Diffusion of Power (Open 478) over
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ProHawk Jack of All Trades
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Six pages and its only the first real-day. I think I will enjoy this game.
We all know the secret to success, only a select few are willing to do what it takes
How does Mollie go six pages, without knowing who she is voting?
Does this not read as disingenuous to anyone else?
I am seeing town in Tiger, and I am seeing town in HD. Both of them have voluntarily brought themselves into the limelight. This is actually the most I have seen HD post. Ever. Pirate Molly on the other hand is content to pop in every once in a while to stir the pot of sludge in HD's direction. She also has expressed viewing scum in HD and Fuzzy yet still won't move her "serious-lol" vote.
VOTE: Pirate Molly-
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Thats a good question, why don't you ask the person who posted the following.
In post 73, pirate mollie wrote:hey wisdom do you want to lynch hd? cos I am thinking I do!
In post 99, pirate mollie wrote:stop it about ongoing games
don't make N do something, it is hard for him
liking wisdom for town
fuzzy jesus christ can you possibly look any scummier, but I happen to know that you can
I am good for my hd vote for now
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This is all beside the point. The reason she is scum is
A) She is staying out of a large heated battle between two people that are likely both town.
B) She is making jabs into the argument, without directly engaging in it.
C) She won't vote for people she claims to be scum - voting hesitance.
The fact that she claims to not know where her vote is, well that is just silly in and of itself. She didn't the last game I played town with her. She was more than confident to place votes and seemed to be very competent. And she wasn't worried about sticking her neck out.-
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In post 161, petroleumjelly wrote:Also, kindly cut down on the swearing.
In post 164, tigerzone wrote:in other words, fuck off petroleum.
Real classy Tiger. I wholly support a policy-lynch of Tigerzone unless he replaces out. In fact, I won't vote for anyone-else.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: TigerZone-
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In post 185, pirate mollie wrote:I don't agree either and do I really have to give the talk where we have to deal all sorts of people in this world and that tolerance goes a long way in learning how to avoid human suffering
This is not an issue about tolerance. This is not an issue about whether or not swearing should be allowed. This is an issue of a player who politely requested to calm the language down, and in tiger's subsequent post he specifically told that player to f*** off. This is an absolute of lack of respect, lack of tolerance, and complete indecency on account of tiger.
Its apparent that tiger is here to be a troll. There is absolutely no place for this, if the mod isn't going to do something about it, its the job of the players to stand up and destroy this meta before it spreads like a plague. If you want to allow bullies and trolls take over the game, then don't vote for tiger. People like this take the fun out of the game, and drive players away. He needs to go.-
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Absolutely not. I will stand up for petroliumjelly based on principle alone.
I will vote for tiger the entire game if he isn't lynched today. If N has replacements lined up, I will replace out of the game so I don't ruin town's chances at winning. I have yet to ask for replacement so as to not be a burden on the administrative tasks of this game.
P-EDIT: I never was fine with shrimp accusing you of cheating, and Adam's bullying was not over the top, at least I didn't see it that way. Wisdom has been defending everyone, so I don't find it uncharacteristic that he takes the devils advocate role often.-
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I was waiting for Tiger to post before deciding the direction I wanted to take on this game. It seems like he is just going to ignore what he did, which only confirms the person and player that he is. As it appears to be some confusion on the matter, I am disgusted by how he treated petroliumjelly and only used Zepher as evidence toward him being a troll. I will be replacing out solely for how he disregarded petroliumjelly with blatant insolence.
Just a couple game related comments before I go.
The meta-game that was linked to show Mollie doing these "scum-tells" as town isn't exactly true. While she did leave her random vote in play for a long time, and tell people that she wouldn't be pressured into voting for someone, she never voiced her opinion that she had found scum (like she has in this game) until she was ready to vote.
If you want to use meta to clear someone, you have to have both town-meta, and scum-meta. You have to be able to show that she only does something as town, while never doing it as scum in order to be credible. Saying someone is town because they do X as town doesn't hold water because they may do the same thing as scum. Finally, take this game where she readily votes multiple times as town. Therefore, if she withholds her vote as town, and votes frequently as town without withholding it... you get the idea.
@Mod - I apologize to have to do this. I take my commitments to play these games very seriously and this saddens me to have to say this is my first game I have had to ask for a replacement. However, Tiger has made his post and refuses to take any responsibility for his actions. The players here have also made it known that they will not support getting rid of Tiger. I refuse to stand idly by and "forgive" his complete lack of respect toward the players here, or be "tolerant" of abusive behavior that will drive players away from this game. I know I do not want a community made up of players with the integrity that Tiger exhibits, and anyone who is tolerant of such behavior is only inviting the same. Therefore as a matter of principle, I request replacement.-
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ProHawk Jack of All Trades
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Time to get back up to speed.
UNVOTE:
I still find Mollie's beginning play suspect despite the defenses which haven't really touched the surface of the accusations in my opinion. However, I am sure with a Majiffy head things should get a whole lot more clear. /sarcasm
Here are a few things I found on my re-read.
In post 262, Wisdom wrote:In post 261, Human Destroyer wrote:
Right now we should be lynching mollie and Wisdom, so the fact that we aren't doing it is bad
Add "wants to lynch two townies" in my reason for being on your wagon
HD picked up on this, while it may have been a slip, more telling is the fact that he (Wisdom) hasn't been particularly vocal about being so sure that Mollie is town, especially not enough to make it a reason to lynch HD for. I have seen way too many "Thats not my intention" and "null" words pointed in her direction.
Also not liking the quick jab at HD during their argument.
In post 293, Wisdom wrote:On the other hand, scum will be lazy because they don't actually need the proof.
This was an off-hand remark to paint HD as scummy, also one which I somewhat disagree with. While its true scum don't need proof for themselves, they absolutely need proof to back-up their claims otherwise fake-scum-hunting becomes transparentveryquickly. While not all scum will play the same, the good ones will put a lot of work into their game. It definitely takes a lot more work to play scum well than it does as town.
And lastly, this comes after getting his third vote from Mollie.
In post 327, Wisdom wrote:What I know is that there are at least 3 people (Siveure, kmd and The Puck) who have barely posted anything useful so far. For all we know we could all be town fighting each other while they lurk.
Sounds like a deflection of attention to me.
VOTE: Wisdom
Random Comments:
In post 237, theslimer3 wrote:Not yet. I don't wanna ruin my no NK streak.
Maybe you should bribe the Mod to let you be scum in every game. Problem Solved.-
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ProHawk Jack of All Trades
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What you said and what you meant to say are two different things.
If they knew they wouldn't find anything to be able to falsely incriminate her, that's one thing, but if they could find something to help their cause, at least I know as scum I would be all over it.
Would you like to comment on you calling Mollie town with a null-read?-
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Sorry for my hiatus. One topic that keeps popping up this game that is bothering me a little bit, and it comes up quite frequently in games on M_S, is all of this talk about meta. Not ever have I seen a decent meta case that has been shown to have a correlational relationship with the alignment of a player. For those of you using meta heavily to base your arguments off of: I would like you to point me in the direction of evidence where meta was a successful determinant of a players alignment.My take: Meta is a weak determinant of alignment and is way too often used as a crutch to scum-hunting. I would love to have someone prove me wrong though...
So catching up, I tried to look at it with an eye of Wisdom being town, but things just kept popping out at me that I couldn't seem to ignore and further confirmed my vote.
In post 491, Wisdom wrote:Indeed, andthat's what I am going to do if he continues his bullshit. I only don't do it because I am not sure if he's just tunneling like you or if he's actually scum. Usually town tunnels on me, so I am reluctant to draw conclusions so easily.
1) Why wait to vote for someone who you think is scum? (I realize he answered it in his next sentence)
It looked to me like he is avoiding an OMGUS accusation by withholding his vote. It tells me he is definitely concerned with how he is viewed in the group, which isn't necessarily a scum-tell in itself. However, its how he reacts to being accused of placing an OMGUS vote is what ping's me as scum. D_O makes a comment about his vote being an OMGUS, and without any refutation, Wisdom sarcastically brushes it off as something scum would say.
2) His response to question #1 seems off to me in an illogical sort of way. (This is why I saw an ulterior motive in his lack of action)
Wisdom, what makes you as a player attract town-only tunnelers as opposed to scum-tunnelers? Do you believe that only town will tunnel players in general? Or is it only when they tunnel you? From that post #491, D_O did continue his "bullshit" and you waited 48 posts to place a vote after testing the waters with Mcqueen. What took you so long to build-up the courage?
In post 639, Wisdom wrote:I only have to say that if your gut says "D_O must be town because Wisdom must be scum", you'll be probably wrong about both. That's why I asked you to read our exchange but apparently you didn't do it with an unbiased mind.
Here is another post that is off from what Wisdom had originally coined as his thought process. Here is an example of Wisdom arguing that using your gut to get alignments off of players based on who they are pushing, is probably wrong.
In post 373, Wisdom wrote:
I have already commented on why I called Mollie town there - I felt HD was scum trying to push her lynch and mine - which would make both of us town. Other than that, I don't have a townread on mollie.
Yet, here much earlier on, he uses his gut-read of HD being scum giving him the ability to say Mollie is town in his case against HD.
RE: KMD
In post 610, Kmd4390 wrote:The last time I played with prohawk, he looked obvtown (although some people disagreed). He doesn't look that way here.
This is a pretty scummy setup post, IMO. No reasoning as to why I don't look obvtown, no evidence to how I looked obvtown, just a setup for some future case that will come down the line. The thing that struck me as odd is the last time we played together, KMD was scum, so his eye on my play was biased, he didn't need to look closely at my "obvtown" play. Oddity #2, do scum often leave the obv-town players alive? He left me alive to LYLO. Oddity #3, I have never had anyone tell me that I have ever looked obv-town as town. In fact, I have been mis-lynched D1 twice, and have rarely been night-killed.
In post 610, Kmd4390 wrote:Prohawk, so mollie is scum for having a scum read on human? Also why would being scum make you forget who you are voting?
Did I say Mollie is scum for having a scum-read on Human Destroyer? Did I imply that I thought Mollie is scum for having a scum-read on Human Destroyer? I thought I was pretty clear on why I thought Mollie was scum... Please explain why you came to that conclusion.
Being scum doesn't make you forget anything, and actually if you are a decent scum-player it may even make you more hyper-aware. My point is it felt like a charade to me. This is what is scummy. Being fake, specifically in this case, so later on you can use your earlier "mistakes" as a way to get people to look the other way at other things later-on down the road.
RE: McQueen.
I don't see what he is doing as scum-motivated, especially on the first-day without having been under a whole-lot of pressure. His posts, where he isn't sarcastic and acting dumb, suggest to me he has a deeper thought process.-
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I just went back to check, and your assertion that HD had 3 votes at the time is false. He had one vote from the less-active Mit, and gained one vote from Beauty before you voted. If you want to argue that you were under the assumption that there was a wagon from that D_O posted, that would be more believable to me. I still don't understand why you limited yourself to those two options...
Riot, you would find that quite comical.-
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In post 706, Wisdom wrote:So no, I didn't limit myself to anything.
If you didn't limit yourself, then the only other explanation is you let your scum-read limit your vote?-
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I guess what I don't understand Wisdom is you were on a wagon (McQueen), then you let your scum-read (D_O) convince you that there were only two viable voting choices (HD or yourself), then you say you would rather be on a D_O wagon (who wasn't a wagon and still isn't a wagon) instead of keep your vote on the wagon you were originally on. If you wanted to be on a wagon, you could have stayed with McQueen.
So your reasoning for voting D_O looks contrived IMO when you started talking about wagons and comparing him to HD. It doesn't add up to me. Now you are back onto McQueen. It's quite the hopping.-
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In post 711, theslimer3 wrote:Bite me.
Tempting, but you might be contagious. Contagion has me paranoid-
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In post 749, BeautyAndTheBeast wrote:Mollie - I agree with Wisdom re: mcqueen, particularly since he ramped up his VI-posting after I said some of his actions gave me pause as to my scumread on his slot.
You both are doing a piss poor job at being a hydra. I feel like I am playing a game with mollie and Majiffy, when I should be playing a game with BeautyAndTheBeast. Make your decisions and comments to each-other outside of the thread so that we can actually read one collective unit instead of two conflicting heads this whole game. KThx.
D_O, I know you probably feel alone when arguing with Majiffy, but all you really have to do is just ignore Majiffy's dumb insults and life goes back to normal. If it makes you feel any better, I would like you to stick around.-
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In post 770, CF Riot wrote:Prohawk say something game related. You still about the Wisdom wagon? Should I sheep Majiffy and vote D_O?
Have you not been reading my posts? Yes, Wisdom is still on my scum list. I don't care what you do, just make your own choices so you can't pawn them off on someone else when you are being eyed as possible scum. Nothing that has been said has either addressed my points on Wisdom, or made me want to change any of my reads.-
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I feel like people aren't reading a word I am saying **sigh**
He isn't scum cause he is a lurk-sack. Click on the link and feast upon my words.-
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In post 965, RachMarie wrote:at mod does the investigation/doc protects come before the kills in the night resolutions? It did not make it very clear in the Wiki? In other words, if a player gets NKed by scum, does their night action still go through?
I don't understand someone who has played multiple mafia games would have this question...
I also don't understand why this question was presented in the thread instead of in a PM...
Also not digging the soft-claim this early on without sufficient pressure.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Rach
I am calling BS and I would like answers to both of these Rach.-
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In post 1121, RachMarie wrote:I most definitely would not have claimed a N ONE Doc hello? Scum would have wanted to claim at least Night 2 or 3... And more likely Cop instead of Doc.
There are different scum-motivations for claiming what they claim.
1) Make a believable claim that people won't want to lynch.
2) Force a counter-claim.
The problem with 2 in this setup is that there is a possibility that roles can double-up. So there is no surety that there aren't two of the same roles. That makes counter-claiming that much more risky. Hence, the more tactically sound claim for scum would follow the first motivation, which is exactly what your claim was attempting.
So either you didn't do any real research on the setup, or you are trying to make a play on players who aren't familiar with the setup to avoid being lynched.-
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In post 799, ProHawk wrote:I feel like people aren't reading a word I am saying **sigh**
He isn't scum cause he is a lurk-sack. Click on the link and feast upon my words.
...at least you're consistent I suppose.-
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In post 1320, CF Riot wrote:@Pro, where's this McQueen scumread coming from? Last I heard you wanted to lynch Kmd. Do you have anything on him besides derp cause D3 is a little late for a policy lynch.
Are you trying to tell me his Day 2 play comes from town? Cause it looked pretty dang scummy to me, and if he is doing it as town, keeping him around will lose the game for us.-
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Ok, Riot. Since you keep saying what I am doing is a policy lynch, you tell me why it's so bad at the moment.
You agree that his play was scummy D2, yet you are sitting here arguing with me because i'm saying its a tactical move in addition to lynching a possible scum-dude?
Kmd, I will get to your post in a bit.-
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