DEFCON Mafia 2.0 - Over, American Victory!
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Toogeloo Jack of All Trades
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Toogeloo Jack of All Trades
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Toogeloo Jack of All Trades
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Toogeloo Jack of All Trades
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Toogeloo Jack of All Trades
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Fate and I know each other from another site where we played Mafia. My tag there is "BakusaiTenketsu" (as you can see, I like my Ranma stuff), but everyone calls me Baku for short.Jed Cooper wrote:Who is Baku? And why do you want them to be town O_o
SpyreX, Katsuki, danakillsu, gandalf, and Fate were all in that game with me where I was scum and they were all town. I won and they are probably still rubbing their bums a bit over the whooping.-
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Toogeloo Jack of All Trades
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Toogeloo Jack of All Trades
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Toogeloo Jack of All Trades
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I've watched both. I prefer dubbed simply because I am a multi-tasker and my Japanese is quite limited to survival only.Baby Spice wrote:
Ok, most important question of the game time.Toogeloo wrote: (as you can see, I like my Ranma stuff), but everyone calls me Baku for short.
Sub titled or dubbed?
/Confirmation by the way-
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Toogeloo Jack of All Trades
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Toogeloo Jack of All Trades
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Well, you can't launch Nukes until we are in DEFCON 1... I think. But yeah, there are quite a few roles we want to make sure town get.
Americans will really want to prioritze the following (in my opinion):
-Aircraft Carrieris huge for Americans if we can get it. It's essentially ROLEBLOCKER, and would be a huge boon to us.
-Battleshipis the DOCTOR of the game, and it stops nukes, so keeping it out of scum hands would be nice.
-Submarinewould allow them to nuke any one without fear of exposing themselves once we get to DEFCON 1.
-Fallout Shelterwould make it so the only kills they worry about are the other scum team night kills, meaning Americans can't nuke them.
These aren't as necessary, but can still be a detriment in scum hands. The problem with these is the limited use Americans get from them:
-Fighteris ROLE COP, it would give them an easier time identifying key power roles.
-Espionageis essentially COP. If scum gets the role, then they can just look for the opposing faction members with it.
-Radaris like TRACKER, but Scum Night Kills are untrackable, so it's only use is to detect people with Offensive Troops.
-Fail Safeis similar to BOMB, and scum would rarely like to trade 1 for 1, but a kill is still a kill. Americans are more likely to lose two town members I would bet.
These are powers Americans will really only make use of, and scum will likely not put them as priority at all, so we should probably make them low priority as well:
-Eavesdropwould only be used by scum to hear the other scum team or prevent a player from hearing their day talk.
-Air Basewould only stop a kill from the opposing scum team.
This is just how I interpret the abilities, so if anyone disagrees with me, feel free to state your opinions.-
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Toogeloo Jack of All Trades
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Scanning roles are bad for Americans unless you have a read on specific alignments, or plan to try and trap a player based on your scan.
-Fighter only tells you if the player has a Silo, Offense, or Defense. Players can be of any alignment and have these, so you would need to hold your info in hopes that you catch a player lying. But even then, that can backfire (like if the American with Submarine or Aircraft Carrier claims Silo to avoid outing himself). Taking this would be simply to deny scum from using it.
-Radar is similar to Fighter in that it doesn't give you alignment if you track someone to another player, and worse still, you cannot track the scum night kills, so you only get to identify (possibly trap) offensive power roles. Taking this would be simply to deny Scum from using it.
-Espionage is the only strong scanner of the 3 scanning roles in the game in my opinion. The problem for Americans using it is the "choose a faction" rule. We could target scum and scan them, but choose the wrong faction and get the scan wrong all together. Scum would only ever use it to scan for the opposite scum faction, so I don't think it would be high priority for them either. An American could double scan (2 night actions) the same player to know for sure their alignment though...-
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Toogeloo Jack of All Trades
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Toogeloo Jack of All Trades
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Toogeloo Jack of All Trades
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Toogeloo Jack of All Trades
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VasudeVa wrote:Are you serious? This ability is basically Bulletproof/Godfather ie. a SCARY ability for scum. It'spracticallymade for scum.
You are right, I misread it to kills only, but being untargetable except by nukes is a pretty big advantage for a scum member to have. I switch this up to the other 4 top priority abilities for Americans to get.AlmasterGM wrote:Air Base:Capable of deploying a wide variety of response aircraft within seconds and fortified to the brink, any infrastructure surrounding the air base becomes incredibly difficult to penetrate. {You are immune to all non-nuclear activated abilities(this includes the Stealth Bomber).}-
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Toogeloo Jack of All Trades
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Toogeloo Jack of All Trades
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It's all WIFOM anyways. Defcon 5 is funny like that >_>.AurorusVox wrote:Claiming that you're looking forwards to your nuke is like claiming VT* at this stage. I reckon it's a good idea to not go around telling the scum whether we're looking to get a different PR or not.
*I understand nukers aren't VTs, but in terms of defaults...new basic line, you get my drift-
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Toogeloo Jack of All Trades
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We really shouldn't pick anyone to do anything. It should be trusted (and hoped upon) that everyone spreads out the choices. There are 10 total non-silo abilities, and I would extremely surprised if all the players chose the same ability for their first pick.Kitoari wrote:We should pick someone by consensus who we believe is town to have them take one of the obviously pro-scum abilities.
This is where WIFOM is actually useful. Implying what we plan to take and what we actually take is important in making sure the abilities get spread a bit. I doubt that all the best abilities are going all go to Americans, but at the same time, we can't encourage everyone to simply focus on a couple of them as the scum teams can stack up on the others to increase their odds of getting it.
Let's say for example that the two most discussed abilities, Submarine and Air Base, get split amongst 4 town each because we try to work it out that way. Well, not only do the scum players know that it's likely the roles are on those 4 players, but they can also stack their 3 members all on Battleship or Aircraft Carrier. Then we got 4 town and no scum on one ability, 4 town and no scum on another ability, and like 2 town and 3 scum on another ability, giving the odds to the scum that they will get that third role.
This also strikes me that it is more than plausible that all scum are going to stack identically for best chances at getting at least 1 or 2 abilities they want. So even if we stack 4 town on Submarine, they could stack all 3 scum on Submarine as well and get almost a 50% chance that one of their members will get it.
So in the end, it's best not to try and direct anything. Know what is important and every person personally hedges their bets where they hope to stop scum or play on their own accord. Directing anything will simply give scum more information than we want to afford them.
I would highly recommend all Americans to at least try to take an ability instead of a Silo though, as every American that can potentially stop a scum PR is better than less players trying to do so.-
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Toogeloo Jack of All Trades
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Fate wrote:Hmmm I see the merits now with the whole "SET UP ZE DEFENSES" aspect that I didn't think of.
There are two of each role though, max, right?
Toog'
s posts with the 4s and the 3s and the piling made my head hurt >_>
Scum piling ensures greater odds of getting the role they want. If a 3 man scum team piles onto Sub, there is a semi-decent likelihood they will get it for someone on their team, amplified dramatically by how few Americans take sub first. This is only an example, and they may pile on to Air Base or Aircraft Carrier for all we know. That's why I was stating we should make sure all Americans at least try to put in for one of the better abilities, but not focus on discussing dispersion as to help WIFOM which skills are better or worse to pile onto. With luck, Americans will take most of the high priority roles.AlmasterGM wrote:Onlyoneinstance of each activated and passive abilities exists. If multiple players desire the same ability, a randomization system will be used to distribute it. It ishighlyrecommended that you send a list of multiple choices ranked by preference in case you do not receive your first choice. If you do not send me a preference by the time DEFCON 3 begins (either because you sent me nothing OR you sent only a single activated ability choice and you did not win it), a missile silo will automatically be deployed for you-
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Toogeloo Jack of All Trades
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Toogeloo Jack of All Trades
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Toogeloo Jack of All Trades
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Toogeloo Jack of All Trades
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Toogeloo Jack of All Trades
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Townie... just a vibe I'm getting. Never played with the guy, so I could be wrong and giving him more credit than he deserves, but it just doesn't come off as logical scum play.Jed Cooper wrote:
You mean IS is townie to you or you like him as scum?Toogeloo wrote:I must be one of the few people who actually likes IS atm btw. Play the crazy redneck card and possibly some WIFOM while you're at it.-
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Toogeloo Jack of All Trades
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Jed Cooper wrote:Toogeloo wrote:Radar is similar to Fighter in that it doesn't give you alignment if you track someone to another player, and worse still, you cannot track the scum night killsMOD: Is this true?
-----AlmasterGM wrote:Radar:The night may be dark, but your radar screen is neon green. And it’s hard to miss stuff flashing in neon green. {I will inform you of who target player targets, if anyone.Note: The Stealth Bomber is a shared activated ability and cannot be detected.}
So what you are saying is that we will treat every nuke that isn't sanctioned as if it were fail safed?Jed Cooper wrote:That won't stop the rope tho. Its called Mafia and if you refuse to have the town guide ur vig, then u r one.-
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Toogeloo Jack of All Trades
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On the nuke subject, I don't find sanctioning our nukes as very productive. You wouldn't direct a Vigilante on who to kill every night would you?
I do love the "scum-hunting" that is going on btw. This is quite possibly the easiest phase to feign town since there is no consequence, and everyone is jumping all over the one person who sticks out like a sore thumb.-
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Toogeloo Jack of All Trades
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How does someone following a town direction to kill prove alignment? If they are scum and town majority wants another town dead, did he just confirm himself when he shot the guy? Leaving individual kills to group consensus opens the avenue of allowing that kill to be manipulated by the informed minority. A little persuasion here, a little charisma there, next thing you know, you've got a vig controlled by the mafia.-
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Toogeloo Jack of All Trades
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It sounds like you want to set up a chain. Town convinces a nuke to shoot another town, someone on the decision must have been scum, so we shoot/lynch him. Playing Mafia isn't that cut and dry, and town loses more games because they follow that mentality. You also have to consider the smarter players are going to be shot by scum by the time we get to DEFCON 1 to use nukes. Then you got a couple VIs running around shooting townies because scum told them to do so. Or you got a scum who acts very pro-town and shoots a town because the town told him to, and then he can easily place blame on another townie.
In my last game, I was viewed as pro-town even though I was scum, and I was able to manipulate players into lynching whomever I wanted in the waning days, and I was just one person. You get a scum team on the same page with a bunch of VIs, and you can get townies to start nuking each other at their discretion.
We are going to have rebels this game, and you can't control them either. A few players have already stated as much that they aren't going to be directed, so you have to trust they will make the right decision for town's benefit. Directing any form of town power is just as dangerous and could cause the player with the actual power to second guess their own reads and cause even more chaos than just letting a player control their own destiny.-
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Toogeloo Jack of All Trades
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The person who launched the nuke can be held responsible, then we question them on why they chose their target and condemn if needed. Only 1 nuke in the entire game is hidden, everyone else will have to declare their nuke. It's not as if the "paper trail" disappears entirely.
Also, the town grain seems to be split in half if you look at the players for and against claiming.-
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Toogeloo Jack of All Trades
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EBWOP: ended that sentence a little prematurely....Toogeloo wrote:Also, the town grain seems to be split in half if you look at the players for and against claiming.
The town grain seems to be split in half if you look at the players for and against claimingand directing [or being directed] town nukes.-
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Toogeloo Jack of All Trades
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Toogeloo Jack of All Trades
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You gotta remember SpyreX, this COP works a bit different. You must name a faction not your own and the mod will tell you if your target is that faction or not.
In Town hands, we cannot scan for other Americans, we must choose Chinese or Russian. Well, if you scan a Chinese scum and ask if he's Russian, the mod is going to say he is not Russian. Now where do you go from there? Do you scan the same player again on the next night and ask if he's Chinese? What if there is a particularly scummy-acting player that is American, would you waste two scans to ensure you know his alignment?-
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Toogeloo Jack of All Trades
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danakillsu wrote:This thread so far makes me want to cry long and hard. Unlike the rest of you, I am willing to admit that this isn't going to go anywhere until DEFCON 4, and furthermore, I am willing to say that I will not even attempt to analyze this thread until DEFCON 4. So see you guys then.
I do agree with you on the scum hunting thing myself dana, I just didn't say it as blatantly as you did lol. Still, I enjoy the conversation, since the more people talk, the more you have to use down the road. While this may not be the best phase of the game to scum hunt, you would be stupid to ignore it once we do get into the meat of the game.Toogeloo wrote:I do love the "scum-hunting" that is going on btw. This is quite possibly the easiest phase to feign town since there is no consequence, and everyone is jumping all over the one person who sticks out like a sore thumb.-
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Toogeloo Jack of All Trades
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We will need one team entirely dead to ensure future scans as accurate with the role. It would be useful in end game, sure, but there can be a lot of wasted potential early game.SpyreX wrote:ARGH HULK SMASH
I'm fully aware of how it works. Even limited information (that sure as hell has the chance to become total information) is a good thing. A real good thing.
Especially once bodies start hitting the floor.-
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Toogeloo Jack of All Trades
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If it helps, I have at least one strong town read already (note: it's not IS, but I do like him as probable town). I'm not ignoring the hunt, just not pressuring it yet.Fate wrote:
Scumhunting is one thing.Toogeloo wrote: I do agree with you on the scum hunting thing myself dana, I just didn't say it as blatantly as you did lol. Still, I enjoy the conversation, since the more people talk, the more you have to use down the road. While this may not be the best phase of the game to scum hunt, you would be stupid to ignore it once we do get into the meat of the game.
Townhunting is another thing.
PARTICIPATING IN A FUCKING GAME is another thing.
BUILDING EARLY READS AND STANCES AND HISTORY is quite another thing.
"Yo I'm not gonna take any stances so my options are as wide as the great wall of goddamn China" <- that's fuckin tech.
SO DONT go agreeing with scum there Baku.-
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Toogeloo Jack of All Trades
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Well, I never stated the cop is bad >_> ... I just stated I could see less use from it than half the other roles, and that it could still be detrimental to let scum get it. It was (and still is) my opinion that it fell in the lesser of the 5 abilities we want to keep from scum's hands. If you want Cop, go for it bud ^_^.SpyreX wrote:I can't believe I'm having to argue thisssssssss. GOD
Yes, a bevy of investigations is more powerful late game.
That can't happen unless WE HAVE THE COP TO GET THERE.
Jesus if the cop forces one good lynch or stops one key bad lynch its worth it.-
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Toogeloo Jack of All Trades
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http://media.bigoo.ws/content/gif/bears/bears_193.gifFate wrote: Plus I like eating bamboo and keeping shit out of scums hands more than getting cool gadgets for town
nom nom nom nom nom nom...-
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Toogeloo Jack of All Trades
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We can agree to disagree I suppose. Coming from a VT standpoint, I would much rather use my intuition than rely/hope for scum scans. If we get a condemning scan, cool beans, but gut and intuition rules my game play a bit more. I always assume worst case scenario that town is fudged and we either have no power or VIs have our best powers.SpyreX wrote:"Getting useful roles" > "Stopping scum from BP/RB"-
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Toogeloo Jack of All Trades
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If we get Cop, awesome. Chances are we will because no scum is going to prioritize it anyways unless they really want to know who the other scum team is or deny us from getting it.
I'm saying it's low priority for us as well. There are other things I would rather deny the scum teams first, and they are going to want them as well. Cop is going to be one of those lesser contested roles I think, and it probably should remain that way.-
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Toogeloo Jack of All Trades
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Paranoid about what?SpyreX wrote:This isn't a "welp, opinion" kind of discussion I'm having right now. The more I look at your list the more paranoid I actually get. Especially when I look at your rationales.
Do you have reason to state that Cop should be prioritized over highly prized scum roles? It will take minimal effort to get Espionage, Eavesdrop, Fail Safe, and probably Fighter for Americans. Scum are not going to covet these roles.
Make your priority list include them, but I would highly discourage putting them at the first position.
Scum will want protection roles first and foremost, and an undetectable day kill.
For the last time, I am not stating "don't put cop on your list." I am simply stating, put it lower tier than Doc, Roleblock, BP, Untargetable, and Assassin.
If you want to be Cop, go for it... do something like:
Submarine
Air Base
Espionage
Radar
Fighter
Silo
...as your priority. Put some contention into the more coveted abilities. Almost assuredly, if you don't get Sub or Air Base, you will get a scanning role.-
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Toogeloo Jack of All Trades
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Just look at my last post, I sum up my opinion pretty well there.Bunnylover wrote:
Can you re-post your list of what Town should get before Scum does.Toogeloo wrote:If we get Cop, awesome. Chances are we will because no scum is going to prioritize it anyways unless they really want to know who the other scum team is or deny us from getting it.
I'm saying it's low priority for us as well. There are other things I would rather deny the scum teams first, and they are going to want them as well. Cop is going to be one of those lesser contested roles I think, and it probably should remain that way.
I would ISO you, but I'm more then sure your iso contains about 12 pages already ._.-
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Think about what I am doing for a moment Fate, then look back at my other comments. I'm sure it will click.Fate wrote:I see where SpyreXnoia is coming from by the way.
Baku you realize your lists and suggestions can EASILY be manipulated to ensure optimal scumpicks at this point? "Almost assuredly scum can get cop and use it to find other scum and stop town from havin nice things" thats how I'm starting to read it.-
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Toogeloo Jack of All Trades
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I am mildly curious if ALL roles will be in the game.
For example, if no one takes Fail Safe, will we have 11 Silos, or does Fail Safe automatically get dispersed? Silos say "unlimited number" which leads me to believe that it's entirely possible for there to be 20 Silos and no Power roles if we had it that way (obv not gonna happen).
(You will never receive a troop deployment if you did not request one. So, it's possible for there to be 20 silos and no other abilities. --AGM)Last edited by AlmasterGM on Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:15 am, edited 1 time in total.-
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Toogeloo Jack of All Trades
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Yes, everyone choose Silo, we will no lynch and no kill until DEFCON 1, and then we will all same time nuke (everyone needs to be on at the same time for this) a player of each of our own choosing. We will then have 48 hours of discussion before we can no longer call back any nukes... Talk about pressure .chesskid3 wrote:Let's no lynch and no kill nights 1 and 2 :DDDD-
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Theme music as we prepare to enter DEFCON 4 for everyone!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tb-gI_pFog0-
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Toogeloo Jack of All Trades
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In thatJed Cooper wrote:Here's an example with just 4 people (not 11):
Player A nukes player B to "put pressure on them". Player C nukes player A for nuking player B. Player D nukes player C for nuking player A.
All 4 players are town.
Thats 3 broken arrows with only 4 people but it doesn't stop there because we have 11 people with nukes AND we have:
1) No accountable wagon
2) No accountable way to track everybody's reads
That is EXCELLENT for scum. They just got 4 town kills without having to involve themselves and they are much closer to a win.highlyunlikely scenario, town would deserve to lose for being utterly moronic. Why stop there Jed? Let's say we have 13 nukes! Player A nukes Player B, Player B has Fail Safe, uh-oh, no protecting Player A now... But Player C doesn't know that! He nukes Player A as well, and Player D nukes Place C as well. Player E thinks Player D is scum trying to reduce town members for LyLo and nukes Player D! The Sub decides that Player E must be scum and nukes him in secret...
oh... my ... ... lord! What have we done!!!
Yeah, uh, I highly doubt any scenario like that is really going to play out. Worst case scenario I forsee is threats of counter nuking, or a bunch of people nuking and recalling within 48 hours.Possibly, a couple players may just say "fuck this game" and nuke random people for the lulz, which no amount of policing is really going to stop anyways.
If we are going to direct nukes, let's take it a step further. Let's direct our scanners/protectors who to scan and doc/rb, hmm? Let's take away the free will of a player who has a read, or wants to use the fear factor of the nuke, and do the same with our other PRs as well. I make it sound pretty drastic, huh? Directing anyone's play style is pretty worthless, and just because a person may have a nuke doesn't mean they don't have a plan for said nuke. We can't launch until DEFCON 1 anyways, at which point there will be a few dead players, 4 phases worth of reading, and plenty of targets/gambits worth playing out. Anyone trying to inhibit nuke use needs to chill until DEFCON 1 imo.-
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Toogeloo Jack of All Trades
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These phases are hard; even Fate has very little to say. I would start worrying more about it once we actually get to DEFCON 3, but it's possible that peopleFaraday wrote:Seems like there should be more people posting ITT.are[/b] trying to stay off the game's radar for the first 144 hours. It's more than likely that our first lynch will be based on this, more or less, random discussion stage.-
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Toogeloo Jack of All Trades
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Toogeloo Jack of All Trades
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Toogeloo Jack of All Trades
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We'll see if he participates more... but it's dana, I'm sure I know your expectations already.Fate wrote:Its not a policy lynch if I give him a chance, and THEN he acts scummy.
Panda what the HELL do you make of his: "derpy herpy DEFCON 4 is when the wheels will be greased" WHEN NOTHING HAS CHANGED.
I double rechecked the rules, scum could talk all Def5, all alignments were out, everyone could post, choices could be made....
We'll see what actual "importantz" he comes up with today, but the mere FACT that he has stated its only important NOW come DEF4 is scummy enough itself for ROPOS.-
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Toogeloo Jack of All Trades
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Toogeloo Jack of All Trades
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Toogeloo Jack of All Trades
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