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Persivul Survivor
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Persivul Survivor
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Just RVS.In post 8, Mizzytastic wrote:Persivul, you honestly think self voting there is scummy or that just an RVS vote?-
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That argument gets tossed around a lot, but RVS derphammers are really rare.In post 10, Kappy wrote:I don't like RVS wagons because it's too easy for someone to accidentally hammer if they come in and don't read the thread.-
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Good point. Kappy, if you don't like RVS wagons, why are you still on one?In post 13, Mizzytastic wrote:Soooo, if thats your worry, how worried do you feel at L-3 and with one of the votes being your own?-
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OK, missed that.In post 19, Kappy wrote:I am voting for sickofit, not myself.-
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That's fine by itself. The issue is that he then lied when he said he didn't know he was hopping on a wagon.In post 28, Kappy wrote:Maybe he just didn't feel like changing it.-
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You still self voted.In post 30, Kappy wrote:For not realizing I changed my vote.-
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Persivul
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You have that backwards. People tend to be more careful as scum than as town.In post 57, Sickofit1138 wrote:Actually Percivuls general misunderstanding and not reading the thread spells s-c-u-m-m-y to me at least-
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As wifom applies to like 90% of the game, pointing out its possibility adds nothing.In post 61, Chumba wrote:You knowing that though just means you can play messy as scum and use that to your advantage-
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I understand that, and by itself it doesn't bother me. The problem is that you said in 9, "In post 49, Sickofit1138 wrote:Since you are still on this topic and apparently don't understand, I posted my vote and it got to the preview and it showed the two first votes and I was like ehwho cares I'm fine with a wagon.i didnt know i was hopping on a wagon"
One of the bolded is an outright lie. Which one is the lie, and why did you make it?-
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What, are you saying that he didn't really think a wagon was happening, but just had the thought that,In post 68, Chumba wrote:In post 66, Chumba wrote:I actually read that as he was ok with a wagon happening.hey, if a wagon?werehappening, I'd be OK with that...-
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He told us what he was supposedly thinking. You don't need to guess at it or interpret it.In post 70, Chumba wrote:I can't speak to what he was thinking. I'm just saying that's how I interpreted it.
There are lots of issues on D1 that aren't that damning. Small issues can lead to bigger ones. Is it your policy to defend anyone against a charge that you don't find that damning? I doubt it, so...why are you defending in this case?Either way I don't think it's that damning.-
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In a 13 player game, 3, or 23%, are usually scum. Early in D1 you can draw any five names and say one of them is probably scum. In other words, that was a really safe and meaningless observation.In post 113, ShadyHood wrote:Of which one of the five has an excellent chance to be scum.-
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Incorrect. Scum like to make observations which kinda sorta sound like scum hunting but are actually safe and don't rock other people's reads too much. That's what you did. Me pointing that out is scum hunting.In post 120, ShadyHood wrote:Yet your response to my post is ironically the meaningless observation,
Mine is more meaningful by far. I pointed the finger at one person - you. You pointed at five people, said one might be scum, and made no attempt to sort them further. You didn't even beat random odds.I brought up a subject that one of the five can be scum, then you try to shut the topic down with a lack of town-motivated reason, which of our post's is more meaningful?
If you had said something like,One of the wagon A,B,C,D,E is probably scum. I'm town reading A & D, so that means one of B,C,E,that would have at least narrowed things down to less than random odds, and would have been somewhat meaningful.-
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Because you're intentionally being ambiguous in order to appear to be scum hunting without actually doing so.In post 132, ShadyHood wrote: Why did I say thatoneof them has an excellent chance to be scum and didn't mention a chance of town in my post?-
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You keep dodging the real issue. The above is fine, by itself. But in 9, you said "i didnt know i was hopping on a wagon."In post 134, Sickofit1138 wrote:I am huge eye candy for an easy scum lunch d1. It's definitely happened before. My play style is sloppy and I am admitting that but it's a reach to say I'm contradicting myself for it. I explained what happened.I saw the wagon after I pressed post and it showed the first two posts and I just went ahead and posted it
I still don't see why it doesn't make sense and contradicts each other.
"I saw the wagon after I pressed post and it showed the first two posts and I just went ahead and posted it" and "i didnt know i was hopping on a wagon" are indeed contradictory. Which one is the truth?-
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Which game is that, and why are you toning it down?In post 139, Sickofit1138 wrote:
Don't worry I'm toning it down from that game.In post 135, karnos wrote:
This really makes me want to vote you. Knowing how you play, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt a little longer. Call this aIn post 134, Sickofit1138 wrote:
If you are town, keep the fuck out of my way and help me scum hunt. If you are scum, keep following my scum filled wagon and expose yourself all the more.FOS-
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OK. Considering that and a scum game of yours, my thought was that if town you'd be overly defensive and OMGUSsy. Through 125 you read to your scum meta. 126 and 130 were more townie, but still not strong. 134 and 139 make sense.In post 145, Sickofit1138 wrote:You know.
UNVOTE:-
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Is it all of them on the wagon, or just one?*In post 141, ShadyHood wrote:All I see here is a scumteam(all of them)trying to take advantage of someone's minor mistake and making it look like a big commotion.
Look at Sick's wagon, there is certainly one scum hopping on that ride.
NSS, you have to go on weak reasons at the beginning of the game.*My best scumreads are everyone from that wagon, with Persivul and Saru being my strongest reads.
The wagon is driven by a reason that Sick contradicted himself. It doesn't look right when the town voted up someone for such a merely weak reason.
* The above are rhetorical. It's doubtful 14-yo newbie scum is going to come in this aggressively. Shady is likely town.Join me with this one, the rest of you all willing to get a good win,VOTE: Persivul-
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Why?In post 140, Sickofit1138 wrote:I like where karnos is at in this game. Null-town.-
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I have a pitch: get over yourself. You're not helping town by forcing yourself to be the center of attention. You should know that.In post 152, Sickofit1138 wrote:I have a pitch.
We lynch persivul today: here's why:
If I am lynche today and flip town, persivul can weasel his way ou of a lynch tomorrow.
If Percy is lynche today and flips town, I won't be able to work my way out of tomorrows lynch.
I think everyone is picking a side in this argument, I think we will all agree this is not a TvT.-
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Yes, trying to force a 1v1 early on D1 hurts town.In post 162, Chumba wrote: he's not hurting town either though.
People push to sort. For me, the issue wasn't his contradiction, it was how he would react to it. But, I couldn't say that at the time, as it would affect his reaction.If anyone is hurting town atm it's the people who is making a mountain out of a molehill.
did you address your own contradiction yet? I haven't seen it if you did.-
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As you note, it's a meta read based on my experience with him and a review of a completed scum game of his. It probably is meh to you. Unless you begin to push him, I don't have need to support it further.In post 163, Chumba wrote:I am also confused how you did a 180 on sick, your reasoning doesn't really make sense to me and using meta and what i assume is an ongoing game are both kind of meh.-
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Incorrect. A handful of posts matching meta from a single scum game is enough to create suspicion, but not a full scum read.In post 169, Chumba wrote:post 150 actually kind of supports my non belief actually. The fact that you say his posts up until post 125 match his scum meta means that up until that post you were honestly scum reading him.
Your RVS vote.still not changing my vote off kappy
Does it concern you that I'm voting Kappy now?but I fully support a persivul lynch atm-
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Are you denying that people push null reads in order to sort them? If not, do you have meta on me to support your inference?In post 173, Chumba wrote:no that post plus your push on him clearly implies to me you were scum reading.-
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She's right - inactivity is NAI absent meta to that effect. He also curtailed activity in another, later stage game. I doubt he's skipping out on that game because he's scum who's afraid to make a D1 post here. You get lurkers through associatives, investigatives, or vigs. Lynching one D1 gives no information and is a waste. Voting them is a lazy excuse for scum hunting.In post 180, karnos wrote:I fucking called it. Exactly what I feared, happened- see bolded text above for emphasis. And your original response? "Lurking is NAI unless you have meta blah blah". I told you from the first response that I wasn't merely concerned with lurkers, I was also concerned with a lurker who posts the absolute minimum post and then goes back to lurking.-
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OK, I checked Newbie 1692. I didn't see you pressuring lurkers. On the contrary, a lot of your talk was about keeping pressure on someone who was at L-2.In post 184, karnos wrote:I tend to distrust hiding players in every game, feel free to look at my game history.-
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What exactly did you look for?In post 192, Kappy wrote:Looked it up myself. it's true!-
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Fair enough.In post 198, karnos wrote: Yes, and as town...
1700 In my (brief) experience playing here, I've noticed scum are often the quiet players who post the minimum amount to keep suspicion off, without trying to draw attention to themselves.
1692 Of course, I also find the quietest players are often that because they are mafia trying to keep a low profile, and the annoying talky players are sometimes just poorly playing townies, so you may yet be innocent.
It's part of my general thought process every game.
Also, FYI, 638 was multiball. While I was scum, I was also scum hunting to kill the other scum team.
Kappy is a good vote right now. Would like to see a VC.I see kappy is sensing weakness and pouncing. I'm feeling better about re-voting him.-
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I believe it's that I said that town is more likely to be sloppy than scum, and I was pressing him on a contradiction which he claims was just sloppiness.In post 211, MechaGoomba wrote:Sick, would you mind saying exactly what Persy's contradiction is? I don't see anything of the sort in his ISO, and you don't seem to have said anything about it. The only thing like a contradiction is that he missed Kappy changing his vote, and, um, that is entirely NAI.-
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http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=66642
This game is now abandoned and can be cited. Check sick's play. He was town, but when pressured was very defensive and OMGUSsy. He even self-hammered as town. Compare that to this game where he was scum:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=66158
In that one he kept his cool except for a single post.
In this game he's in between those two. It reads to me closer to the first, and he said unprompted by me that he was toning down his style. So, I have him as town for now.-
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LAMIST
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First, I have 44 posts, you have 15 - and you want more out ofIn post 256, Saru wrote: This is not LAMIST because as I've stated previously, I wanted to see more out of you.me?
Second, pressure tends to get information out of people. So, you urging caution rather than an L-1 is indeed LAMIST, and goes against your stated desire of getting more out of me.
I addressed it some time ago:Perhaps an answer to Sick about your contradiction, which you have yet to answer about.In post 165, Persivul wrote:
Yes, trying to force a 1v1 early on D1 hurts town.In post 162, Chumba wrote: he's not hurting town either though.
People push to sort. For me, the issue wasn't his contradiction, it was how he would react to it. But, I couldn't say that at the time, as it would affect his reaction.If anyone is hurting town atm it's the people who is making a mountain out of a molehill.
did you address your own contradiction yet? I haven't seen it if you did.-
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Why? A quickhammer would likely give valuable information.In post 257, Saru wrote:Also, if you were put at L-1, I would unvote you until you did defend yourself.-
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Kappy ISO:In post 258, qubixes wrote:@Persivul: What is your read on kappy now?
I reread kappy's ISO before he made his big post, and I think it is actually more likely to be coming from town. Mostly based on tone and some points he makes that make me think he is genuinely scumhunting.
I'll look through my list of suspects tonight (or weekend).
First 14 posts are just screwing around and prolonging RVS
65 - theory
103 - "No strong reads atm," but gives a bare reads list anyway. Scum have incentive to do this because lists are generally seen as towny. As scum I've advised buddies who were in trouble to just put up a reads list, and it frequently works.
181 - reads list with some reasoning. Only thing slightly controversial was putting me in town. Most people are in null. Two scum reads are safe: several people were suspicious of sick, species wasn't very active.
192 - "Looked it up myself. it's true!" and sheeping on karnos is bad. I asked him what he had looked up, and he said he had just verified the one quote I gave. If he were really scum hunting he should have checked several games, searching for variants of lurk and hide. Chumba did just that, saying in 204 "I was searching for lurking and hiding in his iso." Chumba's slot went up a notch for that.
201 - unwillingness to change read after karnos makes a good response
235 and 236 - still trying to push me v. sick when, from my POV at least, that's over.
Also, a number of people have expressed an opinion on him, so the flip would be informative.
So, how do you come up with a town read?-
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Same to you - what exactly is my contradiction, and what specific question(s) are you asking?In post 210, Sickofit1138 wrote:
Oh my god thank you.In post 162, Chumba wrote:
he's not hurting town either though. If anyone is hurting town atm it's the people who is making a mountain out of a molehill.In post 160, Persivul wrote:You're not helping town by forcing yourself to be the center of attention. You should know that.
did you address your own contradiction yet? I haven't seen it if you did.-
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Already answered - I was pushing him for a reaction, as I had recent experience with town!sick under pressure on D1. The contradiction itself wasn't a big deal.In post 267, Saru wrote:This. What do you make of your reasoning of "people tend to be more careful as scum than as town" being used by Sick to point out that through this line of reasoning, that would make him town in your eyes.
Yes, as he was protesting to an extent, but wasn't flipping out the way I'd seen him do as town. BUT, in 139 in a reply to karnos, he said he was "toning it down from that game." In 144-145 I confirmed it was the game I was using as his town meta, so the less strident response made sense, and I unvoted him.And while I understand you switched your vote off Sick and made him a townread, it was way after that post. During that post, you still were voting for him and pushing him on his posts.
A potential slip? WTF, look to motivations, not potential slips. In 150 I said his reaction matched his town meta and unvoted him. In 151 I acknowledged that sick's contradiction was a weak reason to push, and noted that early on D1 weal reasons are all you have. THe town motivations for my course of action is evident. What is the scum motivation?Just to clarify, its not the contradiction that bothers me so much. It's your reaction to my(and others) asking about it when it first came up. The fact that you repeatedly ignored those questions seemed as if you were dodging a potential slip.Why did I go out of my way to clear a person who I know to be an easy D1 mislynch target? Look to our last game together - he was a total VI, to the point of self hammering.
Yes, I tend to be aloof regarding questions that shouldn't be asked because the answer is already evident. IOW, I tend to play for the benefit of the good players, and only take the time to defend against bad reasoning when really necessary, as now.Like I said, I did the same exact thing with Sick, and he had absolutely no problem with clarifying the confusion on his wagon contradiction. You and I both were on Sick in the start to get a reaction out of him, and then base our reads off of that. We both pretty much townread him. In that same sense, I was on you to get a reaction out of you, and the one I got(or lack of) was disturbing, to say the least. You could just be horribly aloof, but it would have to be extremely aloof for you to miss the question posed to you a million times by myself and others in the start.-
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Yes, obviously.In post 269, Saru wrote:
Let me ask, Persivul, is the bold part of Chumba's question being answered by the bold part in your post?In post 165, Persivul wrote:
Yes, trying to force a 1v1 early on D1 hurts town.In post 162, Chumba wrote: he's not hurting town either though.
People push to sort.If anyone is hurting town atm it's the people who is making a mountain out of a molehill.
did you address your own contradiction yet?I haven't seen it if you did.For me, the issue wasn't his contradiction, it was how he would react to it. But, I couldn't say that at the time, as it would affect his reaction.-
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No. You seem pretty black and white in your thinking. I bet other people can see that I considered it answered though.In post 272, Saru wrote:Do you seriously expect me to believe that you were answering the question?-
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So your answer is?In post 270, Persivul wrote:What is the scum motivation? Why did I go out of my way to clear a person who I know to be an easy D1 mislynch target? Look to our last game together - he was a total VI, to the point of self hammering.-
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Confirm? No. Move to the town side of null? Yes.In post 276, Saru wrote:Also, you say you clear Sick via town meta from a previous game.
In post 172, you say "A handful of posts matching meta from a single scum game is enough to create suspicion, but not a full scum read."
So then would you agree that a handful of posts matching town meta from a single game is not enough to confirm someone as town?
What's scum!pers's motivation for moving an easy mislynch target to his town group?-
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Reads evolve over time. I go with my most recent read. I don't average my reads over time to get my current read. Frankly that seems pretty stupid, and I'm surprised you advocate it.In post 280, Saru wrote: Ok so then, if both lead to a null version of their respected alignment, that means for you Sick should be a null read and not a nulltown read as you said that he played to his scum meta in the start and then his town meta later on. Wouldn't the two cancel each other out in your eyes, leading to a simple null read? This isn't an accusation by the way, just curious as to your viewpoint.
Do you employ it yourself? You agree that my push on sick was townie. You find my lack of responsiveness to the question on the contradiction scummy. So, I should be a null read for you. Yet, you're voting me. Do you always vote your null reads?
That's why I keep asking - because you haven't already answered.And don't know why you keep asking me that second question as I haven't already answered.
Oh fuck, you slipped!I've already told you that there is no scum motivation.-
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Yep.In post 289, karnos wrote:I find this a bit weird to me. You knew how he played in 640, and in 640 he got pushed hard and even eventually self-voted before flipping town. So in this game, you pushed him right from the start, as sort of a reaction test...
Nope. Just because someone freaks out and self votes doesn't mean you never push them again. That's reinforcing the freak out. Plus, if it's going to happen, better now than in lylo.but you knew how well that "test" worked in 640, what were you really trying to do? Give him enough rope to hang himself again?
Yes, I thought if he were scum he'd be better able to keep his cool, as in the linked game. As I said, his reaction came in somewhere between the two, but his explanation that he's consciously trying to stay cool as town seemed reasonable.Were you thinking that if he was scum you would get a completely different reaction?
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