Mini #582: Meta Mafia Mini! GAME OVER!

[Johoohno]

I'm a bit behind in the reading of this thread. I'll catch up during the weekend hopefully. Meanwhile I'll

unvote

since I need to think, and read, a bit about Primate's claim.

[EmpTyger]

For what it’s worth, no one has yet answered the challenge I issued in [219], for someone to point out something *protown* Stoofer has done.

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TSN:

I don't think it's fair to call me hedging when I'm clearly on one of the bandwagons.

I agree. . . that was intended as a point against emptyger, actually. Perhaps I was a tad too subtle.

Unvote, vote emptyger.

I find primate's claim eminently believable, and emptyger's play has been making me feel off, particularly the attack on mathcam.

Spell it out. What about my play? What about the attack?

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Primate:

<snip>
1) Again, you are assuming an in-game motive for my lurking, or at least you are assuming that I am thinking about in-game matters when I decide to, well, do something else.

Lurking is an in-game action. So, yeah, I’m going to evaluate on an in-game basis. Burden’s on *you* to show otherwise.

2) And please explain how that is different from the hundreds of people who have been replaced out of games or lurked for entirely unrelated reasons.

Because even when you’ve been around, you’re not even trying to participate.

Lurking is not protown behavior.

And not only are you doing something that is hurting the town, but you’re not even trying to do anything about it. All you’ve done is giving a [flimsy] claim, which does nothing towards the main reason I find you suspicious: your lack of participation.

You’re not trying to find mafia to lynch, and you’re giving the barest possible to ward off the danger of your own lynch or replacement. The last time you did something protown was April 22- and then there is another 11-day gap from 4/10-4/21 before that! It’s not acceptable.

Lurking is entirely relative to the person, and you know this. You would hardly hold Anix up the the same level as Battle Mage.

I absolutely have and will hold AniX to a common standard, although as it’s happened, the only 2 times I’ve played with him, he’s happened to be mafia. (I’ve no experience with Battle Mage, so I can’t comment on that.)

[Johoohno]

Okay, I'm up to speed.

I'm not sure of the mass claim part, but I lean towards not claiming. The informed minority will understand so much more from any info we give.

I would also like to shift (at least my own) forcus on other than primate and stoofer, and through that get a read of those two in their actions not involving their own necks. (Just a short comment on the primate claim: seems believable to me, but it's not indicative of his alignment)

The Fonz

I really don't like how the Fonz is trying to keep his head down and then appear all of a sudden to try and and get protown points (post 229)

mneme

I would also like to hear more from mneme (beside his opinions of stoofer)


And a linguistic question to further my understanding of the game (English being my second language): Can someone explain what you mean when talking about strawman and strawmanning (I saw it in an earlier post in this thread and weren't entirely sure of it).

[Mr Stoofer]

I would also like to shift (at least my own) forcus on other than primate and stoofer, and through that get a read of those two in their actions not involving their own necks. (Just a short comment on the primate claim: seems believable to me, but it's not indicative of his alignment)

Two good points here. First, I have spent most of today defending myself, which is the answer to EmpTyger's "challenge" in [219]. Second, in a game like this, I can agree with Johoohno's implicit assertion that the Scum may have abilities other than just nightkilling.

[mathcam]

I can keep a cop alive all game, including keeping roleblocks off him?

That is one of many facets of your purported role. You could also prevent a cop from getting an accurate read on someone by diverting their investigation. In addition, my point was not that there was no way that your role could be used in a doc-like fashion, is that if I were going to describe it in brief, I wouldn't use phrases like "protect EmpTyger" and "doc-like" for your role. (Now that I think about it -- this would be true unless I was really trying to convince people that my ability was pro-town.)

Can someone explain what you mean when talking about strawman and strawmanning (I saw it in an earlier post in this thread and weren't entirely sure of it).

Short version: If Player A is straw-manning against Player B, that means Player A implied (either intentionally or through misunderstanding) that Player B said X, and then Player A refuted X, when in reality Player B said nothing of the sort. It's a way of making it look like you're killing someone in an argument when all you're doing is arguing against things they never actually said.

For the longer version, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Cam

[EmpTyger]

I think people are missing my point about massclaiming. Let me put it this way.

Let’s say there’s a cop, and they get a guilty result tonight. Or, take it a step further, let’s say Player A comes forward claiming cop with a guilty result on Player B tomorrow morning. Is the town, as things stand now, prepared to do *anything* with that information? Are they prepared to lynch B on A’s say-so? Or if not lynch, at least begin by focusing heavy suspicion onto B? And if B is killed and revealed as innocent, is the town prepared to lynch A?

Based on the reactions to Primate, I think not. Primate says no one targeted me last night. I (by way of mod) say that I was targeted. And yet the town seems *less* suspicious of Primate than before his claim.

So, to take it a step further, why go to the trouble of keeping powerroles secret if they can’t provide anything useful for the town? The reason to keep powerroles secret is to prevent the mafia from knowing exactly which roles are optimal to kill/etc. But if we’re not going to be getting anything useful from the roles- then nothing would be lost! So there isn’t really a drawback. But in return, the town would receive (a) the opportunity for mafia to mess up in the claim process and (b) the possibility of the town working together to collectively circumvent whatever the optimal mafia plan is.

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mathcam:
As for what Primate would get out of the WIFOM, to go to the trouble of it, I’m wondering whether it was instigated by massive:

<snip>
Well, I think "doctor" is about the easiest claim to fake in REGULAR mafia games, but I think it will be hard to fake a doctor claim in THIS game. We all know our own roles and have an idea of what else is going on in the game (vote stealing and doubling), so I think if Primate comes back with something ... arbitrary ... then it'll probably be lights out pretty quick. But if the role seems clever enough, I'm probably more likely to believe it.

At lynch-1, with massive not currently voting for him, Primate’s got to take his expectation seriously. He’s claimed that he’s a doctor who protected me N1, and massive is saying that he won’t buy a conventional doctor claim. Maybe that was the best Primate could come up with.

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Stoofer:
What is your current opinion about Primate?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Unvote.

Emptyger's mass claim proposal makes perfect sense. Assuming we can actually get people to support it, do we go in random order? I've always liked starting with one person at random, and then having them pick the next (scummiest) player. Or we could have primate pick the next person to claim, since he already has.

[The Fonz]

The Fonz

I really don't like how the Fonz is trying to keep his head down and then appear all of a sudden to try and and get protown points (post 229)

Explain how a) I'm 'keeping my head down' and b) my post there was an attempt to gain protown points, and not, say, born of a genuine fear that Stoofer would quicklynch.

Primate's claimed ability would be overpowered in the hands of scum. Discuss.

Also, I oppose massclaim. Emp's plan seems to amount to 'we don't know if power roles will produce anything useful, so we might as well give them away.' If someone produces a night result that appears to incriminate, the target can claim, as can anyone else who's dicked around with the results. That still leaves the possibility that there is no explanation for the result, it IS in fact incriminating, and we'd be better off keeping it hidden for now.

[EmpTyger]

[I just realized I’ve been mistaking Johoohno’s name all game. Sorry.]

Fonz:

<snip>
Primate's claimed ability would be overpowered in the hands of scum. Discuss.

I'll disagree. I think it sounds reasonable. It allows mafia to have counterplay for powerful protown abilities, yet scales very well, since it's less useful the weaker the town gets.

Also, I oppose massclaim. Emp's plan seems to amount to 'we don't know if power roles will produce anything useful, so we might as well give them away.' If someone produces a night result that appears to incriminate, the target can claim, as can anyone else who's dicked around with the results. That still leaves the possibility that there is no explanation for the result, it IS in fact incriminating, and we'd be better off keeping it hidden for now.

Reconcile this with what’s happened with Primate. Preclaim: DotS, Johoohno, TSN, Stoofer, and KingPin were voting for Primate. mathcam and I (admittedly uselessly) had indicated that we wanted to vote Primate. Postclaim: TSN and Johoohno have unvoted. mathcam has indicated that he is leaning towards believing Primate. KingPin and I have indicated we are still against. DotS hasn’t posted. I’m waiting on Stoofer to clarify.

So, again, tomorrow, let’s say there’s an incriminating nightaction, and the players involved claim. It can’t be assumed that antitowns don’t also have powerroles, and I doubt that antitown powerroles will be generous enough to clear up confusion without great benefit to themselves. So, the incriminated player could still be innocent or guilty, the one who pointed it out could be innocent or guilty, they both could, or neither could. Anyone who comes forward could be innocent or guilty. And based on reactions to Primate- I don’t like how quick some have been to back off Primate after a tenuous claim, when they were ready to lynch him beforehand, and there hasn’t been anyone coming forward who can provide another explanation- so I don’t see this hypothetical situation being any better, especially after the mafia gets a night to coordinate.

Right now our powerroles are useless, and potentially worse than that. It’s not so much giving them away- it’s trying to get *something* out of them.

[The Fonz]

I dispute that they're useless. We just have to acknowledge that anyone who's responsible for inadvertently causing an incriminating result owns up.

IE:

Investigative role: I have a result on X which is potentially incriminating.
Target: MY role is Y, I guess someone musta redirected or something.
Then, If a town player has redirected, he must admit it. In the absence of town redirection claims, we lynch.

[EmpTyger]

Fonz:

I dispute that they're useless. We just have to acknowledge that anyone who's responsible for inadvertently causing an incriminating result owns up.

IE:

Investigative role: I have a result on X which is potentially incriminating.
Target: MY role is Y, I guess someone musta redirected or something.
Then, If a town player has redirected, he must admit it. In the absence of town redirection claims, we lynch.

But what if Y comes up innocent? Do we lynch X? Basically, how are you accounting for antitown redirection? I have a feeling they're sure not going to speak up to prevent 2 mislynches.

[The Fonz]

True, but do you massclaim in every game on the offchance there is a mafia redirector? If not, why is this game different?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I have a night action that potentially explains primate's night explanation, and as I doubt primate could have known that, I unvoted.

[EmpTyger]

Fonz:

True, but do you massclaim in every game on the offchance there is a mafia redirector? If not, why is this game different?

From what I see so far, I believe that the game has a significant amount of protown powerroles that work in convoluted manners, and I do not appear to be the only one making that assessment. I therefore conclude it to be likewise for antitown powerroles, for 2 reasons: to allow them to blend in with the town, and to counterbalance the high protown powerlevel.

[EmpTyger]

TSN:
Just to make sure I understand, then: you believe that Primate's role implies his innocence?

[EmpTyger]

Sorry for the triplepost- just want to make it clear what I'm asking TSN: basically, iwhether you believe it possible or not for there to be a mafia deflector.

[mathcam]

I think TSN is saying that the apparent contradiction -- that you seem to have been targeted by a role despite Primate's claim -- can be resolved by something TSN knows about last night.

mathcam has indicated that he is leaning towards believing Primate.

I don't think this is the case.

Your argument above notwithstanding, what I find unlikely is that Primate is completely making up his role and chose to pick such a bizarre target of his own free will. But I feel like something is off about his claim -- the fact that he quite directly alluded to it being a doc role (more than once) makes it seem like he had made other plans for what to claim, and later changed his mind (maybe

a la

the Massive post, as you suggested for the WIFOM reason). Between this and the point made in my last post (that the doc language could have been an attempt at making his role sound more pro-town than it actually is), I think I'm actually more convinced that Primate is the way to go than I was before the claim. If nothing else, having a role-deflector just adds a ton of potential confusion to the game, and lynching Primate alleviates that confusion. I'm not sure what the vote count is, but I'm pretty much ready to vote for Primate.

Cam

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Cam is right. I have a night action that potentially (I do need to stress potentially) explain primate's explanation of why he targeted emptyger. So I buy his power claim, at least. He could, of course, be scum still, which is why I support massclaim. Since we can't be certain what roles are pro-town and what roles are scum, we may as well get power claims out. Judging by what has been claimed, I think night actions are liable to be highly confirmable.

[Mr Stoofer]

@

EmpTyger

: To answer your question:

In any event, I'm not one of those people who uses claims to decide whether someone is Scum, unless their claim is

provably

true or untrue. So meh.

In other words, Primate's claim doesn't change my thoughts on him. I don't think we are likely to come to a better decision by trying to work out whether the inconsistencies in his role-claim are more likely to make him Scum or Town (I think people have a word for that round here... oh yes, it's called "WIFOM"). Nor do I think that it would be fruitful to have a debate about whether the ability (if true) is more likely to be a Sum power or a pro-Town power. I don't feel that we are likely to be able to outguess the Mod -- certainly not on Day 1.

[Well, I am sure that the debate would be fruitful but I doubt we'll come to a useful conclusion.]

_________________________

Judging by what has been claimed, I think night actions are liable to be highly confirmable.

I disagree. Primate's claim (if true) seems to be be unprovable since it didn't work. Claims are only likely to be provable if the Scum do not have any powers which would allow them to interfere with Tow powers (e.g. roleblocking, GFs, deflectors, other weird shit). Is that very likely?

[mneme]

TSN: what are the odds that your action would have caused someone to be able to target Emptyger with an ability despite the redirection? Is this more of an 80% chance, or more of a 10% chance?

Your coming forward with a possibliity makes me somewhat less likely to switch to Primate based on the inconsistencies in his roleclaim -- but only somewhat.

[KingPin]

Cam is right. I have a night action that potentially (I do need to stress potentially) explain primate's explanation of why he targeted emptyger.

You have a night ability that explains why Primate targeted Emp? Huh?

Mass claiming, I am against this. In my opinion, we have two possibilities. 1 Scum do not have similar night actions as townies. 2. Scum have similar night actions as townies.
Working under 1: Townies out number scum, it is more likely that townies will make their claims before scum. Scum use this information to make a claim. Scum use this information to plot a more effective night kill. Town still trying to work out false claims amid scum kills.
Working under 2: Townies and scum have similar claims, makes town's job harder to sort out scum, based just on the claim. Night choices would help, however, can be lied about. No real reason for scum to give their true night choices to the town. Scum get beneficial information about townies. Town gets little information about scum.

Under either of the possibilities above, scum come out with more information. And town either have true information or crap, but are more exposed.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Erm, I have a potential explanation for why primate targeted emptyger to not get targeted by anyone, but emptyger still ended up without a vote.

[massive]

Primate:

Are you compelled to use your ability every night?

TSN:

What does the town have to provide to you in order for you to completely clarify what you are claiming / saying? Because you seem to be willing to hint about it an awful lot without any specifics. You also seem to expect the town to act based upon your hints.

[Johoohno]

The Fonz

I really don't like how the Fonz is trying to keep his head down and then appear all of a sudden to try and and get protown points (post 229)

Explain how a) I'm 'keeping my head down' and b) my post there was an attempt to gain protown points, and not, say, born of a genuine fear that Stoofer would quicklynch.

a) You had no posts between May 1st and May 8th, might be a good way for a potential scum to keep a low profile and let the discussion come to a consensus of whom to lynch, especially since you were out of the line of fire.
b) It is a quite obvious comment you come with in 229 (Almost everybody in this game is probably experienced enough to realize that on their own).

@ DestroyeroftheSky

What is your opinion of claiming (which has been discussed since your last appearance here)?

[EmpTyger]

Primate’s currently at 3 votes. Someone needs to put him back up to at least 5. (Unless for some reason people instead finally see the error of Stoofer’s ways and want to vote him instead.)

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KingPin:
For 1: (Scum do not have similar night actions as townies)
I think you are badly overestimating the ability of mafia to devise fakeclaims, particularly on D1 when they haven’t had a chance to discuss this since hearing sample roles.

For 2: (Scum have similar night actions as townies)
Within this game, I am challenging the standard assumption that exposed powerroles is a bad thing. See the hypothetical that Fonz and I have been using. As things stand now, what benefit could the town receive from its powerroles? I don’t see any, as I’ve been trying to show. The presence of roles such as Primate’s and TSN’s (and certainly others’) taint whatever conclusions the town could normally draw.

Essentially, what I’m saying is that:

The town cannot rely on nightactions to win this game.

So I’m not seeing any reason to try to traditionally maximize the town’s success with nightabilities when we might instead be able to use them unconventionally in the day to some advantage.

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massive:

<snip>

TSN:

What does the town have to provide to you in order for you to completely clarify what you are claiming / saying? Because you seem to be willing to hint about it an awful lot without any specifics. You also seem to expect the town to act based upon your hints.

Uh-uh. No rolefishing. If claiming is to occur, it is going to be done in a deliberate, direct, and organized manner. TSN came forward voluntarily because he thought it would be helpful. He is currently under no obligation to go further than what he feels helpful.