NY 161: Overly-Posh Mafia (POSH WIN - NIGHT X)

[TheUnderachivers]

What, no love for me???

As much as I'd like to revenge lynch you, I can't stand trolls so I'd be plenty happy to policy lynch one.

This is a terrible case that you completely manipulated to make Pirate Mollie look back

So you have a town read on IAI and a scum read on Hero but both find Mollie scummy. Why do the reads differ?

Still p convinced you're scum though Vifam even tho Hero is probtown

Why do you think Hero is town

Vifam, why do you care more about Matts town read on Hero and not his scum read on you?

-N

[TheUnderachivers]

[quote="

IAI's and Hero's same read on Mollie means that a read on them should be the same?

no but both Hero and IAI have some similar talking points.

+Mollie does look pretty scummy.

Mollie: Why are you not voting your scum reads?

[TheUnderachivers]

^^^^

Nero btw

[TheUnderachivers]

Mastin and Nero out of hydra posts

Spoiler:

Hi, guys.

As a warning, our hydra hasn't been activated quite yet. So we can't play yet.

This is going to be my sole out of hydra post.

We are killing Bitmap today. Make it so.

vote:Bitmap

This is going to be my sole out of hydra post.

But I need to make one more.

Mod:

My half of the hydra will be V/LA over the weekend.


Btw, TheReverand is pretty much confscum. Moz is bad, but not as bad.
I'll elaborate as soon as the damn hydra account is activated. (It STILL isn't.)

fuck it. Tired of waiting on my hydra.

vote:chk

wanted to what happened.

[TheUnderachivers]

naw. Nope. I'd love to hear your "reasoning".

So no one wants to lynch Josh lyman with me?

[TheUnderachivers]

As a side note to everyone voting Mollie under the premise of her interactions with Mozamis; Why not just vote Mozamis?

'cause Mollie prob is scum.

We should be killing Josh Lyman today.

vote: Josh Lyman

[TheUnderachivers]

'cause he's your buddy.

[TheUnderachivers]

oh so you know he's not a member of the mafia. Thanks for scum claiming.

[TheUnderachivers]

Who said I'm doing that? I did vote CHK for a reason but I was and didn't want to admit it so I said that I'm "testing reactions" but yea...I'm not doing that.

-N

[TheUnderachivers]

Who said I'm doing that? I did vote CHK for a reason but I was wrong and didn't want to admit it so I said that I'm "testing reactions" but yea...I'm not doing that.

FIFY!!!

null town.



Why don't you explain the vote on me and I'll explain Josh. I voted CHK 'cause Mastin said he was scummy for saying that he'd be sheeping Boner but didn't follow up with a vote. I had agreed 'cause I remembered Police vote hopping. But when Boner asked me why I was gonna quote. So I ended up reading his ISO and and he may not follow all the same votes but his vote is resting on Boner's biggest suspect so I changed my mind.

[TheUnderachivers]

cool story bro.

[TheUnderachivers]

Oh he's posting all over the site while ignoring this game.

I also have some questions for you.

Why do you think Hero is voting Mollie.

Why do you think IAI is voting Mollie?

[TheUnderachivers]

Well when I read them it looked like Hero didn't like PM calling Moz town (aside from the meta stuff). He then thought the two were scum together. IAI also didn't like Mollie calling Moz town. He also made a conection and thought the two might be scum together. So....looks pretty similar to me. With that in mind Boner calling IAI town and Hero scum didn't really mesh. But read the cases, I'm apparently stupid and maybe I made a mistake.

+I'm not a real big fan of Mollie calling folks scum but not voting any of them.

[TheUnderachivers]

Prob scum but you vote someone else in the same vote. Cute. Why shouldn't we lynch you?

'cause I'm town. Stop playing against a town wincon.

Also, present me a mollie case independent of Mozamis.

already did ya noob.

[TheUnderachivers]

Mollie is still ignoring me and won't tell me why she's not voting while calling people scum.

Dunno if Ma Jiffy is scum or stupid. He's calling me scummy for not voting Mollie but he's not worried about Mollie calling multiple people scummy but not voting.

-N

[TheUnderachivers]

vote: Mollie

[TheUnderachivers]

so if you are town how about you help me by giving me some space so I can do my thing

I can do this. I didn't like you ignoring my question. What do you think of Ma Jiffy accusing me of not voting who I called scum but ignoring you?

[TheUnderachivers]

I think mozi is town, herorobmist as town, I waffle with bonermatt, rev's hard reset looks genuine, om leaning townish but unsure, vifam town, chickflip as town. I kind of had bitmap as town but unsure. still lean town on him. penguin is looking better.

I have a similar set of reads, though vifam is a scum read.

You wanna kill Josh Lyman or uberninja with me?

vote: Josh Lyman

[TheUnderachivers]

Scum. Calls me obvscum, then has nothing further to say to me when I mock the strength of his attack?

For the record Mastin was v/la over the weekend so blasting him for not responding to your mockery is rather dumb.

I

don't agree.

-N

[TheUnderachivers]

I'd rather not spend too much extra time here when we can use it tomorrow with some extra flips.

This is straight up scum. Today is our longest day. It behooves us to spend the day talking among us. But you want to hurry up the day and go into 4 day deadlines were it'll be quicklynches and most likely mislynches. Fuck no scum.

Vote:AJ

[TheUnderachivers]

When AJ flips scum we should lynch Matt next.

[TheUnderachivers]

That's pretty funny coming from a guy that's voted like half the players in the game.

[TheUnderachivers]

You know who says "this is not a scumtell" scum.

+ its like like this is the first time that I've mentioned that I suspected you.

AJ is very very likely to be scum, the fact that you aren't jumping on his wagon is extremely telling. Or are you just waiting for it to pick up so you can jump on later?

[TheUnderachivers]

Does this combo deal make you nervous underachievers?

nope

[TheUnderachivers]

Mastin/Nero your reads votes and posts are pretty bullshit.

awesome. But then again someone says that every game...then those "shitty" reads" turn into like half the scum team.

As of 01-27-2013

10:38 AM ET (US)

My scum reads were:
Matt P
JacobSavage
UberNinja
Josh Lyman
Vifam
I Am Innocent
Majiffy
pirate mollie
Aj the Epic

If you want to know Mastin's reads I can look them up.

Oh look Matt is a "universal town read" liar liar pants on fire.

[TheUnderachivers]

I'm not my brothers keeper!!!
He posted on Friday and gave some reads like I already said.


Day 1 is the best day for scumhunting so no reason to rush and end it when A.( we have no lynch yet and B.( there are still players catching up. So we’ll talk in a few days.

how the fuck can you have scum-reads on half the game.

'cause half the town is scummy, we have no flips and there are gonna be like 5-6 scum anyways.

scum reads so you can be comfortable lynching anyone.

that's right. All 20 players besides me are scum. So I can lynch anyone I want at anytime 'cause everyone is scum.

[TheUnderachivers]

seemed willing to work with me but unwilling to move his

I did take my vote off of you. You are correct that I didn't move it immediately but still.

Okay so Archivers hops on AJ for not wanting to spend extra time on a game that has a bankable fucking deadline.
Why can't we lynch him already

Agree.

UNVOTE
VOTE UNDERACHIEVERS

Don't listen to vifam's lies. AJ wanted to

END THE DAY

, not spend extra time. In a way it looks pro-town but he's basically asking for a quick lynch.

As I said earlier, I don't see anything scummy about going for Josh earlier, as ill advised as I believe that to be, but I see no feasible way for that to have somehow bridged into post #1035 where so many people are scum reads without a whole lot of reference or interaction with many of them. There's no attempt to reconcile the large number of scum reads either.

So you don't think I'm scummy for going for Josh but....I'm still scum? The hell? Its a 21 player game and there are gonna be like 5-6 scum. I don't see why my suspecting multiple suspects is "bad". Casting a wider net is more likely to hit scum. Unless you are scum and you know that I'm off there's no reason to attack me for suspecting others. So its like your voting me for the sake of voting? Was my town read on you wrong?

-N

[TheUnderachivers]

@Under-

Where is Mastin? I can't seem to locate his posts.

Hasn't been post in the thread or the qt.

[TheUnderachivers]

well since Friday. He's back now.

[TheUnderachivers]

Still p convinced you're scum though Vifam even tho Hero is probtown

Why do you think Hero is town

Don't really like how Vifam is more concerned with Matts town read on Hero than his read on his own slot.

Also note how Matt was calling Hero probtown and pushes on him later.

I really really do believe that Hero’s Mollie case and IAI’s Mollie case were almost identical. So I think asking why he had found Hero scummy and IAI townie was a valid question. AJ and Vifam rushing in to attack me/defend Matt doesn’t really give me good vibes. Or IAI was just shadowing Hero here. So maybe they are defending IAI instead of Matt.

Savage has just been weird this whole game. How does

ANYONE

have a town read on this slot. And how does anyone have a problem with me suspecting him?

I don’t like lurkers and I think its a slight scumtell for a player to ignore one game and post/play in others. Thats why I was voting Lyman. Though the fact that he didn’t pick up his prod and was replaced means he likely wasn’t doing this and I like Action Dan a bit so yeah.

Didn’t like Ma’s selective scumhunting when it came to Mollie. And I didn’t like Mollie’s light suspicion of Ma. But I do like some of her (Mollie’s) replies.

[TheUnderachivers]

quote="In post 656, MattP"]-

Pirate Mollie

-

Uberninja

-theunderarchivers (Nero and Mastin2)
-

Josh Lyman

(where the fuck is this guy)
-PeregrineV
-

JacobSavage

-Mozamis
-Herobrine
-Lord Mhork
^At least 4 of the 5 scums are here positive[/quote]
This post from Matt (if he’s scum) made me think I was on the right track with the bolded names.

UN’s fake aggression meta play is stupid and scummy. Though I did like his attack of Matt.

insinuating flipflopiness is in ANY way a scumtell

This is a "this is not a scumtell" post which is far more likely to come from scum instead of town.

I also think this is very dumb from Vifam.

Also I think your questioning to boner is dumb & fake

but then

I don't know why IAI is voting Mollie because the post where he voted him I just glazed over it

So he’s blasting me for asking Boner a question that he doesn’t even understand why I’m asking. This is stupid.

[TheUnderachivers]

Its also a bit of POE since my town reads of varying degree are PeregrineV
Herobrine
borkjerfkin
mozamis
TheReverend
penguin_alien
chkflip
Bitmap
pirate mollie
Lord Mhork
ArcAngel9
ActionDan
zabriel


which leaves

Majiffy
I Am Innocent
Aj the Epic
MattP
JacobSavage
UberNinja
Vifam

[TheUnderachivers]

So, quicktopic seems to be down at the moment, which is quite inconvenient for me, since I was in the process of trying to do something.

This is mainly for Nero, but following through on my /m50, zabriel looks kinda town to me as well.

[TheUnderachivers]

This whole "ZOMG NERO HAS MORE THEN ONE SUSPECT" is stupid. I can understand it from the players that I haven't played with but the players like Majiffy, Zab whom I have just blows my mind.

[TheUnderachivers]

(And for the record--right now, I'm trusting Nero. Him? Caught up. Me? Waaaaaay back on page 7.
Yup. You heard that right. Not 37, 27, or even 17. 7.

Butyeah, he's going to have to convince me on Vifam, who I see as kinda townish. I also skimmed AJ, and while I concluded it was possible AJ was scum, I didn't conclude it was probable, soyeah, hydra dissonance ahoy. )

[TheUnderachivers]

(Speaking of hydra dissonance, Hero's iso looks horribad to me and Nero's going to have to explain to my quite well why he has them as town.
Other than that, I either agree or have no opinion on all of his reads.
If I stopped slacking off, then maybe I'd get something more concrete, but honestly, my head's really not in this game. Delayed hydra activation, extreme number of pages which I couldn't actively follow along with, and weekend.)

[TheUnderachivers]

tl;dr: UA, show me the similarities between my case on Mollie and IAI's case on Mollie.

Your case was "I has meta that sez Mollie is scum/Mollie has a town read on Mos for no reason + I think that Mollie and Moz r scum 2gether"

IAI was like "oh yea, I don't like Mollie giving Moz a town read + Mollie flips scum we lynch Moz

It was the same shit. What o you think IAI's case on Mollie was?

[TheUnderachivers]

...And to give you a better idea of just

how

not in the game I am...

I fully realize we're the lead wagon. I fully realize that we're likely going to be lynched, 'specially since I haven't been posting. (Oh, and btw, I'd like to give a massive

HoS

to anyone asking where I was over the weekened that has played with me; they'd KNOW that I don't post then.)

...But I'm so apathetic for this game that I honestly DGAF about it.
I'd barely even consider it to be a lynch. I'd barely even consider it to have been me in the game, since, well, I'm not. It'd be like I replaced in during the night only to be nightkilled. That's exactly how much devotion I'm feeling for the game at the moment.

...Yes, that's a horribad attitude, so yes, I'll do what I can to spark my interest, but quite frankly, right now, I aint.

[TheUnderachivers]

I think the main thing is that I don't trust Matt. So Matt pushing on Hero gives me townish vibes. His "me and IAI's case on Mollie was different!!! And your scummy for even thinking that they were the same." is stupid to me.

[TheUnderachivers]

Though Mastin, we should just be the day 1 lynch, save some time on the deadline and laugh at this pathetic town. Thay way they can lynch off the tail end of our wagon 'cause I bet it'll be choke full of scum.

[TheUnderachivers]

I think the main thing is that I don't trust Matt. So Matt pushing on Hero gives me townish vibes. His "me and IAI's case on Mollie was different!!! And your scummy for even thinking that they were the same." is stupid to me.

Eh, I skimmed Matt's iso and I don't really see much of a Hero push. (For that matter, I don't really see Matt as scum--certainly possible, yes, but I don't have a read one way or the other.)

Though Mastin, we should just be the day 1 lynch, save some time on the deadline and laugh at this pathetic town. Thay way they can lynch off the tail end of our wagon 'cause I bet it'll be choke full of scum.

Nah, not my style to laugh at people from the dead QT when I'm lynched.
Nightkilled, sure, yeah, I love to say "I told you so", but lynched? I figure that I probably deserved it and have no right to laugh.

Would be down for another game after we're dead here, though.

(Quicktopic being down is super annoying.)

[TheUnderachivers]

Oh come on, Matt's playing like AP was and pulling out the "this is not a scumtell" play.

Read Hero's and IAI's cases on Mollie. What do you think?

[TheUnderachivers]

Oh come on, Matt's playing like AP was and pulling out the "this is not a scumtell" play.

Read Hero's and IAI's cases on Mollie. What do you think?

Eh, like I said, it's fully possible he's scum, but his posts don't say he definitely is.
Side-note, forgot to mention it could be possible both he and Hero are scum, 'specially since I don't see much of a Hero push from him so whatever push there is could be bussing.

Butyeah, will check out the Hero/IAI cases.

[TheUnderachivers]

@Underarchers- You are at 7 votes. I wouldn't sweat it too much.

L-4 with no wagon even close to ours in size, and you think that we would be sweating?

My, my, whyever would we be doing that?

[TheUnderachivers]

Spoiler:

First, let's look at mollie's scum meta. In a recent game we played together, she replaced into a scum-team with me. One of the first things she said in the scum QT was her feelings on listing your read on a partner. She said the following:

awww, fuck it, rob next time you make a list of your reads keep in mind that scum almost always puts their scummates in the middle of their list, lol, listing is a tool to catch scum. they also almost always list their teammmates as null unless they are trying to get them lynched or they are confident in their skillz.

So mollie is extremely likely to list her partner as town/scum instead of null even when it doesn't make total sense to do so because she considers it an associative tell. This could potentially lead to her sounding forced when composing reads.

moziperson is obvconftown and has no idea how to act. also wagon speed. and look who was on it

This leads to a weird and forced read on Mozamis. Mollie lists him as "obvconftown". If Mozamis is ObvTown, then that suggests Mollie can point to specific posts that look like town or at least provide some good reasons for him being town. Instead, she simply can't.

your posts don't feel scummy to me. I like that you are questioning my town read even though I think you are being retarded.

I don't see how the absense of scumminess, which would mean null, turns into ObvConfTown. That doesn't compute for me. Note that the one actual reason she gives occurred AFTER she listed Mozamis as obvconftown.

moziperson is obvconftown and has no idea how to act

I'm flattered, but why I am "obvconftown"?
And, since I am town, why I would I want to "act"?

Mozamis' response to Mollie's original read on him sounded nervous to me. A townie wouldn't care exclusively about those who think they're town, I don't think. If they were going to ask for support for reads, I would think they would have done it earlier when people were forming the wagon on them. Scum wouldn't question a town read on them by someone other than a partner. Scum may question a town read on them by a partner if they thought their partner had slipped up and associated them. It could be distancing.

I should note that I'm questioning whether the last bit about Mozamis' response is confirmation bias on my part. It could be. Let me know if it doesn't look nervous in your opinion or that point is otherwise unfair.

Conclusion:

Vote
Unvote mollie

Wish I had a second vote to get Mozamis as well.

~Rob

Lol at mollie for giving moz a town read in 327.

@mollie, re 333 "moziperson is obvconftown and has no idea how to act. also wagon speed. and look who was on it" how was moz acting, and who on the wagon are you referring too? (I see in 335 u list penguin and hero as scum, yet hero has not voted for mozi....so one scummy person on the wagon makes you think mozi is town?) Also, just noticed the speed of the wagon is 4 votes at this time, lol...

Noting Moz's same questions to mollie in 385. Not sure what this means yet.

Followed by a terrible vote in 387 by moz for penguin

Majiffy and Hero's followup posts to maz are right along with my thinking. town points

@Moz, what specifically about PV's and Rob's case on penguin looked good to you?

@Vifam, what about moz's 399 did you specifically like?

If Moz flips scum, I would look at mollie (see above) and vifam (see 471 & 472).

@mollie, you say you like moz's questioning of your read, but that was AFTER you gave him a conftown read. What happened before that which made you give him that read. Also, you say ""act" as in behave not pretend." Does that mean that moz needs to behave, and not pretend, since earlier you said moz "has no idea how to act"

@moz's post 540, there is an ongoing game that I (and majiffy and PV and AJtheE) cannot talk about, but let's just say it would make sense if someone had fake vigged a claim in there which outted a real town vig in that one...all hypothetical of course. In other words, I could see why AJ would be concerned.

People I wouldn't mind seeing lynched today: Mollie, Moz, Om, Lord, Jacob, probably in that order

unvote Jacob
vote pirate mollie

Meh, maybe when analyzing in greater detail, I can make a better call, butyeah, these DO look pretty similar to my eyes atm. Then again, I can't actually see these very well 'til I hit submit, making side-by-side quite difficult.

[TheUnderachivers]

'Specially the bit 'bout Mollie forcing townreads.

[TheUnderachivers]

Oh, and for the record, am leaving for the night soon.
Might post in the QT later assuming quicktopic is actually working, but no more posting from me.

[TheUnderachivers]

its working now

[TheUnderachivers]

IAI's and Hero's same read on Mollie means that a read on them should be the same?

Its partly my fault for mis-wording the question,

I think

Mastin agrees (slightly? [or atleast understands where I'm coming from]) that the Mollie case from Hero and IAI are pretty similar. In my mind, if IAI is sheeping the case from Hero then Matt should have a similar read. Scum

usually

(unless its a bus/distance thing) attack town so if he thought Hero was scum then I think its a fair assumption that Matt thought Hero was attacking town. So IAI more or less sheeping Hero made me wonder why they were being treated differently. Scum often sheep cases so IAI sheeping the Hero case and Matt ignoring it seemed odd to me.

And then you and Vifam are all like "DON'T ASK MATT!!!"

[TheUnderachivers]

vote:JS

[TheUnderachivers]

Nero, was that you posting in 1002? Weren't you the one in the signup thread that had the bankable deadlines explained to you by the mod? If so, why do you appear to still not get it? "But you want to hurry up the day and go into 4 day deadlines were it'll be quicklynches and most likely mislynches"

That was me, he didn't "explain", just told me there were bankable dls. Anyways I'm down for the JS lynch since I know that I'm town.

He was talking to Hero.

[TheUnderachivers]

no try harder to suck.

[TheUnderachivers]

but I'm not scum you tool. Meanwhile ya'll let JS skate by. NO WAY. If JS flips scum we are lynching from whomever is not voting him.

[TheUnderachivers]

I hadn't even said anything about that? The fuck is this

never said you did , cum bucket.

[TheUnderachivers]

Majiffy
Matt P
Vifam
AJ
Savage
Ubernija


There's scum in there and at anytime that JS flips scum you guys go back to day 1 and lynch those that avoided JS

[TheUnderachivers]

More people need to ignore the current I_Am_Innocent and TheUnderachivers wagons and vote for pirate mollie.

Swtich Mollie with JS and this post is gold. JS is scum and everyone avoiding JS is suspect.

[TheUnderachivers]

Hey Ma, can you get off me so you can hammer me? Pretty sure you aren't town so lemme kill you.

[TheUnderachivers]

Shut up little cunt.

[TheUnderachivers]

I meant if anyone thinks I'm actually scum then ya'll are retarded but whatever. Town has no chance since Matt is scum and he'll run circles around you guys. But its all good.

[TheUnderachivers]

I totally agree with the IAI case...but again, not today. People need to vote Underachiveres (someone who you yourself say is scum in the post I quoted) to end the day and bank the deadline. DO IT NOW.

Screw what Nero says, you guys need to lynch this scumbag after we flip town, and IAI is probably town from this alone.

[TheUnderachivers]

Vifam (i'm confused here because mist said in an earlier post from the hydra that she was going to convince me vifam could be scummy, but she posted "townie" in her reads in the QT...so)

This is a scum hydra signature move. Trust the guy who's been in a number of scum hydras, and seen plenty more in operation.

I mean, yeah, the whole reads list is pretty abysmal and looks entirely faked, but this? This is what stands out like a sore thumb the most.

[TheUnderachivers]

Not quite sure what you're asking, there, AA. If you're asking who's the main wagon, that'd be us.
It's Mastin, here, only my partner's Nero rather than AP.

Herobrine is on our wagon, though I have no clue what the reasoning behind our wagon is. Haven't really bothered to look into that. Like you, my head isn't in the game, I haven't read most of it, though I've begun following along with the new posts since my first in-hydra post. Probably has to do with how Nero looks naturally suspicious, and that I wasn't posting. But mostly, all I see is that we need to be lynched for banking the deadline. AKA, no reason; they just want someone--anyone--dead.

[TheUnderachivers]

OMG, did you just admitted yourself that you are in wagon becuz you didn't want to do scum hunting?

No, we are BEING wagoned, for unknown reasons.

Though you're right, I'm incredibly lazy this game. I'm pretty much using the same read-only-from-replace-in strategy at the moment, with the 'replace in' in my case meaning my first inside-hydra post.

[TheUnderachivers]

Vifam (i'm confused here because mist said in an earlier post from the hydra that she was going to convince me vifam could be scummy, but she posted "townie" in her reads in the QT...so)

This is a scum hydra signature move. Trust the guy who's been in a number of scum hydras, and seen plenty more in operation.

I mean, yeah, the whole reads list is pretty abysmal and looks entirely faked, but this? This is what stands out like a sore thumb the most.

The hydra dissonance?

No. That exact line about being confused by your partner's reads and their transition. I've seen it from scum hydras, I've done it as a scum hydra. It's simply not a town hydra post.

[TheUnderachivers]

Basically--town hydras, in the QT, "why the heck do you have that read?!?"
"What changed your read?"
"I liked where you were going, what made you go elsewhere?" and such.
Alternatively, in the thread, "He thinks town, I think scum. *reasons* We're working it out."

Scum hydra, in the thread, "I don't know why he thinks scum, when I think town."

Essentially, is a modified version of the Amished tell, just that instead of saying "WHAT THE HECK WAS MY REPLACEMENT THINKING?!?" in-thread, you're saying "WHAT THE HECK WAS MY PARTNER THINKING?!" in-thread.

[TheUnderachivers]

Yo, UN, you scum?

You're dancing around our lynch, calling us scummy but not actually firmly saying we're scum.

Which, if my memory isn't betraying me (it is overly fond of stabbing me in the back ), was something you were rather fond of doing as scum in 1377.

[TheUnderachivers]

UberNinja

This is especially important, since you're in Nero's list of possible scum.

Why's that important?

Simple. The whole reason I wanted to hydra with Nero is that he's a better scumhunter than I am, his reads are consistently better than mine, his talent is extremely underrated, and in general, he nails scum a whole HECK of a lot more often than he doesn't.
...But lacks the charisma to actually get them lynched. Which is where I was supposed to come in.

(Nero apologized in our QT for pretty much letting us get lynched. I insisted that it's my fault, for not being here to be obvtown and bully y'all into sheeping Nero. )

[TheUnderachivers]

In fact...

Unvote,
Vote: UberNinja.

Sorry, Nero, but AJ's not a strong scumread of mine.

[TheUnderachivers]

What a bad post, trying to cover up Nero Cain's (and yours I guess) scumminess by claiming he's not "charismatic".

This is easily confirmable as the reason we're hydra'ing, both via PM exchanges and the post-game of Harry Potter Philosopher's Legacy, and (I believe) also Judge Jury and Executioner, where the idea of us hydra'ing first came up, if memory serves me.

I hold deep, deep respect for Nero's talent as a scumhunter. I have doubted him time and time again, only to see him be proven right. And every single time, he was ignored, despite every single time, being right.

And admit it. I'm Mastin.

All I have to do in order to become obvtown is post a lot every day, then bam! Bingo. People think I'm obvtown, and whatever scumminess my slot had melts away. (Temporarily. Always comes back later in the game.)
And time and time again, I maintain early-game towncred. People listen to me. I don't know WHY, exactly, I'm good at getting people to listen, but I am. Hence, why I'm charismatic. Yeah, later in the game, I'll have blown that towncred. Later in the game, I'll have people either ignoring me or doing the opposite of what I say--simply because I've been wrong long enough for it to either be scummy or justifiably ignorable, no matter how right I once was.


A Nero-Mastin hydra at full capacity would absolutely decimate the scumteam. We're just not at full capacity this game, since I haven't been upholding my end of the bargain.

Hence, why it's my fault.

But eh, I definitely think that this hydra will have another game. Lynched day one here, no biggie. Just grab the next game.

In the mean time, until we actually are, I might as well do what I can to help Nero perfect his reads.

[TheUnderachivers]

Majiffy
I Am Innocent
Aj the Epic
MattP
JacobSavage
UberNinja
Vifam

Add in Herobrine, and you have where I'm focusing. I don't really remember how many players are in the game, but I seem to recall this being somewhere between 20 and 25 (24? would have to check first post) meaning 4-5 scum, outside chance of six.

And Eight possible names.

So if I could cut that in half, it'd actually be useful.

[TheUnderachivers]

And secondly... I haven't gotten the feeling of you being obvtown despite the fact that you keep posting and posting and posting.

That's 'cause you're scum, Majiffy.

No, seriously. Anyone who actually is pushing the idea that we're a scum lynch is either an idiot or scum. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that this isn't my scum play. (Among other factors...name a single scum game of mine where I claimed VT.
Well, other than GvE, CvL where there was a

rolecop

and me claiming anything other than VT woulda ensured my lynch.
Legitimately, go look. Search for threads in mafia games where mastin2 has posted. You won't find any, because they don't exist. I always claim PR as scum, unless mechanics in the game prevent me from doing so.)

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that Nero was legitimately frustrated town.

Am I being blatantly obvtown, no. I'm not. But I'm obvtown all the same.


And as for Nero...every. single. game. I've seen him in, he has had some of the best reads in the whole game.
No, seriously. Look at every single game Nero's been in that I have posted in as well. Look at his reads. Look at who the scum were. Look at the comparative reads of the rest of the town.
He's always in the top. ALWAYS. Not always the #1 scumhunter, sure. Not consistently having the scum in sight, sure. (He kinda lacks focus early-game; Nero gets stronger the longer he lives.) But ultimately, he's always been right when the town (me among them in all but one game) was wrong. And often tries to mislynch him. (With a fairly high success rate, if memory serves.)

[TheUnderachivers]

To be fair that seems to be Nero Cain's reads, not his

Nero's reads pretty much ARE my reads.

With one or two exceptions.

He's more informed than I am on the game, and his reads typically are better than mine anyway.

Right now, I'm basically looking at his reads and figuring out the reads among 'em I most strongly agree with.

[TheUnderachivers]

Oh wow.

No wonder Nero has a Jacob scumread.

There's pretty much no content in them at all. And Nero posted in the QT that Jacob has been active in other games but not this one. (*insert vote for our hydra here pointing to my activity* ) Not to mention...

Hey, its started.
VOTE: Majiffy It's always Majiffy...

The classic "vote-your-scumbuddy-in-RVS" tell.

[TheUnderachivers]

Boner Police is 100% Town. For Certain.

100% Confident? On page 2 no less.

vote: JacobSavage

Same potential tell, different person invoking it on a different player, but still potentially valid. IAI's iso then goes to fluff 'til iso 4.

h Jacob, funny guy (post 173) "It turns out vote by PMing the Mod fyi." How bout contributing to the game pal?

Which has this Jacob gem.

Lord's 282 was bad. And that is an understatement.

Dunno who's in Lord's slot, but I seem to recall said slot being town to Nero, which by definition makes this slightly suspicious. And if I had to guess, this statement probably echoes popular opinion at the time.

Majiffy and Hero's followup posts to maz are right along with my thinking. town points

Okay, so not all three of {Jiffy, Hero, IAI} are scum, but one (if not two) definitely are.

Reading Jacob's 583 my instinct is telling me he is playing too awful to be scum. Note to self, meta Jacob

Jacob starting the Lord wagon comes off as a townie move (606)

Jacob, not sure what you wrote in 609, but don't do that crap again.

This also looks bad.

If I had the time, would look into IAI's meta to see if he'd address a scumbuddy like he addressed Majiffy in that same post.


...Eh, overall, I could see IAI as scum with Jacob, but I don't actually have a huge scumread on IAI. Posts seem legit, but that Jacob interaction is horribad. I'll have to see if Nero has any reasons for IAI to be scum (think there mighta been something in the QT), and if so, what they are. Overall, possible, but not feelin' it strong.

[TheUnderachivers]

I'm looking at AJ again, and quite frankly, the conclusion's much the same, albeit for different reasons than what I had in the QT.
AJ's not posting here as vigorously as I'd expect him to a town (an 18-post iso puts him well in the bottom half of the town ), yet at the same time, he's a decent overall poster.
Definitely possible, but I have no clue how probable.

[TheUnderachivers]

what I don't like about ua's posts is that they are coming from a survivalistic POV

Nah, not survivalistic. That implies we have a chance of surviving.

I have no intention of living through the day. Was impossible on Friday (account wasn't activated), I wasn't around on the weekend, was going to be difficult on Monday, but by Tuesday, it became improbable and by today, impossible.

I do, however, wanna do my half of the scumhunting. People won't actually listen to our reads when we flip town (shock! horror! We're not scum!
"Oh, they're lynched town, so let's ignore every point they made; surely there weren't any valid ones?" will be in full effect ), but hey, gotta have some fun before the hammer's dropped.

My statement about people saying seriously that we're scum is true: it's either from an idiot or from scum. Wasn't using it to defend myself against an attack, though. Quite the opposite, it was to attack others.

[TheUnderachivers]

Side-note, I guess another goal of mine is to get our hydra up to Mafia Scum before we're lynched.

Nero doesn't post much; we were a townsperson before I began posting.

[TheUnderachivers]

Quick skim of UN's iso makes him-as-scum more likely. I mean, despite being a consistent waller (seriously, only 29 posts and his iso is down-right Mastin length. Not mastin2 length. As in, Mastin the chronic wallposter length ), there doesn't seem to be a lot in there scream town.

Basically...he's saying townie stuff, but it feels hollow and empty. As if the words didn't actually mean anything. Definitely could be scum.

Not as definite as I'd prefer, but probably the strongest of those I've done an iso for.

[TheUnderachivers]

Majiffy's posting seems pretty weak on a skim. Because this is a super-duper-mega-skim, it's not very definite, but I have a gut feeling if I had time to look it'd look bad.

Probably leaving soon, so won't get to put more in before tomorrow, by which time I'm pretty sure we'll be lynched, soyeah, this is probably it. Wish I had more, but nope, that's it.

[TheUnderachivers]

Majiffy
I Am Innocent
Aj the Epic
MattP
JacobSavage
UberNinja
Vifam
Herobrine

In summary...

UberNinja--mid-tier scum.
Jacob Savage--mid-tier scum.
Herobrine--personally high-tier scum, but eh, not to Nero. Mid-tier scum overall.
IAI--Mid-low tier scum.
Majiffy--mid-low tier scum.
AJ--low-tier scum.

MattP--nothin' from me.
Vifam--nothin' from me.

Soyeah, pretty weak finish from me, but eh, at least I got to do SOME scumhunting.

[TheUnderachivers]

^^^^
scum post

Mastin you need the read the qt

[TheUnderachivers]

*to

and also Mastin, Matt is doing the same thing you are accusing UN of. Considering that Savage and Matt

just

finished a game with me, where I was scum, I find it highly laughable and quite scumtastic that they find me scummy in

this

game.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

[TheUnderachivers]

?????

I have no relationship with IAI other then pointing out that

I

felt like he was sheeping Hero. Hero has more of a relationship with IAI then I do.

AND

its really looking like the IAI wagon is going to not go through so you should consider voting scumSavage.

[TheUnderachivers]

VOTE: UnderArcivers

The number of people jumping.of the wagon close to the lynch has sealed it for me.

^^^^
scum post

Indeed.

Unvote,
VOTE: Jacob Savage.

[TheUnderachivers]

You're right, I don't feel like looking through 130 posts. Now I do remember you saying something about not mentioning Moz wich is a

HUGE

stretch. There's very little chance of the IAI wagon going through so sitting on a vanity wagon this late in the day phase doesn't give me tons of warm fuzzies.

What is your town/scum percentage on JS?

You think IAI is scum now. If IAI is indeed scum there's a good chance that he was sheeping Hero ('cause that's what scum do) My pointing out that IAI was pos sheeping and Hero and vifam both yelling that he wasn't. IDK, just what's your take on this?

You think I'm 50/50...who is the scum on my wagon?

[TheUnderachivers]

I think this is correct Arc

TheUnderachivers - 7 [L-3] Aj the Epic, Vifam, Herobrine, borkjerfkin, zabriel, Majiffy, chkflip, JacobSavage
JacobSavage 4 [L-6] ActionDan, pengiun_alien, I Am Innocent, Moz, TheUnderachivers
UberNinja - 2 [L-9] pirate mollie, PeregrineV
pirate mollie - 1 [L-10] Lord Mhork
Lord Mhork - 1 [L-10] Bitmap
chkflip 1 [L-10] UberNinja
Herobrine 1 [L-10] TheReverend
I Am Innocent - 1 [L-10] MattP

Everyone needs to get off thier vanity wagons and vote for JS.

[TheUnderachivers]

You Savage's buddy?

[TheUnderachivers]

I'll take that as a yes.

[TheUnderachivers]

He is fluffy as shit and not scumhunting at all. And he's coasting. His vote on us is opportunistic and scummy. He's absolving himself of any blame.

PV, Arc. I know you guys are on. Come vote scumSavage.

Last chance for town cred Bork.

[TheUnderachivers]

*shrugz* I've thought he was town but his reluctance to vote obvscum savage is alarming.

[TheUnderachivers]

I don't agree with three (especially in the context of bankable deadline -- scum should have no problem with this wagon going away, even moreso if it's on a scumbuddy) and I don't even understand four.

So your telling me that its okay for him to coast through the game 'cause we have bankable deadlines? Scum are still scum, they're going to hop on the largest wagon. He voted me 'cause

OTHERS

were getting off me. Other than not making a lick of sense he can easily say "oh I was voting with the town an was fooled."

AND

(it depends on the player) he's not made a single post refuting that he's scum. Like I said, it vearies from player to player but sometimes scum will

AVOID

getting into a confrontation as so not to put any heat on them.

[TheUnderachivers]

Someone give me the tl;dr case on both UA and JS, and I'll hop onto the most compelling. Then let's lynch and bank our time.

Jacob has a high fluff content, no scumhunting, avoiding confrontation. He's scum period.

[TheUnderachivers]

Absolving self from blame by use of "oh that was my partner and that's totally not kosher".

This is dumb. Mastin calls Rev scum, Rev then calls our hydra scum. And in your opinion telling Rev that Mastin was v/la and that I didn't call him scum is scummy? GTFO scum.

[TheUnderachivers]

Do you play this bad on purpose?

[TheUnderachivers]

Btw, though I had a while back, Majiffy basically misrepped my bit on Jacob. I gave far more than his RVS for why he was scum. Plus, I fully believe that you can catch a LOT of scum in the RVS, 'cause that's when scum are typically at our weakest.
He's my #1 bet for a JS buddy right now.

[TheUnderachivers]

Nevermind. It was AJ who made that point.
+scumpoints AJ. (Mollie pointed this out pretty well.)

Majiffy had 1284 and 1291, though. Both pretty terrible.

[TheUnderachivers]

'cause that's when scum are typically at our weakest.

Our?

*their.

I'm so getting lynched for that.

[TheUnderachivers]

Butyeah. Jacob, Majiffy, AJ, and Hero are probably my strongest scumreads, in that order.

[TheUnderachivers]

Also, Majiffy's case against us is pretty bad. It's hardcore morphing the evidence to fit the read rather than the read to fit the evidence. I could dismantle half of that case by just pointing to simple things from our QT, simple manners of timing, simple reasoning, simple logic pointing to trends.

(Btw, 'nother thing I've noticed 'bout my scum meta, as scum I hardcore fight to the death when under pressure. I wall, I spampost, I try every trick in the book to make sure I'm not lynched. Even--no, ESPECIALLY--in hydras. Pine correctly pointed out in

Batman and Friends[/b] DCU Mafia that it's a reflexive action as scum from me. The fact that I'm basically just letting the lynch happen would be all the proof anyone who actually cared would need to know that I'm town.
Butyeah, those on the wagon are idiots or scum, so they really don't give a damn how obvious it is that I'm not. )

[TheUnderachivers]

Majiffy
I Am Innocent
Aj the Epic
MattP
JacobSavage
UberNinja
Vifam
Herobrine

In order, the scum are (strongest to weakest) Jacob Savage, Majiffy, Aj the Epic, and Hero (for me).
IAI remains outside as a distant fifth; can be subbed in. (Null-scum.)
Call me a sucker (I am a sucker. ), but UN's way of responding to us makes me think he's not scum anymore. (Null-town.)
Vifam I got nothin' on, but gut says town. (Null-town.)
MattP, also nothin. But thanks to Nero, null-scum.

Basically...Jacob, Majiffy, Aj, Hero, IAI, and MattP are where I've focused.
/has to leave.

[TheUnderachivers]

You must be so town.

Also your self-admitted scum meta is looking an awful lot like your play in this game.

Yes. I am town, and quite obviously so.

And when I say I flail as scum...I really, REALLY flail as scum. Observe.

[TheUnderachivers]

We haven't backed up a single read. Yea right.

[TheUnderachivers]

Whatever scum. You guys lynch JS tomorrow since the scum is leadin' ya'll around.

[TheUnderachivers]

We already did. VT.

[TheUnderachivers]

And now that the lynch is official, time to do that last-minute work.

[TheUnderachivers]

Oh yeah, and then you out a bunch of null-town reads.

So...

I mean, good job having everyone as essentially null.

Blatantly false. We have strong reads. Everyone not among the 8 is varying degrees of town. A pool of 8 suspects. Of which, four are scum, two are leaning town, and two leaning scum.

Add to that, the fact that you haven't actually backed up a single read this entire game.

Basically, if you're scum, you're a really bad scum player.
And if you're town, you're a

really

bad town player.

I'm seeing some similar conclusions going on.

This is justifying being on our wagon.
"Well, it's not MY fault I lynched underachivers! They were a bad player!"

[TheUnderachivers]

Plus, in addition to that, he tries to weaken our reads by claiming we haven't backed them up.
We have. Not in great detail, but we've touched upon the reasoning. Nero is VERY fond of implying rather than out-right stating things, and I just plainly suck at out-right stating things and just give the conclusions.

In that regard, we're both similar.

But that's not "not backing up reads", that's us both being bad at adequately vocalizing said reads. Doesn't mean they're any less valid.

[TheUnderachivers]

If you are scum drop the act

Thing is, we're not.

So mod damn it, I'm going to keep posting 'til it's locked.

(Also, yay! We made Mafia Scum!)

[TheUnderachivers]

Don't worry Matin, we know that Majiffy and Jacob is scum lets just hope this town is better on day 2.

[TheUnderachivers]

ArcAngel > Ma Jiffy

[TheUnderachivers]

* Not to mention his second-strongest scum read is backed up by reasoning garnered through "a very light skim" of my ISO, followed by a lot of conjecture.

Also false. Though that was my initial half-hearted entry into the game, it got stronger and stronger with the more I read.

Majiffy's snarking is also pretty scummy, in addition to all of the stuff we have on him. From pushing our mislynch and morphing the evidence to fit the read, to VERY strong relationship tells with Jacob, to dismissing us as bad-town before we've even flipped, to trying and make people ignore our reads.

[TheUnderachivers]

'cause its meta and you know its scummy. That way you can sit there and say "oh look at me, this is my town meta."

How do you know our reads are shit unless who know who the scum team is?

[TheUnderachivers]

Blatantly false. We have strong reads. Everyone not among the 8 is varying degrees of town. A pool of 8 suspects. Of which, four are scum, two are leaning town, and two leaning scum.

All of your scum reads given earlier were weakly justified or wishy-washy.
Your list of town reads that you gave very recently all had null involved in them somehow.

Those are not strong reads.

Also a misrep. We have VERY strong townreads. Everyone outside of those 8, in fact. That itself is a very good start. And it's also pretty impressive I did what I did considering the fact that I HAVEN'T READ MOST OF THE GAME, and entered TWO DAYS AGO (I was not in the game Friday, Saturday, Sunday, or even really Monday).

This is justifying being on our wagon.
"Well, it's not MY fault I lynched underachivers! They were a bad player!"

Yeah, your point? You deserved it. If you flip town, I will never play a game with you, Mastin.

Yes, we have said as much. We deserved the lynch.
That doesn't make it entirely our fault. You can never blame a lynch on the player being lynched. A good 50% of the time, it's because the player in question wasn't more scummy than the other players, they were just less charismatic than the other players.

And trying to brush this off, to pin the blame entirely on us, is extremely scum-motivated. It eliminates any fault you would have. It makes you being on the wagon look justified. It makes being on the mislynch more acceptable, if you can push the idea that it was our fault.

[TheUnderachivers]

morphing the evidence to fit the read
to VERY strong relationship tells with Jacob
to dismissing us as bad-town before we've even flipped
to trying and make people ignore our reads.

3) Are you saying you're not town? Because you've claimed you're town after the hammer
4) Your reads are utter shit

3 and 4 also show why Majiffy is scum.
Majiffy was saying this before we began posting post-hammer.
And other than Majiffy, didn't Majiffy say most of the reads in the 8 were actually good? (Substituting out a couple names and putting a couple more in [ours among them], if memory serves.) So how, exactly, would our very-similar reads be "shit" and his not?

[TheUnderachivers]

Majiffy
I Am Innocent
Aj the Epic
MattP
JacobSavage
UberNinja
Vifam

Add in Herobrine, and you have where I'm focusing. I don't really remember how many players are in the game, but I seem to recall this being somewhere between 20 and 25 (24? would have to check first post) meaning 4-5 scum, outside chance of six.

And Eight possible names.

So if I could cut that in half, it'd actually be useful.

Sure thing. Take off myself and Vifam, add in yourself, and presto.

Here we go.

[TheUnderachivers]

Basically, Majiffy said that IAI, Aj, Matt, Jacob, and UN (plus us) all look bad via this quote. Yet he calls our reads "shit".

Hypocrisy at its finest.

[TheUnderachivers]

I'd also like to add that us and Matt have several of the same reads, not sure why OUR reads are shit but his aren't.

[TheUnderachivers]

Holy shit UA if you're town just don't sit there and fling shit at Majiffy, this your chance to read the thread THOROUGHLY and get some last minute reads in.

We have everything we're going to get. You have our suspects, in the eight names.

You know my interpretation, of who the four scum in there are. JS and Majiffy are both mutual. Aj as well, albeit weaker. Hero's mine, Matt's Nero's, and IAI is a weak scumread of both. UN a slight townread of both, and you, dunno.


All which can be done is to strengthen what we've already established as our reads.

[TheUnderachivers]

Mastin, you need to read the qt. Look what I found and tell me what you think.

What is the case on Underachievers?

He started to look dodgy around here.
Trying to make some look scummy when they clearly weren't.

Doesn't it kinda sound like he knows AJ's alignment?

Is there a case on him yet, or are we just lynching someone for the hell of it

but he had already posted a "case".

[TheUnderachivers]

I'm sorry, what? You deserved the lynch, you played poorly and yet... It's... not your fault? It's whose fault then? The players whom were more charismatic than you? Whom played better by some qualia that you're using to judge why you got lynched over others?

Fault is not black-and-white.

It's not 100% one person's fault. It's not 100% the other side's fault.

I am at fault, for not coming in and devoting myself to the game 'til it was too late.
Nero is partially (but not nearly as much) at fault for him being Nero.

But the town players on our lynch are equally at fault, for not realizing what our play meant. (That we are town.)
And any player who tries to brush it off is by definition trying to dodge that responsibility. You're trying to blame the pin entirely on us. You're refusing, absolutely stead-fast REFUSING to accept that you are in ANY way responsible for the mislynch, despite having been among its strongest pushers.

And that's where the scumminess comes in.

Is it entirely the town's fault, no. I'd say 65% mine, 10% Nero, and 25% town. But trying to pin 100% of it on it on us is a flat-out lie.

[TheUnderachivers]

1) Misrep. I actually said you're either really bad scum or really bad town. Thanks.

100% of the time this line is used, the person saying it means the latter. The former is there as a formality to make it look less scummy to say, but they always, ALWAYS know already that it's going to be town. They just want to make it look as if they don't.

You might have said "bad scum or bad town", but you already know it's town.

[TheUnderachivers]

And I think vifam is scum. Matt said something about vifam being scum but IDK if Matt ever answered.

And Maj is just a terrible terrible player so could be scum/could be town. After Jacob flips scum he needs to be lynched in case.

[TheUnderachivers]

Nero doesn't have a big scumread on IAI ("only reason to suspect, is sheep of Hero plus Matt's selective reads on him and Hero". He's pretty much moving him off.

His suspects are:
Matt
vifam
Savage
...as scum.

He has UN as #4, and Maj as either an alternative or as a fifth. (Depends on total number of scum.)

Soyeah, we're not going to end this as in unison as I was hoping. :/

[TheUnderachivers]

What, is it also the fault of a person who gets shot for standing in front of a gun?

Majiffy, the wording of this makes it so that you're saying us getting mislynched ISN'T our fault.

But yes, if getting shot is a metaphor for nightkilled, it is partially the nk'd person's fault, depending on the circumstances. (Generally, if they had good reads but didn't manage to convey 'em properly before their death.)

The guide's a mess, but my "MD Theory Project" goes into SIGNIFICANT detail about this concept.

And how are we supposed to "realize" that you're town if you don't show us?

We did. Actions speak louder than words. Subtleness is key. If I'm being blatant, then I'm being fake. I might be obviously town, but I'm not blatant with my method of showing it.

[TheUnderachivers]

I meant, Matt had called you scum. And then you asked him about why he changed his read on you. I don't know if he responded or not.

[TheUnderachivers]

You should always be voting your highest scumread regardless of wagon size. Except in the case of deadline.

[TheUnderachivers]

No. I'm arguing against your "fault is never 100%" statement. It isn't to be applied as a metaphor for your lynch.

You're arguing against the idea that "fault is never 100%", for real life. Which is true...but has no relevance to the game.

I'm pointing out how, in general, it really isn't. Any time it is 100% (or even close to 100%) it's the exception which proves the rule, that it's not. This is ESPECIALLY true for the game of mafia. This really does get into MD, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out that very rarely is someone lynched entirely because that someone sucks. It is VERY often also because the people on their wagon are not perfect, have room to improve, and made a mistake.

In this case, lynching us.


And refusing to see this, refusing to admit that, yes, there is SOME fault on the player who STRONGLY PUSHED the mislynch, is why you're scum.

[TheUnderachivers]

You neglect the gamestate until two days before deadline in a game with a bankable deadline.

Hydra activation knocked us out until Friday. Permanent V/LA for me knocked me out until Monday. Arguing that as being under my control is lunacy. I wasn't supposed to post before the hydra activated. I wasn't around over the weekend. Saying that was neglect on my part is quite frankly false.

You provide awful, wishy-washy reads. You don't explain shit.You're right, actions do speak louder than words. Thanks for not showing whatsoever that you're town.

Our reads are solid, both in who they are and in how little they fluctuate. "*insert you pointing to earlier posts which suggest otherwise*". Yes, they were. WERE. They got stronger and more solidified the further into the game we went.

We did show we were town, with the general aura of our posting. Going on just the literal words, I will never win any argument. Going into the intention, picking up the subtext of conversations, is where my strength lies, and where the townread on us would be coming from.
Words are the literal thing.

Actions are the meaning behind the words. Our actions showed we were town, even though our words did not.

And ignoring this, brushing it off as being complete BS, ignores all semblance of reason.
Hence, why those on our wagon are idiots, or scum.