Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Legacy (Game Over)

[PeregrineV]

Vote: Kublai Khan

Just had to be done.

I'll read now.

[PeregrineV]

I don't see where Jason town telled. I know nothing about Metal Gear Solid, so snake stuff means nothing. That don't make me town.

@Acomist-Ben kind of summed it up. Get scum to target you through exceptional town play thereby killing them, no act scummy thereby making town roles target you.

@Khan- feel like Ben is more causing discussion than anything else

@rapidcanyon- my thought is you're scum

Vote: Rapidcanyon

[PeregrineV]

Why don't all scum just not act scummy?

I think you're missing the point. Whats to stop scum from claiming PGO in a game?

[PeregrineV]

@ Peregrine I saw you take this same stance regarding the PGO towards Quadz in Otherworld. Did your perspective not change even a little, after the doctor derped and healed Quadz thereby killing himself and almost clearing my partner who had been blocked that night and would have been confirmed scum but for the added kill?

Thing is I'll trade not having scum kill themselves by attempting to kill a PGO over having the doctor kill themselves every time.

I meant to only give my thoughts once more, since the cat can't be stuffed back into the bag, so this is a good question.

I know conventional wisdom is, in the case of miller, to claim, so that the cop doesn't investigate you and get back a scum result.
However, by claiming your role as miller, you are also saying "I will most likely be the target of a cop investigation due to my scummy or anti-town play. In addition, my play will be bad enough to require an investigation of me over all other current players."

If you are going to claim PGO in order to save town PRs, you are claiming that "I will most likely be the most obvious town and the greatest scumhunter the thread has ever seen. This will cause watchers and doctors to want to target me, but I won't be so town as to draw the nightkill or the attention of a scum PR. Or, I will be so scummy that I will cause investigative or town blocking roles to target me causing their death, but I won't be so scummy as to be lynched."

So, as far as Acomist, it's going to be a claim and nothing else.

[PeregrineV]

I see no scum motivation in a PGO claim so early on.

If anything, scum would (for the most part) claim miller for any future guilty result that may be found on them. Not PGO.

As scum, any town PR would be taking a chance to target him, leaving him free to kill or use his scum PR. Would also be an excuse to not be nightkilled.
If he is scum and claims later, after he's already targeted, he could be counterclaimed by a role that's already targeted him and lived.

[PeregrineV]

Don't feel like Yates was role-fishing, but I usually think it has to be pretty blatant before I think someone is guilty of it.

Didn't think zab was all that scummy, but just went back and read the ISO. It's pretty scummy.

@Zab

I've got scumfeel on Ben. KK has made some points on him, he's asked some unnecessary questions, and the earlier noob-defense on me based on a self-vote from RC was just kind of bizarre.

Even if I had self-voted, self-votes are anti-town

, and him going oh, noob, whatever about that was kind of weird.

Based on the bolded, why are you not voting rapidcanyon?

---

Jason can be town, at least until he scums up the thread. And I know what to look for, esp. after Team mafia.

and is it just me, or is there a distinct lack of posting for a game this size?

[PeregrineV]

If you can do that again at some point, don't claim.

If you are one-shot, don't claim that either.

tl;dr: Good shot! Don't claim!

[PeregrineV]

@Jason- I'll give you the hook-up. Here's AV's ISO.

Vote: Jason

Overreaction to Nero, terrible reaction to Zoro.

Eh, replace Zoro with whoever he voted for claiming Snake. Acosmist?

I think it's much

more

concerning that he'd ever think scum would fakeclaim Solid Snake in a Harry Potter themed game in the first place.
Reads to me like he's faking not knowing flavour.

This is my first large theme game, but I have to agree that speculating on PRs and alignment this early is dangerous. Wouldn't this type of discussion be more suited for D2?

Um.

Anyway

Vote: Yates

Cyber if you're lost just sheep me. This is a good vote.

[PeregrineV]

@PV - only speaking when spoken to?

Or spoken about.

Or if something triggers a thought that needs sharing like 226 or 236.

[PeregrineV]

If Jason were scum faking not knowing flavor, I don't think AV would announce that strategy. So I'm putting Jason into the town slot for now.

Also, in a normal amount of posts (more than 4), the "coaching" of Cyber would be dismissed as early game/RVS stuff. The fact that it is 25% of AVs posts, and I doubt AV expected to die, there may be something to the coaching claim.

However, my vote is going elsewhere (see next post).

[PeregrineV]

I'm conflicted on rapidcanyon. I'm getting scumvibes I can't put my finger on but his #160 is a solid post, trying to get into other players' heads. I guess I have to say town but I'll be looking for more posts from him. Interesting that he threw a vote in the same direction I did, and as a bonus he could even elaborate what bothered him about Shahrizai. Neat! Yeah town for now. Ohhh well his pushback on Kublai Khan is bad but he's still town.

I read this as "Rapidcanyon is scummy but not". Classic scum position to defend/bus depending on which way the wind blows.

Going to skip Kise's catch up as well, though I think aiming for Kublai Khan is probably unlikely from scum.

Read this as skipping Kise posts, and that Kise is "unlikely scum because he's aiming for KublaiKhan". I don't get the second part. Kise is town because he's pushing KK? Explain please.

Am I a hypocrite for not wanting to read someone else's catchup post? Going to skip ThAdmiral for now.

Read this as skipped ThAd's posts.

I'm liking Thad. Liking the BloodCovenant vote, liking the resistance to the zab wagon.
Acosmist's That vote makes me go "Buhh????" and BC's Thad vote makes me want to vote him.

Read this as he likes ThAd, the guy whose posts he skipped.

And the snifit BC vote was because BC voted ThAd.

This whole post reeks.

Vote: snifit

[PeregrineV]

7 pages behind and saw a lot of walls. Do I need to read them or can someone summarize them for me.

@snifit- I saw some of your responses. Will check our prior games, since we played before but I don't remember if you were town or scum.

[PeregrineV]

I need to go back and read, because as much as I hate reading walls, there might be something in there.

[PeregrineV]

This page plus Melmond ISO=seems to not be a bad lynch, but on 15 now.

[PeregrineV]

@ThAd- his first 4 posts outside of RVS are nothing. And his quick jump to Cyber wagon near the end of his ISO.

[PeregrineV]

@Zoroaster- I was wondering if you have any scum games you can link to?

[PeregrineV]

Responding to prod. I'll post more later.

I don't want to mention this because I don't always think it's a scumtell, but 33 posts in other games across Thurs/Fri/Sat since this post.

Makes me=not wrong.

Vote: rapidcanyon

[PeregrineV]

I am almost certain AngryPidgeon is scum.

Would that be because he has 6 votes on him, or because he's calling you scum?

[PeregrineV]

That is a loaded question. You present two reasons you think I suspect Angry neither of which are credible or accurate.

I suspect Angry because as I have outlined in 366, his predecessor's scummy actions, his substandard play compared to his town play as I point out later, and his misrepresentation of my meta. Again, "misrepresented meta" is not the same as "he's calling you scum" so here is my question: do you not understand what I am writing or are pretending to not understand so you can continue to justify your vote?

It

was

a loaded question.

It also underlines that you have been actively avoiding the thread since posting 708.

Angry had been discussed ad nauseam since post 366. I don't care too much about him, since he'll be lynched or cleared fairly soon.

I care that you have time to show up when the lamp is rubbed, and instead of scum-hunting, you are defending yourself from your single vote.

[PeregrineV]

@ThAd- 779 was my answer to 774. I was responding to you about Melmond, not talking about you.

[PeregrineV]

I noticed 333 came after about 90 posts and 2 days later. What made you revisit the the AV iso/Cyber thing? And why did you pull up AV's iso without commenting on it until days later?

Peregrine?

Sorry I missed this.

My 238 was a response to Jason's 237, giving the AV ISO in one post. It was only to put it all in one place, I didn't look at it for any possibly additional info.

When I posted the next time I figured I'd look at the AV ISO and post interactions to see if anything could be gleamed at all. I think the only things I got from it was Jason was probably town, and the Cyber thing *could* be coaching because under normal posting it would have been submerged by more information.

[PeregrineV]

Melmond not a good lynch. Please to vote rapidcanyon right now.

[PeregrineV]

Lets policy lynch this fool.

I can't do it alone!

Seriously, if the AP wagon isn't happening I'm going to have to change my vote before losing power.

Come on over and vote rapidcanyon. He's scum.

[PeregrineV]

Melmond is town. I'll not vote him, and suspect everyone on his wagon.

[PeregrineV]

Welcome Mastin!

You scum this game?

[PeregrineV]

PV, I sees you lurking. Thoughts on this? I know you were voting RC yesterday.

No, here but skimming right now. Watching Mastin post but will need time to verify his claims.

[PeregrineV]

Really only a few pages back, but if I'm going to check into all of Mastin's claims, this may take a bit, but will work on this game today.

[PeregrineV]

@Kise (1010)- After 812 from ThAd, I went back through Melmond's ISO and ThAd's ISO looking for mentions of Melmond. He replied to multiple players multiple times about Melmond=town. Usually when I have that strong a read or defend it that strongly it's either from some sort of deduction or from some sort of role. Since it was only day1, I figured ThAd was masons with Melmond.

Spoiler: ThAd posts for thinking Melmond+ThAd masons

- melmond
Melmond looks good to me. Mainly because he comes to a lot of the same conclusions I have (which indicates he is coming from a town perspective), and has explained himself and his thought processes fairly well from the get go. I also like how he isn't afraid of saying that his opinions changed (mainly in regards to zabriel) - I've often found that scum will find a target and then not budge off them unless they have a good reason to do so.

I agree with you on cyber, he doesn't look scummy to me at all and I hate his wagon.

I feel the same way about the melmond wagon tbh.

meh. Memond has a few scummy posts. He'd be a better lynch that Cyber. You have town reads on both AP and Snifit right?

Point them out pls.

What I've been thinking for a while now is that if you're not a PGO, you're a jester. That would make sense to me, because by claiming PGO you're not going to get NK'd and by playing like you are, you could very easily get lynched at some point, it wouldn't be a bad way to play it.

There are so many easier ways to get lynched. Unless he's some kind of "jester activated on day 3" or whatever, but once again it would be soooooooooo much easier to just keep your head down until day 3 and then "slip" scum.

Also I'm pretty sure jesters are only in bastard games these days and I believe that has to be advertised.

Oh and amrun , when looking at cybertronix, please note that avox told cyber to sheep him onto Yates.

Fuck. You're right. (again) That's a super-ballsy move for scum to make.

Hate to pull a zabe and all, but, you know, there could be two scum teams.
For me, however, the avox/cyber interaction doesn't rule out the possibility that they were scum together.

Melmond deserves votes for the jester spec anyhow. Says that Acosmist's flavor makes him probtown. Later says that Acosmist's claim is "plausible". Finally says he has been thinking Aco may be a jester for a while.

But why, and this goes for bc as well, would he go after someone almost universally agreed on to be town (due to his claim)? I think it would be much more likely for scum to take the path of least resistance.

This page plus Melmond ISO=seems to not be a bad lynch, but on 15 now.

This=bullshit unless you give reasons.

2. Why is Cyber a town read?

^^
This, I want this answered. If it's just the point tammy brought up I will be disappointed.

@ThAd- 779 was my answer to 774. I was responding to you about Melmond, not talking about you.

Ah, that makes more a lot more sense.
I can see what you are saying but outside of the start of his iso (the "nothing" posts) and the end of his iso (the jump on cyber, which is debatably scummy based on what alignment cyber actually is) I think there is a fair bit of quality posting in there.

That's a pretty weak town read, if you don't mind my saying so.

I'll be honest I am tearing up a bit, but I think I'll make it.

if cyber lynch is a no go (and I suspect because of the replace-out it will be), I'd prefer to lynch ap over melmond.

1) If you use perfect logic and reasoning as scum, don't you think at some point, it will lead you to your buddies? You can't play perfectly pro-town as scum because you aere playing against your win condition.

I'm sorry but this is just wrong.

Zoro is still scum.

Now this is something I can get behind.

@Admiral. What are your scum reads? I assume that Melmond and I are not based on the wording of your last post.

Melmond no, you could go either way; didn't like your predecessor, I think you are ok but not enough to give me a townread on you. Probably null-leaning scum.
Other then that I would be happy to lynch cyber (obv), zora and probably peregrine. Kise and snift are also there or thereabouts.

I feel like I'm going mad or something. Am I literally the only one that thinks melmond is probably town?

@Mastin-You do realize your 1035 is quoting your own posts. Not really sure how that builds a snifit case when you quote him once.
My own snifit read was strong scum (334) but it went down somewhat with 344 and 358. Not greatly, but when he got one vote day1 and then jumped up to six on day2

Votecount 2.2+

snifit - 6 (Nero Cain, mastin2, Kise, zabriel, ThAdmiral, Benmage)
rapidcanyon - 2 (snifit, AngryPidgeon)
AngryPidgeon - 1 (jasonT1981)
mastin2 - 1 (mykonian)
mykonian - 1 (Yates)
Benmage - 1 (Acosmist)

Not voting - BloodCovenant, PeregrineV, pidgey, Zoroaster,Tammy, Kublai Khan, rapidcanyon

I gotta scratch my head at that.

[PeregrineV]

Nice.

@Papums, can you please delete on of my doubleposts above? Thx!

Done. -pappums rat

[PeregrineV]

This game is hard to follow for me.
Every time I've had a scumread on someone they've replaced out - iai became ap who I now think is town, cyber became mastin who I'm unsure about.
I've got town reads on a bunch of people but other than that I've got no real leads on who I think could be scum. There are people like snift who I wouldn't mind lynching, and zora (who's not posting), and maybe kise at a stretch (he's giving my gut scum feels).

Pere is an interesting one to me though. His recent post about thinking melmond and I were masons is interesting as it indicates he was looking for that sort of thing (i.e. town roles). He doesn't assume I was a scum partner protecting a buddy, or even a scum trying to gain town cred buddying town. I think I would expect more paranoia-infused suspicion from a normal townsperson. I had a look at his play yesterday and he gives a halfhearted attempt to get people off the wagon saying "Melmond not a good lynch. Please to vote rapidcanyon right now" (844), but never really pushes the alternative. And then just before the hammer he states "Melmond is town. I'll not vote him, and suspect everyone on his wagon", which is really far too little far too late as melmond was then hammered within three posts of that.
Considering that he had melmond as a likely scumread earlier in the day it really looks to me like scum trying to get points for defending town, without actually trying to derail the lynch in any real way.

vote: pere

I never catch stuff like that (hints, breadcrumbs, subtle claims), but when I ISOed you looking for Melmond and saw how much you defended your town read on him, I figured you had to be masons.
In all MY games with you, I've never seen you defend a town read that blatantly. And I've seen you bus and buddy before as scum. So, there's no way I think you are trying to gain town cred by calling Melmond town without having a stronger reason than "look at his posts".

[PeregrineV]

Zoro's town thanks to AV.

Not really caught up, but on the page this post came from.

@Mastin- Talk me through how Zoro is town via AV. Thx

[PeregrineV]

Still on page 46 and have work stuff to do, so will catch up in the next few days.

[PeregrineV]

Ok caught up now.

Don't know where to begin, but would rather save Tammy for another day.

@Tammy- I doubt you are town aligned, but you did shoot scum at least once. If you can kill whoever the town votes you to kill, and realize you have to die in the next few days anyway if you're not nightkilled, then I'm for letting you live today. Don't care about the message. Did you share the message or its contents/sender with Nero?

Regarding Tammy nameclaim: Lots of people were calling for it. She gave it. Feedback?

@Acomist- I'm a little confused by your response to Yates calling for you to be the target. Town PGO, knowing that you would kill cop-claimed scum, would seem to be OK with the idea. You're response was much more on the nervous side than I expected. Since you realize you have to be lynched before lylo, why the sudden defensiveness?

@Mastin- You can do your interaction thingie, but the moment you start reaching or not making a whole lot of sense, you'll be scum.

[PeregrineV]

No, neighborhood is night talk only, which leads me to believe scum probably don't have day talk either. I got the message at the start of day.

You might have said already, but is the message from the mod confirming another players role or alignment, or is it merely passing on whatever message the other player wishes passed on?

[PeregrineV]

Yeah you know what Pere, you need to step up your game here.

Why the FUCK would I want to die to kill cop-confirmed scum rather than just LYNCHING cop-confirmed scum?!!?!?!? Why trade when we can just lynch scum??????????? On a pure numbers basis that's retarded. Seriously? What?

Look at your ISO from 1449 onwards.

Seriously, you know that if you are town that unless we knock out all the scum pretty early, you have to die because of your claim WIFOM, right?

And that's some of the reason people are irritated with you late day1 and early day2, because they expect more from a townie in your position.

[PeregrineV]

Seriously, you know that if you are town that unless we knock out all the scum pretty early, you have to die because of your claim WIFOM, right?

And that's some of the reason people are irritated with you late day1 and early day2, because they expect more from a townie in your position.

I'm suddenly ok with a PV lynch.

Does this mean you disagree with one or both of these statements?

[PeregrineV]

Seriously, you know that if you are town that unless we knock out all the scum pretty early, you have to die because of your claim WIFOM, right?

And that's some of the reason people are irritated with you late day1 and early day2, because they expect more from a townie in your position.

I'm suddenly ok with a PV lynch.

Does this mean you disagree with one or both of these statements?

No one has to die because of claim WIFOM. Do you think he is town or do you think he is scum? This PL all millers BS is almost always scum motivated.

You realize that it's a town policy, not a scum policy. And he didn't claim miller. Millers can be gunsmithed, Jailkept, roleblocked, docced, rolecopped, whathaveyou. Aco's current claim precludes use of any of these.

And you are restating several peoples opinions to accomplish what? Im sure Acosmist is well aware that people are frustrated with his lack of participation. I flat out said I'd be willing to vote him for refusing to participate.

He at least appears to be trying today unlike the time frame you mentioned where he was basically saying "Ben is scum, hurrrr vote me"

Yes, at least he's not taunting or voting the cop. Now I'm asking him why he reacted a certain way, and you want to lynch me for it?

So, do you think hes scum or not? The "He has to die for claiming PGO at some point" opinion is horrible.

I don't know yet, that's why I'm asking him to explain his initial reaction, which seemed positive, and it's conversion to the worse reaction of "I don't want to die".
I'll be happy to get into the "PGO must die" argument post-game.

[PeregrineV]

I don't understand why a PGO is also BP apparently ( you are assuming). That doesn't make sense to me.

Isn't that how it works? He kills anyone who targets him?

It depends on the mod and the role.

PGOs kill anyone who targets them.
If that happens first as a repsonse to the targeting, before the effect of the targeter take place, then he would be, in effect, BP.
If the targeting effect affects the PGO, but the targeter also dies, then not BP.

[PeregrineV]

Tamy. Everyone is an unknown. Having everyone or even SOMEONE confirmed in a LyLo is very nice. But how is Acosmist different than a VT claim? If the VT claim isn't confirmed then you have 2 people, 2 claims, neither confirmed. Why does the PGO have to go before LyLo?

Because if he is scum, he has a perfect reason for not dying at night, no matter how scummy.

P-edit: Ive never played with a PGO. Wouldn't that be OP if he could sponge a scum NK, kill the scum and NOT die?

It depends. He wouldn't be able to prove that happened unless a tracker tracked the killing scum over to the PGO and confirmed the next day.

[PeregrineV]

PV, what is your Acosmist read?

I don't know yet, that's why I'm asking him to explain his initial reaction, which seemed positive, and it's conversion to the worse reaction of "I don't want to die".

Not sure on any of the flavor. More focused on his reaction vs his role mechanic.

[PeregrineV]

OOOOHHHHHH! *facepalm* Chalk this up to yet another game wehre I misunderstand something rolewise. *idiot*

Did you just figure out you were the SK?

[PeregrineV]

If Tammy flips scum that isn't SK then I might buy that.

This.

Also, a role cop could also catch an SK. But, for now, no reason not to take Ben at his word.

@Wrath, Esclouta- Thoughts on leashing the "dayvig/SK" and forcing scum to NK her?

[PeregrineV]

A game with no kills on day1 is not a multiball game. A SK that wishes to play to her WC after the town says "kill X or we kill you" will kill X. That's called self-preservation. Tammy-SK odds of victory are actually as close to zero as one can get. The only way that they stay a bit above zero is by following what the town says and hoping for a miracle. An extra lynch with the slight possibility of a miracle SK secret backdoor win sounds like a great deal to me.

This is why the leashing is viable.

[PeregrineV]

We need Tammy acknoledging she will follow the town decisions.

And this. Because as of the bottom of page 71 and all pages before that, Tammy does not acknowledge that town gets to direct her target. If she can't agree to it, she needs to be lynched.
It has to be a majority, just like the lynch. Shooting early or not shooting the designated target = Tammy lynch.

[PeregrineV]

1) Yes, Tammy will say whatever to survive. However she will also do whatever to survive. She's outed, but as SK all she has to do is survive. She will gladly kill and has no target preference. There is no logical reason why she won't play ball, bide her time, and hope an opportunity opens up somehow.
2) DayKill choice will be done the same way as lynches. Majority.
3) Scum can influence the kill, but no more then they can influence a normal lynch. Town gets to double lynch.
4) Only flaw is that she won't target Acosmist, but he's been scummy as fuck, so today is as good as any to remove him from the equation.
5) Of the known roles, Scum have to choose between killing the Cop (who will likely be protected), a known SK, other lesser town roles (Hi, Nero Cain), or an unknown.

I think it's more likely that scum are pushing for the Tammy-lynch to save themselves the trouble of NKing her. I also think you're unwittingly helping them. Your fear of being shot tomorrow is retarded.

[PeregrineV]

Stop guessing the setup peregrine.

Didn't think I was.

Why are you so concerned scum is going to direct the vig but you haven't expressed that concern about them directing the lynch? If we use majority vote we can track who and why people want to vig other players.

Also, we can keep Tammy around for 2 days + one day for every scum she hits.
Town-town-Tammy lynch.
Scum-town-town-Tammy lynch
Town-scum-town-Tammy lynch
Scum-Scum-Scum-Tammy lynch

Of course, adjusted as needed by Ben's results + if we lynch scum that day.

@Ben- Why can't we afford it now? We're at pretty much the same spot as if we lynched scum yesterday. We all know she is going to die eventually, why are you against using her powers as an extra lynch?

[PeregrineV]

On page 76-catching up today

[PeregrineV]

I think Acomist, if town, can improve his play.

Tammy I want to leash for all the reasons given. We follow the cop and use the extra lynch giving us that many more vote counts and interactions, so twice as much info to analyze.

The leashing was offsite: http://community.wizards.com/paranoia/g ... !!!!!?pg=1
I was scum that game and their was no way we were going to let Rag go shooting us for the town.

Vote: pidgey

[PeregrineV]

I like the idea of leashing Tammy a lot. Really. I feel that Double Days is just insane, and anyone trying to argue the opposite is wrong. And I argued for this leashing.

But the fact is... i'm growing more and more wary of Tammy. She isn't playing like a SK that is willing to be leashed then lynched. She didn't wrote anywhere something blunt where she said "i will kill the first people reaching L-1 so you people have full control about my kill". Every one of her posts reads as a SK that is hoping the town won't be able to have a strong enough agreement about how to control her so that she still gets some freedom. This "oh i won't tell you my private info" screams like a trick to stay alive and maintain some control about her destiny. I have made all my previous posts on the assumption that it will be easy to leash her. But with so much disagreement in the town, we will probably not manage to do it correctly.

Pidgey is still scum though.

I think she is an SK with a lyncher wincon, in that if she kills the person/people she needs to, she leaves the game, so she's not too worried about late-game at this point, since she needs to live to find her targets.

And I could be wrong, but if she can vig and be leashed, I'm for it.

[PeregrineV]

Pidgey does seem to be addressing other issues, while WrathChild is not.

Vote: WrathChild

@Kise- Tammy shoot snifit, but that could change depending on night info.

[PeregrineV]

Peregrine is coasting big time and idmreally watch out for him. There is zero Original content out of that slot. Id put him in a be careful group.

Yes. All of my posts are in Korean, and nobody reads them anyway.

[PeregrineV]

Also, the more and more pidgey posts, the more and more I think derptown.
He'd still be a better mislynch than Tammy, but I think he's exactly that--a mislynch.

MoI, on the other hand...

Why is the scum-MoI read currently higher than the scum-AV relational tell you presented in 1227-1228 that made Zoro town?

[PeregrineV]

Hey, PV, what do you think of MoI?

Keep in mind, MoI = Zoro, who if I'm not mistaken, you had some suspicion of.

I think that MoI replacing in 50 pages would have a lot more material to discuss in addition to the current topic of should we lynch Tammy.

I think that town-MoI never gives up an advantage for town, and having a controlled vig/kill-attractor combo is a huge plus for town. And it's purely by luck. If Tammy had claimed the dayvig shot on AV day1, I doubt BenMage would have investigated her, meaning she would have been perceived as town and freer to act than she is now that she's caught.

And I mentioned your response to my suspicion a few posts up. Kind of want to hear how each scumminess (Zoro-MoI) was weighted in your read on that slot.

[PeregrineV]

Acomist scum reads: Anyone that suspects him.

Mastin is intelligible and making sense, so most likely town. Also feel town on Elcouta, mykonian, maybe Yates (yes, still mad).

ISO Mastin today and point out where anything non-MoI is incorrect. Scum want a town dayvig dead all the time. Tammy offering to kill for town means scum want her dead.

Feel like town MoI would agree in a 1v1 with Mastin, while continuning to argue with anyone else about everything. I feel like that is his normal scumhunting style and right now he's phoning it in or faking it.
But, on the off-chance he is town, would prefer to keep him around another day or two, for now.

@Angry- Compare zab this game to Zab here. The play seems not the same, so first inclination is that alignment not the same.

Remember, BC is scum too.

Vote: WrathChild

[PeregrineV]

@Angry- Compare zab this game to Zab here. The play seems not the same, so first inclination is that alignment not the same.

Why so? And you know that I don't do meta cases. Or do you? I don't do meta cases.

And Mastin is not making sense >.>

His MoI push is 90% of what he has been posting and his MoI case is at the least desperate and at the most scum.

Read on Mykonian? Read on Acosmist?

No meta. Fine.

Scum motivation for scum-Mastin to carry on in an attempt to lynch town-MoI when he can focus all his juice on an easier target and just NK MoI. Doctor is obvious non-existent or complete moron.

Mykonian coming across as town, but haven't read his predessor recently.

Acomist could be town if he does any scumhunting. All his scumreads are people calling him scum and/or for his lynch.

[PeregrineV]

Scum motivation for scum-Mastin to carry on in an attempt to lynch town-MoI when he can focus all his juice on an easier target and just NK MoI. Doctor is obvious non-existent or complete moron.

Why would he have killed MoI last night? Think about it. If scum-Mastin had a chance to kill Cop-Benmage there is no way he is picking MoI over Benmage. Save this argument for another day.

So then I take it this means you have an opinion on mastin and MoI. it's either town and town, or town and scum. Without having to back up your answer yet, which is it?

[PeregrineV]

Did you read Post 2238 Peregrine? How exactly does that string of reasoning come across as Town? Please explain in detail how that looks Town to you.

Point 1 – treatment of the Tammy wagon
Myk votes Tammy
Myk unvotes Tammy
Myk thinks if Tammy=town, she should shoot Ben. You compare to being called out for telling Ben not to gambit.
More talk about number of players.

Summary – Mykonian’s actions (not wanting to lynch Tammy today) don’t back up the posts he made surrounding her wagon (that he wants to end the Day on Evens, that he doesn’t believe she can be leashed). That's Cognitive Dissonance which is a strong scum-tell.

Point 2 – Treating me as Town while calling me scum.

Point 1- That is your first instinct. Cop claims guilty, let's lynch guilty. Tammy proving she has dayvig powers, then as town you definitely want a drink of directing that power. Then the arguement, with Tammy claiming town. Myk is right, if Tammy is town, she shoots the player with guilty claim on her.
She didn't, because she's not town, but is not playing the "against-town" mindset because she didn't kill Ben.

You know the difference between a fakeclaim and a gambit, right?

The number of players talk really means nothing to me. I don't worry about endgame at the beginning of the game, since you deal with endgame however it comes up. Manipulating it, or trying to, just seems dumb. And Ben, the cop, convinced Myk that Tammy couldn't be leashed. Not sure why he's scummy for that.

Point 2-That behavior is somewhat normal for town. Now granted, if it's blatant is can be a scumtell. The example you gave is not an example of scum treating town-you like town while calling you scum or pushing your wagon.

[PeregrineV]

I think I might need to go read some more pages, I'm not sure who I want to.be siding with after just reading the last 4.

This post is scummy. Which of course means you are town, because I always think you are scummy and you never are >.>

But why are you thinking about who to side with and not who to vote for?

Because there haven't been any posts in what I just read which at first glance tell me this poster is scum, therefore I'm going to side with someone and sheep their wagon.just need to work out which of the obvtown posts make the best sense.

Read the first 4 pages, pick the scummiest person, then iso them, if they are still scummy, then vote them.

[PeregrineV]

Based on last 5 pages, AngryPigeon wins the scummiest award!!

[PeregrineV]

Based on last 5 pages, AngryPigeon wins the scummiest award!!

Amazingly enough it's been 5 more pages. I'll look over some stuff tonight, but most will have to wait until tomorrow (Monday).

[PeregrineV]

Will be back tonight to read/catchup.

[PeregrineV]

I came back the other day and Esclouta was dead.

I need to go back and see how that happened, and when did Thor replace in?

I'll be back after I look everything over.

[PeregrineV]

@PV: Were you insinuating the cop had a guilty on WC?

This is the second time you asked this, and not sure how it makes any sense.

Day2 BenMage, cop, turned up a guilty on Tammy, who was lynched day2. BenMage, cop, died, night2.

So, in light of the obvious facts, explain your question in great detail, including:

Source- What post did you get this insinuation from?
Interpretation-How did you turn the Source into the question?
Purpose-What is the purpose of asking the question?
Relevance-Your question seems to have either a "yes" or "no" answer. What information would each answer give you?

[PeregrineV]

Except, MoI's meta as town suggests he'd have taken the gamebreakingly powerful strategy. I've seen him as town, and he won't waste an opportunity for one.
He did this game.

I remember only one game with MoI in which an SK surfaced.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... ilit=leash

It was, unfortunately, eaten by Tigers, but here is the ISO of the MoI and the SK.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

And the leash discussion:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/search.php?k ... sf=msgonly

If you have any games that back your quoted statement up, it'll add a lot more weight to it.

[PeregrineV]

Were you or were you not insinuating the cop had a guilty?

Day2 BenMage, cop, turned up a guilty on Tammy, who was lynched day2. BenMage, cop, died, night2.

So, in light of the obvious facts, explain your question in great detail, including:

Source- What post did you get this insinuation from?
Interpretation-How did you turn the Source into the question?
Purpose-What is the purpose of asking the question?
Relevance-Your question seems to have either a "yes" or "no" answer. What information would each answer give you?

What reason here were you voting Wrath?

Following up on Ben's suspicion, plus Wrathchild as town is much more active.

[PeregrineV]

We have been getting some flavor in death messages, so that could actually confirm role. That being said, if the kill is delayed we may not have time to wait for confirmation, which could be part of a tactic by Aco. Either way, I see no reason to object to testing the claim. The flavor for kills does seem to suggest that scum are a mix of villainous characters from the series, as the swallow kill seems to indicate that a magical creature such as Nagini ate one of the townies, and a Metal Gear character performed the electrocution. So far night pattern has been No Kill, Town Cop (Snape) swallowed, Town Doctor (Mei Ling) electrocuted. Interestingly, people have died in ways that seem appropriate to their universe, especially considering that Snape was killed (though not swallowed by) Nagini in the books, who was known to eat her kills. This could be coincidence, but it struck my interest.

Currently I'm willing to vote for MoI. Mastin's recent comments have drawn my attention. Perhaps I have some bias in this, but I am frequently a bad player and tend to trust people who read me as town. I'm not sure about the myk wagon.

VOTE: MoI

Do you want the messenger or Nero to test the claim?
Do you think Nero or the messenger is scum?
If you think MoI is scum, and MoI is currently voting myk, then do you think MoI is scum-voting-town, or scum-bussing-scum?

[PeregrineV]

Again, people have been supporting the plan for one of the two to target Aco. I would strongly encourage it be the messenger, whose role isn't that strong, rather than Nero, whose role is actually quite valuable, given that he and I can talk. (For instance, going into night, I can tell him who the messenger is, so that even if I die with the messenger unclaimed, he can still relay it to the town.)

And the messenger is, in theory, known only to you and Nero.

But, if the messenger agrees, and does so, and dies, does that make Aco town 100%?

[PeregrineV]

Contrarily, if the messenger flips scum then Nero is prob-town for the claim and can just be NK'd immediately.

If the unknown messenger somehow dies and flips scum, then Nero the neighborizor is probably town and can just be nightkilled immediately?

Clarify all of this please.

[PeregrineV]

I've fallen in love with Nero 3012.

[PeregrineV]

The fact remains that a Day Serial Killer is no different from a regular Serial Killer when it comes to leashing in this game. With a scum Roleblocker dead the circumstances are functionally the same for Town. The only difference is a slight timing difference (when does Town get the information on who the Serial Killer shot). With a Day Killer it is instant while with a regular Serial Killer it is at the same time as the Nightkill is disclosed. Town could still (if they were stupid) direct the regular Serial Killer who to target at Night and lynch them the next day if that person wasn’t shot.

You know there is a difference. With a daykill, we can vote, make cases, have a flip, examine those previously made cases and votes, then vote again. The timing of the information and the flip is highly relevant, since it reduces scums ability to plan around it.

It is effectively a double lynch, but has the exact same chance of being affected by scum as the normal lynch does.

[PeregrineV]

PV, why are you not giving me the warm-fuzzies you gave me in NY159?

Funny, I was thinking exactly the same thing.
In this game, you have waves of posts asking questions, but you don't seem to care what the answers might be. And it feels like you are more "ready to wagon the next big thing", which feels different from 159.

I said I don't think

both Nero and the messenger are scum

.

No, but you said if the messenger flips scum, Nero would be prob-town and NKed immeditely.
How would we know who the messenger is?
How would the messenger die?
Why would the messenger flipping scum make Nero prob-town?
Why or why would Nero be nightkilled, esp. if he is only prob-town, and why is this sounding like it's an inducement while also sounding like it's a penalty?

Because that is dumb. Im playing outguess the mod a little, but I think both of those roles being scum roles is highly unlikely.

OK.

And why are you buddying the crap out of Nero's awful post?

Becasue it expresses a lot of my thinking.
Esclouta replaced in and posted a lot of my thinking.
Myk has echoed thoughts I've had this game.
Mastin, arguing with MoI aside, has been posting thoughts I agree with.

Since we don't really share playstyles, then I can conclude they probably share an alignment with me. So even if we disagree on details, I trust they are actually looking for scum.

[PeregrineV]

Re last question: setup spec.

You say you agree with it but you apparently don't agree with ALL of it because you disagree about Mykonian. Id like to know what you liked about specifically; its not exactly a small post.

And Mastin has been posting a whole lot of scummy nonsense this game.

Lol. And accuse me of wagoning 'the next big thing' whilst leaving yourself open to just sheep Nero/Mastin.

Why do you think MoI is scummy?

I'm kind of lost about what you're referring to at the beginning here.

Mastin may be MoI tunnleing ATM, but I think Mastin is town.

Note sure if I sill sheep them just yet. Was thinking about starting a new AngryPidgeon wagon. But, not sure yet.

MoI is giving scumvibes somewhat because of his response to the whole "leash the SK" thing. In Zom Com, there was 6 players with 4 town powers each, and he was working/reworking plans to use all of the claimed powers to catch scum with them, catch scum lying about them, bring killed town back to life, and basically cycle through everybody until town won.

Now, I'm expected to believe that MoI couldn't come up with a plan to use the power of a proven, unblockable, possibly night-kill eating dayvig to press a town advantage?

[PeregrineV]

Now, I'm expected to believe that MoI couldn't come up with a plan to use the power of a proven, unblockable, possibly night-kill eating dayvig to press a town advantage?

We've been talking about getting Acosmist tested for a couple pages. (Ya Im going with Acosmist STD jokes)

I don't see a point to having Acomist tested.
But, if you insist, and Nero claims to be out of shots, and you don't want the messenger to claim, who is going to test Acomist?

Didn't you link a game in which MoI recommended NOT leashing an SK?

I actually linked the only game I recall that had me, MoI and an SK. In that one he acted like it was a foregone conclusion Sinestro would be lynched (which it was), and there would have been no leashing of him at all.
I'm not actually questioning his meta about it, I'm questioning his logic around "bad idea-can't or shouldn't be done".

I did post a link to a game where the SK was leashed and died that night.

That sounds more relevant than MoI using town PRs in a plan in another game. And ya, he does that. He made a huge plan in Switchboard mafia.

They were PRs that had confirmable results, just like Tammy daykilling the town selected target.
Was he scum or town in Switchboard?

And what plan could there possibly be for MoI to come up with. Its either lynch/don't lynch tammy. You are comparing apples to oranges.

Not at all. Tammy would be lynched at some point- everybody knew and admitted to it. The argument was whether or not to use her as a double-lynch effect and a NK magnet.

[PeregrineV]

Ben's suspicion, not yours. got it. At least now you know that meta on WC isn't reliable.

Still wondering how you arrived at Ben having a result, considering the timeline of events.

[PeregrineV]

Becasue it expresses a lot of my thinking.
Esclouta replaced in and posted a lot of my thinking.
Myk has echoed thoughts I've had this game.
Mastin, arguing with MoI aside, has been posting thoughts I agree with.

Since we don't really share playstyles, then I can conclude they probably share an alignment with me. So even if we disagree on details, I trust they are actually looking for scum.

How are these town tells?

They are only towntells if you are town.

Sharing thinking is a worse tell than the 'scum tell' of people talking to their scum reads as if they were town which was happening yesterday.

I think conflicting motivation (trying to appear to be scumhunting and trying to not actually catch scum) is pretty reliable as a scum tell.

I've been town had scum use this to get on my side, I've also been scum and had town use that in their reasoning for why I'm town.
Do you have any other reasons for believing them to share an alignment with you?

True, but I didn't ask leading questions and they provided the answer I wanted to here. They posted either the question I was asking in my head, or made the points I had in my head.
Similar mindset that I wouldn't have as scum is pretty strong for me.

--

on some other topic, MoI's posts aren't helping me want to lynch his scumreads. (though I don't think they've got to a stage where I feel he needs to be lynched today though)

In your own words, who are MoI scumreads?

[PeregrineV]

Then pidgey is suddenly calling for flavour info from Acosmist. 120 pages in and that's what is important to him. Absolutely stunning.

His play has been crap, but if he's town he should just step it up.

I would like to hear the flavor though. If he's town, and he's dead but he's already given us the flavor, at least we'll know the death was through the targeting of Acomist.
If he's scum he'll be held to it.

[PeregrineV]

Votecount 4.5

"That's it, Snake. Hurt me more. Make me feel alive again." -Gray Fox, Metal Gear Solid

zabriel - 3 (Acosmist, MagnaofIllusion, AngryPidgeon)
mykonian - 2 (Kise, pidgey)
MagnaofIllusion - 2 (mastin2, zabriel)
Acosmist - 1 (jasonT1981)
jasonT1981 - 1 (Yates)
pidgey - 1 (mykonian)
Cheery Dog - 1 (Nero Cain)

Not voting - PeregrineV, Kublai Khan, Cheery Dog

Nero Cain, mastin2, PeregrineV, and zabriel are V/LA.
Kublai Khan and pidgey are V/LA until Thursday.

With 14 alive it takes 8 to lynch.

The deadline for Day 4 is 2 AM EST on December 15, 2012.

And this reflects the pain. 8 to lynch in 9 days and we are nowhere. Nobody gives a shit. Apparently.

Zab wagon is one I could live with.
---
MoI I would enjoy as well
not lynching acosmist
Jason is a good baseline lynch.
HELL YEAH PIDGEY LYNCH but isn't going to happen because you are a lazy bunch
cheery? Is he playing?

And while KK is town, everybody else in the not voting catagory can have death as well.

So why is zabriel wagon so slow? Is scum fighting it, or town refusing to get on it? And why MoI?

[PeregrineV]

@Peregrine – Do you think spamming the thread with a bunch of random responses is effectively scum-hunting? What specifically do you love about Nero’s Post 3012? I’d like to know specifically what he wrote that you agree with.

It's easier to list what I disagree with, and why.

Well part of me really wants to vote MKY ‘cause that ELS wagon was defiantly a counter wagon.

I think Myk is town, so not voting him anytime soon.

Please explain why you didn’t Insta-Neighborize Benmage Night 2. “I didn’t want to” isn’t an explanation that supports your play from a Town perspective. Especially given you per mastin can do more than 1 person a Night.

I don't like Ben. This is interesting. Thor's slot was a town doc yet he didn't protect Ben since that's the town thing to do right? So I guess the mod screwed up and Thor is really scum ‘cause he didn’t do “what a townie is supposed to do” I really feel like this “Nero didn’t do what a “townie” should have done” is more likely to come from scum.

Thor replaced in after the night. I think WC, who was in the spot, missed the deadline or never submitted an action.
And possibly neighborizing the cop would be smart, but
1. Claimed cop is going to be targted for the NK, meaning their life expectancy is short, meaning your N-shot has less power Plus, I like to use neighborizer to scumhunt my targets as well as combine ideas. Knowing Ben is cop takes away have of the neighborhood use.
2. If you don't like someone, you're probably not going to create an avenue where you interact with them even more.

I have scum reads on all of MOI, AP and Cherry. It’s very interesting that they are all bunched up together. I did not like Snifit and Cherry hasn’t done anything since joining this game. Note also how Kise spent the early game calling Snifit scum but we haven’t heard a anything from him lately.

I'm still up in the air on you. Usually by the time I have a good read on you, your dead or almost dead. The rest, after catching up the other day and rereading some parts, I agree with.

And my responses aren't random. Why would you think they are?
And as to effectiveness, we'll see about that also.

[PeregrineV]

I see this and wonder what exactly your thought process is Peregrine. Because you linked (poorly since half your links don’t go to what they say they do, but I get what you are going for there) to a game where I explicitly argue against leashing as Serial Killer. And I’ve provide other links to Town MoI specifically arguing against it.

Did you read those links I provided? If so what about Zom-Com makes you think that I would want to leash a Serial Killer here?

No, I didn't read your links. If you say they are

MoI argues against leashing an SK

, then I believe they will be.
1. My point is that Tammy-SK was different. It was out in the open, during the day, confirmable, and controllable. Just like all of our Zombie role claims.
2. Based on that fact alone, where town would lynch, have info, and effect another town-selected lynch between each scum-NK, seems to argue for an increase in town power.
3. If you could plan out 6 players with multiple powers and claimed powers, why should I believe that you are not capable of seeing the benefit of dayvig Tammy-SK and even trying to work up a plan to use her to town's benefit?
4. And the fact that she could draw a NK, BP or not, means another town death prevented.
5. And she would have been lynched if she wasn't NKed, or if she didn't vig the town selected target.

Do you disagree with any of the above statements?

[PeregrineV]

but I need it from you, since you're one of the few voices of strong reason in the town right now.

: /

Calling PV a strong voice? Hes been lurking his ass off. And his recent string of catchup posts sucked. You asked everyone else about why their activity sucked, but not PV?

Strong voice may be a stretch, but what sucks about my catchup posts?

[PeregrineV]

@Mastin- You can have it. Maybe later tonight after the Girl Scout Christmas party, or tomorrow. If I get all quotey, then this weekend.

[PeregrineV]

Traveling for the weekend, and off Monday. May get something in but more will have to come Tuesday.

[PeregrineV]

Back at work, and haven't read anything in days, but here is why Myk is town:

Spoiler: Mykonian's posts re:Tammy

I love you tammy, but you have to go.

vote tammy

unvote

Well, this one is easy to figure out. Tammy gets shot in the face within a day: she wasn't the dayvig. Someone else gets shot: she is!

I think benmage might want to fullclaim before he's shot (so if you are town tammy, please don't act too quickly)

I can bold who I want to vig in thread or email it and it will happen.

Well I guess it is multiball, or I caught the SK... either way Tammy hangs.

Fire away tammy. If you are town you can prove it now. He isn't a gunsmith or something which could explain a possible false guilty.

If you are fakeclaiming... well, I guess benmage doesn't die very quickly then

I love how in 5 minutes we'll have certain scum.

nero, if tammy is town, that's a flat out fakeclaim from ben, and he isn't taking it back in any form. She should shoot that if she's town.

Wait, my mouse battery dies. You want me to shoot Benmage?

Yes. If you are the vig, he must be scum, and visa versa.

Mykonian- But wouldnt town vigs crumb something? You know, in case THEY ARE ABOUT TO BE LYNCHED LIKE RIGHT NOW.
Anyway that's still a fucking dumb reason to want me dead but nice tunneling there brah

Because you don't lynch them. That's kind of the point. If she's scum, she gets shot by the real vig. If she's town, she doesn't get shot.

And I'm perfectly happy to wait for this situation to resolve itself. If I was wrong about benmage, I don't have to tunnel so hard.

It is rather advisable to unvote though. You don't want to lynch a claimed vig, really. If she's scum, she'll get shot. So don't be silly, as you can only mislynch her.

The series of posts quoted show exactly how I thought.

1. Ben claims guilty on Tammy
2. Tammy claims Ben is wrong.

If Tammy is town dayvig, and Ben is wrong, Tammy shoots Ben. It's really that simple. The fact she didn't meant that Tammy was not town.

Myk calling her out to do it is the natural town thought process. We don't know if Ben is lying, Tammy is lying, they are both lying, or they are both telling the truth. So we revert to logic, and what we would do in her spot as a Town dayvig. As town, if someone claimed a guilty on you, and you can shoot them, you do.

When she didn't, the fact she killed AV meant she was probably some form of SK.

Anyone pushing for "Myk said to shoot the cop" is either scum, or needs to find a better argument.

pedit: Not much right now, since I'm supposed to be reconciling 12 months of international eliminations, but it's boring as hell, and I've been trying to post my Myk=town quotes for 2 days.
Why am I the lead wagon?

[PeregrineV]

PeregrineV:

Put simply, I need to know exactly where you stand.

You seem to be agreeing with all the right players, agreeing a lot with me, agreeing a lot with Nero, agreeing with Khan and all that, but...

Where, exactly, do you, yourself, stand on all players?

So yeah, from you I want a list of scumreads. Like with Nero, ordered strongest to weakest, along with reasons why they're scumreads. It can be anything from a sentence to a long paragraph long, but I need it from you, since you're one of the few voices of strong reason in the town right now.

Strongest town:
8. PeregrineV
4. mykonian
6. mastin2
21. Nero Cain

Weaker town:
19. Kublai Khan
16. jasonT1981
9. Amrun pidgey

Not sure reads:
3. zabriel
10. Acosmist
11. MagnaofIllusion

Weak scum:
5. Kise
12. Yates

Strong scum:
14. AngryPidgeon
17. Cheery Dog

[PeregrineV]

I've given reason why I'm still unsure on Acomist and MoI. If they've made any arguments in the last few pages, I haven't read those yet.

Zabriel is just plain null. Unfortunately, this is a good indication of scum a lot of the time.

Kise- Early game was mostly uncomfortable gut. I later got townvibes from some posts, but others seemed to be posted primarily for distraction purposes. Probably the final straw was the Esclouta turnaround from 2117 to 2765, apparently for the reason of "The Esclouta wagon picked up".

Yates-Mostly for the fact that despite his 213 posts, I don't feel like his contribution level matches that of his posting level. His votes have mostly been wagon jumps, when I'm used to hearing original case material from him.

AP- I've given that before. If something changes in when I catch up, I'll update this read.

Cheery Dog- Not sure if I've given why, let me go check.

[PeregrineV]

Cheery Dog- Was never too happy with snifit, as some of his early posts seemed contradictory in nature. Cheery's replacing in, while appreciated, also included the fact that he never read the thread, and has pretty much stated he has no intention to. While following the advice about reading the first few pages, he ignored the actual scumhunting part. How can you catch scum if you don't know what's going on?
You can't.

If any of this has changed, I'll update also.

So, I'm back to page 125, and I'll read from there.

[PeregrineV]

Tunnel vision is not a scumtell.

It allows you to focus all of your game on a single player, to the exclusion of other players, including your sumbuddies. Why would scum not use it when it gives them an out to actual scumhunting?

[PeregrineV]

I had a townread on him for the longest. The first time I thought to reconsider was when

he was telling Tammy in the QT

that jason may be right about me lurking as a scum tactic - I should point out that that same phase, I mentioned scum would be lurking after having their roleblocker daykilled. I didn't begin to "lurk" until the last week or so of day 1. The thing is, I literally spoke to Nero the day before signing up for this game. He asked why I stopped playing mafia and I told him I wouldn't devote enough time to it. But, I popped online the next day, saw he signed up for this and said why not, so I joined. I feel Nero should know I wasn't lurking as a scum thing,

but the way he was playing Tammy in the QT made me pause.

Did I miss something, or are you a part of Nero's neighborhood now? I thought he added Tammy then Thor& Mastin. You're talking like you're reading it.

[PeregrineV]

I suggested that the messenger do it. And the point would be to have a MOD CONFIRMED NK-IMMUNE TOWNIE. WHAT IS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND ABOUT THAT. Or if hes scum then hes scum. Great!

ITs functionally equivalent to a useless PR using their PR as a 1-shot hide on someone. (Except they die if hes town, but same idea). And we are in EVENS so that hide doesnt cost us a lynch if Acosmist is town. Ill take Hider over Neighborizer ANY day.

You suggested the messenger not claim.
You suggested the messenger target Acomist, the claimed PGO.

Based on your two statements, how would we ever know the action took place and/or wasn't interfered with by scum?

For this reason, your previous statement "Messenger shouldn't claim" and current statement "Unclaimed messenger targeting claimed PGO will tell us if PGO is really town" seem HIGHLY CONTRADICTORY.

[PeregrineV]

Angry 3157- You are saying MoI making plans is a personality trait, but angry MoI is a towntell?

Well, I say that making plans to catch scum in-thread is a towntell, especially if they are effective plans with NO DOWNSIDE.
And MoI seemed just as angry about the Tammy-kill-whoever-town-votes as he does about Mykonian.

And MoI always come across as angry. If this is the worst you've seen, read some more of his games.

So, I disagree with your logic, as it doesn't seem logical to me, and your attributing playstyle to be either alignment specific or not (becuase he could be faking it, which means he's not angry, which makes him scum)

Unless he is faking all that shit about being pissed at Mykonian (hes not, and Ive never seen him this mad) then hes obviously town.

[PeregrineV]

P-edit...........Fuck you. Your stance on PV is bad. You are calling him a 'strong town voice' simply because he is drinking you/Nero Koolaid. He posted nothing meaningful almost all of Yesterday and he finally pops in to make a scummy catchup post.

Then I guess you need to respond to 3149 in detail.

what sucks about my catchup posts?

I dont care what his opinions are and whether or not you agree with them. Quoting Nero's wall of random crap and saying "I agree with most but not all of this" is bullshit and posturing.

Good thing I totally cleared it up in 3138.

And PV is scummy as shit. His MoI push is just loosely sheeping your case w/o actually saying it and cluttering the thread with this argument that has already been repeated ad nauseum. Its posturing. And buddying to whichever of you/Nero is town. Hes ignoring my points about Nero/Messenger/Acosmist and just trying to look opinionated on the Acosmist matter.

My "push" on MoI is in the form of questions which I'm sure MoI can answer. I'm sure he appreciates you protecting him from me, but I don't really see why you see the need, or why you feel he needs the portection.

His only serious content today was to argue theory with me. Push MoI for disagreeing with him on theory. And buddy the crap out of you/Nero. If you are town, wake the fuck up. PV is probably not town and hes been coasting like fuck all game. (Same can be said for Zab too, really. But at least Zab isn't actively trying to look like hes doing something.)

Holy shit, now I believe you. So aside from arguing theory(?) with me and protecting MoI from my questions and not reading my posts or caring what I have to say, what have you done today?

[PeregrineV]

PeregrineV - 4 (Cheery Dog, AngryPidgeon, zabriel, Kise)

I'm at the top of 128 here, but seriously?!?

[PeregrineV]

We lose nothing by testing Acosmist. If, and this was at the time a valid assumption, Nero could test the claim (assuming acosmist is town) Nero dies and Acosmist is confirmed. We are at evens and that seems unlikely to change all things considered, so losing Nero does not cost us a lynch. And my read on acosmist is 100% irrelevant if there is still a possibility of him getting lynched as town in the future. Having Nero test Acosmist prevents that town-lynch and does not cost us a lynch. And if Nero is somewhat likely to get lynched down the line anyways, so if he is town it prevents that as well. And if nero or Acosmist is scum, then doing this makes even more sense.

Leashing Tammy would have given us flips without costing us lynches, and instead of testing Acomist PGO claim, why doesn't he just play and we'll determine if he's town from that?

Vote: AngryPidgeon

[PeregrineV]

@Cheery: IIRC I was under pressure in NY 159 when CKD called me on my fake claim and before you cleared me.

That was a different type of pressure, and most of the town were still reading you as town even with your fake guilty. I think you had rofl and ckd voting you before I came out that game.

I agree with this. AP, your play this game is not the same as your NY159.

[PeregrineV]

Jason isn't Town via play. This is his scum meta to a tee. I should know we discussed it in QT both times were were partners in the past (Newbie game and Zach's Large Normal).

It's vastly different from his scum play in Team Mafia (where his play seemed scummy). Do you have the games you were scum with him?

[PeregrineV]

Cool, I ALSO said that Tammy had to be scum because she wouldn't shot Ben. And I wasn't even actively prodding her to do it for town cookies. Go me!

There might be some words missing from this sentence.

You said "Tammy had to be scum because she wouldn't shot Ben."

Can you clear this up?

[PeregrineV]

Alright - I can be convinced to vote for Zab or Nero. I had Nero as Town due to his role claim but there are valid points being raised about his "x-shot" ability suddenly being spent when we have an opportunity to test it. So I'm actually leaning Nero over an admitted POE + OMGUS vote on Zab.

Intent to wagon jump?

C'mon, tell me WHY, in YOUR own words, I should vote for Nero or Zab?

[PeregrineV]

Forcing the messenger to claim right now is good if they are scum. If they are town, the right play would be to trust that they target Acosmist privately and then report back if they live. So, eh. Im all for having the messenger claim and target Acosmist. Not doing so is a scum claim from them.

Do you see where you want Acomist tested (because he might be scum), but are trying to justify anyone NOT agreeing to testing Acomist is scum.
So if they agree and don't do it, they are town and Acomist is town?

[PeregrineV]

Yates:

Why, exactly, is MoI town to you? I want more than just a short description here. I want at least two or three paragraphs, since with how strongly you're advocating it, I expect there to be a reason for that level of conviction.

More than that, I also need a lay of the land from you--a roadmap to who you DO suspect. Most to least, along with a description as to why.

Also, if you have a townread on anyone else in my suspect pool (MoI/Aco/Kise/Cheery Dog), you're going to have to explain that as well.

Also also, why have you been so quiet as of late? You were one of the most verbose players on day two, but like Khan (only moreso), your activity has been dropping with each day. Please remedy that; we need a strong voice like yours in here if we're going to get a scum lynch.

Sorry Nero, there's no way I'm answering your question. I don't like to have all my reads out there for scum to sort through. Feel free to ISO me - it's not something I do anymore.

@Mastin- I know you have Yates=town because something something AV, but the lack of pressure at this response is disconcerting.

[PeregrineV]

His votes have mostly been wagon jumps, when I'm used to hearing original case material from him.

Haven't I been scum in those games?

Alright - I can be convinced to vote for Zab or Nero. I had Nero as Town due to his role claim but there are valid points being raised about his "x-shot" ability suddenly being spent when we have an opportunity to test it. So I'm actually leaning Nero over an admitted POE + OMGUS vote on Zab.

Intent to wagon jump?

Yup. I'm still voting Jason for tactical reasons from when today opened. Of the lynches being discussed that have a chance of going through? I've narrowed it down to Nero and Zab with my preference being Nero. And don't give me that "in your own words" nonsense because I don't need to restate the case beyond what I already posted.

So you saying it's your town play to do nothing? And your lynch preference doesn't mention lynching scum.

I'll have to go look, but I'll guess you were for the Melmond, Tammy, and Esclouta lynches too, huh?

[PeregrineV]

Angry 3157- You are saying MoI making plans is a personality trait, but angry MoI is a towntell?

Yes, dude. I dont see scum-MoI getting this pissed at people for trolling him. Its MUCH more likely to come from town in this case.

PV, you linked a game where MoI didnt want to leash an SK. And are arguing that this situation is different and therefore MoI should want to? What the actual fuck? First of all, its not really that different. Second of all, even if it is how do you know MoI should think differently about it just because you do?

I linked a game that MoI and I were in that had an SK. That's what I said, and that's what it was. It was the extent of my personal knowledge of MoI and SKs.
Yes, this situation is different.
1. This SK kills in the day. That means her kill could be confirmed to be hers, not someone elses.
2. If this SK killed according to votes, which occur during the day and can be tracked and argued, then we have MORE information, determined by town, then we do with a normal SK.
3. If this SK, who is doing the town bidding, is nightkilled, it's OK, we are back to normal mafia, and that's ONE LESS TOWN KILLED BY MAFIA. If this SK was BP, then MAFIA WASTES A SHOT AND THAT'S ONE LESS TOWN KILLED BY MAFIA.
4. The SK in the linked game could gather and use other abilties that coudl screw with night actions. That was the mechanics of the game. This SK is assumed to not be able to do that, since she was already a DAYKILLING SK.
5. SK in the linked game killed scum that hid behind him, but shot town, and knew he was too dangerous to live. This SK shot scum early-game, thereby demonstrating either luck or scumhunting skills, but didn't shoot the town cop, even after he claimed a guilty on her.
6. The other game was multi-scum, this one shows signs of only one scum team.

So, no, really, it is that different.

I'm saying that if MoI can perform complex quantum mathematical formulas, that he sure as hell can solve 2+2.

And MoI always come across as angry

No. Not like this. Determined? Yes. Upset when things dont go his way? Yes. Outright raging and swearing? :/

And this means he is town to you? So I guess he's done it before, huh? So you'll go ahead and link those games where MoI-rage=town and does not equal scum, since that is what you are contending.

My "push" on MoI is in the form of questions which I'm sure MoI can answer.

The point is that Mastin made the EXACT same points and MoI already answered them and then KEPT PRODDING MASTIN TO RESPOND THOSE RESPONSES OVER AND OVER.

Then you can link that, too. Mastin had a million reasons why MoI is scum, so not surprised if he brought this up, but if MoI specifically responded to my questions when answering Mastin, then I'll consider them answered.

Your case is the millionth rehash of the original one. Its the same goddamn case that MoI got upset at and threw back at Mastin. Yours is not different. And given that he is pressing Mastin to respond to his counterpoints OVER AND OVER I don't think MoI gives two fucks about me answering for him.

So my questions went from questions to a push to a case?
Nice transitions on MY QUESTIONS.

protecting MoI from my questions

Questions that he already made counter points to and keeps ramming down Mastin/everyones throat. I can probably find at least 3-4 MoI posts in which he calls Mastin out on DODGING his responses to effectively YOUR exact questions. Im not protecting MoI by any stretch of the word.

OK, I'm from Missouri.

I agree with this. AP, your play this game is not the same as your NY159.

Misrep Cheery's post. Cheery said that the CIRCUMSTANCES of me being under pressure were different, not that I responded differently to pressure.

I was saying the exact thing Mykonian was.. That Tammy would have shot been if she were town. I meant 'shoot' not 'shot' in that quote.

So you were challenging Tammy, who was claiming town, to shoot Ben, who, if Tammy was town, had to be scum?

Like "Yo Tammy, if your Town that pop a cap into BenMage's ass, because he's scum." 3193 seems to disagree, but let me look.
1292 and 1353 state that "Apparently BenMage isn't lying". So you accept him as a town cop.
And you simulatenously, in the same post, agree with Myk:
"Yep, if Tammy is town I don't see why she hasn't shot Ben. 10 points to gryffindor Mykonian."
But later, Myk is scum:
2224
2251
"Anyone who still believes Mykonian wasn't telling Tammy to shoot Cop-Ben is not reading the thread."

So far, Myk is scum, and you are town for agreeing with him, but then he's scum for it, but now you agree with him again, and I'm scum for thinking he's town for it, and I'm scum for buddying [insert name], and Zab is town for buddying you.

Does this sound scummy at all to you?

Do you see where you want Acomist tested (because he might be scum)

No. If Acosmist is town then its still worth it. I keep saying that in the WORST case scenario, its STILL a good play. Prevents 2 MLs, confirms someone that cant be killed. No loss of lynch. And people HAVE been talking about lynching Acosmist (Yates, KK, Mastin) so confirming him as town is not a bad play at ALL. And if he is scum then GREAT.

How so? Assume the messenger targets Acomist and dies at some point in the future. What does that tell you? And how do you confirm exactly the the messenger targeted Acomist?

[PeregrineV]

If I am playing to my scum meta, why isn't MOI pushing it more, rather than the odd comment about past games?

What do you think of AP?

[PeregrineV]

replies to PV off the top of my head.

Re MoI:
Your points against him are pretty much the exact same as Mastins. IDK if you arent reading closely or are too subjective to see that, but from my vantage point that is what I see. "MoI would have leashed Tammy as town because it was a good play for xyz"

And I dont care what constitutes XYZ. You arguing that YOU think leashing Tammy was protown because she is different than a normal SK. Fine. But when you make the assumptions that town-MoI would definitely agree with you on theory and therefore isn't town, that is a fallacy.

Ok, so you are questioning MoI and not making a case. The difference isnt really important. And most of your post is dedicated to tons of bulletpoints about why leashing Tammy was protown. Still means nothing about what town-MoI would do. Even MORE so given that MoI has meta proving he doesnt leash normal SKs which is the closest thing you should have to extrapolate town-MoIs mindset from.

Your points about why Tammy is different are most of your post and irrelevant. You are strawmanning away the real issue that your extrapolation has no base and that MoI already answered this to MAstin a million times anyways. And arguing that your case was not actually a case but just questions is more of that.

VOTE: Peregrine

Re Acosmist: crap I forgot what you said about Acosmist. Umm. Oh, kill flavors dude.. If someone dies and FOXDIE or something remotely similar is the cause of death, then that clears him.. If its something else then w/e. Inb4 you asking why acosmist should be tested if hes probtown.

I said my points are different, and you have yet to show otherwise. Repetition does not = fact.
I make no assumptions about MoI, that's why I'm asking the questions. YOU are making assumptions, though. I wonder how much direct interaction you've had with him this game...

Big difference.

And most of your post is dedicated to tons of bulletpoints about why leashing Tammy was

protown

.

Still means nothing about what town-MoI would do

.

Wrong. If it's pro-town, I don't see why town-MoI would NOT do it.

You said leashing SKs=leashing SKs. I pointed out at least 6 areas where you were wrong, and how this was different. You trying to dismiss the differences does not make them go away.

[PeregrineV]

myk, MoI's V/LA, so his lack of activity is understandable.

How would you feel about a Cheery Dog wagon?

His jumping ship from PV to AP looks opportunistic.

How is it opportunistic since YOU were just voting AP?

[PeregrineV]

I had a townread on him for the longest. The first time I thought to reconsider was when

he was telling Tammy in the QT

that jason may be right about me lurking as a scum tactic - I should point out that that same phase, I mentioned scum would be lurking after having their roleblocker daykilled. I didn't begin to "lurk" until the last week or so of day 1. The thing is, I literally spoke to Nero the day before signing up for this game. He asked why I stopped playing mafia and I told him I wouldn't devote enough time to it. But, I popped online the next day, saw he signed up for this and said why not, so I joined. I feel Nero should know I wasn't lurking as a scum thing,

but the way he was playing Tammy in the QT made me pause.

Did I miss something, or are you a part of Nero's neighborhood now? I thought he added Tammy then Thor& Mastin. You're talking like you're reading it.

I haven't read their QT but I am reading this thread.

Where in the thread does Nero say what he told Tammy in their QT?
Not only that, but where in the thread does Nero say something that shows he is "PLAYING TAMMY IN THE QT?"

[PeregrineV]

And PV, I was on AP before his wagon was the new hot thing. (If memory serves, was the second voter.) And I did so 'cause I had nothing better.
Cheery Dog's AP vote, however, looks opportunistic-as-hell.

But you should be voting AP because you think he is scum.
Holding this as true,
the fact that Cheery Dog votes AP, whom he also thinks is scum, cannot be opportunistic.

So, still not getting it.

Why is his claim a town-tell?

[PeregrineV]

I said my points are different, and you have yet to show otherwise. Repetition does not = fact.

Lol No I dont. Now I have to defend MoI? Your case/questions are not unique. Its the same old "Anyone not wanting to leash Tammy is scum, MoI knows better! It was a good idea because of XYZ"! And the XYZ does not matter at all even if you actually provided an XYZ and mastin didn't. In HINDSIGHT it was probably a good idea.

And MoI even has provided meta to show that he would act this way as town and has been vocal as fuck about shoving it down Mastin's throat. Because he believes that is good policy. ITs not alignment indicative and that is obvious as hell.

You are either incredibly arrogant or scum. I cannot bring myself to believe that you expect MoI to reach the same conclusions you do here about good policy and that he is scum for not.

P-edit: Why does MAstin's vote affect Cheery's at all?

P-Pedit: Look at this smokescreen. Kise, vote PV.

No, you are defending him when I'm asking for an explanation about his behavior. I've pointed out that town-MoI is capable of planning with complex variable interactions, so his refusal to use a fairly simplistic interaction is puzzling.
I've never seen any "policies" put forth by MoI. Since a good player adapts to seize advantages when they can, and I consider MoI to be at least that caliber, then I expect town-MoI to seize the advantage when it presents itself.

Spoiler: For example

Finally started. I see the passing discussion has already started and we have input on it. Good. We still are going to do so because it brings information to Town that can be analyzed long term.

I very much doubt scum have an ability that eliminates the death clause in passing to a Partner. That would border on bastard modding. Also in Cyclical X01 the only player with any abilities other than a Factional Nightkill that was not cyclical was the Serial Killer. I can’t see scum having a non-cyclical power based on the set-up experience I have with Kunkstar’s game.

Much more likely we probably are facing two smaller Mafia factions as opposed to a single Mafia this game. It reduces PoE possibilies. That said the passing mechanic is too useful for Town to not do it.

Also we are not going to claim all Powers at the outset. No reason to until later in the game. Abilities can be reconstructed through the passing chain later. There may be exceptions to this (Treestump is one form the first game as it is a perfect Mafia test tool) but we will deal with those as the day goes on.

Official Passing Strategy –

The Cyclic Claim process is a two step process.

Step 1 - The Day after you cycle a power at Night in your first post of the day you claim to have passed a power. You do NOT claim the Power or who you passed it to.

Step 2 - The second Day after you cycle a power at Night in your first post of the day you claim who you passed the power in Step 1 to. In the case of possessing multiple powers you claim every person you passed the to. You do NOT claim what the power was.

This process is ongoing and can result in multiple claims in any given day. For example -

Day 2 everyone claims if they passed a power Night 1.
Day 3 everyone claims who they passed their power to Night 1 and if they passed a power Night 2.
Day 4 everyone claims who they passed their power to Night 2 and if they passed a power Night 3.
And so forth.

Spoiler: And another

So here's what I suggest happen .... feel free to tell me to take a long walk off a short pier if you aren't Seraphim

1. We lynch Seraphim.
2. Sleepy has already claimed a Twilight resurrect on Peregrine. If it doesn't happen Ethos shoots him overnight as he is a Vampire and the Non-human kill should affect him.
3. Chrono flips Seraphim overnight.

If Seraphim isn't the last scum not sure who is. Hell, once Sera and Sleepy (my other strong PoE candidate) are dead I will not fight my own lynch at all since that means that I've got some unknown error in my Clearing assumptions and I am probably never going to be able to find it.

Either way, he's here and can respond how he wants.

[PeregrineV]

Like hell I do. My vote was weak when I made it and I said as much. AP's posting has been such that he's once more managed to swing to the positive side of null.

Then it seems you should be arguing with Cheery about his vote and why he made it.

[PeregrineV]

I don't know if I'm allowed to comment on the failed rush on me, but when a lynch doesn't go through, I tend to think that it means that scum was already piled on rather than waiting to jump on. Regardless of what anybody thinks of me, what does everybody think of Yates not being on my wagon at the end of yesterday, but eager to restart it today?

Pidgey, you have town on Yates because of AV. Would you mind going back over that and telling us what you think makes Yates seem more town?

Why would you not be allowed to comment? And not only comment, but here's the wagon, who's scum and who's town on it?

zabriel - 7 (MagnaofIllusion, jasonT1981,

Cheery Dog

, Kise, Acosmist, pidgey, AngryPidgeon)
Yates - 3 (mastin2, zabriel, mykonian)
AngryPidgeon - 3 (Kublai Khan, Nero Cain, PeregrineV)
jasonT1981 - 1 (Yates)

[PeregrineV]

If I was the messenger, I did not target Aco

[PeregrineV]

And also, reviewing VCA; I compiled every votecount in my personal quicktopic for reference even when I'm away from the site.

I would like you to link to this, and then, if you wish to keep ongoing thoughts personal, start a new personal QT for this game.

Since this is not a game related QT, I don't think it breaks any rules.

For example, here's one where I am/was trying to see how much scum are on my day1 lynch wagons.

http://preview.quicktopic.com/46/H/S9tumbqLqxVA7

So, your link to your "old" personal QT for this game would be most excellent!

[PeregrineV]

Re Messenger: I already claimed that the messenger targeted me last night..

Did the message include why they didn't target Acomist? I think we argued pretty hard about this yesterday, and if your thoughts on why they did or didn't target him have changed any. And if they have changed, then why?

[PeregrineV]

PV, I compiled every votecount.

I've not yet analyzed it. The VCs are there, the A is to come later.

'Sides, as a general rule, I never link to a QT I've made 'til either the game's over or I'm dead. I mean, yeah, it's just my notes, but depending on how strict or loose the mod is, me posting it could theoretically be considered a violation of Rules 1 and 2. Especially since I copy-pasted the messages from the messenger word-for-word into said QT, for much the same reason; reference when I have no MS.net access.

I can paraphrase my QT, just like I can paraphrase the neighbor QT, but I don't link to it.

I doubt it. No matter your alignment, a link to notes you made has no bearing on the game.

How many messages did you receive from the messenger? I thought it was n1 Tammy, n2 Nero, n3 You, n4 Angry.

Since it should be a single message, I think you can delete it. Anything else you quoted from the thread is already in the thread.

[PeregrineV]

There is no wiki on the messenger role.

As a town role it is kind of pointless. Which makes it a good town role, since while technically a non-vanilla role, it's not useful for scumhunting. We've had 3 strong power roles die already, so some useless town roles should be expected.

As a scum role, it's kind of pointless, except to create WIFOM. As a scum role, it seems wiser to not use it at all.

@Myk- why did you not target Acomist to test his claim?

[PeregrineV]

PV - AP and Aco are town. If no scum are off my wagon that would be the rest of the team I think. Off my wagon I'm fairly certain that Nero and Mastin are town. I'm wavering on the rest. I'm willing to vote for either MoI or Yates today. I'm not really sure I understand the case for scum-messenger. What am I missing?

I explained above-hope that helps.

Prior to an actual counterwagon to you springing up, can you please vote for who you think it scum, so we can have it on record?

[PeregrineV]

Votecount 4.15 (Final VC of Day 4)

"It's all so fucking hysterical!" -Laughing Octopus, Metal Gear Solid 4

zabriel - 7 (MagnaofIllusion, jasonT1981,

Cheery Dog

, Kise, Acosmist, pidgey, AngryPidgeon)
Yates - 3 (mastin2, zabriel, mykonian)
AngryPidgeon - 3 (Kublai Khan, Nero Cain, PeregrineV)
jasonT1981 - 1 (Yates)

Not voting -

With 14 alive it took 8 to lynch.

A no lynch has occured.

Night 4 begins now. Please have all night actions to me by 3 AM EST on December 17, 2012 or they will not count.

I am invoking Rule 14 and will be shortening Day lengths from 2 weeks to 10 days beginning tomorrow (Day 5).

Votecount 5.2

"Why do they have to travel in packs? And how are you supposed to get one on their own to ask them?" -Harry Potter
"Blimey, Harry. You've slayed dragons. If you can't get a date, who can?" -Ron Weasley
"I think I'd take the dragon now." -Harry, Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire

zabriel - 5 (Yates, MagnaofIllusion, Kise, jasonT1981, mykonian)
Yates - 2 (AngryPidgeon, Acosmist)
MagnaofIllusion - 2 (Nero Cain, zabriel)
Kublai Khan - 1 (mastin2)

Not voting - PeregrineV, pidgey, Kublai Khan

Nero Cain, zabriel and Kise are V/LA.
MagnaofIllusion and mastin2 are V/LA until Monday.

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

The deadline for Day 5 is 7 PM EST on December 26, 2012.

So, my current feeling is to vote for Zab just to avoid the no-lynch that happened yesterday. If I were on near the deadline I would have voted him, but I was traveling instead.

But, before I do, want to see why he is at 5 now (6 with me), but made 7 yesterday when 8 was needed.

@Yates- Jason yesterday, but Zab today. Why?

@Acomist- same for you. Yates today, why not zab again?

@pidgey- what made zab go from scum to town today?

@Mykonian- Yates yesterday but zab today? Why?

AP has indicated willingness to vote/hammer so I'll count him as on there.

[PeregrineV]

One of the people you didn't ask me about includes KK. KK is also a question to me. I want to think he's Town but every once in a while I get the feeling he's pulling the wool over my eyes. Ditto for PV who is almost like an afterthought in this game. I have royally screwed PV in the past as scum so he should know scum Yates by now. I'm not sure why he wasn't more vocal about a Yates wagon in either direction yesterday, though I like where his head is at with AP.

Then I would be forced to take low-activity-Yates as town. I don't feel dumb enough to do that yet, so I want more from you. You said you were busy RL, so am waiting until you are not so busy.

Re: Zab- OK

[PeregrineV]

Like to hear from Aco and Myk before the hammer.

And one other thing.

[PeregrineV]

And one other thing.

Nevermind, different game.

[PeregrineV]

alright lets fire this party up...

I am essentially a VT... however, my role is actually town ghost.

IF I am lynched, well I am already dead..... I will just come back tomorrow, as confirmed town narrowing the scum suspects

Only way I can 'depart' the game is if Scum kill me in the night.

Which character is that? And why not lynch you to have you confirmed towning up the thread?

And why claim with 2 votes when you can see how your wagon develops first?

[PeregrineV]

Which character is that?

NM, found Myrtle claim.

You can still answer the rest.

[PeregrineV]

6 minutes until the end of the world.

Vote: Zab

You scum?