is.

So basically, we should stop the WIFOM at the second iteration and try, YOU KNOW, ACTUALLY READING PEOPLE'S POSTS AND LOOKING FOR CONNECTIONS BETWEEN OTHER PLAYERS.

Agreed. Which is why I'm getting annoyed with people asking me 'why don't you believe the doc claim?' Korts was my #1 lynch target on D1. That switched to Muerrto D2, but was back to Korts D3 and on. There was lots of material on 'why Korts is scum' that doesn't involve the doc claim.

Strife deadline-jumps Korts, which I can see working any of a number of ways- as scum trying to lynch a townie, as a townie trying to avoid a no-lynch, or as scum thinking he has to bus.

I'm not sure exactly what day you're talking about, but again, I've been anti-Korts all game.

Heck, I'd say your would-have-to-be-a-bus attacks on OP are more likely to indicate innocence than your relations to Farside.

I was more dead-set on a BM lynch than I was the OP lynch at the time. Maybe is didn't seem as such in my arguments, but I thought the BM lynch should have been a fairly obvious choice when I was pushing his death.

[strife220]

You seem anxious for Fonz to get over evaluating a strife-farside pairing and move on to the much more important task of mislynching me.

If we're obviously not a pair (up to him to decide), then it should be an easy decision for him, no?

[StrangerCoug]

Unless a mislynch on a vanilla means a draw, in which case there may be other factors worth considering.

Enlighten me here.

There was lots of material on 'why Korts is scum' that doesn't involve the doc claim.

Any of it post-claim material?

[strife220]

Unless a mislynch on a vanilla means a draw, in which case there may be other factors worth considering.

Enlighten me here.

Written from my perspective (i.e. me town + korts scum).
If Fonz is correct, an end-game with a vig + scum is a draw. If town values a draw significantly more than a loss, then there is a slightly greater risk of lynching Korts. If there's a 33% chance of Korts, Farside, and Fonz being town, then we should try to lynch Farside or Fonz, since if we're wrong, we can still draw if Korts is telling the truth. The question then becomes 'how much better is a draw than a loss,' and 'how much More likely do I think Korts is scum over Farside or Fonz.'

There was lots of material on 'why Korts is scum' that doesn't involve the doc claim.

Any of it post-claim material?

Most of the post-claim material revolves around the claim. I'm not a fan of his attacks on me at the end of day...3? Sept 11-13 right before deadline with this case:

Otherwise, the Fonz case is not much more than misrepresentation and semantics; I'm looking at strife right now, he seems to be implying that we don't have much choice other than a BM/Fonz/Korts lynch...

unvote, vote: strife

which he flip-flopped on fairly quickly to a Ting vote when he had no support.



I think this argument was horrible:

I definitely think that what ting's saying is true, one of either ting or Fonz should be the lynch today, because until their argument is eliminated, town won't be even making an effort to scumhunt. I'd rather not switch to BM (now farside) though, seeing as he'd been replaced now. If it comes to it, I'm pretty happy with either Fonz or ting, since I'm not convinced either way.

That's a terrible justification for the townie (Ting) lynch. It's also a point towards a Fonz-Korts scumpair since when he said this, Ting was the obvious lynch choice, and he never implied that one of those 2 must be scum.

However in Korts defense here, he did almost change the lynch from Ting to OP in this post:

And you choose OP based solely on number of votes, right?

Well, I can go for that, too. This game needs a kick in the balls.

unvote, vote: orangepenguin

[Korts]

However in Korts defense here, he did almost change the lynch from Ting to OP in this post:

Okay, that's a town point for you. It would've been fairly easy to twist that into me bussing OP. On the other hand, if I were in your position as town and as convinced as you seem in the claimed doc lying, I'd probably twist anything I could into implicating my main suspect at this point.

A point against a strife-farside scumpair is the fact that when the game had stalled, strife switched between BM and OP. I'm not sure he'd have attempted distancing/bussing BOTH his remaining partners, although this is bordering on circular logic again.

[StrangerCoug]

After my long overdue reread on Korts, I can see how this:

Well then, it seems we have a second doctor.

Breadcrumbs this:

"Claim or die", how I hate that phrase...

Doc. Protected armlx N0, roflcopter (now TS, I think) N1, SC N2. SC is therefore confirmed.

The only way for Korts to know for sure at the time of the first post that there was a second doctor is if he was it (since the Mafia can choose not to NK).

This is setting off alarm bells, though:

This the entirety of your case? Cos I couldn't find anything else. That's pretty weak by itself.

vote: ting

Basically to save my own ass.

Voting to save your own ass? Is that pro-town?

And look at this lovely gem:

And you choose OP based solely on number of votes, right?

Well, I can go for that, too. This game needs a kick in the balls.

unvote, vote: orangepenguin

Mindless bandwagoning, is it not?

FoS: Korts

[The Fonz]

Voting to save your own ass? Is that pro-town?

Well, if you're a doctor... kinda, yes. You should generally prefer any lynch to the one of the one player you know for sure is town. So that makes perfect sense either as scum or town.

Mindless bandwagoning, is it not?

The fact that it is on a scum is relevant, though.

[Korts]

Voting to save your own ass? Is that pro-town?

Well, if you're a doctor... kinda, yes. You should generally prefer any lynch to the one of the one player you know for sure is town. So that makes perfect sense either as scum or town.

This. When there's a clear cut choice between you and another player, would you, under any circumstance, vote yourself instead of the other guy?

Mindless bandwagoning, is it not?

The fact that it is on a scum is relevant, though.

The more relevant point is the activity and amount of content being produced at that time. As I said then, and you quoted it, SC, the game needed a kickstart, because it was stalling. A wagon is at least

something

to talk about.

[Korts]

I see no point in waiting around anymore. Strife is definite scum in my eyes, and discussion's completely stalled.

vote: strife

[StrangerCoug]

Let me guess, Korts: WIFOM?