Mini 1800 - Game Over

[Chumba]

People don't generally get that invested in devil's-advocate arguments.

Not really sure how you can say I was "that invested"when all I did was provide an opinion.

[species]

Also keeping an eye on whoever is genuinely questioning/voting Kappy for the RVS self-vote

Thats a weird thing to do. It's not suspicious for a player to vote another player for doing something scummy.

I agree that self-voting is scummy in theory, but in reality I don't find it a big scumtell when people do it in RVS. However when other players are eager to call them out on it and focus on something small like that, it's a pretty big scumtell in my experience.

[Chumba]

And is that based on experience?

[Kappy]

{}
{Goomba, Snork}
{Persivul, Mizzy, qubixes, karnos, species}
{Chumba, Sickofit} - Sick was originally strong scum read, but once explained himself it made sense.
{}
No strong reads atm. Most ppl are in null because they haven't posted much, or, in Persivul's case, just posted many short posts.

[species]

in my experience.

yep ^^

[Chumba]

Something you can link?

[MechaGoomba]

Links are only really useful if you're invoking meta on a specific player. For general tells, you have every single game on the site to pick from, so you could cherry-pick links to prove almost anything.

[Chumba]

Thanks for your opinion however I'd still like to see at least one game that supports his opinion.

[Sickofit1138]

At least my explanation am sense to one person.

You guys better start fishing for better scum because ou have your rod in the wrong fishing hole.

[Kappy]

you have your rod in the wrong hole.

That's what she didn't say.

[Sickofit1138]

[Saru]

Hey all, sorry for jumping in late. Just read through the 5 pages and gonna list my tells from that:
{Chumba, Mizzytastic}
{Persivul, Snork}
{Everyone else}
{Kappy, MechaGoomba}
{Sickofit1138}
Basically, like that Chumba and Mizzytastic are asking questions(that don't sound like busy-work) and are just generally doing some good scumhunting. Especially like the banter between Chumba and MechaGoomba that help form my nullscum read of him(more on that in a sec).

I like that Persivul pointed out the contradiction between Sick's posts about the whole wagon issue with Kappy. Seemed like a slip that was nicely picked up on. Also, love the point that Snork made about Mecha's questions toward Chumba looking like busy-work more than anything.

Null reads are just people who didn't post enough yet or nothing in their posts does anything to sway my opinion of them one way or the other.

I don't like Kappy's posts at all. They don't ring scum all the way, but they also don't contain any real substance and just seem to distract from the matters at hand, very anti-town style. As for the whole self-voting thing, I looked at it as simply RVS and don't see much more behind it. As for Mecha, his argument with Chumba(as stated before) made him look pretty weak in my eyes. Almost all of his counters were BS and effectively countered by Chumba or others, and especially his statement about devil's advocate arguments not being invested in, which horribly misses the very point of devil's advocate. Devil's advocate simply brings up something to think about, from which more ideas can then be fleshed out of, which can then be acted upon accordingly(i.e. Forming tells, votes, etc.) The initial argument in a devil's advocate doesn't need to be invested in simply because investment suggests that the (initial) argument was put forward to be acted upon, which isn't the case. Meant for expansion more than anything.

As for Sick, didn't like his responses to Persivul about his contradiction. He's either not reading the latter half of Persivul's argument, or is ignoring it on purpose. Either way, no good. Don't like the slip and don't like the arguments(or lack thereof) used to conceal it.

With all that being said:
VOTE: Sickofit1138

[karnos]

In all seriousness, I don't see a good target for a serious vote yet. I don't think kappy is in danger of being quick-lynched, but I don't want to be implicated if it does somehow happen while I am away.

Your worry is about being implicated, and not the (highly unlikely) quicklynch itself?

I don't like kappy but it could just be playstyle silliness. This sounds like scum thinking.

It bothers me that this post got buried so easily, because it's 100% truth.
VOTE: karnos

I caught up with the thread a bit late, made an RVS vote, reviewed the thread and decided Kappy was acting weird enough that I wanted to vote him. I almost immediately realized that persivul had just called out sickofit for wagoning kappy, and I also knew since it was my wife's birthday I wouldn't be able to post for the rest of the day, I figured unvoting would be safer than leaving with such a controversial post.

And I phrased it as I did because I wouldn't be worried about a quick lynch that did indeed flip a scum Kappy, but I didn't want to be implicated if I was wrong and he was an innocent townie. Being only a few hours into the first day I wasn't ready to stake everything on one read.

[ShadyHood]

I don't think scum players are that careless to contradict themselves, I also can't imagine town doing it on purpose, added with the fact that Sickofit1138 is likely a new player concerning his join date. There is not enough reason to hang his neck, let's not shoot first and ask questions later.

Spoiler: Remember the first time you played as scum?

I was as careful as someone crossing a narrow bridge over a lava pit.

Sick's wagon consists of 5 players:
qubixes, Persivul, Snork, species, Saru
Of which one of the five has an excellent chance to be scum.

[karnos]

Is playing without an avatar a scum tell?

[ShadyHood]

Bitch I just got a new avatar now, how do I look?

[Persivul]

Of which one of the five has an excellent chance to be scum.

In a 13 player game, 3, or 23%, are usually scum. Early in D1 you can draw any five names and say one of them is probably scum. In other words, that was a really safe and meaningless observation.

[karnos]

After a full review of the thread, I've gotta re-vote my RVS target:

VOTE: Dierfire

Stop hiding.

If I posted my reads list, it would just be pretty damn similar to everyone else. I think it's obvious chumba is acting extremely pro-town, sickofit and kappy acting a little silly and scummy, and just about everyone else falls in between. Hard to have a strong read on anyone at this point in the game. I'd like to at least see a couple posts from every player by now, the game has been up for almost 24 hours right?

[karnos]

I was thinking that too, but this is my first normal game so I didn't want to make assumptions.

Bitch I just got a new avatar now, how do I look?

It's like Jesse Pinkman playing robin hood.

[species]

Bitch I just got a new avatar now, how do I look?

pretty af

[ShadyHood]

Of which one of the five has an excellent chance to be scum.

In a 13 player game, 3, or 23%, are usually scum. Early in D1 you can draw any five names and say one of them is probably scum. In other words, that was a really safe and meaningless observation.

Yet your response to my post is ironically the meaningless observation, I brought up a subject that one of the five can be scum, then you try to shut the topic down with a lack of town-motivated reason, which of our post's is more meaningful? Don't be a distraction if you want to live long, whether you're town or scum.

[species]

Something you can link?

I was looking through random newbie threads to see if I could find an example of this since tbf I didn't have a specific game in mind, and the first one I found with a scenario like this actually proved the opposite lmao

I still feel like it's true as a general rule though, scumtells like that that are a little oversimplified (or just generally agreed upon) are easy to jump on as scum, they don't feel like real scumhunting.

[Persivul]

Yet your response to my post is ironically the meaningless observation,

Incorrect. Scum like to make observations which kinda sorta sound like scum hunting but are actually safe and don't rock other people's reads too much. That's what you did. Me pointing that out is scum hunting.

I brought up a subject that one of the five can be scum, then you try to shut the topic down with a lack of town-motivated reason, which of our post's is more meaningful?

Mine is more meaningful by far. I pointed the finger at one person - you. You pointed at five people, said one might be scum, and made no attempt to sort them further. You didn't even beat random odds.

If you had said something like,

One of the wagon A,B,C,D,E is probably scum. I'm town reading A & D, so that means one of B,C,E,

that would have at least narrowed things down to less than random odds, and would have been somewhat meaningful.

[Mizzytastic]

Thank you karnos for reinforcing my read on you.

I don't like your vote. They'll either turn up or get replaced. Voting someone before they've turned up always just feels like a safe play for scum. Also you say kappy and sickofit are acting a little silly and

scummy

. Why vote for someone who hasn't turned up (which is pressure doing nothing, cos they haven't turned up) over someone you think has done scummy stuff?

I don't know, is not having an avatar a scumtell? More importantly, why do you ask? Cos it sounds like you want to call it a scum tell but want to know someone else will follow you first.

What was controversial about your post? You were voting on a viable wagon early game. To me that just sounds like playing the game. I don't get your reasoning. You seem really oversensitive to the fact that it might implicate you. You were voting it to what, L-3? If a quicklynch happened in that time why would your vote be the one that looked really bad? Mislynches happen, mislynches day 1 especially. It's not nice, but it's true. You have to accept that and take the plunge anyway. I don't get why not being implicated in a potential but very unlikely mislynch (unlikely cos of the quicklynch required) is playing to a town win con over putting pressure on someone you think is scummy.

Guys, you are accusing of Kappy of trying to look town in RVS, why aren't we on this too?

[Sickofit1138]

Actually Percivuls general misunderstanding and not reading the thread spells s-c-u-m-m-y to me at least

You have that backwards. People tend to be more careful as scum than as town.

I just picked up on this.
Persivul according to this reasoning I would be town.

Uou are only using abject ice tells when they suit your case.
You reasoning is not solid and therefore you are my biggest scum read.