Mini #582: Meta Mafia Mini! GAME OVER!

[mathcam]

Of all the things to be lynched for.

I really was a role restorer. Sigh.

Cam

[the silent speaker]

Vote count:

mathcam: 6 (DestroyerOfTheSky, TheSweatpantsNinja, EmpTyger, massive, The Fonz, Johoohno)
EmpTyger: 1 (Mr Stoofer)

With that, mathcam is lynched. He was

mafia

.

It is now

Night 3. Deadline: Thursday, July 24, 11:59 PM EDT

.

[the silent speaker]

Yesterday Johoohno had two votes. Well, balance must be maintained, and today he has none. On the bright side, balance must be maintained, and KingPin has two votes. KingPin, please specify when changing your vote which vote you are unvoting.

It is possible that KingPin's double vote will be the last, since

massive, vote doubler

has died during the night.

Seven players live, six of whom have seven votes between them, and it is therefore 4 to lynch.

[Johoohno]

Phew, from two votes to none in a heartbeat. Well, they caused me nothing but heat and in the end I only needed one anyway.

I think it's time to claim targets again today, shall we just blurt them out or do it in an orderly fashion? I prefer the latter and my list would look like this:
TSN
Fonz
EmpTyger
DotS
Stoofer
KingPin
Johoohno (you might want me in another position, but this is my list - do your own)

[EmpTyger]

I will be without home Internet access 8/5-11, and will be traveling 8/13-17. I do not expect to need replacement- I will be able to obtain Internet access during both periods- but I will be posting less frequently then.

---

<snip>
I think it's time to claim targets again today, shall we just blurt them out or do it in an orderly fashion? I prefer the latter and my list would look like this:
TSN
Fonz
EmpTyger
DotS
Stoofer
KingPin
Johoohno (you might want me in another position, but this is my list - do your own)

Stoofer and I have already claimed. DotS (given that mathcam is guilty and what his role is) obviously should claim last. KingPin obviously will be able to claim honestly if necessary regardless of his alignment, so he only needs to say something if he can counterclaim. So, let’s instead try:

Johoohno
TSN
Fonz
DotS

[DestroyeroftheSky]

I agree with what Emp's saying. Something gives me a feeling that the roles that might redirect actions should all claim last in order of descending notoriety, since the less that is known about who was diverted to who, the harder for scum to fake their targets, so that would put TSN ahead of Johoohno.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I don't mind claiming first, especially as I targeted stoofer, who doesn't have to worry about making a target claim.

Johoohno was my backup.

[Johoohno]

Night choices:

Primary choices: TSN & KingPin
Secondary choices: Johoohno & EmpTyger

(Now I'm really interested to see who KingPin targeted)

[KingPin]

DotS: I agree with you. Which makes me wonder what the hell Johoohno is doing claiming so quickly without giving thought to your post and the idea within.

N-3 Choice:

1st Mr. Stoofer
2nd The Fonz

(Now I'm really interested to see who KingPin targeted)

Why? Why would you be "really" interested? If you were so interested, why not choose to not use your power at all? For that matter, explain to me why you targeted TSN and I at all?

[KingPin]

Night choices:

Primary choices: TSN & KingPin
Secondary choices: Johoohno & EmpTyger

He placed his name as a secondary choice? Does anyone, and I mean anyone, find this a little odd?

[The Fonz]

Phew, from two votes to none in a heartbeat. Well, they caused me nothing but heat and in the end I only needed one anyway.

I think it's time to claim targets again today, shall we just blurt them out or do it in an orderly fashion? I prefer the latter and my list would look like this:
TSN
Fonz
EmpTyger
DotS
Stoofer
KingPin
Johoohno (you might want me in another position, but this is my list - do your own)

This concerns me, since it means you obviously did not read my claim, at least not properly. My ability does not have a specific target, and there are obvious reasons why i don't want to claim whether or not i have used it.

[Mr Stoofer]

I'm here, but as the Token Townie I will let all you power roles argue about claiming order etc. Just make sure someone posts a complete summary of powers/choices once you are done.

[DestroyeroftheSky]

Primary choice: Mr Stoofer to The Fonz
Secondary choice: The Fonz to Mr Stoofer

Nights 1 and 2 again... (note that I got Primate's night 1 choice wrong the first time I posted this.)

Night 1:

DestroyeroftheSky (redirector) - Primate and Greasy Spot, (Mr Stoofer and Greasy Spot)
EmpTyger (role doubler) - Mr Stoofer, (matchcam)
Johoohno (target switcher) - Primate and KingPin, (Greasy Spot and mathcam)
KingPin (vote blocker) - None
massive (vote doubler) - Primate
mathcam (mafia) - ?
Mr Stoofer (vanilla townie) - None
The Fonz (1-shot mirror) - None
TheSweatpantsNinja (roleblocker) - Mr Stoofer, (Primate)
Primate (deflector) - EmpTyger and The Fonz, (Mr Stoofer and mneme)
mneme (role killer) - (?)
Greasy Spot (role switcher) - (?)

Known results of Night 1:
Greasy Spot died
EmpTyger lost his vote
Primate gained a vote

Night 2

DestroyeroftheSky (redirector) - mathcam and mneme
EmpTyger (role doubler) - DotS, (The Fonz)
Johoohno (target switcher) - TSN and massive, (EmpTyger and KingPin)
KingPin (vote blocker) - Mr Stoofer, (EmpTyger)
massive (vote doubler) - KingPin, (DotS)
mathcam (mafia) - ?
Mr Stoofer (vanilla townie) - None
The Fonz (1-shot mirror?) - None
TheSweatpantsNinja (roleblocker) - Johoohno, (DotS)
mneme (role killer) - mathcam?, (?)

Known results of Night 2:
mneme died
Johoohno gained a vote

And Night 3...

Night 3

DestroyeroftheSky (redirector) - Mr Stoofer and The Fonz, (The Fonz and Mr Stoofer)
EmpTyger (role doubler) - TSN, (DotS)
Johoohno (target switcher) - TSN and KingPin, (Johoohno and EmpTyger)
KingPin (vote blocker) - Mr Stoofer, (The Fonz)
massive (vote doubler) - ?
Mr Stoofer (vanilla townie) - None
The Fonz (1-Shot Mirror) - ?
TheSweatpantsNinja (Roleblocker) - Mr Stoofer, (Johoohno)

Known results of Night 3:
massive died
Johoohno lost his vote
KingPin gained a vote

Johoohno, why did you pick those targets?

KingPin's target obviously ended up being Johoohno. But the target claims don't add up.

[Mr Stoofer]

Primary choice: Mr Stoofer to The Fonz
Secondary choice: The Fonz to Mr Stoofer

If you are telling the truth, then the fact that me and The Fonz are still alive, while someone else was killed, clears me, right?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Of making the kill, yeah. It doesn't clear you altogether.

[EmpTyger]

No, actually, astonishingly, Stoofer is right. And there’s more to it than that.

Johoohno obviously lied, and is today’s lynch. However, I think that means that there is 2 mafia: Johoohno + someone else. Because if Johoohno manipulated KingPin- then who killed massive? And vice versa.

Case 1: Johoohno is the manipulator, X is the N3 killer. Johoohno and X may have lied, everyone else is honest.
KingPin claimed to target Stoofer. Stoofer didn’t get voteblocked.
Johoohno switched the targets of <someone who targeted Johoohno> and KingPin.
No one claimed to have targeted Johoohno. (And I strongly doubt massive would have.) So whoever did must have lied about it. The only other possible liar is X.
So this means that the killer and KingPin switched targets- meaning that the killer would have killed Stoofer. But X didn’t kill massive- they killed Stoofer.
The only way this works is if KingPin lied about targeting Stoofer- but then KingPin is the liar, and thus the killer, but we know that KingPin used his ability last night.

So, instead:
Case 2: Johoohno is the N3 killer, X is the manipulator. Johoohno and X may have lied, everyone else is honest.

Case 2A: Assume X is KingPin: Thus KingPin lied about targeting Stoofer- he probably actually targeted Johoohno. But his role is verified.
EmpTyger doubles TSN
TSN roleblocks Stoofer and Johoohno
Johoohno kills (blocked)
DotS forces Stoofer to target Fonz.
Stoofer targets Fonz (blocked)
Fonz ?
massive votedoubles KingPin
KingPin voteblocks Johoohno?

But then Johoohno couldn’t have killed. So KingPin is innocent.

Case 2B: Assume X is Stoofer. Thus Stoofer lied about being vanilla.
EmpTyger doubles TSN
TSN roleblocks Stoofer and Johoohno
Johoohno kills (blocked)
DotS forces Stoofer to target Fonz.
Stoofer targets Fonz (blocked)
Fonz: ?
massive votedoubles ?
KingPin voteblocks Stoofer

But Stoofer was retargeted to Fonz and blocked. He couldn’t have manipulated the voteblocking. So Stoofer is innocent.

Case 2C: Assume X is DotS. Thus DotS may have lied.
EmpTyger doubles TSN
TSN roleblocks Stoofer and Johoohno
Johoohno kills (blocked)
DotS ?
Stoofer targets Fonz (blocked)
Fonz: ?
massive votedoubles ?
KingPin voteblocks ?

An explanation exists: DotS lied about his role. With his actual role, there is no way he could have both stopped TSN from roleblocking Johoohno and manipulated KingPin’s target.

Case 2D: Assume X is TSN. Thus TSN may be lying about being a roleblocker.
EmpTyger doubles TSN
TSN ? + ?
Johoohno kills
DotS forces Stoofer to target Fonz.
Stoofer targets Fonz (no effect)
Fonz: ?
massive votedoubles KingPin
KingPin voteblocks ?

An explanation exists: TSN lied about his role. As a roleblocker, there is no way he can manipulate KingPin’s target.

Case 2E: Assume X is Fonz. Thus Fonz may be lying about being a mirrorer.
EmpTyger doubles TSN
TSN roleblocks Stoofer and Johoohno
Johoohno kills
DotS forces Stoofer to target Fonz.
Stoofer targets Fonz (no effect)
Fonz: ?
massive votedoubles KingPin
KingPin voteblocks ?

An explanation exists: Fonz lied about his role. As a mirrorer, there is no way he can manipulate KingPin’s target.

Case 2F: Assume X is EmpTyger. Thus EmpTyger may be lying about being a roledoubler.
EmpTyger ?
TSN roleblocks Stoofer
Johoohno kills
DotS forces Stoofer to target Fonz.
Stoofer targets Fonz (no effect)
Fonz: ?
massive votedoubles KingPin
KingPin voteblocks ?

An explanation exists: EmpTyger lied about his role. As a roledoubler, there is no way he can manipulate KingPin’s target.

---

Conclusions:
Johoohno is guilty.
Stoofer is innocent.
KingPin is innocent.

One of the following is guilty. Whoever it is, lied about their role:
DotS
EmpTyger
Fonz
TSN

After Johoohno dies, there will only be 1 mafia left, so the mafia won’t be able to both kill and manipulate nightactions. The course of action for tonight is to clear as at least 2 of these 4. Since the town gets 2 lynches, if we get down to 2 unconfirmeds, the town has a guaranteed win.

Does this make sense to everyone? I’ll work on drawing up a plan, but I’d appreciate someone checking my logic.

[The Fonz]

Emp:

I'll go over your logic in a sec: but first, please clarify what 'roledoubling' actually does. Does it mean that the targetted player's action affects both the given target and the backup?

[EmpTyger]

Emp:

I'll go over your logic in a sec: but first, please clarify what 'roledoubling' actually does. Does it mean that the targetted player's action affects both the given target and the backup?

Yes.

[Johoohno]

@ Dots: The reasons for picking my primary targets was that I have a scummy feeling of TSN and if I switch him with KingPin I would get a clear result on who TSN actually wanted to target (and it was obviously me he wanted, since KingPin has said that his target wasn't me). As for my secondary target I wanted to screw around with one of my other suspects (being EmpTyger).

@ Everyone: I take it EmpTyger believes there to be more than two scums and one serial killer in this setup to be anti town. Seems a bit extreme. Am I alone in this belief? (on the rest of EmpTyger's post 715 I need to read it more closely when I've more awake than now, that guy is all about creating walls of words whenever possible).

For the time being:

FoS: TSN

Seems veery convenient that he targeted a player that can't be confirmed to have been roleblocked (plus the reasoins given in my answer to DotS above in this very post).

[The Fonz]

Emp:

I'll go over your logic in a sec: but first, please clarify what 'roledoubling' actually does. Does it mean that the targetted player's action affects both the given target and the backup?

Yes.

That clears both Stoofer and Joh of any wrongdoing, unless you or TSN is lying, surely?

[DestroyeroftheSky]

I need to look over Emp's post.

One of the reasons I'm questioning The Fonz's claim is that my role pm sort of implies that any "night action" involves targeting. The Fonz's is simply 'activated', based on what he's told us.

Like TSN said, Stoofer is only really cleared of not making the kill last night. But we don't know whether he actually submitted a target or not.

And I think Fonz is right. I assume Roleblocks trump all other night actions. That would make sense.
Assuming that Emp and TSN have claimed truthfully and their actions went through uninhibited:
Emp doubled TSN. TSN targeted Stoofer (which remained the same even if swapped with KingPin's target by Johoohno) and Joohoono. Both of them should have been roleblocked.
Neither Stoofer or Johoohno.

An immediate question that arises is: How did KingPin's target get diverted to Johoohno?
No one else has claimed a target manipulating role. So I'm pretty sure we've got at least one scum in Emp, TSN, Johoohno and KingPin.

Emp, I've been meaning to ask, why did you target me Night 2? Also, can you conceive a way

your

night action might be doubled?

I'm really tempted at this point to stop looking at at night actions and focus on interaction again.

[DestroyeroftheSky]

EBWOP:
Neither Stoofer nor Johoohno could have made the kill last night.

And actually, that's all we can say if Emp and TSN's claimed actions went through. So I don't agree with the Fonz entirely. Stoofer and Joohoohno aren't cleared of "any" wrongdoing. Just any wrongdoing last night.

[EmpTyger]

<snip>
One of the reasons I'm questioning The Fonz's claim is that my role pm sort of implies that any "night action" involves targeting. The Fonz's is simply 'activated', based on what he's told us.
<snip>

Fonz’s claim is definitely the odd one out, but I’m not sure I want to consider that suspicious, though. I mean, Stoofer’s also counts as odd in that regard.

And I think Fonz is right. I assume Roleblocks trump all other night actions. That would make sense.
<snip>

Not necessarily. An argument could be made that targetswitching goes first.

An immediate question that arises is: How did KingPin's target get diverted to Johoohno?
No one else has claimed a target manipulating role. So I'm pretty sure we've got at least one scum in Emp, TSN, Johoohno and KingPin.

That’s the point of [715]- essentially, someone must be lying not only about their targets, but their role.

Emp, I've been meaning to ask, why did you target me Night 2?

I considered your innocence proven.

Also, can you conceive a way

your

night action might be doubled?

All I can think of is if I targeted Fonz.

I'm really tempted at this point to stop looking at at night actions and focus on interaction again.

You’re not the only one. Johoohno’s play is itchy enough that I don’t think it’s a problem today. But I’m really worried if there’s a third mafia- and Johoohno’s shiftiness and the extra actions last night make me think there have to be.

But I’ve been tossing the nightaction puzzle around my brain all day, and the more I think about it, the more I think we’re missing a critical piece of the setup. I’m tempted to wonder if the mafiakill doesn’t count in the same realm of actions as the rest- but then the mathcam/DotS thing is too coincidental. Or I’ve wondered whether the retargetings are meaningless- but the vote manipulators are too visible for that. Or whether I found 1 potentially false assumption I’m assuming that Johoohno’s described his ability honestly. Or even whether mathcam was telling some truth about his role, and restored GS’s or Primate’s ability back to the mafia N2- but I don’t trust mathcam at all. No one targeted Johoohno- so how did he get voteblocked? It must have been due to someone who lied, and therefore mafia- yet I can’t imagine the mafia going to so much trouble just to get one of their own voteblocked.But with the evidence we have, I’m having trouble coming up with a theory- any theory- to explain (1) Johoohno’s lie, (2) Johoohno being voteblocked, (3) Stoofer *not* being voteblocked.

[Mr Stoofer]

so the mafia won’t be able to both kill and manipulate nightactions

How do we know this? I'm wondering if this is a slip.

[Johoohno]

Emp: I haven't lied about any of my night choices so I'm wondering why you are so certain of that?