Mini Normal 1609: The Case Of Doctor Pepper (Game Over)

[Anatole Kuragin]

sup nerds

[Anatole Kuragin]

VOTE: BlueBloodedToffee

Why do you need to quote to us your discussion of who to night kill?

[Anatole Kuragin]

Having at least one scum in a neighborhood has been the situation in every single game I have played with neighbors.

[Anatole Kuragin]

It is masons except they don't know eachother's alignment.

[Anatole Kuragin]

But in my experience, there is at least one scum in real life neighborhoods as well.

[Anatole Kuragin]

uh like 3

[Anatole Kuragin]

I'm unnerved by your tone, Anatole Kuragin.

“Those who dream by day are cognizant of many things which escape those who dream only by night.”

[Anatole Kuragin]

“Stupidity is a talent for misconception.”

[Anatole Kuragin]

Questions for anyone:

What advantage do town gain by outing the neighbourhood on P1?

Why wouldn't TTH wait and try to develop her read on me if she was town as opposed to outing?

Are you guys sure you're the only members of the neighborhood?

[Anatole Kuragin]

Well, that's odd. Someone I don't who doesn't know me says I'm a divisive player, while completely ignoring my posts. Unsure if that account is simply trolling. Do you reckon it's scummy for a slot to ignore your posts while trying to discredit you? That doesn't sound right.

Kinda dickish, but you do have a reputation. All I know is you're a good mod.

We should be focusing on the game at hand though, not meta/reputation/etc.

[Anatole Kuragin]

UNVOTE: blue[/vote]

[Anatole Kuragin]

uhhh

UNVOTE: blue

[Anatole Kuragin]

It's pretty null - I could see either alignment outing the neighborhood for different reasons. Probably more useful for scum if they're going for a quick lynch on their neighbor.

[Anatole Kuragin]

Anatole Kuragin I

(33) | (37) | (39) | (41) | (42) | (48) | (49) | (52) | (58) | (61) | (64) | (65) | (67)

What We Know

We know that AK has discussed Neighborhoods, and that in his experience Neighborhoods (at least one?) have had one Scum. He does raise a point by asking if there's more than two members in the supposed Neighborhood that has pregame chat. Also voted and unvoted BBT. Finally, he mentions he could see either alignment outing their Neighborhood for different reasons. ...he then posits that it's probably more useful for scum if they're going for a quick lynch on their neighbor.

How I Currently Read This

Not much has been said here. I do like his inquiry on how many Neighbors there are. Unsure the gameplay philosophy on alignment and the outing of one's Neighborhood. More often in my experience it's been Town that does so. Not always, but usually. I think his mention of Scum doing so because it's useful for them is more wrong than right, because Scum probably doesn't want even more attention brought to them. Eh, I don't know. I do know there's not much here to extract and analyze, though.

Where The Player Stands

Overall,

[Null]

. What are your thoughts on the other players here? Who's standing out most to you? Do you suspect the dual Neighbor claims with pregame chat are legit?

Spoiler: Rambler I

Rambler I

(4) | (17) | (46) | (47) | (50)

What We Know

Rambler asks TTH in (17) about what specifically about the pre-game chat made her distrust BBT. Also mentions TTH's vote looks like an RVS in that same post. He completely ignored(?) my question to him in (24). His (46) is worded a bit unclearly, so I don't want to misunderstand him there. He asks AK a fairly benign question about his experience of there typically being one Scum in each Neighborhood in (47).

How I Currently Read This

To analyze, you've got to break things down piece by piece and examine them. When Rambler asks TTH about what in the chat made her distrust BBT, that action feels like something a Townie would do. It's also reasonable for him to have felt her post looked like an RVS in that post: I had the same initial feeling, because I've never heard of Neighbors having pre-game chat. In fact, every game I've played in that had Neighbors never let you talk until Daystart. Talking before the game starts does sound like something Scum would have, though. So him sharing that sentiment strikes a chord. What I really find odd and disconcerting is Rambler completely ignoring my question directed towards him in (24). I never understood why there'd be presumably Town players who simply shrug off questions as if they're not even playing Mafia. If he's Town, he should engage instead of being a Dead Fish. Yeah, I'm coining that right here, right now. I don't fully understand his (46), and would like it if he clarified that part. His last part about the Neighborhoods feels rather mild; it doesn't compel me either way to trust or distrust him.

Where The Player Stands

Overall,

[Slightly Town]

. Engage more, don't be a Dead Fish, and ask more questions, please.

I'm ok with lynching one of BBT or TTH today. I'm not good at early scumreads - just early townreads. I'm working on that and don't have any so far.

[Anatole Kuragin]

Anatole

, what games have you played with neighbors? I find your analysis fascinating.

Sorry, I realized I can't really discuss this more.

[Anatole Kuragin]

Okay, so you want to be vigged.

The vig detector is now if Boonskiies dies overnight, if there's two kills and he doesn't we have a serial killer.

Who said you were town, boon?

You said that you would play in such a way that you would behave detrimentally to the town. The only reason to consciously do this is a meta game effort to make your scum play indistinguishable from your town play.

Not only is this against the spirit of this site (play to win the game you are in), it's a detestable, pathetic maneuver. You wish to be unable to read? Fine, I grant you your wish, a place on my blacklist , and copious bullets to pump into your corpse.

Vig, kill this useless piece of shit.

that's a clown post mate

I'm actually beginning to believe that Grey may be a serial killer. He keeps talking like he knows there is a killing role out there other than scum's factional kill. Him bringing up the vigilante constantly to kill someone regardless of alignment is odd to me. Granted, I understand how he could be annoyed by the fact I said I would hammer, but come on man. I said I was a village idiot, I'm just clowning around. It seems as if he is trying to set himself up for a vigilante claim later in the game, which is another reason he's so out to kill me specifically. I'm being targeted to seem like a vigilante will kill me in the night, when in actuality, a serial killer will be doing it, and then he'll be able to fake claim Vigilante and get away with it. On the flipside, the possibility of him being scum, and hoping for a second kill to potentially get a mislynch is also a possibility. Anywho, with the stuff I have to go on now, along with the toxicity, I like where my vote is going to be placed.

VOTE: GreyIce

[Anatole Kuragin]

As always, I messed up the quotes - Boonskies, "that's a clownpost mate"

[Anatole Kuragin]

The vig discussion is a little weird, but hunting for a serial killer when we have no idea if one exists or not based on those kind of remarks is a bit ridiculous.

[Anatole Kuragin]

Yo, Anatole, I'm calling bullshit

I went through your games. Your last game with a neighborhood had two town neighbors. Do you know what, Anatole? They were both town. Your last game with Neighbors, Anatole.

You know what? There's a very old philosophy. It goes

Lynch. All. Liars.

I find it nearly impossible to believe that you didn't even bother to do a quick double check as part of an actual sincere scumhunting effort (instead of piggybacking on the hate). And then you dodged my question, Anatole.

Lynch. All. Liars.

Vote: Anatole

You can lynch Boonskiies when I'm dead for a twofer, fyi.

You didn't read that game really well did you? That game had a neighborizer and the first person he neighborized was scum.

[Anatole Kuragin]

I don't see any rules about quoting QTs. The boilerplate rules linked in the rules post says not to quote PMs but that's it I think.

[Anatole Kuragin]

Yo, Anatole, I'm calling bullshit

I went through your games. Your last game with a neighborhood had two town neighbors. Do you know what, Anatole? They were both town. Your last game with Neighbors, Anatole.

You know what? There's a very old philosophy. It goes

Lynch. All. Liars.

I find it nearly impossible to believe that you didn't even bother to do a quick double check as part of an actual sincere scumhunting effort (instead of piggybacking on the hate). And then you dodged my question, Anatole.

Lynch. All. Liars.

Vote: Anatole

You can lynch Boonskiies when I'm dead for a twofer, fyi.

You didn't read that game really well did you? That game had a neighborizer and the first person he neighborized was scum.

GreyICE, by your own philosophy, you are a liar and should be lynched. You can go ahead and vote yourself now.

[Anatole Kuragin]

That #3 was a Scumslip of TTH's, and the person she was talking to has played with me before. Hm...

We should lynch TTH today.

Can you reword that first sentence? Are you saying that TTH has played with you?

[Anatole Kuragin]

I don't see the scumslip.

[Anatole Kuragin]

Uhh.. so are you going to explain it wake?

[Anatole Kuragin]

"I haven't had any games with him, but I've read a couple games with Wake88 and I've seen his posts around the forum (particularly Mafia Discussion)."

that is a complete thought expressing that she expects difficulty in nailing down wake's alignment. Do you guys not see the comma and dependent clause after it?

[Anatole Kuragin]

What I mean is - if she had just said "I haven't played with him before" in response to nothing, yeah that would look like a slip up maybe. But that's not what happened. I think TTH is just a better writer than us and thus has more variance in her sentence structure.

[Anatole Kuragin]

"I haven't had any games with him, but I've read a couple games with Wake88 and I've seen his posts around the forum (particularly Mafia Discussion)."

that is a complete thought expressing that she expects difficulty in nailing down wake's alignment. Do you guys not see the comma and dependent clause after it?

That's what was making me doubt myself.

But, let's say someone asked her 'Have you played with BBT before?' and she responded with that post. Would that also make sense to you?

Does it look like newbscum asking for advice on how to deal with a potential problem?

It just looks like someone who's heard of another player asking about them..

[Anatole Kuragin]

Why is your first instinct upon reading "tackle a read" to assume the aim is to fabricate a false one?

[Anatole Kuragin]

Typically mafia do not have daytalk. Some mods are starting to make it a standard part of their rules, and some require an encryptor (a role different from goon, whose only purpose is to provide daytalk as long as he is alive).

[Anatole Kuragin]

Are you townreading GreyICE for being an opportunistic liar or for being a hypocrite?

[Anatole Kuragin]

I'm inclined to agree, which makes it even more annoying.

for the record - I wasn't trying to avoid answering his question, I just couldn't remember games in particular without breaking any site rules about referring to ongoing games (which is the main reason why I won't discuss any others, unless greyice digs another game up that had neighbors).

[Anatole Kuragin]

But seriously, grey ice, did you even spend two minutes looking at that game? Hito was scum and was in the neighborhood either from the beginning or from night 1 which is obvious just by looking at the neighborhood QT.

[Anatole Kuragin]

Awesome - from the little experience I've had with Antihero, he seems like a great player and a cool dude.

[Anatole Kuragin]

How is scrambles any more suspicious than flubber, csareo, rufflig, etc. if your only basis is they haven't said much?

[Anatole Kuragin]

Do you think not posting much makes them scummy?

[Anatole Kuragin]

I find that to be a really lazy and counter-productive way of looking for scum, particularly for someone purporting to be looking for scum by analyzing productivity.

[Anatole Kuragin]

So, if Scrambles and Flubber continued to contribute in the way they are, you're happy with that? We just continue ignoring them?

They'll either replace out or start playing, likely. Townies lurk/are lazy/get disinterested in games. It's a total crapshoot to just start chainsawing through lurkers and is just going to waste days.

[Anatole Kuragin]

I'm telling you there is no indication he is scum in that post given everything that's going on in this thread.

[Anatole Kuragin]

You can't seriously believe that is "definitely a scumslip"

[Anatole Kuragin]

So while we're dealing in elementary associations, would you, by the inverse, be scum if she flips town for attacking her?

There is no discrepancy. I've asked that you point it out.

[Anatole Kuragin]

No, it really doesn't.

[Anatole Kuragin]

that is a beautiful VC

[Anatole Kuragin]

Man I can't wait to hear from greyice again!

[Anatole Kuragin]

we have almost 12/14 days dude

[Anatole Kuragin]

guys, it's not bad grammar. it's just a different way of laying out the sentence...

[Anatole Kuragin]

Flubber

: Do you think there are circumstances where a townie should lie? If so, can you give some examples?

With the exception of some 1337 gambits that I could pull from the wiki, next to none. But I don't see any strong scum motivation in AK's lie. Like, I'm going to claim right now I have a 13 inch penis. Do you think a wagon is going to form on me over it because of "lynch all liars"? It was anti-town to lie, but how is my lie going to forward scum? And that's ignoring the debate of whether or not he actually lied or not.

I think there's a far cry between you lying about your anatomy, and AK lying about his experience with game mechanics in response to a direct question. Without any followup, AK's claim would have cemented (at least for Dougal, who asked) the likelihood that one of {BBT, TelltaleHeart} are scum, and he would have proceeded through the game with that expectation. Do you still think that's on par with your junk?

Did you guys read ANY of the thread GreyICE posted to show that I "lied"? Or any of my posts about how incorrect he was?

[Anatole Kuragin]

Ok - I got the impression from

But I don't see any strong scum motivation in AK's lie

that you thought I was lying.

[Anatole Kuragin]

I think he knows that his will alone does not have a direct influence on this game, its mechanics, or the universe in general and it's likely BBT's last comment was facetious.

[Anatole Kuragin]

I tend to mislynch day one (I think maybe 100% of my town games despite having a 100% town winrate) so I've been trying to go off townreads instead of scumreads early on. I feel good about dougal and TTH so far.

I really dislike yours and wake's frequent reactionary grasping but I don't think that makes you scum.

[Anatole Kuragin]

I don't like greyice's really weird attempt to start a wagon on me based 100% on a lie then him lurking since, while posting elsewhere.

[Anatole Kuragin]

I think he knows that his will alone does not have a direct influence on this game, its mechanics, or the universe in general and it's likely BBT's last comment was facetious.

Uh huh.

So, what do you think of this possibility, Anatole?

kinda goofy - I think the odds of BBT and TTH both being scum are very low

[Anatole Kuragin]

everything completed is in my wiki - I'll quote those posts

[Anatole Kuragin]

Yeah...

VOTE: TellTaleHeart

That #3 was a Scumslip of TTH's, and the person she was talking to has played with me before. Hm...

We should lynch TTH today.

Wake88

: What is your experience with alt accounts? Also, if TTH is scum, who is her partner that has played with you before?

I have quite a few, and have seen players alt-slip. It wouldn't be surprising if most members on this site had at least one legitimate alternate. As for the second question, I'm not sure. It's definitely a Scumslip in my opinion, but she's asking the other player if he/she has played with me before, while asking how to go about tackling a read like that. TTH's #3 is completely disjointed and looks like it was meant for the Mafia QT, because BBT never asked or said anything about other players in the game. BBT asks how to start the Day, and TTH immediately starts talking about a player, as if they had been in that conversation... when they weren't.

Mmhmm...

So we haven't been assured that Scum cannot quote posts from their QT/PT and pass it off as being from a Neighborhood.

Interesting...

Do you suspect this to be happening? If so, why?

I consider it a possibility. If DP won't clarify whether or not two Scum with Daytalk or pregame chat can quote their posts and make them out to be from a Neighborhood, then that doesn't hinder the notion that BBT and TTH could very well be Scum trying to pull a fast one on us. Start with a squabble, make it look like a Neighborhood dispute, then quickly make up. I've seen elaborate gambits and tricks by Scum, and it would not surprise me if that turned out to be the case.

I do. I've played enough games over the years to know when something isn't quite adding up. Should TTH flip Scum, I would certainly suspect you of being her Scum partner because of your role in trying to get everyone else to stop digging at the discrepancy.

[Anatole Kuragin]

None of this is especially pro-town, evidence based reasoning.

[Anatole Kuragin]

All this talk of whether neighbours have pre-game chat is ridiculous.

Every game I have played in I have had pre-game chat if my role allows for it. It's usually quite short as you only have as long as it takes for the majority/everyone to confirm for the game. When that's done, the chat is closed.

Boon's 93 was awful.

Anatole lying is also pretty bad.

VOTE: Anatole

I'm a neighbor with BBT and from the pregame chatter coupled with the opening vote while lacking a forthcoming explanation, I'm already very distrusting of him.

VOTE: BBT

Very interesting. You knew I suspected you right? That's why you've come out all guns blazing on me. Opening vote? It's RVS, is there a reason you're so paranoid?

I believe TTH slipped to me in the neighbour thread. It looked like she was replying to somebody else with the way she started her message. I think she knows she slipped and is trying to get me out of the way.

@BBT - What are your thoughts on TTH and his neighbor claim along with his suspicion on you?

The neighbour claim is correct. See above for why I believe she is suspicious of me.

Also, my RVS vote is now a serious vote.

That #3 was a Scumslip of TTH's, and the person she was talking to has played with me before. Hm...

We should lynch TTH today.

That was my line of thinking. I just starting doubting myself after constantly re-reading it. I think TTH knew I was suspicious and decided to come after me from the get-go.

I hope my stance is a little clearer with this information out.

VOTE: TTH

@doogal - what question have you asked me?

@scrambles - great contribution so far. Have a vote

VOTE: Scrambles

I can't vote all four of them can I?

I chose the latest to actively lurk. That happened to be Scrambles. Like, he is posting, but may as well not be posting because he hasn't said anything.

[Anatole Kuragin]

Excluding the back-and-forth on TTH's "slip," dougal pretty much summed up my opinion on BBT's reactions.

I'm not willing to walk away from this whole BBT-TTH thing yet...

BBT, when you quoted, you said the thread was locked. Why? Do you only have night chat or something?
TTH: Why, of all players, did you pick Wake as the first one to isolate in discussion?

Everybody who has actually rolled Mafia before: Does Mafia typically have day chat or night chat only? I always assumed they had day chat.

BBT: Did you actually look into the Greyice Anatole LaL claim, or did you just vote it assuming that Greyice was being truthful? If you took him at his word, why didn't you look further?

Here is another question:
BBT, do you just look at the last post and throw a vote down or do you read the thread?

[Anatole Kuragin]

So where do you currently stand on TTH, BBT?

I think she is town

For any reason other than the previous case against her being pretty bunch bunk?

[Anatole Kuragin]

pretty much*

[Anatole Kuragin]

For any reason other than the previous case against her being pretty bunch bunk?

I think I was suffering from conf. bias the moment I got my role PM. Her responses seem town and I think she was genuinely suspicious of my activity in the neighbour thread.

Also, despite pressure building between the two of us, she was still scum-hunting elsewhere as well.

I agree with all of this.

[Anatole Kuragin]

I've read all of your analyses this game which range from insightful to goofy conspiracy theories and elementary, illogical associations.

[Anatole Kuragin]

None of this is especially pro-town, evidence based reasoning.

Uh, Anatole, it's Day 1. We don't have any evidence to work with. All we've got are our questions, suspicions, and paranoia.

There is evidence, it's just harder to find and it's harder to discern which evidence indicates scum or just anti-town town behavior.

[Anatole Kuragin]

If you believed there was no evidence at all you wouldn't have any reads.

[Anatole Kuragin]

I've read all of your analyses this game which range from insightful to goofy conspiracy theories and elementary, illogical associations.

None of this is especially pro-town, evidence based reasoning.

Uh, Anatole, it's Day 1. We don't have any evidence to work with. All we've got are our questions, suspicions, and paranoia.

There is evidence, it's just harder to find and it's harder to discern which evidence indicates scum or just anti-town town behavior.

Is it objective or subjective?

What do you consider to be indicative of Scum?

The reason I ask is that you seem choosy over what's Scummy and what isn't. Iirc you made it seem as if I had no evidence or reason to suspect the Neighborhood issue was actually two Scum doing a gambit. What is your personal system in measuring what's Scummy and what's anti-Town?

By the way, do you think posts/sentences sounding fake or hollow is Scummy or anti-Town? How about refusing to be a team player and helping Town? I want to better know what your preferences are when you play the game.

Being in a neighborhood is not inherently scummy, so just assuming the neighborhood is doing a gambit or that it's two scum doing a gambit involving one of them immediately voting the other has no evidence to support it. If there is a simpler explanation that makes as much or more sense and there is literally nothing else to suggest otherwise besides that it is *possible*, I'm going to go with the simpler explanation and opt to find scum based on scumminess instead.

Scumhunting is situational and lots of times things that look scummy are not scum motivated and vice versa. Pursuing cases for no reason is not pro-town, which means it may or may not be scum-motivated.

What specifically are you taking issue with that I said was/wasn't scummy that you disagree with so we don't have to waste time talking in hypotheticals about an entirely situational process?

[Anatole Kuragin]

Being in a neighborhood is not inherently scummy, so just assuming the neighborhood is doing a gambit or that it's two scum doing a gambit involving one of them immediately voting the other has no evidence to support it. If there is a simpler explanation that makes as much or more sense and there is literally nothing else to suggest otherwise besides that it is *possible*, I'm going to go with the simpler explanation and opt to find scum based on scumminess instead.

Scumhunting is situational and lots of times things that look scummy are not scum motivated and vice versa. Pursuing cases for no reason is not pro-town, which means it may or may not be scum-motivated.

What specifically are you taking issue with that I said was/wasn't scummy that you disagree with so we don't have to waste time talking in hypotheticals about an entirely situational process?

I'm saying loud and clear that those two could be Scum, and quoting parts of their QT/PT to make it look like they are part of a Neighborhood, when they really aren't. I asked DP directly if Scum could quote their QT/PT and lie about where it came from, and he would not answer it clearly. That tells me something. It tells me it's possible. Likely? I don't know. But possible? Absolutely.

Anatole, if I feel something is off, I'm going to pick at it, and look for little threads to unravel. If you would, please don't be obstructionist in me searching for the truth. Unless, of course, if you're Scum. In that case keep doing so for when players start flipping. It just isn't sitting well with me these shenanigans involving the Neighborhood, and even if not both are Scum, then it's still on the table that one of them might be, especially with their quarrel during the game's start. If BBT is indeed Town, apparently he felt strongly enough to out his Neighborhood while flying out of the gates.

Also, please be a bit more concise and less confusing with your words. I don't want to feel as if you're Scum who is trying to muddy the waters.

I can't be obstructionist if I don't know what you're even trying to figure out. You're obstructing yourself by asking obtuse questions and trying to vilify me for pointing that out. How is that benefiting anyone?

[Anatole Kuragin]

Being in a neighborhood is not inherently scummy.

I never said that.

Why are

you

saying that?

What the fuck are you even saying? I very clearly said the opposite of that.

[Anatole Kuragin]

What is confusing about my words?

[Anatole Kuragin]

No, I said they're all in my wiki.

[Anatole Kuragin]

I don't have a problem with you thinking there is something more going on in the neighborhood, I have a problem with a theory based on what you see is a weird mod interaction and a weird gambit that is going to lead to us lynching people for the sole reason being them being neighbors. I don't see that line of investigation getting us any closer to finding scum.

[Anatole Kuragin]

Ok so when I said "ok I will quote those posts" and then quoted a ton of posts directly relevant to the posts you asked me to quote, it wasn't clear what I was doing?

[Anatole Kuragin]

I tend to mislynch day one (I think maybe 100% of my town games despite having a 100% town winrate) so I've been trying to go off townreads instead of scumreads early on. I feel good about dougal and TTH so far.

I really dislike yours and wake's frequent reactionary grasping but I don't think that makes you scum.

Define reactionary grasping, please, and how me and BBT are doing so.

You said this, I said I would quote posts, admittedly with poor syntax, then quoted a ton of relevant posts. If you read those posts there's no way you couldn't get what I was saying there.

[Anatole Kuragin]

There is nothing suspicious about the neighborhood claim dude. Nobody thinks that but you.

And your theory literally amounts to wanting to lynch people for being neighbors no matter how many times you say it doesn't.

[Anatole Kuragin]

Ok so when I said "ok I will quote those posts" and then quoted a ton of posts directly relevant to the posts you asked me to quote, it wasn't clear what I was doing?

No, because I am busy with real-life, too.

Your poor syntax made it confusing and made me think you were going to quote/share you Scum games in-thread.

My syntax is irrelevant to the fact that if you read all of my posts in that sequence it's obvious you would know what I was saying, especially because you never followed up on your question that I clearly answered with all of those quotes.

[Anatole Kuragin]

There is nothing suspicious about the neighborhood claim dude. Nobody thinks that but you.

And your theory literally amounts to wanting to lynch people for being neighbors no matter how many times you say it doesn't.

It's definitely suspicious.

TTH and BBT came into the thread bringing up their supposed Neighborhood while trying to cast suspicion on each other and QT/PT posts getting quoted. Now it looks like BBT's letting it go, along with TTH. That's how I see it, anyways. You stating that nobody thinks this but me is immaterial, because as long as I do my part I'll hopefully win with Town in the end. I can do my part by being very vocal, and praying that hopefully Townies keeo my posts in mind mid to late game.

My theory does not amount to wanting to lynch players for being Neighbors. I'm simply pointing it out that Scum could quote posts from their QT/PT and DoctorPepper won't do anything about it. That makes it very possible that Scum can do this. THAT is what I'm wondering about, and I'm going to continue asking about it in spite of you and BBT's efforts to keep me quiet.

Dude, this is the disconnect between your brain and reality. Because something is POSSIBLE does not make it probable, likely, or worth voting on. It's possible there are 6 doctors in this game. Are you going to go into the night phase assuming that?

If people keep your reads in mind until late game then we'll probably have already lost. Not that it would matter because scum would probably never kill you anyways.

[Anatole Kuragin]

Ok so when I said "ok I will quote those posts" and then quoted a ton of posts directly relevant to the posts you asked me to quote, it wasn't clear what I was doing?

No, because I am busy with real-life, too.

Your poor syntax made it confusing and made me think you were going to quote/share you Scum games in-thread.

My syntax is irrelevant to the fact that if you read all of my posts in that sequence it's obvious you would know what I was saying, especially because you never followed up on your question that I clearly answered with all of those quotes.

Not necessarily. I work so much that I barely have time to read through pages of the game. Your syntax in this case does matter, because you should want to be understood, without people taking the meaning of your posts one way or the other.

Wait, you aren't reading the entire game? Even when you directly ask people shit constantly and the posts clearly pertain to you? Why are you even playing?

[Anatole Kuragin]

DoctorPepper would be vague regardless of whether scum was doing what you're suggesting or not because he's not a shitty mod.

[Anatole Kuragin]

How could you possibly believe that you have anywhere near complete or correct reads if you're not reading the posts of the people you're making those reads on?

[Anatole Kuragin]

if you were a townie you would

READ THE GAME

holy jesus how are you even seriously defending that stance

[Anatole Kuragin]

You deserve to be discredited a million times over by every mafia player in this universe and any other possible hypothetical universes.

[Anatole Kuragin]

How could you possibly believe that you have anywhere near complete or correct reads if you're not reading the posts of the people you're making those reads on?

...interesting. So that's what's up. Any more discrediting you'd like to paint me with, Anatole?

You've been searching for different ways to discredit me in this game. At least two blatant examples, I think.

If you were a Townie, you should seek to actually try and weigh each issue, with the pros and the cons, instead of being an obvious dissembler.

Like, please, answer my question you are quoting. I would love to hear what psychic power you hold that allows you to judge players when you aren't even reading their posts.

[Anatole Kuragin]

I came into this game trying to fucking defend you and you are seriously proving everyone right with this shit.

[Anatole Kuragin]

I don't think it's very townish to not read the game

I don't think it's very townish to call a player scum if you haven't read their posts

I don't think it's very townish to ask a player for something that shows you were playing foolishly then not even read their response

[Anatole Kuragin]

Maybe instead of posting a ton of shitposts and garbage you could spend your valuable time actually reading the game you fucking signed up for?

[Anatole Kuragin]

And you still haven't answered my original question about how you are able to arrive at reads without reading the game. Why are you trying to obfuscate?

[Anatole Kuragin]

i'm not voting wake at this moment solely because I am too frustrated to determine if it would be a policy lynch or not

I am leaning not

[Anatole Kuragin]

You asked for evidence of you and BBT making reactionary posts - I made massive quote posts showing this and then you claimed you hadn't read this. That is what that "loaded question" is because you already admitted to having not read those posts.

[Anatole Kuragin]

VOTE: wake

Literally nobody is saying you are scum JUST for not reading "every post" you are scum for a myriad of reasons now, but the one you are TRYING to refute is that you are making cases on people and actively posting while not reading your target's posts and complaining about not having time to read every post. As if posting these braindead cases does not require any time at all.

[Anatole Kuragin]

Missing details is NOT a scum tell. If anything it is a town tell.

What the fuck does that have to do with him making reads on players without reading THEIR posts? And it's not "details" it's entire posts that HE asked for as if to imply he was scumhunting which he clearly wasn't because he ignored the result.

Are you reading the game at all?

[Anatole Kuragin]

VOTE: wake

Literally nobody is saying you are scum JUST for not reading "every post" you are scum for a myriad of reasons now, but the one you are TRYING to refute is that you are making cases on people and actively posting while not reading your target's posts and complaining about not having time to read every post. As if posting these braindead cases does not require any time at all.

Myriad of reasons? Name 5...

Ok. Because it has been unclear in the past, the post immediately proceeding this one will contain the answer to your question.

[Anatole Kuragin]

if you were a townie you would

READ THE GAME

holy jesus how are you even seriously defending that stance

There is nothing suspicious about the neighborhood claim dude. Nobody thinks that but you.

And your theory literally amounts to wanting to lynch people for being neighbors no matter how many times you say it doesn't.

I don't think it's very townish to not read the game

I don't think it's very townish to call a player scum if you haven't read their posts

I don't think it's very townish to ask a player for something that shows you were playing foolishly then not even read their response

And you still haven't answered my original question about how you are able to arrive at reads without reading the game. Why are you trying to obfuscate?

You asked for evidence of you and BBT making reactionary posts - I made massive quote posts showing this and then you claimed you hadn't read this. That is what that "loaded question" is because you already admitted to having not read those posts.

VOTE: wake

Literally nobody is saying you are scum JUST for not reading "every post" you are scum for a myriad of reasons now, but the one you are TRYING to refute is that you are making cases on people and actively posting while not reading your target's posts and complaining about not having time to read every post. As if posting these braindead cases does not require any time at all.

These all show the reasons why I am voting wake because that evidently wasn't extremely fucking clear because I just posted them like in the past twenty minutes.

[Anatole Kuragin]

You're clearly not reading because it has already been explained that when you say "missing details" you are incorrect.

[Anatole Kuragin]

Anatole, that is not 5 different reasons. It is the same reason repeated in 7 posts.

I didn't count the reasons but there are more than one. They all arrive at the point that wake is anti-town, not scumhunting, not even reading the game, and trying to lynch people for stupid reasons.

[Anatole Kuragin]

Wake did you or did you not attempt to make cases on players without reading all of their posts?

Wake did you or did you not attempt to explain away cases on your for doing this by saying you don't have time to read the game in the form of time-consuming posts?

[Anatole Kuragin]

Did you or did you not avoid my question asking how you could POSSIBLY have a complete read on a player without reading their posts by attempting to discredit me for asking you about this?

Did you or did you not state multiple times that it's SCUMMY of me to try and discredit you?

[Anatole Kuragin]

Ok, so if we lynch BBT and he comes up town, you will admit that you're literally spewing garbage from your metaphorical mouth right now? Because all of this is to somehow protect the ancient secrets of the scum neighborhood?

[Anatole Kuragin]

Anatole, you're making this very confusing.

Some observations:

1) You've attempted to get me to look elsewhere from the 'Neighbors' issue.
2) You've lied about my posts by saying I was going after them for being Neighbors.
3) You've fought hard to discredit me and otherwise shovel dirt on my posts which are simply asking questions.
4) Your posts are hard to understand, and you don't appear to be making any sort of effort to make yourself clearer, to be understood.
5) You're trying to say I haven't read the game simply because I haven't read a few posts and misunderstood your post, which you admitted had poor syntax.

6) You

really

want me to look elsewhere.

You're not just asking questions. You're making cases without evidence and recklessly voting people or accusing them of being scum when they point it out. You are either willfully ignorant of the way this game is played or you are scum - there really is no other explanation.

Answer my questions.

[Anatole Kuragin]

Why are you still avoiding my questions wake?

And why do you keep positing that me interjecting in your neighborhood genocide is somehow a scumtell? It's a brainless excuse to lynch people for no reason and I'm trying to stop it for that exact reason.

[Anatole Kuragin]

Gameplay is permanently on my blacklist for multiple reasons, some profoundly personal that I can't go into because of ongoing game rules, but I promise he also deserves any amount of discrediting he can get and I'd rather not ever read his name again.

[Anatole Kuragin]

How do you 'miss a few posts'? When you've finished reading the game and you go to work or whatever, do you not come back to the post where you finished reading and start from there? That would make sense, right?

I don't understand how you can miss a few posts.

Is this a joke? How old are you?

In the real world, especially if you're working in health care, you're going to be working somewhere at or above 40+ hours a week.

I read as I can between my shifts, but I also have a lot of non-work stuff to take care of, too. That's what you do when, you know, you're a working adult who has to earn money in order to support himself.

You don't understand how I could miss a few posts because you're probably a teenager who isn;t working and has lots of time on his hand to play a very complicated and time-consuming game. That actually THINK missing a few posts = not reading the game = Scum is beyond ridiculous, and I'd rather not play with you in future games if your view on gameplay is that warped and unreal.

Completely independent of my alignment, your alignment, or anything else pertaining to this game: posts like this make you look like an asshole.

[Anatole Kuragin]

No, you aren't making any sense. You clearly have tons of time to spend posting your inane theories and reads and covering for yourself but claim to not have enough time to read posts that YOU ASKED FOR. Then you have the nerve to insult people for pointing it out.

And you're still ignoring my questions despite so much of your tirade of bullshit stemming from people allegedly trying to avoid your questions.

You are the one who looks like a troll here.

[Anatole Kuragin]

You realize I was the first one to say that it's likely there is scum in the neighborhood right?

[Anatole Kuragin]

Actually, maybe not the first but it's pretty obvious i supported that notion in the early game because it lead to greyice embarrassing himself.

[Anatole Kuragin]

The only thing I took issue with is wake's assertion that both people in the neighborhood were actually scum and the neighborhood was a conspiracy, but since you've made it clear you also haven't read the game I'm not even going to argue.

[Anatole Kuragin]

VOTE: BlueBloodedToffee

Why do you need to quote to us your discussion of who to night kill?

Having at least one scum in a neighborhood has been the situation in every single game I have played with neighbors.

just to make it easy

Also I just lol'd because I apparently jokingly implied that the neighborhood was the scum team in my very first post which is especially funny in light of all this.

[Anatole Kuragin]

Wake I'm sorry I was so mean yesterday but I promise that was 100% genuine frustration.

You asked me to make a post and you didn't look at it at all. Instead of reading those posts you continued attacking people for what I saw/see as bad reasons.

[Anatole Kuragin]

VOTE: GreyICE

This dude dropped a really shitty post to just start ignoring the thread and post elsewhere on the site and he needs to address it. I'm going to sleep on the wake thing some more because he actually seems to believe what he's saying.

Scrambles is also posting elsewhere but he didn't drop a really scummy post before going into lurk mode like ice did.

[Anatole Kuragin]

Wake and GreyICE are both voting me - on your VC there are two anatoles, each having one of the aforementioned votes

[Anatole Kuragin]

I'd probably vote csareo over bbt, but I'd rather not end this day without hearing from greyice regardless

[Anatole Kuragin]

Csareo, if BBT flips town, what does that tell us about TTH?

If he flips scum, what does that tell us about TTH?

[Anatole Kuragin]

so you want to lynch them back to back?

[Anatole Kuragin]

Csar, you have said both:

they are likely a team (with me)

and they are likely opposite alignments

which is it?

[Anatole Kuragin]

Yeah, but you also said we would learn a lot from the lynch, except you have expressed that you think either of the options could be true, meaning there's no way we wouldn't have to lynch both of them back to back for you to really be sure right?

[Anatole Kuragin]

Yeah, but you also said we would learn a lot from the lynch, except you have expressed that you think either of the options could be true, meaning there's no way we wouldn't have to lynch both of them back to back for you to really be sure right?

[Anatole Kuragin]

unvote
vote: Csaero

I think that was a slip

You're all caught up then? You have nothing else to say?

If this guy flips scum and he gets away with this all game I'm not going to have good things to say about town post-game.

Does that go for the other people you impulsively voted at different points too?

[Anatole Kuragin]

BBT is voting for a dumb reason if it's just that "slip" that was a typo. A good reason is your arguments that simultaneously, BBT and TTH are likely to be a team and unlikely to be a team.

[Anatole Kuragin]

Even happier with my vote on GreyICE knowing he's watching league of legends to avoid explaining his bullshitting

[Anatole Kuragin]

I'm also scum reading greyice, but what's more alarming is BBT voting everyone who scum reads him, or provides a threat.
What have we learned since 1986, people?

I may be giving his scum game too much credit, but I don't see BBT CONTINUING to brashly vote every living thing like this if he is actually scum trying to make it to endgame.

[Anatole Kuragin]

Doesn't it apply the same for town. Why is he voting everyone who replies to him if he wants to be a helpful and productive townie?

he clearly is not being a helpful and productive townie, but I would make the same case for you, boonskies, rambler, and a few others and I don't think you're scum

[Anatole Kuragin]

Csareo and Boonskies are pretty much exhibiting the same cognitive dissonance.

"I'm scumreading these players based on this scenario but I'm also scumreading the same players because of a second hypothetical scenario that is completely incompatible with the first scenario."

[Anatole Kuragin]

Also, I still see AK as getting scum reads from criticizing bad play instead of trying to read for intentions.

Why do you think my vote on GreyICE is due to criticizing bad play? He tried (successfully) to mislead people into voting for me. Felt like he was trying pretty hard too, despite obviously completely misreading or misunderstanding what was going on in the game he referenced. He then admitted that he is deliberately avoiding the thread to answer the questions pertaining to that.

[Anatole Kuragin]

Also, I still see AK as getting scum reads from criticizing bad play instead of trying to read for intentions.

Why do you think my vote on GreyICE is due to criticizing bad play? He tried (successfully) to mislead people into voting for me. Felt like he was trying pretty hard too, despite obviously completely misreading or misunderstanding what was going on in the game he referenced. He then admitted that he is deliberately avoiding the thread to answer the questions pertaining to that.

I'm more concerned about the discussions you've been having with Csaero and Wake. Voting for GreyICE could very easily be a bus anyway, considering the fact that somone popped one of the wheels on that wagon and then left it in quicksand.

I already said I'm not scumreading Csareo though.

[Anatole Kuragin]

I think Wake is trying but using highly flawed reasoning - you'll notice I'm not voting him either. I think Csareo is just bullshitting around.

[Anatole Kuragin]

I'd probably vote

csareo

over bbt,

he clearly is not being a helpful and productive townie, but I would make the same case for you[Csareo], boonskies, rambler, and a few others and I don't think you're scum[Csareo]

Csareo

and Boonskies are pretty much exhibiting the same cognitive dissonance.

I already said I'm not scumreading

Csareo

though.

@Anatole Kuragin:

Could you explain your stance changes on Csareo?

I was pretty pissed off at the time and willing to policy lynch. I think Csareo is a liability but thinking clearly I'm not going to support a policy lynch.

[Anatole Kuragin]

Can we see about replacing GreyICE since he is too busy posting about league of legends to honor his game commitment?

[Anatole Kuragin]

Everything about BBT reads to me as over-excited town so I don't plan on voting him unless some new shit comes to light. It's also unlikely if he's town that he has another role to claim besides neighbor so it's probably a dead end road.

[Anatole Kuragin]

TTH claimed for him like five minutes into the game...

[Anatole Kuragin]

TTH claimed for him like five minutes into the game...

this is to csareo

[Anatole Kuragin]

Csareo I would be FLOORED if you were ever night killed in any game.

[Anatole Kuragin]

Everything about BBT reads to me as over-excited town so I don't plan on voting him unless some new shit comes to light. It's also unlikely if he's town that he has another role to claim besides neighbor so it's probably a dead end road.

Wouldn't over excited town be less defensive and more tunnel-y?

I would think it would depend on the player. He seemed genuinely upset he was outed by his neighbor and I think

he thinks

he keeps seeing all of these scum tells and is going after them.

[Anatole Kuragin]

I have several issues with Green Crayon's opening post 600.
Csareo is hardly the only one guilty of advocating a lynch sequence. Off the top of my head, I recall BBT, Wake, and Anatole advocating a sequence lynch at some point ("if one of them flips town, lynch the other one" or something to that effect).

Pretty sure I never did that.

[Anatole Kuragin]

@0mph: FOS for buddying yourself in 659.



@Wake and AK, Who would you be comfortable lynching and why are you both reserving your votes?

I wanted to hear from GreyICE but it looks like that ship has sailed. Rufflig was my second choice but I need to figure out why again.

[Anatole Kuragin]

we already know he is either a) mafia or b) neighbor

there is literally nothing else he can claim, this is a normal game and you guys are kinda ridiculous

[Anatole Kuragin]

Rufflig, you said you had some questions for me about my posts - was it just my posts about Csareo or did you have other questions?

[Anatole Kuragin]

Back in the office and catching up, sorry last week was kinda rough so I wasn't around much.

[Anatole Kuragin]

I can talk about another neighbor game now that had previously been in progress - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=58353 3 person neighborhood with a scum (traitor) and two townies.

[Anatole Kuragin]

@wake, Anatole:

you two, along with Jagged, are the only players who aren't voting for either Csareo or BBT. I'm curious as to your thoughts about both wagons, and why your vote is where it is (Anatole on Jagged (replacing GreyICE), and wake on nobody, as of last VC).

GreyICE did what I saw and still see as the most bombastically scummy thing in the game so far and it's being completely ignored because he replaced out, and his replacement hasn't touched on it once. I think that's shady as fuck.

Flubber, put the spotlight on me please. I will answer whatever you want - I find it weird that you're trying to steer the discussion without actually "engaging" me.

[Anatole Kuragin]

I still don't think BBT or Csareo have done anything that elevates them past misguided townies. Those are strictly deadline hammers for me and nothing else.

Rufflig -

Give final reads, too.

That's something pro-Town you could do.

Would you do me a favor, Wake88? Pressure Csareo into making a proper reads list, too. Csareo's BBT and x are scum and everyone else is null/town should not be allowed to stand as a reads list.

Can we lynch BBT pls. And then put the spotlight on AK?

Lynch BBT? No thanks. However, I'm up for shining some light on Anatole Kuragin. I'd love to hear what you have to say on the subject.

Why can't you put pressure on Csareo or me yourself? What do YOU have to say on the subject?

[Anatole Kuragin]

What do you find scummy about my posts TTH?

[Anatole Kuragin]

@wake, Anatole:

you two, along with Jagged, are the only players who aren't voting for either Csareo or BBT. I'm curious as to your thoughts about both wagons, and why your vote is where it is (Anatole on Jagged (replacing GreyICE), and wake on nobody, as of last VC).

BBT made lots of bad votes. He wasn't deliberately dishonest and he continued doing it after the spotlight was on him - that doesn't strike me as scum dropping convenient votes to get wagons started, it strikes me as an overzealous, overreactive nub honestly. This play-style has been consistent of him all game. GreyICE did one scummy as fuck thing then completely dropped off when called on it.

What about the gamestate do you see changing since your last set of posts here?

I don't understand, what changed since two posts ago?

Well what exactly are we supposed to ask him about it? "Hey, you scum bro?"

Am I "him" here? If you find something I'm doing scummy or deserving of more attention I figured you'd have a reason why or something in particular that requires a "spotlight?" So what is it?

[Anatole Kuragin]

AK, can you elaborate on why you think both wagons are on town?

Would you not have expected one of the lynches to have been pushed through by now if that was the case?

I don't know why TTH is saying I have referred to my own meta. Because I haven't.

I think there are enough cautious players in this game that the two wagons could be both town. Two DPs from now and we have two wagons like this it may mean something. Day 1, mafia are fishing for towncred and trying to avoid doing anything loud and stupid. If they know the two most likely lynches are mislynches they're probably sitting back sipping mai-tais waiting for some idiot like Boonskies to drop the hammer. Why would they rush?

[Anatole Kuragin]

@Anatole:

How was GreyICE's LAL push scum motivated, particularly in light of Flubber's observation in Post 202: "But that's the thing. It's so easy for someone to just say "nuh-uh" and nothing would have really cemented into Dougal. Which is exactly what happened btw."

Like, I get how it's anti-town, but why would scum push a clearly verifiable misrep/lie about another game setup as the basis to vote/start a wagon push?

I don't know, why would town do it? He got at least two? people to just go along with it. It really came off badly that he skirted off afterwards instead of explaining his thought process. I just wanted to know how that happened and in asking greyice about it, knowing his thought process could have been indicative either way. Now we just have a replacement who is going to act like it never happened and the read on that slot is instantly gone for everyone.

[Anatole Kuragin]

I think there are enough cautious players in this game that the two wagons could be both town. Two DPs from now and we have two wagons like this it may mean something. Day 1, mafia are fishing for towncred and trying to avoid doing anything loud and stupid. If they know the two most likely lynches are mislynches they're probably sitting back sipping mai-tais waiting for some idiot like Boonskies to drop the hammer. Why would they rush?

Hmm, OK. That makes sense. Someone also stated earlier that scum will be unwilling to move votes so as to avoid garnering unwanted attention and I agree with that also.

I just don't see any other wagons forming though.

Other than GreyICE, who are your biggest scum-reads?

Would vote Rufflig or Boonskies. I work more on townreads early on than scumreads.

Townreads - Doogal, Green Crayons, BBT, Csareo

[Anatole Kuragin]

@Anatole:

It's less of a "I find (such and such)

individual

posts scummy" and more of "I find the pattern your activity makes scummy."

So far this game, you very much like to stick to facts and point out obviously bad arguments (criticizing BBT's "scum slip" argument comes to mind). This isn't scummy in and of itself, but then I feel like with the people you

do

push, your analysis is on a very superficial level. Take GreyICE.
I went and took a look at GreyICE's previous games to see if he actually does tend to flake out as scum and the one I found was this one Sleepy Hollow. He seemed plenty active in that game as scum. I also think he could have recovered from the gaffe since, at least as far as I recall, plenty of people (myself included) were ready to forgive him for it.

Why would you forgive him for it without knowing anything about his thought process or motivation? I get that you may not give a shit since it's not you he was baselessly trying to murder, but you don't think it's a little bit strange that the player went through the trouble of researching my games and

completely lied about them

? If such a spectacular attempt at descrediting someone failed, wouldn't you just say fuck it, I'll let my replacement come in and get instantly whitewashed? It rubs me the wrong way and now we'll never know what the fuck he was thinking.

@wake, Anatole:

you two, along with Jagged, are the only players who aren't voting for either Csareo or BBT. I'm curious as to your thoughts about both wagons, and why your vote is where it is (Anatole on Jagged (replacing GreyICE), and wake on nobody, as of last VC).

BBT made lots of bad votes. He wasn't deliberately dishonest and he continued doing it after the spotlight was on him - that doesn't strike me as scum dropping convenient votes to get wagons started, it strikes me as an overzealous, overreactive nub honestly. This play-style has been consistent of him all game. GreyICE did one scummy as fuck thing then completely dropped off when called on it.

What about the gamestate do you see changing since your last set of posts here?

I don't understand, what changed since two posts ago?

Since 701. There's about a 300 post interval between that post and your next post.

Well what exactly are we supposed to ask him about it? "Hey, you scum bro?"

Am I "him" here? If you find something I'm doing scummy or deserving of more attention I figured you'd have a reason why or something in particular that requires a "spotlight?" So what is it?

I have no means of getting additional information in reference to GreyICE's gaffe but I'm assuming by the way you speak of it there is a way. Could you enlighten me here?

I kinda touched on the GreyICE thing already - having an alignment-unknown GreyICE explain what he was thinking would be pretty telling of his motivation.

Most of the last 300 pages have been more mudslinging between csareo and BBT and me-tooing and vague assertions by at least you and TTH. This "you should put some pressure" or "we should put the spotlight" stuff seems really counter-productive and like you're trying to shift suspicion for no specific reason.

[Anatole Kuragin]

@Anatole:

It's less of a "I find (such and such)

individual

posts scummy" and more of "I find the pattern your activity makes scummy."

So far this game, you very much like to stick to facts and point out obviously bad arguments (criticizing BBT's "scum slip" argument comes to mind). This isn't scummy in and of itself, but then I feel like with the people you

do

push, your analysis is on a very superficial level. Take GreyICE.
I went and took a look at GreyICE's previous games to see if he actually does tend to flake out as scum and the one I found was this one Sleepy Hollow. He seemed plenty active in that game as scum. I also think he could have recovered from the gaffe since, at least as far as I recall, plenty of people (myself included) were ready to forgive him for it.

@wake, Anatole:

you two, along with Jagged, are the only players who aren't voting for either Csareo or BBT. I'm curious as to your thoughts about both wagons, and why your vote is where it is (Anatole on Jagged (replacing GreyICE), and wake on nobody, as of last VC).

BBT made lots of bad votes. He wasn't deliberately dishonest and he continued doing it after the spotlight was on him - that doesn't strike me as scum dropping convenient votes to get wagons started, it strikes me as an overzealous, overreactive nub honestly. This play-style has been consistent of him all game. GreyICE did one scummy as fuck thing then completely dropped off when called on it.

What about the gamestate do you see changing since your last set of posts here?

I don't understand, what changed since two posts ago?

Since 701. There's about a 300 post interval between that post and your next post.

Well what exactly are we supposed to ask him about it? "Hey, you scum bro?"

Am I "him" here? If you find something I'm doing scummy or deserving of more attention I figured you'd have a reason why or something in particular that requires a "spotlight?" So what is it?

I have no means of getting additional information in reference to GreyICE's gaffe but I'm assuming by the way you speak of it there is a way. Could you enlighten me here?

I kinda touched on the GreyICE thing already - having an alignment-unknown GreyICE explain what he was thinking would be pretty telling of his motivation.

Most of the last 300 pages have been more mudslinging between csareo and BBT and me-tooing and vague assertions by at least you and TTH. This "you should put some pressure" or "we should put the spotlight" stuff seems really counter-productive and like you're trying to shift suspicion for no specific reason.

I'm trying to shift suspicion because I see the same thing in the last 300 posts that you do. But if you don't like where or why I am trying to shift suspicion, why are you not trying to either shift suspicion somewhere you deem appropriate or help me out in doing the same?

Because you're trying to shift suspicion to me? I'm still playing catch up from the weekend on all my games, so my current method of figuring out my suspicions in this game is to get answers for my questions put forth or responses from my own answers.

[Anatole Kuragin]

Those top two quotes are accidental, stuff I may address later but opted not to now or already referenced.

[Anatole Kuragin]

Can we lynch BBT pls. And then put the spotlight on AK?

Lynch BBT? No thanks. However, I'm up for shining some light on Anatole Kuragin. I'd love to hear what you have to say on the subject.

What do YOU have to say on the subject, Rufflig?

[Anatole Kuragin]

@AK, you probably answered this already, but I can't find it. Can you tell me how you felt about BBT jumping on the LaL wagon against you without even reading the posted game?

Basically because it's consistent with his other moves. That is, engaged but irresponsible voting and overly reactive cases.

[Anatole Kuragin]

Glad you guy's are being more active, but someone has to give now.
Anatole, how do you still not understand why we should lynch BBT?
Are there any questions I can answer to help you get there?

If you want to succinctly sum up the reasons you're voting him I'll entertain them. You guys have both had a lot of back-and-forth that just looks like mudslinging between two proud townies and I'm not sure what the actual case is anymore besides what I just said above - he makes bad and reactive votes. I'm skeptical of you being the roastmaster general for his lynch because I think you've made bad votes too. Not because it makes me suspicious of your role/alignment, but because it makes me suspicious of the reasoning behind condemning him.

[Anatole Kuragin]

I don't care for Jagged Appliance's reads list. Green Crayon's, BBT's, and Anatole's positions on the town list are rather undeserved and there's only one scum read with a rather large group of nulls. It doesn't help that I'm townreading his scum read.

Looking at the voters, the people on the BBT wagon are the people I am town reading, where as the Csareo wagon are either null to scum for me.

I feel the same way.

Funny because those three names are my townreads.

[Anatole Kuragin]

It's not that I'm townreading him - Csareo is a null read for me who is making a lot of the same mistakes and assumptions that townies typically make. I don't see scum motivation for those actions or for his supreme confidence in them. You basically have to accept that if BBT can be town and act the way he is, then Csareo can be as well, and vice versa.

[Anatole Kuragin]

For that reason I'm not particularly inclined to vote either of them because it's going to encourage a situation where we end up lynching both - like the theory about TTH and BBT advocated by Csareo.

[Anatole Kuragin]

That's not at all what I said. The reasoning for lynching both in my mind are pretty similar, and you can't say the reasoning makes one scum and the other town.

I think it's possible one or the other could be scum, but the reasoning presented thus far is pretty shit and not alignment indicative.

[Anatole Kuragin]

you know he could just edit the quote right, or fabricate one completely?

[Anatole Kuragin]

night + pre-game is pretty standard

[Anatole Kuragin]

omph and crayons are different people unless I completely missed something

[Anatole Kuragin]

night + pre-game is pretty standard

I've never heard of Neighbors talking in the pre-game. Scum, yes. Neighbors, no.

The Wiki mentions Day and Night they can talk. It says any time, but still, I've never heard of Neighbors that can talk during the pre-game. Are there other examples of this in the Normal forum?

I don't have a normal example, but I think it's pretty much up to mod's discretion.

[Anatole Kuragin]

you know that saying "we should scumhunt" isn't scumhunting, right?

[Anatole Kuragin]

I think omph forgot about this game (since it's an alt) let alone that she was voting you.

[Anatole Kuragin]

Well, the back and forth on Csareo was one of the main things that I was curious about. I'll admit your answer did not help me. I was rather hoping to get some insight into how you were approaching your reads or the game or something. So, let me try again. Other than Jagged Alliance, who are you currently scum reading?

I already had an outstanding question out for you. I'm sure you simply missed it during the post explosion over the weekend. However, I wasn't really getting anywhere with my read on you, so I asked for a little help.[/quote]

Right, I answered the question about my reads elsewhere without directly acknowledging this post - I find your playing weird in the same way that Flubber's do - asking for pressure or implying there is something I'm not being upfront about despite me answering any question given. I don't know if that makes you scummy or not. I think I'm going to make a case on Boon when I have some more time later.

[Anatole Kuragin]

Well, the back and forth on Csareo was one of the main things that I was curious about. I'll admit your answer did not help me. I was rather hoping to get some insight into how you were approaching your reads or the game or something. So, let me try again. Other than Jagged Alliance, who are you currently scum reading?

I already had an outstanding question out for you. I'm sure you simply missed it during the post explosion over the weekend. However, I wasn't really getting anywhere with my read on you, so I asked for a little help.

Right, I answered the question about my reads elsewhere without directly acknowledging this post -

I find your playing weird in the same way that Flubber's do

- asking for pressure or implying there is something I'm not being upfront about despite me answering any question given. I don't know if that makes you scummy or not. I think I'm going to make a case on Boon when I have some more time later.

this is not a real sentence

"I find your playing weird in the same way that I do Flubber's"

also fixed tags kinda

[Anatole Kuragin]

Okay, so you want to be vigged.

The vig detector is now if Boonskiies dies overnight, if there's two kills and he doesn't we have a serial killer.

Who said you were town, boon?

You said that you would play in such a way that you would behave detrimentally to the town. The only reason to consciously do this is a meta game effort to make your scum play indistinguishable from your town play.

Not only is this against the spirit of this site (play to win the game you are in), it's a detestable, pathetic maneuver. You wish to be unable to read? Fine, I grant you your wish, a place on my blacklist , and copious bullets to pump into your corpse.

Vig, kill this useless piece of shit.

I'm actually beginning to believe that Grey may be a serial killer. He keeps talking like he knows there is a killing role out there other than scum's factional kill. Him bringing up the vigilante constantly to kill someone regardless of alignment is odd to me. Granted, I understand how he could be annoyed by the fact I said I would hammer, but come on man. I said I was a village idiot, I'm just clowning around. It seems as if he is trying to set himself up for a vigilante claim later in the game, which is another reason he's so out to kill me specifically. I'm being targeted to seem like a vigilante will kill me in the night, when in actuality, a serial killer will be doing it, and then he'll be able to fake claim Vigilante and get away with it. On the flipside, the possibility of him being scum, and hoping for a second kill to potentially get a mislynch is also a possibility. Anywho, with the stuff I have to go on now, along with the toxicity, I like where my vote is going to be placed.

VOTE: GreyIce

I agree that his vig discussion is weird. I don't think he's crumbing vig either, as that wouldn't be the wisest way to go about it. Although he could be luring a NK to him, and if he is actually something like VT, I'd say it was good play.

I get that the SK is a little farfetch'd this early in game. I'm over analyzing. Kind of how like OMGUS votes are done by townies because the person voting them initially seemed scummy because the person is actually town. I still feel pretty safe with my vote there for now.


PEdit:

@Rufflig - Well, I don't know how serious he is. I obviously switched up from my troll-like approach immediately after, and yet he still goes on being a toxic player, which in itself is kind of troll-like. I don't see how 'serious' of a player he can be with that attitude, unless he's scum, which him trying to get a lynch/3rd party NK on me would make sense.

I'm looking for inconsistencies and ignorance. Usually I tend to believe people are super ignorant, when in fact they are just scum.

Speaking of inconsistencies - why did you stop speculating on the SK after dropping an early vote on GreyICE for pretty lax reasoning because you thought it might be him (despite not having any evidence whatsoever that an SK exists)?

@massive - It was showing how often I speculate things like I did with the SK posts for GreyIce. I go out there with speculation.

So why are you going with the easiest vote in the game now?

My reasoning for voting him isn't necessarily based on his scum meta. I actually don't believe he's playing too similar to that game either besides prominence and willingness to accept a lynch on someone. In that game he lurked when things starting to cave in on him. I didn't pay a lot of attention to him in that game because I wasn't able to read him. I don't believe his meta from that game should be counted as any reasoning for his lynch toDay, but if someone else could argue otherwise, maybe. He also had stated that it was his worst game he's ever been in, so I would imagine that had some effect as well. I skimmed through that game again, and I really couldn't find any matches besides what I've already stated. But like I said, I don't believe we should scum read OR town read him due to that.


PEdit:

@BBT - I will unvote if it comes to that, but don't expect me to stay unvoted if you can't back it up with new relevant reasons.

1) you say you voted BBT for "flip-flopping," as if this style of play is inherently scummy (particularly interesting because his flip-flopping is all on wagons nowhere near lynches) despite you defending your own style of play multiple times before this. (example, #706 where you FoS massive)
2) What "reasons" can he give you that he is town? What did you expect in response to this?

I just want to get to day 2 already for new information. We've been rehashing the same thing for the past 20 pages.

This looks like pre-emptive defense for having put a recently-flipped town player to L-1 with weak reasoning. "He kinda looked scummy but we got good info!"

So let's consider what info we'll get as you have gesticulated on that on a few occasions.

So from your expert analysis - whether BBT is scum or not, TTH is scum, and if BBT IS scum then I am also scum. I also like to plant the seeds for future lynches without any real evidence early on in the game when I'm playing as scum.

Doogal/AK haven't been around lately. Scrambles/GreyIce slot seem off to me. Especially considering Omph didn't unvote after joining in and we haven't seen him since. Also scrambles was kind of random and didn't back anything else up. Definitely worth looking into tomorrow.

So in addition to BBT, TTH, me and Massive being suspicious, you are also suspicious of Scrambles, Jagged, and Doogal? Isn't that what you're saying here?

[Anatole Kuragin]

I wish you guys would actually read posts...I didn't put BBT to L-1. My vote was already on him, and if you read the thread, you would understand that I was agitated by him, so I voted him again to reassure just how much I wanted him lynched. I didn't not just put my vote on him. It's been there for a long time...

Also, where did I turn on Csareo? I am not against him. I am totally on Csareo's side of the BBT vs Csareo. He's town. Bbt's not.

@massive - I don't understand why you keep assuming I have a wagon on me. There aren't any votes on me.

About the SK thing, GreyIce went mia on us, and I kind of got occupied with BBT. We'll talk about that tomorrow after a night phase.

Is this supposed to be your response to post 1214?

[Anatole Kuragin]

you guys are incorrigible

[Anatole Kuragin]

you guys are incorrigible

You don't agree with my recent posts?

I'm curious to see his answer about the TTH thing but I don't really see a point being made for me to agree with.

[Anatole Kuragin]

Why are you now null-reading Massive after scumreading him in the above posts?

[Anatole Kuragin]

Why have you changed your avatar like ten times in the past five minutes

[Anatole Kuragin]

Why are you now null-reading Massive after scumreading him in the above posts?

[Anatole Kuragin]

BBT - those posts you're quoting are qualified with "if ___ happens," how is that indicative of inconsistency with his current reads?

[Anatole Kuragin]

VOTE: Boonskiies

[Anatole Kuragin]

I don't get the Dougal scumreads

[Anatole Kuragin]

Lurking does not make someone scum. I think Doogal's town.

Boonskiies is a good lynch

[Anatole Kuragin]

I might not be able to post much in the next 12 hours, so if I get around L-2/L-1, give me until the end of tomorrow before I'm hammered, please.


PEdit:

@FakeGod - No, I'm being voted because I was strongly on Csareo's side on the BBT vs Csareo. If you can't stab Julius Caesar, you get his right hand man, Mark Antony, right?

I'm voting you because I made a large post directed to you with some things I found suspicious and you ignored 90% of it.

Boon, I thought your VI play early game and one dimensional late game play are why. Mine especially because of the fact that Anatole defended Doogal for no good reason in favor of your lynch, and I want to run a litmus test on him.

Dougal has come across pro-town to me all game. How is that not a good reason?

[Anatole Kuragin]

@AK - I answered you, and you commented on it.

I incredulously asked you if that was your entire response to my large post, yeah.

[Anatole Kuragin]

Okay, so you want to be vigged.

The vig detector is now if Boonskiies dies overnight, if there's two kills and he doesn't we have a serial killer.

I'd like to bring this back up. I see no reason for GreyIce to post this so early in the game unless he's planning some kind of gambit. I'm still convinced we have a potential serial killer in this game, and I probably see it more than the rest because I was targeted with the post. Also, because of this small wagon that's probably going to pick up more steam when I'm unable to post goes through, I'm going to ensure myself I get NK'd anyways.

@AK - do you no longer feel that GreyIce's slot is scum, even after having your vote on him for a long period of time? If so, what do you think of FakeGod replacing into the slot? You don't think it's possible he replaced into the slot, saw a scum brethren near lynched, and decided to try and completely rule out the BBT vs Csareo for the day so his partner would get at least an extra day?

JaggedAlliance is the greyice slot. I'd probably lynch him as a deadline compromise, but there's literally nothing else to go off of besides GreyICE's neighbor/lie thing so it's hard to justify

[Anatole Kuragin]

So you guys actually had all these reasons you suspected Boon but were just bullshitting around on the town v town lynch options why?

[Anatole Kuragin]

So you guys actually had all these reasons you suspected Boon but were just bullshitting around on the town v town lynch options why?

Why do you believe that Boon being scummy necessitates both Csareo and BBT to be town?

My reads on those players are town, has nothing to do with my boon read.

[Anatole Kuragin]

If BBT flips town
- Boonskies
- Doogal
-

Anatole

If BBT Flips Scum
- Greencrayons
- Massive
-

Anatole

Not scum reading anyone besides BBT, but I will for sure once we have a flip.

You aren't scum-reading me yet.. but regardless of the flip you will scumread me?

[Anatole Kuragin]

Lynching a probable townie over probable scum because "if he's town he'll be NK'd" is productive? That's the dumbest thing I've heard in four posts.

[Anatole Kuragin]

I do believe Boon is lying about being a PR.

I'm inclined to agree.

[Anatole Kuragin]

I'll wait for a fullclaim.

[Anatole Kuragin]

UNVOTE:

This is shitty because we don't want a counter-claim, but tracker is probably the one role he could have that I would believe in the slightest. I'm inclined to give it a day and see what the "result" is.

[Anatole Kuragin]

If we're close to time I can hammer, but I am a little worried now.

[Anatole Kuragin]

jagged

[Anatole Kuragin]

One weekend without posting and the whole game goes to shit once again.

[Anatole Kuragin]

@Anatole:

1) Reading your ISO, I came away with one, consistent theme: GreyICE is super suspicious for his single LAL vote against you. However, I found this to be an odd exchange:

Are you townreading GreyICE for being an opportunistic liar or for being a hypocrite?

I think GreyICE is over-zealously pushing a misunderstanding based on a couple behaviors I'm seeing. He asked you twice prior to the "calling out" post what your experience with neighbors was (post 73 and post 81).

To me, this seems indicative of someone who thinks he's caught you in a contradiction and wants to make sure you're actually making the argument he thinks you're making. I can't think of any scum motivation GreyICE would have in allowing you to correct yourself. The "gotcha'!" post itself (post 106) reads as genuine as well; the large, bolded font, the short sentence structure, and the link to the actual game in question all imply confidence to me that I don't think would be seen in scum, especially given that anyone can follow the link and judge the game for themselves.

While his efforts here are misguided, I think GreyICE actually believes what he's saying.

I'm inclined to agree, which makes it even more annoying.

for the record - I wasn't trying to avoid answering his question, I just couldn't remember games in particular without breaking any site rules about referring to ongoing games (which is the main reason why I won't discuss any others, unless greyice digs another game up that had neighbors).

Why did you make a full 180 retreat from this position?

I'll be completely honest, part of my reaction to GreyICE was a pretty childish pride and I wanted him to be embarrased for such an obvious fuck-up trying to make a case towards me. I wanted the attention to stay on him as long as he was in the game until he came back in, apologized, and looked like an idiot. Jagged Alliance is scummy for different reasons, basically the same stuff you would probably accuse me of with the addition of opportunistic voting.

I can't tell if you're saying that my 180 retreat was me townreading or scumreading him. Can you elaborate on what exactly you find suspicious?

2) It took until Post 1100 for you to suggest that you found someone

other

than GreyICE suspicious. Why so long? (You've mentioned several times that you form townreads before scumreads, so am I to presume that it takes you over a 1000 posts to figure out more than one suspicious player?)

Yeah I honestly don't do shit day 1 in almost 100% of my games (sometimes I'll see something early and push hard).

3) Was Post 1107, where you simply ask Rufflig what he thinks about BBT, in response to his comment that he's curious about what you think about BBT, the only push on your Rufflig suspicions? I didn't see anything else. Why such a sparse push? What did it tell you about Rufflig?

That wasn't really a push. Flubber and Rufflig making vague implications of a potential case seemed like a lazy FoS and I was trying to figure out why so I flipped it over on Rufflig a little bit. Didn't learn anything probably.

4) You state that you think Rufflig was suspicious for "asking for pressure or implying there is something I'm not being upfront about despite me answering any question given," and then suggested that Rufflig and Flubber

both

acted in this manner. So, then, why didn't you mention being willing to vote Flubber in Post 1100?

This is a fair question. I don't think either are worth voting now, for what it's worth.

I don't see the scum case here.

[Anatole Kuragin]

Town is starting to look really powerful, I'm guessing at least one PR claimed is fake.

[Anatole Kuragin]

Yeah but that's not really the point.

[Anatole Kuragin]

So your case adds up to me making a lot of posts you think are useless, and me keeping a vote on GreyICE for most of the day?

[Anatole Kuragin]

so?

[Anatole Kuragin]

I don't have any idea how you can construe that as more scummy than the wagons on Csareo and BBT that were being pushed in those 1000+ posts.

[Anatole Kuragin]

(shrug)

If that's all you've got -- "but surely there's scum on either the Csareo or BBT wagons!" (which is not something I disagree with) -- then I'm happy with my vote.

So you want me to defend myself further than offering an explanation for the things you asked about that show there are clearly players that have acted scummier?

[Anatole Kuragin]

How can I defend myself against a case that is entirely your opinion of my playstyle without claiming? Please tell me.

[Anatole Kuragin]

You could start by explaining why you took a 180 on GreyICE, and you could address the accusation that I made: that you lied in 1099 when you attempted to justify you lone GreyICE suspicions.

I did find it suspicious, that wasn't a lie. His case was anti-town but I don't think the motivation is inherently scummy. I already explained that it was pretty shitty play on my part and me being a dick trying to keep pushing that. Don't know what else to say.

You could also explain what is it about a new day that will give you immense insight that 99 pages don't.

flips

[Anatole Kuragin]

Scum are desperate to keep the wagons off BBT and TTH. How long this farce goes depends on the Township I suppose.

I can see why you might keep pushing TTH, but BBT still? You think the scum faction would seriously implicate all three members in a lie about an overlapping masons/neighborhood grouping?

[Anatole Kuragin]

The lie was that you told me you couldn't see why town would have acted the way GreyICE did. The falsehood comes into play by the fact that you agreed with TTH's reasoning of why town would have made the push -- so you could, in fact, see why town would have acted the way GreyICE did.


Whose flip would be most informative for your analysis? Why? I believe your current list of suspects is nobody, since you unvoted Boon after he claimed and have recently disavowed your Rufflig and Flubber suspicions.

I would vote Boon again, otherwise I'll hammer JA if necessary. I don't see a tracker claim being true with what else we've had claimed and some of my own speculation that I don't think it's pro-town to analyze in thread.

I think for a pure info lynch BBT or TTH would be the best, but I believe more firmly than ever that BBT is town so that's a bad idea. I'm not sure what to make of TTH's self-voting and vengeful claim.

[Anatole Kuragin]

Is this where I say LAL?

If you want to be as awful as the person you replaced, sure.

[Anatole Kuragin]

I'm taking a break from this game. The obvious manipulation is starting to piss me off. Why can't people step back, see the big picture, and see how and where all of the votes are being manipulated? Nope, we're gonna mislynch. Town majority almost always does that. And then I'm gonna tell you I told you so, and impart some well-deserved condescension towards those who rammed through a bad lynch.

I'll be back Day 2, unless someone explodes.

Can you give me current reads besides that you want to lynch BBT and TTH?

[Anatole Kuragin]

If we're lynching any claimed PRs, it's boonskies. BBT had no reason to ALSO claim mason if he was scum at the time he did.

[Anatole Kuragin]

Is this where I say LAL?

If you want to be as awful as the person you replaced, sure.

Just a joke AK, I think this game needs a few more of them.

sorry, you're right

[Anatole Kuragin]

I'm taking a break from this game. The obvious manipulation is starting to piss me off. Why can't people step back, see the big picture, and see how and where all of the votes are being manipulated? Nope, we're gonna mislynch. Town majority almost always does that. And then I'm gonna tell you I told you so, and impart some well-deserved condescension towards those who rammed through a bad lynch.

I'll be back Day 2, unless someone explodes.

Can you give me current reads besides that you want to lynch BBT and TTH?

I can't because I can't reread all 2,400+ posts in this timeframe and spit out accurate reads. ADD doesn't work that that. We struggle to remember things. We work best when we focus on particular things, one at a time. I've reread this thread many times, but I cannot remember every single post and interaction without breaking something upstairs. This game is just a tater tot on my plate, too.

I know, I have ADD as well.

I'm trying to help you work through reasons why those lynches may have dissipated that could explain why a townie (let's say BBT) wasn't hammered. Compare your scumreads to the people who were already committed to wagons or something. I'm like 80% sure BBT is telling the truth, his actions don't add up for scum.

[Anatole Kuragin]

but tracker is probably the one role he could have that I would believe in the slightest. I'm inclined to give it a day and see what the "result" is.

I don't see a tracker claim being true with what else we've had claimed and some of my own speculation that I don't think it's pro-town to analyze in thread.

What?

You know more claims have been made since I said that right?