Mini #582: Meta Mafia Mini! GAME OVER!

[Johoohno]

Anyone with experience of Meta games?

[Johoohno]

Lynch all random voters!

[Johoohno]

Or is it just coincidence that your first post of the game was immediately after I had called you a lurker?

@ Mr Stoofer: What about post 10?

[Johoohno]

Vote: Primate

You give Emptyger one of your votes (to put it on KingPin) in post 24 but also try to make a neutral statement that you wouldn't vote KingPin yourself. Ambiguous of how to please the crowd?

FoS: Mr Stoofer

With everything going on here already we can't afford sloppy reading of player posts.

To the rest of the KingPin voters (ThesweatpantsNinja, EmpTyger & Primate): did you also miss KingPin's post #10 or did you find his answer to Stoofer reason enough to vote him?

[Johoohno]

@ EmpTyger: No, I read your answer, but I wanted to make sure if post 10 was missed by you or not.

@ Mr Stoofer: Being sloppy is, in my eyes, a scum tell (not the strongest one I admit, but enough to make a note of). I get harassed for it in some other games, but I stick to it for now (partly to be able to look back on some of my games and evaluate the truth of it). My take is that scum can afford being sloppy readers and stay in the present most of the time, and when the time comes they can do a reread and create a case on the player they want to frame. (Plus sloppiness isn't helping the town.)

[Johoohno]

Anyone familiar with post restrictions (a set number of words each post or a set number of posts each day?)? I get the feeling that ThesweatpantsNinja might be suffering from one. Comments?

Also:
@ Fonz: Were there anything else but a made up random reason to suspect EmpTyger of being cultist?

[Johoohno]

@ Primate: You haven't answered my question in post 44! Actually, you haven't said anything for five days now (yes I see that you haven't posted at all since Friday on the forum, but we've got no reason for that absence).

[Johoohno]

Focus has been on Primate and Stoofer so far, here's a post to widen up the field a bit (but my vote remains on Primate for the time being).

ThesweatpantsNinja

: I don't like his vote for KingPin in post 22. He explained his vote (in post 32) as 90% ironic. The thing is that I see KingPin's post 21 as ironic. Since TSPN mentions irony I must believe he understands it, which makes me even more uncertain of how he actually read and interpreted KingPin's post.

EmpTyger

: I might be a bit paranoid but I'm being a bit suspicious of EmpTyger. He was the one who got the whole Primate affair started by asking to borrow a vote from Primate (post 23) and it feels as a safe move to do, you won't get in the heat for asking for someone's vote (whereas the opposite is risky). I know this might be far fetched, but I still want this thought to be planted and pondered on byy the rest of you.

Some questions

@ Everyone, but Primate

: Who of you would have acted the same way as Primate in post 24 and 34?

@ Primate

: Have you ever played a game where you didn't have any votes? (If so, I'd appreciate a link.)

[Johoohno]

I'd say that they'll probably take different stances (if there are three mafias, one would brush off Stoofer's carelessness, the other would attack it).

[Johoohno]

(Quick post and response:)

@ Primate:

You could attach your infamous stupidity label on me, but to me it's not clear in post 109 if you see Fonz as scummy or not. Which way is it?

@ EmpTyger:

Johoohoo:
I’d still like a response to my [97]. Especially since, on reread, it sounds like you’re accusation is that I’m guilty and Primate’s innocent- yet you’re voting Primate, so…?

:
<snip>
EmpTyger: I might be a bit paranoid but I'm being a bit suspicious of EmpTyger. He was the one who got the whole Primate affair started by asking to borrow a vote from Primate (post 23) and it feels as a safe move to do, you won't get in the heat for asking for someone's vote (whereas the opposite is risky). I know this might be far fetched, but I still want this thought to be planted and pondered on byy the rest of you.
<snip>

What exactly are you accusing me of? I mean, playing it safe by sticking my neck out, and then defending Primate? Is there anything more to this than, “A mentioned B; therefore, A may be mafia”?

I am not accusing, I'm speculating, and I wanted others to see my speculations in order to see if they are just paranoia or if there is more to them. To make it clear: I find it note worthy (and possibly suspicious) that you started the whole no-vote/borrow vote debacle, and I want to see if others found that note worthy (and perhaps even suspicious) too, or if it's only paranoia. (quote post 115)

[Johoohno]

I've had some really busy days but now I'm back. I've just skimmed through the posts since my last check-up and have noticed two things I find note worthy before I go back and read the posts more thoroughly.

DestroyeroftheSky

is chalked up quite a bit on my scum scale since his fishing around dead players' alignment (the question is if it was just stupid or if it was eager scum trying to appear looking for scum).

Primate

seem to disappear for quite some periods. I'm not sure if that is his way of play or if he is trying to "lurk away" any suspicions still lingering on him. I'll leave my vote on him for now, until I've reread.

[Johoohno]

@ DestroyeroftheSky:

I'm pretty content with Stoofer's response in 164, except that he didn't explain why questioning a dead "townie's" alignment is a scumtell. And apparently Johoohno finds it scummy too. I still don't see why, so either one/both of you, please enlighten me.

It seems obvious to me that green indicates town player, and the part you are fishing for is his saying only "bah!" and not "go town". In my eyes that sticks out as trying to create something out of nothing.

@ Mathcam:

Have your feelings towards DestroyeroftheSky changed from his post 160 and onwards?

[Johoohno]

I agree with the above: I don't like mod kills, but (as my vote indicates) I'm all in favour of voting off Primate.

[Johoohno]

I'm a bit behind in the reading of this thread. I'll catch up during the weekend hopefully. Meanwhile I'll

unvote

since I need to think, and read, a bit about Primate's claim.

[Johoohno]

Okay, I'm up to speed.

I'm not sure of the mass claim part, but I lean towards not claiming. The informed minority will understand so much more from any info we give.

I would also like to shift (at least my own) forcus on other than primate and stoofer, and through that get a read of those two in their actions not involving their own necks. (Just a short comment on the primate claim: seems believable to me, but it's not indicative of his alignment)

The Fonz

I really don't like how the Fonz is trying to keep his head down and then appear all of a sudden to try and and get protown points (post 229)

mneme

I would also like to hear more from mneme (beside his opinions of stoofer)


And a linguistic question to further my understanding of the game (English being my second language): Can someone explain what you mean when talking about strawman and strawmanning (I saw it in an earlier post in this thread and weren't entirely sure of it).

[Johoohno]

The Fonz

I really don't like how the Fonz is trying to keep his head down and then appear all of a sudden to try and and get protown points (post 229)

Explain how a) I'm 'keeping my head down' and b) my post there was an attempt to gain protown points, and not, say, born of a genuine fear that Stoofer would quicklynch.

a) You had no posts between May 1st and May 8th, might be a good way for a potential scum to keep a low profile and let the discussion come to a consensus of whom to lynch, especially since you were out of the line of fire.
b) It is a quite obvious comment you come with in 229 (Almost everybody in this game is probably experienced enough to realize that on their own).

@ DestroyeroftheSky

What is your opinion of claiming (which has been discussed since your last appearance here)?

[Johoohno]

Johoohno:
Why did you unvote Primate? You were against him back at the start of the day, with evidence I personally thought weak. But since then, what has he done that’s protown?

I unvoted because I, at that time, was a bit behind in the reading of the thread and I didn't want a player to be lynched with the help of my vote unbeknowst to me.

I can't say that he has done very many things I see as pro town since then. However, D1 has mostly been about Primate and Stoofer, and I want it to be about other things and players too (right now I'm waiting for DestroyeroftheSky to answer my question in post 273).

[Johoohno]

@ EmpTyger: In what way do you want me to elaborate on Primate's claim (the sentence you've quoted me on pretty much sums up my view)? I won't help lynching Primate right now, and I don't see any immediate danger of him being quicklynched without the vote tally giving valuable information of whom to be seen as scum, depending on what alignment his death would show (he is actually at L-2 if I've done my math correctly). I'm not saying that I see him as town, but I see other players as more scummy.

I'm still waiting for DestroyeroftheSky (

Mod: could you prod DotS please?

) and I'm intrigued by the argument between mneme and ThesweatpantsNinja. I don't like how mneme puts Primate at L-1 and then try to cover it up by attacking TSN, but I agree with him on the no mass claiming stanse (as said before).

[Johoohno]

Johoohno:
I wanted you to elaborate on Primate’s alignment.

Also, which other players specifically do you see “as more scummy”?

I am suspicious of Primate, but he isn't my top scum candidate right now. Two other players I see as suspicious are (not in any specific order right now): DestroyeroftheSky (for a long time now) and mneme (recent addition due to last page actions).

But I’m kind of despairing of convincing people. So I’ll also offer this: I’ll drop pressing for a massclaim, if those who are against it pledge that they understand that

anything to do with claims is at best useless and more likely counterproductive

, and all

nightactions will be treated as completely unreliable until after a massclaim is done

.

I don't think that anything that has to do with claims are useless until we've had a mass claim, but I think that all investigations and the like is to be taken with a grain (or more like a handful) of salt in this game. Sounds, to me, as if I partly disagree with the first part and agrees with the second one. I admit that my suspicions of Primate dropped somewhat after his claim (and TSN's potential explanation as to why EmpTyger still was targeted), but he is still, as said before in this post, suspicious.

[Johoohno]

I really don't see the gain in mass claiming.

Let's say we go down that way, scum already know quite about this setup (knowing each others role, powers or no powers, Greasy Spot's role and something about Primate and TSN - unless those are scums that is). They can probably easily make up fake claims and how are we to discern what's true or not Day 1? They on the other hand will know a lot about what roles are in circulation and can pick nightkills with great precision. If they, on top of that, gets to know how the powerroles stargeted they will be even more informed, whereas the town will have even more false information trying to filter.

I'd say that we try lynching the player found most scummy this day (I am not ready to lynch yet - Heck, I'm not even voting now).

Am I missing/missunderstanding something according to the mass claim thought?

This also puts me back to the beginning of the game where I asked if anyone had been in a meta game. Is a meta game supposed to be broken or massclaimed or whatever?

[Johoohno]

I would like to be clear on the claiming issue first.

[Johoohno]

---

Johoohno:
In [311], why did you ask for only DotS to be prodded, and not Primate also?

Since I had a question waiting to be answered by DotS.

Johoohno:
I wanted you to elaborate on Primate’s alignment.

Also, which other players specifically do you see “as more scummy”?

I am suspicious of Primate, but he isn't my top scum candidate right now. Two other players I see as suspicious are (not in any specific order right now): DestroyeroftheSky (for a long time now) and mneme (recent addition due to last page actions).
<snip>

Why are you suspicious of DotS?

Due to a lot of small things (some scum tells, some differences in opinion only):
* Post seems to search a scapegoat
* I disagree with him that kinppin overreacted (post 33)
* Seems a bit nervous about mathcam's vote on him, and it was only one vote (post 101)
* The fishing for roles through looking at the dead corpse (post 153 & post 161)
* in the beginning he was farily active, but has kept a low profile after the above mentioned incident.

<snip>
I'd say that we try lynching the player found most scummy this day (I am not ready to lynch yet - Heck, I'm not even voting now).

Am I missing/missunderstanding something according to the mass claim thought?
<snip>

Here’s the problem: The town votes up the most suspicious player. When that player is 1 or 2 away from lynch, they claim. How does the town evaluate the claim? Without a massclaim, how will you evaluated role information in this setup? And while the town could ignore the claim- by your own admission, your suspicion of Primate dropped after his claim.

As for the rest, I’m not going to repeat myself. Read through the rest of my posts.

I'm kind of negativ on D1 claims in general. Furthermore, the reason that my suspicion dropped somewhat on him is that he chose to make a claim that needed someone backing it up. It would be a bold play by scum to do that.

However, I'm not negative of a Primate lynch, but wanted more info on the claim issue (and I've gotten some). Would be nice to hear something more from Primate and DotS both now.

[Johoohno]

Time to vote (and by that bump this thread to life again):

Vote: Mneme

[Johoohno]

He brings Primate to L-1 in post 300 without any mentioning of it. When the L-1 is questioned (post 302) he tries to shift focus (post 304) and finally shifts vote as well to TSN (post 306).

And all this from a person who has been very single-minded on stoofer all the way up to post 300, now he is voting wildly all over the place. And since May 19 he has been silent. Could be a way to avoid notion and keeping his head low.

[Johoohno]

mathcam/Johoohno:
Deja vu, but if mneme is mafia, who do you think is mafia with him?

Is it really wise to speculate on pairings day 1?

[Johoohno]

Mod:

Could we get a vote count please.

[Johoohno]

EBWOP: and what about prods (and potential replacements): any news?

[Johoohno]

Mneme
DotS
Primate (only if to avoid a no-lynch, I prefer the other two)

[Johoohno]

mathcam, why the change of vote?

[Johoohno]

People that aren't on leading wagons (like me) should probably unvote, considering deadline rules.

So,

Unvote.

Continue to consider me voting johoohno, but its clear no one else is interested in pursuing him.

You weren't voting before you know ...

[Johoohno]

Johoohno get's -ve points for keeping his vote on mneme.

Explain please, I don't understand what you mean.

In case something happens to TSN, can either of you guarantee that you can cast a lynching vote on Saturday before the deadline?

I can hammer (unless DotS or mneme sails up as likely of being lynched, and if nothing unplanned IRL occurs), though I prefer TSN making true of his promise. (exactly when is the lynch, translated to GMT - I'm guessing EDT is something like GMT-7?)

You are really lucky you are guaranteed innocent.

Explain please!

[Johoohno]

“Guaranteed” is too strong a word, I suppose, since it implies mod-confirmation. But he is definitely innocent. Refer to [170].

In my book he isn't cleared, what you are referring to only "clears" him as being a newbie.

[Johoohno]

Johoohno get's -ve points for keeping his vote on mneme.

Explain please, I don't understand what you mean.

tss' deadline rules state that:

At deadline, a supermajority (2/3) of all votes cast is needed to lynch, with a minimum of three votes cast to draw the supermajority from.

Therefore, every vote that isn't on a likely lynch is increasing the likelihood of a no lynch. As it stands, 10 votes have been cast, 5 of which are on Primate, only making 1/2. Primate himself has cast two votes, neither of which we can expect to see moved. You, The Fonz and mneme are

directly

increasing the chance of us no lynching by continuing to vote for someone other than Primate.

I understand the rules just fine, it is your term "-ve points" that I don't understand.

[Johoohno]

I'm not sure what a serial rolekiller does - leaves his victim alive but roleless? What would then be his win condition (being a one-eyed in the city of blind by being the only one with a, by then, useless role in a city of vanillas?)

However, it's time to use these new unfathomable powers I've been granted.

Vote: DestroyeroftheSky

Vote: The Fonz

(I see in my notes that I've made some kind of connection between DotS and The Fonz - need to back track and see what it was)

[Johoohno]

Ah, my connection wasn't bigger than this (DotS defending Fonz in a subtle way):

Wrong, on almost every level. As my little experiment above should have proven, Primate is under no obligation to do anything.

And on the contrary, it makes great sense for him to do this. Voting records = more information = helpful for town. This provides 2 additional datasets over Primate just doubling or splitting his vote: it shows (a) who I would vote for, and (b) who Primate would let me vote for. Moreover, it deprives me the chance to do some weaselly things I could try if I knew that my words would not be backed by action.

(As for why *I* care if I’m not on record, since *I* know my own alignment: Because tomorrow it might not be Primate and me. And I’m not about to let a bad precedent be set. And I’ve gotten to test Primate this way. And besides, democratically, there’s value in being able to vote, even if indirectly.)

Firstly, I don't think Fonz suggested that Primate was under any obligation. The point I raised, which I assume Fonz was agreeing with, was that

Primate

had created a sense that he had an obligation to share his vote. The rest becomes Mafia discussion and I'm not interested in pursuing it in great depth because I straight out think that would be a waste of time.

What's truly significant is that Primate's original justification for 'donating' his vote to you was that you may become uninterested,

not

that it would be more informative. In my mind, that's a very weak and downright suspicious reason to give a vote up.


In other news, I don't understand the Mr Stoofer wagon.

That took part a long way back, and is a very small thing. Though, I think I'll leave my votes where they are nonetheless (Emptyger's claim that The Fonz is townish is the main reason).

[Johoohno]

@ DotS:

We learned of Primate's, but not mneme's role mechanism.

On the claiming part: I'm actually considering a "claim one - claim all", now that we've had another night under our belts (and night choices has been made based on some kind of analysis, in contrast to N0 chicoes).

[Johoohno]

Johoohno:
I’m running out of eyebrows to raise…

<snip>
That took part a long way back, and is a very small thing. Though, I think I'll leave my votes where they are nonetheless (Emptyger's claim that The Fonz is townish is the main reason).

You *don’t* think that Fonz is townish? He unvoted immediately to prevent the early quicklynch of Primate (who is now confirmed as town). And Fonz was the only one with a vote who didn’t want to lynch Primate in the end. I mean, who has been *more* protown than that?

For that matter, based on what you’re implying with “Emptyger's claim that The Fonz is townish is the main reason”, why aren’t you voting *me* instead? (Was the mafia plan to give me a wide berth and hope I stayed focused on someone protown?)

Man, is it that simple to earn almost guaranteed town status in the house of EmpTyger? About the voting I think you can relax, we're only hours in on this day. My votes will likely change during the course of day. Sometime during this D2 I'll do a reread and reevaluate my gathered notes so far. For now, I'm just stirring the pot a bit.

What’s changed since yesterday regarding massclaims? Yesterday you said:

<snip>
Let's say we go down that way, scum already know quite about this setup (knowing each others role, powers or no powers, Greasy Spot's role and something about Primate and TSN - unless those are scums that is). They can probably easily make up fake claims and how are we to discern what's true or not Day 1? They on the other hand will know a lot about what roles are in circulation and can pick nightkills with great precision. If they, on top of that, gets to know how the powerroles stargeted they will be even more informed, whereas the town will have even more false information trying to filter.
<snip>

But now you are saying:

<snip>
On the claiming part: I'm actually considering a "claim one - claim all", now that we've had another night under our belts (and night choices has been made based on some kind of analysis, in contrast to N0 chicoes).

Why have you quoted two posts that pretty much states the answer to your question? D1 = little knowledge, D2 = Night choices has been made based on player posts and analysis thereof (at least I hope that).

Johoohno: What's "claim 1 - claim all"? The same as mass claim, or something like "As soon as we force someone to claim, we force everyone else to claim too"?

Mass claim's the term I was looking for. Though IF we do it (I'm not sure yet, but I lean to it) it should be done in an orderly fashion.

Something doesn't sit right with me about Johoonho today. Of all the connections to remember, he remembered an admittedly tiny connection between Fonz and DoTS when, in my opinion, there were several much stronger connections? And he remembered it well enough to vote on it right off the bat? And he split his vote? And why was the connection scummy in the first place? Also, Johoohno was pretty definitively anti-mass-claim yesterday, but he sounds much more okay with it today -- since he had a chance to talk over fakeclaims with co-scum?

Cam

I voted DotS because my suspicion was there at the end of the last day, and when I went through my notes on him I saw I'd written that connection and refered to post 52, hence I went back to that post later on when I found time and was a bit disappointed in what I found, but since it shook EmpTyger to life and defence I see it as valuable to remember.

On the fakeclaiming issue - see my reasons above in connection to the EmpTyger quotes.

Ah, missed Emp's post.

And I also forgot to note how quick Johoohno was to downplay his own votes once Emp pointed out he thought they were townish.

Cam

Didn't I do just the opposite? Or am I misunderstanding the term?

Now I realize what awkward position Primate was having, since this town is at the one with two votes regardless of who it is

[Johoohno]

<snip>
Man, is it that simple to earn almost guaranteed town status in the house of EmpTyger?

Man, is it that simple to earn almost most suspicious status in the house of Johoohno?

I wouldn't say he is #1 scum on my list, but he sure is on it. I think this explains why he is voted right now (post 461): "I think I'll leave my votes where they are nonetheless (Emptyger's claim that The Fonz is townish is the main reason)."

About the voting I think you can relax, we're only hours in on this day. My votes will likely change during the course of day. Sometime during this D2 I'll do a reread and reevaluate my gathered notes so far. For now, I'm just stirring the pot a bit.
<snip>

I think you misunderstand. I’m not concerned about *Fonz* getting lynched- in fact, I would be shocked if he received a second vote. For that matter, I would be shocked if he were in anyone else’s top half, much less their top 2.
No, I’m concerned that *you* are mafia. Very concerned. So concerned I nearly voted you right here, but I’m going to reread D1 first.

And here I might have been vague, I wasn't talking about my vote on Fonz, rather why I wasn't voting you right now.

As for claiming: I quoted and asked what I did because D1, you were concerned about fakeclaims and false information. But today, mafia have a better opportunity to fakeclaim and give false information- but all of a sudden your previous objections are gone and you’ve found a reason to be in favor.

But the town also have more night choices of their own to judge the outcome of. I still expect fake claims and false information, but we've actually removed one element (= mneme) of expected lies.

[Johoohno]

@ EmpTyger:

You know, just because you vote someone he doesn't have to be your top scum candidate. Also (on your Kingpin/Fonz track), I haven't done any reread yet today, I'm just going by the things on top of my head.

[Johoohno]

As I said, I need to reread, but in my notes he is among the top three or four.

[Johoohno]

EBWOP: I don't have any plans of making a reread right now, I will have a lot of real life issues to take care of for ten days or so.

[Johoohno]

It is unlycky that I have a few hectic days ahead of me (se sig). However, I'd appreciate if you don't lynch me before I'm back, since I then would like to have some time to do a reread.

Furthermore, when D2 started I was in a really good mood (even those nearly blind can't miss the tone shift in my posts from D1 to D2), seeing as the night choices had gone so well for the town (and that I was right on track voting mneme) and, on top of that, me having two votes to use in the town's best interest. Talk about a big let down, when all of a sudden I'm in the line of fire (brings me back to my first newbie game here, after which I decided to keep a lower profile in general (as I was on to the scum, but was lynched due to acting scummy in my fellow townies opinions).

Just stating the, hopefully, obvious here: I plan to have both my votes on the same person later on today, when I've reread and chose whom I really want lynched. My split vote now is to be considered a service to the town to see where my suspicions lies now (even though more than those two are on my scum list).

I would also like what the rest of you think about claiming today. Obviously I will claim if a lynch is closing in on me, but I'm more interested in a mass claim - since I think it might be good (as I've stated before this day 2). I could go first, if we go pop corn style or the town judges that it should be done in the order of scummiest players - AND I am considered to be it. (Those are the only mass claim variants I'm familiar of, I guess there might be more variants).

Also,

Mod:

Please prod KingPin and The Fonz (those two haven't checked in D2 yet - well, the Fonz was first poster with a really "content ridden" post)

[Johoohno]

Okay everyone, I'm back.

Since I'm kind of up for target claim here goes (paranthesis being back up demanded by mod):
N1: Primate & KingPin (Greasy Spot & mathcam)
N2: TSN & Massive (EmpTyger & KinPin)

I'll read up on today and think a bit about that and later on this week or the next I'll reread the last day.

[Johoohno]

Also:

unvote and unvote

[Johoohno]

@ Emptyger

: According to your post 425 your night choices are:
N1 - Stoofer/mathcam
N2: DotS/Fonz
Are we to understand that mathcam and Fonz are backups or not?

About mathcam, Fonz & Stoofer

I find this trio is interesting. None of them claims to have made any night choices either night.

@ everyone

: What about claiming roles now?

[Johoohno]

I am a target switcher.

[Johoohno]

@ Emptyger

: According to your post 425 your night choices are:
N1 - Stoofer/mathcam
N2: DotS/Fonz
Are we to understand that mathcam and Fonz are backups or not?

Before anyone else claims a role, I really want to be clear on EMpTyger's targets: Back ups or dual targets?

[Johoohno]

@ EmpTyger

: I targeted those that I was having a hard time to read as either scum or townie.

[Johoohno]

EBWOP: However, one of them was feeling slightly scummy to me while the other seemed slightly more townish.

[Johoohno]

@ EmpTyger

:

Johoohno:

@ EmpTyger

: I targeted those that I was having a hard time to read as either scum or townie.

You suspected DotS, Fonz, (mneme).
You weren't sure how to read: EmpTyger, KingPin, massive, TSN.

What about mathcam and Stoofer? How did you feel about them?

I wasn't sure on massive and TSN. Emptyger and KingPin were back ups (and targeted because they felt as being of opposed alignment, which would screw around with mafia night choices - no matter who's on what side).

I'm suspicious of mathcam - but more D1 than D2 I think. The other way around is true for Stoofer (who, I have noticed, have followed me around real closely, and all of a sudden then votes me).

@ DotS

: I think I agree with you on not submitting the secondary choices, but I need to think a bit more on this before I make my decision. I would like to hear others opinion on this as well.

[Johoohno]

@ EmpTyger:

Another equally valid theory would be difference in playstyle. The way I did it, gave us information that massive is the vote doubler, and an indication on who he wants to give that extra vote to (N0: Primate, N1: TSN). That gives me more to build my view of both their alignments on in combination with their actions D1.

@ DotS:

My information of the night choices doesn't concur in full with what you present in post 575:
Primate's choices were: Emp to Fonz (Stoof to mneme) as written in post 235 (or did he correct himself once again later on?)

[Johoohno]

And those lies are something we should try and find. I'm still positive to a mass claim (but, my opinion probably isn't that valuabla since my role already is out in the open).

[Johoohno]

@ EmpTyger:

I plan to post a list like that, but not just yet. I want to do the reread first, and that has to be postponed until some time after July 15 unfortunately (I'll be away all next week with limited access, and up till then there are tons to do).

I'd also like to know if we're going to make a mass claim or not before I do my reread. EMp; you've probably kept notes on who's willing and who's not, what's the count pro and against?

[Johoohno]

EBWOP: If we're doing the mass claim, it would save me some time having it done before my reread (so that I don't have to do to this close to one another)

[Johoohno]

@ EmpTyger:

My suspects at the end of D1
Likely to be scums: mneme, DotS, The Fonz.
Possible scums: EmpTyger, mathcam
Unsure of how to read: massive (leaning to town), TSN (leaning to scum)
Leaning to town: Stoofer (sloppy, but nevertheless), KingPin

Now, I don't like you dictating the claim order anymore. My order of claims would be:
EmpTyger
DotS
The Fonz
TSN
KingPin

[Johoohno]

I think it's entirely possible that I've been targeted at night by a role that's affected my night actions. Emp did target me, but I don't know what that did. It's also possible that scum targeted me too and lied about it.

This is one reason that supports a mass claim!

[Johoohno]

And I disagree with you. First we now know everyones night targets, and if all roles are claimed now we can compare targets and roles and see where they add up to what we know and where they don't. Depending on what we find we can make a move on that, or go back to scum hunting in other areas beside roles and targets if that gives us nothing (which I find unlikely, when everyone has claimed we will have plenty material to work with).

I don't see a way around this day without a mass claim, and isn't the town in favor? I only here one or two or three voices against it. Therefore we need to get to it. You know my preferred order of claims from post 607, and EmpTyger has served his list in post 571. I suggest that the rest of you also serve your lists, or agree with one already voiced, and then we try to make one majority list from that.

[Johoohno]

I also find it noteworthy that EmpTyger, who has psoted almost every day for a week, all of a sudden disappear when I ask him to be next to claim (post 607). I know he hasn't been posting elsewhere either, but that doesn't necessarily mean there is a "legitimate" reason for his absence.

[Johoohno]

@EmpTyger (on post 622

): Fair enough, I was just getting sick and tired waiting for the claim to roll on. (I have an upcoming vacation and limited access all next week, and I wanted to have some more info to ponder on during my absence).

@DotS:

Also:

I also find it noteworthy that EmpTyger, who has psoted almost every day for a week, all of a sudden disappear when I ask him to be next to claim (post 607). I know he hasn't been posting elsewhere either, but that doesn't necessarily mean there is a "legitimate" reason for his absence.

This is ridiculous.

Still he came back, and rapidly at that!

On my finding you likely scum, it is in your right to brush it off like that, but you could also go back to my post 350 and then skim through my posts from there on to realize that you've stayed on my top list since then. And please do remember that I've got two votes this day. If you really have got a good reason for not claiming (and this really has to be good reasons by now), then you should put them forth. Otherwise you should claim, or produce a list of who's to claim next.

[Johoohno]

I'll be on vacation Monday to Friday (leaving in twelve hours for a weeklong gamefest in a cabin in the Stockholm archipelago with seven good friends) - I'll be back the 13th.

Let's see if everyone has succeeded in claiming by then. It's supposed to be either Fonz or EmpTyger now.

[Johoohno]

Brief check in from vacation (will come back on Sunday).

I still want to see the mass claim completed (EmpTyger or the Fonz is next, depending on which list you go by).

I'm also wondering if we should plan the night actions (or at least a few of them) before we go to night. (this, of course, would be more efficient if the mass claim is completed).

DotS has dropped off my top list of suspicions, and mathcam is a rising star.

[Johoohno]

I'm back!

Unwillingness to claim noted (beside the fact that the Fonz is lurking). That makes town planning for the night very tricky. We then have to rely on ourselves instead of trying to make good choices together.

The things I had in mind is who would we prefer to see with two votes tomorrow (or perhaps: who is not to have two votes tomorrow) as an example. If we know all roles, planning will be much simpler (I'm definitely not saying that everything should be planned, but I think some plans is beneficial for the town).

[Johoohno]

@ The Fonz:

Are you willing to explain your role?

[Johoohno]

Everybody has claimed, and it was made in this order (I've added a confirmed after those that I believe are confirmed due to visible effect and other peoples claims):

Greasy Spot: Roleswitcher

Primate: Deflector

mneme: Serial rolekiller

Mr Stoofer: Townie (516)
Massive: Votedoubler (567)
Johoohno: target switcher (568)
mathcam: role-giver/restorer (572); role assigner (672)
DotS: Redirector (629)
The Fonz: one-shot mirror (668)
EmpTyger: roledoubler (674)
KingPin: Voteblocker (677)
TSN: roleblocker (675)

The way I see it only four living roles are confirmed through night results and other people's claims: Massive, KingPin, TSN and Myself.

I want The Fonz and EmpTyger to be more precise with what their roles do (According to Emp he targetted DotS last night but I don't understand what effect that had).

[Johoohno]

EBWOP: sorry about the goof-up, KingPin and TSN should be in reversed order at the end (the post numbers on them are correct). You've also noted that I didn't write CONFIRMED after the names but after the list instead.

Sorry about that!

[Johoohno]

@ mathcam:

You're the top suspect of today in the town, and for me too. This means you're close to being lynched. Who's on top of your list of suspects?

@ everyone:

Before we lynch anyone today, what do you think of planning for the night together - is it a good or a bad thing?

[Johoohno]

Is one shot-mirror an "common" role? I have asked for a clarification of that role (and of EmpTyger's as well) earlier.

[Johoohno]

@ Mod:

Vote count, please!

[Johoohno]

I don't mind the planning night actions, but it does sound like there are some inherent problems with doing so. First, scum could be lying about roles/targets already. Scum could then use the information, especially Emp's ability to double, to obliterate the town tonight.

Furthermore, EmpTyger is REALLY eager to get me killed tonight (see post 686. Most of his night choice suggestions are aimed at me and that gives the mafia a lot of leeway to kill me and then blame someone else for it. Who are we to know who of all aiming me is lying?

I find this a bit strange since he in the same post tells everyone that mathcam and Mr Stoofer are his main targets.

[Johoohno]

Alright then, are you guys ready to move into night?

I'll put my votes on mathcam within 9 hours from this post (that is, when I make up tomorrow, it's almost 11 pm here now, though keep in mind I'm an early bird). That'll give y'all a few hours to stop me if you want to get something said or done before nightfall.

[Johoohno]

Vote

: mathcam

[Johoohno]

Sorry

Vote: mathcam

[Johoohno]

Phew, from two votes to none in a heartbeat. Well, they caused me nothing but heat and in the end I only needed one anyway.

I think it's time to claim targets again today, shall we just blurt them out or do it in an orderly fashion? I prefer the latter and my list would look like this:
TSN
Fonz
EmpTyger
DotS
Stoofer
KingPin
Johoohno (you might want me in another position, but this is my list - do your own)

[Johoohno]

Night choices:

Primary choices: TSN & KingPin
Secondary choices: Johoohno & EmpTyger

(Now I'm really interested to see who KingPin targeted)

[Johoohno]

@ Dots: The reasons for picking my primary targets was that I have a scummy feeling of TSN and if I switch him with KingPin I would get a clear result on who TSN actually wanted to target (and it was obviously me he wanted, since KingPin has said that his target wasn't me). As for my secondary target I wanted to screw around with one of my other suspects (being EmpTyger).

@ Everyone: I take it EmpTyger believes there to be more than two scums and one serial killer in this setup to be anti town. Seems a bit extreme. Am I alone in this belief? (on the rest of EmpTyger's post 715 I need to read it more closely when I've more awake than now, that guy is all about creating walls of words whenever possible).

For the time being:

FoS: TSN

Seems veery convenient that he targeted a player that can't be confirmed to have been roleblocked (plus the reasoins given in my answer to DotS above in this very post).

[Johoohno]

Emp: I haven't lied about any of my night choices so I'm wondering why you are so certain of that?

[Johoohno]

Johoohno:
You claimed to self-target. Not only was that forbidden, but logically a role like that can’t self-target. (Probably why self-targeting is not allowed in the first place.) Everyone with the possible exceptions of Stoofer and Fonz should know it, and they should be able to deduce it.

Sorry to disappoint you but in my role PM it is said that I can self target but only if I'm
[/quote]
Sorry to disappoint you, but I may self target according to my role-PM (but I must put my name first and not second - that's the only restriction).

[Johoohno]

EBWOP: Sorry about the first line after the quote, was multitasking (going back to my role-PM to check and make sure that I haven't broken any rules.

Also, where did you find that it is a rule breaking actgion to self target?

[Johoohno]

THEORY:

Suppose mathcam was telling the truth. Suppose he had the ability to revive roles. But suppose that his scum buddies are without a role to start with and that as roles die off he could resurrect that role to a scum buddy. This may account for the misdirection of targets last night. It also fits with the "meta" nature of the game.

To tell you the truth, I like this theory a LOT.

Feel free to discuss.

|I think it goes against the surest info we have. Namely, the mod's revelations after death. There was no indication mathcam had a power of any kind.

Yeah, that caught my eye too. While I was waiting for TSS to edit the second post I PMed him to do just that in order for me to make my night choices with full knowledge of mathcam's role.

I think we have four people eligible for votes and lynches today:

• DotS:
  Motive: could actually have been the killer of Greasy Spot N1, and then redirected his scum buddy (mathcam) N1 to leave a trace of doing good while framing mathcam (if it would come to claims?). He also says that the answer to find scum isn't in the night targets in post 720. His claimed actions the last night are unconfirmable.
  
• EmpTyger:
  His claimed actions the last night are unconfirmable.
  
• The Fonz:
  His claimed actions the last night are unconfirmable. It is very convenient to have a one shot action that you want to keep hidden in order to "help" town. (I see this as a possible good thing for either side Fonz is on, but we don't know his alignment or role through any night actions so far).
  
• TSN:
  Motive: roleblocked me N1 and again N2 it seems (a townie target switcher is lethal to have in game if you're scum). His claimed actions the last night are unconfirmable.

The following players are (in my eyes) clear of any mischieavous actions from last night:

• Johoohno:
  Cleared since my actions has caused visible disturbances all nights and can't be a killer yet.
  
• KingPin:
  Cleared since his actions has been visible all nights and then he can't be a killer yet.
  
• Mr. Stoofer:
  Probably cleared by night choices (since two people targetted him the last night and we can't have them both AND him being scum!

Once again this is a late night posting, I hope I got everything where it was supposed to be.

[Johoohno]

@ Fonz

:

• N0 I am the reason EmpTyger didn't have any vote (KingPin says he didn't make a choice, Primate targeted EmpTyger) - This can't be explained away since Primate's ability was a deflector and must have been switched away from Emp in order to remove his vote.
  
• N1 Massive got upset since I had switched his and TSN's targets (giving me the extra vote instead of KingPin as he had planned).
  
• N2 I should have been voteblocked but was roleblocked (since I switched TSN & KingPin).

[Johoohno]

EBWOP: It's supposed to be the other way around in the last item: ... roleblocked but was voteblocked ...

[Johoohno]

@ EmpTyger:

Here’s how I think it would work:

Example:
Let's say that I switch me (primary) and EmpTyger (secondary). Let's also say that Emptyger is a vote thief and that his plan is to steal Stoofer's vote and give it to KingPin.

Result:
In that situation, I would take EmpTyger's top choice (let's say, Stoofer) and he would take mine. I would switch the targets of Stoofer and EmpTyger; Stoofer's target if any would lose a vote and KingPin would gain it; and (since EmpTyger has now chosen me and been target-switched with Stoofer) Stoofer's action if any would happen to me.

Now, it get's a lot more complex if you target me at the same time. Not really sure how that would work.

[Johoohno]

I'm not sure about you at all (especially since you yourself also pick a secondary target, which got me thinking that you know some one else able to force that one out as well - it seems as a lot of us got some kind of weird twist on our role).

[Johoohno]

My list:

As I said in post 736 I see four people as valid lynch victims today, and below is the order in scummyness according to me (most scummy first):
1. TSN
2. DotS
3. EmpTyger
4. The Fonz

I am not really sure on number 3 and 4 though, thay could be tied or even in reversed order because it might be so that I have a problem with EmpTyger's style, and that I liked The Fonz a bit better after his taking my side (or at least looking at tha cases soberly) in post 719 and 727.

[Johoohno]

@ EmpTyger:

• The mod has also called this game a Meta, which to me, seems as an experiment on odd roles in odd constellations (perhaps he enjoys sitting in the end of each night phase trying to create order in the chaos we send him?). Is me being able to self target that much more strange than a single one-shot power in a power infested game, a role duplicator (who himself all the time makes sure he has put up a back-up choice), a vanilla who knows he is the only one or serial role killer?
  
• It seems to me that you want me to be scum now, and try to make me one instead of looking at the information in total. (for instance, I haven't heard you comment on my post 736 or 756, which I actually expected you to scrutinize - but perhaps that didn't fit in with your view of me being scum?).
  
• You not seeing a reason for me to target the way I do, doesn't by any means indicate that there isn't a pro-town reason to do that. I only shows you haven't looked hard enough. I can give the town a reason, but I don't think it is wise since scum will get to know it too (but of course, if there is a large enough group of players who wants me to explain my target choices, I'll do just that).

Sadly, I don't have a vote today. If I had I would agree on voting as I've indicated in my scum list in above mentioned posts (1. TSN, 2. DotS, 3. EmpTyger & 4. The Fonz - with the last two possibly in reversed order, still not certain enough of it).

[Johoohno]

I take it both of you actually read post 736? However, I'll lay it out more clearly in a while if it's still obscure for you.

[Johoohno]

DestroyeroftheSky
• Targeted Greasy Spot (who also died) night 1. Correct me if I’m wrong but (if he was telling the truth) he actually forced Primate to target Greasy Spot and, according to Primate’s description of his ability, that should leave Greasy Spot safe – making all targets bounce off him.
• If he is scum together with mathcam he could’ve tried to win town points N2 by “forcing” his scum buddy to kill mneme. It occurs to me now (this is pure speculation) that if mathcam lost his role N1 and somehow got to know that mneme was the engine behind that, it would make sense for him to want to rid that role, but perhaps he had even lost his ability to night kill, making him a perfect tool to increase his scum buddies trustworthyness by forcing mathcam to target mneme. (I know this speculation isn’t flawless, but there is something in it that appeals to me).
• Do we have ANY solid proof of DotS claimed ability?
• Furthermore, he kind of rings my scum bell with his summaries of the night actions. It is an easy way to win town points without actually adding any new information.

TheSweatpantsNinja
• We have proof of his role from N1 (I’ve marked the first night as N0 in my notes) where he wanted to roleblock me but I switched him with massive making him roleblock KingPin instead. Now the scummy part is that I see my role as quite useful for the town, and I suspect the mafia to see that as well. That would make them interested in me off. But since I’ve come out scummy they want to roleblock me and frame me in some way. I know this is a conspiracy theory, but I don’t find it farfetched.
• We also have the trouble of last night’s choices which doesn’t add up. TSN could easily be the one lying (once again to incriminate me).
• TSN is kind of lurking a lot, keeping a low profile to fly under the radar. And that is also scummy. And for that (and I can't remeber him ever sticking out his neck, only following others around) I've had him on my list for quite some time.

[Johoohno]

EBWOP: Dont get confused on the order of my list it's stil: (1. TSN, 2. DotS, 3. EmpTyger & 4. The Fonz - with the last two possibly in reversed order, still not certain enough of it). The post above was made in alphabetcal order just because that is the order I've done my notes in.

[Johoohno]

Well (my speculation), if he had lost his role and perhaps even ability to night kill he would be useless and could then be sacrifieced and why not earn some extra town points in that process?

[Johoohno]

@ TSN: Is that a serious question of yours? I spent first day in low profile, and has pretty much been in the heat for opinions or choices right from the start of D2.

[Johoohno]

I haven't had the time to do a reread, and my list is mainly based on who could have made last night's kill.

What is your feeling towards my other suspects?

I don't like it how quietly everything has become here now, not everyone has persented a list on their suspects. That is one thing that should be remedied:

present your scum lists please!

[Johoohno]

I was pretty adamant on getting everyone to claim D2!

[Johoohno]

@Emptyger: My night choices has always been detectable (due to meddling with voteblockers and votedoublers), so I really don't udenrstand why you vote me since I can't have done any nightkillings?

[Johoohno]

That's a really weak response.

A weak case can only receive a weak response.

[Johoohno]

Because obviously if you are mafia with a role, you would have other mafia without roles do the killing, or you can kill and utilize your power. That's a really weak response.

Is this your case on me and what your vote on me is based upon? If so I once again ask all players, how many believe there is more than one anti-town player left? I don't (and I have said so before).

Furthermore, TSN even thinks that the mafia can both use an ability and nightkill. I disagree. That would be extremely powerful and pretty unbalanced. We haven't seen any evidence of that in the game either, there has always been players that can't really show what they've done last night (that would be those on my scum list).

Weak case or no, your defense isn't actually a response to the points of the case, its a separate reason not to vote for you that doesn't hold water.

In the quote above it sounds as if TSN thinks the case on me might be a weak one, but despite that he has put me at L-2. Strange play I'd say.

[Johoohno]

@ Kingpin: Didn't you try to block Stoofer's vote today but ended up blocking my instead?

[Johoohno]

I said I switched TSN & KingPin in post 707.

KingPin says in the post after that one that he targeted Mr Stoofer (and Fonz). Somehow I ended up without a vote. I think the math is quite obvious. The only thing that doesn't add up is TSN aiming Stoofer primarily (and me as a back-up), but either he or EmpTyger (who claims to have doubled TSN) could have lied about their night targets/choices.

@ DotS: I think mathcam's both could just as easily mean himself and his partner.

[Johoohno]

@ KingPin: Did you target Stoofer as you claimed? If so, how did your voteblock end up on me then? I am a target switcher, you have seen evidence of that earlier in the game. I don't deny that all the night choices add up, and my guess is that somebody lied about their choices. The easiest explanation is that either DotS, Emp or TSN is the liar (since their actions hasn't really been confirmed any night, except for TSN's roleblock the second night - but I've stated my case on him in post 765).

@ TSN: Can you then state the case on me?

Mod: please prod the Fonz

[Johoohno]

On the topic of last nights actions. KingPin wanted to voteblock Stoofer, but ended up voteblocking me. I switched TSN and KingPin. That tells me that someone changed KingPin's aim, and since I am the only one who's claimed to target KingPin, I am most likely the engine of that.

However, the night choices don't add up correctly: TSN claims to have targeted Stoofer (and me as a back-up), and EmpTyger claims to have doubled TSN's role. If both of them were telling the truths, then both me and Stoofer should be without votes (if I understand every role correctly). Therefore someone has lied about their night action.

TSN lied

This would lead me to believe that he actually targeted someone else primarily (and me as a back-up). Perhaps he targeted Massive, and then killed him. But his secondary wasn't killed, only targeted. That would add up, but demands that extra finesse to how night abilities work.

EmpTyger lied

This could mean just about anything, because I can't remember seeing his ability anywhere in the game.

Do check my logic above!

[Johoohno]

I want KingPin and EmpTyger on the list as well (they can go last just verifying their targets as claimed before night).

Other than that, I don't have any objections to the claim order (though I suggest we lynch scum instead of me, but whom to lynch can be discussed again after the target claims have been made).

[Johoohno]

Aha, TSN has called in and it's my turn already:

DotS and TSN (no back ups, secondary choices or whatever you wish calling them)

[Johoohno]

Emp: DotS has been on my scum list for quite some time (as you can see in my previous posts). Furthermore he wasn't targeted last night and I don't like a player to be unwatched like that. Also, his claimed ability would be quite useful as scum.

I was also suspicious of TSN (though more before than after this night). And switching his target (which has been me, whom I know is town) seems to be a wise move, hoping he will hit scum instead.

I am really busy right now and will be for a few days. Will try to post again this weekend.

[Johoohno]

Quick lunch break post:

Jo,

Did you not see that DotS was first on The Fonz's wagon. He also questioned me and my willingness to vote for Fonz, trying to make me put my vote(s) where my mouth was. That was just yesterday.

The day before he voted mathcam from the get-go! Are you kidding me that you still think that he is at the top of your scum list!!! This is just ridiculous!

Nope I missed that (I've been quite busy since work started some three weeks back, and I've been leaning a bit too much on just the night choices and results).

@ EmpTyger: Chill for a moment, please! Neither I nor Stoofer has got any votes today and it seems as we are your top suspects. Then why are you rushing on with the voting?

About your question to me, who would be mafia if Stoofer isnt that. Since last night, due to the night results, I've reevaluated TSN. And due to KingPin's information quoted above I may have to set DotS free as well (though I would like to read those posts mentioned - anyone care to direct me to them to save me some time?). And since KingPin has been town for along time in my book that leaves me with you EmpTyger.

Though I kind of leans towards Stoofer too. Since I was wrong on there only being one scum left in my reasoning yesterday he is eligible. AND he said he would be v/la some time ago (if the dates correlate that he still would be away, it is likely that he actually missed sending in the kill.

@ DotS: I haven't analyzed the night choices from last night yet, but I see that you are speculating on them on top of this page and as far as I remember, TSS said they were resolved simultaneous.

[Johoohno]

Wouldn't it be good to hear from Stoofer first since he apparantly is back on the site again?

I really don't see a townly reason to rush the voting. Sure, we're far from a lynch or lose situation, but what would happen if neither me nor stoofer is scum, then that situation isn't that far away. We do know that someone is probably meddling with the night choices (unless they are resolved in some intricate order, not understood by us yet, when they are in conflict).

Furthermore, since Fonz was lynched and proved scum and noone died last night, there is no longer any one of us totally cleared townie through night choices only.

@everyone: who's likely scum if both Jo and Stoof are lynched and turns up to be town (just preparing for the worst).

[Johoohno]

@ KingPin: I was asking for a likely scum candidate, not the other way around. Who would you believe to be scum if me and Stoofer flips town on death?

[Johoohno]

I obviously dislike the lynching of me. I really don't see a townly reason to lynch me over Stoofer. I am more valuable to town than Stoofer (I believe the remaining scum would like me lynched since that reduces the risk of getting his night kill backfiring on himself, whereas Stoofer won't do anything during night -except possibly nightkill people.).

Are you basing your vote/wish to lynch me on guts or on any evidence at all?

[Johoohno]

KingPin and DotS are now voting for me and only one of TSN or Emp is needed. Before you sentence me to death (as you all seem to be so eager to do), I'll just give you what I've got for the coming day:

I've played the way I have because I thought my role might be the tip of the tongue for the town (it seems to be powerful to be able to target switch players, with a little bit of luck and skill scum could actually end up targeting themselves). I thought that if I try to appear a bit scummy, I would avoid being night killed. However, somewhere along the way I overstepped the line (obviously) and drew all attention, instead of just some. And here I stand by the gallows, trying to give you a lead on for the next day, since my lynch seem to be inevitable. here goes:

I'm quite intrigued of how KingPin avoids speculating on who might be scum if both I and Stoofer would flip town upon death here and post before this one

Seems to me that the scum either didn't dare to make the kill last night, due to risk of being traced by redirections. Another possibility is that scum forgot to send in the kil, which is only likely if Stoof/massive is the scum. (I didn't get massive's ramblings in his last post, anyone care to explain?). I would like us to try and clear one person at a time if it is possible through the night choices, but I'm not sure this is doable. I've got the feeling that as long as there are redirectors in play the scum might avoid doing any night killings, and now relying on voting off the townies. Naturally I (target switcher) would be a better vote than Stoofer (vanilla?) for the scum.

[Johoohno]

Gaah! Missed KingPin's double posts while writing mine.

Might Stoofer's play have been a way to try and weed out scum through a trap?

Massive, give us your view of things!

[Johoohno]

I did that a long time ago (post 831) and am still waiting for your answer on that question.

However, you strike me as a possible candidate yourself too. If you are scum, I take my hat off. You've played very townly most game, and it's only these last pages that I've been starting to doubt your townmanship.

[Johoohno]

My theory about the setup might not actually hold weight, but I thought that it's possible that the town has one vanilla while scum have one powerrole. Assuming mathcam and Fonz were vanilla, this must be true given the holes in the Night 3 claims, and perhaps this clears Stoofer.

Well we have seen signs of symmetry in the setup (voteblockers and vote doublers, and if we’re to believe mathcam his role kind of fits with mneme). However, massive’s revelation makes it hard to believe his good will to the town.

@ KingPin: You’ve climbed on the scum ladder due to your trying to get away from answering my question in 844 and again in 847. Your answer appears first in post 872. Furthermore, you prefer lynching a more active player over an almost absent player, and the passive player cannot add anything useful during the night if the active player turns out to be town.

But as stated before, I think massive is the play for today. But I don’t want him lynched before he has posted his defence (he said he would gone until Thursday, and that is tomorrow. I think we can wait just another day before lynching him.

A few questions while waiting:
@ TSN: You picked KingPin as next in line after stoof or me. Why? Also, what is your opinion on EmpTyger?

@ EmpTyger: What is your opinion of KingPin and TSN?

[Johoohno]

Weeehaaaa!

@ EmpTyger: feel free to ask.

I'm certainly not an expert on these games (this was my 8th game, and only my second win) and would really appreciate comments on my game play. However, I feel that being a bit scummy was the thing that kept me from being nightkilled (Scums, am I right?) and I thought my role would be an important one and a valid threat to scum night plans.