When is claiming expected/required

[armlx]

I've noticed this a lot more recently where players refuse to claim when asked, despite being under heavy levels of pressure. Usually its just scum stalling for time, but more commonly now its people being dumb.

So, I want to know what is wrong with this rule.

If you are at L-(1/4th the number of players required for a lynch), especially with other people not voting you but pressuring you, a claim is expected.

[Thestatusquo]

Well, generally I will only claim if I think that it will stop me from being lynched. If and when doing so will prevent my lynch, then I will claim. Not before, or after that point.

[gorckat]

Depends?

If a vanilla has screwed up day 1 and gotten everyone's lynch lust, why should they claim? Will people really back off saying, "Oh! They're vanilla!"

If you're talking themes or power roles, then only when claiming will yield more useful info to the town than their death alone will does it make sense.

People in general should argue their best to avoid lynch w/o claiming when possible- gets people and hopefully scum to commit more.

[The Fonz]

Only claim when your lynch is inevitable otherwise, and not with a claim.

(unless you're a cop with a guilty, or a mason one day before potential lylo, or something).

[shaft.ed]

What TSQ and Fonz said. Being at L-1 for no or BS reasons only warrants a claim if you are in danger of being lynched for those BS reasons.

[Glork]

I am tempted to start making it a personal policy to hammer anybody at Lynch-1 who doesn't claim, regardless of the alleged "legitimacy" of the wagon.

Being one from lynch, for whatever reason it may be, used to be a very real threat to one's survival. The fact that SO MANY PEOPLE ON THIS SITE ARE GIANT, OVERCAUTIOUS WIMPS has hideously diminished the significance of a bandwagon.

Maybe I'll start giving people two posts or 48 hours (whichever comes first).

[Yosarian2]

Eh. Only claim if it's going to help, and if you think you can't otherwise prevent a lynch on yourself. No one should ever be "expected" to claim; vanillia townies, for example, should never claim at all. There's nothing "dumb" ahout just refusing to claim, depending on what the situation is and everything.

Now, the "legitimacy" of your wagon, or whatever, isn't an isuse. If you're at lynch -1, then obveously the rest of the town thinks they have a legimitate reason to suspect you, and you don't really get a say in that, heh. If claiming can prevent you from being lynched, and there's no other way to do that, it's usually a good idea; don't be stubborn just becuase you don't think the wagon on you is "legitmate" or whatever, that's silly.

[armlx]

I am tempted to start making it a personal policy to hammer anybody at Lynch-1 who doesn't claim, regardless of the alleged "legitimacy" of the wagon.

I concur with this completely, only I am unfortunately usually on those wagons and they tend to be scum.

Also I agree with Yosarian that using the "its a crap wagon defense" at L-1/2 is bull. Votes are votes, you are still in danger of death.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Every wagon to a pro-town player will feel like crap. I've been thinking L-1 is good, but I like armlx's L-(1/4th) formula.

[Dragon Phoenix]

I don't claim unless I have a power role. Better a vanilla townie lynched than all power roles exposed by the bandwagon until claim then switch to next tactics.

[armlx]

I don't claim unless I have a power role. Better a vanilla townie lynched than all power roles exposed by the bandwagon until claim then switch to next tactics.

This seems subpar. If you townie claim odds are you will die anyways, and if you don't, you not being mislynched > mislynch + wagons next day almost always.

[Yosarian2]

So...you agree that townies shouldn't claim then, armlx?

[Dasquian]

I think even vanilla townies should claim. You may get lynched for it anyway, but if the town wants to lynch you and you're being obstructive, you're just wasting the town's time and will probably get lynched for seeming like a stalling scum. If you claim honestly you at least did everything above board and the town can look back at how people reacted after you claimed.

[armlx]

So...you agree that townies shouldn't claim then, armlx?

No. Not at all. Dasquian said it. Plus while 9/10 times townie claim = still dead, 1/10 there's some reason to believe them.

[Mr. Flay]

I've yet to see a Townie claim help Town in a non-broken game. I'm with DP on this one..

[mith]

(Assuming I'm town...)

If I am being bandwagoned/pressured solely for a claim, I will not claim. Players should be voting for who they want to lynch. Knowing up front that I'm not going to claim when faced with a bandwagon-to-claim usually discourages such a wagon ever forming.

Otherwise, it depends too much on the situation. It's pretty rare that I get close to being lynched.

[mith]

On the flip side, if I'm voting for someone, it's never to get them to claim. In the rare event that I think someone should claim, I just make a case for that, not vote for them.

One of my biggest pet peeves in Mafia is when I'm going after someone for information purposes and rather than responding/answering my questions, they drop a claim because they get scared.

Certain roles should usually claim when they'll be lynched otherwise (Cops, Vigs, Masons), but they usually do so far too soon. I think players get all excited when they have a role that they think can save them through claiming and do so prematurely. Most roles, it

shouldn't

matter, and shame on towns for being too afraid to lynch claimed Doctors, Blockers, etc.

[Dasquian]

I agree with that in broad terms; I think "bandwagonning to claim" is the natural shortening of the lynching process. If I am prepared to lynch someone without knowing their claim, I may change my mind about them if I did know their claim. Therefore the person I find most suspicious I think should claim (and be given chance to claim) before they get hammered, always. To not do so would just be depriving yourself of information.

I don't understand the concept of bandwagonning someone literally because you want to hear them claim, unless it's some unusual situation where their claiming is good pro-town play and their refusal to do so comes across as scummy.

[Dasquian]

Of course if someone can dissuade a bandwagon without having to claim, fair play. Being able to talk yourself back from L-1 is either a sign of great play or, more likely, a town with commitmentphobia.

If it's the latter, as soon as one person refuses to claim at L-1 you can expect a long and drawn out game.

[Glork]

On the flip side, if I'm voting for someone, it's never to get them to claim. In the rare event that I think someone should claim, I just make a case for that, not vote for them.

Eh... there are times (however rare they may be) when I would willingly vote someone for someone I don't

necessarily

want lynched to get a claim. This only happens if I very firmly believe that the claim will help the town.

armlx: the whole "I would hammer but I'm usually on their lynch and they're usually scum" is so QFT it's not even funny. :/

I've yet to see a Townie claim help Town in a non-broken game. I'm with DP on this one..

I think I've seen a recent example of this, though I'm not at liberty to describe it just yet.
I'm almost certain that I've seen townie claims help towns in non-broken games. I can't recall any specific instances, but I'm fairly confident that being convinced by a genuine townie claim has led me directly to scums.
Assessing Townie claims (in closed setups) is, IMHO, one of the trickier parts of mafia, though. *shrugs*

[mith]

Exceptions always apply.

Well...

almost

always.

[Oman]

Pretty sure Yos2 won this thread.

Feel free to go post in another thread now.

[Xtoxm]

When you reach L-1, or 3 votes. Whichever comes first.

[shaft.ed]

When you reach L-1, or 3 votes. Whichever comes first.

THat explains a lot

[Mr Stoofer]

I don't claim unless I have a power role. Better a vanilla townie lynched than all power roles exposed by the bandwagon until claim then switch to next tactics.