Minvitational 8 - OVER before 611

[Simenon]

Vote cicero

Vote cicero

Wagon please.[/b]

[Simenon]

I've played/modded:

erg0
The Fonz
Adel
Shanba
Oman
CKD
Billy Twilight

[Simenon]

Vote: curiouskarmadog

.

A good OMGUS to get me started in the morning.

This is not a vote for cicero.

[Simenon]

Vote: curiouskarmadog

.

A good OMGUS to get me started in the morning.

This is not a vote for cicero.

Why do you only point out Billy's vote? Do you secretly wish you could vote for Oman?

I better get the individual supporters hooked. The only way my (right) bandwagon can contend with your (wrong) bandwagon is if we have at least equal support.

Cool! Erg0 is back to his creepy skull avatar!

It's an album cover.

Cicero: please direct your efforts towards lynching cicero.

[Simenon]

Sim, any reason re: cicero?

Look at this post:

[cicero: please direct your efforts towards lynching cicero.

Devastating news, Simmy. Your bandwagon isn't right. I am town. And I suppose I could vote you for voting me with no reason, but the truth is being a cheeky bugger early in the game is probably a town tell. Time'll tell though. Why are you being a cheeky bugger? I don't like mosquitos when I'm at the beach. Know what I'm sayin'?

Look at that post. Tell me you don't want to wipe that smug satisfaction off his face.

And Shanba's on this wagon too. It's clear we're going to be lynching cicero today.

[Simenon]

It began as a joke, yes, but why do you assume that just because I was continuing to be tongue-in-cheek, it wasn't at all serious? For me at least, it stopped becomming a joke rather early. And yes, I do believe there is a difference between humorous explanations and a joke.

Currently, cicero seems to be pretty dense, especially the comments in his last post.

unvote, vote:cicero

Such a good vote.

[Simenon]

Im sorry Simenon, you'll need to actually provide reasons now.

I wouldn't if I didn't think so myself.

1. It began as a joke, what caused it to become serious?

It was never really a joke to being with, seeing as it's important to always start off a game with a bandwagon. More and more I realized that the enuthusiasm for the wagon would be able to set it off legitametly.

. Why am I scum?

Notice how I've never said you were scum in my previous post. I just said it stopped being a joke.

But what makes me believe you're scum is the fact that you just had to add in your own personal town tell in the post I cited. And the fact that you actually threatened to pretend to suspect someone vote someone unless they wised up. Either you're 80 years old or something isn't right here.

[quuote]2. What exactly do you find dense in my last post? You cant just assert that. Please educate me.[/quote]

Well if there is you should vote Simenon.

Unless I don't follow, this is a misrep.

[Simenon]

I'm probably dense like Simenon says. Explain it to me. I'm more than happy to hear arguments for why I'm wrong and Simenon is scum because he isnt very popular with my smug dense self right now.

That's the most sympathy you're getting out of me.

[Simenon]

maybe because of our generation we seem to be following the
{random voting}+{random bullshit} --> {random wagon} --> information for a serious wagon --> Day 1 lynch
recipe for how to conduct a day 1.

I wish. Unfortunately, that first random wagon gets shot down too quickly nowadays to yield any real results, at least as far as I remember. It would be great if the tide is changing.
~~~~
My posting strategy for the first few pages of a mafia game is to provoke as many people as possible into posting and responding. This is why my posts come off as being "flippant."

[Simenon]

If at that point in time you did NOT think I was scum and it was NOT a joke, what was it then?

Managing to read quotiations in context is a wonderful skill.

I've said what I was trying to do (and succeeded to do) in two posts now. I was attempting to start a wagon. In the middle of that wagon, you made a post which I thought suggested something scummy.

Other players should be careful of this tendency of Simenon's as the game continues. There's an obvious tendency to stick his finger in the air and say "ah ah ah, I never SAID what can obviously inferred, so you are ASSUMING ha ha ha". This is a device designed to allow slippery wiggle room, the refuge of scum. Don't let him.

1. Them's fighting words. How much longer are you going to imply that I'm scum while attacking someone else?
2. I've been very clear as to my intentions. You just didn't bother to go farther then one comment.

And, Simenon, I wasnt "pretending" I was going to vote him. An intercessionary event - Adel's reasonless vote - occurred. I may vote him yet at a time of my choosing. At the moment he's at 3 votes which is enough until the joke votes come off him and there is evidence that all players are engaged.

Let's try a different route, then. Would you have voted Oman in that case even if you didn't believe he was scum?

Are you articulating your own personal town tell? *Gasp* Careful. Simmy gonna getcha!

I don't care about plugging your own town tell. The issue with your post is that it seems purposefully crafted to sound like it just slipped in.

[Simenon]

Unvote
Vote Erg0

I generally associate erg0 with "large posts infrequently" rather than "fluff posts frequently."

And you will pay for removing Groucho.

[Simenon]

And I switched because it was clear to me the Cicero wagon wasn't going anywhere.

[Simenon]

And I switched because it was clear to me the Cicero wagon wasn't going anywhere.

I'm unclear on how this was clear.

The wagon didn't seem to be moving. Cicero posted something very dense and compact answering the points. More importantly, all the information that could be extracted from that wagon, except for a claim, was already there for the picking. Didn't seem worth it to continue. Fortunately, another, better wagon was waiting there. Also, while Cicero may still be scum, I don't think a wagon is going to be successful right now.

cicero/Simenon scumgroup +1

I would have ridden this wagon over Everest as soon as I spotted a weakness. And yes, that is a plug for my own scumtell, for future reference.

[Simenon]

1. Them's fighting words. How much longer are you going to imply that I'm scum while attacking someone else?

That statement seems to cut both ways. You say the cicero wagon started as a random joke wagon but "something changed" along the way. I would assume this means you became more suspicious of cicero. If that's the case why drop your vote, and why join the wagon he is pushing?

Read the reasons above. Also, cicero answered some of his points. I think it's better we shift our interest to another wagon for now. The whole point of this plan is to get as much information as possible, and that means pursuing the best wagon possible. Fifteen pages from now, we can all write our verbose analysis on the situation, but it's best to turn away from dead ends as soon as possible this stage of the game.

[Simenon]

OTOH, I seem to recall that Oman was working to eliminate that from his playstyle.

Why?

[Simenon]

What this game really needs is for somebody to do something stupid. That usually gets things rolling.

This is sluggish. You're slowing the game down, not speeding it up.
A large number of your posts in this game are, honestly, lazy. You're giving just enough "content" to get by, but none of it is actually going to throw any light on anything.

I've played with Simenon (shortly) and Fonz in Mafia 64 (cries).

Get that game off my record please.

[Simenon]

Others is Shanba generally lurky I haven't played with him prior?

Yes, but substantive. Kind of like my memory of erg0, which no I'm beginning to doubt.

[Simenon]

Others is Shanba generally lurky I haven't played with him prior?

Yes, but substantive. Kind of like my memory of erg0, which no I'm beginning to doubt.

I don't know how the word "no" got in there.

[Simenon]

The Fonz and Simenon may recall this playstyle from Basically Communist Mafia.

Nope.
I remember a DGB-esque replacement rant followed by good posting in endgame.

[Simenon]

Jesus, I'm awesome at mafia.

Unvote: Vollkan, Vote: Shanba

TL;DR version.

I'm sorry, I don't understand your abbreviations.

"Too long; Didn't Read."

In other words, Oman didn't read your post, but assumed your subsequent vote must be correct.

I'll get to your post in a bit, Jitsu.

[Simenon]

Up until this point, I've found Simenon's tactics fairly legit, but I'm wondering why he reversed himself in 62 about the wagon never really being a joke, just after he said it started out as one?

It's never a joke. It used humor, sure, but because I've found humor to be an effective method of provoking posts.

Simenon's 93 is a bit snarky and evasive, but even thought he has a good question in there, but I'm puzzled why in 95 he gave up on the Cicero wagon before some of the other players weigh in -- and what is the reason for switching to Erg0 (as opposed to unvoting or choosing someone else). (After reading a bit more, I see Adel said basically said the same thing in 100.)

I'm always snarky. It's really getting to be a problem. It made Oman explode in the above post.
The cicero wagon seemed to have served its purpose. We are already on page eight, which is a good sign.

Hmmm, so in Shaft.ed's 124, we find that the allegation that Oman pushing the wagon was a joke. This seems in contrast to the serious sounding explanation he gave in 92. How does 131 fit into this? Was this an honest joke or an attempt to cast suspicion that failed? I'm not sure.

Good catch, but it his response was pretty deadpan.

In other news

Unvote
Vote Shanba

1. The erg0 wagon refuses to budge.
2. The recent perk in erg0's posting has made me change my mind slightly
3. There is a legitimate movement towards Shanba
4. Shanba is being overly brief in this game. Either he's not quite focussed, in which case the pressure will help he get into the game, or there is something else there, in which case the wagon should be explored.

[Simenon]

I gave my reasons for the Shanba wagon. I don't see the need to elaborate.

[Simenon]

I didn't see any

openings

in his answer to

exploit

further .

Excuse me?

unvote vote: Jitsu

Unvote
Vote shaft.ed

Utterly opportunistic. This has to be a deliberate attempt to take that out of context, since I don't see how a townie who read the full post of Jitsu's couldn't understand his intention. Furthermore, he bolds some words in an attempt to distract from the larger picture.

I agree with Adel that vollkan looks likes he's trying to set up the Jitsu lynch. However, I'm not sure he would be if shaft.ed isn't scum, so I prefer this wagon.

[Simenon]

Simenon, you can't tell me that doesn't look like an unconcious slip up. Jitsu's never been scum, I think it warrants pressure.

With or without the context?
I exploited an opening when I voted for you. vollkan spotted an opening through which he could attack Jitsu.
It's uncommon terminology, but it makes sense.

Vollkan: It's a gut feeling based around the timing of your post and shaf.ted's post. It's not worth voting on.

[Simenon]

Simenon, you can't tell me that doesn't look like an unconcious slip up. Jitsu's never been scum, I think it warrants pressure.

With or without the context?

If it's an unconcious slip up the context is irrelevant.

The context determines whether it can be judged a slip up or not.

I exploited an opening when I voted for you. vollkan spotted an opening through which he could attack Jitsu.
It's uncommon terminology, but it makes sense.

I guess I understand a different meaning of the word exploit than you. To me it's much more taking advantage of a situation to wrongly benefit yourself at another's expense. But consulting the dictionary I see that's not always the case. I've still never seen it used in such a context.

It frequently is used to mean "to seize a chance."

[Simenon]

So here we are.

I think Adel's point on Vollkan is good AND I think Simenon's point on Shaft.ed is good. Jitsu is a waffler though and I think a little pressure on him would have been good.

You have successfully had it all ways.

Adel: You fail to consider cicero scum/ckd town. Ckd's post is stupid (referring to "you left me out"), but there is no reason to point that out as scum. That post would 1. alert the town of a mistake a scumbuddy made 2. alert the town that ckd was lurking.

Rather, I'm reading the situation as Cicero trying to tie himself to CKD. Because after every mediocre post by CKD, Cicero is always there to make a comment afterwards that makes CKD's posts seem even worse.

Also, post 251 contains a couple scumisms:

Good old day ones. Always such fun.

So here we are.

[Simenon]

And really, 257 doesn't look so bad until you have 258 following it.

[Simenon]

It's a massive pet peeve to have people question what my interpretation of things are. It essentially boils down to "no, it didn't look like that to you at all." Defend yourself, and if the comment can't be defended because it's pure opinion, don't bother anwering it.

You have successfully had it all ways.

Yup. I haven't picked a side fully on this one yet.

And you are signifying that by agreeing with all sides?

CKD/Simenon pairing +1 for future reference and those keeping an Adel like score. I'm not tying myself to anyone. I'm callin' em like I sees em.

See above. Clearly I don't believe you're calling them like you seem them. So stating that doesn't actually achieve anything.

I guess I tied myself to you too by saying I didnt think your start game flippancy was scummy. Also CKD addressed me first and solicited a comment.

What I meant is that you're dragging him down. Trying to make him look bad.

And really, 257 doesn't look so bad until you have 258 following it.

257 and 258 don't look bad at all.

See: pet peeve. Sorry, I didn't realize they didn't actually look bad. I'll try to edit my post with what it actually looks like to me.

Nothing bad there.

Do you think you would have been better off without writing "haha"?

[Simenon]

Simenon, if you put in qualifiers to make your opinion sound subjective instead of speaking in objectives (I don't recall you saying it looks bad "to me" originally. You just declared that "it looks bad" suggesting that it would to any reasonable observer.) then I'll put in corollaries as well that it is my opinion. If not don't blame me for doing the same thing you are doing. Everyone else just put in place "in my opinion" for all my future posts and all of Simenon's and it will save us all a lot of hassle.

There are somethings that can and should be debated. "I don't like the ambassador China because he wants to get rid of the Great Wall" is something debatable. No, Simenon, the president of China hasn't actually said in this game that he wants to get rid of the Great Wall.
"I don't like the ambassador of China" is not worth debating, however, because you can't argue in a mafia game "well, you actually do like the president of China."
"I don't like the ambassador of China because I think he looks like a chipmunk" is also worth not arguing.
Now, some argue that the above two comments should be minimized. Others believe mafia currently does not have enough of them. That is up to debate.

I couldn't, of course, give a hoot if it is a pet peeve. And I'll play the way I wan't to play, FYI.

I'd suggest taking up Solitaire.

I DO however think that what is happening is you trying to make me look bad. Not me trying to make CKD look bad, for what it's worth.

I am attacking you. "Haha" is not an attack.
Or better yet, I'm questioning you.

You made a point of noting the possibility of CKD town/ Cicero Scum to Adel. But did not raise the opposite possibility - Cicero town / CKD scum. Why not?

Adel already raised that possibility. I was responding to the lack of consideration for the former.

[Simenon]

Adel: I don't understand what CKD's motives could be if he were scum and cicero wasn't.

[Simenon]

yeah, but like chunky milk, you just don't pass the smell test.

Which is ironic really, because I always find that the "smell test" smells like bullshit (in keeping with the digestive theme, the same applies to "gut")

You should meet Cyan, the awe-inspiring mtgs player who tries his hardest to explain why mafia should not have an emotional impact never ever.

Could you point out a couple of these? Not seeing this as a grand trend

There were only a couple of examples.

253 (which wasn't explicitly part of any CKD post) and 258.

[Simenon]

I'm extremely interested to hear Sim's thoughts on CKD's original response to Adel.

Nah already posted it. Sorry.

In case you missed it: I think it was a stupid thing to do, but there is a pressure on townies to be as "inquisitive as possible", and to pursue every option. I am constantly under this pressure and make idiotic posts too. I believe "why didn't cicero include me" to be genuine here.

[Simenon]

The reason I ask is that you once told me one of your favorite scumtells is someone getting belligerent and rude in the face of an accusation,

Did I say that? I'm wrong.

I

get rude and belligerent in the face of an accusation.

[Simenon]

The reason I ask is that you once told me one of your favorite scumtells is someone getting belligerent and rude in the face of an accusation,

Did I say that? I'm wrong.

I

get rude and belligerent in the face of an accusation.

And I think the whole notion of "scumtells" is mostly bullshit anyway.

[Simenon]

Let's not play at robots. The intangible plays a strong role in this game. Gut is very important.

Depends on what you mean. Gut can play a legitimate role as a compass. By that, I mean that if I see something that pings my gutdar, that might be a legitimate basis for doing a proper logical analysis. But gut in and of itself is something that I don't believe is justifiable.

Some things are hard to articulate and hard to explain. If I understand your argument correctly, you think that gut is what leads you to find scummy flaws in logic. I disagree. I think that scum don't need to use bad logic to win. In fact, I think the best way to catch scums is through looking at tone, sentence structure, and the context to determine scum. And some of those things can't be easily explained.

In case you cared.

[Simenon]

The Oman issue is overblown.

[Simenon]

I'm not "riding things out until the deadline". I just inherited a large workload, and have been planning to switch my vote for a while.

And anybody who says I'm lurking has standards for activity that are way too high.

[Simenon]

Dislike group effort on the part of Adel + Cicero to remove "lurkers".

[Simenon]

And if people do rely too heavily on Vollkan's PBPA posts to catch up on the game and not read closely, that's being lazy and letting others do your work for you. If the scum are going to be lazy, let them be lazy. It should make them easier to catch, right? If the town are going to be lazy, that's just as bad. A town that wants to win shouldn't let people get away with continually polly-parroting someone else's good analysis and not offering any commentary or scumhunting of their own, anyway. IMO, if townie does this, s/he deserves it if someone votes him/her for it. If a scum does it, same deal.

I don't understand what you're arguing here. How can this be used to catch scum more easily if the town can just as easily be lazy (for what it's worth, I've seen more lazy towns than lazy scum.)?

Cicero in 478 bothers me, because there are few people he

doesn't

mention.

I say we use the dice tags to pick one of the four, and we lynch that person.

No information that way. We might as well start a wagon in the old style form and take your course of action late on Tuesday.


Oman[3] (Erg0, Shanba, shaft.ed)
Shanba[3] (Jitsu, Oman, Adel)
shaft.ed[2] (The Fonz, Simenon)
curiouskarmadog[1] ( BillyTwilight)
Adel[1] (curiouskarmadog)
The Fonz[1] (cicero)

I've stated before that the Oman wagon seems overblown to me. I am really reading Oman as a genuine attempt take things easy. I also don't think he has the balls to suggest this style of play as scum.
Therefore:

Unvote
Vote Shanba[/i]

Terrible lurker. Unlike the Shanba I know. Needs pressure anyway eventually.

For the record, I'd prefer shaft.ed, but I just don't think we have the chance today.

[Simenon]

Unvote
Vote Shanba

[Simenon]

Do you really think shaft.ed stands a chance of being lynched today? Why don't you try doing something more productive with your vote?

I was writing the above post when you made this comment.

[Simenon]

really. Typical day 1 lynches are worse the random, and comprimise deadline lynches are worse than typical lynches.

Typical day 1 lynches also help you make better choices for other lynches.

[Simenon]

really. Typical day 1 lynches are worse the random, and comprimise deadline lynches are worse than typical lynches.

Typical day 1 lynches also help you make better choices for other lynches.

and deadline lynches often do not.

Most votes before vote 5 on a deadline wagon at least have a justification, even if it is "this is the best choice before the deadline." With a dice, no votes yield information.

[Simenon]

I'm not voting for CKD unless it's necessary.

[Simenon]

Simenon, I don’t know why, but I feel like Simenon is disingenuous. It is just a feeling or a vibe. He post seem coy to me for some reason.

What do you feel needs to be answered?

You state you will not vote me unless you have too, I am curious Sime, what circumstances would make you “have too”?

I support your lynch above no lynch. Or at least, I supported it.

I will be reconsidering Oman, CKD, and Adel within the next 12 hours.

[Simenon]

I am not going to be active for the next 10 hours, so I can't easily change my vote from here.

I can't see this day ending anywhere else than a CKD lynch without vollkan's support.

Unvote
Vote CKD

If I see by the last few hours that this has changed, I'll of course reconsider. But this is about lynching

somebody