Mini Normal 1843 - Endgame
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Jaack Goon
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Jaack Goon
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Hey look stuff is happening
Regarding the rask wagon, I think that the initial reason BlackVoid gave for voting rask is pretty solid. That being said, rask's reaction to the wagon seems towny enough that I'm not enthralled with rask as scum. Either way, there is probably scum somewhere on the rask wagon, so I'm more concerned there for now.
Brief timeline:
56: BlackVoid gives reason, votes rask
57: Hoopla endorses rask vote but does not change her vote
58: BBT vote rask in hopes of starting a wagon
59: Sotty joins wagon. Follows it up with 60 which is substantitive, but does not discuss rask
62: Hoopla officially votes rask
63: TwoFace votes rask without reason other than it existing and the coin flip gimmick
I'm generally townreading hoopla right now for her approach to this wagon as well as her early game play (the dice tag discussion seems needlessly risky for scum). I also do like BlackVoid's reasons for the wagon, even if my intial vote was there. If there is scum on the wagon its probably within {BBT, Sotty, TwoFace}
Of those three I think Sotty is most likely. She had an empty vote, but at the same time added a few weak reads right afterword. Seems like someone who knew their vote was not good, so they decided to put down some content so as to not get blamed for fluff. 86 also shows more self awareness about the quality of her posts.
As for the other two, there's not enough from BBT to make note of pretty much anything, since his only post is the rask vote. I do have a slight scumread on TwoFace though, although it might just be the coin gimmick getting on my nerves. Scumread on Sotty is stronger.
VOTE: Sotty
PEdit-Okay BBT has three posts now. Still not a lot to go on, but he's still probably the most townie of the trio.-
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Jaack Goon
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Using dice tags in rvs is the kind of thing that tends to get people on your case, essentially for the reasons michel gave when he voted hoopla. It's sort of like self voting in rvs in that it's liable to get people talking about you early.In post 109, MariaR wrote:Jack why do you think talking about dice is risky for scum btw I don't get it
I don't think it's a pro-town play, but it rather on the nose for scum.-
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Jaack Goon
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I go away for a bit and everyone posts everything. Let's ketchup
Just looking for a place to start. While you may disagree with my methods of getting there, I do think my logic for scumreading sotty is solid, which is, you know, why I posted it.In post 112, goodmorning wrote:
I like that you start by saying "IF" and then somewhere between there and the end of the post it magically changes to "IS" with no real explanation.In post 101, Jaack wrote:If there is scum on the wagon
And by "I like" I mean "I don't like." Also VCA is dumb ok
I think that's all that was directly addressed to me, but for some general thoughts--
It seems strange to me that there has been as much discussion about BBT with his lack of content, particularly when he is not alone in said lack of content. (particularly I Am Innocent, but also sort of myself and Michel)
Still comfortable with townreading Hoopla and Rask. BlackVoid seems relatively townie as well.
I kinda have no clue whats going on with Victor and GM, although Victor's last few rage-y posts do feel a little fake to me.
I was inclined to townread Cloud for his early trolly play, but the self-awareness and apology-ness of 272 give me pause.
All in all I'm still rather comfortable with my vote on Sotty for now.-
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Jaack Goon
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It doesn't. It's very possible that there were no scum on that wagon, although I think that it's more likely that there were. I just didn't see the need to fluff everything up with conditionals, particularly when my though process arrived at what I think is likely scum.In post 328, goodmorning wrote: And there's nothing wrong with that. There's still a gap in logic there though. When/why does if -> is?-
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Jaack Goon
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He is scummy enough that I should note it, but I don't feel particularly strongly about much. Sometimes when I read his posts I feel something looks scummy, but I also feel it could be general abrasiveness, 212 being a decent example.In post 359, Sotty7 wrote:Hey Jaack, what do you think of twoface?
Okay, but what about any of this is scummy?In post 370, MariaR wrote:Jack was one of the 2 people I had a sr on and he hasn't done much to change it I think the fact he tried to look for scum on a RVS wagon pinged me the wrong way mostly because there was nothing to go off on it because it was a RVS wagon
Plus the disagreement we had so!-
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Jaack Goon
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Okay, catching up a bit...
Rask and Hoopla are still my top two townreads. Unlike everyone else it seems, I feel like BBT is town as well...
My townread on BlackVoid has faded a bit. A lot of the posts I read from him are good and towny, but a couple of times I felt as if he was parroting what someone else had just said (323 and 456 are the two that caught my eye).
My gut feeling is that Maria is town. I generally feel that scum aren't going to blatantly avoid questions like she did with BBT. She avoided the question I asked as well (398 so you can answer it without begging me to quote it).
Ehh, I'll just give a full ordered list from town to scum
Town:
Rask
Hoopla
Maria
BBT
Michel
BlackVoid
GoodMorning
I Am Innocent I guess
Victor
Cloud
TwoFace
Sotty
:Scum
I think cloud is going a bit under the radar as of late. A lot of people seem to be willing to write off his actions as playstyle, but reading through this iso, it seems like he's been trying way to hard to assert himself as an important part of the town while simultaneously acting trolly. I'm not really sure here, but I'm feeling he's scummier than people have been treating him as of late.-
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Jaack Goon
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There are plenty of other people who got reads based on stuff from the early going of the thread. What makes my early read scummy? Also pushing a wagon isn't scummy, it's literally the only way to win as town.In post 516, MariaR wrote:I think you tried to make a sr on something where I don't think anything was NAI let's see what scum want to do
1) Get towncred
2) Push a wagon
you did both congrats scum points for you
It's not a super strong scumread, but I feel a lot of his posts have not been very good in terms of advancing the game or anything, which is not good for a player with as girthy of an iso.In post 517, MariaR wrote:Wth is with the two face sr?
In the first case I felt you were parroting GM's thoughts on me a little bit, but that might just be because I'm more aware of people talking about me lol. As for the sotty/bbt theory thing, I felt it was kind of strange that you would bring up your own conspiracy theory in response to Rask's.In post 520, BlackVoid wrote:@Jaack, how was I "parroting" what someone else said in my 323? I don't recall anyone making those points about GM. If they have, go ahead and quote them for me.
I agree that 456 was me agreeing with Rask about Sotty and BBT being scum, potentially together. But if agreeing with someone else is scummy to you, how didn't it affect your read on Hoopla when she said she noticed the same thing I did? Also, I had suspicions of both BBT and Sotty7 much before Rask brought up his theory so I'm not understanding how you interpreted that as parroting Rask.
Why is BBT town?
Really, parroting isn't the right word for what you did now that I'm englishing harder. It's more like you were kind of subtlely pushing along trains of thought I didn't feel were in town's best interest, particularly with the one in 456. I don't see what furthering that kind of paranoia does to help town. That being said, your still in my townreads for the time being for your general body of work.
I feel like BBT-Maria is a town-town thing. I also feel like scum wouldn't spend the vast majority of their time tunnelling when their are under pressure.-
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Jaack Goon
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I am here... and suddenly quite popular it seems.
I've said this already, but my vote on sotty is not based on the rask wagon thing. It's based off of sotty's actions in the early game. As I explained already. I haven't commented on sotty since because nothing has really popped out at me from her posts. I mean I didn't really like her first vote on BBT all that much (119} but I haven't felt to strongly about the vast majority of her posts since the early game.In post 567, BlackVoid wrote:Regarding Jaack, yeah I felt he was a bit too comfortable with voteparking your wagon based off of the "IF there's one scum on the Rask wagon, it's Sotty7" theory which isn't even necessarily true and he hasn't re-assessed or commented on your posts since then.
The only other players I have reasonable scum-inklings about are twoface and cloudkicker, and neither of those two players have much momentum towards a wagon, so I don't know why I would move my vote to a less useful place.
Now regarding myself, I think it's notable that there has been a lot of interest in me as a scum candidate in the past couple of pages, but no one is willing to cast the first vote. Of course now that I say that someone will probably cheekily quote this section and vote me.-
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Jaack Goon
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Nothing has popped out at me as I've followed the thread, but I'll review your iso to see if my mind on you changes and/or I find something interesting.In post 612, Sotty7 wrote:So you have nothing at all to ask me about anything in the game?
Not really at all contradictory. I don't want to move my vote because other options I kind of like (Cloud, TwoFace, maybe you) don't appear to have much in traction at the moment.In post 623, VictorDeAngelo wrote: So you don't want to move your own vote because you don't think it would be useful off of either of the major wagons.
But you also question people won't move their votes off of a major wagon onto you.
Somewhat contradictory isn't it?
As for me, there was a groundswell of interest in a wagon on me in the couple of pages immediately prior. A single vote and a hard push could have easily produced a wagon. It didn't, or at least hasn't happened yet.-
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Jaack Goon
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As of right now I'm happy with my sotty vote. She's my strongest scumread and has an active wagon on her. I'm going to focus my interests there for the time being.In post 638, VictorDeAngelo wrote: Do you have any plans to change that?
A bit, at least in the sense that my townread on Maria might be wrong.In post 638, VictorDeAngelo wrote: Are you not concerned about Maria's vote on you?
I've already addressed her concerns about me and she offered any other reasons to be scumreading me since this 524, where she basically admits that her reasons for scumreading me were less than adequate.
Now since then, others have offered reasons to scumread me (mainly my lack of major postings and my 'voteparking' on sotty) which she hasn't commented on, even just an 'I agree' type of thing.-
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Jaack Goon
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Okay let me spam the thread even more with an I agree to every single thing said on you.In post 642, MariaR wrote:
No in all srs your townread weakens if someone votes you? That's new at least to me talk to me on that
You haven't really done much and everything you have done would be me just parroting about your going UTR and just coasting I have no new comment to add besides the light shade you just threw[/quote]
Well help me clear things up so I can get your train of thought right.
1. In 524, you conceded all your points on me.
2. You unvoted BBT in 551.
3. BlackVoid posted his reasons for scumreading me in 567. As far as I can tell, this is what started the interest in me as a scum choice (Hoopla and GreyIce would soon follow in assert interest in me as scum).
In 572 you expressed a continued interest in me as a scum candidate, but weren't interested in voting me because there was no traction on the wagon.
4. This is where Hoopla and GreyIce, and maybe someone else I don't remember sort of fall in line on the whole "Jaack is under the radar and lurking" deal. GreyIce actually addresses me about things.
5. I address these concerns in 611 and essentially challenge someone to vote me if they are scumreading me.
6. You post 618 without addressing me.
7. You nakedly vote me in 622.
8. You justify it in 642, repeating the idea that I was just coasting.
That section is mostly for my own reference right now, but if there is anything that is incorrect, feel free to correct it.
My first actual question is this: Were you scumreading me between 524 and 567?-
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Jaack Goon
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Jaack Goon
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Fair enough.In post 653, MariaR wrote: My sr on you lessened by a considerable amount I still need to do SOMETHING though and you're the biggest person I sr besides victor I'm at a lack of sr's so just going with what I got.
Moving forward, you express your scumread in me in 572. I didn't post anything since you say your scumread on me lessened. In this time frame (524 through 572) BlackVoid and Sotty kind of agreed that I could be scum due to my voteparking and general lurkiness.
Did you agree with this sentiment?-
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Jaack Goon
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Okay, moving along.In post 656, MariaR wrote: I don't agree with the vote parking that's just a bit overkill and I don't really sr that the lurking kinda if you count lurking and coasting as the same thing.
Why did you neither vote me or attempt to engage me in 572. You say in the post that you don't see my lynch happening, but this was immediately following sotty and BlackVoid discussing me in 566 and 567, so I'm not fully buying that explination.-
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Jaack Goon
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Okay but why didn't you try to engage me?In post 660, MariaR wrote: Because everyone can say this sr ___ but looking at the wagons that were happening (scoty and BBT) I doubted that people would go for you because the 2 main wagons already seemed established already-
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Jaack Goon
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Okay, whatever...In post 663, MariaR wrote: uhh does this mean vote you or talk to you (I'ma assume talk)
I normally only talk to people first when I have a question or if I wanna goof I'm not really one to engage people much it's something I need to work on
Last question for now - What changed that made you vote me when you did?-
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Jaack Goon
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Okay lets get to the sotty stuff, and then we'll address more recent concerns.
(Bolded added for emphasis)In post 271, Sotty7 wrote:Rask - Thanks for the meta input.I think it might be better for us to continue this once BBT comes back and starts posting more. I'll put a pin in it for now.
I didn't even notice he wasn't voting anymore. Town read downgraded.In post 225, Raskolnikov wrote:Twoface being like antisocial and giving a "fuck you" vibe doesn't get any points but it's hard to judge it from style from an alt without meta available. Him not voting anyone despite seeming to have problems with people is kind of weird to me. Would think he'd vote victor or maybe cloud at this point given the things he said.
I really don't care about the coin flip thing, I'm not taking it to mean he is letting the coin decide his vote expect maybe in the initial stages of the game. It's a quirk I'm fine with. The lack of a voting is more damaging than anything else, you should always be trying to work your vote as it's your strongest tool. Not only that but it provides info about were you stand at any given time, not to mention potential VCA's. It's day one Twoface, what are you waiting for, vote your top scum read and lets get going.
Why were you about to vote victor? Cutting through GM's style I fnd myself agreeing with things she has posted (hoopla stuff, BBT stuff, maybe not so much Victor stuff)In post 241, Raskolnikov wrote:Was about to vote victor actually but his response makes me think town, and goodmorning's push on him has been weird.Why don't you come and join me on BBT instead?I know you kinda want to.
I'm not really interested in a Victor vote. His stuff on Twoface is mostly good and I haven't hated his responses to GM. If he addresses Hoopla's questions, that would be even better.
This feels contradictory. Her case on BBT was a good part meta, but after Rask sort of argues against that (209), sotty wants to simultaneously drop discussion of BBT's meta while also getting Rask to vote?
Sotty eventually switches her vote over to TwoFace (311) until BBT comes back and its right back to that wagon(466).
But in that interim, she does very little to push on that TwoFace vote. In fact she even pushes him to vote BBT in 334. The push on TwoFace looks kind of like a placeholder until BBT returns, because sotty is aware that camping on a non-entity doesn't look good.
Overall, I just feel there's a strange fixation early on that seems unnatural. But now that the BBT/GreyIce wagon has come to pass, sotty seems to be no longer concerned with too much with pushing it.
Other than that ordeal and the stuff from the early game that I've already covered, most of sotty's posts are in the meh range. It's enough where I continue to be comfortable with my vote.
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Moving right along, I want to wrap-up my little dialogue with Maria earlier.
I had downgraded my read of her as I had said in 641.
I felt there was a easy to see scum-narritive there. She made a weak initial push on me, one of the inactives. After I kind of shut that down and she failed to get any traction she moved away, but after interest in me organically sprung up she was back to voting me. It felt more like she was scum who had me as one of her own designated scumreads than town actually convinced I was scum.
But with Maria kind of pushing back on most of the others' reasons for scumreading me (656) I do feel better about her.-
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Jaack Goon
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I'm sorry, but how at all is this a useful reads list? And then bragging about it in 780? You literally have no justification for anything. The only two actual references to something that's happened are something scummy you thought hoopla did (while you are townreading that slot) and something towny you though BBT did (you are scumreading that slot).In post 757, I Am Innocent wrote:
Just from the catchup, for instance ur unvote/contradiction from an earlier stance where you don't like to wait until deadline to get claims would have been a negative point:In post 750, Hoopla wrote:Can you post a list of your reads from town --> scum? Maybe even with scores if you're feeling friendly?
Town: Cloud, Hoopla, BlackVoid, Victor, Sotty
Null/Town Lean: Rask, TwoFace, Michel, Maria
Null Scum: GoodMorning
Scum: GreyIce, Jaack
3 of the town reads dropped strong town tells (including yourself), both scum read dropped a early game scum tells in addition to poor posts. Good Morning to did not have one positive post either. BBT was the only of my scum reads to have a good post, and it was for his early vote on the Rask wagon since I saw something there early on. Of course Rask has since been more townie, so that one post doesn't offset the number of bad posts/scum tell that slot dropped.
Now you can say you have this magical list and you aren't going to share it because "they'll stop dropping those scumtells" but that makes your accusations 100% useless. Especially considering you go against that in the quoted post - you do give an example of something scummy that Hoopla did. So give evidence or stop parading around as some town paragon. Even if GI and I are scum (which I'm not, and I don't think GI is either) and we would purposely stop dropping these scumtells, it doesn't mean they don't already exist in thread as evidence.
The contradiction is that you push rask to vote BBT immediately after saying you'll wait and allow BBT to post more.In post 795, Sotty7 wrote:
I asked Rask's opionon of my BBT meta which was from awhile back. She said I was wrong I said okay, let me wait for BBT to post more and we can take it from there. Nothing contradictory.In post 754, Jaack wrote:This feels contradictory. Her case on BBT was a good part meta, but after Rask sort of argues against that (209), sotty wants to simultaneously drop discussion of BBT's meta while also getting Rask to vote?
Upon further examination, I will concede this. I didn't originally feel as if your discussions with TwoFace were particularly productive and it felt more like you were biding your time until BBT came back and you could focus on him again. On a second read, I don't think you're pushes on TwoFace are as intense as your pushes on BBT, which does give me pause, but it's the smoking gun I considered it before.In post 795, Sotty7 wrote:
Okay that's just blatantly untrue. I push Twoface hard and we have an extensive back and forth that could have easily became a death tunnel. I am interacting and questioning twoface who starts off answering me and then just really falls back to insulting and taking pot shots at me. I pushed his voting behavior, I asked him for several reads a couple of pages back that he still hasn't provided. What would you consider "pushing a scum read"? Vote them then disappear for several pages and never interacting or questioning them again like you have been doing with me?In post 754, Jaack wrote:But in that interim, she does very little to push on that TwoFace vote.
As for the shade on me, I get it. I screwed up by being lazy and not participating for a good section of this game. If I get lynched for it that's on me. But that fact that you keep bringing up every time I try and do something now is counterproductive. Well, at least it's detrimental to me trying to contribute. Just because I had a bad start to the game doesn't mean I can't have something to say now.-
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Jaack Goon
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I will try and make this as clear as I can
In post 271, Sotty7 wrote:Rask - Thanks for the meta input. I think it might be better for us to continue this once BBT comes back and starts posting more. I'll put a pin in it for now.
I find there two aspects of 271 to be contradictory.In post 271, Sotty7 wrote: Why don't you come and join me on BBT instead?-
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My townread on Hoopla has definitely declined a bit with how she's tried to force town towards me or GI. That being said, I kind of liked her stuff regarding IAI so she more in nullish territory.
I still prefer sotty as a lynch, but I could definitely go for an IAI lynch as well.
PEdit: Victor wouldn't be my first choice, but I might be able to be convinced. Could someone outline a brief case there?-
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In post 870, MariaR wrote: I don't hate anyone! ;-;
Blatant contradiction, confscumIn post 866, MariaR wrote: I h8 u-
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In post 594, VictorDeAngelo wrote:
Totally agree with this.Hoopla wrote:
I agree with this. My biggest pet peeve in mafia is the amount of D1's that wait until the last 48 hours to compromise, leaving little time to analyse a claim, and often reducing the town to chaotic scrambling if that wagon dissipates.In post 592, BlackVoid wrote:With that said, it looks like BBT is play for today. Hopefully we can L-1 a wagon and get a claim to assess before getting too close to the deadline.
Alright, as much as I want to tear 588 apart, GM can wait.
[This is Jaack editing out the vote on BBT because I get anal about quoting votes and normally just cut them out but it's kind of important to the context of the blind quote]
I was reviewing various iso's and I ran across this victor post I don't like. While I understand not wanting to allow the day to dwindle down to deadline, this looks like an excuse not to deal with GM's post 588. It's not as if victor has gone all in on trying to lynch BBT/GI... he's been fine with touching on a wide variety of subjects.
I'm not overly enamored with the cases I've read regarding victor, but he's more likely to be scum than GI, and it doesn't look like sotty and IAI are going to be options at this point.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: VictorDeAngelo-
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Jaack
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Jaack Goon
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With TwoFace now being confirmed as town, I think it's worth bringing up sotty-scum again. Yeah, the wagon stalled yesterday, but looking back at that, it's odd that there were two townies (myself and TwoFace) hanging out on that wagon for a good portion of the day, but the wagon failed to gain much traction past that. Neither TwoFace or I were ever really universally townread, so, if sotty were town, it would be a strong opportunity for scum to push that wagon and then let the blame fall on TwoFace, or, more likely, me.
VOTE: Sotty7
At the same time, I could definitely go for an IAI wagon as well.
PEdit: Well what do you know, someone else would like a sotty wagon.-
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I'm not talking about the difficulty of starting a wagon on you now, but yesterday. While a lot of people may have suspected you, only TwoFace and I actually stuck with a vote on you for very long.In post 1152, Sotty7 wrote: The fact you think that no one fancies a wagon on me is ridiculous. Nearly everyone in the game has positioned themselves to vote for me at some point today. I fully expect to be one of the major centers of attention, especially now with that kill.
What are your reasons for wanting a IAI wagon?
As for IAI, his D1 entrance was awful, with suspicions on two townies (GI and myself) who also just happened to have been the favorite wagons at the time. Oh and remember how everyone was starting to doubt their Hoopla townreads at the end of D1? Look at IAI's first scumread of the day (1133).-
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My inclination is that the wagon was stalled because there simply wasn't enough town support for it to end the day, but the town off the wagon was too fractured to come up a viable alternative. I mean, the best we could do was victor, and I'll admit I was never all that gung ho about a victor wagon, just that he was a far better choice than GreyIce.In post 1162, Sotty7 wrote: Your IAI points are solid.
What do you think of just how long it took to actually lynch Grey yesterday?
Of course, I'm not all that thrilled with this conclusion. Why do you think it took so long?
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Since he seems to be a popular point of discusion, I'll chime in on Rask.
The two primary concerns people seem to have with rask are that he disappeared when he was getting universally townread and that he was waffling around at the end of the day. The first reason I totally get, but the second reason seems a bit off to me. If we believe victor's claim then there's no reason for scumrask to waffle between them to the extent that he did - the day would end in a mislynch either way. And in general, his waffling at the end of the day feels more town to me than not, but the above reason is the only concrete one I really have.-
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In general, I haven't gotten the sense that she's trying to make any friends/doesn't seem to care what people think.
More specifically, I don't think that scum would so strongly doubt your claim, at least at this point. It's the type of thing that draws unnecessary attention.-
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Jaack Goon
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This is a fair enough assessment, but I don't agree with your conclusion that gm is scum. Overall your case feels more like "gm has done some things that could have been done with scum motivation" as opposed to "gm has done actively scummy things." In this particular case, I think its far more likely that gm is stubborn town as opposed to lazy scum.In post 1317, Raskolnikov wrote: Yeah but at the same time doubting the claim is easier for gm than coming up with new reads, and she can maintain everything from yesterday without change. And mason claim makes it an easy scumread because you're not expected to do that much about it. I agree it brings attention though I already voted her at that point.
How she does it too "(which is totally not Scum's favourite FC or anything, nope)." is kind of absurd also, and how gm super scumreads victor. Apparently all of it still on the entrance and the semantics argument he had. I don't buy you scumread someone early that much you stop reading them and are still ultra confident, then see mason claim and are still 100%, and go as far as implying mason claim is even likely or common for scum to continue (how does she even get to that conclusion?).-
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Jaack Goon
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Let me rephraseIn post 1361, Raskolnikov wrote:
Things which have more scum motivation to them than town motivation = scummy things.In post 1350, Jaack wrote:This is a fair enough assessment, but I don't agree with your conclusion that gm is scum. Overall your case feels more like "gm has done some things that could have been done with scum motivation" as opposed to "gm has done actively scummy things." In this particular case, I think its far more likely that gm is stubborn town as opposed to lazy scum.
I think a lot of your case on gm boils down to you looking for scum motivations behind everything gm has done, regardless of how likely those explinations are. You offer a possible reason that scum-gm could continue her scumread on victor, but it's far more likely, at least from my perspective that she is stubborn town rather than scum trying to find a tunnel that will allow her to not do anything.
While the scum-explination is possible, I think that overall, most of gm's play this game looks to come from town. She's not town to the point that I would be shocked by a scum flip, but I think town is more likely.-
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Jaack Goon
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I can confirm that sotty is telling the truth as far as me going nowhere N1.
I also don't really like how cloud reacted to me asking him to explain his sotty read.
I don't have time right now to go fully into everything regarding cloud, bu the following post gives me scumfeels:
On the one hand, cloud gives his reasons for scumreading sotty. At the same time he tries to excuse his scumread by saying he hasn't read sotty recently and didn't actually want to hammer.In post 1407, CloudKicker wrote:@jaack i wanted a claim and i havent read the day or what post you are reffering to. I havent even actually read sotty for a while but she constantly put shade on me for not actual reason, this is exactly what mafia whos being wagoned would do : they cant include strong town/active players too much on their scumpool so they have to includes thoses who are less active and null from a town pov, she literraly never outed a singel reason why am i mafia but poe and says im scummy -> this is a scumplay imo
Now, i wasnt actually going to hammer but i wanted a claim
Moving along, I really didn't like this:
First of all, this sounds way too much like cloud knows that this is a mislynch. So far we've had one mislynch, but if sotty is scum, like cloud seems to think, there's no real reason to make this kind of statement. This also looks like excusing himself for not getting nkilled, which isn't something town should be thinking about, especially at this point in the game.In post 1418, CloudKicker wrote:Also depending on the flip, i dont think that the way it goes i am a good nk target, this means that eventually ill survive to a lylo situation if we keep mling ppl and ill have to be more active, when this will happen i will step up my game.
And btw sotty, i still want your claim and if you even dare to make a bad post or excuse yourself about not claiming in your few next posts, i will iso you and fuck you up if i end up sring you.
And the second half of this post makes it look like he's not currently scumreading sotty at all and just wants a claim. I don't know why town-cloud would be so desperate for sotty to claim if he wasn't actually interested in lynching her, as he said previously.
Overall, I just see a lot of stuff from cloud that doesn't make sense from a town mindset. While I still think there's a chance that sotty is scum, I'm more comfortable with a cloud vote at this time.
VOTE: CloudKicker-
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Jaack Goon
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Well, if its all a misunderstanding then you should be able to answer my questions.In post 1447, CloudKicker wrote:LOL this is how you can misunderstand everything and jump to conclusions in a nutshell. Jaack you have been wrong on me the whole game, i didnt actively read sotty content but she still kept throwing shade to me, like i evocated several times in my recent posts and you still somehow ignore all of this and 180% on your whole game scumread. You also didnt even left the vote on her for a claim nor did you comment on her claim but that you didnt visit. Depending on the flip means that i would probably be a good nk target if it flips scum and not if it flips town.
Heres how inconsistent you are :
-Jaack foses me all game for light reason, never go into details, he hardfos sotty and pushes on her
-I am showing intent on hammering sotty, asking a claim
-Jack unvote and ask me why i showed intent/scumread her
-I show why i felt like sotty is having a scumplay atm and how her reads on me makes 0 sens
-Jack then doesnt think about sotty being mafia from his firsts reads, he should actually tr me for being his top sr's sr, she even included us both in multiple scumpool
-He litterraly flip onto me 180d just because of a few posts, going back to all his reads and doesnt comment on sotty's claim more than that.
I asked sotty to claim, your scum read, and you fos me for it
First, why did you want sotty to claim if you didn't want to lynch her?-
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Jaack Goon
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With this as an assumption, you would also essentially have to assume that victor was scum as well. Neither TwoFace nor I would have been very likely mason partners for victor (I was voting him at the end of the day and TwoFace had a pretty nasty back-and-forth with victor). If sotty was a role cop, that would mean scum had two assets to find a mason and used neither of them for that purpose. I find that hard to believe.In post 1457, BlackVoid wrote:On Sotty7's claim - I don't buy her night actions. It seems too much of a co-incidence to me that one of Sotty7's biggest antagonist was nightkilled and the other was tracked by her.
It seems more likely she's scum, figured out that TwoFace and Jaack were her biggest threats during the night, killed one, and rolecopped/tracked the other.
I guess sotty could be a scum tracker with victor as a mason, but I definitely can't see sotty as a scum role cop with victor as a mason.
I'm still concerned with cloud. It seemed like for most of the game whenever someone gave the slightest whiff that they thought he could be scum, he would immediately start scumreading them back, but 1447 seemed like a big shift away from that. My mental narrative is that I actually hit something that scumcloud knows is legitimately scummy and could stick and he shifted to damage control, but I'm struggling with where to go further with this.
As for the Hoopla wagon and related breakdown of the sotty wagon, I'm actually feeling more confident in sotty being scum at this point then I was when I unvoted (where I was starting to doubt myself due to cloud's activities). D1, the BBT/GI wagon stalled and people unvoted on occasion, but it never collapsed at any point. The sotty wagon, meanwhile, collapsed as soon as I unvoted and started looking elsewhere. I think that points to some scum bussing but looking for an easy out. There's a lot of 'not totally buying that claim but whatever' going around as well which I think feeds into that theory as well. As for hoopla herself
I think lynching sotty is probably our best option at this point. There's been too much doubtcasting on sotty's claim to make it a neccessary target for scum N2 if she is town. Double that if we don't lynch scum today.
VOTE: Sotty7-
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Jaack Goon
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Jaack Goon
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Actually, I'd rather post than sleep right now
I'll try and clarify a bit since people seem to be having trouble.In post 1480, Sotty7 wrote:
People unvoted because of the claim from what I can tell. Not because you unvoted and looked elsewhere. Can you explain to me why you're debating if I could be a scum role cop or not, or why that makes any sense to do at this point? The two paragraghps at the start of this post make no sense to me. The whole post is disjointed. You could have just came out and said "I don't believe the claim" and revoted. It would have made more sense.In post 1470, Jaack wrote:As for the Hoopla wagon and related breakdown of the sotty wagon, I'm actually feeling more confident in sotty being scum at this point then I was when I unvoted (where I was starting to doubt myself due to cloud's activities). D1, the BBT/GI wagon stalled and people unvoted on occasion, but it never collapsed at any point. The sotty wagon, meanwhile, collapsed as soon as I unvoted and started looking elsewhere. I think that points to some scum bussing but looking for an easy out. There's a lot of 'not totally buying that claim but whatever' going around as well which I think feeds into that theory as well. As for hoopla herself
I unvoted you in 1403 afte Cloud gave intent. He later stated that he was trying to get a claim although he did not vote you to put you back at L-1. That's where I felt the wagon sort of stalled, although now that I'm thinking about it, it was 100% cloud who stalled it by not revoting.
I brought up the role cop thing because BV brought it up in 1457 where he said that he suspected you were a scum investigative. I tried to work out why you as scum would investigate me in anyway, and came to the conclusion that if scum had a rolecop and targeted me with it last night, than victor is likely lying about being a mason, as I would imagine that scum would use their rolecop to try and find the other mason. That being said, now that I'm actually explaining this more I realize that that is not the most useful insight because we could never confirm if a scum investigative targeted me N1. Whatever. You probably aren't going to get lynched again today so it's unlikely to matter right now.
I also just noticed that I left out my analysis of hoopla in my post in question aside from the transition into it. I do want to talk about hoopla's wagon, but I want to talk about cloud more first because I feel like I'm the only one concerned with this.
I first want to highlight posts 1447, 1456, and 1477. All three were from when I was trying to illucidate cloud's behavoir towards the sotty wagon. All three posts feel like cloud is talking to someone he believes is town - he's not trying to antagonize me and tries to play it up like I'm just making a mistake and I've got him all wrong.
Then he votes me in 1483, right after maria does, later justifying it with my 'inconsistency' (1509). The general feeling I get is that when I was pushing him he was trying to make my suspicion go away, but now that I'm a viable lynch option he's totally willing to jump on that.
Okay now I really need to sleep. I would respond more to the fact that I'm being wagoned but I already know that one of the people on my wagon (maria) has literally no reason for scumreading me, and no one else has given anything concrete.-
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Jaack Goon
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It's not flawed logic. You say youwanted a claim from sotty. With her at L-2 at the time, why didn't you vote her?In post 1565, CloudKicker wrote:Youre not wrong in that i did appeal to you, you still didnt come around and now i want you to claim, saying iam the one who staled the sotty's wagon by not putter her on L-1 when YOU unvoted is being hypocrite and flawed logic boi
Also, explain my scum motivation for inviting sotty, since you claim my inconsistency is why you are voting me.-
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Jaack Goon
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The problem is that you should have voted if you wanted her to claim. You had ample opportunity between my unvote and her claim and you had no reason to expect her to claim at L-2.In post 1580, CloudKicker wrote: It was L-1, you unvoted, i just didnt vote her to reput her at L-1 and she claimed anyway so idk whats your problem
I'm not sure what it means yet, but it's a clear disconnect between your actions and your claimed intentions.-
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Jaack Goon
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This is the most annoying thing about this game.In post 1611, goodmorning wrote:That it exists.
None of the votes have any attached reasoning with them at all. I have a mild townread on Jaack. Suffice it to say I'm not voting there.
I mean, Maria's had a scumread on me sincepage 14and hasn't done anything to argue I was scum that entire time. She just says stuff like 'hey vote jaack' or 'I would vote jaack but no one else is'
Rask's vote is because I feel fake all of the sudden? But he doesn't point out a single post where that's the case.
Cloud's voting me basically because I'm scumreading him. When I asked him to extrapolate on his vote on me in 1578 he ignored me.
Hoopla's voting me because there are town on my wagon I think? Inertia from D1 reads?
Now I've been meaning to chime in on the Hoopla wagon, and I'm warming up to it. I'm currently reading her as null because I felt a lot of her D1 was solid town stuff, even if she was wrong about both GI and me. But her D2 has been lacking to say the least. I don't really like the opening of 1266. It feels a little revisionist - there was nothing about BBT's D1 that made that slot doomed other than town apathy to finding a decent alternative. Seems a bit like she's trying to distance herself from participation on the GI wagon, but it's not a smoking gun to me. In general, there's a lot of that in Hoopla's posts. Stuff that could be from scum, but nothing that makes me compelled to vote.
I'm not super convinced of her being scum though. I'd much rather lynch sotty or cloud today, but it seems I'm alone in both cases. I can at least understand why people are unwilling to vote sotty due to her claim, but I really feel that people are giving cloud to much leeway due to his playstyle.
I'm also concerned that currently 100% of the Hoopla wagon is made up of people on the GI lynch. But whatever, it's not a great wagon but its an okay one, and okay is better than the actual worst (which is my wagon).
VOTE: Hoopla-
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Jaack Goon
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Yeah, i guess you could say it's opportunistic in that it looks like it's my best opportunity to lynch scum today since no one else wants to vote cloud or sotty. I'm not in love with scum-hoopla but she's none too high on my town reads either.In post 1613, MariaR wrote:Jaack you want more fine first of all that vote you made was opportunistic as fuck "I was kinda okay with a Hoopia wagon" nanana you're just voting it to save your own ass you only pop up when it's convenient for you and you've coasted a hella ton this game the fact your wagon has so much fight to it shows that Hoop is a counter wagon
That all being said, your scum read on me predates my hoopla vote by weeks. You should have more than that.
Moving right along, you say I only show up when it's convenient for me? Wouldn't it have been convenient of me to allow the sotty wagon to go through? Wouldn't it have been convenient of me to lynch GI yesterday when I was option number 2? I don't really want to self read, so give me concrete examples of me showing up only when it's convenient so I can tell you why you're wrong.
And it's not like you've done anything worthwhile this whole game. While you've been scum reading me the whole game, the only two times you've actually given reasons are when I've pried them out of you. You haven't done anything to change people's minds regarding BV, your other scumread either.
I'll admit that I haven't posted as much as I like, but I try and get something accomplished with every one of my posts. You've had hard scumreads on two players for most of this game but have done nothing to see those through.
And finally, this counterwagon garbage again. First of all, it's patently false - Hoopla was a wagon today before I was. But it doesn't matter which came first, what matters is the quality of the wagon. And while I might not be in love with the hoopla wagon, the reasoning for its existence is infinitely better than the reasoning for mine.
I think your town Maria, but you're dead wrong on me.-
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Jaack Goon
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What about him? As a lynch candidate? He's a weak town read for me right now but I admittedly haven't been paying him much attention.In post 1615, goodmorning wrote: What about Creature?-
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I've reviewed creature, and mantain a slight townlean there. His posts are lean but I don't really feel much scum coming from them.
I don't want to lynch BV, Rask, or GM today, and a victor lynch is probably a bad idea lathough his utter lack of participation today is pretty disenheartening. Oh yeah, and while Maria is annoying, I'm not interested in that lynch either.
I'm still okay with a Hoopla lynch, but not enthralled.
Sotty and Cloud are the dream lynches.
I could lynch IAI too if we have the support.-
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Jaack Goon
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Not to disrail what's going on here with Maria et al, but I think Cloud is the right lynch today.
His actions surrounding sotty's claim are highly suspect. He gives intent to hammer her, but backtracks after I unvote and start questioning him about his vote, saying he never really intended to hammer her. Then sotty comes in and claims anyway? At L-2? It feels like that was a scum scheme gone awry. Cloud didn't vote for Sotty to put her back at L-1 in case I had a twitchy trigger finger and hammered in spite of her claim.
I was pretty confused by that turn of the events, but it makes more sense after the end of D2 when cloud basically hard defended sotty on the virtue of her claim alone.
VOTE: CloudKicker
I'm more willing to lynch Maria today than I was D2, primarily because she was the only non-sotty person who brought up the idea that the twoface kill framed sotty. Could have been a scum talking point, since the twoface nk was not a traditional choice with a claimed mason out there. I wouldn't be opposed to lynching her, but my priority is cloud. It's possible she's been subverting site meta by hardtownreading her partners or it's possible she's just been wrong about everything.-
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I've been thinking Cloud+Hoopla made a decent amount of sense, but I'd want to lynch cloud first for sure. Cloud+GM is something that is a possibilty I'm open to, but I'm not feeling it all to stronglyIn post 1988, Raskolnikov wrote:I don't think it can be cloud+maria together, given their early talk. Cloud+GM or cloud+hoopla fit on first glance, though.
Cloud+Maria doesn't make all that much sense to me, but if Cloud does flip town, then the chance of Maria being scum go way up. But I think he's going to flip scum based both on his own scummy actions and his behavoir around the sotty wagons yesterday.-
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Jaack Goon
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Cloud, saying you're an obvious lynch candidate does nothing to help your case. In fact, it reminds me of the start of D2 when sotty started calling herself an obvious lynch candidate. You weren't preordained as a lynch candidate from the start -- at the end of D2, only Rask and I were particularly interested in lynching you. There's a ton of weird interactions between you and sotty beyond just your late attempts to save her. Furthermore, there was simply too much resistance to sotty's lynch at the end of D2 for it to be 100% a bus.
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I will add one thing else. While at the start of the day I was reconsidering gm as a scum candidate, I'm pretty sure she's town now thinking about the IAI flip. There were a decent amount of IAI scumreads going around D1 and D2 but in all the counterwagons that developed yesterday, the only vote for IAI was by gm. My guess as to why is that scum was playing with the assumption that he was the other mason and knew that a wagon on him would be a waste of time as he wouldn't get lynched once he claimed.-
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Jaack Goon
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The fact that you did it based on mechanics over reads is actually worse for you. Maria can very easily just be misguided town. You were unwilling to outright sotty but you were also unwilling to lynch her.In post 2058, CloudKicker wrote:im not claiming, i dont really give ashit about the massclaim thingy, im tote town and this is completly stupid. @jack im obvious a good lynch candidate, maybe cause i hard defended scum? while everyone forget that idid based on mechanics and not reads like maria did
That's pretty much fine, although I think it might make more sense for me to claim last since Maria and Cloud still seem to have some suspicion of you, while everyone seems to agree I'm town. It doesn't matter all that much since we're both town, so I'll just let arona make the final choice.In post 2065, BlackVoid wrote: How does everyone feel about an order like this?
Cloud
Creature
MafiaR
Rask
GM
Jaack
BV
We can keep tweaking it until people are okay with the concensus. Obviously I exclude Hoopla (VT) and Arona (Mason) from the list.-
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Jaack Goon
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Cloud, everything you say is really just digging you deeper. All your explanations sound like they're made up after-the-fact. You telling me I'm wrong does nothing to change my mind.
It's not PoE that's burying you, it your and sotty's actions throughout the game. So far, I've mainly focused on what you've done in my casemaking against you, but here's something that sotty did as well that I find points to you
Sotty had a cheesy null-scum read on you all game, in fact from 60 (which was, coincidentally the post that made me scumread her in the first place). But then there's this post here:
This does not look like the mindset of someone who has expressed a mild interest in you as a scum option. First of all, I was the only person particularly concerned with you at the time, so it's certainly an overexaggeration to say you were under significant pressure. The second thing is that you've repeated one of her talking points in your own defense today with regards to your attempts at pulling out claims.In post 1480, Sotty7 wrote: People are all up in arms about Cloud threatening to hammer me, but he did the same thing with Grey and it could easily be this Epic mafia style or whatever. Creature has now twice jumped onto blooming weak wagons with no thoughts or logic to back up either vote.
That's a nice segway into my next topic. Claims.
You asked GI to claim in 650.
You asked sotty to claim in 1400.
You asked Hoopla to claim in 1477.
You asked me to claim in 1565. (I was only at L-2 at the time!)
And now you won't claim when it's pretty much consensus that you ought to. I'd say more, but I don't think I really need to extrapolate.-
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*Sigh*In post 2136, CloudKicker wrote:@rask not claiming yet
You're at L-1, with multiple people off the wagon agreeing you're the best lynch of the day. Don't be a hypocrite and just claim already. Dragging it out isn't going to save you. If you try some PR claim at deadline to leave us scrambling for a lynch, know it's not going to work. We lynched a PR claim yesterday and it turned out better.
As far as creature goes, I kinda get the scum case on him, but at the same time I'm not feeling all that much scum-motivation from what he's doing. His general absense at the end of D2 makes it a bit harder to read, but I feel like it wouldn't be advantageous to scum to avoid the sotty lynch. Either try and stop it or bus for townpoints.
From sotty's point of view, she was townreading michel pretty clearly but scumreading creature. Not really feeling much there either.-
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I'm pretty singleminded at this point honestly but... eh maybe Hoopla idk? I might be able to get behind Maria as well. Some of BV points on her are getting to me.
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Eh, unlike with GM or Maria there's nothing in her play thay seems very unlikely to come from scum. I do agree with rask that townhoopla is likely too useful to lynch on a weak readIn post 2200, BlackVoid wrote:
Hoopla's been a tough one to read right from the beginning. Sotty7In post 2197, Creature wrote:Was Hoopla's play today better?wasbuddying her quite a bit though. I got excited for a moment where I thought she was making a fake-townslip about daytalk despite reading the rules but I don't know if that means anything. Like goodmorning, she got onto some bad wagons like the Jaack wagon yesterday but overall, I think she's town. Why? Do you have any reservations about her?-
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Jaack Goon
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Trying to swing the lynch to IAI at the end of D2 is the main thing. The fact that that wagon never developed D2 despite a decent amount of people (myself included) being interested leads me to believe that scum had figured out he was the other mason and decided to not waste their time with that lynch.In post 2206, BlackVoid wrote: @Jaack, so what is it about GM that's unlikely to come from scum? There were a couple of things I noticed but I'm not sure if you are referring to the same points.
ScumGM trying to swing a lynch to IAI accomplishes what exactly? Either he would claim or arona would confirm and then it's right back to lynching sotty.-
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Feels to me like Maria has decided BV is scum and is looking for reasons to scumread him.In post 2267, Creature wrote:Calling the council of not dumb players to analyse 2236.
But to resond more specifically, I don't see why BV would have to bus sorry for towncred when he was the most consensus town player there was at the time. Sotty's lynch wasn't inevitable at the time so it's not like he had to move on it to mantain those townreads.
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