Mini 942: Gonzo Mafia - Game Over!
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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That's how I random vote, arbitrarily.Vi wrote:
Ah yes, you showed!Zachrulez 38 wrote:What interview exactly?
Could you explain why you chose to vote THAT target with THAT reasoning, instead of any other?
Everyone else voted for personal reasons; yours seemed to have been chosen to be as arbitrary as possible and I know fully well that you've played with many of us before.-
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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Perhaps that case he made on Hohum, using his issue with my random vote as an excuse not to actually vote on it?Sotty7 wrote:
It page two, what better reason is there at this point?Zachrulez Post 44 wrote:Point taken.
However, I think we have differing ideas of what is acceptable in RVS, and you're grasping at straws if you think this is the best reason to vote someone at this point.-
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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At this point, Hohum's Reckoner vote looks pretty weak, and contrary to what I would expect from his play.Vi wrote:
@Zachrulez: So who's scum?~~
No one else has really done anything that seems worth noting.
Your play is aggravating, but pro-town.
I'm also pretty happy with my Locke vote at this point given the sum of his activity at this point. I'd like to see him get more involved in the game.-
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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Your activity over the sum of the first 24 hours consisted of a random vote, and a question to another player, but little else.Locke Lamora wrote:Zach: you think my activity in the first 24 hours of this game has been scummy/unacceptable? What exactly do you expect from hohum?
Given the differences between your activity level in tweed mafia and Sigma's mini normal game. It is something I find worth watching. (Plus a better place for my vote isn't really screaming out at me.)
Hohum comes across to me as an aggressive player. His approach to Reckoner has felt contrary to that. (Though his follow up posts are more characteristic, which is why my vote hasn't moved.)-
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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Well I've changed votes twice... if that's your definition of lots.Locke Lamora wrote:Lot of vote-hopping early on here, Zach. Is this normal for you?
My vote on Sotty was primarily for a reaction. Her approach here is a little different from Sigma's game. I'm satisfied with her latest post however. Flinter looks pretty scummy to me at this point.
I don't see pursuing you further at this point as productive. Ditto for Sotty.-
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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That'sxRECKONERx wrote:You hopped around a bit, but not thrice within 1-2 pages this early on.notwhat you said. You said you have never seen me hop around with my vote this much. A blatant lie.
The truth of it is that I hop around a lot as town. When I am scum... I actually have the opposite approach... I rarely ever change my vote at all.-
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13353
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13008
Those are the two most recent.
The only vote change I can recall from the recent newbie game was forced by a cop claim.-
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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Which compels me to summarize your continued pressure of me.
You: "I've never seen you vote hop like this before."
me: Oh yeah? What about this game? (Which you played with me.)
"Well you've never vote hopped this quickly this early in the game." (Backtracking, and arguing meta you haven't personally witnessed.)
I then compare my scum meta to my town meta, and you demand links, which I provide.
Then... "Oh, well your aware of your meta, so you can just be playing against it."
Never mind the fact that your entire reasoning for voting me was based on meta that was an OUTRIGHT lie, and that you're now trying to beat the point home by using my awareness of my meta as some kind of proof that the behavior is still scummy.
......... *blink*-
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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Weaksauce.flinter wrote:
I dislike how he makes sure that people know he is different. Different is usually viewed as towny, and that makes this post most a roundabout way of saying: "I'm towny, really!"Zachrulez wrote:And random voting someone for personal reasons isn't anti-town?
Or is this more because I random voted in a manner that's DIFFERENT than everyone else?FoS zach
Active lurking is scummy. Besides, the reason I voted you was because you weren't scumhunting. The efforts you've been putting forth are just really weak at this point. I don't really feel like they are genuine and are more forced suspicions in response to the fact that people find your lack of scum hunting suspicious.flinter wrote:Zach his posts on page three are seriously weak: Reck had a point here. Zach is making 2 active lurking cases already, and saying Hohum isn't aggressive enough. Sorry, 3 active lurking cases: on me too. (locke and sotty were the others). Votehopping isn't the problem, it is that the votes are not very different, and weak.-
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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Hi.flinter wrote:Sotty: logic is better for arguing, and bringing your point across, I think.
I've bolded my first suspicion of zach, and I italicized his response.Sotty7 wrote:
Nothing you quoted there by Zach amounts to an ad hominem attack if that is what you are suggesting.flinter Post 149 wrote:
I have bolded the two key words: page three. Oh, and they are. I already said that. But seemingly, they did make sense, as you are not even trying to argue, you are only trying to discredit me.
Active lurking is scummy. Besides, the reason I voted you was because you weren't scumhunting.flinter wrote:Zach his posts onpage threeare seriously weak: Reck had a point here. Zach is making 2 active lurking cases already, and saying Hohum isn't aggressive enough. Sorry, 3 active lurking cases: on me too. (locke and sotty were the others). Votehopping isn't the problem,it is that the votes are not very different, and weak.The efforts you've been putting forth are just really weak at this point.I don't really feel like they are genuineand are more forced suspicions in response to the fact that people find your lack of scum hunting suspicious.
how did we call that: ad hominem?
This is a full ad hom. In stead of answering my argument, zach says I'm not honestly suspecting him, and I shouldn't be active lurking.
Hohum becomes more towny for me.
Vi: I'm still voting for my scum, who hasn't posted a lot lately.
Further, other suspects like locke have posted, but I didn't find this interesting.
I think going for Reck is wrong. I was going to look at what was said about Percy, because I didn't fully understand it always, but I'm afraid I forgot to do that.
Oh, and I think I'm moderately experienced. But I notice the way you play here is a little different.
Although I like that DDD is finally off me, his vote makes me doubt him a bit. He bandwagons.
I think you need to read that before you claim I'm using ad_hominem argument, because upon reading it you'll realize that I actually am not.
Few other thoughts in response to your post.
Why is the Reckoner wagon wrong? This just feels like such a categorical thing to say. I'm don't find a Reckoner wagon appealing, but I can understand why people might want to vote him.
Also just remembered that your vote was still on Kyle. I can't remember a good reason for it being there, but it feels like the safest lurker vote ever. (He is lurking, but to me it his play looks exactly the same as his play in Kittymo's mini 922, where I replaced him as a town mason.)
So yeah... why are you voting for him again?-
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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It's not so much ignoring the rest of the player list as much as it is not being nearly as interested in it as I am Flinter.Sotty7 wrote:I'm saying you're tunneling and coasting. I don't think it is like you to ignore the rest of the player list this much even when you do tunnel.
So fixing that would be great.
As far as the Percy situation, I'm not particularly interested in any of the pressure that's been put on him because I personally don't find it particularly suspicious. Bandwagoning based on differing sides of whether or not Vi has a post restriction or not. (I'm not even sure WHERE that argument came from because the possibility hasn't really crossed my mind TBH based on Vi's posts.)
Reckoner seems to be begging to be lynched which doesn't particularly please me. (Unless of course he's nice enough to flip scum too.) I'd really like to see him start giving a damn, but I've noticed that he seems a lot more comfortable/interested in games when he's scum, so I don't really like the idea of lynching him for that reason.
DDD's activity is generally low and starting to remind me of mafia 98, not liking that at all.
Those are a few thoughts outside of Flinter that I have, but are generally much less interesting to me than Flinter's pattern of ridiculously scummy behavior so far.
Also, I really hate her reaction to Reck basically asking to be lynched. (The Reckoner wagon is wrong yet appealing? Oh RLY?)
If there weren't already great reasons to lynch Flinter, the above is another great one.-
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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On a 2nd read of your iso, I notice that you did comment on Reck in 214. I asked mainly because an opinion on Reckoner from you wasn't jumping out at me.Sotty7 wrote:My opinions on reck are in the thread. He was scummy for his early attack on you and I think he needs to either get his head into the game or be replaced.
I agree with your initial assessment with flinter replacing out like she did and it looking bad. Will check to see if replaced out of all her games or just this one though.
I wish search were still up because I'm very interested in what other games flinter is in and her status in those games.-
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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Still in it or replaced out?Sotty7 wrote:
Use google. She seems to be in at least one other game atm.Zachrulez Post 247 wrote:
On a 2nd read of your iso, I notice that you did comment on Reck in 214. I asked mainly because an opinion on Reckoner from you wasn't jumping out at me.Sotty7 wrote:My opinions on reck are in the thread. He was scummy for his early attack on you and I think he needs to either get his head into the game or be replaced.
I agree with your initial assessment with flinter replacing out like she did and it looking bad. Will check to see if replaced out of all her games or just this one though.
I wish search were still up because I'm very interested in what other games flinter is in and her status in those games.-
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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Funny how you don't commit to calling me scum and actually call me neutral.Jack wrote:
zach got called out for vote hopping early, and said that as scum he sticks to his vote. Which is EXACTLY what he's done for the rest of the day.
Even more interesting how Sotty ended up town after you said you didn't like both of us earlier.
Also looks like you're fine with your vote right where it is too. It's great how things like that work out.-
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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Yeah, but she posted to stay in that game here. In this game, she never bothered to give a reason why she replaced out. She was into the game defending herself one minute, and then the next, she just wanted out... and she was MORE into this game than she seems to be in the other one, so the progression from that to replacing out just doesn't make any sense to me.Sotty7 wrote:
She posted that she had issues with school. You're reaching.Zachrulez wrote:FTR, That other game Flinter is in she has not yet replaced out in, and actually posted there after replacing out here.
Which is just further fueling my suspicion that she just couldn't take the heat.
I also see a Vi wall I need to read.-
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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Which is a funny thing for you to say, because you generally tend to post something like this when you are scum to keep the door for Zachscum open just a crack. When you're town, you generally don't cast this kind of doubt on your reads of me.Sotty7 wrote:
Of course abuse of meta and all that, hecouldbe playing me, but I don't think so.
Also, I can count on a hand with exactly 0 fingers the number of times I have actually been able to successfully play you as scum.
On the other side of the coin, the number of times you have played me as scum... well, the number's a lot higher than 0.-
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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Games where you are a jester don't count as me fooling you because you don't give a crap who is scum in those kind of games.Sotty7 wrote:I can think of one game you fooled me but that was like two years ago (?) and a game were I was a jester and busy doing my own thing. But yeah I tend to bust you pretty hard, you're right about that.-
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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When you have 2 games, and you need to get rid of one, which one do you pick?Jahudo wrote:
- flinter did mention she was busy and posting to avoid a prod in her only other game (Tit for Tat), so the V/LA looks real. So even though she didn't replace out of that game, it seems possible that she wanted to try and handle 1 game. I don't see it as a tell either way.
In this game she seemed pretty caught up, while she seemed behind in the other (Posting to avoid a prod is indicative of that.)
Now with no indication that she was behind in this game or too busy to continue posting on top of the fact that she replaced out without actually stating a reason. (If she was town and gave a damn you think she would have mentioned it.) WHY would you replace out of the game you see more into and NOT behind in and stay in the game where you're behind and need to catch up?
It makes absolutely zero sense to me.-
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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Please note the bolded statement. "Votehopping is almost never scummy."flinter Iso 4 wrote:I find recks action antitown, but not scummy. So I have a neutral read on him. And that is the problem with most that I could comment on.
If I was really reaching for a conclusion, I would call zachs town:votehopping is almost never scummy, but it is good to show what you are thinking. If he didn't do this in previous games, this towntell gets stronger: he is rather using his vote for information discussion etc, then trying to find a good excuse for a vote whenever he votes (that would generally mean that he would vote less)
But, the use of votes is mostly a playstyle thing, so it isn't really a great tell. Random votes don't tell me a thing, tbh. VI's play is ok, but I think that is expected from him. Reck has already been named, and Hohum is quite unreadable for me at the moment.
So I'm trying to investigate, but there is nothing scummy that stands out for me yet. It would also help if I got to know some of the players better.
if you are scum, and someone makes a point against you that is quite ridiculous, what do you do:
A calmly explain why it is ridiculous.
B call that person a moron, etc.
C something else (please explain what you would do)
Until ISO 23 of course when it suddenly is.
Of course I did explain my reasoning for switching between Locke and Sotty later, but Flinter tries to pretend that I didn't. (See my iso 13.)flinter wrote:Reck is making mistakes, not being scummy. The wagon might be appealing, but is quite a random one.
I know very well what ad hominem means. As far as I know, Zach didn't even read my accusations, he just went on how bad I am as a player.
Now, he may think that fun, and all, but that doesn't mean that his votes on page 3 were well reasoned, or that there was any need for a votechange between them (the cases were very similar) Zach never replyed to this.
unvote vote zach. You may have a friend in Sotty, but that doesn't mean you are right. Please tell me why you needed to votehop there.
This of course is because she's under pressure and needs to discredit the attacks that have since come on her from my direction by making the motive behind them look scummy. (Completely contradicting her previously stated position that my votehopping was pro-town.)
How can you come to two different conclusions analyzing the same set of play and the information that comes from it? Necessity of course.-
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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None of the reasoning from ISO 15 was referenced when she cast her vote for me. She inquires about the vote hopping, so I can only assume that's the bulk of the reason for the vote.
Also think the point about me pursuing active lurkers being weak would carry a lot more weight if I were doing it on page 15 or so rather than page 3.
What I saw (and what I still see) in ISO 23 is Flinter voting me for vote hopping after saying it wasn't scummy.-
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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True... but.Jack wrote:Hammering isn't scummy, but you can still legitimately vote someone for hammering.
Note bolded mine.flinter wrote:I find recks action antitown, but not scummy. So I have a neutral read on him. And that is the problem with most that I could comment on.
If I was really reaching for a conclusion, I would call zachs town:votehopping is almost never scummy, but it is good to show what you are thinking. If he didn't do this in previous games, this towntell gets stronger: he is rather using his vote for information discussion etc, then trying to find a good excuse for a vote whenever he votes (that would generally mean that he would vote less)
But, the use of votes is mostly a playstyle thing, so it isn't really a great tell. Random votes don't tell me a thing, tbh. VI's play is ok, but I think that is expected from him. Reck has already been named, and Hohum is quite unreadable for me at the moment.
So I'm trying to investigate, but there is nothing scummy that stands out for me yet. It would also help if I got to know some of the players better.
if you are scum, and someone makes a point against you that is quite ridiculous, what do you do:
A calmly explain why it is ridiculous.
B call that person a moron, etc.
C something else (please explain what you would do)
Again note bolded mine. I have argued this to death. But basically she's making my vote hopping into an issue after previously drawing the conclusion that she saw it as pro town. I have an issue with this.flinter wrote:Reck is making mistakes, not being scummy. The wagon might be appealing, but is quite a random one.
I know very well what ad hominem means. As far as I know, Zach didn't even read my accusations, he just went on how bad I am as a player.
Now, he may think that fun, and all, but that doesn't mean that his votes on page 3 were well reasoned, or that there was any need for a votechange between them (the cases were very similar)Zach never replyed to this.
unvote vote zach. You may have a friend in Sotty, but that doesn't mean you are right.Please tell me why you needed to votehop there.
She also claims I never responded to the point that my votes weren't well reasoned. I have responded to death with the fact that I explained my votes in a previous post, even going so far as to reference the post itself. Now... if you don't LIKE that explanation, that's fine, but that's really all it is, there isn't really anything I can do or say beyond that to explain what I did because that's the explanation and the rationalization that was going on in my mind at the time.
Also in ISO 23 she's trying to discredit my attacks by calling them ad-hom, accusing me of not reading her posts and simply referring to her as a bad player. This is another issue I have with her. She's trying to characterize my suspicions and the points in my case as personal attacks in order to discredit them. Scum do this.-
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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I'm not buying it. I'm not even buying that she originally read my reasoning for either vote or my explanation for the votes afterwards. This was demonstrated when she asked me why I felt the need to vote hopekiM wrote:zach - she said votehoppingper seisn't scummy, later went back and read that page again and decided she didn't like yourreasonsfor votehopping. I'm not convinced that's contradictory.after I already explained it.-
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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ok, so she repeats herself in an effort to make it look like she's actually bringing new content to the table.ekiM wrote:And everything she said in ISO 15 seems referenced in ISO 23.
iso15 wrote:Zach his posts on page three are seriously weak: Reck had a point here.Zach is making 2 active lurking cases already, and saying Hohum isn't aggressive enough. Sorry, 3 active lurking cases: on me too. (locke and sotty were the others). Votehopping isn't the problem, it is that the votes are not very different,and weak.iso23 wrote:Now, he may think that fun, and all, but that doesn't mean that his votes on page 3 were well reasoned,or that there was any need for a votechange between them (the cases were very similar)Zach never replyed to this.
unvote vote zach. You may have a friend in Sotty, but that doesn't mean you are right.Please tell me why you needed to votehop there.
Look, I see where you're coming from. I just don't buy it. If she has an issue with the play I don't think it takes 7 posts to decide to vote me for it, (in response to having her kyle vote called out no less.) and I don't think dwelling on actions I did on page 3 in the low information stage of the game are a genuine attempt at trying to figure out my alignment.-
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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It means... I'm really not sure.Locke Lamora wrote:
Zach: you suggested that Sotty is playing to her scum meta by casting doubt on her suspicions of you, then you didn't follow it up at all. Does this mean you don't really think Sotty is scummy for doing so?
Even if she's nearly 100% convinced I'm town, she is usually interested in my motives and my thought process of who I'm suspecting and why. In this game for whatever reason she doesn't seem that interested.
Nagging thing that's bothering me. Another one of those nagging things is her tendency to follow my preferred links as though I'm all knowing. (Which in the past more so than now has worked VERY effectively for her when we've played together.) Since reading and studying up on our past games, it's a tendency I've noticed from her when she's scum.-
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Keep in mind that Locke asked and that post was in response to his inquiry.Sotty7 wrote:That would be a good point if I hadn't questioned you or called you out in this game when I have. We agree on flinter/Jack but I think that's about it. I don't know your opinion on hohum for example, or Percy.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 15#2175115
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 83#2175383
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 37#2186937
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 01#2193901
You're just paranoid that I am always scum-
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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Yeah, I notice now that Hohum didn't react to that at all, while pushing it as a major point about Reck.Locke Lamora wrote:In the hohum case, you said you found it scummy when he cared about Reckoner replacing out but not flinter. I assume you think this is scummy because you don't think hohum treated Reckoner and flinter in the same way?
Also, I'm not getting a very proactive feel from Hohum. (He's also been attacking lurkers while pushing that territory himself and what he has posted seems to be pretty quiet/designed to not really be noticed.)
Does that answer your question Percy?-
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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Nice...Jack wrote:ortolan wrote:
didn't want to prejudice his responses, br0. Of course now you're going to need to meta his replacement anyway.Vi wrote:
I would like to see your response to Vi's 284 and 287.ortolan 288 wrote:I just isoed kyle, the only scummy thing I noticed is
Which is kind of a weird thing to say. I would like to see kyle's response to Vi's 284 though.kyle ISO 6 (to ekiM) wrote:You make some decent points on me,
Unvotefor what looks like tactical replacement.
Vote: kylefos:ortolan
kyle replaced out of another game with the same message...don't like your reaction.-
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
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