SMITE Role Madness Mafia (OVER AT LAST!)

[mastin2]

vote xombie

Xombie is also town. Don't touch him, either.

Uh, what? Is it 100%?

I already said too much by defending ZX; don't make me say too much on Xombie, too.

[mastin2]

Will you ask dram?

I am doing what I can.

If it helps, though, TD's roleblock on me would not have succeeded. Side-effect of my decision to no-action last night.

[mastin2]

If that is the case, then the question is. Not "is ZX town", but is "is mastin town"

Easily provably so, if you take my word for it for a little while longer. As early as D3, but the longer the better before the reveal.

[mastin2]

Not when your alignment is very questionable

FINE.

Xombie is, 100%, not scum.

Happy?

[mastin2]

Since you were so sure AP was town, why didn't you offer yourself up for lynch instead?

Pretty sure I did--and if not, that I was strongly considering it.

at the very least, i think scum are sucking up.

Maybe so, but I get the impression it's TO Solar Wind.

[mastin2]

TheAceofspades (3): Xombie, Ooba, vezokpiraka
RachMarie (3): Bitmap, Farside22, Heartless
Skybird (2): Mastin2, Cephrir
Imperium (1): Magua

^These are the wagons we currently have that I can see myself supporting. (Don't freak out, Imperium, I said "can see myself supporting", not "would currently support".)

In particular, I'm strongly considering switching to RachMarie. Theace wouldn't be a horrible wagon, either.

[mastin2]

ZZZX
Xombie
Metal Sonic <--If not town, then third party playing the part of town. Soooooooooooooooo, no touchie.

Bitmap <--Still think play was protown and role was town.
FourTrouble
Solar Wind
Cephrir
The Mask
Magua

Heartless <--Knocked down a few pegs because Anti just proved how dangerous he can be as scum. (His scumplay is no longer the same, AND he no longer has the debilitating lurking weakness. Meaning that my ability to read him is...far less reliable than before.)
beastcharizard <--General feeling that this is not beast playing as scum, combined with the feeling that the wagon on him wasn't towndriven.
vezokpiraka

farside22

TSO
Imperium

ooba
theaceofspade
Ankamius
TheWayItEnds <--Simply hasn't left a memorable impression yet, combined with predecessors' scumminess.
Skybird

Something like this.

[mastin2]

Whoops. Rach got left out. Place her below TWIE yet above Skybird.

[mastin2]

I want some to shot Pere.

Would prefer this be done strategically, but kind of for that.

I would also be perfectly happy with a PV lynch.

As would I day2 or 3 or 4, depending on how night goes and if it can be managed right.

I feel this could be relevant. PV's role, as Sonic so well points out, benefits him to die. IF his silence was a night action, then him wanting to die D2 onward is perfectly logical: he could use it, AND then debilitate town with his death.

[mastin2]

Also, relevant, I get the distinct impression that if AP wasn't silenced, scum are very, very, VERY likely to be among the lurkers. (Such as, say, Rach. Yes, V/LA, but I get a distinct YCBAII vibe from her posting.)
If beast is town as I suspect, then that is particularly likely: scum lurking at the end of the day for the most part, as to not attract unwanted attention onto themselves.

Not all the scum would be. There's always the Cephrir of the game, a scum who is hard to catch and reasonably active. (Except when they're not.) But the majority, very well could be.

[mastin2]

...Incidentally, that lines up with my readslist rather neatly: Skybird, TWIE's slot (well, not TWIE's fault since they were getting replaced, butstill, technically true that they were inactive albeit for reasons that are 100% null), Rach, and Ank are all players you can undoubtedly say have lurked rather a bit. Theace had a fair amount of lurking, and ooba wasn't nearly as active during deadline as he could have been. (TSO sort-of counts as well.)

Not all of them are gonna be scum, butstill, can't be the only one who's seeing this.
In contrast, players like FT, Solar Wind, Magua, Heartless, and to some extent Ceph were extremely active.

[mastin2]

Hey, you're still in the town club, Anti.
Just not the conftown club.
What'd you expect? My markers for reading you were destroyed--not just the activity one which you knew about. The other ones as well. The subtleties like tonality, the way you push things, and whatnot. You kinda obliterated them all. So now all I have is my best guess.

[mastin2]

I'd like to know more about why mastin is focusing on us four from an activity level. I understand there are other stated reasons, but why focus on that specifically?

I'm not?

Lurking is just the latest bit of ammo to the already-existing bits and pieces of evidence.

[mastin2]

(Thus, the reads have grown somewhat-stronger as a result. That's the change.)

[mastin2]

Theaceofspades (4): AngryPidgeon, Farside22, TiphaineDeath, vezokpiraka
vezokpiraka (3): Skybird, Aeronaut
FourTrouble (2): The Mask, Ooba, iHouse
TiphaineDeath (2): FourTrouble, Cephrir
AngryPidgeon (1): theaceofspades
BRantz (1): PeregrineV
Cephrir (1): Xombie
The Mask (1): Ankamius
theaceofspades (1): RachMarie
-Blonde- (1): Mastin2
Imperium (1): TSO
iHouse (0): beastcharizard
Not voting: ZZZX, Solar Wind, VysePresident, imperium

Theaceofspades (8): AngryPidgeon, Farside22, vezokpiraka, mastin2, xombie, PeregrineV, Cephrir, Rachmarie
FourTrouble (1): The Mask, iHouse
vezokpiraka (1): Skybird
TiphaineDeath (1): FourTrouble
AngryPidgeon (1): theaceofspades
Rachmarie (1): Ooba
Cephrir (1): TiphaineDeath
iHouse (0): beastcharizard
Not voting: ZZZX, Solar Wind, VysePresident, imperium, TSO, Ankamius, Aeronaut

This is the first wagon to go above (4), and it exploded up to double its size. My best guess as to the cause is theace posting the neighborhoods-plural supposed-slip which I don't think was an actual slip.
What I DO think, though, is that,
-This explosion was not towndriven,
-...But that doesn't mean theace is town. Rather the opposite, I actually think that it's quite possible or even probable that scum, being aware of who scum are, are more sensitive to scumslips their partners make and jump on them more than actual town would...thus, they bus, figuring only a matter of time before the masses move against theace. It's something to keep in mind about Ceph (sometime, I really need to buckle down and sort him fully), but Rach is the real stand-out name, here.

Theaceofspades (6): AngryPidgeon, vezokpiraka, mastin2, xombie, PeregrineV, Rachmarie
TiphaineDeath (2): FourTrouble, Cephrir
FourTrouble (4): The Mask, Aeronaut, Ooba
AngryPidgeon (1): theaceofspades
Cephrir (1): TiphaineDeath
Mastin2 (1): Imperium
House (0): beastcharizard
Aeronaut (0): House
Not voting: ZZZX, Solar Wind, VysePresident, TSO, Ankamius, skybird, Farside22

As evident by the VC, by this point Aeronaught had stolen House/Magua's vote. Using it creates a FourTrouble counterwagon...which, frankly, does not look towndriven. At all.

Theaceofspades (6): AngryPidgeon, vezokpiraka, xombie, Rachmarie, Farside22, ZZZX
FourTrouble (3): The Mask, Aeronaut
TiphaineDeath (3): Mastin2, Farside22, TSO
beastcharizard (3): Skybird, Cephrir, Imperium
Cephrir (2): TiphaineDeath, FourTrouble
RachMarie (2): Ooba, PeregrineV
AngryPidgeon (1): theaceofspades, Magua
VysePresident (1): Solar Wind
Skybird (0): beastcharizard
Not voting: Heartless, Ankamius

Deadline is 28 hours!!!

Notably, theace wagon sort-of reforms, regaining farside and having ZX join. The only names on here even remotely possible to suspect are farside, vezok, and Rach, but vezok and farside both look fairly okay in stark contrast to Rach.

As counterwagons to theace, we have FT (not good), TD (I forget whether farside's a doublevoter herself or not, but I believe she mentioned it not being a moderator error, but the wagon is decent yet not great), and beastcharizard (horrible). Of note, PV has hopped off of theace. And deadline is approaching.

Theaceofspades (5): AngryPidgeon, vezokpiraka, xombie, Rachmarie, ZZZX
AngryPidgeon (3): theaceofspades, Magua, Imperium, Solar Wind
beastcharizard (3): Skybird, Cephrir, The Mask
RachMarie (3): Ooba, PeregrineV, Farside22
TiphaineDeath (2): Mastin2, TSO
Cephrir (2): TiphaineDeath, FourTrouble
FourTrouble (2): Aeronaut
Skybird (0): beastcharizard
Not voting: Heartless, Ankamius

The counterwagons continue. The AP one begins, and isn't stellar but not horrible. The beast one is still not great. The Rach one is frankly a bit suspect to be honest. So basically, the only wagon at this point which looks towndriven is the theace wagon.

AngryPidgeon (5): theaceofspades, Magua, Imperium, ooba, Vezokpiraka, Rachmarie
Theaceofspades (3): AngryPidgeon, xombie, ZZZX
beastcharizard (3): Skybird, Cephrir, The Mask
RachMarie (2): PeregrineV, Farside22
TiphaineDeath (2): Mastin2, TSO
Cephrir (2): TiphaineDeath, FourTrouble
FourTrouble (2): Aeronaut
Skybird (0): beastcharizard
Not voting: Heartless, Ankamius, Solar Wind

Now

the AP wagon looks horrible. Theace wagon, now dieing, is all town, and other wagons have been stale for a long time.

AngryPidgeon (8): theaceofspades, Magua, Imperium, ooba, Vezokpiraka, Rachmarie, Ankamius, Heartless, TSO
beastcharizard (5): The Mask, Solar Wind, FourTrouble, Xombie, Cephrir
Theaceofspades (2): AngryPidgeon, ZZZX
RachMarie (2): PeregrineV, Farside22
FourTrouble (2): Aeronaut
TiphaineDeath (1): Mastin2
Cephrir (1): TiphaineDeath
Skybird (0): beastcharizard
Not voting: Skybird

The AP wagon continues to grow with suspicious names on it. The beast wagon does at least look mildly town, so it's not impossible that beast is scum. Butstill, theace wagon has all-but disappeared. Players not moving their votes at this stage are pretty much lurkers: SKybird, TD to some extent, Aeronaut, farside, and PV.

AngryPidgeon (9): theaceofspades, Magua, ooba, Vezokpiraka, Rachmarie, Ankamius, TSO, Skybird, Heartless
beastcharizard (5): The Mask, Solar Wind, FourTrouble, Xombie, Cephrir
Theaceofspades (2): AngryPidgeon, ZZZX
RachMarie (2): PeregrineV, Farside22
Imperium (2): Mastin2, Imperium
FourTrouble (2): Aeronaut
Cephrir (1): TiphaineDeath
Skybird (0): beastcharizard

Imperium leaves thanks to doing some AtE, but Skybird joins.

AngryPidgeon (11): theaceofspades, Magua, ooba, Vezokpiraka, Rachmarie, Ankamius, TSO, Skybird, Heartless, Imperium, The Mask
beastcharizard (5): The Mask, Solar Wind, FourTrouble, Xombie, Cephrir
Theaceofspades (2): AngryPidgeon, ZZZX
RachMarie (2): PeregrineV, Farside22
FourTrouble (2): Aeronaut
Cephrir (1): TiphaineDeath
Imperium (1): Mastin2
Skybird (0): beastcharizard

Imperium, of course, rejoins the wagon.

The only true scum candidate off the wagon would be TD, and even then not likely. (The vote on Ceph was fairly useless, though.) farside's fairly doubtful. (Especially given her wagon of choice.) Beast is theoretically possible, but I sincerely doubt it. (His vote, not having any value at all, might as well be placed anywhere he pleased--so on a scumread such as Skybird makes perfect sense.)

And given that PV was probably fine dieing early, he'd want his posts to be fairly wifomy so I think he was telling the truth when saying the wagon on AP was fairly scumdriven.

Figures of extreme interest in this analysis are theace, Rach, and to a lesser extent, ooba. Figures of minor interest are Ankamius, TSO, Skybird, and Imperium to various extents.

[mastin2]

ZZZX
Xombie
Metal Sonic <--If not town, then third party playing the part of town. Soooooooooooooooo, no touchie.

Bitmap <--Still think play was protown and role was town.
FourTrouble
Solar Wind
Cephrir
The Mask
Magua

Heartless <--Knocked down a few pegs because Anti just proved how dangerous he can be as scum. (His scumplay is no longer the same, AND he no longer has the debilitating lurking weakness. Meaning that my ability to read him is...far less reliable than before.)
beastcharizard <--General feeling that this is not beast playing as scum, combined with the feeling that the wagon on him wasn't towndriven.
vezokpiraka

farside22

TSO
TiphaineDeath
Imperium

TheWayItEnds <--Simply hasn't left a memorable impression yet, combined with predecessors' scumminess.
ooba
Ankamius
theaceofspade
RachMarie
Skybird

Updated with some minor adjustments to the order. theace, notably, moves WAY down. TWIE is slightly up, but mainly by virtue of the others moving a bit down.

[mastin2]

It feels like your conf-biasing your reads based on the reads you actually have. I don't see anything new or insightful coming from analyzing the wagons beyond pointing out where your scumreads and townreads are.

The order of the reads changes.

Players are becoming slightly more or slightly less likely to be scum off of it.

Notably, theace and Rach both more likely.

[mastin2]

The problem I'm having with this is that the idea behind this theory is that scum were bussing and then suddenly stopped for no apparent reason. Why would you bus and then 48 hours to deadline suddenly decide to not bus any more? It doesn't make much sense.

Well, could be fond-of-distancing-but-not-bussing, as in, they didn't want to actually LYNCH their scum partner,
It could be they continued TO bus, just switching to help keep the wagon from going through,
Or it could be they just reconsidered and decided bussing was too much a risk.

And let's face it.
In this game.
There's too many players who are town off of claims.
Too many players who are town off of vouches from other players. (At least MINE has a set expiration date.)
Too many players cleared off of play that people think is town.

So I am using my own intuition to sort through it.
And my conclusion is that players like theace and Rach are exponentially more likely to be scum, just as PeregrineV was.

[mastin2]

So I would roughly order it Xombie > mastin2 > ZZZX > TWIE

Totally going Burden of Proficiency on y'all and saying Ankamius when town is actually competent.

Listing three players I know without a doubt to not be scum as top scumreads means Ank is either having a

really

off game or is scum.

[mastin2]

Also, I do say this.
Actually confirmed.
As in proven.
I can say 100% that ZX and Xombie are both not scum.
This isn't some claimed role shenanigan of theirs, or something they claimed and proved yet which means nothing beyond proving their power exists. (e.g. double-voter.)
It's an actual, established, hard-lined fact about them.

For others defending a player.
Be honest.
And tell me.
Can the same be said of your defendant?

[mastin2]

you have them as more town that you had AP before his lynch, aye?

Yes.
AP was 25/90% town (on play/circumstance+play).

They're 100% town.

[mastin2]

What games have you played with me as town?

I've seen you here and there.

[mastin2]

i spent the better part of day 2 thinking beast was the sk until mastin p much claimed it in the thread

If there is one thing I am not, it is subtle.

Which is why I'm so exasperated this game about how much ranting and raving I have to do in order to get you trusting me.

[mastin2]

Honestly neither the farside nor the ooba shots are bad.
If farside and/or ooba are town, they're definitely assets and their loss would be bad, but both are not exactly shining the obvtown light everywhere. Either flip would potentially give more info, helping to clear things up a little more.

[mastin2]

Do you ever get tired of trying to read me as scum mastin?

Never gets old, no.

[mastin2]

Mastin: your scum reads please.

*cough*

ZZZX
Xombie
Metal Sonic <--If not town, then third party playing the part of town. Soooooooooooooooo, no touchie.

Bitmap <--Still think play was protown and role was town.
FourTrouble
Solar Wind
Cephrir
The Mask
Magua

Heartless <--Knocked down a few pegs because Anti just proved how dangerous he can be as scum. (His scumplay is no longer the same, AND he no longer has the debilitating lurking weakness. Meaning that my ability to read him is...far less reliable than before.)
beastcharizard <--General feeling that this is not beast playing as scum, combined with the feeling that the wagon on him wasn't towndriven.
vezokpiraka

farside22

TSO
TiphaineDeath
Imperium

TheWayItEnds <--Simply hasn't left a memorable impression yet, combined with predecessors' scumminess.
ooba
Ankamius
theaceofspade
RachMarie
Skybird

Updated with some minor adjustments to the order. theace, notably, moves WAY down. TWIE is slightly up, but mainly by virtue of the others moving a bit down.

I mean, I haven't bothered to update the list and if I did then I might rearrange the names somewhat, but there's no big huge lifechanging changes in it.

[mastin2]

Mastin - iirc you pride yourself on being able to read cephrir. What's your read there?

He's not truly the player in this game I pride myself for being able to read. (That'd be AP.)
He's more on, like, Nacho levels I'd say overall. (Or ETL levels for that matter.) I get it right more often than not, especially if given time, but it's not something that comes 100% of the time. That being said, the read is hovering at town right now, and it's not just on claim, but the claim certainly contributes. I simply don't think he's scum, but the read's not 100%, not even close.

[mastin2]

I would appreciate it if you or Nacho gave your 100% bullshit-free read on Solar Wind.

My read on Solar Wind is that I don't bother to get a read on Solar Wind. I just townread them and let the scum eventually take care of ffery.

I simply hold no interest in going down paranoia lane and dealing with thoughts that they're scum. I don't think they are, not off of their content, so it's a townread legitimately I suppose but my townread is like AJT% when you're asking me to express it in terms of 0-100%; it's an entirely different language.

[mastin2]

BeastCharizard (2): Imperium, Skybird
FourTrouble (0):
TiphaineDeath(0):

I'm slightly against the beast lynch.
I'm

heavily

against the FourTrouble lynch.

Sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo......

VOTE: TiphaineDeath.

[mastin2]

If beast is scum wouldn't there be more resistance

To be fair...he has me as a defender.
Albeit admittedly a weak one.

[mastin2]

FT's intial questioning\analysis looks fine but it's the pushes he chooses that I have problems with: Anamikus, Vezok, TD,

Ceph

, beast,

mastin

The two bolded are fine I guess.

Funny, 'cause the bolded are the only two that

are

problematic as far as I'm concerned.

@People with experience with mastin scum - does she have a history of asking team mates to claim fake stuff the following day? (Like asking TD to claim RB on her to make TD sound more town. mastin-scum would probably know people won't lynch her on the basis of that claim)

On the contrary, I specifically advocate truthclaiming as much as possible...ESPECIALLY in role madness. I might lie if circumstances demand a lie of me, but it'll be a little white lie, not a flat-faced bold lie.

[mastin2]

Why Ffery specifically?

Because ffery's more nightkillable.

Normally I'd throw support for this wagon immediately since I'm leaning town on the other two slots, but the fact that Mastin is the only one on it right now is making me have second thoughts about whether I'm on the right track about beastcharizard or not.

Town thought: "maybe my read on Mastin is wrong and she's actually town, pushing scum".

Scum thought: "Mastin's scum, so her push on a player can't be on scum".

[mastin2]

The lynch today is between FT and TD.

FT's incredibly town, sooooooooooooo, TD it is!

[mastin2]

That leaves Mastin, Skybird, Ace, Beast, TWIE, ZZZX, Cephrir, Rach, TSO, Xombie, and Heartless.

Xombie's 100% not scum.

[mastin2]

I think TD's roleblock claim + vote on mastin was incredibly town.

And I thought it was incredibly null!

[mastin2]

/ugh, have to look at td again....
or i can sit on my ass and wait for tth to do it for me
yeah... i might do that

Anti, if you don't get yer lazy ass into the game I'm gonna scumread you off of sheer policy alone.

[mastin2]

- Do you think TiphaineDeath was lying about roleblocking you?
- Do you think his claiming of roleblocking you was scum or town?

I have none.

Finally, the question I'm most curious about is, why is FourTrouble so town to you?

Because of everything FT has posted? There's literally nothing scum in his posting. At all. It's just town. Throw in players with experience playing with him vouching for him, and I'm not inclined to lynch him any time remotely soon.

Xombie's "where did my vote go" feels stupidly fake. Feels like calculated townslip. Do not like at all.

Xombie is, 100%, not scum.

Seriously, people, get the message across. YES, I can know both this and that ZX is 100% town. YES, they're both true. YES, both can be proven. Just not something to be done today.

[mastin2]

You never really do anything with it even after I vote them.

No shit I didn't do anything with it after you voted them. Your vote was empty. I knew it was empty. Both heads of Imperium knew it was empty. Your vote, as far as I'm concerned, didn't exist; it was still just me.

I don't get the basis behind your Imperium read or lack of follow-through or anything really.

I'm giving it time. Nacho reached out to me.

[mastin2]

Dumb question: why did td get brambles.

It's nothing on my end.

[mastin2]

...... I think given how much people trust her and how much she was asking not to be targeted groupscum would find her the perfect choice to send out for a kill. And also, THERE WASN'T A GODDAMNED KILL!

I'd like your conclusion better if someone else already hadn't claimed to have blocked the kill.

This might point to derp town?

Quite the opposite, that looks like classic scum-scum to me.

[mastin2]

Also, their alignment regardless, Imperium's townposting right now.

("Huh. Their alignment regardless?" Yes. As in, it looks town. It's probably town. It has more motivation to be town, especially since the thoughts in it are without a doubt driving for town. But not impossible to come from scum. It makes me feel better about them, but I'm not gonna go flippantly calling them conftown all of a sudden off of it.)

[mastin2]

I feel more comfortable speaking in the neighborhood to discuss than the spam feast which is here.

About roles and related spec, this is fine.
About reads, those should stay in the thread.

100% town doesn't mean 100% "can ignore the accepted rule".

[mastin2]

ankamius, we're never going to get a td lynch. tried and failed.

It only failed because YOU gave up too early.

[mastin2]

Why Ffery specifically?

Because ffery's more nightkillable.

:/

Well, it's true.

I've seen both of you in like 10-30 games or so. Somewhere in the middle for F-16, somewhere in the high range for ffery.
Only once or twice have I seen F-16 get nightkilled.
Only once or twice have I seen ffery

not

get nightkilled.

[mastin2]

Heartless has been a little more proactive in the neighborhood than they have been here, and that makes me feel a little better than I would otherwise, but they still worry me a bit. Nonetheless, it isn't really at the brim of my radar (pretend this analogy made sense please thanks) and I expect I'll have a lot more to read them on by the time I would start to get worried about things as they are now. If that makes any sense.

Funny, because it makes me feel the opposite.

HERE.
ACTIVITY.
IN.
HERE.

(Unless you have

damn

good reason not to.)

[mastin2]

well ok mastin YOU want to talk about anything specific?

No, but keeping content, ACTUAL CONTENT, in the 'hood for only your (potentially-not-even-town) neighbors to see, instead of everyone, ticks me off because then only THEY have access to it, and that means only THEY use it. Inversely, if you're scum, it also makes it easier to manipulate the 'hood because only THEY see the content which if posted in-thread would be subject to the scrutiny of all.

There are things to keep in the 'hood. Game content is not one of them. (With maybe one or two exceptions.)

Also, much better.

[mastin2]

There's no other scumteam.
Guarantee you, 100%.

[mastin2]

(Now, third parties, sure, there can be more than one, but an actual scumteam? No.)

[mastin2]

K so I decided I'll do a full pbpA for one player this week. Who should I do it for?

Hey, ZX, know that whole "one or two exceptions" I was talking about?

A full pbpA is probably a good example of a fair exception.
If you do it for just one player, sure, in here is fine.
If you do it for every player, then it'd probably be best to do it in the PT, and present the important highlights in-thread since that amount of spam is, well...spam.

If you do it, your decision where it goes, of course.

[mastin2]

How come our neighbourhood's protection on Beast isn't seen as relevant yet mastin's doing the same to multiple people and it is?

Combination of player weight and player trust.

Players might not be entirely sure I'm town, but they hold enough trust in me to take my word for it, especially given that it's ME.

Players hold very little confidence in you being town, certainly don't trust you, and don't particularly put as much stock in your opinions.

Hard truth, I know.
Mind you, I AM not-happy with the beast lynch and am advocating for the TD lynch.

The question is, if you want to save beast so badly...why aren't

YOU

?
(Especially given your TD push previously.)
TD's been gladiated.
beastcharizard, your protection, is the current default.
There's never going to be a better chance to get TD lynched.

So why aren't you going all ballistic to save beast?
Why are you being so passive?

[mastin2]

Mastin, why do you prefer TD to beast?

Because TD has been a minor scumread of mine the entire game, whereas beast has been a nullish-town read of mine the entire game, where he continues to remain.

[mastin2]

BeastCharizard (7): Imperium, Skybird, Cephrir, theaceofspades, FourTrouble, TheWayItEnds, Metal Sonic
FourTrouble (4): Ooba, magua, vezokpiraka, Heartless
TiphaineDeath (2): Mastin2, Farside22
Not Voting: Rachmarie, Ankamius, ZZZX, Solar Wind, beastcharizard, The Mask, Bitmap, Xombie, TSO, FourTrouble, TiphaineDeath

I mean, on the beast wagon, the best names on there are Ceph and FT and MS. It's not godawful, but it's not great.
On FT, we've got better names, but still a general "meh" vibe.
Honestly it wouldn't surprise me if all three were town and scum are hanging near-exclusively in the Not Voters, lurking this whole thing out because they don't care about the outcome.
But if one of them IS scum.

It'd be most likely TD.

[mastin2]

Not Voting:

Rachmarie

,

Ankamius

, ZZZX, Solar Wind, beastcharizard, The Mask, Bitmap, Xombie,

TSO

, FourTrouble,

TiphaineDeath

As just a small sample selection.

[mastin2]

Mastin, if people thought you were so good, why did AP get lynched despite you trying 100% for hours to stop it?

Because, in spite of my efforts, I can in fact lose battles. Every time I get lynched as scum, I lose a battle. Every time I get lynched a-la Tales, I lose a battle. I'm good. People listen to me a lot. They place a lot of faith in me. They don't listen to me always, they don't worship me as a god. So I will lose battles.

And AP was a battle I lost.

[mastin2]

Every time I get lynched as scum, I lose a battle.

(Correction:

almost

every time, L4D would like to remind me. )

[mastin2]

Mastin, why do you prefer TD to beast?

TSO's not putting money where his mouth is.

Repeatedly.

He wants beast alive.
He shouldn't be, y'know.
Sitting in the Not Voting pile.

[mastin2]

No, I have plenty of reasons for TD to be above beast.

The you-not-backing-your-words-up just contributed to it, but is mainly about you.

[mastin2]

FT's analysis could be valuable, but it's a bit flawed. First off, dram said not to outguess him, and it's all setup spec. Plus, 5 scum is to me more likely than 6 by my gut feeling. I'll comment on what I can, though.

So for example, Pere was lynched, so the probability that farside, Ankamius, or myself are scum goes way down.

I happen to think that if there's a neighborhood with more than one scum in it, it'd be yours, and Ankamius would be it.

Which just leaves the Ceph/Ooba/Heartless/Rach neighborhood, which is tough, because any one of them could be scum, based on the analysis. At least one of these players is mafia, and if there's any neighborhood where there's 2, this is probably it.

I can also see two scum in there, but all of Ceph/ooba/Heartless are pretty town right now for their own reasons. Rach, however, is probably scum.

Beast. He's in the TSO/Vezok neighborhood. Vezok's town, so that increases likelihood that TSO/Beast is scum.

Well, you know MY feelings there.

Scum tend to be more trusting (i.e. revealing information to their neighborhood) than town, because they're just trying to manipulate townies, whereas townies get paranoid and don't want to be the first to make a move, generally-speaking.

Generally speaking my ass. Only naive people hold this viewpoint.

[mastin2]

Anti, your reads are awesome.
But on that point, you're 90% likely to be wrong.

[mastin2]

(Well, by which, I mean, your read may or may not be correct on those two neighborhoods. But your reasoning is 90% likely to be wrong so IF you're correct it's right-for-the-wrong-reasons.)

[mastin2]

My working theory for the remaining scum are: Solar Wind, Ankamius, TSO, and RachMarie.

Know how you always seem to be on to something?
Always have fairly good reads when you get down to it?
But there's a small imperfection keeping it from being perfect?

Pretty sure that imperfection's Solar Wind.

I can't believe mastin points to the vote count and all the non voters. Suddenly non voters, vote and no one says shit.

Oh, I noticed alright.

To be PERFECTLY honest, it's

probably

a nulltell. Town realize, "oh, right, probably should vote" so do, after having been called out for not doing so already and it having slipped their minds. Scum realize, "oh, shit, she's actually right, better vote" so do, after having been correctly called out on their presumed preferred tactic.

That having been said

, I still fully get where you're coming from, and frankly? I realize it should be a nulltell but I'm seeing it as being that indicator of a scum mindset.

[mastin2]

Yo.

So I've read the stuff since my last post.

I have no words for anything that's been said.
I might do a readslist later tonight, butyeah. Literally nothing of extreme relevance. Just wordswordswords for the most part, by and about players that I have zero interest on focusing on.

[mastin2]

-Happy scumday, MS.
-I

may

have obligations on the teams already since I got asked. (I forget the full team, would need the PMs to confirm, but I THINK it was Mara, notscience, and someone else.)
-As you can tell by my commentary, nope, nothing to say about the posting right now.

[mastin2]

I was thinking "Tammy and the boytoys" would actually be a thing.

It could be; I'd need to ask!

[mastin2]

SCUM ROLEBLOCKERS/JAILKEEPERS DON'T RUN INTO THE THREAD AND GO "OH HEY I BLOCKED YOU, NO KILL, NOW DIE"
I KNOW HE'S CALLING YOU SCUM AND I KNOW HE DOESN'T AGREE W/ YOUR READS BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN HE'S SCUM

Problem is I can see TD as scum doing exactly this, scumbuddies be damned.

TD's not necessarily scum, though, you are right.
But of the three, he's still the one I'd most want to lynch.

[mastin2]

I've built myself to a place where different people expect different things of me and I can't possibly do them all at once.
You think town Ceph is aggressive and confident.
Nacho thinks literally the opposite of that.
What is a boy to do?

Welcome to my life.
Particularly as scum, mind you. It's why I knew the only way I was winning L4D was by getting myself dead; so many players there had so many different expectations of me that catering to one would be scumclaiming to the other.

[mastin2]

Vig should shoot Ceph or Mastin.

If a vig shoots me, call them a serial killer instead.
NOT happening. I'm the WORST possible shot to take, ESPECIALLY when I said I can prove stuff.

[mastin2]

Also,
-Still thinking that all three options today kinda suck. If there's scum, it'd be TD but getting the impression more and more of all-town.
-Still not seeing basically anything in the recent pages that I'd call actual game content. Just...words, in some cases quite toxic words.
-Ozgin I could very easily defend by pulling a Sonic, but I'll let Ozgin answer for himself what should be painfully obvious.

[mastin2]

Preemptively defending a player who is more than capable of defending themselves, before said player comes in to do so.

[mastin2]

ffery's readslist is one i can get behind

Eh, not 100%, but far more yea than nay, yes, I can.

[mastin2]

I continue to have nothing to add. :/

[mastin2]

(Andrius is still a scumread btw. Justsayin'.)

[mastin2]

Since this asshat has just loverized me, in the event he is somehow not hammered, VOTE: TD.
This is pretty gay.

Ozgin, you shoulda loverized TD.

[mastin2]

Andrius, F-16, or Espeonage are likely the culprits.

(Psst. It's Andrius.)

[mastin2]

/Caught up.

Why is it that all these players that I consider friends and hold deep respect for seem to have gone ballistically insane?

[mastin2]

For anyone having trouble with Zelink posts: I started not reading them and my head doesn't feel like exploding anymore.

^This. I decided either scum or miniTWIE, so either way, win-win in getting rid of.

[mastin2]

Don't shoot ooba.

Yes, shoot Andy instead.

[mastin2]

Why do you think I'm not a good guy, mastin?

Well, you

could

be, albeit of the useless-obnoxious type, but your posting simply doesn't look town; it looks like scum faking town when not being obnoxious. (Obnoxiousness being a person-thing, not a player-thing, usually, it's null. What's in your play aside from the obnoxious stuff simply doesn't give townvibes, and to the contrary gives scumvibes, albeit admittedly super-minor ones.)

You're basically the weakest scumread possible to have with it still being considered a scumread and not a nullread, but it

is

still technically a scumread.

mastin, why should I shoot Andy?

Because I have a decent amount of Rach experience and I'm reasonably certain this was her scumplay...and while I am no Andy expert, I'm reasonably familiar and competent in reading him, too. I've gotten a decent gauge at reading him, and he's playing far closer to what I've come to expect of his scum self rather than his town self. Furthermore, meta aside, just on general play, his slot has been lurky both actively and traditionally (low content, low post ratio), and what little content provided has been less-than-stellar.

...Plus just general gut and ~feelings~ on the slot.
Not to mention, given the above factors, killing Andrius would not be that large a loss to the town even were I to be wrong, and would give us the information as to that fact.

[mastin2]

Vote: No Lynch

Also, justsayin', this better be Tammy.
(Though I'm reasonably certain it is.)

[mastin2]

mastin, why should I shoot Andy?

His unengaged posting in thread screams scum meta: when town, he tends to dig deep and provide content no matter what a slog the game is. As scum, he lets the obstacles build up around him and overwhelm him.

^What Nacho said.

[mastin2]

Also, please don't shoot any of the Egyptians - Andy\Cephrir\heartless. We have a good thing going.

A good thing = scum manipulation.
Just sayin'.

[mastin2]

Takeback: Zelink's ripping into Andy looks town.

[mastin2]

Mastin said ZZZX is 100% town.

Can't forget Xombie. I'm defending him, too.

[mastin2]

I don't see why we're trusting mastin's read on ZZZX, for example. mastin hasn't been a particular bastion of town this game.

One day.
One.
damn.
day.

You'll see.

[mastin2]

ZeL1nK, Imperium, Espeonage,

F-16

<---this hood thinks it's all town, but is probably right imo
TSO, Ozgin, Vezok, Magua <---this hood thought it was all town earlier and is almost certainly wrong
Ooba, Cephrir, Heartless, Andrius <---this hood mostly thinks it's all town but we maintain a healthy dose of paranoia
Metal Sonic-senpai, Skybird, TWIE <---this hood thought it was all town; it is almost certainly wrong
Farside, FourTrouble, Ankamius,

PV

<---probably scum here too
Theaceofspades, Mask,

AP

<---this hood has never claimed to think it was all town

The only one I disagree on is your 'hood. I think your 'hood has one scum. I think that Ank is by far the most likely scum in that hood. Other than that, not much to say.

[mastin2]

I actually quite agree with ZeL1nk here - everyone covering for each other here is complete nonsense. I don't see why we're trusting mastin's read on ZZZX, for example. mastin hasn't been a particular bastion of town this game.

Tbh as an outsider pov thats true. But our hood is aweasom

What makes your hood awesome? Why are you so sure you guys are all town?

(Skybird continues to look scum, justsayin'.)

[mastin2]

If you can prove it, prove it.

That's the thing; we can!

Just not today!

One.
damn.
day.

[mastin2]

(Small addendum to what I said earlier, IF there's scum in the first neighborhood, it's Zelink, but otherwise at this point I'm thinking very well could be right on that one being all-town.)

[mastin2]

The paranoid part of me is thinking that TiphaineDeath roleblocking him did stop the Mafia kill.

Not possible, given that I no-actioned N1. I may or may not explain tomorrow, but basically, no-actioning N1 allows my future actions to be stronger. If all goes according to plan, in fact, with luck (I did admittedly make a little bit of a hiccup that might mean less success than I'm hoping for, and constantly. talking. about. our. relationship. does. not. help.), I won't even need to fullclaim or even half-claim. (No, I am not elaborating, because if you couldn't tell, a large part of this plan relies on me NOT talking about things that we know.)

[mastin2]

VOTE: FourTrouble
Shoot Skybird.

For the record, these aren't compatible if I remember things correctly.

Also, need to read the rest of this post to see if there's anything I'm missing.

I'm afraid I'm out of time, though, so have to leave here. Be back...much, much later.

[mastin2]

Sorry I've been gone for the last few days. If you read my blog (which, let's face it, nobody does), you'd know that I've been going through some seriously harsh times as of late, particularly over the weekend.

In this case, basically two all-nighters in a row doing nothing but studying to so much as keep my job. I joke all the time that I'm paid to sit around and do nothing, but truth is, getting a recert is absolutely BRUTAL, taxing both physically *and* mentally.

Good news is, won't have to do it for another two years; I passed. Bad news is, I've been left in a position where I practically siteflaked, albeit over a short timeframe, and it's going to take me quite a while to do "damage control", so to speak, on what my absence caused.
(14 PMs. FOURTEEN. Still sorting through them!)

Soyeah, that's why I haven't been around for the last four days or so.

I'd say I'm giving this game my attention now, but that's a lie. It's already past midnight, and I've got SO much work to get done on here.

I'll do what I can, but...well, this is what it is. Comes with the territory. :/

(Also, spread the word. I might not get it out to everyone I need to tonight.)

Speaking of which, what page was it that I last said I was on? First Unread Post brings me to 260, but...6154 looks like the post to resume from.
Oh. And know how I said I could prove myself today?
THAT was dependent on me ACTUALLY submitting a NIGHT ACTION which by virtue of me NOT BEING HERE, I did not. I know I promised I could, but said promise WAS dependent on me actually submitting my night action, which I didn't, so you'll have to wait one more day. This sitewide absence is easily verifiable btw; the last time I visited and the last thing I saw was in fact this game. After it, I completely vanished until just now. (I'm actually a bit ticked off, even.)

Like I said, I'll do what I can.

[mastin2]

(Should be noted that it wasn't a total loss, though, for ~reasons~. Let me put it this way, someone's probtown instead of conftown now. I'd elaborate, but that'd be extremely detrimental.)

Also, request, day not to end any time soon; I need to coordinate something with my masonry.

[mastin2]

Also,

Vote: Ankamius

.
(Sadly not role information, as the bold tags indicate.)

Will be giving this game a thorough thinkthrough later.

[mastin2]

Yeah, no.
I can still SORT-OF claim and SORT-OF confirm myself today, but it is only SORT-OF because of the no-action, thus would be HIGHLY sub-optimal. I'm missing like 400 posts (though I did see the Ceph/whatshisname/Mask deaths, but I haven't checked what their PMs actually are), so I don't know the full happenings of the game. But what doesn't change is that despite not being caught up, I still know something you all don't, something which me actually ACTIONING would prove.

If I were scum, presumably my scumbuddies would be allowed to make my action go through, no?
I didn't get the chance to because I wasn't around last night.
Thus, I have no scumbuddies.

Also, no harm in me saying the probtown, especially considering he's on MS's shortlist.

Sonic, don't vig TSO.
I can't confirm he is town, sadly, but he IS *probably* town.

[mastin2]

What if I told you that I have access to both, Sonic?

Remember all my 'crumbs about being a scumhunting god?
Not a joke; my role, if used properly, is a gamebreakingly powerful role.

I suppose there's no harm in revealing this part.
While I submitted no action last night, that doesn't mean nothing happened. In this case? One of the weaker aspects of my role allows me to know that, with a 95% margin of accuracy, TSO targeted you last night, MS.
Since you're alive, and no scum role had reason to target you last night, easy equation to make, but I can't get a 100% accuracy because of all the stuff surrounding my full role.

I'm ticked off because while the info I got was USEFUL, it wasn't the gamebreakingly powerful utilization that should have been put into place.

[mastin2]

(Yes, the WEAKER aspect of the role is this 95%-tracker-result, in spite of me NO ACTIONING. If you were standing where I was, you'd understand. You would also, therefore, understand exactly why I am so hesitant to out this info.)

[mastin2]

(Okay. I'll fully admit. My role is not as gamebreakingly powerful as I thought at the gamestart, because I misread my PM, and with a couple of mod clarifications, he revealed it wasn't as strong as it could have been. But what I have is still freakin' awesome, so long as you place TRUST in me to not be scum and ALLOW ME TO USE IT, to use my ACTUAL action.)

[mastin2]

And, hey.
Let me put it this way.
We have three dead scum in less than three days.

You can wait one damn day longer and have a little faith in me to trust what I'm doing.

[mastin2]

(In other words, we have enough dead scum that you can afford to risk it and trust me for a little while longer.)

[mastin2]

Uh.
Whoops.
Wrong game.
Two dead scum and a dead SK in less than three days.
So slightly less can-trust-me, but seriously, that's still good enough to be can-trust-me-for-a-day figures.

[mastin2]

One of the weaker aspects of my role allows me to know that, with a 95% margin of accuracy, TSO targeted you last night, MS.

Is this true, TSO?

Even if TSO doesn't know it's true (i.e. the possibility of being redirected), it's true.

So the way I figure it, he's either town who targeted Sonic,
Or someone who was redirected to Sonic, something I can only see being done on town.
Scum wouldn't action on him with a role.

[mastin2]

And I really hope that your action makes you clearly 100% town.

Yep. In fact, last night might be a happy accident in helping me there. It certainly wasn't my original plan, but what I've got will still work well.

[mastin2]

There's a very very glaring assumption you're making (scum won't target me) and very nasty slippery slope

Thus, probtown instead of conftown.

[mastin2]

Wait, nevermind.

Mod error, apparently.

The mod informed me just now that you weren't targeted by TSO, Sonic, so, uh, forget what I just said.
(I can't exactly explain the nature of the mod error, just know there was one.)

[mastin2]

I know speculating about mod errors is bad and all, but this kinda makes me think that TSO did target Sonic but the action didn't go through.
It's a mess to trudge through right now, and I would very much prefer we not deal with it for the time being.

[mastin2]

[REDACTED]

[mastin2]

Well, hate to be the bearer of bad news after my post just yesterday, but, uh, more bad news for my activity--
Today, one of my uncles died. I'm not emotionally compromised (basically the only thing I feel is sadness, but it's sadness for not feeling anything and not true sadness), and I'm not flying to Michigan for the funeral (I live in Washington), so I'm not gonna be V/LA in any definite terms, but, well, my mom IS going to the funeral.

And her departure will assuredly affect my availability in some manner or another. Just be on guard for it; this is me saying I'll probably be normal, but COULD have reduced activity. In the meantime,

Wait. I protected sonic last night, but I didn't protect-protect him. I made him action immune.

This is probably the answer.

I'll tell my buddies about a

further

mod clarification I got last night contradicting what I last said, but point is, TSO likely visited Sonic, and regardless of whether his action succeeded or failed, I shouldn't have known about it.

[mastin2]

A recert is something mastin knew was coming up.

Yes, but I did not know it was going to be THAT time-intensive; I was blindsided.

So on Friday after Cephrir had been shot, does mastin, knowing that she's not going to have any time over the weekend, jump ahead?

If I was scum you can be assured I would.

But on Friday? I didn't even know Ceph was dead.

And it's a well-established fact that I pay ZERO attention to pedits. I ignore 'em.

Which, one notes, was made hours before the deadline.

Which I had no clue we were anywhere near.

I don't pay attention to deadlines.
Well-established fact. (You could even look at my own dang modded games for proof.)

[mastin2]

There is a limit to how patient I can be with the silliness surrounding this, "just one more day!" stuff.

Well it would have been one day if I had any idea night was even close!
Now it's just going to be two.

Btw, drop the "I was dayblocked D2" stuff; mod clarification told me I wasn't.

It's probably readily apparent that I (and a lot of others, it seems) are getting fed up with this secrecy.

And I have good reason for it.

I've softclaimed dozens of times.
ZX has softed it even further.
The less said before we've made our move, the better.

I kinda feel like hip-actioning with something, but that'd be highly reckless of me and I think waiting one day is safer and will produce better results than us going gun-ho.

Please stop hiding information because you think you know better than everyone else. You don't.

I really do, though.

No one in your neighborhood is a high priority target for the bad guys (and likely never will be).

All the better! I mean, it's certainly not intentional to not be a high-priority target. I DESPISE town PRs playing sub-optimally to dodge the nightkill. (It is also, incidentally, counterproductive given what I am somewhat-immune to; I'd WANT scum to target me.) But while I despise the strategy, and while them wasting actions on me would be good, them not placing me high on their priority list is even better, and I have absolutely no incentive to change that.

Your roles are probably of no more or less use than the rest of the roles in the game and you think way too highly of yourself if you think otherwise.

Actually, I am. But ONLY if I keep my mouth shut on the whole truth.

We're in a good position at the moment.

Precisely why there is NO harm in TRUSTING ME for ONE DAMN DAY further than originally planned.

There is virtually no harm in revealing the information you have if it allows people to get a better understanding of not only why your neighbors are town, but why your thought processes are coming from a town mindset.

Actually, there is. That being, that I DIDN'T USE MY ACTION LAST NIGHT, and using it will be even BETTER.
Patience, dammit. It's like people have forgotten that I'm MASTIN.

This is seriously not my modus operandi as scum, and if I'm not in my MO as scum, that means that I'm probably town, and if I'm town, then while I might not have a perfect understanding of things, while my reads aren't gonna be perfect, when I say scumhunting god = me, and my neighborhood is not to be touched, you can afford to fucking TRUST me for that much longer.

[mastin2]

Mastin posted, but no claim. Time to lynch her.

No support, no claim.

[mastin2]

I"m going to have a little faith in my other head and believe you that maybe this is not you as scum, but I absolutely do not believe in your masonry and think that with the shit that zzzzx has put into the thread he absolutely does not deserve to be given god town status.

He really does.
Ask Nacho what Xeno means.
It could mean many things.
But Nacho, and only Nacho, should be able to figure out what it ACTUALLY means.

[mastin2]

@mastim: We both know you don't have a MO as scum. You make plans and stick with them.

Yes, I always have a plan as scum but as part of them, I don't go waving IN THE THREAD, "HEY, GUYS, I HAVE A PLAN!"

[mastin2]

Also, the result means TSO could be scum. I'm not sure, though. Goes without saying.

[mastin2]

Because you could never make a plan that includes saying you have a plan in the thread.

Never? Nah.
Would ever?

Do you think I'm naive enough to honestly believe saying, "guys, guys, GUYS! I HAVE A PLAN!" will make people actually leave me alone as scum?
I know dang good and well the looks I get by saying that.

[mastin2]

However, telling us all we have to wait until D3 for her to prove she is town and now suddenly we are all going to have to wait again seems scummy to me.

I told you you would only have to wait until D3 under the assumption I was going to action N2.
A reasonable and fair assumption to make, no?
I had every reason to believe I would be around to submit my action.
That would have, therefore, allowed me to keep my promise.

I had no way of anticipating I would be gone four whole days, and during that time, the entirety of the night passed.
I did not know that deadline was near. Easily-established fact. (Fun fact, if I were scum, I'd have access to the scum PT. If I had access to the scum PT, I'd keep up-to-date on the messages there, since I always check the scum PT first, ESPECIALLY when the thread is much, much longer and I have a lot of catchup work to do. I would therefore know anything my scumbuddies informed me of. So the only way I can be scum, and not have known deadline was near, and not have known Cephrir was dead, was if none of my scumbuddies commented on any of these facts.)
I did not know I wasn't going to be around.
Thus, I did not submit an action, not even in advance, because I had no way of knowing that would be needed.

So come D3, and surprise surprise, I tell you I need one extra day to prove myself because I missed the deadline for my action.
It is 100% fact I was gone the entire time.
It is well-established that I don't keep track of deadlines. Ask any player of Organic Chemistry for just one example. (Antihero can vouch for that.) In fact, that game makes an excellent example. I used my normal linear catchup method. I had no clue the happenings of the game. I was catching up, entirely unaware that I was being lynched. And I continued posting, until Anti locked the thread.

Compare and contrast, NY 171, where I was scum being lynched. I was PERFECTLY aware I was being lynched there. I was well-aware of the happenings in the game. Same time constraints meant that I got lynched, but I was being lynched knowing I was being lynched.

I did not know we were near deadline on Friday.
I did not know the circumstances on that day.
I did not know I wouldn't be around to submit an action.
Thus the action didn't happen...and I need to wait an extra day to confirm it.

Simple.
As.
That.

[mastin2]

Your words D2 were literally "One damn day."

Contingent on me submitting the action that I needed over night two, thus the need for one day. Since that didn't happen, of course the one damn day didn't happen; my statement of needing one damn day still stands. I need one day to prove it. But I need to actually submit the night action for that to work. The only reason I didn't submit is because I didn't know we were near deadline, and I didn't know I wasn't going to be around. Even if you, for some ungodly reason, think I as scum would be willing to

fake siteflaking for four days

, I can't repeat that, and the 'excuse' doesn't work if I'm around ANYWHERE on site, meaning...yep. I can't "pull the same trick" twice. Meaning that tomorrow, 100%, I would have to answer for things.

I believe if you actually had a plan that would "work" N3 you would've presubmitted it.

If I actually knew I was going to be gone for four days, and actually knew deadline was near, sure.

Problem is, read my last post on D2.
READ IT.
Does that sound like someone who knows they won't be coming back?
I literally said "later tonight" if memory serves me.
I was intending fully to come back, FRIDAY NIGHT, to continue my catch-up.

That didn't happen because I was blindsided by the lifeguard training's intensity.

I do not believe mas-"AP WAS SO TOWN YOU GUIZ ARE IDIOTS"-tin would not turn on D3 and be all "lol SK is dead we're in a good position".

I already corrected that. When I said three scum dead, that was an error. I meant two, plus a player who in the opinion of SOME was anti-town also being dead, which isn't as good as 3 dead but is still decently good.

Thus, why there is absolutely no risk in, for one day, trusting me. Yesterday you trusted me because it was early, we were well off, and it had a set immediate expiration date; that hasn't changed today. It's still early. We're still well-off. It still has the same amount of a set expiration date. It's just, inconveniently, one phase later than expected thanks to real life and a failure to submit.

[mastin2]

Seems to me that you and mastin are both doing essentially the same thing, ie, nothing, while both stating that your role is a great reason, nay,

the best reason

, that you are not required to do anything.

Uh, I've been doing things?

Like scumhunting, giving reads, giving commentary, giving analysis, that sort of thing?

For instance, there's one read I have on my chest that I'm keeping secret; I'm townreading Zelink; TSO could be scum but shouldn't be lynched today; Ankamius is likely scum and the best lynch today; Skybird might be scum but it's too early to tell; vezok probably isn't scum; Imperium probably isn't scum; Andrius is scum just not scum we can touch; Espionage is near-certain town; list goes on and on. These are just chaotic random thoughts that popped up; if I organized them into a proper readslist, you'd have reads and reasons. I did that a while back, but I haven't made a formal one since the gladiate yesterday, because the gladiate focused scumhunting on primarily the lynch candidates.

I'm planning on doing all of that, but I need to get my stuff together. Like actually read the missing stuff, actually read the dead's PMs (which I haven't), and whatnot.

[mastin2]

I am pressuring both of you because you are BOTH doing the exact same goddamn thing, which is hiding behind a role that you won't claim.

And I'll claim it as soon as I can get my damn action through. Which would have been last night. If not for me NOT BEING AROUND. I said I was going to claim. I will. I have no intention of holding onto this. You have NO clue how much I WANT to claim.

I'm not exactly the most subtle person, after all.

But I DO need to actually WAIT until I've DONE my action. Which I haven't. Because I was gone.

mastin may be town who saw F16 faking a guilty on Ozgin and said, "Golly gee, I'll do that!"

I never fakeclaim.
EVER.

Not even as scum.

Well-established fact.

Truth is the best weapon, etc.

I got a result that basically said TSO targeted Sonic.
The mod then sent clarification and told me this was a mistake, and that I don't have any result saying TSO targeted Sonic.
Further mod clarification made this a bit clearer.

Town, scum, doesn't matter what my alignment is.
That's what happened; it's the truth.

[mastin2]

I don't like that Mastin didn't deliver the goods today as promised.

Because I wasn't around, anywhere on the site, for the entirety of the night, and me delivering the goods was dependent on me, y'know, SUBMITTING A NIGHT ACTION.

I could have delivered if I was around, but I wasn't. I can deliver if I am around, which I should be from hereon out.

[mastin2]

"Oh, TSO visited Sonic; wait, TSO did NOT visit Sonic, but I still think he did!!!"

I don't think you're this oblivious, I think you're pretending you don't understand what's going on here, but I'll spell it out, anyway...
mastin thinks that the mod error was caused because you

did

visit Snowflake-senpai, but that you were blocked (by pikari). So whatever the original result was that suggested you visited Snowflake-senpai was the error, the fact that this was retracted leads her to believe that she wasn't meant to know you visited Snowflake-senpai (because it was blocked).
There's no rock-solid evidence that this is what actually happened, but it's not exactly hard to understand what mastin is saying here.

More or less, yeah. I don't think it's good to tempt the wrath of the mod, though, and actually use this logic, though.

If TSO is to die, then via play would probably be a much better way to go about it.
...Which, admittedly, there's plenty of to suggest his death being good.

[mastin2]

Can always be a scum action instead of a town one, but meh

Which brings us back to the whole, "if I was scum, my scumbuddies would have submitted it FOR me" bit.

Really.

I can exaggerate the truth. I'm a fairly good BSer, at narrative writing.

I can't, however, set things up that are

contingent on real-life

, nor can I lie about those things and even if I could it violates the ethics of the game (thus my VERY STRONG code of honor).

Occam's razor.

Which is simpler?
I'm scum, who either knew about the events going on and is now creating some elaborate lie for some ungodly reason to cover things up for the sake of not claiming, or didn't know about the events going on in spite of how scumbuddies would be around to help and they would be around to use my action yet either didn't or I'm lying bringing us back to the part of lying for some ungodly reason to not claim for some hidden agenda...

...Or I'm town that missed my action?
No matter how you slice it. Fact remains that painting me as scum for this is contrived and convoluted.

If you think it's null, I'm willing to grant you that. That I could be scum legitimately unaware who legitimately didn't submit that was legitimately planning on claiming and thus that this whole thing is not a towntell. I'll give you that it's possible. (Though frankly, again, I fail to see any scenario where it's remotely

probable

.)

But scum?

FUCK no.

[mastin2]

(I also find it ironic that Magua accuses me of rolefishing when asking for details from ZX/me is doing exactly that, essentially.)

[mastin2]

If you have only one action you would've used by now.

That's...complicated to answer.

If you have more actions claim what td blocked night 1.

Nothing. I told you the joke was on him. Me not-actioning N1 was a GOOD thing because it was part of the plan. Me not-actioning N2 wasn't part of the plan, even though its result may be a happy accident anyway.

All the evidence points to you being scum.

To the contrary, all evidence has me as town.

Let me use occam's razor. Which is more probable, scum not submitting a kill or you being blocked, blocked the kill.

Or, y'know, dozens of other explanations for a failed scum kill. Your protection. Someone being kill-immune. Someone else having a blocking-type power. Someone else having a protection-type power. Scum having a power that benefits from not using the factional kill. (Poisoners for instance sometimes work this way.) Scum tried to kill someone who wasn't a valid target.

We have TD's claim, sure, but none of these scenarios are any less probable than the TDblock one would be in theory. (Okay, maybe the scum poisoner one.) To the contrary, given role madness? They are PROBABLE, not just possible. Now, I know for a fact TD's block was a joke of an action that did absolutely nothing, but even if I didn't.
Even if it were another player.
Let's say TD had blocked you N1 and there was no kill.

I wouldn't buy it as the cause.
It would enter into my considerations, sure. I'd keep an eye on it.
Never would I EVER rely on it, because it'd be 90% likely to be wrong.

I just so happen to know it's 100% wrong, and if I claimed, you would too.
TD's action had nothing to succeed on.

[mastin2]

My protect was on ceph. I highly doubt scum tried to kill themselves so that's out of the question.

Minor violation of occam's razor, but the possibility of you being redirected exists, no?

The simplest explanation is that you got blocked and that prevented the kill.

It is also, through multiple confirmable sources, entirely wrong.

When I say I can confirm ZX and Xombie.

I mean I can confirm both ZX AND Xombie.

We have time for more wagons if we don't fudge around voting random people.

Helpful hint:
Voting me is fudging around and voting a random person.
It will never go through.

TSO/Ankamius, on the other hand......

[mastin2]

@mastin:

Your argument is, essentially, "I'm not malevolent, I'm just incompetent!" I don't believe that. Further words are wasted. Display competence instead. For example, you've given no updated reads based on FourTrouble/Cephrir.

FT was always a conftown read. (Well, close-to anyway.) Nothing's changed there.
Reading Ceph's iso and looking for buddies is almost albeit not entirely worthless, and not nearly near the top of my priority list.

The last time you mention ZeL1nK prior to this was 6483 where he's the scummiest in his neighborhood.

Yes. "Scummiest in the neighborhood". A true statement.
Also a MASSIVE misrep, because I made it quite explicit I thought it was an all-town neighborhood. I quite literally said, "I think it's all-town, but IF there's scum in there, it'd be Zelink". The posts prior to that were me literally saying, "Nevermind, Zelink is town".

I

had

been scumreading Zelink earlier, but Zelink towned it up, particularly in the Ankamius exchange, and my read changed.
Zelink's crusade against TSO also looks incredibly town.

So FYPOV you have a report that says that TSO targeted Metal Sonic and then a clarification that he didn't which would seem to be related to vezok's role. TSO denies having an action at all, which seems a logical contradiction to your information and is now pushing for you to be lynched hard. So explain to me why he is not confirmed scum in your eyes.

Because he isn't confirmed scum from a moderator error. I think he's scum. I'm not 100% sure he is, though.

Were he to be scum, though, I'd want him vigged, not lynched. I have my reasons for that, too.

Because I'll tell you, from where I'm sitting, it really feels like you just made your "report" up and are now trying to backpedal away from it.

Hey, Magua.

Fun mastin history lesson for ya.

I have something like 170 or so games, between alts, hydras, and games I've played.
Outside newbies and obvious godfather/ninja/roleblocker white lies, know how many times I've lied about my role?
Grand total of TWICE.
Two times.
Out of, what? 50 or so scumgames?

One was Walking Dead, counterclaiming cop-with-a-guilty-on-me. (Who, ironically, was not a cop with a guilty on me...being a traitor-scumbuddy. )
The other was that one mini game, modded by Oversoul I believe, where I believe I claimed JOAT.
Both of these games are at least two years old by now.
The latter game was, what, 2011? 2012? Somewhere 'round there.
The former game was done in obvious desperation and necessity to try and stave off the lynch.

This is not a trust tell.
But I

never

lie.

Because there is absolutely no gain to be had from it.

I consider lying as scum to be borderline playing against your wincon, outside of extreme circumstances.
Easily-verifiable fact.

Could I theoretically make a STUPID move...with absolutely NO obvious gain, aside from, what, maybe wifom?
I could. In theory. Thus why it's not a trust tell.
Would I EVER do so?

No.

I do not lie.
I do not backpedal.
I consider those moves, outside very specific circumstances, to be just as much playing against your wincon as lying when town.
You just don't. do. it.

Truth is the best weapon.
These stances of mine you can find in any game, because this has been my code of conduct ever since I swore to stop being a VI. (So, from 2012 onwards consistently, with some bits in 2011 supporting it and some in there not-so-much.)
So you can't claim I'm making shit up about my ethics.

So helpful hint, better approach for you instead of saying that I'm making everything up is to say that I'm breaking my established meta for some mysterious edge it will somehow grant me while having some sort of justification as for it to not violate my ethics.

...But even then, good luck with that.
You're fighting a losing battle, particularly in a game filled to the brim with people who know me and can verify everything I'm saying.

Could I be scum who had this action?
Yes I could be.
Could I be scum who decided to break my meta and lie?
Oh I guess I could be in theory if I saw some advantage in it, whatever the heck that'd be. (No, you have not shown it.)

But is your push in any way backed by reality?
Nope!

[mastin2]

Everything that's been said so far would indicate that TSO's action should read as scum to mastin, so what I'm *really* curious about is why mastin has backed off and has TSO as a kinda-maybe-possibly scumread.

Because the mod told me it was an error.

Besides.
You don't know

how

I got the info.
I do.
There's a reason I said 95% and not 100%. There was a margin of error off of my info's nature. That margin of error continues to exist, only DOUBLY so, with the result being a mod error. I still sort-of think TSO is scum, because that is the explanation that seems to make the most sense. I am not sure he is, because there's the potential for error in this.

(The further follow up is why mastin, given TSO-visits-Metal information, choose to out it like that, given that since Metal didn't die anyone visiting Metal is more likely a protective role than anything else.)

I DID THIS BECAUSE YOU. KEPT. ASKING. ME. TO. CLAIM! And I decided to throw. you. a. damn. bone. by outing some info I had. (Well,

thought

I had.) I said not to shoot TSO. People pestered me as to why. I told them. And, yes, I DID say that TSO visiting Metal made TSO more likely town, WELL before I outted the why, but then vezok claimed the protect on Metal, the mod error happened, and whatnot.

I kept on telling you. AS I KEEP ON TELLING YOU. That claiming right now would be sub-optimal. And me outting that info was meant as a sample as to WHY I am being so SECRETIVE; it's because

I actually

do

know stuff

!

I'm the one who holds the cards here, so when I say that this all makes sense...you can bet yer ass it makes sense if I were to say it, but SAYING IT CONTINUES TO BE A BAD IDEA TODAY. Tomorrow, I will out it. Tomorrow, I will make the reveal. But. not. today.

[mastin2]

The only TSO-mastin interactions I recall are TSO prodding mastin over mastin's "AP was town" posts, and TSO saying "We shouldn't be clearing anyone based on mastin".

Uh, I've been calling TSO scum for the majority of the game? Iso me. Control-F TSO. It's three letters that are quite unique. Can't be that hard to get the hits.

- "95% accuracy": Leaving room to weasel out

95% accuracy because of the nature of the info.

- "possibility of being redirected": Leaving room to weasel out

I knew (well, thought I did) who TSO targeted. I didn't know for a fact that TSO targeted Sonic from the get-go, thus, redirected, and again at the time I emphasized how I THOUGHT this would make TSO be town.

- "speculating about mod errors is bad": Followed by speculation about mod error

Speculating about mod error = dangerous and territory that I would prefer not to tempt, but which I am doing anyway because of bullshit like this.

[mastin2]

I feel that a town-thought-process would not have outted the info, or would've only outted it to her "masonry."

I did!
I posted the result in the masonry first.
Well before in-thread.
I made several vague posts in-thread before I even said TSO was probably town if memory serves me.
But the first thing I did. Before even checking the thread. Was to post my result in the masonry.

It was only AFTER people kept PUSHING ME that I decided that, "Okay,

fine

, you want this info, you can

have

it. It's not too terribly disastrous to share."

[mastin2]

Ankamius is scum diverting from mastin.

Yes he is!

Let's lynch him first!

@Drixx:

Skip this game thread. Read your neighborhood QT. Tell me what you think of mastin2 and ZZZX.

Drixx is currently waiting for moderator clarification on a few things, but I can already tell you the answer will be that the slot's changed, but the absolute trust has not.

[mastin2]

FourTrouble shoot

TSO, Ooba, or Skybird

after 5952 and 5956 it should be Skybird. Skybird doesn't care about who gets shot, as long as it's not her.

By the way, going back to here.

Worth mentioning, Skybird might actually be town.
Ooba is more town than not, too.

Sonic's town, ace is meh, TWIE is mehtown, Zelink is town, farside is minor town, Imperium is town, Andy is scum, Ank is probscum, TSO is too, vezok probtown, Esp virtually conftown, Heartless still positive side of null.

Yes, I'm voting a townread. dealwithit.jpg. For emphasis since I'm aware I'm already voting him: VOTE: FourTrouble
Shoot Skybird.

Would like to reemphasize why I quoted this. FourTrouble IS the vig, and yet Magua is voting him. If FT were lynched, then there wouldn't BE anyone to shoot Skybird. Thus, mutually exclusive comment earlier.

[mastin2]

But FT says he really wants to hit scum, so id recommend he shoot andy or farside over clearing up the mason thing.

Actually, I quite like this.
Not mehtown, weaktown pending further commentary.

[mastin2]

If you think TiphaineDeath/ZeL1nK are scum, why are you voting FourTrouble at this point?

(Especially given the scumread he allegedly had on TD.)

[mastin2]

Well, I'm sorry if you're town man.

No you're not. You're scum.
I literally cannot believe anybody who read N's game can come to the conclusion I'm scum this game
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=31182
You had two of my scum buddies from that game (Nacho\Andy) vouching for my town status. They're also two players who can read me really well. Aren't you the one who mentioned Solar Wind's reads? Look at his paragraph on me in his read list.
Did you take a look at how I interacted with wagons? My Pere suspicion looked like a bus? If you've really analysed this, who are my ~3 partners in this game?

I'm updating my ooba read to fulltown for his posting here.

COULD that be scum, sure.
Does it look like scum?
Heck no.

[mastin2]

My scumreading theace is largely POE as well.
I'd shoot Skybird first if that were possible but apparently it isn't.

This isn't, specifically, anything, but ace is more mehtown to me on general gut vibes in this area.

[mastin2]

ZeL1nK, Imperium, Espeonage

,

F-16

<---this hood thinks it's all town, but is probably right imo
TSO,

Ozgin

, Vezok, Magua <---this hood thought it was all town earlier and is almost certainly wrong

Ooba

,

Cephrir

, Heartless,

Andrius

<---this hood mostly thinks it's all town but we maintain a healthy dose of paranoia

Metal Sonic-senpai

,

Skybird

, TWIE <---this hood thought it was all town; it is almost certainly wrong
Farside,

FourTrouble

,

Ankamius

,

PV

<---probably scum here too
Theaceofspades, Mask,

AP

<---this hood has never claimed to think it was all town

The only one I disagree on is your 'hood. I think your 'hood has one scum. I think that Ank is by far the most likely scum in that hood. Other than that, not much to say.

This is an updated take on things, standard mastin meanings. Those without a mark are not strongly enough town or scum to have it, or are not marked for ~reasons~.

[mastin2]

Mastin claiming that zzx and xombie is 100% town does not make mastin town, even if the latter two are truly town
Just saying

Actually, it does, but, yaknow, ~reasons~ are for tomorrow.

[mastin2]

Poor Mask
Even in death, you're not a strong town read of mastin's

Oops.

Also forgot to remove the "this hood thought it was all town; it is almost certainly wrong" for Sonic's neighborhood, as the underline for Skybird and weak townread on TWIE show.

[mastin2]

The interaction between TSO and Mastin didn't make sense to me if it was scum-scum. It made more sense if it was scum-town.

Yep!
In that order, too!

[mastin2]

Can someone give me advice on how far into the thread I should start to do real reads on the living?

From D3 might be a good place to start. When was that, 254? Somewhere 'round there.

[mastin2]

Rephrase: I am assuming mastin has fullclaimed to you and you know exactly how her role works. y/n?

Yes, though maybe not clearly. I don't remember how well I laid it out; I claimed multiple times and multiple different aspects for a variety of reasons. Thinking my role was more powerful than it was, waiting until the conclusion of N1, and such. But after the beginning of D2, I did in fact fullclaim. I'll need to check how thoroughly it was done.

[mastin2]

Votecount 51: Basically 1 day til deadline.

Zel1nk (6.5): Mastin2, theaceofspades, farside22, Ooba, The Mask, Ozgin, TSO
FourTrouble (6): Metal Sonic, Magua, Heartless, Vezokpiraka, Espeonage, ZZZX
Ozgin (3): Andrius, Ankamius

No Lynch (6): Skybird, Cephrir, Zel1nk, FourTrouble, Imperium

Not Voting: Xombie, TheWayitEnds

22 alive means 11.5 to lynch.

Deadline is (expired on 2015-03-07 00:00:00)

That's not a very long time boys and girls!

Rough guestimate, but try from here. Should be around the time where you can get the context behind ooba, FT, Zelink, Ceph, and whatnot.

[mastin2]

I get where she's coming from, vezok.

Now I happen to not

agree

, outside lolparanoia, but I at least get where it comes from.

[mastin2]

(Link for the curious.)

[mastin2]

Uhh...whoops.
Wrong game.

[mastin2]

Uhh...whoops.
Wrong game.

^

[mastin2]

I don't understand -- where the fuck is mastin's confirmation?

she "forgot" to send in her night action to confirm.
a bunch of excuses on how she doesnt keep track of deadlines

I. FLAT-OUT.
WAS NOT ON THRE FUCKING SITE FOR FOUR FUCKING DAYS.
THE ENTIRETY OF THE NIGHT BEING IN THAT FUCKING TIMEFRAME.
ENTIRETY. OF. THE. NIGHT.
DURING THE TIME I WAS NOT FUVKING AFROUND.

You have any idea what that cost me?
I ACTUALLY GOT REPLACED IN A GAME. (As an alt, admittedly, butstill.)
YOU.
FUCKING.
THINK.
I WOULD LET MYSELF.
GET.
REPLAVED.
FOR THE SAKE OF "faking" NOT BEING AROUND?

I. wasn't. aroiund.
And you can't fucking submit an action.
If you're not around to submit the damn fucking action!

[mastin2]

FT, who are you going to pick after Ank is lynched?

I'm thinking mastin.

Your shot would not kill me for ~reasons~, but would be a Very Bad Idea. (TM.)

Mainly, let me make this clear to you.
I have an action that scum can't fuck with.
They literally cannot interfere with it.
But if you shoot me, then that goes away.

[mastin2]

FT, who are you going to pick after Ank is lynched?

I'm thinking mastin.

Your shot would not kill me for ~reasons~, but would be a Very Bad Idea. (TM.)

Mainly, let me make this clear to you.
I have an action that scum can't fuck with.
They literally cannot interfere with it.
But if you shoot me, then that goes away.

(Helpful hint, when I said I was a scumhunting god with an absolutely gamebreakingly powerful role, I meant it. By not actioning N1 and N2, my role became significantly stronger, albeit accidentally for N2. By actioning, I have this action scum can't fuck with.

SO DAMN FUCKING STRAIGHT.
I AM PLAYING MY CARDS CLOSE TO MY CHEST ON WHAT IT IS.)

[mastin2]

(But, yes, I AM going to claim it tomorrow, everything WILL make sense, and you WILL all see exactly why I've been playing the way I have and saying what I've said, and why we hold so much trust in each other.)

[mastin2]

(In fact, I'm asking the mod now if he accepts night actions in advance, and if so, if he'll take mine, JUST to make sure that he gets it.)

[mastin2]

Hey, so I'm quite V/LA right now, but I'll do what I can.

The game is quite clearly over - everyone believes it's Ankamius and TSO, therefore it's definitely Ankamius and TSO.

Actually, I think Andrius is scum, but, well, y'know.

I also have a ~super sekrit~ suspicion which is super-sekrit.

At least one of the two could be town given that much.

[mastin2]

(That doesn't change the fact that they're the best lynch/vig options in my opinion right now.)

[mastin2]

(I'll try to get a readslist up to my partners, including my secret suspicion. I'm not sure if I can make one in here without revealing said suspicion, though. My buddies already should know who the suspicion is, if memory serves me.)

[mastin2]

I can choose someone each day and every single action targeting me will instead target that player. The day phase after, I will target myself with that action.

I need to think about this for a bit.

Unvote

.

'Cause that claim looks hella town to me for ~reasons~.

[mastin2]

Cephrir Bullshit Removal CONCLUSION
farside can be town.
TWIE is town (reluctantly)
Magua is town
ZZZX is town
Mask is town
imperium is town
mastin is town
beast is town (confirmed)
skybird is town I am confirming this
solar wind is town (confirmed)
angry pidgeon is town not on his team confirmed
Heartless might be scum
Rach/Andrius is to be looked at.
Cephrir is telling us that Ankamius or TSO CANNOT be scum together. Thats the new insight. one is lynchbait, and one is scum. or both are lynchbait. and we are to choose.
WHO DID CEPH NOT MENTION BUT SHOULD HAVE?
1. OOBA
2. VEZOKPIRAKA
3. XOMBIE
^^^^^ food for thought
Now. 2 scum have flipped. There are 5 scum, maximum 6.
it COULD be convenient that ceph just spelled us the last 3 scum as Heartless : Rach : TSO/Ank

I want to comment on this so badly right now, but V/LA (it's past 3, I should be doing homework, I have work tomorrow which requires alertness, I wake up at 8, and the work's not done, yet here I am), combined with the fact that I want to play my cards close to my chest.

But, uh...I actually think I have the game solved. Thing is, I won't be able to prove it until tomorrow at the earliest.
Like...there's groundbreaking thoughts I have on players alignments. That I'm currently keeping to myself.

[mastin2]

i'm back to thinking farside is scum

If my theory is right?

No.

She's town.
Far,

far

more than you could possibly fathom right now.

I promise that tomorrow, I will explain right (in which case, we basically win) or wrong (in which case, I look like an idiot, but oh well).

[mastin2]

I'll make sure to tell my partners tonight in detail, as soon as I get the time. (I'll also double-check the mod's got my night action. I think he accepted my action-in-advance, but, yaknow. Double-triple-checking > assuming.)

[mastin2]

I'd love to know why mastin has "groundbreaking thoughts" on people's alignments, is saying me and Ank could be town, but we're great vig targets... as opposed to, y'know, her scumreads. Crazy thought, I know.

Well, Ank I'm pretty sure is town. It's you that's in question. You could be town, you could be scum. If my theory is right, town's slightly more likely. If my theory is wrong, scum's more likely.

I also don't understand why these thoughts have to be shared in the neighbourhood and not here.

For the same reason that I want to wait until tomorrow to share. I do plan on sharing. I just think that sharing after a delay is best. It's the safer option.

[mastin2]

Well, damn. So much for my theory. (Outside godfather in which case Magua would be the luckiest son of a bitch ever.)
If I had gotten the result I was

hoping

for, we'd have dead scum in an instant, but alas, Magua is town.

*cough*

Now, then. I did promise I'd claim and explain everything. So to keep a long story short:

Claim: god of bees

.
There are multiple aspects of my role.

Fundamentally, I have a day action, "Bees"--when I target a player, they get a swarm of bees on them.
During the night, the bees will spread to any person the player with bees on them targets. Sound familiar? It should. It's a red/blue/green/yellow/whatevercolor-goo type ability.
I targeted ZX, my partner, with it D1, and TSO D2. (Magua was D3.)
What makes this ability stronger, however, is that at the beginning of each day, I receive a list of players who have bees on them.

This is what makes me like a tracker

. A player with bees on them will spread the swarm to whoever they target, and I'll see the new person in my list during the day that wasn't there before.

My night action, "stinger", is an extension: I can target any player with bees on them, and cop them. There's a drawback: the bees don't spread, so I don't get the tracker-like results for that night, and the bees are removed (at least in theory--gotta clarify something with the mod).
However, on the plus side: Right now, I am kill-immune, and both roleblock and redirect-immune. Meaning that once I have a target, I can cop them and the results will go through, 100%.

Now, what have my results been?
On D2, I was informed ZX and I had bees--this is because ZX, my partner, targeted me with ZX's ability, which ZX claimed in the neighborhood and has been confirmed.
On D3's beginning, I was informed (via moderator error) that ZX, myself, and Sonic had bees on them, which the mod corrected to being ZX and myself, and then re-corrected to be ZX, myself, and TSO.
And today, I was told there were bees on ZX, myself, TSO, and Magua.

I copped Magua last night and he is Order-aligned, thus, conftown. He was the read I was keeping close to my chest as a scumread, but that was clearly wrong.
I just asked the mod about whether me having bees is why Magua still has bees. If the mod tells me that I'm NOT the reason Magua still has bees on him, though, then that means TSO is a liar and has a night action that targeted Magua, since again, ZX is confirmed town to me.

Drixx is separate in the equation, but still part of it. I could out why I have been defending Xombie/him if you'd like, but doing so would be anti-town. I can tell you that by tomorrow, you won't need me vouching for him, but that's another "wait one more day" type thing, meaning I *am* willing to reveal if ABSOLUTELY necessary.

tl;dr:

I am a passive tracker/active cop, with immunity to scum. ZX is confirmed. I confirmed Magua as order-aligned last night.

And THAT, my friends, is why I've been playing my cards close to my chest.

But you can read literally any spot in my iso and find 'crumbs LITTERED throughout. "Bee" where there's supposed to be "be", my whole "scumhunting god" thing including a tracker and cop (and watcher, because I originally mistakenly believed anyone visiting my target would ALSO get bees until I reread my role PM), commuter about being immune to actions, you get the idea. It'd take me a couple of hours to track them ALL down.

[mastin2]

(Yes, my plan was to cop TSO N2, and put into motion "plan-get-scum-dead-and-us-conftown" then, but, well, yaknow. No action. But the result was having TSO permanently be a track target, so oh well, happy accident.)

[mastin2]

Oh. And my readslist last night was:
Drixx
ZX
Sonic
FT

farside
Espeonage
Zelink
ooba

Skybird

vezok
Imperium

TWIE
Heartless
TAOS

TSO
Andrius
Magua

For varying reasons. (I can post them in a bit later, paraphrased.)

Obviously need a rethink after tonight's results, so I'll give an update after I read.

[mastin2]

why didn't you fucking confirm me

Because of the happy accident. With you having

not

been investigated N2 as I had intended, I went on to investigate Magua, knowing if you visited anyone, I'd see it. It'd also confirm Magua one way or the other, when Magua was a major figure of interest to me. I did not buy him being town like others were. Incidentally, I wanted to investigate Magua D2 and even tried changing my bees target to him, but dram said that day actions, unlike night actions, are locked in and can't be changed so I was stuck with you N2. (Or would've been.)

Basically, I submitted your name D2, thinking it'd be a good choice.
I grew suspicious of Magua, and wanted it there instead; the mod wouldn't allow the change.
I decided, "Oh, well, still a good investigate", and was resolved to make it N2.
I wasn't around N2.
D3, I submitted Magua, who I wanted to investigate.
With you tagged already, and already wanting to investigate Magua, I investigated Magua.]

Made sense to me.

[mastin2]

We waited so freaking much for mastin to come in and claim a cop. A COP. Really. Ah. Let's get to finding scum.

No, a passive tracker, and super-cop.
I cannot be killed.
I cannot be roleblocked.
I cannot be redirected.

I get the tracker results automatically.
And the cop is a strong ability given the above.

It's a ridiculously broken role when used right.
The only thing that'd make it more broken would to actually have a guilty result today.

[mastin2]

Also, Hi, Magua.
/hoping this game doesn't give

deja vu to

last

Magua encounter

. (*grumble, grumble, lynch the cop's guilty BEFORE the cop please, gripe, gripe*)

(BTW, while I have a myriad of 'crumbs, this is by far my favorite. For those not in the know, start reading from here.)

[mastin2]

I think Mastin is overselling how OP the role is a bit. It requires some very smart play and a little luck to be super strong.

Which I explained in the topic. I explicitly said (you can confirm, given you're in there) that in the hands of some random scummer, it'd be a fairly weak role, but in MY hands, it's a gamebreakingly powerful one.

[mastin2]

I'm still waiting for the part where this makes you super town.

To be honest, I was kinda hoping to have a guilty, here. There's a reason I went for MAGUA, after all.
Woulda made my plan be much better. Imagine this.

Magua, a player who is widely townread save for one player, is suddenly called scum via cop guilty by me...and then gets dayvigged.
Given scum's position, would that be anywhere even remotely smart play from scum? No, it'd be suicidal play. (Another reason I targeted Magua over TSO. Everyone thinks TSO is scum. What do you need a cop result for?)

Admit it, you'd conftown me for that act. I wouldn't even need to claim the entirety of my role, even though I probably would anyway.

The plan didn't account for me getting an innocent result.

It's less-than-ideal, but it still works.
Speaking of which, while I planned for today (albeit not for today's result), I didn't take the time to plan for after that, so I need to think of a new bees target, especially if TSO dies be it via lynch or dayvig.

[mastin2]

Right. So the mod answered my question. I will, in fact, leave bees on someone I target with my cop, in spite of my cop removing the bees on them. (The cop is my ultimate.) However, the bees will not spread to the target (if any) of my target. In other words, my target won't get the passive track for that night, but will continue to have it even after being copped, for future nights.

If you would've copped TSO it would've made me feel better. TSO is most probably town, but there is still the little paranoia that thinks he might be scum.

Well, if he's not lynched today, then that'd be a viable option, especially since I don't really have many ideas.

I mean, one of my ideas was Anti, but he's apparently a psychic and told me

not

to, soyeah.

Why did you play your cards close to your chest if you are unkillable?

Multiple reasons. As a start, I told FT yesterday, while I cannot be killed, if I am "killed", then I lose the roleblocking and redirection immunity. Then there's the fact that while my night action cannot be blocked, my day action (the bees themselves) in theory could be. Furthermore, while the scum can't interfere with ME, that doesn't mean it's impossible for them to have a tailor/framer on their team and my ability once outted is much easier to counter. And on that note, I wasn't happy about the prospect of claiming in the first place--I agreed to claim because I thought it necessary to protect my buddies and due to the above there wouldn't be much of a risk in doing so, but all the same, it's a fact that the longer I kept my mouth shut, the more likely it would be that we'd achieve our ideal result.

Regrettably, we have not. Which brings me to the final reason, that being, ~reasons~ relating to why a scum result would've been awesome.
Like I said, I've revealed most of the cards, but I'm still holding onto a couple, because if I can get a guilty, then I will impress everyone. My group would become conftown of conftown, instead of just conftown-by-trusting-me. Revealing those cards robs that.

But let me put it to you this way.
You ignore what I say, and then after the truth is revealed, you WILL facepalm and go, "why the heck did I do that?", understand EXACTLY why I've done as I have, and wonder why you were so idiotic in trying to force my hand against my wishes. (Especially when I have an established track record of when not wanting to reveal, not wanting to reveal for

damn good reasons

.)

[mastin2]

I don't understand why ZZZX is 100% confirmed to you, mastin: all I got was that he targeted you with an ability that was confirmed (what ability?) and that he hasn't used a night action since D1.

An ability that was confirmed.

Plus, other things that have happened in there make ZX town too.
At this point, I'd basically say that I'd let myself be lynched before ZX or Drixx, conditional on my flip confirming them as town. (I

could

out the info, as an alternative, but honestly, I think it's knowledge better taken to the grave than outted, because they are not scum and thus the only people gaining from it would be scum.)
...Obviously not exactly my plan A at this point, mind you. My plan is to get a guilty so that I can deliver swift and decisive death upon the scum, conftowning them in the process.

[mastin2]

CHINESE : Metal, Skybird, TWIE
NORSE:

The Mask

, Ace,

AP

MAYAN: Xombie, ZZZX, Mastin
ROMAN: Imperium,

Solar

, Bitmap, TD
HINDU:

Pere

, Farside, FT,

Anamikus

GREEK:

Magua

, Vezo,

Beast

, TSO
EGYPTIAN: ooba,

ceph

, heartless,

andy

^List including Andy's townflip and my order result on Magua.

Honestly, I'm a bit directionless.
I don't think ooba is scum, because his reaction to getting dayvigged before TD changed the target was insanely town; I simply can't see scum faking that. If there's a second scum in there, it'd be Heartless, who is a big giant ? to me and is saying they're off-limits.
I don't particularly think Vezok is scum, because I don't exactly have an explanation for the failed nightkills aside from his protect. That said, I don't particularly think he's town, either, butstill. And there's TSO where there's nothing town and Zelink brings up a lot of good points for why he'd be scum, but I dunno there, either. I just...don't feel like lynching him. I don't know why.
FourTrouble is without a doubt town, thanks to the immensely pro-town dayvig along with solid play and also a decent (albeit wrong) vig shot. Farside, on the other hand, is right now a giant question mark, because I don't know.
I think there should be scum in Roman simply by POE, but heck if I'd know who. I could see it as any of Imperium/Esp/Zelink in theory, even though I lean against Zelink and have held an Esp townread. It could even be two scum, for all I know. But I haven't the slightest idea.
Ace is a fairly meh-read. If I had to assign an alignment, it'd be town, but I don't really have any backing for that.
Metal is town the same way FT is, but I could see either Skybird or TWIE as scum. Something I saw (but for the life of me, can't remember) made me doubt Skybird was scum, and something made me keep TWIE out of the scum pile, yet I don't remember and certainly don't put much stock in it.

So Heartless, {vezok/

TSO

}, farside, {Imperium/Espeonage/Zelink},

theaceofspades

, and {Skybird/

TWIE

}. Neighborhoods-wise, there's where my focus is. But that's basically worthless. :/

[mastin2]

Radical idea I had.

Would people be receptive to a massclaim at this point?

...I know that we'd lose a lot of our edge role-wise. Nobody knows this better than ME, who is holding a couple of cards back. But my logic is basically that, with a couple of exceptions here and there, it seems like everyone in their neighborhood knows the claims of their neighbors

anyway

.

And of course, we'd need to do so strategically. Have people who haven't claimed in their neighborhoods near or at the front, but otherwise proceeding as normal, with people generally considered scummy being earlier than those not scummy. (Yes. I am fully aware this'd put me near the front. But I'm kinda desperate, because short of no-lynching and hoping for a guilty, I'm not getting anywhere right now reads-wise.) No more secrets, no more lies (except from the scum of course), a FULLY open playing field where all our cards are on the table and we can best figure out this mess. We see inside the heads of the neighbors who have claimed their abilities, to know

why

they have been seen as so town, can analyze it, and make our own judgements.

This process would also, by extent, require divulgence of the happenings inside the neighborhoods, as accurately paraphrased as possible.

This is an all-or-nothing idea, though. If we start down this path, we have to lynch/dayvig those who refuse to comply. It'd definitely have a lot of disadvantages, for the price of clarity and potential synchronization as advantages.

Thoughts?

[mastin2]

mastin's grand reveal was not so grand after all.
i am going "meh" rather "wow"
meh

Like I said, if I had gotten a guilty, you would be in awe. :/

[mastin2]

It would have been staggeringly impressive if she hadn't had the night 2 snafu and we had been able to do what we wanted to a guilty result. It would have conftowned our entire neighborhood since the plan called for all three of us to do our part. I don't really want to say any more because it's still possible to make it work and ensure a town win.

^What Drixx said. Not revealing all our cards can still allow for some awesome work to be done. I'd reveal if I thought that it was worth it to do so (a massclaim along with a paraphrase of the neighborhood being one such example, and obviously a guilty being another), but otherwise, the less said the better.

[mastin2]

You get "order aligned" or "not order aligned"?

It doesn't say what form the results will be in my PM. It just says I'll receive their alignment. Given that I received Order on Magua, this'd mean I'd presumably receive "self-aligned" for third parties, and presumably "Chaos-aligned" for scum.

[mastin2]

@Mastin

: Your Magua read\cop. Was it discussed in your neighbourhood about who you're going to target? Did either of the us two suggest\inception the idea?

It was all me. I've been the one basically spearheading the efforts in the neighborhood. Xombie did a little bit of work, and Drixx basically picked up where Xombie left off, but my Magua read was all-me. Drixx can confirm that I had the desire to cop him since D2, given my rant about changing my action, and that I gave my reasons why in there multiple times (albeit never once in great detail).

Magua was, frankly, playing like scum-trying-to-look-town to me. His stances seemed like they were entirely beneficial for a scum wincon, so damn right I wanted to cop him. I knew from personal experience exactly how good Magua is at looking town when scum, plus I knew that in the off chance that I was wrong about him (welp), having a conftown Magua would be an extreme asset.

[mastin2]

If TSO flips scum, we should just have a proper mass claim tomorrow where all the information is on the table. I think it will help with co-ordinating actions more effectively and clear up some things.

How the bloody hell did you manage to post this immediately before I thought up my idea?

I swear I didn't see your post.

Butyeah, I think my stance on this is fairly clear: though it'd have a few downsides, I

am

willing, provided that EVERYONE claims and that we get neighborhood paraphrases to accompany it.

[mastin2]

The one thing irking me is where the kill went last night. Mastin, maybe? If there's two at any point take FT as your god and saviour.

If so, then I was protected.

Part of my kill immunity and my block/redirect immunity is that if scum successfully got a kill attempt through on me, well, the kill itself would fail but not only would I lose the block/redirect immunity, but I'd be made aware OF this fact.

[mastin2]

@mastin:

Confirm for me please: Player A has bees. Anyone Player A targets (with either a day or night action) will get bees. Correct?

Night action definite yes.
I've been

assuming

no for day actions, but on my partners' request, I checked my role PM and it's ambiguous. I'll tell you as soon as I have an answer. (I haven't submitted a target, yet, but if bees spread with day actions, then there's been some seriously missed opportunity that I need to start remedying today.)

What about people who target Player A. Will they get bees?

I

originally

thought so, making it both a watcher-tracker, but no, it's only a tracker. Bees do not spread to a player targeting someone with bees, sadly.

Do you receive the list of dead people with bees as well? Ie, if Player A has bees, and then nk's Player B, would you know that Player B has bees even though they're dead?

This was a question I had meant to ask the mod ever since D1, but never got around to until just now. He'll presumably give me an answer at the same time as the above.

Finally: Explain your thought process for TSO visiting metal sonic claim D2 because I do not see how you got that from the information provided.

Metal Sonic 'got' bees on him.
I didn't give him bees.
ZX didn't give him bees.
Only three people had bees, and the third was TSO.
So, my thought was TSO gave Sonic bees.
Thus, why I believed TSO visited Sonic.

[mastin2]

... No, not really. Like, all of...

absolutely no one

thought pikari protecting Pumbaa was the reason for the lack of kill.

Uhh...*raises hand*
...I did!
At least I think. I remember it being a reason I said to leave Ceph alone at the very least.

[mastin2]

This game feels weird for some reason. If I had to guess, it's probably because of scum hardcore lurking and town fighting amongst each other.
- TheWayItEnds ( 5 days 22 hours )
- Espeonage ( 2 days 11 hours )
- theaceofspades ( 8 days 0 hours )

Esp we owe the courtesy of not instakilling.
The other two, not so much.

[mastin2]

Has mastin done anything?

Plenty. Claimed a super-role which is best NOT removed from the game by your ability, along with why removing my masonry would be bad too, among other things.

[mastin2]

Remember when mastin read AP based on wagon dynamics and it turned out to be wrong? I remember that.

Which game? Certainly not this one! Because I was right; he wasn't scum!

[mastin2]

I will vote for him if the people I view as most probably town believe that's the right play today.

Honestly, I haven't the slightest clue who I want to lynch today...or even if I want to lynch today at all.

[mastin2]

@zlink how about you wait until i discuss stuff with my neighborhood?

Yes please.

I mean, even IF TSO is the lynch today (big if), I haven't even gotten an answer from the mod, yet. So wait a while until we have some answers at the very least.

[mastin2]

Oh mastin - can you clarify how zzzx is confirmed town to you?

Can? Yes. Will? No, not today. Not outside a full massclaim, anyway. I'd rather let myself be lynched than out that info without good incentive. If you doubt ZX is town, then you're doubting me town so you come after me first.

Why didn't you investigate tso night two after giving him bees?

BECAUSE. I. WASN'T. AROUND. NIGHT. FUCKING. TWO.
Four damn days.
I was gone four.
damn.
days.
Friday, during the day, was my last post on site.
Then I went to lifeguard training.
Which brutally lasted until Sunday.
And left me too wiped out to play until Monday night.
By which time, night had come and fucking passed.

Believe

me, I would have if I could have.

[mastin2]

@mastin / mastin's PT:

Why were you all "don't target me N1, it'll be super bad"?

This is tied to why I am kill, block, and redirect immune right now, and is something best left not disclosed. If I thought there was even the tiniest morsel of a reason this would be good info to reveal, I'd do so, but I don't. (Seriously, if YOU were a kill, block, and redirect-immune cop, would you divulge the details?) It is, incidentally, just as true now as then: I don't see any role targeting me as being a good thing, and for that matter, most roles I can think of aren't such a good idea on my partners, either. (There are one or two that'd be okay, but otherwise, either a waste or detrimental.)

[mastin2]

Subject: You could be anyone II - Game Over

I am going to call AJ nearly confirmed town. Just from that one post. Deal with it.

Oh god. All the others reads were spot on. This is just bad.

Hey, in your defense, it WAS multiball, and scum tend to look town in multiball because they're legitimately scumhunting.

Why is it a "big if"?

Because let's be honest, if a TSO lynch goes through it will be purely because of town apathy and nothing more. Should I stop being apathetic, I'd probably actually fight his lynch, and yet also dismantle the vezok lynch.

Because, well. Let me put it this way.
The TSO wagon just doesn't feel right. Objectively it should. There's basically nothing town there and no reason for me to defend him. There's nothing aside from there being nothing that should cause me to fight in his name.
Subjectively, it just doesn't feel like it's gonna hit scum, but because of the objective thing and me not being sure and me not really caring I'm not pushing this stronger.

The only thing is, I think vezok's a worse lynch and vezok's the TSO counterwagon, so between the two I'd pick TSO over vezok but I'm not sure I want TSO dead.

[mastin2]

Have you considered the possibility your reads are awful and TSO is scum?

My reads are awful.
Know why?
Because I have none.

I mean, you

could

argue that by having no reads you by definition cannot have awful reads, but in my book, if you have no reads you by definition have awful reads.
I've got no townread on TSO.
I've got no scumread on TSO.
It's badly nothingread on TSO.

Because you were all for Anamikus being scum yesterday and that worked out well.

Uh, no I wasn't? I unvoted him for good reason. One of the main reasons for that lynch was for the vig, and because I thought it possible he could be scum. When it became clear I was wrong, I tried unvoting but it was too late.

But when actual scum is being run up, you and Heartless are all "it doesn't feel right!" or "the wagon dynamics!"

No offense meant to Anti, but don't associate me with Heartless. I'm bad, I'll admit that, but at least I'm not pushing for a vezok lynch and would lynch TSO to stop such a thing.

[mastin2]

There are players that I am reading less as town than TSO frankly at this point.

[mastin2]

Hey, TSO.
Not quite true.
There's you, with aid from Heartless.
Then there's Imperium/Zelink/MS/others joining because of apathy.
And then there's people like me who aren't on either side yet because of apathy.
Important distinction, that.

(No, not really. TSO's actually pretty right.)

[mastin2]

Got word back.
-Night action only.
-Dead don't show, publicly or to me. :/

You're far too focused in on and around yourself this game and aren't actually reading anything that's going on around you.

On the contrary. I'm reading everything...and kinda wishing I hadn't wasted my time doing so because what I read is worthless and not actually doing anything to convince me one way or the other. My opinion remains unchanged by what people have said.

you don't respect me as a player anymore?

Respect, yes. Trust to be right, no. Be happy I'm not fighting the lynch. I'll give you that much. I also am not going to support it, but at this stage I gave the green light for ZX to do what he pleases.

You can't read how frustrated I am in this game, or you do and you just don't care?

I'm sure if I looked really closely especially at certain areas of the game it would, but nope. Not a drop of your emotions are showing through. Quite impressive, really. Town or scum, you generally will still show them, so it's rather unusual (null, though) that they aren't coming through.

But I'm telling you that if you expected the emotions to be shining through, sorry to disappoint, they just aren't. I hold no doubt to your word about them existing, though. I just don't see them.

[mastin2]

Are we just quoting random things now? I love that game!

Like.
I realize Magua was snarking.

But this?

This is

actually how I feel right now

.

People are quoting random things expecting it to be some sort of groundbreaking revolutionary revolution.
My reaction?
Blank stare. Not even a face, just a simple blank, empty, void of a stare as I see it, and then move on when nothing except that blank stare forms.

[mastin2]

I said they WERE solid, Zelink.

They just have done nothing to make me actually have a desire to lynch TSO.

[mastin2]

Oh, OK.
Who's scum?

If I knew that, I'd be voting.

[mastin2]

I know you can't see it and I know you can't fully trust it, but this game makes me feel tired.

Funny, I'm the same way.

Entirely different causes, but I do understand this much, I assure you, because I know where you're coming from even if the why is different.

I would be much happier if we could actually mesh for once.

I'd love that, too. I don't think we can make it happen today, though, to be perfectly honest. I'd love it if it could, but at this stage, I just think that we need a flip one way or the other.

[mastin2]

But I

feel

good about this lynch, and I feel in my heart that he's going to flip scum.

And I have no feelings about it other than a feeling that I want to stay off the wagon for some reason.

Please, give me a chance.

I am--I'm not fighting the lynch. That's what I'd be doing if I wasn't placing faith in you already. I'd be fighting you right now, trying to defend TSO. But I'm not.

I just...don't think that I can allow myself to join you on it. I'm sorry, but I can't muster up the will. I understand your feeling. I want to trust it. But my own feeling keeps me from just pressing the vote (or even bold) tags with TSO's name in them.

And now instead of you being the crazy one, I am.

[mastin2]

Mastin, who do you think should be lynched today?

I'm not even sure if I want a lynch. The default lynch is TSO, but while I'm not opposing it, I can't find myself supporting it, I just can't, so I really don't know.

[mastin2]

Wait, I got that backwards. I meant giving vezok your bees.

I will not say who I gave bees to.
I will say I gave them already, and that we discussed vezok as an option.

[mastin2]

I'm willing to do anything in my power to get us closer to that point: all you have to do is let me know what I can do.

Hey, that's MY line.

Any ideas you have aside from 'vote TSO' would be appreciated.

[mastin2]

You know this is probably a voting-sangres-in-Sabo moment, but what the hay.

vote espeonage

.
Because I loosely feel like it and it's not gonna end in an Esp lynch, but gets a vote out there even if it's just a nonsensical thing like this.

[mastin2]

So I'm not caught up, but my vote should be somewhere and as discussed in the hood, mastin's claim doesn't clear her as she said it would.

Vote: Mastin

Goddammit.

Now my vote will appear as if it was omgus.

But swear to the gods, had no clue Esp had posted this.

...Still holds, though. It just felt like the right thing to do, when Esp was posting earlier with all that fluff.