Mini 1800 - Game Over

[MathBlade]

NK analysis is a very useful tool for finding scum and to brush it off like that is ridiculous and scummy.

So if Karnos is scum, why are you still alive?

Because of site meta no one will listen to me so I am handicapped and have to X - 1 scum where X is the number of scum in the game.

[Masquerade]

Mathblade, I want you to go over my posts and explain to me every single point I made in Karnos' defense how that was based on site meta.

[MathBlade]

Have to hunt*

@Mod

I need to go on V/LA for a week because I'm co-modding this game and coming week it's all me and it needs 2 extensive updates a day. If this is an issue, replace me.

@Mathblade: Read my posts again. We are disagreeing. I will not give you the satisfaction of changing my opinion because you give yourself brain damage from hitting your head into walls. All the points you keep bringing up about Karnos I have already refuted. Stop it. WE ARE NOT LYNCHING KARNOS.

:/ *dies a little inside*

Damn it. This is a repeat of day fucking one all over again.

You were responsible for the clusterfuck at the end of day one. You and Quibixes with that weird vote shit. I figure if we can't lynch obvious scum who isn't even giving goddamn reads I might as well start poking the beasts defending those reads, that started what was clearly a counter wagon, had a really bad hammer, and by their own admission can't keep their story straight.

Masquerade may be bussing Quibixes. When they were "pressuring" me they repeated the same damn point 10 (not an exact count) times. Here it looks like they are actually putting in a god damn effort. Furthermore you haven't refuted my points, you have dismissed them. How about instead of saying we are not lynching Karnos explain why someone who just OMGUS's me and doesn't post reads, mason hunts, PR hunts, votes town reads, is contradictory the shit out of day one doesn't lie.

Look at how little Masquerade and Quibixes interact D1. It is like they don't have to figure out each other.

Spiritual vote Masquerade

Spiritual vote Quibixes

^^This is where I would look besides Karnos but I want someone besides a scumread to say we aren't going there.

[MathBlade]

Mathblade, I want you to go over my posts and explain to me every single point I made in Karnos' defense how that was based on site meta.

Fine.

[MathBlade]

What is your stance on this? Do you believe Karnos as scum would have thought to do this the same way? Do you believe Karnos would have gotten paranoid feelings from Pers flipping scum if he knew in this game what alignment he has (if Karnos is scum he knows Pers' alignment, unless this is multiball or we have a SK, but the single kill points to singleball rn)

What does this have to do with Persivul alignment? You suggesting multiball of Pers flipping different team? Huh?

If Karnos is scum, he knows whether Pers is town or scum, no? Unless this is multiball or if there is a SK. So there was no reason for Karnos as scum to be paranoid of Persivul. You answered the question anyway:

I don't know if he would or wouldn't, all I could do is put myself in his shoes and say what I would do, and its likely not claim a PR unless my ass was really on the line. My first thoughts wouldn't be Neopolitian cause I have seen town get lynched with that claim and I don't think its even a good role. I can't say what Kranos would do though cause I don't know how he operates as far as play style. His posts seem simplistic in style and in tone. Maybe its a facade but he doesn't seem like some master planner, unless his hypothetical teammates are, even so its some weird lies.

Meh, I don't think mathblade is on the target with it. I can tell by logic used by math its forced and its just self serving the bias had before with a previous read.
I would like to hear more about it, but that's my thoughts so far without doing ISO of Kranos.

I don't take Karnos as a master planner either, I don't think Karnos would have come up with using his other game that just ended like that if he didn't feel real paranoia. But I also don't see him as a bad player. Only experience I have with him is a multiball where we were on opposing scumteams. My buddy was lynched D1, I killed Karnos' buddy N1, town lynched me D2, and then I think they lynched Karnos D4. So I wouldn't call him a bad player, but I don't think he'll be making very complex plans.

Don't take Karnos to be a master planner. Okay that is a read. However this point is fundamentally flawed as Karnos wouldn't have to be. Scum have daychat as was pointed out in the thread. So this point is a non point. Unless you are arguing that scum are ignoring daychat.

[MathBlade]

How about you make your own reads instead of depending on others?

This account isn't made to do work.
I have karnos at null because all thats literally happened with him so far is talk about actions (at least today i think).

Yeah no I misinterpreted your post I think. I like you're being sort of critical and I think you're town rn.
The reason I'm townreading Karnos, and defended him yesterday, is because everything he explained checked out.
Karnos was townreading Persivul, then Pers flipped scum in another game, at which point Karnos got paranoid and voted Pers (and was awkward with explaining that calling it a fake vote) and I checked that other game and the timing checks out. And you of all people should understand, because you have been paranoid about me in the past after you townread me when I was scum.
What is your stance on this? Do you believe Karnos as scum would have thought to do this the same way? Do you believe Karnos would have gotten paranoid feelings from Pers flipping scum if he knew in this game what alignment he has (if Karnos is scum he knows Pers' alignment, unless this is multiball or we have a SK, but the single kill points to singleball rn)

"Everything checks out" is site meta. The Persuvial day one bullshit was nothing more than scum lying. You are literally warping what Karnos did to fit town rather than what they actually did. Everything checks out is "I am too lazy to analyze so are the obviously lying" if not move on.

[MathBlade]

That is what you did there and it is lazy.

[MathBlade]

Actually, I want to

VOTE: Magna

If Wingback was a threat to anyone, it was Magna.

Off topic -- What happened to this huh? Ever gonna fucking explain? I can understand misplaced shade on me based on Wingback's post but where do you get Magna?

[MathBlade]

I investigated persivul. No result. Either I got roleblocked, or persivul got jailed.

Mathblade, if Karnos was scum he would have talked about his result with his buddies. There are more reasons for Karnos' action to fail, yet he can only come up with 2 of the most common roles that mess with investigation. If Karnos had talked to scumbuddies, I'm sure more option would have come up, like commuter or hider or roles like that. But he didn't mention them. It also makes a lot of sense to me that Karnos picked Persivul to investigate.
And that's why I still think Karnos is town.

Johnny wasn't a townread. I just didn't believe he was scum. If Johnny was an actual townread, I would have tried harder to stop the lynch. Ffs just read my goddamn posts from when I first voted him to where I finally hammered him.
I wanted a flip. I was selfish. I assumed we would have a frantic last hour where we had to hastily put a wagon together. I have meta but sadly it's an ongoing game so I can't explain rn. Hopefully soon.

I already said I think Wingback was killed because scum want Karnos misslynched.

You contradict yourself here in your posts. One of your arguments is that Karnos is not a master planner. Yet here if he talked with his scum buddies that would make him able to talk with them and find out what is most probable. Your own argument defeats itself. It is literally nauseating to try to figure it out.

And with that I believe I am fucking done because everything else to me is site meta.

[qubixes]

@Mathblade:

I don't see your point about my interactions with Masquerade. We interacted pretty often actually D1? What was weird about my vote/unvote? And, I'm never defending Karnos either. Actually, I'd be down for a lynch, but it doesn't seem to be happening. And I wasn't pressuring you? Kind of confused with your "spritual vote".

[Persivul]

This is a prime example of why "because we always do it is bad". Scum adjust and learn to those tactics. For example I am willing to bet we are going to start seeing a major shift of doomed as fuck scum on the site claim some kind of investigative and role blocked because of "site meta".

Where I came from on DLP you had the person claim to see if the claim matched the specific style of scumminess they were called out for. If it didn't you lynched them.

If they were town and didn't live up to what town wanted too bad. And the scary thing is most of the time on DLP they were right.

So you're saying that at DLP there was a site meta, but scum did NOT adjust to that meta (i.e. they could have learned which claims matched which styles of scumminess and made those claims). Yet, here, you assume - against your prior experience - that scum DO adjust to site meta.

On the contrary. What I am saying is that at DLP analysis was more important than information. Scum did and would change meta constantly. Just there wasn't a "guideline" as to what was townie. You either were or weren't. I am saying on DLP you were forced to be townie regardless of your role claim.

No, that's not what you said.

If it's as you now say - "on DLP you were forced to be townie regardless of your role claim" - then what was the purpose of claiming?

[Persivul]

Omg standard scum play *cries* Just stawp.

What's your objection? It's standard because it makes perfect logical sense. Are you telling me that if you were scum and had a RB, you wouldn't block a claimed investigative? Why not?

Depended on the situation about the tunnel. On DLP because I was breaking into a new site you have to tunnel to get any sort of credibility in the game or when you flip.

So site meta there is that tunneling is townie. Why then couldn't scum just tunnel? And when they adjusted, why was that still the site meta?

Here, even if I don't get traction I can hopefully at least explain why *standard scum play* is so damn stupid.

So far you've failed at that.

The question should be why would a team of your scum reads roleblock, if one exists?

Not sure what you mean by "a team of your scum reads," but scum would block a neapolitan because they don't want it creating conftowns.

[Persivul]

NK analysis is a very useful tool for finding scum and to brush it off like that is ridiculous and scummy.

So if Karnos is scum, why are you still alive?

Because of site meta no one will listen to me so I am handicapped and have to X - 1 scum where X is the number of scum in the game.

If you know that no one will listen to you re: karnos, why are you tunneling him?

[Masquerade]

"Everything checks out" is site meta. The Persuvial day one bullshit was nothing more than scum lying. You are literally warping what Karnos did to fit town rather than what they actually did. Everything checks out is "I am too lazy to analyze so are the obviously lying" if not move on.

No it isn't. Karnos said Pers flipped. I checked. There was an hour between Pers flipping and Karnos voting him. So that checks out. It has nothing to do with 'site meta' and everything to do with 'unbiased evidence available as public information on site'.

[Masquerade]

Have to hunt*

@Mod

I need to go on V/LA for a week because I'm co-modding this game and coming week it's all me and it needs 2 extensive updates a day. If this is an issue, replace me.

@Mathblade: Read my posts again. We are disagreeing. I will not give you the satisfaction of changing my opinion because you give yourself brain damage from hitting your head into walls. All the points you keep bringing up about Karnos I have already refuted. Stop it. WE ARE NOT LYNCHING KARNOS.

:/ *dies a little inside*

Damn it. This is a repeat of day fucking one all over again.

You were responsible for the clusterfuck at the end of day one. You and Quibixes with that weird vote shit. I figure if we can't lynch obvious scum who isn't even giving goddamn reads I might as well start poking the beasts defending those reads, that started what was clearly a counter wagon, had a really bad hammer, and by their own admission can't keep their story straight.

Masquerade may be bussing Quibixes. When they were "pressuring" me they repeated the same damn point 10 (not an exact count) times. Here it looks like they are actually putting in a god damn effort. Furthermore you haven't refuted my points, you have dismissed them. How about instead of saying we are not lynching Karnos explain why someone who just OMGUS's me and doesn't post reads, mason hunts, PR hunts, votes town reads, is contradictory the shit out of day one doesn't lie.

Look at how little Masquerade and Quibixes interact D1. It is like they don't have to figure out each other.

Spiritual vote Masquerade

Spiritual vote Quibixes

^^This is where I would look besides Karnos but I want someone besides a scumread to say we aren't going there.

Isn;t it enough that nobody is sheeping you on Karnos?

[Masquerade]

What is your stance on this? Do you believe Karnos as scum would have thought to do this the same way? Do you believe Karnos would have gotten paranoid feelings from Pers flipping scum if he knew in this game what alignment he has (if Karnos is scum he knows Pers' alignment, unless this is multiball or we have a SK, but the single kill points to singleball rn)

What does this have to do with Persivul alignment? You suggesting multiball of Pers flipping different team? Huh?

If Karnos is scum, he knows whether Pers is town or scum, no? Unless this is multiball or if there is a SK. So there was no reason for Karnos as scum to be paranoid of Persivul. You answered the question anyway:

I don't know if he would or wouldn't, all I could do is put myself in his shoes and say what I would do, and its likely not claim a PR unless my ass was really on the line. My first thoughts wouldn't be Neopolitian cause I have seen town get lynched with that claim and I don't think its even a good role. I can't say what Kranos would do though cause I don't know how he operates as far as play style. His posts seem simplistic in style and in tone. Maybe its a facade but he doesn't seem like some master planner, unless his hypothetical teammates are, even so its some weird lies.

Meh, I don't think mathblade is on the target with it. I can tell by logic used by math its forced and its just self serving the bias had before with a previous read.
I would like to hear more about it, but that's my thoughts so far without doing ISO of Kranos.

I don't take Karnos as a master planner either, I don't think Karnos would have come up with using his other game that just ended like that if he didn't feel real paranoia. But I also don't see him as a bad player. Only experience I have with him is a multiball where we were on opposing scumteams. My buddy was lynched D1, I killed Karnos' buddy N1, town lynched me D2, and then I think they lynched Karnos D4. So I wouldn't call him a bad player, but I don't think he'll be making very complex plans.

Don't take Karnos to be a master planner. Okay that is a read. However this point is fundamentally flawed as Karnos wouldn't have to be. Scum have daychat as was pointed out in the thread. So this point is a non point. Unless you are arguing that scum are ignoring daychat.

No he would not. Do you think before every post Karnos makes he's going to have a chat with his buddies first?

[Masquerade]

That is what you did there and it is lazy.

I never said I wasn't lazy. Is that alignment indicative?

[Masquerade]

Actually, I want to

VOTE: Magna

If Wingback was a threat to anyone, it was Magna.

Off topic -- What happened to this huh? Ever gonna fucking explain? I can understand misplaced shade on me based on Wingback's post but where do you get Magna?

Why, thanks for asking! Wingbacks iso. Check it.

[Persivul]

You contradict yourself here in your posts. One of your arguments is that Karnos is not a master planner. Yet here if he talked with his scum buddies that would make him able to talk with them and find out what is most probable. Your own argument defeats itself. It is literally nauseating to try to figure it out.

I think his point is that town!karnos wouldn't have scum buddies to talk to...

And with that I believe I am fucking done because everything else to me is site meta.

Why don't you just STFU about site meta? Do you really think that you're going to come on here and change all the accepted ways of doing things? Doesn't it make more sense for you to adapt your game to the site meta and quit fucking whining about it?

[MathBlade]

The purpose of claiming was a last fail safe. A last ditch effort to see if the scumminess seen matches the role claimed.For example if it was a lurker lynch or someone just dropping a vote on a person they would have to claim a cop or a tracker or something with an investigative role.

However if you were loud and tunnely and scum read and you didn't claim VT or BP then you got lynched.

The claim should support their play. That isn't site meta. That is analysis.

@Quibixes ---OMG dead horse. That has been beaten soooo many times. Moving off that Johnny wagon without supporting your own is bad. Misrep on the Karnos thing -- I said Masq defended Karnos. Masq was pressuring me but was really lazy d1. Now it seems like they care to put in actual effort. This feels like you are trying to go "noooo not bussing" These are not the droids you are looking for.

[Masquerade]

EBWORp

What is your stance on this? Do you believe Karnos as scum would have thought to do this the same way? Do you believe Karnos would have gotten paranoid feelings from Pers flipping scum if he knew in this game what alignment he has (if Karnos is scum he knows Pers' alignment, unless this is multiball or we have a SK, but the single kill points to singleball rn)

What does this have to do with Persivul alignment? You suggesting multiball of Pers flipping different team? Huh?

If Karnos is scum, he knows whether Pers is town or scum, no? Unless this is multiball or if there is a SK. So there was no reason for Karnos as scum to be paranoid of Persivul. You answered the question anyway:

I don't know if he would or wouldn't, all I could do is put myself in his shoes and say what I would do, and its likely not claim a PR unless my ass was really on the line. My first thoughts wouldn't be Neopolitian cause I have seen town get lynched with that claim and I don't think its even a good role. I can't say what Kranos would do though cause I don't know how he operates as far as play style. His posts seem simplistic in style and in tone. Maybe its a facade but he doesn't seem like some master planner, unless his hypothetical teammates are, even so its some weird lies.

Meh, I don't think mathblade is on the target with it. I can tell by logic used by math its forced and its just self serving the bias had before with a previous read.
I would like to hear more about it, but that's my thoughts so far without doing ISO of Kranos.

I don't take Karnos as a master planner either, I don't think Karnos would have come up with using his other game that just ended like that if he didn't feel real paranoia. But I also don't see him as a bad player. Only experience I have with him is a multiball where we were on opposing scumteams. My buddy was lynched D1, I killed Karnos' buddy N1, town lynched me D2, and then I think they lynched Karnos D4. So I wouldn't call him a bad player, but I don't think he'll be making very complex plans.

Don't take Karnos to be a master planner. Okay that is a read. However this point is fundamentally flawed as Karnos wouldn't have to be. Scum have daychat as was pointed out in the thread. So this point is a non point. Unless you are arguing that scum are ignoring daychat.

No he would not. Do you think before every post Karnos makes he's going to have a chat with his buddies first?

No he would not need to be a master planner.

[Persivul]

The purpose of claiming was a last fail safe. A last ditch effort to see if the scumminess seen matches the role claimed.For example if it was a lurker lynch or someone just dropping a vote on a person they would have to claim a cop or a tracker or something with an investigative role.

Why didn't lurker scum adapt and start claiming an investigative role to avoid lynch?

However if you were loud and tunnely and scum read and you didn't claim VT or BP then you got lynched.

Why didn't loud tunnely scum adapt and start claiming VT or BP to avoid lynch?

[MathBlade]

Actually, I want to

VOTE: Magna

If Wingback was a threat to anyone, it was Magna.

Off topic -- What happened to this huh? Ever gonna fucking explain? I can understand misplaced shade on me based on Wingback's post but where do you get Magna?

Why, thanks for asking! Wingbacks iso. Check it.

Or you can make words that form arguments instead of dropping a vote on someone for reasons I did not see in Wingback's ISO. This looks like an attempt to steer me onto my D1 Magna read instead of believing it.

[Masquerade]

The purpose of claiming was a last fail safe. A last ditch effort to see if the scumminess seen matches the role claimed.For example if it was a lurker lynch or someone just dropping a vote on a person they would have to claim a cop or a tracker or something with an investigative role.

Why didn't lurker scum adapt and start claiming an investigative role to avoid lynch?

However if you were loud and tunnely and scum read and you didn't claim VT or BP then you got lynched.

Why didn't loud tunnely scum adapt and start claiming VT or BP to avoid lynch?

About this.. Mathblade, what if a player has a general scummy playstyle?

[MathBlade]

The purpose of claiming was a last fail safe. A last ditch effort to see if the scumminess seen matches the role claimed.For example if it was a lurker lynch or someone just dropping a vote on a person they would have to claim a cop or a tracker or something with an investigative role.

Why didn't lurker scum adapt and start claiming an investigative role to avoid lynch?

However if you were loud and tunnely and scum read and you didn't claim VT or BP then you got lynched.

Why didn't loud tunnely scum adapt and start claiming VT or BP to avoid lynch?

Because it required a certain "hootspah" that could not be faked. You would have to know it to see it. DLP is deadly.

/sigh

But in terms of logic that is site meta but it is not because I can't explain without giving games no one will read due to their length. I can't even get people to read one damn post.

Fuck it. I am going to work. Clearing my head. Maybe a reread is in order because maybe I am a stubborn asshole.