NY 169: The EPIC XD Mafia Game of Greatness (Game Over)

[Casso the King of Seals]

It does not follow that a vig softclaimer is scum if an actual vig is found; random people fakeclaim or softclaim vig all the time.

TBF, this isn't even the argument. Titus is arguing that I softclaimed vig and I denied that and my denial is a scumclaim since I 100% vig softclaimed and her "evidence" is that she softclaimed vig that way which totes ignores that Titus=//=Nero.

Actually KBBQ, Norlkaz has the argument right.


No one fakeclaims/fakecrumbs vig who is in their right mind. The real vig will kill them almost certainly. Your denial is to be expected. No one is going to say their actions were a softclaim of the dead vig. That's literally insane and not intelligent for either alignment. The evidence to me is pretty damning that your actions were a claim because I'd do it in the same manner. Does that mean I expect everyone to agree with me?

No. However, I do expect people to understand that it is rational for me to believe his behavior was a softclaim

.

Will both of you respond to my analysis that Generic "bussing" me is impossible given the fact it would utterly bone the scumteam if successful?

Why wrt the bolded?

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Well the first chunk of bolded.

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Why would scum have a lack of conviction in their reads rather than a townperson.

The answer to this should actually be pretty obvious.

[Casso the King of Seals]

A policy scumread really? That's what you've got. Then fucking lynch me. Scum won't shoot me with the policy lynch for winning as scum. You'll then lynch me in lylo and we lose.

So just lynch me now and get it over with even though it's impossible for me to be scum.

[Casso the King of Seals]

I do like Arthur eviscerating Prophylaxis on his "votal analysis" so that makes me view more favorably. I am not sure if it is just a case of Proph being naive town and Arthur ripping him apart regardless of affiliation. "Votal analysis" is probably the most gimmicky pseudo-scumhunting tools I've seen in a long time.

Mara, why would we lynch you/GM before Casso? Are you combining how town someone is with how good a player is? Walk me through how you made that list.

It's gimmicky, but it's also fine in small doses and not horribly relevant to alignment.

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Oh yeah i remember i was voting you on the basis for putting Gen at L-1 allowing him to self hammer and cut the discussion short.

I was not willing to go through the ssk day again. Plus there was literally no scum-motivation for me putting him at L-1 (especially since I considered he'd do it) because mara right above me voted RC, so to be sincerely honest if I was scum I would have either bused early or have let it ride out for a little longer.

Just because Mara voted RC doesn't mean that there's enough energy in the day to lynch RC.

[Casso the King of Seals]

My vote on RC wasn't because he was scum, anyway. the real reason is [REDACTED]

But even if it was RC was clearly not getting lynched so SAD saying that his vote on Generic had "no scum motivation" is laughable.

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Scum know who's town and who's not.

Town don't.

Yet mysteriously town are supposed to believe in their reads stronger.

Logic.

Scum are put in the position where they have to push someone they know is town while town are never put in that position. Hence a lack of conviction since they know everything they is saying is wrong.

Does that make sense, or do you want me to rewind a bit and walk you through mafia 101?

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Oh yeah i remember i was voting you on the basis for putting Gen at L-1 allowing him to self hammer and cut the discussion short.

I was not willing to go through the ssk day again. Plus there was literally no scum-motivation for me putting him at L-1 (especially since I considered he'd do it) because mara right above me voted RC, so to be sincerely honest if I was scum I would have either bused early or have

let it ride out for a little longer

.

Just because Mara voted RC doesn't mean that there's enough energy in the day to lynch RC.

....

You don't even care about reading or figuring out my alignment right? Because otherwise you should've read the part I've bolded, and wouldn't make such a terrible statement.

There's no reason to ride out a lynch that's not going through.
Which was obvious then and is obvious now.

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So who's good enough to analyze mafiassk's whopping 34 posts for scum-relationship tells if he flips scum?

Tammy responded to this defense as if this wasn't something you cared about normally, which alarmed me. Why did you start caring about them here?

VOTE: SAD

This is literally all Casso has presented against me this whole game. And I've already justified my PoV. About 50 times.

This is definitely not an objectively incorrect statement.

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Why are you getting agitated?

Because there's a history of people mindlessly sheeping nacho/thor and I pretty much foresee it happening here again.

It's the tried and true method for lynching scumbags like you; why wouldn't they?
There's also a matter of you doing nothing that really gets the blood pumping while continuing to say that no one has anything against you while that's clearly not the case.

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A policy scumread really? That's what you've got. Then fucking lynch me. Scum won't shoot me with the policy lynch for winning as scum. You'll then lynch me in lylo and we lose.

So just lynch me now and get it over with even though it's impossible for me to be scum.

I agree the Titus AtE is pretty terrible but it's reading more of a defensive stance from town.

I agree!

[Casso the King of Seals]

Prod received.

Apparently Nacho is off doing...whatever it is Nacho does.
Which means you get me.

Neither Nacho or I particularly like the Titus wagon.
Both of us (well, mostly Nacho, he was the posting head - that was the deal) seem to really want to try to fight the derp train too much. I suspect it's because for both of us, our take on Titus is just gut, but we both are getting the vibe and have a QT with half a dozen comments of 'why is everyone still trying to lynch Titus?'. So...y'know, can we please just lynch Ser Arthur? That would be peachy.

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You guys do realize the MafiaSSK wagon literally gives 0 percent of actual helpful information right?

I never found this argument compelling.
He has a better chance of being scum than anyone we were wagonning before, and he has a higher likelihood of being lynched than the other players who might be scum. He's also a player who is not likely to obvtown unless roles, and thus makes a decent lynch.

Lynchy sheepy Thor-y?

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^^^
That's my case, by the by.
It's pretty rock solid.

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The flowchart has been, and always shall be, Majiffy's thing. he created it, posted it, and talked about it. I never have except that I've had people rage at me just for being a name on it.

But, yeah, I like to be sheeped. He didn't make that part up out of whole cloth.

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The case is good - it's quite sheepable.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Huzzah!

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Is the scum situation that bad, or do you actually expect that to convince anyone that you look town?

Hey, everybody, he's SELF VOTING! That is pure and obvious town motivation there, you should probably return to quietly lynching Titus while he pokes at Pie in the corner and pretends like he's trying to make that wagon go anywhere. How could I have ever misread such clear town play!?!


...[/sarcasm]

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No sir. This is me showing you your head is too far up your Smurf, and that maybe after I flip town you can get it out and actually start analyzing the game.

Oh...okay...so, guess it's time to flip you then, yeah?

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Wow, and actually, it occurs to me you say that to me when two things are true;

1. We have presented quite a lot of reads and analysis this game, more than most I'd happily claim.

2. I literally just showed that I had trolled through your interactions prior to this because I knew your interactions were bad.

So, yeah, way to show just how unaware and non-scumhunting the Thor/Nach combo has been. man, we are really being sub par out here.

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We have presented quite a lot of reads and analysis this game, more than most I'd happily claim.

Have you attempted to re-read Generic since he flipped scum.

No, I would never do anything like that.

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Thor, you've never minded policy lynches before, why start now? :/

Wasn't aware Titus was being lynched on policy.
Also wasn't aware that I had called it bad for being a policy lynch.

Oh...wait...neither of those things happened. I'm opposed to the Titus lynch on the basis that I think a Ser Arthur lynch is a better lynch insomuch as both Nacho and I read Titus on the town side and Ser Arthur on the scum side. So I support my policy of voting scummy players.

I mean, if you think Titus has to go on policy grounds and you can make it happen, more power to you. But just because I'm okay with policy lynches doesn't mean I'm okay with this particular lynch whether it's a policy one or no.

[Casso the King of Seals]

exactly how much of Titus have you read?

I dunno. I've read probably about half the actual game posts - so whatever that translates into. Let's call it about 50% of Titus.
What part is the amazing bit I'm missing?

I don't feel good enough about Titus scum to proceed with a lynch for now. Time remains.
I haven't touched Casso in a while but the rest of the game is making me think they'll turn out scum.

First part good.
Second part derp - but as long as you're considering me for scum, I'd also like to hear you voice an opinion on Ser Arthur.

Stop sheeping Thor. The dude hasn't even read most of the game. Hop back onto the Titus wagon Sakura.

You say that like, in this game, it remotely affects my credibility. Most of this thread is meaningless blather. I'm probably not missing much. Hell, Nacho has read it all (though maybe not the last 10-20) and is basically around the same thought as me on a number of people. So *pffft* to reading, it's overrated.

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Norl mentioned it. I think most of us don't mind flipping BOTH Titus and Sad. What order they go is irrelevant. I just don't understand your need to stop the wagon.

If most of you are fine flipping BOTH then what does it matter that I, who am not, would rather do it starting with Ser Arthur? This isn't even an actual issue, it's like you're saying 'You want to eat an apple then a pear, and most of the rest of us don't care either way, so why can't you support eating the pear first and then the apple?' It literally makes no sense and has nothing to do with my stance.

I partly want to get Titus lynched over SAD because Casso doesn't want it, partly because SAD's frustration about the wagon on him feels town. I want to see where this goes, i.e. if Titus flips scum, I'd keep more of an eye on Casso. This also seems to be the first time this game Thor cared so much about who is lynched.

This is wrong on so many levels.

Also, not impressed that Nacho is posting elsewhere but not here. He is just allowing Thor to clown around and create chaos.

I am annoyed by that too - but I am specifically not clowning around (well, moreso than my usual baseline) what is your issue with me having a preference to the lynch order? You seem really frustrated that I'm not indifferent - shouldn't that please you because, depending on the flips, it's actually more info about me? I'm not even clowning, I'm stating specific goals and desires and trying to make them happen.

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My play would likely have been a lot different without DOMO targeting me night 1. I'm usually not an early investigative target at MS for some reason. I play differently when I'm coming under or expect to come under legitimate non-paranoia-based suspicion. I think getting investigated harmed my game, paradoxically. I play better when I make a reasonable target of suspicion, and I wind up being read solidly town because I earn it.

You see this all the time whenever almost anyone is cop/gunsmith/et al cleared. They actually become town slugs more often than not.

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Fun fact - it's been well over a week since the last time Nacho posted in the QT, then it's just a stream of Thor posts, and then it's Thor talking about how he's posting now.
It's a pretty useless QT for that period.
Nacho is helluva bored or indifferent with the gamestate right now.

Oh...hey, look, we're a 289 page game, and unlike all of you a Hydra player who gets worn down has the ability to step away.
Shock.

We should have done more speed lynching when Thor was requesting it, then we'd have less lurka-derping now.

True story.

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Paranoia note: For masons, gm and MM don't agree on much.

That seems pretty normal. Simply because they're alignment confirmed to each other hardly means they are supposed to be in a mind meld.
Have you ever been in a Hydra? I know I don't always agree with every read my Hydra partners come up with - same deal.

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Actually, even hydrae technically have no obligation to agree on anything.
Also, why aren't you scumreading Casso for their dissonance?

This looks more like deflection than trying to peg him for a weak hypocrisy angle.
And, basically, I can't figure out why you'd do either. The hypocrisy side is weak and barely relatable to try to use as a tell, and the attack he did on you is barely worth needing to sweat because it's so silly.
So what are you doing here?

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I was aiming for the "hypocrisy angle," as you put it.

Whether or not there's a need for it, I wanted to.

Why? And did you and/or do you think there was a need for it?

So why are you asking?

Because it is an awkward reaction and I'm curious about the mindset that lead to it happening. I kind of feel I indicated that already.
Do you need me to walk you through "what is scumhunting" for 100, Alex?

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ask a question about a past game one or more of you shared with just one of us? The other answers, and because it's a time thing there's no question of having gone back and read it? Or something similar?

A quick personal question seems more brilliant to me.
Less ability to fake an answer, also less interpretation and Google-fu ability in justifying any answer.

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What is your town case on Titus?

Well, for me it's mostly gut and the too easy feel of the wagon.

For Nacho it's the Cephir read (do you remember Cephir - a lot of people didn't scum read Cephir)

Different paths, same end result.

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Nacho, please let me take the lead and follow my list

You owe me for pennepidum <3

I don't owe you anything
What do you think of my Cephrir townread? If you want me to even consider lynching Titus, there's a giant stumbling block you'll have to overcome because that's the read I've invested the most time and brainpower into forming and it's become the type of read that's going to have to be pried from my cold, dead fingers.

If you are hellbent on being stupid, lynch me today. I cannot live in lylo due to people discrediting me. SAD is a horrible lynch. Prophy and Sakura are the onlycandidates I will tolerate. I want a scum lynch if I have to die trying, so be it. Lynch me or leave me be.

Why do you think SAD is a bad lynch?
Because he most certainly is not.

The xenogears town came really close to losing because they didn't scumhunt "below the line". They lynched through that group without a lot of thought.

We came close to losing because confirmed town hammered a claim supersaint for absolutely no reason, actually.

Falcon, you don't understand the pain we all went through watching Pere hammer obv-town nacho giving scum the win

I still am of the camp that policy lynching players because they will fuck up LyLo is a shitty idea; if you're playing with the expectation that you will reach LyLo, then you will probably end up in LyLo and that isn't exactly the ideal situation for town, especially considering that the stronger players are the ones who are the most likely to fool you in LyLo. I also don't think that this game will reach/should reach LyLo.

If my flip achieves anything it should be that Thor gets off his high horse and actually starts putting in ~effort~

Do you really think that you flipping town will shake Thor from his high high horse? Because I don't.

I partly want to get Titus lynched over SAD because Casso doesn't want it

, partly because SAD's frustration about the wagon on him feels town. I want to see where this goes, i.e. if Titus flips scum, I'd keep more of an eye on Casso. This also seems to be the first time this game Thor cared so much about who is lynched.

Also, not impressed that Nacho is posting elsewhere but not here. He is just allowing Thor to clown around and create chaos.

I have not posted on any hydra games during busy as fuck work week because I assume that all of my hydra partners are competent enough to handle the game on their own. Granted, Thor might be the only exception, but etc.

I think I just went on stalker mode and was looking at the wrong photobucket.

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I'm not really finding SAD's self-vote dance very genuine at all. It doesn't exactly strike me as the type of full-blown meltdown that a "fuck you, I'm bringing you off your high horse" meltdown tends to bring with it, and the lack of anything around the self-vote makes the vote seem more like an attempt to throw us off him as opposed to anything else. I browsed Titan's play in that horror of a nightless game but Arthur didn't really post much during the meltdown phase (yet another towngame where he lurked to the end), so that didn't really turn out to be very fruitful at all. Coupled that with the attacks on geists and worry about Mara/GM and it ends up just seeming gambitty, like he's trying to do things he figures people think scum wouldn't do in an effort for towncred.

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I acknowledge that a Titus wagon is not the absolute worst thing to come into the game ever, but:

Prophylaxis (3) - zMuffinMan, Titus, Ser Arthur Dayne

is horrible.
I don't think that Bert was scum, especially considering his recent string of games where he's scum and plays like absolute and complete shit and this not being the game where he breaks his rut so throughly and completely, especially when micro games where he's playing like absolute shit are still ongoing. I really really don't give a shit what Proph ends up posting but the slot is still town.

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I think pieguy could possibly be scum and would be massively reassured if he popped up in thread and started doing a bunch of ridiculously townie things again.

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I think pieguy could possibly be scum and would be massively reassured if he popped up in thread and started doing a bunch of ridiculously townie things again.

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I was looking for something resembling a meltdown.
I thought I might find it in the nightless game; I remember pretty much none of Mafiastuck except Fate getting scum again and me being sad.

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And I protected buldermar from lynch and I miss buldermar =(

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Outside of the interactions with Generic, Titus was townish and I still think Ceph was townish, and not at all likely to be coming from a scumslot no matter how much I want to do a policy lynch at this point

i love you mara
thank you.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Muffin whats your read on Pieguy

town?

he's been a complete non-factor and him shutting down and not posting anything worth reading lately has me worrying a bit, and i really don't like how he's got this idea of a scum team in his head and is dropping all analysis in favour of tunneling those reads, but i got pie-town feels from his posting on earlier days

I think that he's been gone everywhere so lurking in this game isn't particularly horrible.

Unvote
Vote: SAD

I thought SAD was town?

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I'm thinking we should probably lynch Muffin.

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I won't be able to be back for deadline, though.
And I still don't want Titus to get lynched.

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Vote: Muffin

this is what the fox says

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Vote: SAD

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I still think Titus is one of our scum because Cephrir's posts looked so fake. I need to re-read some of his towngames to see if how his posts look to me there.

Norl looks okay on a re-read but I need him to seriously step it up. Llamarble can be obvtown when town.

Casso actually looks pretty bad because the mutual pushes from Casso and zMuffin went nowhere and I feel they gave up too easily. zMuffin was never convinced that Casso was town but he stopped pushing them. Nacho too was scumreading zMuffin all along but his contribution to the zMuffin lynch was surprisingly insignificant.

My contribution to the Muffin lynch wasn't significant because the flash wagon appeared out of nowhere and at a time when there was already a pretty great wagon on my top suspect. It never went anywhere because I haven't actually been confident in reading Muffin until now and went through a time of self-doubt caused by the only significant thing him he actually ended up doing the entire game being a weak shit push on me and nothing else.

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Also like I don't think Titus scum would ignore the hell out of the muffin wagon like she did towards the end there.

This is actually a good point.

Why not? She is awkward about bussing buddies (I can finally say this now!).

[Casso the King of Seals]

Actually

Vote: Casso

I genuinely don't think nacho is bad enough to enter the game with a vote on me. He's doing that thing that scum do where they try to act confident in their reads.

Why is a vote on you bad?

[Casso the King of Seals]

I still think Titus is one of our scum because Cephrir's posts looked so fake. I need to re-read some of his towngames to see if how his posts look to me there.

Norl looks okay on a re-read but I need him to seriously step it up. Llamarble can be obvtown when town.

Casso actually looks pretty bad because the mutual pushes from Casso and zMuffin went nowhere and I feel they gave up too easily. zMuffin was never convinced that Casso was town but he stopped pushing them. Nacho too was scumreading zMuffin all along but his contribution to the zMuffin lynch was surprisingly insignificant.

My contribution to the Muffin lynch wasn't significant because the flash wagon appeared out of nowhere and at a time when there was already a pretty great wagon on my top suspect. It never went anywhere because I haven't actually been confident in reading Muffin until now and went through a time of self-doubt caused by the only significant thing him he actually ended up doing the entire game being a weak shit push on me and nothing else.

Okay, but you spent a lot of time accusing zMuffin of being scum, pointing out how his sorting of you was scummy, how he wasn't pushing you as hard as town-Muffin would, yet you never lead a lynch on him in typical town-Nacho fashion. Our experience in Zachgame compounds my worries because it was really easy to see you as town there based on the way you pushed people, especially Wisdom and you looked quite town even before you added the "led a scum lynch" badge to your chest. You know you have the pull to drive a lynch through if you believed in it and you did push the Desperado lynch and wagoned Sakura and SSK to L-1 on D1, so why was there never a strong push for lynching Muffin? As the game went on, your push only became weaker and you distracted yourself with Arthur who I am struggling to see as scum right now. The push on you from Desperado was enough for you to lead a lynch on him, so why didn't the same thing apply to zMuffin?

My suspicions of Muffn started out pretty strong, but ended dying out as the game went on. I never really reached a point after the initial exchange where I had a good read on Muffin. We have been scum partners for the past two games we played or I've been scum against him or he's been pretty obvious town: this was the first time I ever really tried to read him and he wasn't exactly extremely scummy, just different in a bad way. Desperado is a player that I know a lot better than Muffin, and generally his interactions never amounted to the Day 2 interactions I had with him, and it was definitely weird enough to push through to a lynch. Muffin never felt that way.

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Also like I don't think Titus scum would ignore the hell out of the muffin wagon like she did towards the end there.

This is actually a good point.

Why not? She is awkward about bussing buddies (I can finally say this now!).

Can I see a link? You seem to be implying you just finished a game with scum-Titus.

Mobile Gundam is the game I'm thinking of.

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vote: Titus

@F-16:

what are your thoughts on 2218?

@Titus:

talk to me about this

@Titus:

how the hell is Proph lurking? it doesn't seem to me like he's doing that at all (although mb I'm kind of biased considering people have been saying I'm powerlurking this game). it seems like he's putting in a lot of effort

and what do you think of Norl's assertion that Proph would have tried really hard if scum?

@Casso:

what do you think of the interactions between SAD and zmuffin?

There was a lot of interactions in the beginning of the game, and a lot of interaction before Muffin's lynch, but absolutely nothing in between. I thought SAD didn't think that he'd really have any sway during the last few days and was going for some last minute distancing.

Why did you decide to vote Titus?

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We're a VT. Claim when you arrive.

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I shouldn't be relieved when seeing a town flip but I am very relieved regardless.

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also the way you called it a stupid lynch sounds like you thought that's what it was before the actual lynch. you're lamenting everyone else for what you thought was a "stupid lynch" which makes it sound like you were always against her lynch.

Umm well yeah I always had this deep gut feeling that she was town (see my thoughts on her before I agreed with you) and basically got "peer pressured" (idk I hate that term but can't think of something better atm) into thinking she was scum.

@Pie okay I might see your point (even though I think people should play the game emotionally detached in game (versus out of game) but w/e).

My emotions factor very heavily into how I play this game because I play this game to understand people and a emotions are usually king.

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also the way you called it a stupid lynch sounds like you thought that's what it was before the actual lynch. you're lamenting everyone else for what you thought was a "stupid lynch" which makes it sound like you were always against her lynch.

Umm well yeah I always had this deep gut feeling that she was town (see my thoughts on her before I agreed with you) and basically got "peer pressured" (idk I hate that term but can't think of something better atm) into thinking she was scum.

How, exactly? You didn't seem to have a problem resisting lynches elsewhere.

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Norl, could you give me post links in your posts? I would love to engage you more, but most of my opportunities to sink time into the game come in short bursts and navigating pages + opening new tabs eats up a lot of time on tablet.

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Actually

Vote: Casso

I genuinely don't think nacho is bad enough to enter the game with a vote on me. He's doing that thing that scum do where they try to act confident in their reads.

Why is a vote on you bad?

Take a brief moment to indulge in an individual mental exercise where you try to read the game and THEN attempt to analyze it.

I would like a non-bullshit answer to this one.

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It occurs to me that sh self :hammered: as scum.
Once you claim it you can basically do whatever and its not a violation of the "scum dont go to the depths" supertell.
So yeah I will write her off and if she has transcended that tell then kudos.

What does this mean, again?

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@Casso:

what's your current read on Sakura?

also walk me through your Sakura read throughout the game. why were you initially scumreading her and what were your thoughts at the time where you backed off?

I was initially scumreading Sakura because early play interactions didn't seem like the usual early play interactions: she was mostly letting everyone else sort out the people she usually hyper focuses on sorting out, she wasn't interacting with me the usual way based on excuses that weren't making sense (oh I'm not sheeping you based on a game where you played badly but I will sheep you while that game is going on). When I backed off, it was a strong flip: the way she responded to the pressure on her was so obviously and poignantly town that it took what was a pretty good confidence level initially and then grounded it into dust. I kept her talking just to make sure that this wasn't the game where she was able to pull that sort of thing, but all the drive was taken out of that wagon the moment she fully responded to it. I think I've had my quiet paranoid moments about her from time to time, but nothing that's added up to anything significant at all, and nothing that overpowers that initial town read.

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Actually

Vote: Casso

I genuinely don't think nacho is bad enough to enter the game with a vote on me. He's doing that thing that scum do where they try to act confident in their reads.

Why is a vote on you bad?

Take a brief moment to indulge in an individual mental exercise where you try to read the game and THEN attempt to analyze it.

I would like a non-bullshit answer to this one.

Again, read the game.

If you really think my push on muffin was a bus then I really can't help you.

I guess you can't help me, then.

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lol @ Norl's weak ass attempt at calling us scum. When I get back I might bother refuting that steaming pile of shit but for now...

@GIF The reason our vote is sitting on Hana is 'cause she's unclaimed while we are in massclaim and she's posted twice and ignored the massclaim so she's acting like she's oblivious to what's going on and that's fake as fuck. I was willing to agree with you that her day1 refusal to claim was a towntell but that's supposedly also what her scum game is. Hana scum=fake town tells.

Discuss!

I also need to extend my V/LA to next week. I'm moving but AT&T can't come till Friday! If that's to long you can replace me

I don't think your reasons for voting Hana are very good.

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Though if you want to take a step in the earning-llama's trust direction Casso, you are welcome to inform these good people that I have over the last week or two annihilated any possibility I had of being scum.

I'm very glad that the Norlkaz that I was waiting for all this time has finally appeared. I will be more satisfied when you've found scum and declared them, but the chances of you being scum are sailing pretty quickly south, which excites me.

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Some people rate daytalk quite highly. In fact, I seem to recall that some people balance Encryptors as carrying an extra Mafia member.

Now, I'm not saying everyone finds daytalk so valuable, but I could see that as a possibility here.

I have never cared about what role the shitty player I'm bussing has.

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I am also doubting my townread on BBQ and need GiF to appear and make it all better.

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I have a few doubts on Proph slot, but not many.

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Because I'm seeing "hey hey I think X is town" but.. his vote isn't on anyone, and glancing at his last few posts I see no concrete scumreads, or even "since I think everyone is town I'll vote SAD".

If you glance at my last few posts, you'll see no concrete scumreads. If you glance at my last few days of play, you'll notice a very concrete scumread that's been sitting on SAD for a while, but, since today is Llamarble's glory day, I'm waiting for him to do his thing and dazzle everyone and take all of the glory. I'm also reanalyzing reads elsewhere, since I've been sitting on a stale pile of townreads for a few days now and I can't afford to be wrong more than once around this point in time.

had good (read: not scum on scum) interactions with zMuffinMan on Day 5?

When did this happen? I remember a push out of the blue when he was dead in the water, but I don't remember much beyond that.

1. what do you think about Norl's point about your post where you backed off her?

The post he quoted was the case that I made when I was already backing off, so naturally it wasn't as strong and unapologetic as those posts before when I was pushing the hell out of her. There were other targets I could have pushed at that point in time (plenty), so it's not like that was a push that I had to make in order to play to my wincon.

2. really? bc I saw a bunch of markers of town-her from back on D1 although mb I'm biased bc I attribute a lot of things to this being a large game (at the same time I can't read her for shit so I might be terribly in the wrong about this). it definitely felt like she was trying to sort you two and her excuse for not sheeping you came across town to me and not like smth she'd think of as scum. I'd also think you'd realize she wouldn't put as much effort in the game given her RL

I can see a certain degree of detachment because of RL, but Sakura has never been the type to completely disengage because Large Game (ever, really). It didn't feel like she was trying to sort us on our end, and we never found any significant town markers (especially since Sakura normally hits her town markers hard early on) and we found tons of scum blips.

also can someone who can read Bert tell me if he could possibly have been scum here?

I still doubt it. I will probably read through his ISO later, but I remember having very strong clarity moments of Bert-town from exchanges with him.

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Yeah

Vote: Norlkaz

His super-try-mode also seems to indicate he's the last scum, so *shrug*

I'm starting to think Norklaz might be town just because of his activity boost

prod dodge

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I will have another significant time chunk in about 13-14 hours, which would give us 24 hours for a lynch.

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Also Casso I don't think interpreting the same information in different ways over time is a scumtell.

I don't think this tends to happen when people approach the same information at the same angle, and I don't think that SAD has shown any signs of approaching things from a different angle: revelations went from "lol, scum trying to post a lot because he's the last scum" to "lots of posting means really town" without a whole lot of in between.

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Vote: SAD

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What scum motivation is there for changing a scumread to a townread when there are so few left.

It couldn't be because lynching Norlkaz was more trouble than you thought it would be, could it?

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PLUS the fact that as scum I literally keep my reads static whereas if you meta me you'll see that my town games are filled with read changes like that because I usually have an initial gut reaction to something and then I step back and better evaluate the situation, which very often leads to a mood change.

I have no doubt your reads are, on the whole, more static as scum than they are as town.
I have a little doubt that your sudden change onto Norlkaz wasn't inspired by a small bit of lynch energy on him at the beginning of the day, and your settling back to the read on me happened when that lynch energy dissipated.

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...

That's actually a dream situation for me as scum.

Because then I literally just get to sit back and make noise about how someone is scum when they're not going to get lynched anyway.

Except... they don't get lynched and you die in their stead.
Which is a less than ideal situation for multiple reasons.

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PLUS the fact that as scum I literally keep my reads static whereas if you meta me you'll see that my town games are filled with read changes like that because I usually have an initial gut reaction to something and then I step back and better evaluate the situation, which very often leads to a mood change.

I have no doubt your reads are, on the whole, more static as scum than they are as town.
I have a little doubt that your sudden change onto Norlkaz wasn't inspired by a small bit of lynch energy on him at the beginning of the day, and your settling back to the read on me happened when that lynch energy dissipated.

Yeah, it's not like I'm the first one who expressed that "small bit of lynch energy" or anything...

I don't remember that being the case. I remember you throwing out the Norlkaz name, but when did you actually start pushing it?

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Greetings,

Head switch due to Nacho going to Canada for some reason.
We've been having a lot of communication breakdown because QT doesn't work for me in my current internet setup - I have no idea why.

I also haven't really been following the last few day...phases.
Sorry for that.

So, what's up?

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Apparently Korean BBQ is claiming "bad at the game" then, huh?

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Llamarble died, and he was pretty much pointing to you and BBQ being scum, gm still wants you dead and mara still loves you, and i'm having issues with your alignment.

So what I hear is business as usual.
I'm impressed that only did F16 end up looking town but he drew a NK. Good for him.
I also see that a number of my issue reads are still kicking even at this stage. Shock.

Apparently Korean BBQ is claiming "bad at the game" then, huh?

it's my masterplan to free AtE points from suckers

I am very bad at this mafia game.
please punish me for being bad.

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... ng_as_Town
I swear I get to post this thing at least once a day.

So...basically, admission of bad play or scum. Copy.

Vote: KoreanBBQ

Also, didn't we have some claimed masons here? Are they all still alive or was it a lulz gambit from some VTs?
Because that would be awesome if it was and I want to read the reveal post.

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Oh my gawd, even my own iso is 4 pages long.
I don't want to have to try to find the mason info.
If it wasn't this game then I'm going derpier than usual.

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Wasn't that why I had to give up trying to kill Goodmorning? I seem to recall something making me have to stop wanting that.

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Maraca/Goodmorning are masons.

Hah! I win!

Maraca is Marangal, who I recall liking for town.
Why the hell are the scum killing all these other people. Was F16 and Nork townier than ruddy Masons? And if so, why? And why aren't we discussing that? And if we are, what *is* that discussion?

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So which one?
Just a bad play or scum?
You said "or" so you're not allowed to say both.

If you're town it's bad play.
If you're scum it's scummy play.

So clearly it's not both.

Okay, so why do you think scum killed Falcon and Norklaz over confirmed Masons?

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Thor this is just for you.

Spoiler:

I am pulling a slayer's gambit. Am I giving you a heart attack yet?

I don't even know what that is and am too lazy to look it up on the Wiki.
So no.

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5) Norklaz/Falcon had good reads...

I mean, that seems a pretty obvious one too, no?

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See above.
(Also dodging the choice I see )

I don't think I dodged it at all but allow me to clarify.
I don't think you should expect me to say that I'm voting you because I think you're town.
One of my two options was 'you're town'.
Work through it slowly and my conclusion may come seeping to the surface.
Whassup?

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I am thinking KBBQ, Sakura, Proph, and Norl are town. Those are my top four townreads. Eliminating them, Mara, and GM, we still have Pie, Casso, SAD, Titus. I think Pie could be town but I am not certain.

I pretty much want to lynch Titus because I can't for the life of me see Cephrir being town the more I think about it.

I didn't manage to resatisfy myself of SADscum.
I could be interested in a pivot to KBBQ.
The last page of their ISO covers basically the whole game beyond D3 or so, and I am not impressed.
I'm going to leave my vote there for a couple hours and do something else; I expect to be back later this evening and tomorrow prior to hammertime.
VOTE: Korean BBQ

I'd be curious to hear more BBQ opinions before day ends.
I'm going to have to reread Pieguy because I lost a lot of my townconfidence on them.

Derpa-dee, derpa-doo

Unvote:BBQ
Vote: Pie

Now I'm hungry.

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Could be a policy vote you know.

Did you bother to read my link?
Read my link - get better.

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Did you bother to read my quotes?
Read my quotes - get better.

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I'mma go get food now, seriously.
In my absence more people should vote for food.

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I didn't miss much.

Look, I'm thinking we should lynch Pie, or maybe as a semi decent second option BBQ.
If people have no other interesting thoughts in their heads and also don't just want to sheep me you could at least do the common decency of saying why you're not sheeping or ask me why my case is worth sheeping or...y'know...anything.

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I guess looking back over Nacho's last few thoughts I'm opposed to the Proph wagon and also supportive of a Sakura wagon.
So let's call it Sakura/BBQ as my secondaries and I'll maybe chat with Nacho at some eventual point in the future when we manage to locate our buttocks with both hands and a map and we'll work on that.
I'll just call the Proph case bad out of hand because Nacho apparently mostly town read him and also, hey, it's BBQ making the case, so I'll just hate on it intrinsically.

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Has anyone done any actual wagon color coding within the last phase or so?
I mean...I could do it, but I'd be just as happy not doing it.
Especially if it's been done.

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What do you think of thor calling everyone scum except for proph and the masons

...sanity?
Because if you take the seven players, take me out, take out the masons, and then give me one town read on Proph that leaves...let's see...carry the remainder...divide by ten...three suspects.
One of which I listed as my biggest.
With a case.
How very...very...strange of me.

I think what it really shows is Nacho probably had good reads while I was gone.
Again - shock.

ehh...

Kinda weird that he hasn't mentioned Nacho's sakura read, though it doesn't really seem like the reads nacho is putting out here is the same as the ones in the qt so, iunno.

I thought I had mentioned it.
I kinda said "here's Nacho's Sakura read, so I'll sheep along on that one"
Pretty much a direct quote really.
I'm not a particularly subtle guy, y'know.

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1. Pie > me
2. The reason for scumread on pie is related to nks, which is full of wifom, instead of the finding somethinf scummy in pie's posts.
3. The reason for scumread on me is related what I posted. (And it sounds like a half policy but that's just my personal opinion.)
4. Thor has a stronger scumread on pie than me.

I read this, and even reading it exactly as you presented it...I'm not sure what your issue is.
You're complaining that my read on Pie is weak, and that my read on you is weak (and maybe half policy) and then pointing out that it's odd that I have one as a stronger read even though you're not willing to admit that my read on you should be strong or is a good read.

So...what's your perceived issue here?
Specifically?

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@Sakura - I'm pushing on Pie. Try to keep up.

@Marangal - Here's the comment from Nacho I'm going off of;

I can see a certain degree of detachment because of RL, but Sakura has never been the type to completely disengage because Large Game (ever, really). It didn't feel like she was trying to sort us on our end, and we never found any significant town markers (especially since Sakura normally hits her town markers hard early on) and we found tons of scum blips.

All I did was scroll back up through his posts and look for any commentary from him on when he last mentioned people. Since he mentioned her as questionable and I really didn't give a hang/have a read I tossed her out as well.

@Proph - you think their prior proof is questionable? Also, what's your case on me other than 'oddly easy and available wagon', natch?

Pie didn't mention my case.
Just saying.

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Actually I have to take some of the above back, I mixed up Pie and Sakura's avatars.

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I guess for me it's still good as a reaction goes.
I want to lynch Pie, he attacks me for wanting to lynch BBQ.

Derpa.

That doesn't really make a lot of sense, he should be paying attention to what I'm talking about and saying about him at least as much, and if my attack on BBQ is bad my attack on Pie, by definition, should even be worse, but yet he doesn't even stance there. I think Pie is scum, and if I'm right then BBQ is town, huzzah for us.
Sakura can also be thought of as less silly by me now, even if the silliness was my perception of Pie = her...which I guess would make her look silly.

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Nacho's back!

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Can we all just agree that it's Casso then?

Who makes sense as my partner?

If ppl somehow doesn't have me in the townpile, I'll gladly get myself lynched today.
I can't garner enough of my time to give this game a good reread/reassess and probably will be a vote lender for the rest of the game anyway (just like I have been for last few weeks)

I'm guessing this promise has faded away by now? Now is not the time to give up and eat a lynch if town, now is the time to once again dig deep and keep producing. Who are you vote lending to?

wait do you all think Proph bussed zmuffin?

I think it's possible. I also think that it's possible for pretty much anyone to be scum at this point, minus masons (unless Mara's playing the best scumgame of her life, which is always a possibility).

also people were making fun of his "votal analysis" and I think it'd be even harder to fake this with the knowledge other people were already skeptical of your scumhunting methods

on the other hand, even if Casso is scum I can see the Casso push making sense as an extra boost towards endgame and there was also Titus's meta read (but this can be attributed to him being from MTGS and this not being his homesite). what do you think?

What impressed me about Titus in Olympian Gods was her pretty solidly and immediately nailing ika-slot as scum based on meta. However, she doesn't seem half as sure here as she did there and I'm decently confident that Proph's homesite is MTGS and not Titus's homesite (I'll probably do some digging to figure this out eventually), so I don't think it would be as intimate of a meta read as the ika one.

pie are town not scum if anyone is doubting them. If we're all goos with that, then whatever.

I would be happy with the pie explanation.

plus Sakura makes the most sense as a potential Casso partner.

And Sakura as my partner doesn't really make any sense at all.

BBQ is a terrible lynch and I hate hate hate how a bunch of people are all of a sudden fine with lynching him (especially Casso).

When people who should be flipping scum flip town, you reassess. I think BBQ looks worse than most other people here.
Why do you think that he's town?

I can't see any scenario where Casso isn't scum and I'd far prefer to go for the sure bet right now as opposed to chancing a lynch on someone else

And whenever things happen like this for absolutely no reasoning, games go to shit.
Why is it a sure bet that I'm scum? What have I done this game that has been particularly scummy? Is it that I've been my usual lurky scum self? Nope, that can't be it considering I've put more effort into this game than I have any other game in a very, very long time and still have been making time for this game despite being busy as shit and lurking everywhere. Could it be that I don't have the usual passion that I have in my towngames? Nope, that can't be it either considering I've hit the TOWN NACHO notes many, many times in this game. Could it be because my interactions with flipped scum are weird? I sure as hell hope that isn't the case: you've certainly been in my same position where you're railing and railing against Muffin because you think you've gotten him pegged as scum, no one really believes you and the read peters out a bit although the paranoia is still always there. My interactions with SSK are pretty fucking strange for scumpartners in and of themselves, and interactions with Generic are nothing special but certainly don't scream scumpartners.

Vote: KoreanBBQ

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Vote: Prophylaxis

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the problem I'm having is there's no one else left. I have townreads of varying degrees on everyone else leaving SAD and Casso. if Casso is town it's SAD/Proph and I keep thinking Proph is town

After SAD flipped town, you should have gone into reassessing mode. Why haven't you? Why aren't you more heavily considering Proph-scum?

SAD town means that, given the dynamic D5, Proph is town. both wagons were on town and then he derailed both of them onto zmuffin. given he was voting back and forth for the first part of D5 I don't think this makes sense from a scum POV

Why not? I had to have done the same D1: derail BBQ and SC wagons onto Sakura (town or scum) onto scum. Do you really think it was Proph that swung the wagon onto Muffin, and why?

Proph was bouncing back and forth between the SAD and Titus wagons and then he derailed both of them onto zmuffin. if he's scum idk how much sense this makes given he was originally perfectly fine with SAD/Titus. his trajectory on zmuffin and subsequent interactions also felt legitimate.

Why don't you think it was possible he thought the push on Muffin wouldn't get through? Why did the trajectory on Muffin + subsequent interactions feel nor-scumbuddy?

I found a really awesome tell on GIF and if he's scum here that means said tell is wrong.

I don't think your tell is accurate. Take it away, are you still confident GiF is town?

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- Is it normal for Casso to pop in, multipost with some thoughts, and leave? Because I'm seeing "hey hey I think X is town" but.. his vote isn't on anyone, and glancing at his last few posts I see no concrete scumreads, or even "since I think everyone is town I'll vote SAD".

Who has done anything that doesn't equate with popping in, multiposting with some thoughts, and then leaving? It also amazes me that you couldn't catch onto me not having SAD as a scumread, considering that was in every one of my posts since I started pushing SAD twenty years ago.

- KoreanBBQ is always absent and again I don't remember what they've done. Still willing to clear based on D1 wagon unless I see evidence of scum counterwagoning scum on 'Scum.

It exists. I am too lazy and too strapped for time to dig it up now, but it exists. Is this really your only reason for clearing them?

Looking purely at vote counts + PoE make me think Casso/KoreanBBQ scumteam is a lock.

What happened to the counterwagon tell? How exactly did you drop that strong towntell so... easily? Why did you stop pushing Sakura?

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Also, Proph, is there a reason you haven't dug into my posts at all this game? Or even attempted to read me, considering you do have experience with me, have read games that I've been in... have plenty of meta at your disposal...?

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I think that the masons have daychat based on the test conducted earlier, and it isn't necessary to conduct another one.
The only possible way that they are scum together is if one of them is a mafia neighborizer that neighborized them N1 and planned on using daychat after flipped Mafia Encryptor to confirm themselves as town down the road, which is beyond too ridiculous.

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If Sakura's scum, she completely and truly has graduated and deserves the win.
I don't think there's a very great chance she's scum, and I don't see what pie's seeing in a possibility there.

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If Sakura's scum, she completely and truly has graduated and deserves the win.
I don't think there's a very great chance she's scum, and I don't see what pie's seeing in a possibility there.

Odd of you to say this after I completely obliterated you in that newbie game, I'd think you'd be more wary about me after that.

I think I'd be more likely to use it as leverage to push your mislynch later down the road.
"oh, she fooled me that one game, maybe she's fooling me here!"

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I was about to ask Sakura 'what the hell buddying?' then realized Nacho was posting after Canada told him to sod off.
I'm sitting around with gmail open, my friend. Well...at least for a while longer.

My first question will be "besides the opportunistic lurch, what's up with the Proph move?"
I'd rather lynch BBQ or the two methinks - look at the dead people. Dead peole who died before masons. Who died before *apparently confirmed daychat sans Encryptor* masons.
I mean, c;mon.

-----------------
Here's my Sakura mock post just for lulz.

Well...now I have someone complaining that I'm scummy for suspecting you and you complaining that I'm scummy for buddying you.
:shrug:

I'm pretty sure that makes at least one of you kinda silly, and me probably okay.
I also don't think I've bothered to buddy you at all.

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Do you agree with me that BBQ is suspect and also worse than Proph? As long as Nacho is buddying you I'll take some extra leverage here.

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Well that's true, but i find it odd that you aren't getting any bit paranoid about me because of that game, you could also be buddying to me you know.

I have had moments of paranoia, sure, but in the end the townSakura that showed up here was the old town Sakura levels that you couldn't quite reach before. I have seen scumgames where you've attempted to replicate it, and you've come close, but you haven't been able to reach it quite yet.

Which is why pie's read on you is worrying: he should be able to see that better than anyone else.

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I'd rather lynch BBQ or the two methinks - look at the dead people. Dead peole who died before masons. Who died before *apparently confirmed daychat sans Encryptor* masons.
I mean, c;mon.

Why on earth is this hydra so utterly dissonant?

Different people with radically different play styles formed over a long period of time have completely different approaches to the game and also different reads?

What a surprise!

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I was about to ask Sakura 'what the hell buddying?' then realized Nacho was posting after Canada told him to sod off.
I'm sitting around with gmail open, my friend. Well...at least for a while longer.

My first question will be "besides the opportunistic lurch, what's up with the Proph move?"
I'd rather lynch BBQ or the two methinks - look at the dead people. Dead peole who died before masons. Who died before *apparently confirmed daychat sans Encryptor* masons.
I mean, c;mon.

-----------------
Here's my Sakura mock post just for lulz.

Well...now I have someone complaining that I'm scummy for suspecting you and you complaining that I'm scummy for buddying you.
:shrug:

I'm pretty sure that makes at least one of you kinda silly, and me probably okay.
I also don't think I've bothered to buddy you at all.

I think looking at dead people's reads is a fine marker for determining who you should be reevaluating and when. I'm not particularly inclined to just sheep them when I wouldn't just sheep them when they were alive. Is Proph your strongest townread?

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post

hey Nacho speaking of SAD I have a question

I was looking at some old SAD games near D7 end and remember xenoblade? I'm sure you do and I'm p sure you misread the fuck out of him in that game. why did you feel so sure about him scum here after that kind of misread? or was that just you pushing a mislynch

and if you're town, what you're doing is the best way to lose games. you're playing up paranoia about just about every single person here besides Sakura. the whole point of POE'ing the game is that you DON'T NEED TO GO BACK AND RECONSIDER YOUR TOWNREADS EVEN IF SOME OF THE REMAINING PEOPLE FLIP TOWN. if you do that, it defeats the whole idea of POE. if you have a townblock of 5 people and then everyone besides them and 2 other people flip town, you don't go back and fucking lynch through the townblock, you lynch the remaining people. your behavior here is consistent with scum needing to push mislynch after mislynch in order to win as opposed to town uncertainty. this is also the exact opposite of how you navigated the endgame in Mistakes UPick where you were honing in on one person (catboi) and is consistent with what I remember you doing in marketplace as scum

Sakura makes the most sense as your partner bc running her to L-1, staging a breakdown and a shitton of scum theater about it, and causing chaos at deadline seems like a legitimate scum tactic and smth you would do. and you two are sticking together and not expressing much suspicion of each other (and when I pressure Sakura about it she keeps ignoring me)

my read on you is entirely POE. I've outright said you're scum bc I can't see anyone else as scum, so why are you asking me this question? this entire paragraph feels like you're trying to smokescreen me by asking me a bunch of questions that have nothing to do with my actual point and there's ATF in there to boot. the constant questions about "who's my partner" also make sense in this context

the problem I'm having is there's no one else left. I have townreads of varying degrees on everyone else leaving SAD and Casso. if Casso is town it's SAD/Proph and I keep thinking Proph is town

After SAD flipped town, you should have gone into reassessing mode. Why haven't you? Why aren't you more heavily considering Proph-scum?

SAD town means that, given the dynamic D5, Proph is town. both wagons were on town and then he derailed both of them onto zmuffin. given he was voting back and forth for the first part of D5 I don't think this makes sense from a scum POV

Why not? I had to have done the same D1: derail BBQ and SC wagons onto Sakura (town or scum) onto scum. Do you really think it was Proph that swung the wagon onto Muffin, and why?

Proph was bouncing back and forth between the SAD and Titus wagons and then he derailed both of them onto zmuffin. if he's scum idk how much sense this makes given he was originally perfectly fine with SAD/Titus. his trajectory on zmuffin and subsequent interactions also felt legitimate.

Why don't you think it was possible he thought the push on Muffin wouldn't get through? Why did the trajectory on Muffin + subsequent interactions feel nor-scumbuddy?

I found a really awesome tell on GIF and if he's scum here that means said tell is wrong.

I don't think your tell is accurate. Take it away, are you still confident GiF is town?

I have no energy for mafia atm. I have strong townreads on BBQ, Sakura, and Proph and I need to figure out where I'm going terribly wrong and I literally do not have enough time and energy to figure this out right now. I won't tolerate any lynch besides you today bc you're literally the last one left and I was confident enough about those reads that I can say there's no way 2 of them are wrong

if Proph is scum, what was he trying to do there? if he wanted a mislynch, he could have just stayed on SAD/Titus, and on the other hand, if he was bussing, he probably would have gone for zmuffin sooner instead of bouncing back and forth for a while. it could be a bus but not sure atm

it is possible, but why don't you go one step further and try to figure out IF that's actually what he was thinking or not? there was support all around for a zmuffin lynch and given how low he was on a lot of people's POE lists he was almost certainly going to be lynched at some point. this feels like you're trying to smokescreen me by asking me questions I can't answer. the trajectory is kind of hard to explain bc it's mostly gut but all of his posts seemed like they were coming from an angle of trying to figure out zmuffin's alignment and his push was matched with a solid level of aggression as the evidence built up.

no, but why should I take away a tell that's 100%? or are you just trying to manipulate me into following you on BBQ?

What happened to the counterwagon tell? How exactly did you drop that strong towntell so... easily? Why did you stop pushing Sakura?

Nacho what the hell

you ask me why I'm not reevaluating my reads, but then when Proph does

that exact same thing

you start attacking him for it?

this makes no sense. this whole thing feels like you're just BS'ing as opposed to actually trying to figure shit out

I have had moments of paranoia, sure, but in the end the townSakura that showed up here was the old town Sakura levels that you couldn't quite reach before. I have seen scumgames where you've attempted to replicate it, and you've come close, but you haven't been able to reach it quite yet.

Which is why pie's read on you is worrying: he should be able to see that better than anyone else.

why do you think the fact I'm not sure about Sakura is worrying considering

1. you have experience with me and Sakura in the same game and how I'm always paranoid as fuck about her? like really? I find it impossible that you actually believe I can read Sakura "better than anyone else". remember pick & ban? I'm almost positive there was some discussion about how I'm always paranoid of her in that game and you were there to see it (and I know you saw it bc you commented about my Sakura push in that game and said I was doing a "bangup job scumhunting").
2. she's not even my first pick for 2nd scum right now. she's just the one who makes the most sense as your partner. and the reason I don't have her as first pick is, OH LOOK AT THAT, I had such a strong townread on her (I even posted a massive towncase on her earlier)


tl;dr: you're asking a bunch of questions to lead everyone around in a circle so you don't get lynched. plus there is so much cognitive dissonance here it's not even funny and I get the feeling you're just BS'ing at this point. and not to mention I'm way better at reading GIF than I am at Sakura. so the fact that you're selectively discounting my GIF read and then holding ME to a BOP of reading SAKURA is, guess what? scummy as fuck. die :>

Why was I so confident when I found SAD scum as opposed to Xenoblade? Well, in Xenoblade, SAD was a lurkfucking and didn't do shit and the reason I found him scummy was thanks to a faulty POE process where I was town reading all of the scum. Here, he had shit interactions with scum and was scummy in an active way, and thus I felt a hell of a lot better about it.

In Mistakes uPick, I lost. In Marketplace, I pushed hard for mislynches in a pretty systematic way until LyLo when I was sitting on my hands and waiting for an opportunity to quickhammer. My zeroing and killing time was when I zeroed in on and killed SAD, but that didn't result in good things so why exactly do you expect me to continue playing in the same exact way? Every single person alive was a townread for me at some point: considering I'm looking for two scum, that should be a bit of a problem, don't you think?

You are POEing me as one scum when two need to be found. I am not scum. This means there's something fundamentally wrong with your process so of course I'm going to challenge you on it: when you don't feel good about me being scum when you read my posts and when you have absolutely no idea who my partner would be, there's a problem and you should be reanalyzing instead of just going along with the lynch.

Why is it an invalid move for Proph to move off from SAD/Titus and distance for a little while? Why would he move onto Muffin earlier if he was looking to bus?

I'm asking you questions you can't answer because they're holes in your read.

I'm asking you to take away the tell because it's probably not 100%.

I am asking Proph where he made switches and why he made them: one of the great parts about reevaluating is that it's supposed to be fairly transparent as opposed to switches that just happen. My problems with the changes obviously aren't because there were changes, but because there were changes for no reason.

You know Sakura better than anyone else in this game. I would expect you to be able to see what makes her town, what makes her scum better than anyone else in the game regardless of whether you have a tendency to scumread her or not.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Vig + Jailkeeper + Masons + Gunsmith seems excessive against a JOAT, Encryptor and not-Roleblocker (I refuse to believe scum would kill RC if they could just Roleblock him). All of those roles are fairly powerful, scum counters so far not so much so.

[Casso the King of Seals]

rhouht there was a maf. doc flip?

and, I dont really agree Vig isnt that powerful a role, especially when it serves to be a miller as well. encryptor is somewhat powerful, but... and, if the game is mostly vt/goon, the jk is rendered pretty much useless and ( I think) the mass claim has proven as such alomg with tje dead townsmen

Millers are scummy roles that are usually mislynched somewhere during the game.
Vigs give town an extra lynch when used properly and can confirm themselves as town: outs gunsmith if gunsmith targets vig, but there aren't the greatest chances of that happening.

JK is stronger early game for protection purposes and late game for blocking purposes and generally are the strongest protective roles on the market.

[Casso the King of Seals]

also, depending on the powers empire gave the JOAT, it can be an extemely powerful role

What exactly could the JOAT have that makes it so powerful?
Make the most stacked JOAT you can imagine in a normal game.

[Casso the King of Seals]

id also like it if you could answer my question on sak. I am confused as to where you stand on her and why

She's still town: Thor misinterpreted my answer to pie about why I suspected Sakura on Day 1 as a "this is why I suspect Sakura" piece of writing.

[Casso the King of Seals]

@Korean

Who are your remaining suspects, and why isn't your vote on anyone?

The people who are going to be lynched toDay are either Casso or you, with a random stray vote on me that isn't going to pan out.

If you don't think Casso is scum, and if you won't vote yourself, and you don't understand why Casso is voting me right now.. who do you want to lynch toDay, and why? And why aren't you pushing them, instead of active lurking the Day out?

---

I agree that the early votecounts make you look town, but I don't trust myself on mafiascum meta, and I've heard that it has more.. aberrations wagons like that. Your behavior in-thread has not inspired me, and the total lack of zMuffin interactions is telling. Both of those, plus PoE, trump vote count analysis in the end.

It's basic interaction analysis and PoE - you are the only person that fits in the likely worlds.

And do you remember how did we nabbed zMuffinMan in the first place?

Mafiascum wagons being strange means that you can ignore wagons that make BBQ look town but wagons that make him look like scum are still okay?

Really?

[Casso the King of Seals]

Why was I so confident when I found SAD scum as opposed to Xenoblade? Well, in Xenoblade, SAD was a lurkfucking and didn't do shit and the reason I found him scummy was thanks to a faulty POE process where I was town reading all of the scum. Here, he had shit interactions with scum and was scummy in an active way, and thus I felt a hell of a lot better about it.

In Mistakes uPick, I lost. In Marketplace, I pushed hard for mislynches in a pretty systematic way until LyLo when I was sitting on my hands and waiting for an opportunity to quickhammer. My zeroing and killing time was when I zeroed in on and killed SAD, but that didn't result in good things so why exactly do you expect me to continue playing in the same exact way? Every single person alive was a townread for me at some point: considering I'm looking for two scum, that should be a bit of a problem, don't you think?

You are POEing me as one scum when two need to be found. I am not scum. This means there's something fundamentally wrong with your process so of course I'm going to challenge you on it: when you don't feel good about me being scum when you read my posts and when you have absolutely no idea who my partner would be, there's a problem and you should be reanalyzing instead of just going along with the lynch.

Why is it an invalid move for Proph to move off from SAD/Titus and distance for a little while? Why would he move onto Muffin earlier if he was looking to bus?

I'm asking you questions you can't answer because they're holes in your read.

I'm asking you to take away the tell because it's probably not 100%.

I am asking Proph where he made switches and why he made them: one of the great parts about reevaluating is that it's supposed to be fairly transparent as opposed to switches that just happen. My problems with the changes obviously aren't because there were changes, but because there were changes for no reason.

You know Sakura better than anyone else in this game. I would expect you to be able to see what makes her town, what makes her scum better than anyone else in the game regardless of whether you have a tendency to scumread her or not.

I feel fine with you being scum bc of your posts and the reason I don't know your partner is bc I literally haven't put in enough analysis to figure it out. where'd you get the idea I don't? bc I feel like you're putting words in my mouth

it's not impossible but if he was planning to bus zmuffin he probably would have done so immediately given that's his agenda. but instead it came across as genuine. however, I could see it as a bus especially bc the whole point is to look as natural as possible

you're one of the people I read p much entirely by POE. if it reaches late game, everyone else is town, and I haven't seen anything especially town from you, then I assume you're scum. it's how I pegged you in both IN and marketplace and it's also how I read ppl like zmuffin. the point is, you're asking me questions about what I find especially scummy in your posts when I'VE ALREADY SAID IT'S ENTIRELY POE AND IT'S BC EVERYONE ELSE IS MORE TOWN THAN YOU. this is what I mean when I say "leading everyone around in circles" - you're asking me smth that's completely unrelated to my actual point bc I don't have an answer for it. this is scum motivated thought

what the fuck @ last sentence? if I have a tendency to scumread her, I obviously don't know what makes her town or what makes her scum bc if I did I'd be able to read her every time. so this literally contradicts itself. and on top of that YOU HAVE EXPERIENCE WITH BOTH ME AND SAKURA IN THE SAME GAME and how I tend to misread the shit out of her and am still paranoid as fuck about her even if I have a townread on her. so why would you think this?

You have the most experience with Sakura, meaning you know her play style better than most and generally won't read her off play style things. This translates into you knowing how to read her better than most. What about this explanation isn't clicking for you? Results in reading accuracy don't always translate into ability to read accurately.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Vote proph!

[Casso the King of Seals]

Vote proph!

So you think that Muffin was trying to bus his buddy?

Why not?

[Casso the King of Seals]

Vote proph!

What was your reason for voting him right after voting me again?

I voted you and it didn't feel right. So then I voted Proph, it felt a little better, so here's where our vote stays.

[Casso the King of Seals]

I'm not even sure what Nacho was hoping I would add to this galactic mess.
Is he town reading BBQ right now?

[Casso the King of Seals]

She's still town: Thor misinterpreted my answer to pie about why I suspected Sakura on Day 1 as a "this is why I suspect Sakura" piece of writing.

I guess that explains why people derp faced when i was like 'Nacho suspects Sakura'.

...though I quoted it and no one explained anything. Who the hell was that conversation with?
And it was Marangal. Useless annoyance is useless and annoying.

Nacho also will only talk to me to tell me to post, but can't seem to figure out how to utilize gchat, whilst meanwhile I'm still off and on with a service that is pretty convinced that QT is the apocalypse in web format.

Nacho, why do you not just want to lynch BBQ? I wouldn't mind a BBQ lynch. Proph is useless, but is he scum useless or just generic useless? These are questions, PM, gchat, whatevs.

I personally think BBQ is trying to avoid getting into the debate, whilst Proph looks to be trying to get him in it...eh, I'll go ahead and accept that as a scumteam vibe, is that what you're seeing? Sort of a half bus of fail or something?

[Casso the King of Seals]

Apparently yes.

And yet, there continues to be no apparent reason why.

Do you have a Sakura case, or do you just not want to be caught voting town and don't want to bus your partner right now?

[Casso the King of Seals]

I'm not even sure what Nacho was hoping I would add to this galactic mess.
Is he town reading BBQ right now?

If by town reading you mean "strongly believe this player is town and would not lynch", then no. I don't think BBQ is the play of the day, though: I think Proph slot looks considerably worse.

[Casso the King of Seals]

I hate you Nacho.

[Casso the King of Seals]

I hate you Nacho.

This is why I wanted you to post more!

[Casso the King of Seals]

remember this wagon from IN:

no vc last night on account of i was drunk

Votecount 1.8

[3]

MafiaSSK

(

zMuffinMan

,

BROseidon

,

Psychlone

)
[2]

BROseidon

(

thenewearth

,

mastin2

)
[2]

pieguyn

(

Varsoon

,

Mac

)
[2]

thenewearth

(

pieguyn

,

thezmon221

)
[1]

Morph the Cat

(

waynegg

)

[3] Not Voting (

MafiaSSK

,

Morph the Cat

,

Ghostly Penguin

)

With 13 alive, it is 7 to lynch.

Let me know if you see any problems.

Deadline is in (expired on 2013-11-14 13:00:00)

Nacho and zmuffin were both scum and they all piled on this wagon to manipulate the VCA. so that wagon in no way implies Casso/Proph team is impossible and we shouldn't discount the possibility justbc of that

That was muffin and I trolling in a game because rolling scum partners together twice back to back was absolutely ridiculous, scumteam was stacked, and so we trolled the whole time. Third time being partners back to back would probably involve blacklists and in thread duets, not the same strategy as the game we just got out of.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Subject: Micro 258: Pick & Ban (Game Over!)

town
3. DoctorPepper
4. Hanasawa Neonizer
6. pieguyn
7. Sakura
8. HeyArnold (Bert + fuzzybutternut)
9. 50 Shades of Purple (Nachomamma8 + pirate mollie)

null-town
2. morph the cat (fferyllt + Cabd)

PoE
1. Shiny Hydreigon (3H hydra)
5. Skelda

game over

either that or I have too many damn townreads @_@

Pick and Ban.

[Casso the King of Seals]

AKA yes, you're always paranoid of her, but you've never demonstrated that you're incompetent or bad at reading her, so yes it is perfectly understandable to assume that you're able to read her here. Assuming that we're scum partners is dumb because it requires you to believe that Sakura and I are capable of faking the Day 1 that went down as scum, you have to assume I knew she was going to be comfortable with me bussing the hell out of her Day 1 and her pulling off the fake meltdown she's been trying for forever to replicate (closest was OCR, correct?), and believe that the play we've put out after that point is within the realms of fake ability for both of us. You also have to assume I'd be comfortable enough as her partner to have her as my only townread in 7p, which is also :S considering I would have had to bus the hell out of everyone else.

[Casso the King of Seals]

You have the most experience with Sakura, meaning you know her play style better than most and generally won't read her off play style things. This translates into you knowing how to read her better than most. What about this explanation isn't clicking for you? Results in reading accuracy don't always translate into ability to read accurately.

if I read her better than most then my reads on her should obviously be accurate considering I'D KNOW HOW TO READ HER. but they're not and I always misread her. so I obviously don't know how to read her. your implication in the last sentence is backwards - if I can read her accurately, than my read on her should be accurate. since it's not, I can't read her

you should also know how hard it is to actually read her considering that newbie game where everything she did was intended to fool you. given she's capable of shit like that, why are you so surprised I'm not sure about her?

also why would you expect me to be able to see town Sakura considering YOU YOURSELF WERE SCUMREADING HER ON D1 AND THOUGHT HER PLAY DIDN'T FEEL LIKE THE USUAL SAKURA? if you actually believed this then you shouldn't be so surprised that I'm not sure on her either, especially when the only reason you gave for townreading her afaik was her response to the wagon on D1. you're asking me to see smth that you don't even think is there. so what's going on? this feels like smth you just made up after I called you on your false BOP argument

ON DAY 1
I WAS SCUMREADING SAKURA ON DAY 1
AFTER THAT SHE HAS COMPLETELY BEEN THE USUAL SAKURA

[Casso the King of Seals]

Or do you mean me having trouble sorting her out initially means that I should be having trouble sorting her out on Day 8?
Because I really hope that isn't the case.

[Casso the King of Seals]

F-16 and Norl both wanted to lynch Casso and Tammy was expressing suspicion of him

besides that I don't think Proph matters here and I don't wanna speculate too much on NKs for no reason. the major point with all the kills is probably to get rid of threats to Casso. I don't wanna rule ppl out just bc of NKs when it probably doesn't even matter

on top of that I don't think it makes any more sense if you swap in BBQ or you. Norl was scumreading BBQ but I don't know if that means anything

This is also bullshit, by the way.
F-16 would occasionally get paranoid of me, then we would interact, then he would call me town. I was never a strong suspect of his.
Nor, suspected me for a majority of the game. Then he decided there was a good possibility I was town, then he died. He also never really went after me.
Tammy went "oh Casso might be scum" before we interacted. Please find me a game where Tammy hasn't called me scum before we interacted (hint: there isn't a game that exists).
Geists was also killed! Geists didn't have us as a scumread. In fact, geists had us as the opposite of a scumread.

[Casso the King of Seals]

if Casso flips town I'm completely lost. which is another reason I wanna lynch him immediately (information)

shooting from the ass, Proph + one of you/BBQ bc the way Nero tried to 1v1 you earlier. and

if I really have to pick between you and BBQ I'll probably just suicide although I'd lean towards BBQ

this also suggests you're now very strongly town reading Sakura
Although you weren't strongly toe reading Sakura before and we are having a discussion about how you're always paranoid of her?

[Casso the King of Seals]

Hey pieguy, both of your scumreads are at L-1 what does that tell you.

That pie is scum, Thor is right, and Nacho isn't talking to me.

[Casso the King of Seals]

"Hey Thor, go post, I not communicate nothing!"

Well whoop-de-doo, Nacho. WHat do you want? Would you like me to just...push your case you're not even talking to me about for you or something?
@Sakura - yo, vote Nacho's case, he's too lazy to say gak about it. Huzzah! Brilliance!

There, done and done.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Though it looks like I am wearing him down about Pie...hurm...sexy.

@Sakura - clearly the hammer is yours. Do yourself a favor and at least post up your thoughts about each wagon. I don't know what your case is on either of us really (or lack thereof) but I am confident that i am willing to call whatever your case on this slot is to be dumb. I'm good like that. Also, I'll admit honest curiosity as regards the Proph case - does it hold water in your head?

If it totally doesn't, and you're neutral on lynching me, would you like to do a counterwagon on Pie? Nacho may eventually communicate with me and we can sort this noise out. Also, I'll admit BBQ voting for Proph over me just leaves me personally flummoxed. So maybe Pie/Proph makes sense? Maybe that's why Nacho is starting to talk my way even as he doesn't talk and apparently is living some weird nomad existence somewhere between his home and Canada.

[Casso the King of Seals]

you mean vote BBQ like i'm already doing? or did I miss something.

You missed the big wagons and what is happening with them. BBQ scum has little justification not to vote me, unless your theory is me/BBQ ( ) and if that's the case you should vote me in any case.
Make sense now?

[Casso the King of Seals]

I have been pretty open about me flitting in and out.
Okay, so you think i am town - so, if BBQ is scum, why wouldn't he justify hammering me right now?

[Casso the King of Seals]

I mean, just a few days ago I had him spitting at me, and now he decides to float the other way (presumably because of something semi-non-insulting Nacho must have posted (I mean, obviously) but scumBBQ seems to have fine justification for voting my slot. He then went the other way, that = town BBQ unless my math is wonky or you think he's playing some oddball long game.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Eh that's a good point, but then pie/proph doesnt make sense...

Well, I guess if there's only one scum this won't matter - but what do you see ruling out pie/proph as a team?
(said Thor unwilling to give up Pie if Proph flips scum)

[Casso the King of Seals]

Hurm, maybe. My only issue with that was the order he wanted.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Though it looks like I am wearing him down about Pie...hurm...sexy.

@Sakura - clearly the hammer is yours. Do yourself a favor and at least post up your thoughts about each wagon. I don't know what your case is on either of us really (or lack thereof) but I am confident that i am willing to call whatever your case on this slot is to be dumb. I'm good like that. Also, I'll admit honest curiosity as regards the Proph case - does it hold water in your head?

If it totally doesn't, and you're neutral on lynching me, would you like to do a counterwagon on Pie? Nacho may eventually communicate with me and we can sort this noise out. Also, I'll admit BBQ voting for Proph over me just leaves me personally flummoxed. So maybe Pie/Proph makes sense? Maybe that's why Nacho is starting to talk my way even as he doesn't talk and apparently is living some weird nomad existence somewhere between his home and Canada.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Casso the King of Seals]

HALLEFUCKINGLUJAH

[Casso the King of Seals]

Also, random semi-serious question - does my rage at all convey the same with that seal face next to it?
I feel like I'm less convincing nowadays.

Edit: Nacho! Check PMs! Answer PMs. Seriously now!

[Casso the King of Seals]

If Proph flips scum I'll still claim credit for it though, just fyi, Nach.

[Casso the King of Seals]

I don't use multiple exclamation points. It's the sign of a unstable mind.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Food for thought:

Pie is clearing Proph because of the way he wagoned Muffin. Proph is clearing Pie because "oh, what are you guys seeing?". Proph said that we're getting voted because interactions analysis and POE. Proph is still paranoid of the masons, has strong reasoning to call KoreanBBQ town (Day 1 wagon), has strong reason to call us town (interactions), hasn't brought up shit to call pie town.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Ms Marangal,

Town Mason

, killed Night 8.

It is now Day 9! Deadline is on April 7th at 4:50 PM EST or in (expired on 2014-04-07 16:46:39).

ITT scum pulls a final attempt to frame pieguy

VOTE: Casso

No, that's absolute bullshit. The only thing last nights kill does is fuck me-scum over because now a majority (pieguy, you, good morning) is adamantly against me instead of supporting me.

So... try again.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Ms Marangal,

Town Mason

, killed Night 8.

It is now Day 9! Deadline is on April 7th at 4:50 PM EST or in (expired on 2014-04-07 16:46:39).

ITT scum pulls a final attempt to frame pieguy

VOTE: Casso

No, that's absolute bullshit. The only thing last nights kill does is fuck me-scum over because now a majority (pieguy, you, good morning) is adamantly against me instead of supporting me.

So... try again.

You're expecting 2 scums left though.
You're speaking as if 1 scum is left.
Anyway, in 2 scums left scenario, I would gladly take a flank to carry the other member to victory if I was scum. I believe in saccing so unless mara kill hurts both pie-casso or sakura-casso, that line of reasoning doesn't work.

If you act town enough, I may take a leap of faith and ask myself to be lynched first

Why would you do this in a HIGHLY LIKELY LyLo? This isn't a town line of thought.

it's not a scum line of thoughts either.
This is GIF being ridiculously crazy and daring.

It would benefit my team to get another mislynch. The current setup is the likeliest end result for a Casso lynch, and thus isn't advantageous to my team at all.

[Casso the King of Seals]

And your scumread on pie is full of Smurf btw
You should know better than me that there's something scum pie can't fake.
You played with him more than I did so you should know that.
With that terrible read I can't townread you ever

What is this magical thing I should know about Pie?
Are you even paying attention to my case on Pie?

@Nacho - 24 hours, get in touch with me or I'm voting Pie.

also, BBQ and Casso were scumreading each other before BBQ moved Casso down and put a lynch order where they win if they're both scum, yet both their votes went to Proph. this should really not be happening at this point in the game and it makes me think scum x scum.

At least I make sense as everyone's scumbuddy.
Derp tell is derp, that tell, even if you thought you had something, says nothing about my alignment because the extent of my application to it is 'BBQ sheeped my vote after suspecting me, and I didn't have an issue with him voting a player I was calling his scumbuddy'
Pie solution: call Casso scum with BBQ.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Thor wanting to lynch me for S all reasoning makes me think of his scum play in TWD.

Okay, I tap - what is TWD an acronym for?

[Casso the King of Seals]

Also, there's no way, whatever that game is, that I, as scum, presented no reasoning for a lynch I was pushing. I'll put my money on the line for that sight unseen.