Open 585: Jungle Republic (ended)

[pisskop]

Hi all.
I've read the past few pages, going to read all of D2 now/after class.

[pisskop]

Hi all.
I've read the past few pages, going to read all of D2 now/after class.

You should start from day 1.

Hi!

I can see why I should. Its a lot of 'he said she said'. I'm going to skim about from the start, taking the numbers of posts that look notable.
So far, I gather you guys know and like each other, and that a couple assumptions were made based on forum joindates.

Here are my collected thoughts, scribbled in the order they came. My eyes glazed over ~page 15, but I read most of D2 prior to starting D1.
Note my vote will currently stay on Ari.

Farside

Farside's 161 mirror's my exact reads up until that point. Her later posts are also gold in retrospect, Which conflicts, because I read her as scummy based on D2 alone . . . She seems town.

Lyserg

I'm not sure if I dislike Lyserg for his

'bubbling'

expressive nature or a mild scumread I get from him. Scumreading Lyserg based on early D2 and rvs. On my other forum I would townread 229 and 248, as well as post 286.

Metal

Lal's read on Metal in 163. I found 133 to be trash. Along with her vote on Orc after calling out his 'vaguishness' (Which I don't see at all. He's brief and atp I wanted more from him, but he had a very refined approach I approve of) an vote on Metal makes me read Metal in a bad way, considering his content up to then was infinitely approaching zero.
294 is bad, for more reasons than not wanting to finger your irl friend.

West

I scumread West early D2, but then sympathized with him later on wrt Acrynon.
Unsure of him in early D1. 168 was positive. 190 makes West unlikely to be wolfy.

Ari

Weak scum read on him early game. Not for the RVS stuff, but after that. His best response seems to be

lurking

waiting. He's not wolfie, but I like him for mafia.
191 was all too happy to get the focus off himself; a newbtown response to pressure and he isn't new to mafia by the accounts I've read.
196 is bad upon reflection of Ginko's 193. And 199 is Ari trying to seperat Orc and Acryon pretty hard.
My first response to 252 is to reel back and double take. what is this?

Spoiler: 252

I think I was just trying to take credit for something I hadn't done because I felt dumb for not realizing in the moment that he was going for reactions. Also, I mean, someone had to vote for him. I'm not wrong when I said that. I was just trying not to feel as dumb about it. #RealTalks

Ari needs to die, as far as I'm concerned. Just because Lal tried to lynch him means nothing.

Ginko

Slight scumminess makes me distrust them, but seems genuinely discouraged in their posts. Null as off page 9.
193 is nice. He doesn't envision the distrust 2 wolves 1 mafia would have of one another, or vice versa.

Orc

Some positives, albeit those are from his personality. Considering him potentially associated with Ari.

Vyse

Spoiler: Dis you really spend hours on this game?

So, I've spent several hours trying to sort through this game

I don't think so, because I've put in less than two thus far.
Early posting was slightly townish. not to much really for or against him, but maybe that's a sign in in of itself.

Prawn

Content lacking in general in D1. Found his playstyle consistent with my expectations of a town-him around the time of his vote on this slot in 351 but I don't like the lack of content with which to compare him to in the future. Null town.



<is there a linebreak code for the forum?>

Thoughts on how to hunt scumwolfs.

We shouldn't ignore the wolf per se, we need to stop the attrition he'll bring. But we need to focus on scum. There are 3 of them, and should be easier to find.

I think it will be important to note that scum will be hunting wolf and the wolf scum. So the answer is in their defense, and reactions to critics.

AFA Lal. Post 331 looks like desperation, and even though I don't have a use for it atm I want it noted for my own references.

[pisskop]

Edit: Lyserg is more town than scum, I didn't like his postings up until page 7 or 8.

[pisskop]

Orc
Some positives, albeit those are from his personality. Considering him potentially associated with Ari.

?

wrt the association.

Spoiler: Post 191 from Ari

Now to address all those other things I've been ignoring. Let's see, where to start... (Though pg 5 realistically, since I'm fairly certain that's where I left off on shit)

This is going back a bit, but

@Ocrinus

, I wasn't trying to say that I say you were reaction testing at the time. I meant to say that in retrospect I realized what you had done. I still don't get why I was quite so on the spot for reacting, but oh well. Also, I realize this sounds "backpedal-y" and really considered just not addressing it, but I wanted to clear that up.
Also, I'd love to dance, I'm just not always at the right ball...

Why did you ask me to look specifically into Ginko and Lyserg? Other people said things, and people like Orc said quite a bit, but for some reason you mentioned those two specifically.
And then you say:

Ginko and Lyserg are alright in my books thus far.

Why do you want me to specifically look at the two people you think are fine? This isn’t normal town behavior in my experience. If you were to ask me to look into someone, normally it would make sense for it to be someone you suspected.
VOTE: Aristophanes

I'm fairly certain that when I asked you to look at these two Ocrinus was still in RVS and it had basically been just myself, Ginko, and Lyserg talking. I may have had a town-vibe from them, but I definitely wanted a second opinion, especially since, as I said, noone was talking much yet. You never did give me an answer in that post either, btw, so why did you deflect my question back at me rather than give a read??

@Ginko (Cheet)

, I almost unvoted Ocrinus in that last big post I made. Totally forgot to tbh. I think you can claim this bet. Also, I remember most of our meeting-up. It was a fun time! I have no clue if there was something significant I was supposed to remember though...

@Metal

, I don't get the whole "Ocrinus and Acryon are probably on the same team" thing. Please expand upon it?? Also, when was I sloppy other than that one time I misplaced some text in my quotes? How is this sloppiness scummy? Also, all of your "but I'm being careful because I wanna live" rhetoric is bull. Seems like scum actively realizing the scumminess in his safer play and trying to fluff it off as being in town's best interest.

@Farside

, Welcome! Also, with this post, do you still find me scummy? I believe I addressed most of your points, just at other people here. Any updated thoughts?

If you already knew it was likely commonplace, why go to the lengths of indirectly asking in such a weird way? Why not just directly ask? Like, walk me through your intentions there.
-Cheetory6

I mean, I've never been big on quickwagons, especially on D1. I now you had that happen to you once, but that doesn't mean I can take it at face value. Also just plain asking is boring! Wouldn't have been much of a conversation if I had've done it that way, now would it have?

I'll be willing to explore his lynch should Ari flip scum.

wrt me liking his posting style is a matter of preference. He has a neat style of play
Very to the point yet snarky and passive-assertive. Some may see it as scummy or dodgy or odd, but I find it to be practiced and the result of minimizing meta while keeping a certain attitude.

[pisskop]

dah. he's dead. I said my eyes glazed.

[pisskop]

After sifting through Acryon ISO I'm basically where I'm okay with his lynch. His read on West seemed to randomly fluctuate for no reason in an inconsistent way that I found kind of weird and my gut keeps pinging at small things in his posts.

Probably just going to ignore part in pisskop's last post about orci because seems very probable to be a faketownslip and I don't want to think about that bullshit. q.q

It hurts me to think that you would flush away 2 hours of my time

and

ignore my posts selectively ;-;

Scumreading Lyserg based on early D2 and rvs.

Edit: Lyserg is more town than scum, I didn't like his postings up until page 7 or 8.

You also said that you didn't like his early D2 stuff? Can you elaborate on that and why you didn't mention that again/what made you change your mind based on D1 stuff?

I stopped taking D2 noted when it became apparent that he/she said wasn't progressing the game. I'll read the rest of D1 and reread D2, and get back to you.

On my other forum I would townread 229 and 248, as well as post 286.

Tell me words that make sense about this.

I need to ISO Aristo as well because I saw some things before replacing that made him feel shitty about him and if I have time tonight I'll probably also look at West/Metal and see what's going on there.

The other forum emphasizes detail, rigid adherence to 'optimal play' or 'protocol', and

emotional

'expressive reading'. RVS is seen as almost as scummy as overposting, and the two most common types of posters are 'introverted engineers' and 'progressive anime lovers'; to give you an idea of the forum population. As a psychology student who leans right, I fit into neither group.


Anywho, direct and almost confrontational-but-not-impolite posts are a good sign that somebody is not trying to push an agenda.
229
. 'Yo, lemme see your scumreads, and also compare the effects of their lynch to xx player's lynch.' is an example of a hunting player. It asks a clear question that implies a coherent and traceable line of thought.

Again, asking detailed and inquisitive questions in 248 implies that Lyserg wants all the relavent data before moving forward. That he 'quickposted' is a nice sign too, but admittedly that's detailed for a 'quickpost'.

And, in 286 Lyserg gives the exact same read. Contentfull reads and thoughtful posting. And even uses spoilers to reduce individual post length, a sign that the poster isn't trying to become the center of the game.

. I specified 'my other forum' because this forum's meta is different, and I still get a nagging feeling about him. And frankly, I'd trust Farside coupled with my gut; if she says she suspects him, and I get pinged I'll trust her.

[pisskop]

459 makes me wonder about something. Who was calling Orci a 'safe kill?' No.
Orci

would

have been a safe kill, had it not been for his replacing out. Orci was killed because he was getting new eyes.

[pisskop]

dah. he's dead. I said my eyes glazed.

What? You didn't know Orc was dead during the entire time you made that readslist? Then why do you refer to him in the past tense here?

Metal
Lal's read on Metal in 163. I found 133 to be trash. Along with her vote on Orc after calling out his 'vaguishness' (Which I don't see at all. He's brief and atp I wanted more from him, but he had a very refined approach I approve of) an vote on Metal makes me read Metal in a bad way, considering his content up to then was infinitely approaching zero.

I'll ask you to reread and consider your tenses. Those are all examples of either referring to his past actions or considering him in the present tense.

[pisskop]

ATP = At that point. At whatever post number I was on.

- - - - -

Spoiler: Notes for D2

Continuing my notes:

they figured out Ari and I are scum buddies , no but seriously if Ari was going for a reaction vote his vote could really only be on me since I was the latest person to vote for him and his reasoning was I jumped on a bandwagon.

Why are you defending Ari? Why are you defending Ari's scumread on you? Why are you using reasoning that doesn't exist anywhere in Ari's ISO? Why are you even answering this question? What the ACTUAL FUCK is this?

This made me happy.

375 is crap, right there in the first paragraph. 'I feel like West is saying good things, even when I disagree with them. But I'm totally going to set up a push for later.'

390 I can see where Farside gets the wolfy read on Vyse in this section of posting. After others express doubt at the Lalwagon he mildly suggests there's overreaction to her newb mistakes. In addition to his 'thread walk'.

425=Prawnhammer I like that, says decent things for him. doesn't make him not a potential mafia candidate, but speaks for his willingness to act in positions of scrutiny.
And 434, although lessso. I think 'm comfortable reading West as town.

- - - - -D1 Ends- - - - -

459 makes me wonder about something. Who was calling Orci a 'safe kill?' No.
Orci

would

have been a safe kill, had it not been for his replacing out. Orci was killed because he was getting new eyes. Which makes me think the wolfy is calculating.
459 makes me think Ginko is scumz, as the only one hypothesizing on it.

473 noted.

484 Ginko-Farside interaction is the source of my initial bad feels about Farside. In light of Ginko's positioning, I feel the other way. 490 is backpedaling backpedal.

502 Is crap. Its pointing out the stigma of poor play, and then asking you not to hang him for his scumminess. As a player prone to making rash moves I'm well aware of the effects of poor play, and well aware that rolling into a ball and bitching about you lot isn't the solution.

507 is Lyserg fishing for permission to push.

Somone talk at me more about this, give me a second opinion of his thoughts on me or something, @farside/Young/Ginko/whoever, because this is making me all OMGUS-y...

510 I remember the first time around was pretty bad, since it was naked postulation. Its not quite as bad the second time, but its still iffy. Nothing within it goes towards content, and is pointless. Considering that there is a motivation for everything, I can only assume that the fluff posted there is to make him look more townish.

516 is noted. Ari-Ginko? I don't know . . .

531 is a Lyserg post I like more. He's looking, not presuming, and is very clear about his thoughts. 536 continues that, even if I disagree with a few points; I can see his thoughts.

~560 is when Acryon fell apart a bit. He seems to hold his cards close to his chest in all the games I've observed him in/with.

575 Its got the same transparent feel as other posts made, but he's pushing one point three separate times. I read irritation there too. Still asking other's to provide his work and form his opinions, though.

577 Metal lurking his was to victory, ignoring questions.

591 Asks who TTH is. Its explaining his own faults and again reads as all too happy to be off the noose. In general the further into the post we get the worse it sounds.

[pisskop]

Spoiler: caught up

597 is crap, and waters down any Lyserg/metal team a tad. But, there isn't enough content from Metal to say anything from it that isn't wifom.

616 Ginko replaces.

633 Jordan replaces Ginko.

648 mixed feelings. I don't find it 'bad', but it lacks many redeeming features.

654 I'm bothered by what he calls 'a quiet day', considering his post length has been increases as the game progresses.

674 Who is Lyserg trying to justify his vote to?

719 Ari's best response of lurking was broken by an emotional appeal. He's not even trying, just flying under the radar.

Spoiler: @Cheetory

It hurts me to think that you would flush away 2 hours of my time and ignore my posts selectively ;-;

I'm ignoring part about orci specifically because I don't want to hurt myself thinking over the WIFOM over whether you tried to fake a towntell.

Aye.

I specified 'my other forum' because this forum's meta is different, and I still get a nagging feeling about him. And frankly, I'd trust Farside coupled with my gut; if she says she suspects him, and I get pinged I'll trust her.

Are you essentially saying that logically you think Lyserg is town, but your gut disagrees?

No, I'm saying I have my doubts about him being town due to his deviancies from both the meta from this forum and my own forum. He's got qualities I see as scummy but may just be innate. For instance, he continues to ask others to form his opinions, and occasionally it looks like he is asking for permission to push.

425=Prawnhammer I like that, says decent things for him. doesn't make him not a potential mafia candidate, but speaks for his willingness to act in positions of scrutiny.
And 434, although lessso. I think 'm comfortable reading West as town.

Why the difference in opinion between prawn and West for relatively similar things? West is town for a super late non-hammer, but Prawn is possibly still scum?

No again. To only look at one segment of one post is to take it out of context. West is town because he has been playing all game, and although I had varying opinions about his posts he continued to make them all day. I find his responses to the situations to ultimately match my expectations of his playstyle. Prawn's plastyle is specifically less contentfull, and judging him as town for making a move to hammer is ridiculous.
I don't find Prawn scummy; I just don't read him as town. nor will I make an absolute opinion on him based upon the content provided thus far.

459 makes me think Ginko is scumz, as the only one hypothesizing on it.

Warned Johnny that people were going to take cheap shots at us if he did NKA. Zzzz.

It feels like you're just arbitrarily saying some things without explaining them in detail. Like, just saying things like "noted" means absolutely nothing to anyone but you, so why say just that in the thread?

Worst example of this is here:

Asks who TTH is.

Why is this notable? Are you calling Ari scummy for saying this or what?

'cheap shots'. I don't see it that way; I analyzed the NK. And I determined that it wasn't 'safe'. 'pointless', or otherwise 'random'. Scum had a definite reason for it; to prevent a new pair of eyes from reading. The dismissive nature of it was what I read as scummier.

AFA my notes. They are exactly that; unpolished notes that may or may not be pertinent.

[pisskop]

Scum had a definite reason for it; to prevent a new pair of eyes from reading. The dismissive nature of it was what I read as scummier.

I wouldn't have guessed that was your train of process from what you said. Zzzz.
I'm pretty sure Johnny was analyzing the nightkill from the perspective of what he would do as wolf. Pretty typical to make a kill that can't really give much information on anyone. Not really sure how he was being 'dismissive'?

You didn't answer this btw:

Why is this notable? Are you calling Ari scummy for saying this or what?

I was analyzing the NK from what I would do as a wolf, and I made a note. I won't be posting my notes every time I discuss a topic.

It was noteable because it was a point of reference for later. This particular mark indicates that he did not read around the beginning of the D2. Post 450 and 451 are square at the top of page 19, and the one before it details his replacement.
Ari did not read, forgot in the moment, or 'faked' it. I think he didn't read.
It doesn't make him scum; nor is it particularly alignment indicative by itself. But it paints a picture of his playstyle and personality.

[pisskop]

From my pov things just seem odd.
I'm sticking with metal but I'd vote ari again.

Would you learn more from a Metal lynch?

[pisskop]

Pisskop, please can you delve more into what's wrong with post 591?
<snip>
@Pisskop: I know this seems like an unnecessary question, but did you ever play with someone named Nettenette?

I'm entirely confused why you are asking about my opinion/clarification of relatively unimportant datum instead of the collection of scummy things I've pointed out. We've covered why I even noted your response to TTH.

Spoiler: 591

-I've discussed your questioning TTH about as far as I care to, since Cheetory is correct that it

isn't

alignment indicative.

- your read on Metal is 'I can't remember (or be asked to look) for the original bad feels I have about him. I'm too busy trying to be vague.'

-You use your apparent 'derpiness' to explain away your play, and town or scum you don't make any attempt to try to fix it? I left this site because I was a very 'derpy' player, and I didn't come back until I felt I could measure myself as competent. You are using your bad play to excuse your potential scum play, and in theory as well as my personal life I don't like people using incompetence as an excuse for their dodgy behavior. There is ignorance and there is negligence; I don't believe its all explained by poor player skills.

- Frankly, your response to Prawn was either distancing or simply weakly asked questions. I just checked and Prawn has made zero attempt to even acknowledge their existence. Have you? <checks> Nope. You even respond in 721 with 'Tainted Love I think?'
. . .

You're joking with him instead of asking him to respond to him? how serious were those questions then?

You don't have to be all business, but you make no attempt to confront his lurkish nature or point out your outstanding questions.

-The response you gave to Vyse is actually considered positive by me. You asked why he was making such abstract speculation. TTY 'had a good reputation'? Terribad.
I also see Vyse had called Ginko's speculation 'poor' in 542 Interesting. Although nothing strong one way or another, reading up on Ginko/Cheet/vyse ISO.

-You are flying under the radar by not posting anything of content. You are reacting to the game, not moving to further it. If Lyserg stopped asking you questions I wonder if you'd even post at all?

AFA me and Orci. I never claimed that it meant nothing. I never tried to explain it away. It was an error, and I can't fault anyone for ignoring it. Why is it so important to harp upon?

---

I found out how to make lines! They just are so faint as to limit their use.

From my pov things just seem odd.
I'm sticking with metal but I'd vote ari again.

Where did this come from? What is making me a viable lynch to you?

Why weren't you asking questions like this before. You literally had all game to do so, but it only occurred to you just now that Farside thinks you are scummy?

Spoiler: Farside has had you hovering over the round file for some time

Why?

Lyse: I expect derpy during rvs, but as I said day 1 about ari the derpy didn't match up. Example he says he was joking about something, but then says it again seriously. That joke looks less jokey.

Also ari needs to come back and start giving scum reads

Edit: Lyserg is more town than scum, I didn't like his postings up until page 7 or 8.

I was town reading the slot but his day 2 play is very questionable to me.
As I said his metal vote and then unvote and reasoning doesn't match up.

I'm starting to think metal/ari/lyse scum team
Thinking vsye/yyr as wolf.

How about your reads thus far, Ari; on everyone? I'm glad you are scumreading the people who scumread you but that's not really inspiring confidence in you.

[pisskop]

Lyserg

This is actually pretty impressive if its from a phone. This is a phonewall, no small feat of effort.

I got sick and only phone is available to post and have to wake up early again, sorry if I missed stuff and whatever.
Gonna default to Metal lynch if Acryon wagon dies, not opposed to Ari lynch.

I think Metal's hoping we go for the more active players for the lynch, and I'm actually thinking he's a better lynch because Ari is still putting out posts, but Metal is dead weight.

@Pisskop: Think you missed my questions. Me perception of Prawns general play started to become somewhat similar to my perception of Lal so i wanted townPrown meta to compare. Stuff about asking permission: That was me turning on other players to help me account for what I think was me omgusing and/or playstyle clashing over acryons read on me, i didnt really see it as fair characterization of my general play but i felt too biased to make the misrep call without outsiders input, there were specific reasons to ask the specific people i mentioned there, ask me again if thats really important to you for some reason; because no one cared to address that im chalking that up to internal biases. The lurking thing had similar playstyle clash related reasons, the development of that point and that it was the one thing he emphazised on some post (one that said something about lurking 101) made me feel worse about it and discard the idea that my feelings towarda that were pure bias. Not sure i get your remarks on 510, that was an answer to something farside asked.

510 seemed to lack a point. Though I see she did, I suppose I was expecting it to lead somewhere based on the length of it.
'Think you missed my questions' - I'm not sure if you meant directed at me from you or what.

Someone go iso Ari and tell me if this anti NKA position existed at any point prior.

Like, for what it's worth, I'm not so sure that the NK was directed at Orc. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I gather TTH has a fairly positive sitewide reputation, and I know from playing with her that she a fairly decent player. This would indicate a veteran, not a D2er.

I also don't like Ginko's focus on the NK. It feels like he's setting up a narrative. I kinda want the Seer to look into him tonight.

More in a few hours.

Vyse, what is the point of this kind of speculation? You are, in doing this, setting up your own narrative.
Also, if this means you're assuming the other Warewolf is from this site, why look into Ginko? Seer can only see WW vs Non-WW. This makes no sense to me.
Who from this site do you think would be Lal's buddy and why?

This is his only mention of it, post 591.



As mentioned above, I think Metal is a better lynch today, because he isn't putting out any content. His flip will also influence my reads.

vote: Metal

[pisskop]

I did not imply that Metal is advocating the lynch of more active players. Rather, I feel that Metal is content to put in just enough effort to avoid his own lynch. It is true that other players could be called lurkers or had periods of inactivity, but Metal specifically reads as lurker scum to me, and feels as if he's showing up to avoid his lynch, not provide content or raise a point.

. AFA me preferring his lynch over Ari. It is some policy. It's more than Lynch the Lurker; however. If it comes down to it, I would rather lynch somebody who is scummy and doesn't post often and doesn't provide much original material. A common tactic, especially on MS, is to post just often enough to not get prodded or lynched. Especially in known setups (as opposed to unknown or non-standard setups with roles like war-vets, PGOs, or Aliens) Lurking is poor.

Ari is an acceptable lynch, but I want to lynch Metal to confirm his role. If he flips scum we can examine his interactions, iron you out, and I can reexamine Cheetory.
I don't envison a wolfy flip from him, but that's be sweet too, to eliminate the NK faction. Ari is even less likely to be the werewolf, and his wagons seemed much more wifomy; sorting out the more concrete flip first is my preference. I want to learn as much from the slightly more difficult lynch.

[pisskop]

Ummm. Hi, good moring, why are we running the clock down?
Literally any lynch is better than no lynch. With 3 scumz it only takes 2 mislynches here. Metal is surefire scum here.

[pisskop]

AFA a town Metal.

In the unlikely event he is town, That would make me examine his antagonizers. Im beginning to doubt you and Metal share a team, but you havent buddied him in any conspicuous manner, so I suppose that means little right now.
Im concerned Prawn is trying to kill my slot, but I think he may just be following his own investigation through.

[pisskop]

Ive given the game some thought wrt the lone werewolf


That role is an SK now.

Theyll need to win through the long game. Once mafia reach parity they can lynch whoever they want, just about. And werewolfy is the only target left for them then. Ergo, werewolf should kill scum tonight. It helps him. And helps town.

[pisskop]

I have a list on my computer. On phone @ gym right now

[pisskop]

thakyakindly, competent werewolf. A good kill for us and an excellent for you.


. Farside, why is this game "odd'?

[pisskop]

vote: Ari

Are not too many ways to interpret Young's posts.

[pisskop]

Actually, it did occur to me that he was trying to specifically trying to lump to together Ari/Metal.

Assuming there was some kind of bus it would be either Ari or Metal. Or acryon, but Look at Metal's response come deadline. 'Sorry' Pisskop. That's a decent scumtell.

unvote

vote: Metal

[pisskop]

Metal

Why were you Sorry to vote me? Did you think you were hammering?

[pisskop]

Does scum Ari go to any great lengths to try to plea innocence as scums?

[pisskop]

He [Young slot] was lumping one scum into his scum teams/reads. Its ultimately a winning move for the scum.
. It let's the surviving scum get townred for suspecting the lynched one.

Considering the effort put into the game by both Metal-slot and Young-slot, all they had to do was declare their suspicion of the other and sheep the town. They lurk as much as possible and get to both stay under the radar while letting the more active players bicker and get to get some 'towncred' for having suspected their buddies.

For metal, his reads have been fairly superficial and his opinion of Gliffie was such that gliffie wasn't even mentioned until YYR was in, and it took him waffling until 592, and after that quite sparingly.

I'm thinking Metal is scums still, and would like to discuss werewolfies with the town. If we could decide on a werewolf canidate and lynch it, we could eliminate that whole thing. Still scummy, just not associated with other characters.

I agree that Vyse is a good place to start, especially considering YYR's demise.

[pisskop]

Hunh. Ok, Farisde, and we can lynch Metal if Ari flips town?
Do any of you players know if Ari is always this explanatory?

vote: Ari

@Ari

Farside is saying that YYR had a decision to make. As scum, he needed to place his vote. He scumread you, so it would be natural to vote you. Instead, he jumped onto Lal without adequate reason, despite you having more votes. Why would he go after the larger wagon? Likely because you were on his team, so killing you hurt himself.

[pisskop]

[quote]
Why would

n't

he go after the larger wagon? Likely because you were on his team, so killing you hurt himself.
[.quote]

[pisskop]

@Pisskop: Vyse is a decent wolf candidate; recall you making some small comment about it, but what are your (expanded) thoughts for Metal as possible wolf? (also, this is dumb, but when you say "He [Young slot]" you mean just Young or all three players that occupied the slot P= ?).

When I say [player]slot, I am refering to all its occupants as one entity, although I may mean one in particular, they are all the same role.
. Metal is not my top Werewolf choice.

My mind keeps inching over Farside as unlikely wolfy, because. Her reads are usually concise, and this game is no exception, but she seems to have too many scumreads. I implied that I find Cheetory suspicious and now he's 'invisible' to her. I think Farside is more than competent enough to avoid obvious scum-scum interactions, but Lal is not. Lal did not have any real connection with Farside, however, and Farside ate Lal. I don't see scumFarside being so quick to kill her partner for the Creds, especially in a multi-faction game where they started outnumbered.
.So I doubt it; its likely my paranoia.

Metal-Wolf is also somewhat unlikely. I'm not sure if you misinterpreted my vote on metal. I'd suspect Vyse and Cheetory before Metal as werewolf. Lemme look over Metal and see what I can dreg.

Spoiler: Lal-posts

Metalcyanide – Obviously scum, etc. In all seriousness, post 133 gave me a town vibe; his denials of accusations from earlier (i.e. waiting so long to post) seem genuine. He also wasn’t trying to overcompensate or protest too much with the denials, but was just stating the facts; this also leads me to a town read, as scum might try too hard or come up with weird reasoning to be duplicitous. At the same time, as West pointed out, posting reads isn’t necessarily going to get you lynched, and not having reads isn’t the same as being careful. You could have asked for info/clarification, etc. Also try harder to explain things instead of saying “sorry, hard to explain”. That doesn’t give us much to go off of.

-This weakens it too, imo. This seems to be Lal's attempts to appease Metal as much as the Town.

That began to sway me, and then when I saw a naked vote on Metal in response to Metal’s scummy read of him,

-This is super hard desperation or buddying.

---

And on Metal's side

Spoiler: Metal-Posting

-10 is RVS and cant read too much given the context, but given how many scum try to hide in plain sight . . .

Also, are the other people who voted for Ari after me (farside and lal) just looking for a quick lynch?

-meh. I could argue that he's including his buddy and another in his post, but the motivation isn't there, frankly.

Lalendra: Scum, the scummiest of scum, so scummy the scrubbing bubbles can't get rid of her. Okay but seriously, she is playing a very noob or very elaborate game (damn English major). I've read her posts several times am having trouble following her train of thought. She oddly defends me from Ari by voting for Ari. Justifies the vote more by pointing to West's reasons. Lal, has anything changed for you since Ari has answered your question? Who is your next scum read. My read on lal is noob town atm

-They both do that ribbing.

Metal has way too much Lal-references. I can't see it. I still see Metal as scummy, but not as the wolfy, as I've stated in 775.

[pisskop]

My wolf reads are pisskop or maybe west at this point.

hmm. How malleable you can be. Do you have some evidence?

[pisskop]

I find it interesting Ari hasn't tried claiming yet.

[pisskop]

Duh. nvm. There's not a whole lot to claim.

[pisskop]

I'm not sure if that's Freddy Mercury.
Who is that?

[pisskop]

What makes Farside Mafia? Do you have posts for that?

Also, Westwolf. I don't see Westwolf too well.

[pisskop]

Can you look over Lal and give me you top two candidate for wolf from her? I know we can flush out scum based on associations, but the wolf is competent and following a pattern . . .

[pisskop]

Both, if you don't mind.

I'm looking over her myself. If we could flush the wolf out now we could POE the Scums.

unvote

Actually I agree.^^

[pisskop]

Fuck all that noise.

I think Ginko is the Wolfie. He coaches Lal and consistently uses her wagon as a basis for his scumhunting. I'm close to shutting down for the night, but Look over his ISO and focus specifically on the searchword "lal".

vote: Cheetory

Compare his 180 from post 407 to 414 specifically. Cheetory wasn 't bussing her, but taking the middle ground right up until critical mass.

Spoiler: 407

I'm not really sure I understand your point.
I don't think you intentionally flipped your read on Vyse or ignored West?
The former point reads as scum poorly keeping track of their reads and the latter just reads as weird. Do you want me to insert speculation into why I think the latter could be coming from scumPOV? Because I have thoughts, they're just really paranoid and just stopping at weird makes me sound less like I'm crazy than when I elaborate on my entire thoughts on every action people have q.q

No, which is why I noted it as such that some would say it's scummy, but even then it still just isn't the tipping point; I don't think anyone things it's scummy enough to be that. To me, it felt more like she saw farside's post saying she felt Lal was scummy, and this caused Lal to quickly move forward with the Ari wagon rather than screw around with another direction. Which would also explain the contradiction in her play here vs what she chastised Lyserg for.

I was reading back and thought for a second that I'd found something super scummy in this interaction involving timestamps but I feel like I just got caught up in nothing.

I voted for Ari in vote 171 and didn’t address farside’s points until 172. Those were two separate posts because I was on my phone, catching up on a lot and posting as I read, not easy to do multiquotes and such that way. Chronologically my vote for Ari came before I even read farside's post.

^Does the following explanation not seem plausible to you? She does respond to farside in a second post. [initially had thought that the timing between 171 and 172 was too close for her to have not read farside's post and then make a response, but it feels super subjective after thinking about it so meh]

-Cheet

Spoiler: 409

Of course it seems plausible or I don't think she wouldn't have said it, but I don't believe that it's true.

Okay.. so is there a better point I should be following on the Lalendra wagon? Or can you give me something that should convince me that it's not true?

I mean this is sort of what I'm asking. Do you really think it's more likely the former than the latter?

I was saying that I believe the flipflop on the read seems like a scum-mistake moreso than a town-mistake and that the lack of mention of West was moreso weird than blatantly scummy and I don't really understand.
Trying to piece together you and West as a scumteam didn't really make much sense to me because I didn't think West would just outright dismiss my case on you if you're scummates and the other thought of you and Vyse being scum also didn't really make much sense given how you guys are interacting.
For the flipflop it just makes more sense to me that someone who's scum and has a few real scumreads/a few exaggerated scumreads would be more likely to forget who their lesser scumreads are because they're forced.

Spoiler: 414

I think my scenario is more likely. It's weird to me that you would just take it at face value.

I'm not taking it at face value. Like, it's more likely to be scum-motivated than town-motivated, I'll give you that, but I'm just not seeing the hardcore lynchlust people are having for Lalendra, because the case on her reads as a bunch of little points adding up to an okay case.

I think town make mistakes and confuse things far more often than scum. I thought that was a pretty accepted though, which is why hunting for scum-slips is so bad.

It's less that it's a mistake and more that it's the second time you've done something that strikes me as forcing a scumread on someone. I would have been much more inclined to believe your read on Vyse had just changed from Point A to Point B, but it strikes me as super off that you just say that you more or less just forgot that he was leaning scum. Like, it just reads to me like you don't want people to think that the read itself was fake, but that you were earnestly reading Vyse's interactions as being town. Given that acryon wagon is becoming less likely of a thing I'll make it homework to read game you linked.

P-Edit:
Oh good. Acryon wagon is gone q.q.

@farside

, I did in #150 but it was pretty bare bones. I'm reading West as scummy.
Lalendra is probably ranking next highest on my scumdar, it's just quite a bit of a gap between West/Acryon and her :/
Have some other weak suspicions but they're mostly just based on paranoia over inactivity.
I'd personally rather not compromise on lynches in a setup like this.

Can I ask the rest of you to look? Even the scumies benefit from looking for the wolf, because, secret, I think the werewolf is specifically looking for the Seer via lurkers. that include a couple of likely scums.

[pisskop]

Fuck all that noise.

I think Ginko is the Wolfie. He coaches Lal and consistently uses her wagon as a basis for his scumhunting. I'm close to shutting down for the night, but Look over his ISO and focus specifically on the searchword "lal".

vote: Cheetory

Compare his 180 from post 407 to 414 specifically. Cheetory wasn 't bussing her, but taking the middle ground right up until critical mass.

Spoiler: 407

I'm not really sure I understand your point.
I don't think you intentionally flipped your read on Vyse or ignored West?
The former point reads as scum poorly keeping track of their reads and the latter just reads as weird. Do you want me to insert speculation into why I think the latter could be coming from scumPOV? Because I have thoughts, they're just really paranoid and just stopping at weird makes me sound less like I'm crazy than when I elaborate on my entire thoughts on every action people have q.q

No, which is why I noted it as such that some would say it's scummy, but even then it still just isn't the tipping point; I don't think anyone things it's scummy enough to be that. To me, it felt more like she saw farside's post saying she felt Lal was scummy, and this caused Lal to quickly move forward with the Ari wagon rather than screw around with another direction. Which would also explain the contradiction in her play here vs what she chastised Lyserg for.

I was reading back and thought for a second that I'd found something super scummy in this interaction involving timestamps but I feel like I just got caught up in nothing.

I voted for Ari in vote 171 and didn’t address farside’s points until 172. Those were two separate posts because I was on my phone, catching up on a lot and posting as I read, not easy to do multiquotes and such that way. Chronologically my vote for Ari came before I even read farside's post.

^Does the following explanation not seem plausible to you? She does respond to farside in a second post. [initially had thought that the timing between 171 and 172 was too close for her to have not read farside's post and then make a response, but it feels super subjective after thinking about it so meh]

-Cheet

Spoiler: 409

Of course it seems plausible or I don't think she wouldn't have said it, but I don't believe that it's true.

Okay.. so is there a better point I should be following on the Lalendra wagon? Or can you give me something that should convince me that it's not true?

I mean this is sort of what I'm asking. Do you really think it's more likely the former than the latter?

I was saying that I believe the flipflop on the read seems like a scum-mistake moreso than a town-mistake and that the lack of mention of West was moreso weird than blatantly scummy and I don't really understand.
Trying to piece together you and West as a scumteam didn't really make much sense to me because I didn't think West would just outright dismiss my case on you if you're scummates and the other thought of you and Vyse being scum also didn't really make much sense given how you guys are interacting.
For the flipflop it just makes more sense to me that someone who's scum and has a few real scumreads/a few exaggerated scumreads would be more likely to forget who their lesser scumreads are because they're forced.

Spoiler: 414

I think my scenario is more likely. It's weird to me that you would just take it at face value.

I'm not taking it at face value. Like, it's more likely to be scum-motivated than town-motivated, I'll give you that, but I'm just not seeing the hardcore lynchlust people are having for Lalendra, because the case on her reads as a bunch of little points adding up to an okay case.

I think town make mistakes and confuse things far more often than scum. I thought that was a pretty accepted though, which is why hunting for scum-slips is so bad.

It's less that it's a mistake and more that it's the second time you've done something that strikes me as forcing a scumread on someone. I would have been much more inclined to believe your read on Vyse had just changed from Point A to Point B, but it strikes me as super off that you just say that you more or less just forgot that he was leaning scum. Like, it just reads to me like you don't want people to think that the read itself was fake, but that you were earnestly reading Vyse's interactions as being town. Given that acryon wagon is becoming less likely of a thing I'll make it homework to read game you linked.

P-Edit:
Oh good. Acryon wagon is gone q.q.

@farside

, I did in #150 but it was pretty bare bones. I'm reading West as scummy.
Lalendra is probably ranking next highest on my scumdar, it's just quite a bit of a gap between West/Acryon and her :/
Have some other weak suspicions but they're mostly just based on paranoia over inactivity.
I'd personally rather not compromise on lynches in a setup like this.

Can I ask the rest of you to look? Even the scumies benefit from looking for the wolf, because, secret, I think the werewolf is specifically looking for the Seer via lurkers. that include a couple of likely scums.

[pisskop]

Lyserg. Im so confident in it Id make a sigbet. Cheetor is wolfe. Jordon was lurking, orci was lurking. Vyse is maybemafia. I liked him for wolfie but dont think he is scum.

[pisskop]

I had a moment. I had one in Italian Ice too.
It just clicked.

[pisskop]

Lyserg, I'm completing my compilation of their ISOs now.

@Metal,
Ginko wrote:
What's your general perception of Ari's towngame?
If you ignore me again I will cut you.

I guess this didn't further your wincon so you let it go, hunh?

[pisskop]

@ Lyserg

Coaching is the wrong word. He has guided her with questions and soft questions to others.

Let me run down them into one ISO of Ginko, Lal, and Cheetor

Spoiler: Rundown

163, Lal townreads Ginko, stating

Ginko – I’m with Gliffie, Hydras suck. Playing very aggressively, and I'm getting a townread from interactions so far. Solid reasoning and nothing sounds like circular logic or half-assed excuses.

164 is Lal jumping onto the work of Ginko in 81 - 99, where he wifomed Orci into a scumread. True story, go look.

269 is the brgining of the soft defending Lal, and 292 is what I meant by 'coaching'. He's guiding her with questions while soft-defending her.

<snip>

@Lyserg

, I'm kind of confused as to how you're arriving at a comfortable place with your vote on Lalendra when it seems to me like you're pretty unsure of your individual points about her in #286. Is it the culmination of a bunch of small things that's just making you feel like she's probably scum?
<snip>
Need to see a concise Lalendra case because my head got really fuzzy trying to parse most of what was going on there besides like one of farside's points on her somewhat resonating with me. Might summarize all the votes when I have some more time today and then see what I think about it.

-Cheetory6

Here in 292 is more soft-defending, as well as more sweet nothings into Lal's ear. He isn't like that with any other player.

ii) I'm pretty shrug with most of his play up until his 22nd post at which point he starts to focus really hard on Lalendra. This feels kinda inconsistent with his play prior in this game. He becomes very focused on asking Lalendra questions and making points as to why she's scummy, whereas he was kind of more disinterested in pushing for Aristophanes or asking him questions. I feel like there's a very distinct difference in playstyle being taken here and it doesn't even make much sense from a perspective of "I think that Aristophanes is less scummy than Lalendra", because his reasoning when he unvotes is that he wants to avoid a quickhammer.
Kind of gives me the impression that Ari or Lalendra might be a scummate of his [more likely Lalendra just from some other interactions] or that he might have been forcing his scumread on Aristophanes and felt uncomfortable pushing it.

Scumhunting from the Lal-wagon, as stated. More soft defending.

Will make an active effort to try and read the Lalendra wagon tomorrow.
-Cheetory6

What? What has he been doing the last hundred posts but getting more and more invested into Lal's wagon?

324 chainsaw into Acryon in defense of Lal. Again, nothing overt, but wholly cows look at him go!

@LALENDRA WAGON ANALYSIS:
i) Acryon's reasoning in his votepost:
-when she gives her read on acryon it only focuses on the stuff that he said during RVS
-that her read on Aristophanes escalated from her being slightly wary of him to something worth voting for just from him making a naked vote
-her putting Ari close to lynching range when she'd made a big deal out of Lyserg doing the same thing to a lesser degree before
-changing from Ari to Lalendra because he doesn't want a quickhammer

ii) Aristophanes's reasoning in his votepost:
-agrees with the escalating read on him based on the naked vote as being scummy
-that it feels opportunistic that Lalendra sheeped West's reasoning for voting him later
-that Lal was possibly third party hunting
-that West/Metal/Lal scumteam is likely

iii) orcinus's reasoning just before his votepost:
-that she's fencesitty

iv) farside's reasoning [in a non-vote post]:
-stating concern for mislynch
-using vague words when discussing a read on Aristophanes and then voting him for a naked vote
-her being against meta discussion
-flipping her read on farside based on her suspecting her

v) Lyserg's reasoning in his votepost:
[I could be totally wrong on some of these so lemme know if I'm wrong]
-a lack of questioning of things in this game vs her town game
-some of her questioning seems like posturing to try and either dismantle suspicion on her and to push a scumread on someone
-some of her points seem like too much of a stretch
-an opportunistic Ari vote

I'm not even sure what the motivation of this post is. Except to use it to push later. I put some spaces in between each player so its not a clusterbomb to read.

Acryon is scum who doesn't understand how someone can distrust 6 people because he's only hunting for a selection of the scum in this game.
Lalendra case is full of a lot of 'Lalendra is being weird' points and her doing things that people don't understand.
Someone make striking points that I can relate to on Lalendra or you should get on board this sexier wagon.

-Cheetory

Word up.

368, 383

i) I will fully admit that I'm being a little slow with reading Lalendra and I think it's moreso because I feel uninvested in the interactions with her and that's probably my fault for not getting involved and asking her questions.

Ya no, I'm done here. If you don't lynch that

scum

wolf I swear.

After he is gone we won't have any use for the night phase. We only need to construct a list of possible associations and lynch from that list.

[pisskop]

Farside, grab your rope and silver.

[pisskop]

[pisskop]

Lol I finally found my flail pic.
Its so perfect. The more damage it takes, the more it flails.

[pisskop]

So asking her to get an avatar [which I also asked someone else to do this game] and asking her a single question is coaching.
Yeah.
Fucking stretch a mile further.

Look! He's responding to points I didn't even make. dawwww.

[pisskop]

How am I not responding to a point you've made?

You are reponding to points I did not make, not 'not responding to my points'.

Let me go get my quote, which said nothing about Lal needing an avatar.

269 is the brgining of the soft defending Lal, and 292 is what I meant by 'coaching'. He's guiding her with questions while soft-defending her.

<snip>

@Lyserg

, I'm kind of confused as to how you're arriving at a comfortable place with your vote on Lalendra when it seems to me like you're pretty unsure of your individual points about her in #286. Is it the culmination of a bunch of small things that's just making you feel like she's probably scum?
<snip>
Need to see a concise Lalendra case because my head got really fuzzy trying to parse most of what was going on there besides like one of farside's points on her somewhat resonating with me. Might summarize all the votes when I have some more time today and then see what I think about it.

-Cheetory6

[pisskop]

I'm entirely confused why you are asking about my opinion/clarification of relatively unimportant datum instead of the collection of scummy things I've pointed out.

[pisskop]

Whatever, You're caught. Even if you aren;t lynched today the seer is going to look into you tonight.

[pisskop]

Ari's trying to be transparent. It started bothering me back in D2. Post 771. And it continued into today. And frankly I'm doubting your or Ari is scum, but we can come to that tomorrow. I don't think Ari has any influence left in the game, but his continued effort to provide what information he can is exactly what I would have done back when I first joined this site.

I still scumread Metal, but you must remember that since this is a 2scumteam game and he is a lurker he has every incentive to push for the werewolf lynch too. Frankly, I'm not concerned with your opinion of my arguing in this game, since it is neither representative of my play nor do you seem to possess the directness to push me upon it. I caught the wolf, I'm playing to my wincon, and you have admitted in your latest post Cheetor is definitely playing outside his comfort zone.

@Cheetor
Of course, nothing personal is meant by anything in this game. Any insults that have actually slighted you are applied within the context of this game only.

[pisskop]

I would still feel more comfortable with a lynch on Metal, Pisskop, or myself today.

Why, exactly?
Its one thing to be honest or whathaveyou; its quite another to potentially suicide yourself and play against your wincon. I your own words: what does lynching one of use do?

Pisskop, what led you to change focus so quickly on this? That, plus the level of snark, is disorientating.

Awesome vote. The snark is a bit thick, admittedly. I'm not going to dance in small circles when I'm so sure I'd actually bet money on it.

I saw something and decided to look into it. That turned up something I almost/had missed and then I started comparing people to Lal. Since I was also suspicious of Cheetory, I compared him to Lal together instead of alone. I searched for searchword 'lal' to identify her posts/references.

Specifiics may or may not have to wait until later.

[pisskop]

892 is addressing you and then putting an unrelated and unresolved quote up.

Ginko said that, and then failed to follow up on this threat. Indicating that it wasn't important. Its scummy; but unrelated to the other data presented on him.

In these posts:

@ Lyserg

all that noise.

I put in everything needed to put down the wolf.

Spoiler: Posts until 405

163, Lal townreads Ginko, stating

Ginko – I’m with Gliffie, Hydras suck. Playing very aggressively, and I'm getting a townread from interactions so far. Solid reasoning and nothing sounds like circular logic or half-assed excuses.

164 is Lal jumping onto the work of Ginko in 81 - 99, where he wifomed Orci into a scumread. True story, go look.

269 is the brgining of the soft defending Lal, and 292 is what I meant by 'coaching'. He's guiding her with questions while soft-defending her.

<snip>

@Lyserg

, I'm kind of confused as to how you're arriving at a comfortable place with your vote on Lalendra when it seems to me like you're pretty unsure of your individual points about her in #286. Is it the culmination of a bunch of small things that's just making you feel like she's probably scum?
<snip>
Need to see a concise Lalendra case because my head got really fuzzy trying to parse most of what was going on there besides like one of farside's points on her somewhat resonating with me. Might summarize all the votes when I have some more time today and then see what I think about it.

-Cheetory6

Here in 292 is more soft-defending, as well as more sweet nothings into Lal's ear. He isn't like that with any other player.

ii) I'm pretty shrug with most of his play up until his 22nd post at which point he starts to focus really hard on Lalendra. This feels kinda inconsistent with his play prior in this game. He becomes very focused on asking Lalendra questions and making points as to why she's scummy, whereas he was kind of more disinterested in pushing for Aristophanes or asking him questions. I feel like there's a very distinct difference in playstyle being taken here and it doesn't even make much sense from a perspective of "I think that Aristophanes is less scummy than Lalendra", because his reasoning when he unvotes is that he wants to avoid a quickhammer.
Kind of gives me the impression that Ari or Lalendra might be a scummate of his [more likely Lalendra just from some other interactions] or that he might have been forcing his scumread on Aristophanes and felt uncomfortable pushing it.

Scumhunting from the Lal-wagon, as stated. More soft defending.

Will make an active effort to try and read the Lalendra wagon tomorrow.
-Cheetory6

What? What has he been doing the last hundred posts but getting more and more invested into Lal's wagon?

324 chainsaw into Acryon in defense of Lal. Again, nothing overt, but wholly cows look at him go!

@LALENDRA WAGON ANALYSIS:
i) Acryon's reasoning in his votepost:
-when she gives her read on acryon it only focuses on the stuff that he said during RVS
-that her read on Aristophanes escalated from her being slightly wary of him to something worth voting for just from him making a naked vote
-her putting Ari close to lynching range when she'd made a big deal out of Lyserg doing the same thing to a lesser degree before
-changing from Ari to Lalendra because he doesn't want a quickhammer

ii) Aristophanes's reasoning in his votepost:
-agrees with the escalating read on him based on the naked vote as being scummy
-that it feels opportunistic that Lalendra sheeped West's reasoning for voting him later
-that Lal was possibly third party hunting
-that West/Metal/Lal scumteam is likely

iii) orcinus's reasoning just before his votepost:
-that she's fencesitty

iv) farside's reasoning [in a non-vote post]:
-stating concern for mislynch
-using vague words when discussing a read on Aristophanes and then voting him for a naked vote
-her being against meta discussion
-flipping her read on farside based on her suspecting her

v) Lyserg's reasoning in his votepost:
[I could be totally wrong on some of these so lemme know if I'm wrong]
-a lack of questioning of things in this game vs her town game
-some of her questioning seems like posturing to try and either dismantle suspicion on her and to push a scumread on someone
-some of her points seem like too much of a stretch
-an opportunistic Ari vote

I'm not even sure what the motivation of this post is. Except to use it to push later. I put some spaces in between each player so its not a clusterbomb to read.

Acryon is scum who doesn't understand how someone can distrust 6 people because he's only hunting for a selection of the scum in this game.
Lalendra case is full of a lot of 'Lalendra is being weird' points and her doing things that people don't understand.
Someone make striking points that I can relate to on Lalendra or you should get on board this sexier wagon.

-Cheetory

Word up.

368, 383

i) I will fully admit that I'm being a little slow with reading Lalendra and I think it's moreso because I feel uninvested in the interactions with her and that's probably my fault for not getting involved and asking her questions.

Compare his 180 from post 407 to 414 specifically. Cheetory wasn 't bussing her, but taking the middle ground right up until critical mass.

Spoiler: 407

I'm not really sure I understand your point.
I don't think you intentionally flipped your read on Vyse or ignored West?
The former point reads as scum poorly keeping track of their reads and the latter just reads as weird. Do you want me to insert speculation into why I think the latter could be coming from scumPOV? Because I have thoughts, they're just really paranoid and just stopping at weird makes me sound less like I'm crazy than when I elaborate on my entire thoughts on every action people have q.q

No, which is why I noted it as such that some would say it's scummy, but even then it still just isn't the tipping point; I don't think anyone things it's scummy enough to be that. To me, it felt more like she saw farside's post saying she felt Lal was scummy, and this caused Lal to quickly move forward with the Ari wagon rather than screw around with another direction. Which would also explain the contradiction in her play here vs what she chastised Lyserg for.

I was reading back and thought for a second that I'd found something super scummy in this interaction involving timestamps but I feel like I just got caught up in nothing.

I voted for Ari in vote 171 and didn’t address farside’s points until 172. Those were two separate posts because I was on my phone, catching up on a lot and posting as I read, not easy to do multiquotes and such that way. Chronologically my vote for Ari came before I even read farside's post.

^Does the following explanation not seem plausible to you? She does respond to farside in a second post. [initially had thought that the timing between 171 and 172 was too close for her to have not read farside's post and then make a response, but it feels super subjective after thinking about it so meh]

-Cheet

Spoiler: 409

Of course it seems plausible or I don't think she wouldn't have said it, but I don't believe that it's true.

Okay.. so is there a better point I should be following on the Lalendra wagon? Or can you give me something that should convince me that it's not true?

I mean this is sort of what I'm asking. Do you really think it's more likely the former than the latter?

I was saying that I believe the flipflop on the read seems like a scum-mistake moreso than a town-mistake and that the lack of mention of West was moreso weird than blatantly scummy and I don't really understand.
Trying to piece together you and West as a scumteam didn't really make much sense to me because I didn't think West would just outright dismiss my case on you if you're scummates and the other thought of you and Vyse being scum also didn't really make much sense given how you guys are interacting.
For the flipflop it just makes more sense to me that someone who's scum and has a few real scumreads/a few exaggerated scumreads would be more likely to forget who their lesser scumreads are because they're forced.

Spoiler: 414

I think my scenario is more likely. It's weird to me that you would just take it at face value.

I'm not taking it at face value. Like, it's more likely to be scum-motivated than town-motivated, I'll give you that, but I'm just not seeing the hardcore lynchlust people are having for Lalendra, because the case on her reads as a bunch of little points adding up to an okay case.

I think town make mistakes and confuse things far more often than scum. I thought that was a pretty accepted though, which is why hunting for scum-slips is so bad.

It's less that it's a mistake and more that it's the second time you've done something that strikes me as forcing a scumread on someone. I would have been much more inclined to believe your read on Vyse had just changed from Point A to Point B, but it strikes me as super off that you just say that you more or less just forgot that he was leaning scum. Like, it just reads to me like you don't want people to think that the read itself was fake, but that you were earnestly reading Vyse's interactions as being town. Given that acryon wagon is becoming less likely of a thing I'll make it homework to read game you linked.

P-Edit:
Oh good. Acryon wagon is gone q.q.

@farside

, I did in #150 but it was pretty bare bones. I'm reading West as scummy.
Lalendra is probably ranking next highest on my scumdar, it's just quite a bit of a gap between West/Acryon and her :/
Have some other weak suspicions but they're mostly just based on paranoia over inactivity.
I'd personally rather not compromise on lynches in a setup like this.

[pisskop]

You aren't as involved in many of the discussions as others. You have more posts than Prawn, but are less town.

[pisskop]

There is no slot that could foreseeably be my buddy; because I am neither scum nor wolf.

[pisskop]

Any thoughts on this?

As much as I appreciate you hunting for the associated scum, I'd appreciate your opinion of who can be the wolf.
. We'd have much longer to lynch to our heart's contents once we get them, and if the seer dies we'd be searching blind.

[pisskop]

Cheet and Far why didn't you guys vote for Pisskop?

Schoolstuff/fell asleep earlier than I thought I would. Zzzzz
Not sure why you're asking this question given that you weren't here either.

I'm not sure how somebody who can be as borderline rude as you with your aggression can pose as offended. I don't believe you were upset my push, rather you needed an excuse to back out and cool your head. I'm positive this is within your abilities.
. But, given that Metal

did

vote for me, this suggests you didn't read/retain that. AtE, in my opinion.

It's true that Gink used the Ari wagon for his scumread on Acryon and me, until he starts using the Lal wagon to go for Acryon and refuses to use the Ari wagon to analyze Lal

I don't really understand how it's unusual for me to be focused on my scumreads, especially on D1. Do you disagree that I generally tend to focus in on one or two players on day one?

By the time Lal came into the game, I was already somewhat focused on other players and felt disinterested in a lot of what she was saying and admittedly I skimmed for a while. Is that scummy?

Can understand why someone would think so, but I've done it in a lot of other games before and I have less time for mafia than I usually do.

YES, it is scummy. You didn't 'ignore' or skim her,

you used her wagon to push/scumread players

. The volume of material put into deflecting from her wagon is astounding. You responded to her, went out of your way keep the focus on her wagoners and off her.
You picked up 'scumreads from the Ari wagon. You didn't analyse the Ari wagon, not in any fashion like Lal's. As a three party game, scumteams are scumhunting.

164 is Lal jumping onto the work of Ginko in 81 - 99, where he wifomed Orci into a scumread. True story, go look.

Again, I don't see how her buddying my argument makes me likely to be her scummate.

By itself it proves nothing, and you as well as any competent player in the game knows that. Taken with the rest of the evidence and its evidence that the newish Lal taking shelter under her scumbuddy.

269 is the brgining of the soft defending Lal, and 292 is what I meant by 'coaching'. He's guiding her with questions while soft-defending her.

Is it really soft defending though? Like, you're acting like I was being subtle. I was not. I didn't want a Lalendra lynch vs Acryon/West lynch D1. I was pushing for who I thought was the best option for hitting scum while at the same time trying to engage people to either get them to move or get them to convince me that Lalendra was scum. Again, in 269, we defended Ari as well. Where's the acknowledgment that this isn't something that we were doing with just one person and one wagon? How is it not just consistent?

Spoiler: Youi just cannot keep one straight story wrt 292, can you?

So asking her to get an avatar [which I also asked someone else to do this game] and asking her a single question is coaching.

I asked her two questions in that post that you're referring to here. How am I guiding her with questions? How am I not responding to a point you've made?

I asked Lalendra this question and asked her to get an avatar in 292. How is this asking her questionSSSSSSSSSSS as in PLURAL as in more than one.
How is your point in 292 and the whole coaching thing not complete and total reachy bullshit that you're trying to justify in hindsight?

You're caught.

as well as more sweet nothings into Lal's ear. He isn't like that with any other player.

What're you saying here? What does this mean?

You are offering her what shelter you could.

What? What has he been doing the last hundred posts but getting more and more invested into Lal's wagon?

There's a difference between actively reading every engagement in a discussion and reading the tone of the engagement. Acryon's tone of engagement with Lal was incredibly different than it was with Aristophanes. I hadn't been actively reading and following all of the arguments for Lalendra being scum, partially because it was dense and also partially because from a distance I thought it was probably going to be a derpwagon and I like hunting on the side in general.

324 chainsaw into Acryon in defense of Lal. Again, nothing overt, but wholly cows look at him go!

I'm not really super familiar with how chainsaw argument works, but if I were scummates with Lalendra and my goal was to chainsaw, why would I be so blatant about how I'm relating it all back to Lalendra interactions? I honestly know I can't do much to defend against this point, but like I just feel like scum-me wouldn't do this. :/

You used Acryon's interactions with Lal to attack him. The very definition of a chainsaw. I'm saying you did it more subtly than some on this site, but if you feel you did it blatently than that should make the chainsaw all the more apparent.

I'm not even sure what the motivation of this post is. Except to use it to push later. I put some spaces in between each player so its not a clusterbomb to read.

Already responded to this.

Cheetory wasn 't bussing her, but taking the middle ground right up until critical mass.

If that's the narrative you inherently look for, you're going to see it. If you look at my play as "I really want a scumlynch and Lal isn't anywhere near my strongest scumread" then you're not going to see it. Don't really know what more to say here.

UNVOTE:
That OMGUS was bad on my part.
I think I let the timing of the push on me relative to the peak of the Aristo wagon bug me.
Valentines Day is busy for me.
My thoughts in this game are messy right now.
Gonna go not think about this game for a while.

We should still lynch it, frankly. I think he's a good actor. Mostly AtE, as far as I'm concerned. Lynch whomever you all please, but t the end of the day he is still going to kill at least one more of us.

[pisskop]

I may note be able to respond regularly or in-depth within the next day or two, what with the holiday and the snowstorm tonight.

[pisskop]

Sure.

We should be lynching from a collectivized wolf list, to assist the seer.

Cheetory and ABR/Vyse. then Metal

We all have incentive to rid ourselves of

cheetor

the wolf scum, to eliminate the NKer.
Well, some of us do, scumteam is always wifoming it up.

This isnt a 2faction game, this isnt Fire/Ice: lets stop treating it as such and kill from a collected list. We can reevaluate our positions each day
@Ari: you can find my arguement whatever you feel. Point out where I am overreaching, then. With barily a town majority, we all need to be decided.

[pisskop]

So. About that collected wolf list . . .

1) Cheet
2) ABR

Let's lynch from a list of likely wolves, so that we can systematically lynch associated couples for the mafia team.

---

@pisskop

, tell me what you make of ABR and farside.

ABR is a likely wolf, and would be my second choice to lynching you.
Metal is my third choice.
[/quote]

[pisskop]

Id ask for proof or evidence, but frankly this is as much as Ive ever seen you post im one sitting

I tried to look at a few of your completed games, but not happening via phone. Those that Dont know what ABR plays like please take a walk into his postings. As it sits Ill lynch him based on the past 5 posts alone.

[pisskop]

I dont think Ari is a wolf or Cheetor is mafia.

Id like to catch the wolf. That way we have a conftown seer and can systematicly lynch to victory wuthout the NK.

[pisskop]

I will take Metal of the three. All day

[pisskop]

Metal'll do.

vote: Metal

[pisskop]

What in Rampage's 5 posts there makes you think him lynch-worthy? I don't get that.

ABR is typically a very concise player who discloses almost no emotion and can even come across as 'cold'. Just go read a couple of posts from any completed game he was in.

[pisskop]

1004
Haha, I forgot about this. I should address this, though I didn't have much to say about it other than I didn't see how thinking that there was scum on each of the two leading wagons was bad or wrong. Didn't, and still don't, understand how it lead to a wolf read. Maybe pisskop can explain that to me for acryon.

Actually, now that i'm thinking about it, I'd love to hear pisskop's thoughts on the Metal/Acryon wolfWest theory
[/quote]
I make no claims to understand what Acryon was thinking. He plays a tight game, and often doesn't say what he thinks. Or that's my take on him. I'd compare him to a curious observer. When he's ready to make a push is often the only time he seems to take a stand.

Metal/Ari sounds improbable. Westwolf is a little unlikely. His interactions with Lal at first look like avoidance, but later on don't have the ring of buddies.

[pisskop]

That's a poor utility vote. You haven't explained what's scummy about me other than my insistence we find the last wolf who is the only stopping us from a guaranteed win.

[pisskop]

inteñt.

Its not who I want

[pisskop]

this is ABRs baby, right? lets keep that in mind

[pisskop]

I just wantthe wolf.

[pisskop]

Its not pressure without inteñt

But hes no less town to me than before.
. not even scapegoating . . .

[pisskop]

Lets all lynch ABR.

vote: ABR

doesnt take a scientist. Take back our town.

[pisskop]

wait wat? ABR got banned?

pedit umm no he didnt

[pisskop]

he cant join new games

[pisskop]

can we lynch that

after

we get the wolf? kthnx

[pisskop]

Pisskop reads real fake.
Seer if you can and metal isn't the wolf check pisskop.
Hugs and kisses farside.

You are completely off the rails now.

[pisskop]

PK pushing for Wolf lynch makes me feel really bad about him. I think he is scum. Once Wolf is gone, no nk, which though helpful, makes scum so easy to blend in. All they have to dp is sit back and agree with towny motions. This will make them increasingly hard to sniff out. Their biggest chance of losing is from Wolf kills.
We really Really should kill him tomorrow.

What part of systematic lynches based on associations makes a wolf blend in? Do explain your angst.

[pisskop]

That's completely crap logic, Ari. There are 9 of us. If we get the wolf today, than there is zero use for night. No NKs.

That means 8 of us, 1/4 (2) mafia. There is almost no way that we could lose that based on established associations and without an NK. Literally they have to take us to Lylo.

[pisskop]

Well, that's that. I don't think he is the wolf.

[pisskop]

Somebody tell me they copped the wolf.

[pisskop]

I guess I screwed it up after I figured it out. I went all bonkers on Cheet.

Prawn knew you were the seer.

[pisskop]

At least that's the impression I got.

[pisskop]

Nonsense. But we'll get there after we kill the wolf.

[pisskop]

Where did prawn give you the impression he knew? o.o

He kept mentioning Farside as town. And he seems experienced enough to have caught her out if he was the wolf.

[pisskop]

Pk, you now have 3 options only for Wolf. You've been pushing a wolflynch pretty hard.
Of the three, who is wolf? Why no vote yet?

Things lioke that after making the last three posts you did make you look scummy, just fyi. I didnt vote because I didnt want a lynch yet. And I didnt say that because I don't need to impress anyone.

[pisskop]

Intent.

[pisskop]

vote: West

[pisskop]

If you are town you have failed the town. I suppose you could . . . idk . . . contribute next time so you don't appear so scuzzy?

[pisskop]

Farside, are you sure you peeped me, Vyse, and cheet?

[pisskop]

Wolf. (1) Unless Lal planned this out?

What do you think of Prawn?

[pisskop]

[sigh]
I'd love to hear that Prawn was wolf. But Ari is acting so darn bad.

[pisskop]

Do. Join a large normal!

[pisskop]

prawn or Ari

[pisskop]

vote: Ari

Ari, why is prawn more likely wolf than you?

[pisskop]

mmmm. We'll see.

[pisskop]

Ari, who is the lasts scum and why?

[pisskop]

mmm choose your kill wisely tonight.

[pisskop]

Well its

ari
cheet
abr
pk

I know cheet is town based on interactions.

[pisskop]

sounds like we lynch abr tomorrow then.

[pisskop]

Scum ABR is apparently nice, rational, and clearspoken ABR
I suppose farside and cheet did so as well.

[pisskop]

So based on ABRs play, Im going to

vote: ABR

pedit: As stated before, prawn kept townreading farside. gave him too much credit.

[pisskop]

Why would you ask me today off rip instead of yesterday when you stood to get lynched?

[pisskop]

Anyway Ari, its either you or ABR getting rope for lunch today. Talk to me, I need you on our side.

[pisskop]

Hell, we lynch ABR tomorrow if Ari is town.

unvote
vote: Ari

I was nervous about letting Ari into lylo anyway.

[pisskop]

ABR

vote: ABR

[pisskop]

Piss
Goddamnit, so can I hold your emotional appeal response to me above your scumbag head forever? It was a good response.

[pisskop]

GG then.

[pisskop]

oh boi.

And yes, I'm not one to waffle like that in the pinch.

[pisskop]

Gotta kill for the dramas