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Post #56 (isolation #0) » Sat Feb 18, 2023 7:18 pm
Postby Klick »
VOTE: mykonian
Hello friend! I'm excited to meet again soon, if only for a short time.
In post 50, Alisae wrote:
I like Wavelength so far. I like his read on Aureal and I like he was the first one to mention it, I kind of thought that the post from Aureal seemed pretty disingenuous.
I think Wavelength's read on Aureal comes from town almost every time, but I also think Aureal is town.
In post 18, Alisae wrote:
Andante you seem really excited to play mafia!
FACTS
Why is that? Not this game seems to imply that you were recently mafia.
Does having recently been Mafia have any bearing on the likelihood of someone being Mafia here?
Answer: no, it does not.
VOTE: Alisae, defend the honor of Roger Rabbit!
VOTE: Aureal
This does not read like someone who is actually trying to understand what Alisae is doing, and then asking if it is town or scum. It reads like someone who wanted to pick someone to call scum.
In contrast to this interpretation, I didn't read Aureal's post as legitimate solving OR as a serious attempt to take a position on Alisae. I read Aureal's post as mostly a continuation of RVS with a slight push to create *content* out of it. That interpretation then got backed up by post 51:
In post 49, Wavelength wrote:
This does not read like someone who is actually trying to understand what Alisae is doing, and then asking if it is town or scum. It reads like someone who wanted to pick someone to call scum.
Like jumping around yelling that someone is scum for no real reason isn't half of what the early game is.
And I feel like scum struggles to hold that perspective.
Hello friend! I'm excited to meet again soon, if only for a short time.
It is always really nice to see you, for however long you can manage.
We had these grand plans of playing more online and I don't think that worked (maybe with some others?) , maybe we should still try that by playing warm up boardgames before the meet?
As for the game, I don't think andantes excitement is alignment indicative. It seems pretty common. Outside that, I would lean town here for now on the content of her posts, not the tone.
Lisa asked whether I played with Dat and I played one mini last year where he was scum (Andante was in it as well). Of the others, if I played with you it's been ages ago, I don't remember how you play.
Wavelength has got a point about Aureal, that's the A I should have gone for.
vote: Aureal
I'd love to play some games leading up to the meet! Any evening after 9 GMT works for Bella and I, though one of us might have to duck out to get the little one back to sleep. Outside of that, I'll keep an eye on Discord in the coming evenings and see if anything fun is happening.
Like Ari, I'm also interested in hearing more about what Andante has posted that you think is towny.
In post 71, Aristeia wrote:
What content of Andante's are you townleaning her for and why?
Not sure I'm helping anyone if I answer this. For one, it's 3 pages in and Andante is probably the person I feel most confident I can read anyway, so I might as well wait till I'm not leaning one way or another from a handful of posts. There's no pressing need to answer, Andante isn't even being voted so I imagine you all agree she's pretty town. I also don't have to tell the scum who's the obvious town.
That's a lot of words to say that I don't like you and Klick asking about a townread 3 pages in. Go find some baddies. May I suggest Aureal?
I disagree with your assertion that pushing for scum is the correct way to play the game over finding town
I don't think anything Andante has done has been particularly towny thus far
In post 80, Klick wrote:
Have you ever seen town go through the motions before?
Probably.
Got anything better?
Aureal's way of playing thus far lines up really well with her stated way of approaching the game in a way that runs counter to the reasons she's getting early suspicion
In post 103, Klick wrote:
Aureal's way of playing thus far lines up really well with her stated way of approaching the game in a way that runs counter to the reasons she's getting early suspicion
She's an easy target
And that doesn't bother you, that they more or less open with: "this is how I always play, please don't vote me for it". Instead of just.. playing?
It's an easy target because it's the right target. Going for Andante we are going to do at some point, I don't think they get through an early game often. She's easy. You are the pot calling the kettle black here.
Not really I'd expect that kind of response from town more often than scum
This is a difference in philosophy where you seem to look for how you think town *should* play when they are doing what they should be doing
Whereas I look for how I think town *will* play without any particular expectation of quality
I remember this from playing with you previously
The only game I remember playing with Andante was a game that just ended and she was the most widely townread scum player
I didn't realise she normally doesn't get through early game?
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Post #117 (isolation #13) » Sun Feb 19, 2023 7:47 am
Postby Klick »
In post 116, Aureal wrote:I suppose at this point I have a vague townread on Alisae. While they're being a bit uncharitable, I do like that there was a thought process behind the talk about past Mafia games; and more importantly, that they didn't feel the need to force a conclusion out of it.
I understand how you got to this conclusion and think it's a natural one to come to. As someone who knows Alisae's playstyle, I can tell you that this describes how they'd play as either alignment.
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Post #118 (isolation #14) » Sun Feb 19, 2023 7:49 am
Postby Klick »
In post 68, Alisae wrote:
This isn't me saying Klick is a wolf, I think Klick is a read best read when they've developed a body of work and comparing that body of work to the context that is the game.
It's pretty easy for them to be townie pretty early on and I imagine if they're wolf they're able to fake that.
Basically I think this is probably a good general guide for reading Alisae as well!
In post 131, Andante wrote:
I like 128, are you thinking Aureal not town?
Yeah, I'd vote there but I don't want the wagon to grow too big just yet
bruhh it's not "I'd vote there but that makes it e-1" please explain why you're currently voting me then if you have no interest in my wagon
I actually hard townread Aureal and have talked about it in the thread
I just wanted to see what you'd say if I hard countered my thread narrative to see if you really hadn't read the thread. I think the answer is probably yes?
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Post #180 (isolation #27) » Sun Feb 19, 2023 3:18 pm
Postby Klick »
Meh this doesn't go anywhere immediately and I should really sleep
I'm obviously not as confident about you as I'm projecting but I'm really not feeling anywhere near as comfortable about you as I'd like to feel atm and I have several other townreads
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Post #206 (isolation #28) » Sun Feb 19, 2023 8:50 pm
Postby Klick »
In post 194, Alisae wrote:
Much turmoil over if to hold off or to just shoot
I'm just going to shoot.
Curious as to who is informed of having my exact rolecard. I've done
A LOT
of thinking about this as well as what I think the setup could look like and I feel like it could be productive to massclaim who has this information. I am very curious to see who is willing to come out with it and I think I can find wolves based on the number of people who claim to have this information
In post 180, Klick wrote:
Meh this doesn't go anywhere immediately and I should really sleep
I'm obviously not as confident about you as I'm projecting but I'm really not feeling anywhere near as comfortable about you as I'd like to feel atm and I have several other townreads
where are you at
Don't worry I didn't miss this I'm just going to respond to it when I actually have time and am not skimming
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Post #214 (isolation #30) » Mon Feb 20, 2023 1:14 am
Postby Klick »
Have I not been previously clear about my Aureal townread? Genuine question, because both yourself and Andante seem to not be considering it in the posts you're making. I don't want Aureal at E-1 because I have a fairly solid townread on Aureal, and I feel like that should be obvious.
There's nothing in particular that I currently want out of this gamestate.
I guess if I dive a bit deeper into that, I want to not disturb it, because I feel that often when I try to influence the discourse with specific intentions, I fail to get anything that significantly influences my read on the game. I find much more success getting an accurate read from watching a game develop naturally without large influence from me. So I want to encourage a gamestate that feels naturally developed to me so that I can solve it properly.
Outside of that, there are a few things that I don't want. I don't want Aureal eliminated. I don't want Wavelength eliminated. I don't want you eliminated, I think.
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Post #217 (isolation #32) » Mon Feb 20, 2023 1:29 am
Postby Klick »
I basically agree with that assessment
They feel somewhat detached from what they're arguing in the thread in a way that doesn't sit right with me
There are a couple of reasons I asked you that the way I did
Part of it was because engaging you on a conversation about Alisae might help me sort you
I also feel like us talking about them could help me put my thoughts about them into words and process them better because prior to your 216 I felt vaguely scummy in their direction with very little understanding of the reason why I felt that
You specifically are someone I feel are helpful with that because I trust you to have a fairly nuanced thought-through perspective on the things you think about the game or to otherwise be able to have those thoughts
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Post #533 (isolation #37) » Tue Feb 21, 2023 8:11 am
Postby Klick »
In post 503, Datisi wrote:
what are your current reads and why is gimli town
I totally buy into Gimli's read and perception of the game being a town one
I'm not going to say Gimli can't be faking his current take on the game, but if he is he's putting a lot of effort into making it look genuine AND he's sending the gamestate in a direction that I already think is largely accurate and so I'm very happy to give him a pass and a sheep vote for the moment
In post 503, Datisi wrote:
what are your current reads and why is gimli town
I totally buy into Gimli's read and perception of the game being a town one
I'm not going to say Gimli can't be faking his current take on the game, but if he is he's putting a lot of effort into making it look genuine AND he's sending the gamestate in a direction that I already think is largely accurate and so I'm very happy to give him a pass and a sheep vote for the moment
TOWN
Wavelength
Aureal
Gimli
LEANING TOWN
mykonian
2/4 SCUM
Aristeia
Alisae
Datisi
Andante
hardomgusing his primary pusher is literally the easiest move for a scum under pressure to do.
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Post #544 (isolation #41) » Tue Feb 21, 2023 8:21 am
Postby Klick »
Gimli fwiw out of Ari/Andante I have a slightly stronger opinion on Andante being a potential wolf
I'm fine with being on Aristeia regardless but if you're feeling similarly about both of them then Andante's my personal preference
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Post #549 (isolation #43) » Tue Feb 21, 2023 8:25 am
Postby Klick »
I know I'm thinking critically and I can show that in my own time
I don't trust your motives for wanting me to expand so I'm deliberately being a bit cagey about it
I know that's frustrating to deal with but I think I'll get something out of it!
In post 544, Klick wrote:
Gimli fwiw out of Ari/Andante I have a slightly stronger opinion on Andante being a potential wolf
I'm fine with being on Aristeia regardless but if you're feeling similarly about both of them then Andante's my personal preference
I'm a scumsiding potato who's horrible at mafia, of course I'll sheep you on andante. I have no preference between andante and aristeia, my ari read is just louder because I'm interacting with her and we're 1v1ing. I think the way you caught andante on page 5-6 and their subsequent AtE are >>rand scum and I'm inclined to go there.
VOTE: andante
Sounds good VOTE: Andante
Don't discredit yourself though!
As much as I enjoy being in a special category, you do have meta on me.
Is the meta helping or not?
In terms of, is it being used to inform my read? Of course. I know you a lot better than anyone else at the table.
But it's also probably the reason you're at 'leaning town' instead of just 'town'. I don't think your play looks massively different between town and scum. You play towards similar ideals regardless. The main difference here being that the things you're pushing atm feel like things you'd genuinely believe you're on the right track about.
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Post #580 (isolation #49) » Tue Feb 21, 2023 11:59 am
Postby Klick »
You also don't read as... I guess 'concerned' is the best way I can think to put it? I don't think you're thinking much at all about the thread's perception of you. I think you would be if you were scum.
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Post #583 (isolation #51) » Tue Feb 21, 2023 12:06 pm
Postby Klick »
Gimli is like night and day from when we were scum together
Gimli's got a real perspective in this game and is passionate about it and I think it's because he believes what he's saying
Scum Gimli wanted to keep options open
This Gimli is eliminating options, limiting himself, because he's solving this game
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Post #587 (isolation #52) » Tue Feb 21, 2023 12:46 pm
Postby Klick »
In post 584, Wavelength wrote:
You don't think repping into a slot that had already hit e-1 would influence what you are perceiving as "keeping options open"
Because I vaguely agree with Ari's point that landing on a scum pool of exactly the people already voting for him is interesting. Although, my thought was more that he could be trying to not ruffle other players feathers into voting him.
I also don't think that he has very many town reads (other then you or me) that he really married him self to so strongly that he could not walk them back fairly trivially as read progression.
I believe the actual pressure on Herta was far weaker than everyone involved wanted it to be
No one had legitimate reasons to strongly scumread Herta, not at a level where they were anywhere near guaranteed to be the lim today
I believe that makes this logic fall apart. There's no reason for Gimli to assume that the votes on Herta were going to stay on Gimli
Gimli's reads have a depth and nuance to them. I believe Gimli has put actual thought into his reads at a level that requires believing them. Sure he 'could walk them back fairly trivially as read progression' but that's just looking at the end result of what he posted without getting into the nitty gritty details.
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Post #594 (isolation #53) » Tue Feb 21, 2023 1:18 pm
Postby Klick »
In post 592, Andante wrote:
"vote andante... andante answer"
yeah no thanks, I told yall, I'm a little preocupied with stuff right now, I'm glad we have to lim me right now, right this very second. like, yall want to lim a slot that's done nothing? when I told yall I will definitely give stuff this weekend? like, good logic
What do you think of the people who were considering Herta an inevitable elimination for, uh, not being around?
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Post #601 (isolation #54) » Tue Feb 21, 2023 2:06 pm
Postby Klick »
I don't believe that Andante has genuine conviction in the things she pushes. I think the energy she has for the things she pushes is a front to seem like she cares a lot about what she's arguing about.
The thing that Andante does as town is she has thoughts off the cuff and presents them basically unfiltered. In older scum games I believe she has a lot of trouble imitating this play. In her most recent scum game, she imitated this by presenting lots of potential thoughts, but all at a surface level, without the *belief* behind them. She basically pushed whatever was convenient for her at the time, there wasn't a consistent thought process.
I think her play here matches pretty well with that. She's not posting as MUCH as she did in the last game, but the basic idea of 'I'm going to present this random idea I have and not hold onto it as a belief!' is still there.
I don't believe that Andante believes the things she's posting in the thread.
I'm so sick of hearing yall's meta. Stop pretending you have a reason you SR me. You SR me for doing nothing? nice one. I TOLD YALL. I'll be active this weekend. Deadline 3 days? ok so what? by the start of d2 you'll see stuff
anyways, whatever, if yall vote me out before I even have a chance to figure this out, so be it. if I'm scum don't I literally have to have a partner? So how does it make sense to lim me before I make it very clear who they are? you all know I talk a lot regardless of alignment.
I'm just so over reading the exact same thing everytime I look at this game
I've not said you've done nothing
This overreaction is what I'd expect from scum
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Post #613 (isolation #57) » Tue Feb 21, 2023 3:23 pm
Postby Klick »
In post 612, Alisae wrote:
Ari does not feel like she’s engaging w/ the thread as a wolf
I didn't feel like her interaction with me was very good? She seemed annoyed that she couldn't debunk my suspicion more than a genuine suspicion of me not answering her properly
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Post #614 (isolation #58) » Tue Feb 21, 2023 3:24 pm
Postby Klick »
There's a world where it's literally just Andante/Datisi and we've got very little in the way of solvable material
I'm hesitant to call it that though when you and Ari still feel like potential scum