Tales of You (Endgame)

[MastinSSK]

Scum field day, here.
Regardless of Carbon's alignment.
They're laughing at this fight.

Because it's doing nothing but helping them.

Lynch PV, lynch me, doesn't matter. Those are the options. Not Rancid. Not Carbon.

[MastinSSK]

Votecount 1-22.5

With 17 players alive, it will take 9 votes to lynch or nolynch.

PeregrineV (2): Kagura, AngryPidgeon,

MastinSSK

MastinSSK (3): CupcakePanda, The Fox and the Hound, Yukari Yakumo
Just Sheep Us (2): orcinus_theoriginal, Red Gyarados
AngryPidgeon (2): Lord Business, Rancid Broderick Drake
CarbonFiber (1): Mac
Rancid Broderick Drake (3): CarbonFiber, Just Sheep Us, PeregrineV


Not Voting (3): Titan, Breaskfast with Stalin, Clyton

With 17 players alive, deadline is set for 18 days: (expired on 2014-04-18 00:01:39)

Current votecount. Seriously.

Rancid:

Get yer vote off of AP. He's not getting lynched today, his alignment regardless.

Lord Business:

Deadline's imminent. You need to contribute.

Orcinus and Brian Skies:

Just Sheep Us isn't getting lynched today. You need to be elsewhere.

Mac:

I would much prefer we lynch PV over Carbon.

Clyton:

You need to come in, weigh things, and take a side. Quickly.

Ffery/Beli:

Your vote was better when it was on me. PV or me should be the lynch, especially if you don't want either Rancid or Carbon lynched.

[MastinSSK]

Oh, hey. That got to the top of the page. Totally accidental.

[MastinSSK]

Could I get a paraphrase of the neighbor QT?
I want to get a handle on F-16's trajectory there. (Pardon, ffery.)
Like...I gather he claimed the miller bit in there, but where was it, exactly? And how did he go about it? And how he treated the players he recruited?

I'm seriously thinking this could be townVtown right now.

[MastinSSK]

I'm going to go all anti-town on y'all and pull a grand Mastin gambit.

VOTE: MastinSSK.
(Not like my vote matters, though.)

Do not lynch Rancid.
Do not lynch Carbon Fiber.

Lynch either myself or PeregrineV.
There are no other options for today.

Not one, but TWO players I'm saying never-lynch, AND entering into a 1v1.

[MastinSSK]

Also, RBD is HATED which means we don't want them around in LYLO. Why is everyone hardcore defending a scummy player that should be policy lynched for being hated that just got counterclaimed as a miller?

Like, I get it.
F-16 looks like scum by play for shit like this.

If he's town, he's seriously off his game.

But I'm seriously thinking he could be.

Maybe he's scum. Maybe. We don't have time today to figure that out, and lynching is too permanent a solution. We'll work it out tomorrow when we have more time.

But right now?
We need a lynch, and it should NOT be on one of the miller claims.

So lynch me, lynch PV, don't care which. It doesn't matter; we're not lynching a miller, goddammit.

[MastinSSK]

1) The most likely one: RBD is scum - lynch him.
2) The much less likely one: RBD is a hater town miller. Hater claims ought to be lynched because they give town one less lynch if they are alive anyways.

So basically, a policy lynch if he's town.

You are trying to figure Carbon's alignment?

Yes. You're not?

VOTE: PeregrineV.

[MastinSSK]

Could I get a paraphrase of the neighbor QT?
I want to get a handle on F-16's trajectory there. (Pardon, ffery.)
Like...I gather he claimed the miller bit in there, but where was it, exactly? And how did he go about it? And how he treated the players he recruited?

Still want this, btw.

My read there is waffling bigtime. Anything you can give will help.

But my PV read isn't wavering any time soon.

[MastinSSK]

He's is so clearly town and has already proven it. The fact you are still even pushing him as scum is....illogical.

This applies to Rancid far, FAR more than it applies to Carbon.

Carbon could be town or could be scum.

Rancid is practically conftown.

[MastinSSK]

So through down a full-on Mastin analysis about why Rancid is town.

Mastin analysis is a paragraph worth of vague statements that have no backing.

Which I've been doing on Rancid for basically the whole day.

Rancid's own posting is plenty proof of that. But basically, he is entirely obvtown. The way he claimed was insanely town. His analysis I have followed perfectly. I've understood him, really "gotten" him. I see what they're thinking. It comes from that town mindset. There's no manipulation. (Aside from 'buddying' me.) There's simply posting good solid thoughts throughout the game. His reads have evolved organically rather than artificially, and basically, everything about the hydra is purely town. The trolling, lighthearted attitude maintained throughout the majority of the game as just one instance. He's not posting like scum fakeclaiming. He's posting like town, analyzing things.

And this is just a halfhearted defense of mine where I throw out random buzzwords. Because bluntly, I don't feel like arguing something that is entirely self-evident.

[MastinSSK]

his play of if they don't flip scum lynch/vig me tomorrow thing feels pretty real. :/

Copying Rancid, who made that claim first.

It didn't feel real at all. Especially since while he's certainly not BPscum, the scum having a protective PR is not out of the equation. For instance, Mafia Doc would be a nice role this game. And then there's also the lack of guarantee of there actually being a vig. Plus, assume Carbon scum. Assume someone on the scumteam is aware that players can assume two millers in a game. Then assume that after a Rancid mislynch, people bring this up as being derp-play from F-16 rather than scumplay, and that the possibility of two millers exists. Thus, a lynch on Carbon would not be assured at all, either.

Also, side-note, but F-16 made a claim near the beginning of the day that he was never getting lynched this game, ever.
I really want to see how he thought that, as a miller, when millers are designed to be a negative-utility role.


Butyeah. Again. A lot of this depends on the conversations in the neighborhood, along with their timing.

[MastinSSK]

If it were self-evident, then Carbon wouldn't have felt the need to claim and Rancid wouldn't have all these votes on him.

You mean all those three votes with you as one of them?

You have just as many votes, if not more, and Carbon's not so hot himself.

[MastinSSK]

Oh.

A thought occurred to me.
Kagura is conftown to me. The bit about the QTs means that Nacho wanted to talk to bork in private about some things...things meaning that Nacho/bork don't have faith in their neighborhood being town. Which is in line with what I think about when I think about Nacho getting neighborized. If he doesn't trust the neighborizer, he's not going to talk openly (but might contribute); if he does, then he's a chatterbox to them.

[MastinSSK]

Guh. Sorry, SSK.
VOTE: Carbon Fiber.

Lol. We are not actually going to get lynched in this game and there are eighteen days left and Tammy will see me as obviously town as she's never yet been wrong. So you might as well find a better vote.
~ F-16

(The post in question, btw.)

[MastinSSK]

I think I've come around a bit back to Carbon being scum, but I'm not sure.

Again, I need to know the timing of things in the neighborhood.
...Which is apparently not happening since nobody's paraphrasing.

[MastinSSK]

I wasn't actually soft-claiming with the "we're not getting lynched." I was looking forward to playing in a Cabd game for a while and it came when I was relatively freer irl so I was going to give it everything I've got, be active and not fall behind. It is more that I intend to give maximum effort into the game, enough to be easily readable as well.

This...doesn't exactly seem to add up.

Like.

At all.

Especially given your posting about your entrance.

And how roles are largely integrated into play for town players.

I mean, this isn't a tunnel. I can see it as town, who was overeager and didn't think things through, who rushed in, arrogantly, and made a lot of bad calls. I can see that picture, of being forgetful, and of having continued to make bad decisions and bad calls. It's not out of reach.

...But that level of derptown is really, reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally stretching things coming from F-16.

[MastinSSK]

1 Kagura (borkjerfkin + nachomamma8)
^Calling them conftown.

2 The Fox and the Hound (cephrir and DV)
^Conveniently largely absent right now. (PROBABLY just convenience, since if both halves are V/LA, absence is null. But otherwise.) Still a scumread, but I feel like they've largely fallen out of focus.

3 Yukari Yakumo
^Similarly out-of-focus, but not a strong townread. Fairly null overall. I feel like the Abyss members has scum in them, and if Carbon's not it, then GiF's probably my best bet.

4 orcinus_theoriginal
^Eh, minor townread.

5 Titan (Tammy + Sir Arthur Dane)
^I'm calling her conftown at this point.

6 Rancid Broderick Drake (zmuffinman and natirasha)
^Also obvtown.

8 Breakfast With Stalin (Hydra of ffery and beli)
^Less obvtown, but still fairly strongly town.

9 ANgryPidgeon 9 ElementalHawk (Prohawk+3dicerolling)
^Meh. We'll tackle each other later. Civilly. After deadline.

10 Carbon Fiber (FourTrouble and F16)
^Leaning scum, overall, but not sure.

11 Lord Business
^Probably town.

12 Just Sheep Us (Broseidon and Desperado)
^Probably not scum at this juncture. Again, I feel like the Abyss has some scum on it, but I don't think it's them.

13 Red Gyarados (Brian Skies and notscience)
^Decently town.

14 Cupcake Panda
^Mehtown.

15 PeregrineV
^Should be our lynch today.

16 Clyton
^His posting is very strongly looking town to me, right now.

17 Mac
^Also strongly town.


I realize I only really have three true scumreads, on PV, Carbon(ish), and Fox/Hound, which means I'm not entirely right. But this still feels fairly solid overall, as a decent starting point.

[MastinSSK]

YO, GIFFY BOY.
You're online.
Posting.

Stop yer damn lurking and contribute here.

[MastinSSK]

Paranoia theory:
There is no neighborhood for today.
The claimed neighborhood is entirely made up of scum.
/AP.
(Because this is totally AP's type of theory to make.)

[MastinSSK]

The claimed neighborhood is entirely made up of scum.

(But seriously. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that the scumteam is nearly entirely in one game. Normal scumteam mechanics imply one scum in a neighborhood--or in this case, one scum/game. [How many games are there? If four, this would be perfect.] CABD scumteam mechanics could easily mean one TOWN in a neighborhood.

Still, though. This is the paranoia talking. Worth considering later, but not now.)

[MastinSSK]

You are really REALLY going to have to explain the KAgura conftown read to me. Im getting really annoyed at everyone shaking me off with "Ya, they are just town" every time I ask about them. RBD? Town. KAgura? Uhhhh, why? WHY? They are not a presence in the game at all recently, CERTAINLY not one that can be written off as town.

Well, it's speculation off of how I believe Nacho handles being neighborized in a game, and neighborhoods in general, especially when he's a hydra. As scum, he doesn't have much incentive to tell bork to go into a private QT. (Or even scum QT for that matter.) He has incentive to tell bork to go into a private hydra QT if he's town, with commentary he does not want to reveal to his neighbors.

Thus, the conftownness.

But bork's someone who is apparently fairly easily read. And I can get it. I'm probably not the best one to explain them being obvtown, though.

[MastinSSK]

This p5 flash wagon over mastin or RBD is shit.

Okay. How many of {Kagura, AP, Mac} are you scumreading?
Townreading?
Nullreading?

'Cause that's the PV wagon.

[MastinSSK]

This p5 flash wagon over mastin or RBD is shit.

Okay. How many of {Kagura, AP, Mac} are you scumreading?
Townreading?
Nullreading?

Additionally, if townread, how much do you trust in their competency?
If not a scumread, how much trust are you willing to place in them in spite of them not being a townread?

[MastinSSK]

Votecount 1-24

With 17 players alive, it will take 9 votes to lynch or nolynch.

PeregrineV (4): Kagura, AngryPidgeon,

MastinSSK

, Mac, Clyton,
MastinSSK (3): CupcakePanda, The Fox and the Hound, Yukari Yakumo,
Just Sheep Us (2): orcinus_theoriginal, Red Gyarados
AngryPidgeon (2): Lord Business, Rancid Broderick Drake
Rancid Broderick Drake (3): CarbonFiber, Just Sheep Us, PeregrineV

Not Voting (2): Titan, Breaskfast with Stalin

With 17 players alive, deadline is set for 18 days: (expired on 2014-04-18 00:01:39)

Derp. Forgot Clyton.
Speaking of which, that PV wagon actually has promise. If Rancid switches his vote, that's 5/9.

[MastinSSK]

PeregrineV (4): Kagura, AngryPidgeon,

]MastinSSK

, Mac,

Clyton

,

Hey mastin:

Bolded are the names of people that are below the null/null-scum line.

Except my vote doesn't actually count.

And you've done zero explaining on Clyton.

(For that matter, very little on me, but eh.)

And that doesn't answer my questions:
Who (if any) on there are you townreading? And how much competency do you place in them?
Who is null? And how much do you trust them?

Oh come on. I'm the only person who correctly read you when you came in.

You know what I'm capable of doing when I turn on. Why the fuck aren't you working with me.

The question isn't why he isn't working with you, but why you're not working with him.

[MastinSSK]

...I kinda want to lynch Angry Pigeon.

So do I, doesn't mean he's mafia, though.

<3 AP.

(He could be, but eh, not today. We'll hash it out later.)

[MastinSSK]

It's not out of the ordinary for scum to throw up a humongous argument like you and Mastin did and thinking you guys might be bussing isn't inherently anti-town.

It's not the action, it's the way it was done. Circumstances. Also, it's the players doing it; if you know the history behind us, then you'd know the context for why it's impossible.

Mastin do you remember good v evil?

Only being despised at the disgusting chaotic good players (aside from Regfan) and deeply impressed by the lawful good ones. And that I lost because of the LG ones (I 1v1'd Nacho!), not the CG ones. And that MoS getting nightkilled was very bad. Other than that, not really.

But, I don't see the point when either one of you had a lightbulb moment and realized you were wrong.

Because none exists. It wasn't so much us realizing we were wrong so much as us realizing we COULD be wrong. Believe me. Assuming town, AP feels the same way as I do on this: we'll need to sort each other later. Our fight wasn't resolved, so much as postponed and morphed into reluctant stares as we shake hands but keep eyeing for daggers aimed for our back.

(Well, neck in my case. )

[MastinSSK]

If you guys know each other oh so well, then especially since y'all are not quite townreading each other, won't y'all want to sort each other soon?
Why put it off to tomorrow? The damage is already done in this thread anyway.

Because there's literally one day until deadline.

[MastinSSK]

Only being despised at the disgusting chaotic good players (aside from Regfan) and deeply impressed by the lawful good ones. And that I lost because of the LG ones (I 1v1'd Nacho!), not the CG ones.

(BTW, since I felt like reminiscing. The mechanic of the game was two towns in one, three scum each. The towns didn't have to win together, nor the scum. The chaotic good players only cared about killing lawful evil players and were as selfish as could be. The lawful good players were, throughout the entirety of the game, trying to figure out the best way both towns could win, and they paid for it with their lives; nearly every single NK that game was on a lawful good player for good reason. I considered the lawful good team to be worthy opponents, and was glad to have fought them. Heck, I was proud to have gotten my town into a 4p mylo against such players! The chaotic good players, on the other hand, cruised to victory not off of skill, but by selfishly worrying about preservation and such. Aside from Regfan, nobody on that team truly deserved the win, as I remember it, because they put zero effort into winning, whereas LG players quite literally put 200% into winning.)

[MastinSSK]

That was my first completed game on this site! (My other game was eaten by tigers )

Oh, and part of the reminiscing I did was look at the mafia QT for my faction. I made some really, really long walls which were actually fairly insightful, for the time.

I think all of the neighbors are town. CF is so bloody transparent in the neighbor thread (migrated from QT!) that it hurts.

So paraphrase it, goddammit.

(Oh, and speaking of the neighborhood. I'd actually love to be neighborized. Which players shouldn't fear--I'm a master of QT manipulation*, not thread manipulation, meaning even if I was scum, I'd be less competent!)

* Hey, AP. I want to see you grumbling in a certain place's postgame.

[MastinSSK]

One of these days Im going to just mod a bastard game where I assign roles to everyone who /ins as I please and make mastin a Serial Killer Neighborizer

Been a serial killer once.
(Didn't go so well. To be fair, it was xReck as a dirty scumbag who got me lynched.)
Been a neighborizer once. (Didn't go so well, never got to use it. Because it was a JOAT power and I used the cop first and...the town lynched me before my guilty. Guess who won THAT game.)
Encountered a neighborizing-SK once. (Thor, if you're curious.)
Didn't go well for him. (Not exactly well for me, either, since scum won that game.)

Guess it really WOULD be Bastard.

[MastinSSK]

(Side-note, but there's basically nothing I haven't either seen, been, or experienced. With the MASSIVE number of games I've been in, combined with me having read a TON I never was in--especially during my year-long hiatus--means that I'm well-versed on basically nearly every famous role, famous mechanic, and famous game. There are a few I haven't read, but I've read more than I haven't.)

[MastinSSK]

(Oh, and famous player, too. If a scummer's been around in a game since 2009--ANY game, really--they're more likely to have encountered me than not.)

[MastinSSK]

THE PROBLEM.
IS THAT.
THE MAIN REASONS FOR CARBON BEING TOWN.
ARE QT(/thread) DEPENDENT.

It's not about lying. It's about how Carbon's in-thread presence makes no sense, yet everyone inside the neighborhood is insisting that the content there is insanely town. Yet we've got nothing, no paraphrase, to help us see that trajectory that is town.

[MastinSSK]

Compare the Syryana's reaction to my miller cc and RBD's reaction to CF's miller cc.
What do you think?

The difference is circumstantial.

Syryana? Saw the counterclaim, and the way you did it was town. Your CC was done in a town way, so Syryana townread you for it. It literally went,
"I'm a miller."
"Sincerely doubt there's two."
"Waiting on if that's serious."
"It is."
"Well, that was done in a town way, so I think it's possible you're town."

This game?
"I'm a miller.
*later*
No, seriously, I am."

*much, much, much later*
"I'm counterclaiming miller. Here's why I didn't claim it initially, and why I haven't been focusing on the miller claim being scum."
"Wait, there are...issues...with the narrative you're presenting."

And there are. The context is important. F-16's play isn't impossible to come from town, but there IS reasonable amounts of doubt about it being from town, given the issues in the claim. (ISSUES. THAT. PARAPHRASING. WOULD. HELP. WITH. I might add.)
Your play wasn't impossible to come from scum, but there was basically no doubt that it was from town anyway.

[MastinSSK]

Trust in GIF.
Your problem is now solved.

GiF's voting me.

Trusting him is not exactly something I'm receptive to doing.

[MastinSSK]

Also scum counterclaiming a miller makes no freaking sense because if RBD actually flips miller he'll get all the

love

suspicion on him next day.

Suspicion, yes.

Lynch, I've already described why maybe not.

But I AM wavering a lot. I'm not saying it's impossible for him to be town. There's a good 40-45% chance of it, even. The scumread isn't strong and does waver a lot as I think about it. And this is one of the points contributing to that. But there's a lot in F-16's play that is just, well...is just highly, highly...iffy, for lack of a better word.

[MastinSSK]

In buzzword Syryana's response was "ok cool you're town let's work together"
In here RBD looks like he's instead trying to discredit the counterclaim.

Get the difference?

The difference is the circumstances behind the claim. The person with the initial claim is town both times, but analyzes the separate counterclaims. I see the same mindset. I see a different conclusion, off of...a different counterclaim. Variable here isn't the alignment of the claimer; the variable is the claim of the CCer.

[MastinSSK]

Like, I don't see discrediting.

I see analysis, and concluding BS.

[MastinSSK]

Also why does it matter that he claimed miller way late?

Because it was done a day before deadline,
As a CC,
When there was little focus on getting the original miller claim lynched.

Simply put, there's no trajectory for it; it doesn't add up from what we have in-thread.
(WHICH.
AGAIN.
IS.
WHY.
PARAPHRASING.
THE.
GOD.
DAMNED.
QT.
WOULD.
HELP.)

There's an extreme lack of town thought process behind the timing and circumstances behind the counterclaim. AS FAR AS I CAN TELL, anyway.

[MastinSSK]

oh hi there mastin I bet there are two scum in the Abysm, wanna guess who?

Carbon and Yygra? (The question mark is because I don't remember your DesBro read.)

Why does that need a trajectory?

Because it doesn't make sense as town for him to have acted the way he did if his claim is truthful. Thus, the (quite reasonable!) doubt about the counterclaim from Rancid.

[MastinSSK]

Scum is {DespBRO+F-16) so Nacho's confirmed town and whoever the other person in the abysm as well.

Oh. Nevermind. You're townreading them. (They're a mehread of mine.)

[MastinSSK]

orcinus was a scum hider.

Technically speaking, no, he wasn't.
DRAMONIC, on the other hand...
(That smiley is so flexible.)

[MastinSSK]

What was mastin's role again? I didn't read pages 60-90 so I missed it I think.

Oh, shit.

So

that's

how it works. (And here I was hoping we could pull a fake-hammer gambit.)

It's only about a third of our claim (eh, more like 2/5ths), but I might as well fullclaim that aspect of our role. I'm not going to randomly fullclaim everything, but part of our role dictates that our vote doesn't count when on the lead wagon until there are nine or less players alive, akin to Saki being hated while there's more than five alive.

So basically, we can vote, but our vote won't count towards the lynch of a player (since lynching requires a player to BE the lead wagon) until 9 players. Thus, why I believe that we have four scum, since that's the cutoff point.

Claim: Ruca Milda, Reincarnated God

.

I am essentially a modified treestump. It's not called that. And is broken into two halves, but is the best description for my role. I'm not just nightkill immune. I'm immune to ANY form of death except lynch. That's the death-immune part. The no vote part you've already seen. I am a child from innocence from Naraka (which, yes, means I'm an innocence child ), but thanks to this trope (actually, a cousin trope, but it's the actual name of the ability, so I'm not sure I can claim that), I'm classified as both male AND female for abilities dependent on gender.

You can find my iso literally filled to the brim with things about this.
Like why this is a strong ability, why I wasn't afraid to hint at it, why I wanted to be investigated (because a scum who is both kill-immune AND investigation-immune is horribly overpowered), and why I said that it's a role that would either conftown me or get me speedlynched. (Depending on how it's perceived.)

The PM was quite specific.
All forms of death except lynch.

Which implies there's forms of death other than nightkill. Poison. Daykills. Strongman-kills (which I'm probably immune to). Or maybe there are multiple ways of death during the night (vig + mafia, for instance), and the wording was just a catch-all "you're BP". Heck, it's a Cabd game; it could be a massive red herring which simply means, "immune to mafia's kill". I can speculate all I'd like on what could be in the game off of that phrase, but the phrase exists all the same.
------------
I gain my vote back at 9 players. With four scum alive, that's lylo.

NOT. HAVING. MY. VOTE. UNTIL. NINE. PLAYERS. WHILE. BEING. BULLETPROOF. IS. A. MODIFIED TREESTUMP.

I said modified.

Modified

. On both halves. Total kill immunity but not lynch immunity. (Tree stumps can't be lynched.) No vote until nine players. (Gaining the vote back is not part of the treestump role.) MODIFIED. But still best described. AS BEING A FUCKING TREESTUMP.

It's a fairly fucking self-explanatory role.
I can't die, except by lynch.
I can't successfully vote, except when there's 9 players or fewer.
Not being able to die but losing your vote is a treestump.
The abilities when combined make...a fucking modified treestump.

So wait, you're a

shittier

tree stump.
And you're calling it the most powerful role ever?

No, it's modified. Stronger in some ways, weaker in others. And it is a strongish role, yes. Not as strong as I implied, yes. Because the whole idea of softclaiming was to get scum to nightkill me.

Should be all the relevant quotes.

[MastinSSK]

Oh, hey, I actually know that song!

He was pushing RBD, wasn't quite getting what he wants, so he adds a counterclaim to further boost the push.

He wasn't getting what he wanted because he wasn't pushing Rancid as anything other than an after-thought; his main push was on me. And then me-plus-AP. Rancid was tacked on each time. Not as the center.

There's the issue.

[MastinSSK]

I am never goingto hear the end of this, am I >.>

I can put 5 town total in a 9p game....Twice. I can put two millers in a game. I can put a hider and JK in the same game.

But THE most egregious thing. Is a damn odd nioght hider role that cant even interact with any of the town power meaningfully >.>

Yes and yes.

[MastinSSK]

Will get to the rest in a bit after combing through the pages I skimmed but Yggdra Union is holy fuck town.

I'm actually willing to believe that.
And know what?
I'm also willing to believe that you're town.

In fact, I'm thinking of compiling the playerlist one last time...but going through the eliminations, why they're eliminated, and the leftovers and my read on them and what is the likely scumteams that can exist from that.

Just need to catch up. (Seriously, three pages in half an hour?)

[MastinSSK]

I am not arrogantly arguing that my reads are better.

Coulda fooled me.

Because your read on me hasn't changed the whole game, and has been on shaky-at-best reasoning. (You scumread me for scumreading you...when you later admitted to ffery that your entrance was not a good one into the game. Why is me scumreading you for it initially different than ffery not townreading you for what you yourself said was not a good entrance?)

Me, BRO, Desp, Pieguyn all agree that Rancid is town and that's why I think you should maybe reconsider that Nati was specifically appealing to you as opposed to any of the rest of us. Even if you are so confident, at least don't take his word that MastinSSK is town and lynch Mastin.

You have all these people calling me town. All these people who have an intimate game history with me. zMuffinman, in particular. (Heck, now that it's over, I can mention Paranoia Mafia. I replaced in as the mafia don N1, basically the only scumbag with a kill. Without reading a single word of the game, I blindly nightkilled zMuffinman,

specifically because I was afraid he'd catch me

.) And in spite of their consistent feedback telling you you're wrong...

...You've maintained that confidence throughout the entirety of the game, on that shaky reasoning, that somehow, all these players who know me well have somehow been masterfully fooled by me all of a sudden yet mystically caught by you. So, F-16. You say you're not arrogantly arguing your reads are better. But with you being town? That's

exactly

what you're actually doing.

And I'm appealing to real life, but i don't think mastin would be able to be this enthusiastic about the game given the mental health issues if everyone was right.

(I, uh. Have actually devoted an unhealthily large chunk of time to this game.)

[MastinSSK]

1) I am arguing that Muffin is scum with you.

Well, then, don't use the word town when you mean scum.

2) BRO and AP caught you in Anything Goes even while Kuribo and DGB were oblivious to it. I am not talking about player skill, I am talking about you tailoring your game to appeal to specific players.

I did zero tailoring of my play in Anything Goes; that was Katsuki. Okay, I lied. Know who I tailored my play to? AP. I played that game specifically hoping to fool him. (Until I legitimately scumread him, that is. Then I tried to lynch him thinking it wasn't a mislynch.) It didn't work. It seriously didn't work. You're saying that I'm a masterful scum player enough that I can instantly manage to fool the players who are most proven to not be fooled by me. But if it were that easy, I'd have Don Corelone under my name. I don't because it's not. Because I can't. There are giveaways each and every time, for players who actually know me. And you're ignoring all of their input in favor of your own.

Oh, and speaking of tailoring games to specific players, you're ignoring that Fox/Hound did exactly this.

You're as biased as can be.

I also think you had BRO and Desp down as a mislynch which is why they caught you as did the heads of the Fox and the Hound.

And what I said as a joke I now say seriously, because fuck it, your argument is bullshit so I get to use some BS meta to counter it. I "had BRO and Desp down as a mislynch"...in House Party, as town. (That is, I pushed both as being scum. They scumread me.) I had Desp down as a mislynch in Anything Goes, yes, but the treatment was entirely different.

Oh, and how could I forget obvtown Katsuki who hydra'd with you in that mega scum win is also scumreading you.

And also misread me in Tales. Antitown (Kats's alt that game) had their vote on my slot basically the entirety of the time Kats was there.

For someone who's apparently relying on meta a fair amount...you've done basically zero research into the meta of the players voting me (hint: they've done so crappily in the past), nor into the players defending me (hint: they've all had excellent track records with me).

[MastinSSK]

all I got from this is that F-16 is town and you're manipulating him instead of trying to work with him on his read on you

Oh, I've given up on trying to make him work with me. That implies he's actually reasoning, willing to cast a benefit of the doubt. He's not. There's a reason my read there has been wavering, but I've been growing increasingly aware that Hanlon's Razor is sadly true. That, yes. It's not scum. It's just really, really crappy play.

The thing about it is, a scum me is competent. A scum me has been able to consistently manipulate the strings...

successfully

. Most recently, in Paranoia Mafia, a mini theme, where I not only fooled the town, but also fooled my own scumbuddy GreyICE and eluded AP. A scum me is not easily defined by some shitty tell you have in your book. You never see the actual scum me coming, unless you're a player who intimately knows me (in which case, you struggle to define why I'm scum in tangible terms because objectively I look town in spite of you knowing otherwise). Because the actual scum me knows what she's doing. And does it well. She plans. She manipulates. And she makes sure that even if you somehow have her nailed, there's a path to victory for her scumbuddies.

And if you seriously think that my play this game matches this description, then you've lost all credit you ever have of reading me ever again. Because there's no manipulation. There's no plan. There's simply scumhunting. Analyzing. And an attempt to understand, figure things out. There's nothing there.

this is exactly the same shit you pulled on Tammy in AOT where you kept asking her "lolol who's scum when I flip town" in order to make her waver on her read on you

Yes, it is. It was a good question to ask, then. It's a good question now.

this is also bullshit btw. are you srsly arguing that, bc a few other ppl are townreading you, that means F-16 should be too?

Sort-of, yes. I'm pointing out that if his words of working with others actually carried any weight he would. I'm saying that if he actually believed himself not to be arrogant, he'd be listening to what they're saying. I don't expect him to townread me for it. But if he was town-that's-not-arrogant, I'd expect him to be at least hesitant to scumread me.

He hasn't been.

was anything off about it to you?

F-16 has explicitly said his entrance into the game wasn't strong. He's explicitly said that he understands why people didn't townread him for it. So, no. There shouldn't be anything 'off' about me having had an initial scumread. Especially since, guess what? My read evolved. When F-16 began to have much stronger posting, my read on him became much better.

her 180 seems like it came in response to finding out her F-16 lynch wasn't gonna work

Fuck it, I don't need to wait for a response to this post. If you seriously think a scum-me is worried about a mislynch not working,

you know absolutely

nothing

about how a scum me thinks

. Because I don't give a damn about the lynchability of a player. I lynch who I damn-well please.

[MastinSSK]

The enemies-into-teammates bit with AP is weird and sudden.

Welcome to AP-and-Mastin(-both-as-town?) interactions. You get used to it after a few games.

pretty sure mastin's down the mastingambit as scum

In fact I have. I'm not sure if it's been multiple times, but I know I just pulled it in Paranoia.

Yeah, it was an extremely half-hearted gambit (if you read the words, you could tell it was entirely empty); the LAST thing I wanted was to actually be lynched. But it looked damn good, all the same.

All these mastin arguments are like.... "ya ok maybe mastin is doing town things.....

but she could just be manipulating us

"

This is a surprisingly good description.

[MastinSSK]

1 Kagura (borkjerfkin + nachomamma8)
^

Conftown, removed from list.

If for no other reason, the hydra QT comment again to me reads as a major townslip as far as I'm concerned.

2 The Fox and the Hound (cephrir and DV)
^Scumread, but tackling later.

3 Yggdra Union (giffy and pieguyn) 3 Yukari Yakumo
^

Considered town

. Removed from the list. Bluntly, I've got zero read here, but unlike impostors pretending to be open, I

actually

trust others, and in this case, with me not really scumreading them, I'm trusting the townread. Their posting does look town, albeit not very helpful town.

4 orcinus_theoriginal
^Tackling later.

5 Titan (Tammy + Sir Arthur Dane)
^

Removed from list.

Tammy's posting has been strongly town, and others consider her obvtown, too.

6 Rancid Broderick Drake (zmuffinman and natirasha)
^

Obvtown; removed from list.

I don't care what their claim is. Rancid's play has been insanely town, and if anyone bothered to read them off of play rather than role, they'd be able to tell as much.

8 Breakfast With Stalin (Hydra of ffery and beli)
^Townread, but not removed from list.

9 AngryPidgeon 9 ElementalHawk (Prohawk+3dicerolling)
^Meh, at this stage wouldn't surprise me to be town but this still needs sorting.

10 Carbon Fiber (FourTrouble and F16)
^

Town, removed from list

. Not only can I see the town narrative (albeit not strongly), I also trust others' read, here.

11 Lord Business
^Not removed from list, in spite of having been a townread.

12 Just Sheep Us (Broseidon and Desperado)
^Nullscumread, so obviously still in list.

13 Red Gyarados (Brian Skies and notscience)
^

Removed from list

, for reasonz. (And ns being obvtown at beginning.)

14 Cupcake Panda
^Probably town, but not strongly enough to be removed from the list.

15 PeregrineV
^Scum, so obviously in running.

16 Clyton
^Actually, there's a concern about Clyton. Though townread, still in list.

17 Mac
^

Obvtown; removed from running

. Mac's been highly, highly town the entire game.

So when you remove the town names, you're left with:
2 The Fox and the Hound (cephrir and DV)
4 orcinus_theoriginal
8 Breakfast With Stalin (Hydra of ffery and beli)
9 AngryPidgeon 9 ElementalHawk (Prohawk+3dicerolling)
11 Lord Business
12 Just Sheep Us (Broseidon and Desperado)
14 Cupcake Panda
15 PeregrineV
16 Clyton

...Nine names. A little over double, so oh heck with it, might as well explain further so that we can eliminate some.

8 Breakfast With Stalin (Hydra of ffery and beli)
^The concern here has been in ffery's lack of strong presence, I suppose I could say, but overall, they're still one of my stronger townreads. The reason basically boils down to their thought process. Though there's not much to see, what I do see looks insanely town, and I can follow their thoughts. They seem to be asking all of the right questions, and be considering things and I've really liked a lot of their overall presence, even if it's not been something easily identified as being a strong one.

So while they can be scum, I don't really think they are.

14 Cupcake Panda
^F-16's case is a good basic starting point for this one, as is Katsuki's overall lack of extreme presence. While Katsuki has somewhat learned to control the lurking/not-lurking scumtell (lurking more as scum, and being slightly more active as town), the tell still is somewhat telling, in that a town-Kats is less motivated to actually put in the effort into looking/being town and is content to just do what Kats does.



Leaving:
2 The Fox and the Hound (cephrir and DV)
4 orcinus_theoriginal
9 AngryPidgeon 9 ElementalHawk (Prohawk+3dicerolling)
11 Lord Business
12 Just Sheep Us (Broseidon and Desperado)
15 PeregrineV
16 Clyton

I know. That's three more than it should be, but it's a good starting point if nothing else.

And my basic rundown.

I still think that Fox/Hound is likely to be scum, but I'm actually not sure about that anymore.
Orcinus is quite frankly alarming. His overall lack of presence and focus on ffery/Tammy seems a bit...well, off, honestly.
AP is, well. AP. I still need time to sort him.
LB's been a townread, but I'm concerned by his lack of presence right now.
DesBRO is a minor scumread, because I can see them having their stances as town (sadly), but overall still lean towards scum.
PV's my strongest scumread, because a town PV simply approaches the game in an entirely different manner than what he's shown here.
Clyton's been a townread, but honestly, I'm growing concerned. His posting has looked good (albeit hollow in tone), and he's been raising a lot of good ideas, but I'm worried that he's looked good without having achieved good.


If I were to sort them from most-town to least-town, it'd go something like this:
Clyton
LB
Orcinus
AP
DesBRO
Fox/Hound
PeregrineV

...However, this doesn't feel right. It doesn't really feel right at all. It needs heavy, heavy refinement, 'cause I was really hoping for something more concrete than this. :/

[MastinSSK]

Randomly throwing out a guess of PV, DespBRO, Orc, and LB at this point in time, for what it's worth. Just a general overall guess.

Fox/Hound would be a nice substitute for one of the three, but eh, not sure.

Clyton does look town. So I do want to believe that's town.
And AP. Well. He could be scum. But the vibe I get is that our spat mighta been townVtown. I realize that a scum-him would want me to think exactly that, but in general, AP's thinking seems to not be as scum to me as it was before. Meaning he either hit all the correct notes as scum or is actually town. As I said, I need time to develop this read; he could still be scum. But my current thinking is that he's not.

But I'm not sure. I mean, I've townread both Orc and LB and my read on DesBro isn't exactly a scumread. But between them, PV, and Fox/Hound, I simply don't see anyone outside who's likely to be scum.

[MastinSSK]

Mastin can you point me to the bork quote that looks like a townslip?

The bit in his posting you thought was a scumslip.

With him having a neighborhood QT, and Nacho mentioning a hydra QT, again, it's a townslip of town thoughts. I suppose it's theoretically something that scum could have done (made a hydra QT when they explicitly don't need one), or something they could have faked, but it looks really, really legitimate,

especially

given what I know about Nacho as a hydra player. He reuses hydra QTs, for instance, and if in this game, he was neighborized yet didn't want to share a thought with his neighbors (which he does do), then using the hydra QT would be a great way to do so.

Again. Very strongly indicates town mindset.

[MastinSSK]

says the person who generally treats objectively bad play from an objectively good player as a decent scumtell?

Umm. That's AP's saying. Not mine.

I used it against AP at a time where I thought AP was scum.

if you're not trying to manipulate him, what are you trying to do here?

Rant, of course. It's just that my caps lock and exclamation mark quota has been exceeded for the gameday, meaning that my rants are more subtle. (Only half-joking.)

from your in-thread actions, one can figure out what your motivations are, and by doing so figure out your alignment.

Then why the fuck am I not a townread?

what exactly is the point of this?

Ranting at you for repeating Xenosaga without a second of pausing to think about how you're misreading me.

you do know you were scum in that game right

Doesn't change the fact that it was a good question to ask.

I don't see where you're going with any of your questions to F-16

Well, at the time I asked the question, I hadn't given up hope, so the point at the time was to hopefully inspire a whammy in him when he realized he had nothing if I was town. I also wasn't entirely sure he was town, and was hoping for some sort of answer. But eh. Him scumreading me stubbornly at this point is on him, not me.

Sort-of, yes. I'm pointing out that if his words of working with others actually carried any weight he would. I'm saying that if he actually believed himself not to be arrogant, he'd be listening to what they're saying. I don't expect him to townread me for it. But if he was town-that's-not-arrogant, I'd expect him to be at least hesitant to scumread me.

what the actual fuck is this?

Exactly what it sounds like. There's no attempt to scumread him. Nor any attempt to discredit him, unless him being arrogant inherently discredits him. (In which case, sure, it counts as discrediting.) There is simply pointing out that he's lying to himself about not being arrogant.

Same as with you.

there is literally no way in hell F-16 is ever going to be lynched this game.

Him having multiple times been a leading wagon with traction implies otherwise. Sure, he's probably not going to get lynched, but saying he never could be lynched? Nah. He could be. He just won't be.

the rest of his posting is very transparent which is smth scum F-16 can't fake.

To those who have the neighborhood, yes. But I don't see it off of his in-thread posting. I see him as town, because the connection's there, loosely enough that I can connect the dots and see the picture form, even though the picture forming is mostly of arrogance beyond what I was hoping a town-him could muster.

so yeah I would expect you to be worried about a possible mislynch on F-16 not working

If I'm worried about a mislynch not working, I never bother to push the mislynch. I defend the player instead. You'd know this by basically researching any of my scumgames where I do anything even resembling WKing.

You're just trying to ask a bunch of smokescreening questions and cause enough confusion to derail the lynch off yourself.

...Except the lead wagon, PV, is precisely who I'm aiming to get lynched. There's no smokescreen, no derailing. The players doing the derailing are you, F-16, and DesBro, because the wind has blown onto PeregrineV.

srsly, where the fuck are you actually going with any of these angles?

If you actually bothered to read, you'd know the answer already. A scum me has an angle, has a plan, in place for victory. The very fact that you think that there are multiple angles in my posting shows why I'm not scum. Because multiple angles means that I'd lack direction. Lack clarity. Something a scum me never does. (Though I can fake it, admittedly.)

until you can come up with some actual legitimate points, I won't bother responding to any of your posts, as there's no need to. get rekt ~

Okay, so normally, I'd say "At least when I'm arrogant, I have the decency to admit I'm arrogant", which was true early-game, but I can't say that with a straight face after arguing with AP and about Fox/Hound. But at least when I'm arrogant, I

generally

am willing to accept that, yes, I'm arrogant. If you actually said this out loud, you'd realize what I mean.

[MastinSSK]

Tl;dr, I think they are both scum but will settle for the lynch that is more achievable and that at least one of your heads is fully behind as opposed to continuing pushing Rancid with you pushing a compromise wagon.

The problem with this is that thinking zMuffin is town necessitates thinking I am town.

Sure, yeah, sadly not vice-versa.

And, sure, yeah. zMuffinman scum means nothing for my alignment.

But if there's doubt about zMuffinman being scum, they're not going to vote either Rancid or me because of that.

Weren't you one of the people telling me tht my semantics argument was a reach though :S

I thought painting them as being scum for it was itself scummy. Painting them as being town for it, however, makes sense now that we know about the neighborhood. Circumstances are everything, and all that.

So I really dunno what to make of Ceph's posts recently. The mastin read is weird and the flop onto RBD feels uninspired?

Why is it that when you're beginning to actually be suspicious of them, I'm beginning to

not

be suspicious of them? >_<
(That made more sense in my head.)

[MastinSSK]

Votecount 1-26

With 17 players alive, it will take 9 votes to lynch or nolynch.

PeregrineV (4): Kagura, AngryPidgeon,

MastinSSK

, Mac, Clyton,
MastinSSK (2): CupcakePanda, Yggdra Union
Just Sheep Us (3): orcinus_theoriginal, Red Gyarados, Rancid Broderick Drake
AngryPidgeon (1): Lord Business
Rancid Broderick Drake (4): CarbonFiber, Just Sheep Us, PeregrineV, The Fox and the Hound

Not Voting (2): Titan, Breaskfast with Stalin

With 17 players alive, deadline is set for 18 days: (expired on 2014-04-18 00:01:39)

There does need to be scum on Rancid, by the way, though the question is whether it's one or two. And if only one, which it is and where off the wagon to look.

Kinda thinking Lord Business actually is scum, here, though, but I've got nothing. It goes against my read on LB having been a townread, but with POE as it currently is, it's a real possibility.
The thing making me doubt one/both of orc/DesBro being scum would be orc's vote there, though bussing wouldn't be out of the equation, especially since orc's vote was a throwaway vote and he hasn't done much.

/lazy half-hearted VCA.

[MastinSSK]

I am looking forward to something, though.

I mean.
When I'm proven wrong.
I'm honest enough to admit it, and recognize my screwup.

I'm deeply.
Deeply.
Interested to see what F-16 and pie do.

If they're men enough to man up and admit they've fucked up, or if they pin the blame on the player they just mislynched. Which applies regardless of whether they'd get a Muffin or Mastin mislynch.

[MastinSSK]

('Course, obviously, I'm advocating PV be lynched.
But if one of us two was to be lynched, I am deeply curious to see what type of reaction it is. If it's "*lynchedplayer*, what the fuck.", maybe with optional blacklisting, or maybe they press on to mislynch the other. Or if they admit that yes, they were full of shit.

Like, when I read my posts, I can tell they were arrogant. When reading their posts, I can also tell they're arrogant. If they actually pulled off a mislynch, then I've got a vested interest in learning if they deserve to be called students of mine.)

[MastinSSK]

(And of course pie's going to call that manipulative.
Don't give a damn.
It's the truth.

Sure, truth is the most powerful weapon of a scum player, but it still stings sharply when utilized by a rambling town player.
F-16 is being arrogant. pie is being arrogant. They claim not to be at the top of the world, yet their actions don't match those words.
So I need to ramble about it.)

[MastinSSK]

Oh, and while we're on the subject of me rambling,
I have the third-highest post count this game.

Tammy's a beast who has the highest, with a slight aid from SAD.

AP's a beast, who at second place in spite of being a replacement is truly impressive.

There are two players close to me, Stalin and Rancid, both hydras. (Yes, I realize I'm also a hydra, but SSK's basically done something like ten posts. I guess I could ping him again, though I'm not sure he'd have much to say other than "DON'T LYNCH RANCID YOU MORONS" which I'm already doing plenty of myself. ) Both also with one head dominant, but still. Fairly impressive overall.

I basically never get this high in games. I typically only get into the lower-hundreds. So there's that to also be somewhat proud of. (Granted, having a high post count isn't exactly something to be bragging about, given that it makes isoing a pain. But I can't help but feel that pride anyway that, yes. I got that much typed, and it was basically all content. Even if content not valuable to the me in the now.)

[MastinSSK]

It's pissing me off.

Like I care about pissing you off.

You're town, you've earned it.
You're scum, it's good for me.

[MastinSSK]

I do hope that if you're town (big if at this point), your right to read me has been revoked.

[MastinSSK]

*Do hope you realize

[MastinSSK]

You've never read me correctly, even when you've been scum, so...

Yes, I have.
Oh, I read you wrong in the same games I read you right.

But unlike you, my read actually evolved. Because I'm not an arrogant asshole that has too high an opinion of myself. So I managed to get the right read, in spite of the initial misread.



I kinda wish that I could summon the calmness I have right here and now in post-game. Because come post-game, be it mental health or time constraints, I'm not going to be like this. I'll either be unavailable or will be available in such a bad mood that all I do is rant and chastise without focusing on the constructive half of my criticisms. But needless to say, the town in your little trio, be it one, two, or all three (two most likely), would be the receiver(s) of a rather massive one. In massive part because actual students of mine would listen to my teachings and realize they were ignoring them, rather than (as they thought) using them. In massive part because players who I held immense respect for would have deeply damaged it by having discarded that all.

But oh well. Fair warning to them that I will be ranting post-game should be good enough.

[MastinSSK]

And yet all you've done in response to me scum-reading you is adhom my skill, appeal to my ego, and go about the same behavior that led me to scumread you in the first place.

Well your scumread on me was, is, and will continue to be crap, soyeah.

You ignore my reads with respect to the rest of the playerbase.

What

reads on the rest of the playerbase?

Oh, I vaguely remember that you've got some. Maybe an AP townread that I'm considering. Oh, and a Carbon townread...which I now agree with. But that's about it, since all you've done is shout how we're both scum.

It's like you only care about my reads on you and RBD.

Because that's all the reads you are actually presenting, perhaps.

[MastinSSK]

Alright, in addition to AP and Carbon Fiber.

PeregrineV (4): Kagura, AngryPidgeon,

]MastinSSK

, Mac,

Clyton

,

Hey mastin:
Bolded are the names of people that are below the null/null-scum line.

Okay. So you null/scumread Clyton. I'll grant you that.

But I explicitly asked you for why, and you gave nothing. So there's nothing to respect because there's nothing you've presented.

This p5 flash wagon over mastin or RBD is shit.

Cupcake and Yakuri would be the ones I'd most like to lynch. But that's less from a strong scmread and more frm a lack of townread.

I expect more from you :/

You've read PV, but that's unclear. Overall, you seem to be calling him town, but the closest I've gotten to finding a reason for why is "AP wants him dead, Rancid wants him dead, Mastin wants him dead, that means I don't want him dead".

Look at the interactions that lead Tammy to spam-post as hard as she did. She was the central figure in this game for a very long time. Why was that the case?

You townread Tammy, which, yep. I agree with.

Probably because I've yelled about it a lot. Sometimes me yelling about things works.

A townread on Katsuki. Which I actually listened to.

Wow. ns's vote on me looks terribad if mastin flips scum.

You might have a scumread on Red Gyarados (it's unclear), but it's apparently dependent on me flipping scum. Which of course I'm not going to fucking respect.

So are you going to disagree that saying that an entrance "100% cannot be town" is bad logic when that entrance has been used by the same player as town? Because that line of logic really shouldn't be that hard.

So you're actually holding back from using curse words with Mac, and I'm kinda assuming that means townread. Which, again, is nothing different from me.

:/
Why does nobody scum hunt the way I do

Oh, this is a townread of Stalin. Which, again, I'm listening to.

As I continue my way up your iso (I work in reverse-chronological order for this kind of thing), I'm sure I could nail things down better.

But basically: with a couple of exceptions (that I have explicitly already BEEN listening to!) you've not truly given any read to listen to. Either it's a read that I already believe, or it's a read that relies on me/Muffin being scum which I'm obviously not going to listen to.

And this is literally well over half way up your iso, and basically the best non-Mastin and non-Muffin content you give in there, because your content is so focused on us two that there's essentially nothing but us in there.

[MastinSSK]

Yeah I'm not going to apologize for spending most of my time in-thread trying to get scum lynched, especially when my other reads and a lot of backend are on-record in the neighborhood QT, and when I have made other fairly clear stances this game.

Especially in the context of a game where scum (you and RBD) are trying very hard to drown everything under the mist.

For a player concerned about the mist, again, your iso seems to have quite a lot of noise in it.

Because again. You've spent basically all that time lynching two players.

One of which I know 100% to be town.
The other which I'm 95% certain is town.

You don't owe an apology if you're scum. You owe no apology if zMuffinman were to somehow flip scum. But otherwise? Fuck yeah you do. There's only so many times you can use the excuse of "I had a bad game" before you realize you're doing something deeply, deeply wrong.

[MastinSSK]

Oi!
Rancid!

Getting myself lynched first, watching as the town lynches my strongest townread, and secretly hoping the town loses is

my

thing. Don't go stealing it!

[MastinSSK]

That depends on a couple of factors, Rancid.
First off is the mod themselves, and what they'll allow.
Second off is how closely you paraphrase.
Third off is how the whole ordeal is handled. Like, DesBro is correct that you can fake content in a hydra QT (or post real content through a filter), but how you deal with the whole ordeal largely contributes to the read.

And in this case, the third is the thing. The way you're handling the ordeal basically makes you being scum a near-impossibility, not because of the conversations, but how you decided to handle their reveal.

So overall, I'd say it's largely circumstantial. It's certainly a gray area, so this is neither an endorsement nor a rejection of it, just things to consider about it. (I actually think this might be an interesting conversation to have. I know that if brought up in MD, the overall opinion would be negative towards it, and that my opinion of it being circumstantial would be a bit of an oddity. Butyeah. I really, really think it depends.)

[MastinSSK]

(Speaking of QTs, I just now realized that I'm reusing my QT from last game with SSK, but that it's virtually empty, 'cause in both, we mainly communicated through site chat when both around, which we often alternated in being.)

[MastinSSK]

Ohshit.

You might as well be a true scum even if you flipped town by acting this way. My apologies to how you wanted to be ended.

Vote: Rancid Broderick Drake

DesBRO is probably town.

Clyton's scum.

[MastinSSK]

I've decided to stop viewing her posts through whatever the opposite of rose-tinted glasses is and try to see them as potentially town;

Well, there's jade-tinted glasses for cynicism, but I think a better gem for seeing scum would be obsidian-tinted glasses.

You know, being aggressively wrong is not a heinous crime, Mr. "MafiaSSK is confirmed town."

'Course not. I'm not scumreading DesBRO for it. Just snarking at him for it. (When I stop putting on the mask of me and start acting like the actual real life me, I'm actually a bit of a deadpan snarker.)

[MastinSSK]

Votecount 1-28

With 17 players alive, it will take 9 votes to lynch or nolynch.

PeregrineV (4): Kagura, AngryPidgeon, MastinSSK, Mac
MastinSSK (2): CupcakePanda, Yggdra Union
Just Sheep Us (2): orcinus_theoriginal, Red Gyarados
AngryPidgeon (1): Lord Business
Rancid Broderick Drake (6): CarbonFiber, Just Sheep Us, PeregrineV, The Fox and the Hound, Clyton, Rancid Broderick Drake,

Not Voting (2): Titan, Breakfast with Stalin

With 17 players alive, deadline is set for 18 days: (expired on 2014-04-18 00:01:39)

Btw, want to crossreference the names on this Rancid wagon with the equally-large wagon on me, and see what overlap there is.

[MastinSSK]

Did Stella/MastinSSK get her groove/vote back?

Read my damn claim again. It's really not hard to understand. My vote doesn't count on a lead wagon. Meaning that for all intensive purposes, my vote doesn't count. (Because lynches are by definition on the lead wagon.) My vote counts on wagons that aren't the lead wagon. Thus, because you're not the lead wagon, my vote counts.

Everyone in the neighborhood is telling me I'm wrong.

Well, that's because they're the terrible trio.

[MastinSSK]

I don't think rancid is scum.

Then you literally can't think I'm scum.

[MastinSSK]

Votecount 1-18

PeregrineV (1): Kagura
MastinSSK (6): CupcakePanda, Carbon Fiber, The Fox and the Hound, Yukari Yakumo, Just Sheep Us, AngryPidgeon
Just Sheep Us (2): orcinus_theoriginal, Red Gyarados
AngryPidgeon (3): Lord Business, Clyton, mastinSSK
The Fox and the Hound (1): Rancid Broderick Drake

Not Voting (4): Mac , PeregrineV, Titan, Breaskfast with Stalin

With 17 players alive, deadline is set for 18 days: (expired on 2014-04-18 00:01:39)

Votecount 1-28

PeregrineV (4): Kagura, AngryPidgeon, MastinSSK, Mac
MastinSSK (2): CupcakePanda, Yggdra Union
Just Sheep Us (2): orcinus_theoriginal, Red Gyarados
AngryPidgeon (1): Lord Business
Rancid Broderick Drake (6): CarbonFiber, Just Sheep Us, PeregrineV, The Fox and the Hound, Clyton, Rancid Broderick Drake,
Not Voting (2): Titan, Breakfast with Stalin
With 17 players alive, deadline is set for 18 days: (expired on 2014-04-18 00:01:39)

Carbon, Fox/Hound, and DesBro, yep. Though it should be noted that the VCs don't tell the whole story; Yygra has us both as scum yet hasn't moved from me, and PV had me as scum but never voted me. (As just two; there's probably more important people I'm forgetting.)

Soyeah, Fox/Hound does mildly look worse from this, especially if working on DesBRO being town, but it's not by much. (Especially if Clyton's scum.)

[MastinSSK]

What I view as a scumclaim more than the thing Sheep is hung up on is the way they reacted to CF's miller claim while not being a miller. Look at their posts directly after the claim. From here, they look really really terrible.

Problem:

As scum, why would they take the claim back? Knowing it'd bite them in the ass. Why do that, when they weren't getting lynched? Why do that? Why "scumclaim" when they can ride out deadline and be fine? Why not keep up the charade, ESPECIALLY given the people thinking two millers was possible? Why take it back, at the absolute worst time they could possibly choose to take it back?

It's not scumplay.

It's townplay.

Best example to come to my mind instantly would be (*groan*) House Party, and my mason fakeclaim with Majiffy. If I had been scum, there would have been no reason to let people suddenly doubt that. But because I was town, I couldn't in good conscience let myself do that. So I took it back, even though in hindsight I shouldn't have.

Same basic thing here.

[MastinSSK]

What's bad about being on both those wagons?

They're both on incredibly-strong town players? Who have been posting content consistently and are obvtown by play, and scumhunting consistently and raising a lot of good points?

[MastinSSK]

And bluntly, this is one of those times.

If the lead lynch candidate has reasonable doubt about being town, I might be willing to let them go to lynch.

Not here.

Here, I'd rather no-lynch than lynch zMuffinman.

[MastinSSK]

So I'm working under the assumption of an all-town Abyss right now, believe it or not. I'm trying to figure out what that means.

[MastinSSK]

Anyway, especially zmuffin, this is nothing like his scum game. Nor is it anything like nati's scum game.

And yet you don't trust them that this is nothing like my scumgame.

Seriously, the day I fool zMuffinman is the day I win a fucking scummie, if not officially, then in my mind.

[MastinSSK]

Counterpoint: The town play, in my mind, would be to take it back immediately, before it causes what it's causing right now. Instead, they threw doubt on F16's claim and continued scumreading him, then called him conftown like 10 pages later. I don't see town motivation in that delay.

Counter-counterpoint: yes, that would have been the correct play...as EITHER alignment. That he didn't is vaguely indicative of his town PM. Furthermore, as scum, why not continue casting doubt on F-16? Why not try to get F-16 mislynched? Why not never reveal the truth? If not backing out immediately, that would be the correct scum play.

...Instead, they took it back. Because they're town, who analyzed things, realized F-16 was legit, and after that made the reveal.

Not everyone sees everything the way you do :S

Thus, only vaguely points to scum rather than blatantly pointing to scum.

[MastinSSK]

look at dis mastin grasping for every single possible counterwagon to RBD

Actually, Rancid's the counterwagon to all of those wagons.

DesBRO, PV, and Fox/Hound all had votes on them weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeell before Rancid did.

[MastinSSK]

Mastin,

I

fooled zmuffin in the last game we played. ME.

So?
zMuffinman's not a scumhunting god. I don't give a damn about his ability to read others. I'm talking about his history of reading ME. Literally every game we've been in, he's had me as the correct alignment, scumreading the scuMastin and townreading MasTown2. To the point where I blindly nightkilled him when I landed scum in a game he was in. (He was mislynch bait, btw.)

You're ignoring occam's razor.

Sure, I could be scum, who masterfully manipulated the strings in a god-tiered scum game to magnificently managed to perfectly fool the players who have never been fooled by me. Who would have been down on their luck in having an extremely 'off' game. Yet was somehow caught by players that have barely played with me because...oh, I dunno, "My mislynches don't need to think me town". (Which is BS. I make damn sure my mislynches think I'm town. I won Paranoia because of it, in fact. I scumread MTD, hardcore attacking him out of the gate in lylo. I reversed that into an attack on shos. They ended up crossvoting.) Could be. Sure.

Or I could simply be town, correctly read by those who know me and being incorrectly read by those who, bluntly, don't know me worth a damn.

[MastinSSK]

ITT mastin argues semantics that have nothing to do with my actual point. again

Except that this is no semantics debate.

Rancid IS a damn counterwagon. More specifically, a CW to PV. PV was the lead wagon with five votes (plus me), and a sixth potentially on the way. Rancid had two or three votes at the time.

Now he has six.

[MastinSSK]

No, I streamlined it. The bits I cut out were addressed in the post anyway in spite of not being quoted. Your read on me seems to basically be "nullish-scum"; I'm pointing out that the scum bit can't be true.

I suppose you could say:
My role is such that I'm not someone who never is getting lynched this game.
But my play is such that I

shouldn't

ever be lynched this game.

[MastinSSK]

So I'm working under the assumption of an all-town Abyss right now, believe it or not. I'm trying to figure out what that means.

So I have to apologize. I got distracted, and never followed through on this. I'll see what I can do.

Mastin I really think you are falling victim to CFs too dumb to be scum routine.

Oh, him being dumb is precisely one of the reasons I have been scumreading him.

But I'm placing a fair amount of trust in the other players here who are vouching for him.

What posts of mine gave you this read?

General discrediting of me, I guess?

Is it too late for the world's flashiest quick lynch on lord business?

He's a sub-optimal lynch given that I'm figuring him out right now.

[MastinSSK]

I was just overall off that game.

And your pushes this game have been on my #1 townread and on me this game.

So I have reason to believe history has repeated itself. Rather, I would, if you recognized that you were having an off game here and now. If you don't, well, then, you're just being a bad player. (Seriously, one of the very first lessons I teach my students is that the first step to becoming a great player is realizing you're not as good as you think you are.)

when pressured she just asks a bunch of pointless questions that don't lead anywhere in order to create a bunch of confusion to derail the lynch off herself.

And I already addressed this, soyeah.

nothing in there is in any way, shape or form hard to fake or comes across like she's actually trying to make a real argument.

'Course the actions aren't hard to fake. It's the way they're done and the tone that is. (As for the argument, that again implies there was an attempt to fight when there was none.)

everyone else is bad for thinking about the possibility.

Well, yes. I'm humble enough that I fully admit to my screwups as a player. But this game, there hasn't been any, aside from one or two snarky comments when I was angry-snarking rather than deadpan-snarking. There's been anti-town fighting (the AP spat), but nothing about me even remotely similar to my scumgame. This is my townplay, through-and-through, to its very core. And every player who knows me has pointed that out.

she's getting into pointless debates that don't have anything to do with anything to distract ppl from their reads on her.

Name a scumgame I've done this in and I'll be impressed. It certainly wasn't Attack on Titan, because there I was manipulating, not pointlessly rambling.

the way she's strongarming lynches is the exact same as in AOT too.

Right, because I'm the one who's strongarming the lynch through right now in arrogance rather than attempting to work with others.

she's just blatantly ignoring all the town things CF did all game, despite the fact that SHE KNOWS F-16 CAN'T FAKE THIS LEVEL OF TRANSPARENCY AS SCUM AFTER PLAYING SCUM WITH HER.

Again, I addressed this. You ignored it. There is no transparency in-thread. There's a train of thought that is town that can be followed...but it is convoluted off of just the in-thread posting. It takes squinting really hard and using your creative juices to see. You're biased because you have the neighborhood to see it whereas I do not. I'm sure I'd agree with you if I could actually see what you do. That CF couldn't fake the transparency that he'd surely have. But since I don't, I haven't. Really not that hard to understand.

Really. Both ffery and even Tammy haven't been instantly townreading F-16. Know why? Because he hasn't been as transparent as you and he have claimed...in-thread. I'm sure that if ffery or Tammy had access, like me, they'd instantly have agreed. But since they don't, they haven't. And like me, they ultimately have figured out he's town. But it's really not as clear as you're saying it is.

I caught her in AOT bc he was pushing Kagami and doing THE EXACT SAME THING (for context, she almost outright broke the game and even if it didn't affect anything in the end it was the most blindingly bright town thing I've seen ever) and I finally had enough and called bullshit on it and I WAS RIGHT

For someone claiming that they're not reading me off of shitty tells.
This sure sounds like your read on me is based off of a shitty tell.

Yes, I pushed Kagami as scum. Yes, you called me scum for it and I was scum. (Btw, this proves your backing-down point is BS since I never backed down from Kagami. Kagami never got onto the positive side of null, and the only reason I shifted focus from Kagami was because I was clearing a path for my scumbuddies to live via lynching Bert.) Correlation does not imply causation. I pushed Kagami because I felt like pushing Kagami. It's that simple.

then ignored fox's reach out

My read on fox is currently null. Nullscum overall via POE, but they're far from having been ignored.

in xenosaga I was just off overall and I never really got into the game. most of my reads sucked ass until I took a step back and thought about things some more and even I was still out of it

And the reason you think your reads aren't sucking ass now is...
(You haven't taken that step back to think things through. You're playing emotionally. Not rationally.)

[MastinSSK]

On the other hand, if you get lynched, and Pie, BRO, Desp, and I all have our reads validated, it is going to be SO much harder for Mastin to avoid us all tunneling him then because for one, your scumflip would basically confirm people as town, and you would be down a member.

Oh, I am going to have fun tomorrow if Rancid gets lynched.

I'll try to keep it at snark rather than rant. But whatever snark you're seeing from me now, you can bet your ass it's going to be ten times worse after you made posts like this today.

I already addressed the whole "why are good players reading me as town" thing. For one, none of me, Pie, BRO, Desp, or Ceph/DV, or Tammy? all of who are good players are reading you as town.

And of them, a grand total of one (Tammy) has any credibility on reading me...and she's not scumreading me; she's "?"-reading me.

You're flagrantly ignoring game narrative and defining wagon as "having votes," which is a pretty meaningless definition.

As mentioned, that was the snarking. More seriously, Rancid

is

the counterwagon to PeregrineV, because the wagon on PV was there first, and for much longer.

p5 was also a counter wagon to YOU, and there has been a decent consensus among the group that wagoned you that you and RBD are scum together so...

Actually, PV was a counterwagon to Carbon.
Carbon Fiber was my counterwagon, sure, yeah. But then the PV wagon replaced the Carbon wagon.

You claimed a shittier version of a standard tree stump, and your plays been scummy as.

Modified. Stronger in some ways, weaker than others. And, yes. My role is stronger in some ways than a normal tree stump. Among them being that I count as being alive rather than dead, and that I can place a vote even if the vote doesn't lynch, and that if the town trusts me, I gain the ability to vote at 9 players alive. Weaker in that I can get lynched.

As for my play, keep telling yourself that.

Saying things over and over again won't make people believe them.

(Let's ignore the irony in you saying my play is scummy for a bit.) As I recall, you started telling me this in House Party.

[MastinSSK]

A PV is a very easy mislynch opportunity.

I like how everyone calls PV an easy mislynch yet isn't bothering to try and read his alignment. (Oh, I'm sure they are. I mean showing it.)

I'm willing to sacrifice RBD and see if my reads are correct. If he's town, I'm going to look into JSU and CF. If he's truly scum, I will look at Mastin and AP.

Still thinking this could be scum, by the way.

[MastinSSK]

Pedit: holy shit at least when I have an ego, I do it in a way that's fun. You're so conceited its not even funny.

Thus my snarking at him.

It takes a really special kind of player to shut down my ability to show emotions (be them light-hearted or ragey) and leave me in my natural monotonous sharpish-tongue state.

oh god maybe BroDesp are scum.

Oh, it's possible.

Leaning against it, though. At the very least, we should focus elsewhere.

[MastinSSK]

You're being hyper-technical while missing the point.

Right. Because I'm the one who's continuously stretching the facts of the game to suit my needs rather than showing things as they were.

I'm pretty sure I say this to you every game at this point.

Well, I suppose saying it with a ~1/5 accuracy is justification enough to keep doing it.

You know what a normal tree stump gets to do?

Declare themselves a treestump at their point of choosing.
Treestumps are typically an active ability, not passive.
(THIS is me getting hyper-technical.)

[MastinSSK]

I have never seen someone be so arrogant about being so wrong. It's hilarious

Indeed it is, though I'm sure I could give him a run for his money.

...He'd still win.

The way that the gamestate has devolved to this point has essentially has created a game state that is not good for anyone, that is not fun for anyone, that is not the way that any of us enjoy playing mafia.

I wouldn't say that. Muffin and I are both having a lot of fun, laughing at F-16 with a side of pie.

...Not in the way you're supposed to in a mafia game, though.

[MastinSSK]

(It is rather funny how hypocritical F-16 can be while being blinded to it, though.
Basically every single issue he has with the play of Rancid and myself are things he himself has done.)

[MastinSSK]

I think scum are much more likely to play according to past town meta (unless they don't like scum/are very transparent), while a town player's play is likely to be evolving such that their townplay

will

change.

You realize you argued earlier in the game that this game resembling your past townplay and not your scumplay made you town, right?

(Nullscum moves to weakscum.)

Is this assuming BRO is town here?

In that spot specifically, probably not, but it's also not assuming the opposite. They're a nulltown read right now overall.

[MastinSSK]

They are not scum.
They are not scum.
They are not scum.

DesBRO, Fox/Hound, or both?
Pedits make it hard to tell.

Can we lynch ap or desbro?

AP is a mehread. You can try, but you'll fail, and I'm not going to support it. (Won't fight it, though.) DesBRO is a "go ahead" read; I'm not convinced they'll flip scum, but eh, it's possible.

[MastinSSK]

2 The Fox and the Hound (cephrir and DV)
4 orcinus_theoriginal
9 AngryPidgeon 9 ElementalHawk (Prohawk+3dicerolling)
11 Lord Business
12 Just Sheep Us (Broseidon and Desperado)
15 PeregrineV
16 Clyton

At this point, this is my potential lynchlist. You've had commentary on all of 'em, but feel free to ask again.

[MastinSSK]

Is this what you're referring to Mastin?

No, I'm referring to the post that some players like Mac megatownned you for, where there were links and all that. The post I called nullscum.

[MastinSSK]

If anyone reads a single one of my posts this game, make it this one.

Muffin. There is a chance you are town. You were in 169. Does this not look exactly, and I mean EXACTLY like what happened to me in that game.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... &start=400

I am not hard to win arguments against. Because I very often can't back up my actions. My stances sometimes don't make sense, and even when they do, I hardly know why I have the opinions I do.

If you really think it looks more like my tunnel on bulbafenix in 165, I can't help you. Because it doesn't. I actually won that argument because I got to make up nice-sounding reasons.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... &start=200

I can't make those links work properly. But it really is worth bothering to look at them.

All that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to stand by and do nothing. It's seeming as though the people who normally prevent me from being a free mislynch are not interested. This bothers me, but whatever. Scum appear to have figured this out. Without them I'm little better than 2008 consistent day 1 lynch cephrir. Maybe it's not the people I think it is, but they will be on this wagon. That's not a threat, it's a promise.

I feel like the gang up on me here feels exactly like 169, and I think the people I'm fighting with are going to turn out to be scum again. Please actually think about this and make this the one time you all don't completely ignore someone posthumously if I am indeed lynched today. That is all.

"This is exactly what happened to me when I was town in this game," basically.

[MastinSSK]

Oh that was Ceph.

Meh. I don't really differentiate hydra heads that much. Don't really care to.

[MastinSSK]

4 orcinus_theoriginal
9 AngryPidgeon 9 ElementalHawk (Prohawk+3dicerolling)
11 Lord Business
12 Just Sheep Us (Broseidon and Desperado)
15 PeregrineV
16 Clyton

At this point, this is my potential lynchlist. You've had commentary on all of 'em, but feel free to ask again.

Note the removal of Fox/Hound. That's not on me; I'm still nullscumming them. But I'm willing to trust the others who have a more positive read, there, 'specially since I can kinda see it now.

So any of the six I see as possible scum.

[MastinSSK]

Rather, four of the six are extremely likely to be scum. I just can't tell which.

[MastinSSK]

Wait, what?

Self-explanatory. I can see you as being town, even though your posting invokes a cocked eyebrow tilted head hand on chin HMMMM to it, which overall is nullish, perhaps with a lean towards scum but not necessarily; the path to being town isn't nonexistent. So with others advocating it--others I trust--then I'm willing to buy it.

[MastinSSK]

Is there anywhere I should shift my vote that's not fucking bleeding town in an effort to save those that are bleeding town?

Sadly not. We've been trying to figure that out, but no such luck.

[MastinSSK]

I think both BRO and Desp are really, really incredibly town.

Incredibly town would be a stretch.
Could be town is not, though.

Which is one reason I hesitate to support the wagon, there.

[MastinSSK]

K so I'm on my phone for the foreseeable future and I'm struggling to read posts as they come so ya. I'm here but only sort of.

Apparently the wind has blown onto DesBRO.

This seems sub-optimal, but it's more optimal than Rancid I guess.

VOTE: Just Sheep Us.
Since I guess I should support the CW to Rancid even if I think that it's not a great one.

[MastinSSK]

Though this of course raises the slight concern that the DesBRO wagon goes through, is town, and F-16 uses it to launch a crusade against Rancid/myself.

[MastinSSK]

Pedit: wind blown? He was scum in my game!!

What's your reasoning for not being on the DesBRO wagon, AP?

[MastinSSK]

Votecount 1-30

With 17 players alive, it will take 9 votes to lynch or nolynch.

PeregrineV (5): Kagura, AngryPidgeon, MastinSSK, Mac, Rancid Broderick Drake
MastinSSK (1): CupcakePanda
Just Sheep Us (3): orcinus_theoriginal, Red Gyarados, Breakfast With Stalin
AngryPidgeon (1): Lord Business
Rancid Broderick Drake (6): CarbonFiber, Just Sheep Us, PeregrineV, The Fox and the Hound, Yggdra Union, Clyton

Not Voting (1)

With 17 players alive, deadline is set for 18 days: (expired on 2014-04-18 00:01:39)

Rancid, Kagura, and technically-me have switched to DesBRO. That's five officially on him. Another on the wagon switching would be six. (AP.) I'd hope Mac could switch, but looks like not. But this is still viable for those who're townreading Rancid and/or want to grab at towncred.

[MastinSSK]

Which changes basically nothing?

True, but he gains conviction that he really has no need for.

At least PV to me actually has a significant chance of flipping scum. DesBRO is just a shot in the dark, which I'm supporting since it seems to be the only non-Rancid option available.

[MastinSSK]

unvote

What's going on?

Well, what's going on is that if he's town, he thinks he's getting flashwagoned by scum in his blind arrogance.
If he's scum, he's having a panic attack that he got flashwagoned off of literally nothing.

[MastinSSK]

VOTE: PeregrineV.

[MastinSSK]

and you can be happy for derailing a scum lynch even after a bunch of people put so much effort into making it happen just like you derailed the muffin lynch in Xenosaga.

Muffin was town in Xenosaga.
And Xenogears, too.
Dunno 'bout first Xeno game, but other two was town.

Also, effort into making a lynch happen doesn't mean the target will flip scum. Just so you know.

[MastinSSK]

WHY THE FUCK IS NO ONE SEEING THE SHIT MASTIN IS PULLING IN THIS GAME

...Because what you're quoting as supposedly being shit is...absolutely nothing, which makes your insistence of it being shit, well...be shitty.

[MastinSSK]

I'll focus on the parts I disagree with. The parts I'm not quoting I'm considering, but will point out these to see F-16's response to it.

PV shows a lot of VI behavior that can be considered scummy by town.

...Except I know he's no VI, so if he's showing VI behavior, it's likely from scum.

Nearly everyone has some sort of concerns about PV basically making him the default lynch for the day.

Which doesn't give anything about his alignment, 'specially if resistance to his lynch forms. (It has.)

He's made no less than 86 posts, more than quite a few other players.

Early activity from PV I actually consider a minor scumtell.

His questioning of MastinSSK in Post 1780 picks up on a lot of things that are vague and unexplained.

AKA, actual discrediting that is on an element of my play he has seen in many games of mine. You said it yourself: regardless of my affiliation, I have a tendency to be vague, and PV's bringing it up was therefore not town, since he is well familiar with it.

Him accurately pointing out that the usefulness of my argument is limited shows a very keen grasp of the gamestate. My explanation for town-DV came at a point when the wagon was dying a little but I posted it anyways because I was working on it for a while, but PV picked up on the timing of it to use it for further analysis. His Post 1800 is an absolute classic. Did you see how well he tracked down my read on Cupcake to show where I was making leaps and explained nothing? It is because of the discussions in this neighborhood that refined my Cupcake read. I didn't have a perfect trajectory for it in thread.

If a town-PV can pick up on it and analyze it, why can't a scum-PV pick up on it and cast suspicion on it?

As you can tell by this being fairly short, you raise good points to consider. And they are being considered.

[MastinSSK]

Vore: orcinus

Sure.
VOTE: orcinus.

[MastinSSK]

mastin's participation and constant emotional manipulation/borderline abuse towards things she knows make me tick and AP being strangely disconnected from me haven't helped, either.

Well, I'm not scum and Rancid's not either, so your main reason for being ticked off would be gone by recalibrating your scumdar. Rancid's question to F-16 applies for me to you, in that if we were both town...what then, Bro?

[MastinSSK]

4 orcinus_theoriginal
9 AngryPidgeon 9 ElementalHawk (Prohawk+3dicerolling)
11 Lord Business
15 PeregrineV
16 Clyton

At this point, this is my potential lynchlist. You've had commentary on all of 'em, but feel free to ask again.

Note the removal of Fox/Hound. That's not on me; I'm still nullscumming them. But I'm willing to trust the others who have a more positive read, there, 'specially since I can kinda see it now.

So any of the six I see as possible scum.

Note the removal of DesBRO. For the emotional meltdown.

I really do think the scumteam's in here.

[MastinSSK]

bc everything BRO said is true.

Oh, no doubt.

Just pointing out that BRO's entire reason for stressing out is entirely dependent on something that's completely wrong. I mean, if he didn't think Rancid and myself were scum...what would that leave him at? It's a serious question, not a jab.

It kinda was my advice, though. He's wrong, but stressing out about it. If he started being right, the stress might not go away, but it'd be immensely relieved.

[MastinSSK]

MASTIN IGNORING THAT WALL IS NOT A FUCKING TOWN RESPONSE

I take my time to respond, than you.

town actually cares about other townies.

Thus my defense of Rancid.

[MastinSSK]

this has fucking become personal.

Not on my end. Everything I've said is true. BRO's stressing out because he's panicked that obvscum are getting away.
Said obvscum are actually town.

The entirety of your reason for wanting me dead is on an imagined slate.

[MastinSSK]

yet you still ignored the entire fucking wall

Oh, you meant BRO's wall.

Bluntly, I didn't read it all. I skimmed. I saw him having a meltdown for having been suddenly scumread. That's the part of the meltdown that would remain even if he changed his mindset, though he's not getting lynched anymore meaning even then he's going to be less stressed.
I also saw the remaining being ranting about how Rancid and I are obvscum and manipulating everyone and that he's right and getting lynched again in spite of that, again.

If I missed something that doesn't fit into one of those two categories, let me know. Because the first is no longer relevant, and the second I addressed by simply pointing out him changing his erroneous read would fix. 'Cause he's wrong. I know that sounds bad to say to someone having an emotional breakdown, that bluntly, they're wrong. But he is, soyeah. It needed to be said.

[MastinSSK]

/leaving.

Probably won't be around at deadline. Sorry.

[MastinSSK]

SSK head will be around here until deadline FWIW.

I don't want to lynch AP after that claim unless we have no other choice.

[MastinSSK]

If you vote orcinus today, I will listen to you tomorrow.

For the record.
Again.

If I was scum, well, first off, I wouldn't stoop to such a low tactic in the first place, but assuming I somehow thought it morally ethical a tactic to have pulled, I'd at least be sympathetic to BROseidon, like I kinda was in Anything Goes that AFB had the scumteam nailed but got mislynched and ignored.

Here, I have no such sympathies. Now if his misread were something that was plausibly on my end, sure, yeah, I might also feel bad. But everyone who actually knows me and knows Rancid is calling us both town. So that means that whatever problem there is, it's not on my end.

It's on his. And I've been willing to work with him. But he's created his own demons where there are none. I suppose on a technical basis I sympathize because I have my own mental health issues and have been in similar situations, but I don't empathize with him when he's the one making the misread. He's melting down over something that simply doesn't exist.

neighborize me tonight please. i dont actually know what faction or whatever i am though.

This might be a scumclaim. Need to check the front page, though.

[MastinSSK]

Oh.
AP's either a derp (town) or lying (scum).

Scum, town, doesn't matter. The name of your game is in your role PM.

Oh, and btw,
VOTE: Clyton,
Even though my own vote doesn't really count.

[MastinSSK]

Btw, orc could still be scum, but if his role is real (it probably is), then there's probably a different way he needs to die other than via lynch.
'Cause lynching a town player before lynching him would really, really suck.

[MastinSSK]

4 orcinus_theoriginal
9 AngryPidgeon 9 ElementalHawk (Prohawk+3dicerolling)
11 Lord Business
15 PeregrineV
16 Clyton

At this point, this is my potential lynchlist. You've had commentary on all of 'em, but feel free to ask again.

Note the removal of Fox/Hound. That's not on me; I'm still nullscumming them. But I'm willing to trust the others who have a more positive read, there, 'specially since I can kinda see it now.

So any of the six I see as possible scum.

Note the removal of DesBRO. For the emotional meltdown.

I really do think the scumteam's in here.

I realize this quote is getting a bit too nested, but I really want to emphasize this.
I feel like the scumteam is in there. Heavily feel like it. That within orc, AP, LB, PV, and Clyton, we have all four scum.

Because I'm not seeing the scum outside there. (Okay. So there's one or two players I see, but I'm trusting the townreads of others.)

[MastinSSK]

And I really am leaving soon, and won't be back until after the deadline. My vote's not really needed, but I feel like I've spoken my piece.

[MastinSSK]

So I'm back on page 130 officially. I've read the entire game since then, but it was at night so there's some stuff I need to comment on. However, I'll cut to the chase.

Kagura, Rancid, DesBRO, and Mac are the players that are townreads I'm willing to risk the game off of. Don't care what anyone else says on them. They're all town.

Titan, Red Gyarados, and Katsuki are strong, mid, and weak (respectively) strong-townreads. ("Waitwhat, that makes no sense." Well, Titan's almost in the conftown pile, but while I have them at that strength, I'm not quite willing to risk the game on them being town. Thus, strong-strong town. Red Gyarados has a LOT going for them making them town, but there's a very slight shadow of a doubt which prevents them from being highest tier, yet alone, game-risking. I'm considering promoting them, but I want notscience posting more and Brian Skies to still be around. And Katsuki is, well...Katsuki. So while a townread, is...well, Katsuki.)

Before the fight began, I had Stalin in that weak strong-townread pile. Now, I'm actually concerned about them, especially considering Rancid's vote on them. (You say trolling, I don't share that same belief.) They're in the same spot as Yygra, approximately, readswise though.

That's all off of me.

There are more players that are in the town pile, though.

Carbon Fiber:

Bluntly, I keep on thinking about this. But I'm not seeing the townness. I AM willing to trust other peoples' reads of his townness, especially those in the QT. (I don't think he would be able to successfully manipulate them all.) But that's the problem. There's nothing off of his in-thread posting that makes him town; it's all based off of the QT, because the train of thought in-thread is obscured. However, between his role (no, not the role--how it was used and claimed) and me being able to squint my eyes, I can buy him being town.

Yygdra Union:

I don't remember why I townread them and why others did, either. I trust they're town, because there were reasons and I simply didn't remember them. But it's not a strong trust.

Fox/Hound:

A null-read. I can't read them one way or the other, but while I reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally don't think the reasons that they were townread were valid, I CAN see the townness in them and think they might be town anyway, but it's a really tough call.

Leaving?

Orcinus. (Heck no, he gets no towncred for that claim. It's null.)
AP. (I'll need him sorted.)
and Lord Business as the regular pile. (It's a Cabd game. LB's not necessarily town even though he just flipped it.)
And PV and Clyton in the scumread pile.

So I told myself last night,
"I should probably sort those people."

And I might put effort into that later.
But know what else I realized?
When it comes to AP and Orcinus in particular (with a side of Fox/Hound)?
...I'm a fucking bulletproof, I don't need to bother giving a damn sorting them right now. I'll figure it out on a future day. With extra info from extra days, both roles-wise and play-wise, I'll put in that extra effort, but I don't need it now.

What I do need is to focus on getting actual fucking scumbags lynched. Clyton. PeregrineV. Doesn't matter which, but both dead by my charismatic hand. Then I work out the rest.
'Cause fuck you all, I am a reincarnated god.

VOTE: PeregrineV.

[MastinSSK]

Easily could have voted Clyton, btw.

I see. A desperation attempt on me when the deadline is drawing near? I am sorely disappointed.

this kinda strikes me as an off reaction somehow. Like it's a crack in the emotionless facade.

One of the reasons Clyton evolved into a proper scumread.

Oh I'm not hiding it. This is a crack. In these kind of situations, I readjust my approach. I mean, what am I to do against full of people acting on emotion? Logic will not help here unless they regain their senses.

This also doesn't feel right. It feels like he's being called out on having slipped out, and is now working damage control.

I feel Cabd made the roles to augment another person's similar roles. I forgot who it was, but your rolecop ability and another person's rolecop ability augmented each other. I think these are intentional. The problem is, it is not truly indicative of alignment, so like you said, it would be both town roles or a town role + scum role.

This also doesn't feel like an attempt to figure things out and analyze the roles.

His orcinus defense also didn't make much sense. All the while, he wasn't panicking, though.

Holy shit with all this emotional clusterfuck going around, I'm just gonna stop and give this game a rest until the next day. I applaud the people who are still sane and going through this according to their win condition.

Vote: orcinus_theoriginal

Orcinus, I don't know if your claim is true or not. I do not even know if it is town-aligned or not. But your intentions were made clear that regardless of who is lynched, you will intervene. Now, I have a request. Choose me as one of the participants, and preferably Mastin as the other. I will personally deal with her and expose her for the emotional rift-raft she is and outline every inconsistency and scumtells I picked up from the previous 30 pages from her (and the entire game anyways) while outlining my personal defense (something I already explained in some of the posts, not sure how some of them miss that but if they are truly town, they avoided it and went on the basis of an inherent scum action).

And here, he suddenly shows a burst of emotion, and basically does something that isn't logical at all. Defending orc, but then voting him like this, with no (gaaaah) trajectory. The read on me comes out of nowhere, too. Clyton's read on me seems highly, well, desperate, defensive, and quite frankly, omgusy. Because there's nothing that hints this direction at all. The read is essentially one that is highly convenient (given the scumreads on me) and valuable to him (given the lack of stronger scumreads on him).

i think i'll be putting up PV or LB up, alongside fery

we'll be doing either a lurker lynch or a no lynch

This is also something that looks bad from orc.

[MastinSSK]

I still think RBD is town because of the frustration they showed and the hope they gave up on this game, something that I have saw in past games I played in. Never once did I see a scum turned out from such a scenario.

And yet my nearly-identical behavior which came before theirs was ignored, not to mention, you'd be ignoring their read on me.

But then, everything went downhill after she acknowledged that she was acting based on emotions just recently.

Admitting to emotions from Rancid was a towntell for you, yet you're using it as a scumtell on me.

The reason I wanted orcinus to gladiate me and Mastin is because if it is 1v1, I can purely focus on her and drown out the noise around me (people can't even talk anyways, so that's good). Then I can finally lay out my case.

Oh, and every player defending me wouldn't be able to voice said defense.

JOBS MOTHERFUCKERS DO YOU HAVE THEM?

On the weekend. During the weekday, though, I have college-for-future-job, and, uh...well. I've put so much time into this game that I'm kinda...kinda failing this quarter. (Which should be the final quarter.) So yesbutno.

5th quote: Self-explanatory based on my post. My suspicion fell on Mastin because of how she came up with the 4 mafia/13 town, something that should've been common knowledge if everyone read it in the beginning, but turned out to be Mastin not reading it at all. However, withheld from that post, you never know if Mastin actually did read it in the beginning and withheld that, using the ruse of not reading the beginning post to get herself out of that suspicion I have on her.

This also makes no sense, since basically, there's no scum motive to lie about knowledge. The best I'd get from pulling such a move would be a faked townslip that would be exactly that--faked, and transparently so. Additionally, reading any of my scumgames (or MD theory for that matter) will show that as scum, I hold the philosophy that the truth is the most powerful weapon a scum player possesses. Lying removes it instantly.

7th quote: Mastin became an in-between. This is due to recent developments, aka you and CF against RBD and Mastin. I considered your side of the case and RBD's/Mastin's side, and I finally did a nullread on Mustin (on my first read, I didn't nullread anyone).

This makes no sense, because it doesn't really follow the debate at all.

8th quote: I said it in 3286; that's my reasoning at the moment. I may add more as I analyze Mastin's posts in this game thus far.

You're saying you need to analyze my posts in the game. Yet you're scumreading me.

From a player relying on logic, this is as close as a scumclaim as you can get.

You either analyzed them already and concluded scum or you haven't analyzed them and have that doubt. There's no alternatives from a town player with your self-admitted style of play.

I'll have some faith in the people I trust. Stalin, what will you do? You clearly don't want to lynch RBD cause you think he's town. Who's the alternative then? I don't see PV being scummy; rather, there is a lack of townreads on him.

Clyton, where did this trust come from?

There's also this.
(Also, I'm obviously slightly sheeping DesBRO, since they basically brought up my reasoning before I could vocalize it.)

That is fine. If you are town, then my advice is that you continue to suspect me due to the fact that I cannot be understood from your perspective. Use the foundation you have built (your trust on CF for instance, and extending to that, his read on me). In this case, do not think from your perspective, but other people perspectives (but mines, because you are not able to understand my perspective).

I'll love it if one of his reasonings for me being scum is invoking the trust of others, since he's attempting to do it here. (The difference being he's specifically manipulating F-16 who happens to have an opinion that's convenient for Clyton, whereas zMuffinman can't be manipulated by me and I wouldn't even bother trying.)

[MastinSSK]

This trust came from the fact that we were in similar situations. You were in a dilemma like I was. RBD was town, but I would rather sacrifice him for the sake of avoiding a no lynch. But I didn't find PV (where he was the alternative wagon) to be scummy based on my scum/town/nullread on him (or lack thereof). I was asking you for alternatives.

This is also bullshit. It makes no sense.

Look at any fucking game I've played with Mastin, ever. I figure out Mastin's alignment within a few posts every time. You know this, you've seen it, in the same games BRO was in. AoT? Took me a small number of posts to figure out Mastin was scum and I stuck to that vote for the entire three days it took to lynch her. Too Many Heads? I had her figured out within the first couple posts after she replaced in and stuck with that read for the rest of the game. In games you haven't been in, it's the same deal. The most recent Xeno game? I had Mastin figured out from her opening posts and "buddied" her the rest of the game because of it. Mastin is someone I have an amazingly easy time reading, I do not think I'm shooting in the dark with this, and I do think she is town here.

What's worse is you have a heavy meta player (F16) who really has no excuse not to know this about me/mastin if he's read ANY games me/mastin have played together. And he thinks DespBro has a point here. And he thinks we're both scum with AP because.... ??????????????????????? Scum theatre? ??????????? ??????????????

If my posts seem like they're injected with vitriol here, it's because I loathe that sort of playstyle. It's why (prior to the miller counter-claim) I told Nati I'm no longer playing the game - I cannot deal with players who play like that. It's fucking enraging because not only are they playing like that, they have the sheer fucking arrogance of thinking they're right about something I know to be 100% wrong. Like I generally have confidence in my reads, but at no point do I ever say something like F16 said recently ("I've figured out the game earlier than others"). Holy fucking shit that post. I could honestly not believe how fucking arrogant someone so fucking wrong could be.

By the way, anyone thinking Rancid's death after this is coincidental is an idiot or scum.

That's a rather absurd simplification of what I said. I said I found all three of you, Mastin, and AP scummy and I wouldn't discount you being in a team. If you are scum, you can continue lying about it but if you are town, realize that you misinterpreted what I am saying.

JANITORED no less. Rancid was JANITORED. And it was comments like this that explain that. 'Cause guess what? It's the worst fucking thing for the town Rancid's alignment regardless. Rancid's scum, the info is kept from us. Rancid's town, his town/scumreads cannot be validated, among them the vital (VITAL) townread on me. (Btw, that's why you can tell that, alignment regardless, I had nothing to do with the janitor/kill on Rancid. Him flipping town would clear me.)

Tammy knows this from Anything Goes where she was scum with Mastin and [masting] identified who she was going to mislynch. It didn't matter to Mastin that Angry Frat BROS pegged the entire scumteam because the rest of the town weren't going to listen to them.

I identified threats, and identified how players would be read. Correctly. You saw it in AoT as well. With near-perfect accuracy, I identified players' roles in the game, be it mislynch or nightkill.

So how would I have made a miscalculation this game, F-16, of this magnitude? Where all my supposed mislynches...aren't getting mislynched, not even close, and are scumreading me? In Anything Goes, there was a grand total of two players I marked for mislynching that scumread me. (Desp and AFB.) All my other mislynch targets didn't. This game, my "mislynch targets" have been Tammy, you, Fox/Hound, DesBRO, PV, and recently Clyton. And I'm null to scum to all of them.

Your logic, simply put, doesn't hold up. Because you're writing onto me my scumplay when it doesn't exist.

Also, the "ignore Muffin" advice was good so I am going to do that from now.

Because his read on me is inconvenient to your narrative.

[MastinSSK]

like actually when has POE ever worked on anyone ever

When said player is a bulletproof and can afford to use the tactic.

Also, kinda sorta not buying AP's apathy, 'specially given his claimed role, but eh. PV and Clyton first.

Btw, worth mentioning: while I can imagine Stalin as scum, I don't think the governor would be putting a scumbuddy in, not even against a lurker. So not scumbuddies together, but either could be scum. Lean towards yes for orc and no for ffery, but easily could both be town. (Eh, we'll figure it out later.)

(Btw, Beli's case on me is shit since it's basically, "Mastin wouldn't do that", when

I made an MD thread that specifically pointed out that I do that

.)

My strongest townreads, in no particular order* are {Fox/Hound, CF, RBD, Titan, borkcho}

And again, there's a dissonance via insisting RBD is town yet not taking their read on me into consideration.

Rancid Broderick Drake, ???, was Killed Night 1

Mac, who was Ricardo Soldato, Town Paranoid Bodyguard*, was Killed Night 1

*A Paranoid Bodyguard also acts as a modified rolestop

Again. Rancid's the main scum nightkill. No fucking way is him being janitored anything but design. His townflip would have been immensely useful, and their presence in the game unflipped was simply too strong. Janitoring them is the perfect scum tactic.

Mac's a tough call, though. It could be a scum double-kill ability. Mac might have protected town who was killed by town. Or the paranoid bodyguard bit acting as a modified rolestop somehow got triggered. Could be anything, but is most certainly not the main scum kill.

VOTE: mastinSSK

No fucking way would I kill Rancid.
Let's say that somehow I was scum and Rancid horribly misread me and I wanted to kill him while he still somehow misread me. Okay, then. I kill him normally. No fucking way I janitor him, since that'd create doubt on his alignment and thus, increase my chance of getting lynched.

There is no way scum killed RBD even if he is town considering their play D1.

No fucking way scum

wouldn't

kill RBD given his play on D1. His role was a threat. His play even moreso.

That was a damn scum kill, and if you weren't blinded by your arrogance, you'd see it.

Beli and I talked about it during the cage match and overnight. We both think that scum-orci, if he had to use the gladiate to avoid lynch, probably would have set it up differently than spending a lurker who might be a viable mislynch later in the game.

Okay, then. Scenario. Orc's scum. He gets lynched and self-governs. He puts two obvtown players in.

...What happens to Orc on D2?
He gets fucking speedlynched, that's what.

There's no way he could have played that other than as he did as scum. He HAD to put a mislynch in. What I think makes him scum is that a town-him would put TWO "mislynches" in rather than just one.

[MastinSSK]

AP worries me, but I don't really have anything solid to go on there. And his vote on me during the governor/gladiate thing pinged but he did indicate paranoia once or twice during day 1 and LB

did

come off incredibly town during that.

Meh. If I had another role, I'd be more inclined to sort him now. Since I can't die, I'm going to put that off for a while. He IS nullscum to me overall, but I'm not going to get into a debate with him when we have Clyton and PV around, still.

Beli still scumreads Mastin, and depending on how today goes I could see us putting our vote there today.

Yet I do not understand your attack on me for being honest in regards to being frustrated with the state of the majority near the end of Day 1.

Because it comes across as being scum realizing they showed a weakness and now need a way to have covered it up.

Especially since this is how your scumread on me evolved.

My scumread on you came from painstakingly doing analysis, and showing it in-thread, and reanalyzing everything and showing my thoughts. It had a clear progression. It was in the thread, laid out. Yours is hidden behind the shadows, broken and jarred.

Writing a defense is so much easier than writing an offense.

Especially for scum. Because town players don't give a damn about looking good, but scum players do. (I wish you were a frequent on MS.net so that this post could be a scumtell from you, but alas. It could be legitimate culture clash.)

Potshot guess at a scumteam would be Clyton, PV, orc, and AP, but eh.

[MastinSSK]

Spoiler: Clyton wall

I cannot assume the credibility of anyone's reads, and I ask that others would do the same with mines.

For someone claiming to not assume the credibility of anyone's reads...you sure have asked for a lot of players to trust in the credibility of townreads on you.

I ask you refer to me such posts that indicates such behaviour.

Let's see. The massive wall war with AP. The fact that I fullclaimed, giving up on fighting to get myself nightkilled. My snarking towards players like DesBRO and F-16. The list goes on and on. It was in my iso long before it was in Rancid's. You coulda made a better case for Rancid copying me than you could for me being different from his.

To be fair, you did not have much of a defense during the time I issued such a suggestion to orc.

Bullfuckingshit. Both Kagura and Rancid have been insisting I'm town (WITH REASONS!) for most of the fucking game.

You are attacking me on a ground where it is not applicable to the game at hand.

And now you know the crux of what I've been saying about the scumreads on me all fucking game.

And what's wrong with analyzing and scumreading at the same time?

Because

you offered to enter into a fucking 1v1 against me

. If you analyzed things and found them to be scum, sure. Battle. If you were analyzing things and were beginning to scumread me, you'd point it out but not risk it. Because know what a critical piece of logical, analytical play is? CAUTION. Which you have displayed the entire game. You've shown a lack of commitment to reads, being willing to reconsider them. Meaning that if you hadn't done your analysis? You'd have taken that stance on me.

Instead, you admit you didn't do the analysis...yet you also insist on trying to kill me anyway. From certain players, this might be normal. For a fucking self-admitted logical analytical player, it simply makes zero sense coming from town.

Likewise, scum can manipulate the trust of others to benefit the team/their personal needs.

The difference, however, is clear. A scum player actively works to gain that trust and manipulates players. You've done that. A town player doesn't actively work to gain that trust and simply assumes it will be there. It was.

Because fuck getting into a 1v1 wall war, I'm spoilering this shit.

[MastinSSK]

You ruthlessly continue your attacks on me, but you make no case to defend yourself, which I believe you have even said so earlier in the game.

Yep! And believe me. It's not because I can't defend myself. I can. It's because me being town is so fucking self-evident that I don't even really need to bother putting in the effort.

What if your attacks doesn't break this defensive wall I put up?

If at first you don't succeed...
Try, try again.
Which, thanks to my role, I can.

(Or I could just get PV lynched and become obvtown because me bussing remains an abnormality in my play which while not impossible is still unusual.)

Then you expose yourself to being attacked by others.

Sure do. Don't give a damn. See, that's the thing about town players on MS.net. (Again, gods, I wish I could scumread you for this, even though culture clash is far more likely the answer.) They don't care about others scumreading them. They care

about lynching scum

, and devote all their effort to it.

You're really no threat and many have their accusations against you, some more hidden than mines.

I love it when scum call me not a threat. It really has a way of blowing up in their faces.

If I read your analysis and continued to make such a statement, then that would lead to this; exposing myself in the more public open. Yet I still did just that.

The problem is that you're insisting it doesn't exist, and have flat-out called me not a threat. You think you have the edge over me. You don't think pushing me will backfire, and you think that in a fight, you'll win because you think that no matter how town I look, your logic will be superior. That gives you plenty enough reason to 'risk' it, given that there's enough players potentially supporting you that you don't think you'd catch flak.

Oh, and by the way. A lot of your points against my points aren't direct counters, but are more misdirections. Wish I could explain that.

(Not spoilering this one. 'Cause I didn't feel like it.)

[MastinSSK]

Err...

You ruthlessly continue your attacks on me, but you make no case to defend yourself, which I believe you have even said so earlier in the game.

Yep! And believe me. It's not because I can't defend myself. I can. It's because me being town is so fucking self-evident that I don't even really need to bother putting in the effort.

What if your attacks doesn't break this defensive wall I put up?

If at first you don't succeed...
Try, try again.
Which, thanks to my role, I can.

(Or I could just get PV lynched and become obvtown because me bussing remains an abnormality in my play which while not impossible is still unusual.)

Then you expose yourself to being attacked by others.

Sure do. Don't give a damn. See, that's the thing about town players on MS.net. (Again, gods, I wish I could scumread you for this, even though culture clash is far more likely the answer.) They don't care about others scumreading them. They care

about lynching scum

, and devote all their effort to it.

You're really no threat and many have their accusations against you, some more hidden than mines.

I love it when scum call me not a threat. It really has a way of blowing up in their faces.

If I read your analysis and continued to make such a statement, then that would lead to this; exposing myself in the more public open. Yet I still did just that.

The problem is that you're insisting it doesn't exist, and have flat-out called me not a threat. You think you have the edge over me. You don't think pushing me will backfire, and you think that in a fight, you'll win because you think that no matter how town I look, your logic will be superior. That gives you plenty enough reason to 'risk' it, given that there's enough players potentially supporting you that you don't think you'd catch flak.

Oh, and by the way. A lot of your points against my points aren't direct counters, but are more misdirections. Wish I could explain that.

(Not spoilering this one. 'Cause I didn't feel like it.)

[MastinSSK]

And I'm still considering my reads on you.

The govern ability is a fucking gladiate. A 1v1 IN WHICH ONE OF US GETS LYNCHED. You offered to go into it. You're saying you were still trying to figure me out. Yet you offered to go what is essentially a death-match where one of us lives and the other dies. Which might be okay if you actually meant you'd be willing to self-sacrifice.
But you made it clear that you had a case on me being scum...
...While also saying you needed to analyze me...
...And also offering up to enter into a literal 1v1 where there is NO other options...
...While insisting that you're still being a cautious, logical player.

It doesn't add up.

Your attitude if different, I could see as coming from town.
Entering into a 1v1 and trying to figure me out, I can see as town albeit unlikely, because if you're willing to self-sacrifice, it's a good move. But you said you had a case on me, which heavily implies you intend to win the fight, and not bother figuring me out.
Entering into a 1v1 if you've already done the analysis and have a case makes sense--it means you fully believe me to be scum, and are willing to risk your life to prove it. Yet you claimed that you hadn't done the analysis, and now are also claiming you didn't have a read on me figured out.
Not entering into a 1v1 if you haven't done the analysis makes sense--you might have a case, but because you're not sure of it, you're not going to recklessly push it.

You're trying to claim three things simultaneously. That you thought I was scum, that you were trying to figure things out, and that you were willing to risk your life.
From a logical player, you can have two of the three. But not all three simultaneously; that's playing about as illogical as can be.

(Outside the spoiler since this is the most important bit.)

Spoiler: Clyton

Are you sure you got that statement right?

Pretty sure, you just were saying it earlier in your posting in fact. I quoted some of it before.

I was under the assumption that was how you always acted, not because you are frustrated to the point of giving up.

You were under the impression that CAPS LOCK RAGE and fullclaiming randomly were the norm for me?

I was compromised. Not a little. A lot.

Not a lot of people can differentiate if you were truly frustrated or you were enacting that strategy.

Hint: Rancid was one of them and is now dead. Kagura is another of them. Mac was no slouch, either.

You yourself admitted not to trust in the word of the person saying it, but in the words of others supporting it. And, well. Others supported it.

Kill you? No. I wish to understand you.

Bullshit. Maybe you're pretending to do so now. But you offered to fucking 1v1 me. As said, that doesn't come from someone trying to understand; that comes from someone who is trying to kill.

Yet how can you explain other people being so adamant about you being scum?

Already have. Basically, it boils down to them living in the past and extreme arrogance.

Unfortunately, people have already agreed that your role is not truly town-indicative.

Not the point I was making. The point I was making is that my role means I can't get nightkilled. Meaning that I can afford to keep pushing and pushing and failing...

because I cannot die, I cannot be gotten rid of, and I cannot be removed

.

A killer has yet to target you today.

Actually, about that. A killer might have done so already. I'm not going to elaborate for obvious reasons. Just something that I picked up, and if I was even remotely correct, they know who they are and why I know them and think that they shot me.

"The here and now?" Still references reads based on previous games on particular players (Kagura, AP, PV, etc.) and does not seem to be objectively reading them in the context of this game.

I'm not? The closest you can come to me having done that is Fox/Hound in Xeno, but even then, I wasn't using Xeno to read them. I read Fox/Hound, Rancid, Kagura, AP, and PV and so on and so forth on the here and now. I also described the generalities of their playstyles, and how I know them and they know me. All general things, not linked to a specific game. I even explicitly explained what I meant. That I reference the general, and that's how I think, and may have a recent game where that trait was strongest, but that I'm not using that game specifically; I still mean it generally. Which is still in the here and the now.

I doubt there were any frustration posts due to her consistency with his playstyle and thinking for this game based on her role, till near the end of Day 1 (not as apparent as RBD's though).

Town, scum, doesn't matter. I say I was frustrated, I was fucking frustrated. The reasons differ, the results do not. (I don't do fakerage. Fakerage is, well...faked. And blatantly obviously so. Now, granted. There are fewer things that tick off a scum me. There's a reason why at times, it was considered a towntell for me to lose my shit: because a scum-me when suspected has a "meh, whatevs" attitude and is okay with it since the players suspecting me are right; a town-me...doesn't. But there are things that can tick off a scum me. Most of them being personal, like a player insulting my competency, or being hilariously wrong about their scumread on me yet frustratingly right in spite of that. [Yes, a scum me gets royally ticked off at Right-For-The-Wrong-Reasons.] Or me having a legitimate scumread as scum and not being able to get them lynched. Things like that, as scum, will cause legitimate rage.)

Mastin did not know how to handle herself once her (supposed) role was claimed to the public.

No shit, sherlock. BP claimed BP. Will no longer be able to get shot at. How'd you handle that? It took me 'til today to realize that I can still be a pain in the ass for scum. (Also, it's a

really fucking bad idea

to claim to be BP when you're not actually a BP as either alignment, really.)

Although it is not a strong scumread, it is probably his 2nd strongest scumread based on his list.

Correct. I don't have many scumreads, and bluntly, I don't need to. Perk of my role, I suppose.

(This one is a fair general question, so is outside the spoiler.)

Why the push against PV?

Because he's my strongest scumread.


But seriously. It's partially (okay, largely) POE. It's partially that I'm not putting much stock in the case for him being town. It's partially that I'm not liking most of his posting. It's largely gut. But honestly, it's mainly sheeping Rancid.

lb was a retard and didn't no lynch

more after this quick aram game

And who, pray tell, put him in there?

And again, there's a dissonance via insisting RBD is town yet not taking their read on me into consideration.

Only in an alternate universe where townies are always right and mafia games are always short.

Look. I'm not saying you should blindly trust Rancid's read on me. That would be the alternate universe. I mean, I'd like to. I'd love to say that. But I'm not. It's theoretically possible for me to have fooled the players who know me best, I guess, especially short-term.

...But you're not even taking it into consideration. It's had zero influence over your read. You're discarding it, casting away that vital piece of evidence. Which was formed...over the course of nineteen fucking days. Not short-term by any stretch of the imagination.

Scenario: Orci is scum. He therefore knows who is town and who isn't. He puts two

non-obvious

townies in.

...And is removing a late-game mislynch, while potentially also making the survivor be obvtown in the process, costing him a second mislynch.

By putting in someone who is obvtown and someone who isn't with both being town, it's win-win. Obvtown lynched, an obvtown player got lynched. Mislynch got lynched? Mislynch got mislynched. It's the optimum scum strategy.

So ya I didnt even submit on CF.

I almost want to say that AP's competency as scum means he wouldn't bother trying to pull this stunt as scum and would only pull the derp-gambit as town.
Almost.

VOTE: AngryPidgeon.
Butyeah. This is AP as scum. He's not going to pull a stunt like this as town.

[MastinSSK]

And yes I got a result on Kagura.

Oh? Did you now.

Kagura, Rancid, DesBRO, and Mac are the players that are townreads I'm willing to risk the game off of. Don't care what anyone else says on them. They're all town.

Really mastin? Your townread on Kagura is because Nacho made some passing comment about posting in the hydra QT? That hinges on Nacho not ever using the hydra QT over a neighbor QT which I just find to be a beyond terrible assumption on your end but ok.

This doesn't sound like someone with a result on Kagura. Either you have a town result and know I'm right and thus don't bother, or you have a scum result, know I'm wrong, and either ask me calmly about my Kagura read (if you doubt me), or keep silent (if you think me town-that's-wrong).

Also, do explain the logic behind why you investigated who you did, and more importantly, why you didn't investigate who you didn't.

Kagura needs to come in here and talk to me.

This doesn't sound like someone with a result on the player, either.

[MastinSSK]

have you literally called the whole playerlist scum at some point?

Probably, but this is solidly null.

AP: Your (Actual, no BS) investigate target in your next post with the result you got.

You and I was explicitly told that my role failed.

This is not you having a result.

This is you explicitly NOT having a result.

Which if. (Big if.) You were town. The scum already would know more likely than not, barring another town blocking role or Kagura being one of the roles that fails investigations instantly.

Meaning that hiding it is essentially pointless.

But eh. I change my mind anywayz.

VOTE: PeregrineV.

'Cause I am a fickle creature.

[MastinSSK]

Actually.
VOTE: AngryPidgeon.
Just realized something.

I claimed an inno on F16 because I wanted to see who they'd react to it.

Your role, AP, as I understand it, is submitting three names that you want investigated, and scum choose one of them.

Assume your submitted names are truthful. Scum know you submitted those names.

Then you fakeclaim submitting something else. Scum know you're lying.

You gain...
...What, exactly, from doing this?

It doesn't add up.

Vote: MastinSSK

This vote will confuse Mastin.

Nope, makes total sense, 'specially if you're scum with AP and you distanced but are now redirecting attention to a town lynch.

[MastinSSK]

If you guys think Im this stupid then I really REALLY cant help you.

I was hoping to catch CF in a lie about his role. And

yes I got a result on Kagura

.

VOTE: AP

Good fucking god, I'm agreeing with Fox/Hound. (Cephrir? I kinda remember DV being the main one who signs posts.)

See AP, this is what I don't understand. What is the rationale for a roleblocker to RB you? If it is a town RB, why RB a claimed cop? Take the chance and use the information he provides (even with fake; importance being using it as an alternative guideline) while RBing other suspects with potential kill power. Based on the kill results, there were two kills, one obviously done by scum, therefore highlighting the importance of RBing the correct target rather than someone who claimed cop. If it is a scum RB, you outright stated the mafia can choose who you will investigate. They can manipulate in many ways possible with this. There is no gain for the mafia roleblocker to RB you.

...And Clyton, too.

I'll just go sit in my corner and hold the delusion that AP, Clyton, and PV are all scum, distancing while ultimately going to go for some other lynch.

[MastinSSK]

And how is dropping all of my suspicion because "Muffinati said so" anything but?

...You cut out the following context that provided the answer. I'm not asking for that. But you're not taking it into consideration at all. One head is firm in a scumread on me for bullshit reasons, the other at nulltown on as far as I can tell nothing but me. Rancid's read hasn't impacted you at all, thus, it's been discarded.

That's still spending a mislynch that could be a game-saver in lylo, whereas putting "scumreads" who are actually both town saves face

and

gets a mislynch.

But again. What happens if one of the mislynches becomes obvtown? LB did. What if another mislynch candidate was against LB and also became obvtown off of their banter? One would die, yeah. But the other would then no longer be a mislynch.

You know I was/am assuming F-16 is scum. So Im pretty sure the scumteam would know Im lying when I claim the inno on him. The reaction is kind of the point.

F-16 is scum, and knows you didn't investigate him, least of all as innocent. He sees your result and knows you're lying, calling you out on it.
F-16 is town, and knows your result on him can't be true. He calls you out on it.

...You accomplish...what, exactly, in having done this?


But, *siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigh*
VOTE: orcinus_theoriginal.
I'm just gonna leave this here for a while while I cry.

[MastinSSK]

Basically,
I keep thinking AP's scum but wavering.
I keep thinking PV's scum, but doubting.
I keep thinking Clyton's scum, but unsure.

All three are rotatingly my strongest scumread.
Then the weakest.
Then middle.
Then strongest.
And so on.

Orc's the only one who never leaves the scum pile, though.

[MastinSSK]

Basically,
I keep thinking AP's scum but wavering.
I keep thinking PV's scum, but doubting.
I keep thinking Clyton's scum, but unsure.

All three are rotatingly my strongest scumread.
Then the weakest.
Then middle.
Then strongest.
And so on.

Orc's the only one who never leaves the scum pile, though.

I'm back here, but as I was driving, I thought of something.
I'm 90% sure AP's scum. There's a bundle-load of reasons. Among them is the inconsistencies, like this one:

ALL THAT SAID, Im a little unsure how I fee labout them. I doubt scum would let me investigate Kagura regardless of their plan to RB me so Im guessing Kagura is more likely just town atm.

Concluding town on Kagura in spite of a lack of result,

Really mastin? Your townread on Kagura is because Nacho made some passing comment about posting in the hydra QT? That hinges on Nacho not ever using the hydra QT over a neighbor QT which I just find to be a beyond terrible assumption on your end but ok.

But doubting my own logic for thinking it, his "has a result" while not having a result, his change from miller-innocent into this, and everything around it. But his claim isn't really why I'm seeing him as scum. I thought of things as I was driving, and I simply am not seeing a plausible scumteam that doesn't include him as a member.

While I can see the town train of thought, I don't actually believe it, you could say. However, that said, I'm not voting AP right now, mainly for one reason: the Free-Thor-Mislynch card I kinda feel obligated to give him. Basically, while I'm fairly certain he's scum, the chance that he isn't is enough for me to not support his lynch today. I'll re-evaluate that tomorrow.

So what of the others?
Orc is still not leaving my scum pile.
Nor is PV, not really. Like AP, I simply don't see a scumteam, a truly plausible scumteam, that doesn't have PV on it. Like, I'm trying to see the town picture, but I'm not.
Clyton, on the other hand, I

can

see the town picture. It's...kinda weak overall. But it is possible that it exists.

And for that reason,
VOTE: PeregrineV.

[MastinSSK]

orcinus asked me if I was ok with being 1v1'd.

And you think this is indicative of him being town, why exactly? Because I see that need to ask permission as not being town-oriented. Not necessarily scum-oriented (although I lean that way), but I'm not seeing the towntell.

I think his obvious impression that he'd set up a chance to talk with both of us during the 1v1 also looked town. I don't think scum-orcinus would seek out an opportunity to spend 3 days in a game thread with me with no distractions given that I'd been unsure enough about him to vote him during the deadline lynch mad dash.

This one, I can

see

, but it also runs both ways: three days with nothing but you is a great way to get you to read him as town.

[MastinSSK]

If you take the fact you posted the bolded, I find the inconsistency that you did not quote 3595 to use against me a sign that you are not town.

I mean, I didn't really see that post of yours, but reading it I'm still not understanding what you're saying here.

Also, the manner in which you can continue to post while not actually scumhunting is somewhat impressive, really.

Right now, getting shit together (dumping thoughts) is more important for me than scumhunting. (Again. Quirk of my role, you could say.)

I don't think you've included an original thought in any of your last 10 posts.

Well said ten posts have been made without reading the content later in the thread so I thought of them first, they just got posted later.

I mean, my scumspects haven't really changed, and my basic reasoning for them hasn't changed, so there's that. But the specifics have, and thus they need to be said.

[MastinSSK]

2 The Fox and the Hound (cephrir and DV)
3 Yggdra Union (giffy and pieguyn) 3 Yukari Yakumo
4 orcinus_theoriginal
8 Breakfast With Stalin (Hydra of ffery and beli)
9 AngryPidgeon 9 ElementalHawk (Prohawk+3dicerolling)
10 Carbon Fiber (FourTrouble and F16)

13 Red Gyarados (Brian Skies and notscience)

14 Cupcake Panda
15 PeregrineV
16 Clyton

Screw it, I'll call Titan conftown. And I'm eliminating Red Gyarados for the time being. (Still want more ns, though. And BS, for that matter.) And let's take Kats out for the heck of it.

2 The Fox and the Hound (cephrir and DV)
3 Yggdra Union (giffy and pieguyn) 3 Yukari Yakumo
4 orcinus_theoriginal

8 Breakfast With Stalin (Hydra of ffery and beli)

9 AngryPidgeon 9 ElementalHawk (Prohawk+3dicerolling)

10 Carbon Fiber (FourTrouble and F16)

15 PeregrineV
16 Clyton

I keep coming back to the eight names. For four scum.

F-16's probably town, and I'll remove him. Stalin's a townread.

So most town to least town,
Stalin
Yggdra Union / Fox/Hound
Fox/Hound / Yggdra Union
Clyton
orcinus
AP
PV

Approximate strength. I don't think the scumteam's Clyton-orc-AP-PV. I'm thinking only 2 (maybe 3, if I'm lucky) of them are actually scum.

Which would make one of {Stalin, Yggdra, Fox/Hound} be scum.
Am kinda wondering if it's Yggdra again, though. I can't remember why they're a townread.

[MastinSSK]

P-edit: Your read on Orcinus is fairly fresh isn't it?

Not really. I was one of the first to support the flashwagon on him, and I was aiming at nullscum. I suppose the read evolved from nullscum to proper scum recently, sure, yeah, but otherwise, no.

[MastinSSK]

To be honest, if ns and Brian Skies don't start upping their game, I'm gonna get paranoid enough to bump 'em down from above-Carbon to below-Stalin. (Immediately below, admittedly, putting them above the nulls, but still weak town.)

[MastinSSK]

Still prefer lynching PV or Clyton

BTW, found this isoing Rancid. (I'm looking for his thoughts on Yygdra.)

And ns. notscience. NOTSCIENCE.

GET YER ASS IN HERE, I KNOW YOU'RE ONLINE.

[MastinSSK]

Gif, I get nacho misreading me--he has a horrid history at times, but, you, well, put pieguy on the line then. We're gonna chat, bro.

Rancid's last read on GIF was town, but I'm not seeing why, yet. And I'm not sure I will. :/

[MastinSSK]

3 Yggdra Union (giffy and pieguyn) 3 Yukari Yakumo
^

Considered town

. Removed from the list. Bluntly, I've got zero read here, but unlike impostors pretending to be open, I

actually

trust others, and in this case, with me not really scumreading them, I'm trusting the townread. Their posting does look town, albeit not very helpful town.

Oh.

I never had a townread on them.

That's

why I can't remember my reasoning. Never had any.
But guh. Rancid townread them. I need to look at all the players who did townread 'em and see how much I trust that. Like, Stalin has, I know that, but I'm not sure if the reasoning was legitimate. I know DesBRO and F-16 do, but they're a bit silent on that front as to why if memory serves. There had to be others.

[MastinSSK]

Oh, oh.
I guess technically, I did. Reading that bit more. I thought them vaguely town for whatever reasoning I guess.
It's moments like this I wish I did better bookkeeping and knew

who

was townreading them; I'm not sure I can track them all down.

[MastinSSK]

I don't care much for the first question right now, but I'm not arguing that CF are scum at all right now. I'm arguing that RBD are town and there is town motivation in pressing CF to see if the claim is true. Why would he back off early as town?

(Oh. Right. I also forgot, Mac townread me too. And he's flipped town for surez, soyeah.)

Vote: Peregrine

I haven't really read much of the last pages and may not get time before the deadline.

There's also this.

Granted, yeah. Mac obvtown. But that doesn't mean that if he was intentionally killed by scum, that was their reasoning. (In fact, that would be reasoning for them to avoid killing him intentionally.)

If I had to pick scum out of the AP/Mastin shitstorm that's been brewing, it would more than likely be AP. He came into this game and was pounced upon by mastin, and was immediately pretty much "yeah, you're town mastin, but wrong." Now since the tides have slowly been turning against mastin, he's shifted his opinion to suit with it and something about his trajectory (/ffery) feels very off.

Like early doors, mastin was yelling about AP being scum. And I don't think all that much has changed between mastin then and mastin now.

Shows it a bit more clearly.

Supertown:
RBD
Titan
Breakfast With Stalin
Kagura

Town:
Clyton
RG
orcinus? would like your opinion on this

Fucked if I know:
Mastin
AP
Just Sheep Us

Lol, who?
LordBusiness
Cupcake

Scumreads:
CarbonFiber
Fox and the Hound

P5
Yukari

--

I mean, Yukari is the only flatout scumread I have thanks to GiF's complete, flatout disengagement with the thread. CF is pretty much gut since I can't really tell either way whether his posting is sincere or not, and the Fox and the Hound is based on RBD's read.

I guess if you go that way, I should be townreading mastin and to an extent, I am, but there's just SO MUCH FUCKING NOISE that I don't know what to think anymore. I threw P5 in with the scumpile but to be honest, I could've stuck in the "lol, who?" pile too because he comes and he goes at his convenience. LordBusiness is a strange one - after campaigning most of the day for more game reads and less meta, there's alot of gameplay cropping up and he's practically no where to be seen.

I'd like AP and Mastin to just shut up, articulate their cases against each other in nice bullet points and then go their seperate ways because I can't be the only one whose heart drops when 10 pages of new content is literally them having CAPS LOCK PARTIES and shouting "HE'S SCUM, NO, SHE'S SCUM!"

I realize this is a bit old on Mac's list, but it is a bit of a point, since Mac's a fairly competent scumhunter. If you follow the thoughts he posted later in his iso, orcinus gets bumped down, DesBRO WAY up, and Carbon slightly up, with Fox/Hound going to null I think. (More or less.)

[MastinSSK]

So, you are looking up the townreads of the unflipped player instead of anything the two dead town players said?

No, I'm prioritizing the DEAD TOWN RANCID (fuck his flip being janitored, I don't need it to tell he was town) read over the read of other dead town. Because I trust both of them a lot, even (no, ESPECIALLY) from the grave.

Priorities.

[MastinSSK]

Somebody (brian?) said that GIF replacing into a hydra made them practically conftown.

Oh, right.

I think that was it.

And, uh. I kinda want to trust that.

'Specially given that I remember my thought about GIF at the time being nulltown 'cause I kinda see his play as being from town.

[MastinSSK]

I'm eliminating Red Gyarados for the time being. (Still want more ns, though. And BS, for that matter.)

Yggdra removed for being probtown.

2 The Fox and the Hound (cephrir and DV)
4 orcinus_theoriginal

8 Breakfast With Stalin (Hydra of ffery and beli)

9 AngryPidgeon 9 ElementalHawk (Prohawk+3dicerolling)

10 Carbon Fiber (FourTrouble and F16)

15 PeregrineV
16 Clyton

I keep coming back to the

seven

names. For four scum.

F-16's probably town, and I'll remove him. Stalin's a townread.

So most town to least town,
Stalin
Fox/Hound
Clyton
orcinus
AP
PV

Approximate strength. I don't think the scumteam's Clyton-orc-AP-PV. I'm thinking only 2 (maybe 3, if I'm lucky) of them are actually scum.

Which would make one of {Stalin, Fox/Hound} be scum.

Would be the update.

...Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck, I'm running out of ways to call Stalin town.

[MastinSSK]

'Specially given that I remember my thought about GIF at the time being nulltown 'cause I kinda see his play as being from town.

I never had a townread on them.

I have a bad memory. I thought I didn't, then remembered that I did.

[MastinSSK]

Sonofabitch, this is hard.

Stalin.
Fox/Hound.
Clyton.
Orcinus.
AP.
PV.

I think the four scum are in there.
But I really can't tell who it is, other than thinking orc-Stalin is an unlikely pairing.

One of the two is likely scum. (Leaning orc.)
But that'd eliminate the other, leaving only one town between Fox/Hound, Clytyon, AP, and PV. And I really can't tell.

Maybe it's orc-Fox/Hound-AP-PV. Maybe orc-AP-PV-Clyton. I feel like those two are the best bets. But dammit. This sucks.

(Fortunately, I can't be nightkilled, so there's that; I can continue to figure it out as the game progresses.)

[MastinSSK]

(Fortunately, I can't be nightkilled, so there's that; I can continue to figure it out as the game progresses.)

(Oh, hey. Just realized. That means my iso will likely end up being THE longest in the game. All the other big posters, be it via lynch or nightkill, are prone to being deadz by the end of the game. With a dash of trust combined with my role, bam, bingo, I'm going to outlive all ya bastards and be postin' 'til the end.)

[MastinSSK]

(...Which I shouldn't be bragging about. BAD Mastin, BAD. Long isos are not an achievement! )

[MastinSSK]

...I'm an idiot.

Orc-Stalin is a possible scumteam.

Risking a scumbuddy is his style.

[MastinSSK]

...I'm an idiot.

Orc-Stalin is a possible scumteam.

Risking a scumbuddy is his style.

...I'm a moron.

True, it is his style to do that.

His treatment of Stalin and Stalin's treatment of him is why the team is unlikely. It's not how he used his role. It's how he interacted with them prior to using his role that way, and how they interacted with him.

[MastinSSK]

I called AP from early on, people just weren't that interested in listening.

I might have an idea of who LB is (don't really care on the specifics; I picked up the vibe that LB's a player who holds some respect for me of which I have narrowed down to a couple of most-likelies that I have a hunch or two on that I'm choosing not to follow through on), and if I'm even remotely on-base, this holds at least some level of validity, since LB would be someone having interacted with AP a fair amount.

So much for a no lynch huh orcinus?

Also valid point.

I have little else to add except maybe weak town on fox and hound. Pieguyn and giffy I still haven't gotten around to yet, sorry about that.

Slightly important.

It seems a lock then between our reads that RBD, tItan and carbonfiber are worth considering a town block. Fox you may be a Leto sell me but I wot be putting kagura near that from my viewpoint.

In terms of strong scum options, cupcake panda, AP, and PV seem to be a concensus, with you having a strong view of mastin. As a pool of 4 it's at least something for the rest to work with.

Also nice reads, though I don't get the Kagura/Katsuki reads. AP and PV, though, totally get.

4 orcinus_theoriginal - town
7 MastinSSK (Mastin2, MafiaSSK) - town
8 Breakfast With Stalin (Hydra of ffery and beli) - town
12 Just Sheep Us (Broseidon and Desperado) - weak town
13 Red Gyarados (Brian Skies and notscience) - weak town
16 Clyton - weak scum

Other reads not discussed a lot. Orc mighta moved down; it's ambiguous. Butyeah. Definitely good things, here.

[MastinSSK]

If you're town, then that's a solid clue that you've got at least one serious misread.

Yeah, but who?

Kagura? No. Titan? No. F-16? Doubtful. Yggdra? Apparently not. DesBRO? HECK no. Red Gyarados? (...Okay. Pending.) Katsuki? (Probs-not.)

Those are the townreads. (In no particular order.) Who there couldn't be town?

That's not even going into null/scumreads that could be town, like Fox/Hound and Clyton.

[MastinSSK]

Really thinking that AP, PV, and orcinus are three of our scum right now, with the only question being Clyton or Fox/Hound.

But aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahg.
I'm not nearly a competent enough scumhunter to be that close to being right so early-on.

[MastinSSK]

(And the sad thing is?
...Even if I was, my iso's too damn long for anyone to pay attention to it. :/)

[MastinSSK]

Fuck it, I'm bumping Red Gyarados down to the pile. notscience was online; I know this for an absolute fact. Yet he's been absent ever since his initial obvtownness.
Brian Skies hasn't posted, either. Both of them should be in here, posting, even if they don't have a damn clue about what's going on.

They wanna keep the townread, they need to earn that fucking townread. 'Cause POE is a bitch and them being scum would help alleviate a lot of my confidence issues.

[MastinSSK]

Mod:

Can you send PMs to each individual head of Red Gyarados that the day has begun?

[MastinSSK]

(Side-note, but 372 versus Stalin's 368. *fistpump*
YEAH. TOP OF LEADERBOARD FOR THE "Too damn long to bother reading" LIST.)

[MastinSSK]

...I just realized what that means.

I don't think in my history of ~150 games.
That I've ever broken the two-page barrier.
I could be wrong. I could have done it before.
But I really, really don't think I have.

And I'm a page-worth of posts away from it.
Meaning aside from a quicklynch on me, I will be breaking it this game.
This game is the game where I've never done more talking.
Granted. About a page (probably a bit less) of that is SSK. Granted. A fair amount is spamposting like this. But still...

THREE PAGE ISO CLUB, FUCK YEAH, HERE I COME.

[MastinSSK]

Mod:

Can you send PMs to each individual head of Red Gyarados that the day has begun?

This user is not due for a prod.

I meant forwarding the start-of-day PM that you sent to all players, just to the individual heads. (For instance, the first I knew of the game being in day was seeing it on D2 when browsing the Theme Park, 'cause I was expecting it to still be at night and the daystart PM was in the hydra inbox that I never check during the night.)

They're due for a prod in 12 hours anyway.

BRO and I it like 4 pages in Anything Goes >.>

Which I might end up with anyway.

'Specially given my role and if I were to come at risk of getting lynched.

[MastinSSK]

Mod:

Can you send PMs to each individual head of Red Gyarados that the day has begun?

This user is not due for a prod.

I meant forwarding the start-of-day PM that you sent to all players, just to the individual heads. (For instance, the first I knew of the game being in day was seeing it on D2 when browsing the Theme Park, 'cause I was expecting it to still be at night and the daystart PM was in the hydra inbox that I never check during the night.)

I mean, it should be pretty dang obvious to anyone online that seeing the names of multiple hydras from this game at the last poster in the theme part that the game's in day and it's not just a bunch of altslips or another game with the same hydras, given time. But it IS possible that someone not paying attention to that wouldn't know to look. Like I said, I learned it was day not from the PM you sent to the hydra, but because I was browsing the theme park anyway. If you had forwarded the daystart PM to my main, then I woulda known instantly.

(They can still be town if they're ignorant of the game being in day, btw.)

Threatening to spam the thread even MORE if you get wagoned, beautiful tactic

Oh, no. Not a threat. Not even a promise. Just a guarantee given my psychology. (Which ironically would cause any legitimate message of mine to be lost.)

[MastinSSK]

Game has gone two or three hours without posts.
Something has gone horribly horribly wrong.

[MastinSSK]

(Three.)

But anyway. I keep on doing that analysis over and over again.
I'm calling Red Gyarados town.
If Stalin's town, only five names are possible scum to me.
And three of them I'm not wavering on. (Well, orc I guess could be considered a slight waver, dependent on Stalin.)

[MastinSSK]

I'm reviewing the names.
I just don't see it any other way.
I realize Nacho/Bork have good scumgames, but I simply don't see them as scum. And bluntly, I'm willing to risk the game on that.
Yggdra Union I guess could be scum, but I really don't think so.
Titan I'm willing to risk the game on being town.
Carbon, not quite that level, but close.
DesBRO is at that level, too, of game-risking town.
I strongly believe Red Gyarados to be town.
And Katsuki is probably town, too.

Like...normally, there'd be some sort of chink in here. And I realize it's not perfect, but...well, there isn't. Not that I can see anyway.

SSK's online and chatting right now. He's strongly urging a look at ffery.

[MastinSSK]

And by 'urging a look at ffery', I mean that SSK thinks she's not been productive and could be scum from that. (Not sure if he's actually scumreading her. But at the very least, he's eyeing her suspiciously.)

[MastinSSK]

Guh. I'm going in circles about the six, now.

We should lynch either AP or PV, preferably PV. And let the chips for the others fall where they will.

[MastinSSK]

I need to iso things. Be back.

[MastinSSK]

I'm looking at orcinus's iso, and skimming it...it really, really looks like scum, but I can't pin down why. Lack of strength? Buddying others? No originality? Directing onto bad places? Minimal effort? I dunno, none of those sound like a proper way of conveying it. His iso just feels...

off

.

[MastinSSK]

Skimming Clyton's iso, I can see it either way. The first half looks decently townish, the second half the opposite. I'm not sure what to make of him one way or the other.

[MastinSSK]

(Guessing town, I guess, though.)

[MastinSSK]

Skimming PV, he still looks like scum, though admittedly not quite as strongly as I remember.
I really think that PV, AP, and orc are all scum. The fourth is less certain. Guess I'd lean towards Fox/Hound?

[MastinSSK]

I'm starting to find it difficult to believe scum would bother doing the amount of wheel-spinning that Mastin seems to be doing right now. And if they did they would realize they just kept saying the same things and stop.

Don't take this as encouragement though, I'd still prefer that it stop v.v

Mastin, you do realize that you are flooding the thread with nothing of relevance. Your last posts are a revolving door of waffles on reads and assertions that your town core could have scum in it but doesnt.
Holy crap.

...
(This can't be coincidence.)

[MastinSSK]

I'm starting to find it difficult to believe scum would bother doing the amount of wheel-spinning that Mastin seems to be doing right now. And if they did they would realize they just kept saying the same things and stop.

Don't take this as encouragement though, I'd still prefer that it stop v.v

Mastin, you do realize that you are flooding the thread with nothing of relevance. Your last posts are a revolving door of waffles on reads and assertions that your town core could have scum in it but doesnt.
Holy crap.

...
(This can't be coincidence.)

Just realized PV also made a similar point about me.

By the way, worth mentioning. As I was driving home, I had another thought. I fucked up my chances at getting nightkilled by claiming. But...well. That doesn't mean I can't make the scumteam miserable enough to wish I was nightkillable. I want to have that. That paragon of mafia hunters level of play. Or rather...more specifically, to channel the Fate/somebodyelseIdontremember hydra in RPG Mafia II that was a treestump and had the entire scumteam nailed. (Not Fate's style, of course. I mean Fate's success.)

I don't have nearly as much time as I need to have in order to pull a full analysis. Gods, I wish I did. I wish that I could put that much time and effort in. But I already put far too damn much into it already. So I can't. I can only put in as much time as I can put in, and make the most of that time, and do the best that I can with that time.

...All of this basically means that while I think the points by PV, Fox/Hound, and AP are likely to have been made by primarily scum, that they're not entirely unjustified. I'm trying to do analysis. But I'm not getting very far with it. I'm trying to figure it all out, here, on what is essentially a day one since our natural D1 was never given to us.

And part of this? Part of this is that, well. I know I wasn't great in Xeno. (Venmar called. He wants neck back.) But while I was wrong there, I feel like, in this case, potentially making that same mistake again. That game? That game, I said a fair amount of this. "Yeah, I know, I suck. I screwed up. I have no confidence. But I truly believe this." With 'this' being something that was also wrong. But honestly. As I was driving home, I realized that, well. I was kinda letting myself get trapped in the past, of that game. Not on reading others.
...Of my own skills. I'm afraid.
Truly afraid.

To ever risk taking up the mantle of town leader.
I really, really am afraid each and every time.
Because every single time in recent history, I've fucked up.
I've done wrong when in charge.
And who's to say that this game would be any better?
What would make me magically suddenly be good when I haven't been?
Thus the fear. Because there's a history of me being wrong, and a history of me being confident that in spite of having been wrong, that "this time, I'm right", only to be wrong again.

Yet I don't want that.
I want to move on from the past.
And actually succeed.

And honestly, that's why I've felt the pressure to have the answer, yet frustratingly have been doubting that. Because while I always feel like I'm close, that fear of me being wrong is overwhelmingly strong. I am not good at making calculations as town. I pretend I am. I am not good at leading towns, though I pretend to all the time. I am not good at logic, contrary to what Natirasha insists. I'm, well. Just a girl who is okay at everything, but never exceeds in anything. With my best skill being bridging rifts in the town.

But know what I'm beginning to feel like?
That might be the real me. But I want more than that. I'm greedy. Ambitious. And bluntly, my feeling towards yet again not being control is to say, "fuck that".

So know what?

I feel like taking control of the town.
Oh, I'll probably change my mind at some point down the line.
But unlike in Xeno where this was merely a threat.
This is me making a promise.

I will not blame any mislynch. None. I will place absolutely zero percent of the blame on any player I cause the death of. And take 100% of the accountability for it. For their death, be it via lynch or nightkill. If I lead to a town loss, I will own up about it. I won't give a list of excuses. I won't say that this wasn't all on me. I will take all of it in, as having been purely my fault for having led the town astray. And I'll live with any consequences of the decision. People declaring they don't want to play with me again. People asking me not to play at all. People lecturing me. They'll have every right to be right, and I won't fight them in their lectures.

This I promise you.

Right or wrong.

I'm sick of feeling like a piece of fucking trash. And right or wrong, I'm going to be directing players this game. Oh, I realize there are plenty of town players here who can be leaders. A fair amount scumreading me. Don't give a damn. I've resolved to this. And if it divides the town, then I will take full blame for that, too. But I'm done with that self-doubt. I'm planting my foot firmly down in the ground and shouting out to the world.

I won't claim to have all the answers.
I won't claim to have a perfect picture of the scumteam.

But I will hunt down the scum.
One by one.

So I don't give a damn about scumreads on me.
SHEEP ME.

VOTE: PeregrineV.

[MastinSSK]

Ffery can I cash in the trust card from Song Contest to get you are to see Mastin is town. Both muffin and I are 100% certain on this read, and we correctly read her as scum in both the Open and Attack on Titan. The downright fact is, if we are wrong on this, we are collectively awful. Muffin and in are already at our wits end with this player list so please please please trust us.

I disagreed with at least half of what Nati said in this post.

Then if you're town, trust him.

One of the things that I realize is ticking me off is that both Rancid and Mac were supporters of me. (And by the way. My modus operandi as scum is to NOT kill the players supporting me. It's to fucking kill the players trying to lynch me, NKA be damned. And you can go straight to hell if you bring up "but you're not the only player on a scumteam", since when I am scum, I am the fucking president of nightkills. I'll let my scumbuddies elect a candidate, but I have to give it my seal of approval and have veto power.) But part of the reason that I'm going to try and take the plunge into the role of town leader? Is because bluntly, Rancid shoulda been there D1. He died, and I strongly believe there was a DAMN-good reason for it.

I realize they don't have perfect accuracy as scumhunters. But they don't suck. No, they are EXCELLENT players, and their death was important. So if for nobody else if not them, then I'm pushing for a PV lynch. Oh, sure. We can and should make productive use of our time for today to discuss other things. But no other lynch (other than potentially AP) should be happening today. And while I might not be a paragon of mafia hunters, I don't suck either. I'm mediocre, not godfuckingawful. So this should be happening.

Again, I'm not saying we should be speedlynching. But this wagon can, should, and will be happening today.

[MastinSSK]

also, mastin, if you respond to this post I'll take it as a scum claim.

Every

action I do is a scumclaim to you.

But I am not letting that happen.

Rancid's already rolling in his fucking grave that I'm the lead fucking wagon when that is the ONE FUCKING THING he said for the town NOT to do after he flipped town. (Well, he didn't flip town, but he DID flip and anyone with half a fucking brain knows he was town.)

No.

I realize that part of being a leader is not declaring "my way or the highway". I'm not going to be an absolute dictator, insisting an absolute lynch above all others on PeregrineV.

But I am in command this game, not you. I will never.

Never

. Let myself be mislynched.

I'll do what I can to not be antagonistic to those who disagree with me. But I'm not going to shy away. I'm going to be forceful. Risk of mislynching be damned. I'm going to be aggressive. I'm going to do what I can to keep my emotions under control. I'll do my best to be reasonable about the whole affair and open to others. I will attempt not to get overly invested in things. But I will NOT be a pushover. I will NOT back down easily. (Certainly not rolling over to die.) I will NOT let myself feel unreasonable doubt. I will NOT let myself get trapped in a neverending cycle of lack-of-commitment.

Because I am not letting myself lose another fucking game thanks to a lack of strong presence. I am here. Not posting-here. Here, here.

And these words are more than just words. They are one final reach-out.
I am not scum manipulating. I am not scum panicking. I am not scum inflicting despair and apathy. (Quite the opposite.) I am not concerned about your read. I don't give a flying fuck that you're scumreading me. You are wrong. I addressed every single point about the "personal attacks" already which if you bothered to fucking read my posts you'd have seen already. So if you have so much as an iota of respect for my talent as town. Then now's the time to show it.

[MastinSSK]

Okay, I lied.

Every

action I do is a scumclaim to you.

This is also a reach-out to pie, and F-16, because both have claimed to be my students, and I'm challenging them with this:

Name the town things I've done.

This isn't scum-asking-you-to-do-their-work-for-them. You two have BOTH seen me lecture extensively on this theory before. There is no perfect scumbag. A scum player will always have town and scum things about them, and a town player always have scum and town things about them. The more competent the scumbag, the more town things there will be. In fact, the don corelone level scum players typically only have one or two potential (not even definitive) indicators of why they are scum. (And while I'm not at don corelone levels, you both know I'm close.)

So this should be easy to you. You should have no trouble listing all the myriad of town things my scumbag ass has done this game, because a scuMastin is good at looking town without being town.

[MastinSSK]

And no, don't you dare give a fucking vague answer. I realize it's a Mastin thing to do, to be vague and not go into any specifics. But you two aren't me, and bluntly, that is a flaw in my play anyway, one that I've been trying to manage and maybe get rid of. I'm talking specifics. It should be pathetically easy to do. PATHETICALLY. Because a scum me has done so easily before. A scum me has masterfully fooled town players. A scum me has a whole repertoire of tactics to get townread.

So I'm not asking you to show me "scum-faking-town", either. That might be part of it. But even as scum, you know I post town things specifically because I know them to be town things, so there should be things that are legitimately town, too, even if you don't think they mean I'm town. (Umm. That made more sense in my head?) Heck, you don't even need to take time building it. It's not something you even remotely believe, so I don't expect you to do a whole iso and compile a full list of quotes showing the town side of me that a scum me would want to have maximized.

I'll sum it up. Know what I'm asking you to do?
"I realize you think Mastin is town, because of *reasons for townread*. But I disagree, for *reasons for scumread*."
You know.

THE.
Lesson I taught both of you. Basic fucking fundamental of the game. You can do it.

[MastinSSK]

And you know it's not a damn unreasonable request, either. It's something that you should be wanting to do anyway. Because if you actually did it well, you'd potentially get more support for lynching me, by shutting down the reasons for players to townread me and maximizing the reasons for me being scumread.

[MastinSSK]

I uh. Are you trying to argue you are town because you haven't done town things?

No. I'm not arguing anything with them. (In general? I am done arguing. No more of that this game. We've had too fucking much arguing already. I have. Rancid did. Everyone has. Everywhere. Heated debates on all sides. And I'm going to shut those down. Discussion will continue, yes. But I refuse to let arguing break out. Not in MY town.)

Those posts are meant to illustrate a point. It does speak to them as a player, but it is ALSO speaking to them as a teacher. There is a lesson to be had. It's not "I'm town because I haven't done town things". That kinda sorta vaguely comes close to hitting on the lessons (actually now that I think about it, it's plural not singular), but is not an accurate description at all. I'll of course elaborate if pie/F-16 take me up on the challenge. (Which they really should be. Literally no downside other than that their scumread is the one requesting it, and a ton of potential upside for them.)

It's like this game is just spinning endlessly while mastin is still in it.

Has been spinning, yes. But that's part of what sparked my sudden decision. I haven't said it in games.
Literally, it's been GAMES UPON GAMES. Since I last said it.
But I am flipping the fucking switch into scumhunting godmode now. Because I'm sick of this.

And I'm not letting myself get lynched. Not on scumreads, and certainly not off of fucking policy. No. I'm going to do what we all should have been doing since the beginning and going about this reasonably and without emotions invested into it.

[MastinSSK]

(Btw, I saw a totally badass version of this shirt which basically sums up my feelings of how I am as scum. I'm kinda sad I can't find the version that I saw; it really helped sell the look, with the bunny and the black background and the stuff on the shirt other than the pink text.)

[MastinSSK]

and if you're scum I don't wanna give you easy material to keep BS'ing about (bc it's obviously what your strategy has been so far)

And I already explained why it's within your best interest to do so.

But let's say you had townread ask you to do exactly what I just asked you to do. Would you reject it, then?

[MastinSSK]

Oh. Just realized one thing that'd make them hesitate.
Promise.
Absolutely, 100%.
Will not use anything you use in saying why I'm town as a reason I'm town. (Unless it's a reason I already have said. Then I said it first, so I can still say it again in spite of you having said it, too. ) So say you make a damn-good 'case' showing the town aspects of my iso. I will quote none of it. It's not ammo to be used to avert my mislynch. Nor will I let others quote it as evidence against either of you being inconsistent, since it was me, specifically, who made the request of you, not something you did on your own.

I'm not going to say it's a good case. I'm not going to use anything in there. I'm not going to use it against you. I won't distract the thread further with points from it. I won't point out things in there that are right or wrong. I will do absolutely nothing to twist it to my advantage against you. Guarantee you. 100%. My word. Furthermore, I would be inclined to heavily scumread anyone who tried to twist your words against you, too, meaning that if you grant my request, you've basically earned yourself a free defender of yourself.

That's a damn-good deal. And you know I am honorable. You know I mean every word of what I'm offering, here. So you really have no reason not to take the deal. You can even spoiler it if you're afraid it'll be distracting noise.

[MastinSSK]

seriously, you managed to make 4 posts and not actually counter my real point.

Because you specifically asked me not to, and I honored that request. (If you want me to, I can, even though the answer's right there in my own iso, but you specifically asked me not to.)

sorry but I have literally no respect for someone who pisses off other ppl and is arrogant enough to not even give two fucking shits about it, while at the same time being hypocritical enough to call other ppl arrogant and emotionally manipulate others.

I'd take a look at Rancid's reactions to you and F-16 when making statements like this, pie.

the one thing I'd have "learned" from you is how important it is to interact and work together with town. which is the exact opposite of what you did re: BRO by handwaving his entire meltdown.

I didn't handwave his meltdown, pie. Read my response to it again. I specifically say that when I read it, it read to me as essentially having two core aspects:
*BROseidon scumreading Rancid and myself,
*And BROseidon melting down about suddenly being scumread.

You're saying "it wasn't like that!". I asked, "Okay, how wasn't it like that?" You never responded. That is how I read it. Simplified. Boiled down. Those were the two core, fundamental aspects of the post where BROseidon melted down. I specifically asked that if there was anything in there that I missed. If my description was inaccurate. For people to describe how, to show me what I missed. I got nothing other than essentially "you heartless bitch" as a response.

You're correct. I didn't pay much attention to it. But that's because the only thing it changed was my read on BROseidon, moving him to town. But the other aspect of the post I simply can't identify with, because I know it to be wrong. And said it to be wrong. This is all right there, in my iso. I boiled down what I saw, and explained why I didn't feel anything about it. But one key factor you're ignoring is that I did make small reach-outs to BROseidon after that. I'm too lazy to iso myself and track them down at the moment, but the effort is there. The townread on him immensely helped. But when he is stubbornly insisting I am scum and even had a meltdown about it, there's literally not a fucking thing I can do to help because he's doing the game equivalent of biting the hand feeding him.

That's one reason why I've mostly given up on reaching out to the Terrible Trio. I'm more than willing to work with you. But the feeling must. MUST. Be mutual, and it's not. F-16 has rejected that. (Admittedly, the earlier times he was justified in having rejected it. Not the later times, though.) You have rejected it since the moment you've been in the game. And DesBRO has rejected it.

When I was hypocritical, I admitted it. When I made mistakes, I owned up to it. Key aspects of offering reach-outs. I owned up to having had been emotional. I owned up to having been arrogant. I owned up on having been wrong. I owned up at having been bossy. I owned up on all that and more, in that effort to bridge the gap and cease hostilities. You're the one who burned the bridge down, though, because you twisted all of that against me.

If I was scum, then continued spamming would be anti-town. And quite bluntly, continued reaching out on deaf ears is slightly anti-town even with both parties being town. But I don't give a damn if it's potentially anti-town, because that rift existing for long-term is so much fucking worse that I'm willing to be a little anti-town short-term in order to stop being anti-town long-term.

I've always had trouble controlling my emotions as town. I've always flaired up. It was one of the reasons I was a VI. It has dragged me down throughout the years. But I'm sick of it. That hostility it has created. And I'm going to put in the effort to handle things like an adult. Civilly. (Well, as civilly as I can while cursing like a sailor. ) Maturely. With no ill will. Because doing otherwise would sabotage the game for the town. And make a game which should be a fucking landslide town victory into an utter trainwreck that scum eat up.

I'm changing the tune of the game. I can't guarantee success. This is a bit of a new thing for me. But I refuse to let this blood feud continue.

[MastinSSK]

Mastin you are self destructing and in denial about it.

I was. I fully admit it. I had been self-destructing.

Now I'm not.

This will take me some time to figure out.

This will take time for me to refine.

But I'm.
Well.

I'm actually feeling like that the me I'm meant to be is coming out.

I can't say how fully I will succeed. Especially since this is so new to me, this rejuvenated life in me. But I will figure it out. No more shouting. No more snarking. Perhaps a little spamming, walling, and aggressiveness. But never in overwhelming amounts. I'm not letting that happen. I realize the words "I'm not letting that happen" often come from someone in denial. But I know my strengths. I know my weaknesses. I know myself. And I feel obligated to make this game not have that hostility. For it to simply have productivity.

Again, these by themselves are just words. I know that. It's one thing to say you mean something and another to actually do it. Which is why I'm still figuring things out. I'm trying to figure out a reach-out to DesBRO. (Coming up empty, though. The only time I did a successful reach-out to BRO was when I had a mason role and 'crumbed it as said reach-out.) I already reached out to Stalin. I reached out to pie and F-16.

I guess I could reach out to you, on the hypothetical scenario where you're town, but again, I'm coming up on empty. (Mainly, admittedly, because I'm coming up on empty on how you could be town. Generally a town-AP is instinctively inclined to be in-tune with me, making reach-outs unnecessary. And even when not, just as I respect a town-AP, a town-AP holds respect for me. Meaning that, well. I don't really have experience reaching out to you getting on my side, since you've done so automatically in the past.)

I have a strong suspicion I won't need to reach out to Kagura, either half. I will likely need a reach-out to Clyton, but my wavering (and, ultimately, waning) scumread there is at least a start, since I think we might be coming to a bit of an understanding of each other, and that said understanding (if legitimate) means he can be town and can be worked with.

I guess I could also reach out to orcinus and PV, in spite of my scumreads on them, but aside from, "Hi, I think you're both scum", I can't really think of anything to discuss (not argue) with them other than that, because while I'm open to being wrong about my read, I don't see how I would be. Oh, I guess I also need to reach out to Red Gyarados, since I'm not sure they're town.

When it comes to Fox/Hound, they're not someone who I so much need to reach out on, so much as they are someone I need to analyze. They're already kinda sorta with me already, and my read on them is continuously changing, but I don't think that interacting with them more directly will help, and that the only way I can get a read on them that sticks is by getting bearings on them via other factors.

And then there's Titan. I suppose I should reach out to Tammy, but basically...I don't think I can do any reach-out to Tammy that Rancid didn't do first.

So my words aren't just words. They have backing. Some already in place. Still figuring out the specifics, though.

[MastinSSK]

about the NKs: there is literally no reason for scum to kill RBD.

If the scumteam included myself, yes. No reason to kill Rancid.

Assume me being town. Also assume Rancid being competent in scumhunting. Let's say he had one or two scum in his sights. He's also known for being charismatic. There's suspicion on him, too, so he's unlikely to be protected by a town PR. Additionally, he is defending against a mislynch.

Shutting down a mislynch. On scum's asses. Charismatic enough to get scum lynched. Mostly townread...but having enough scumreads to make protection unlikely. You literally can't ask for a better combo of reasons to nightkill a player.