Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 4:15 pm
To respond to a demand that I present a reads list.
In post 1312, The Fonz wrote:f I'm wrong and he's just derping around, then that still points to a lack of scumhunting intent.
he's saying that a fake Boon vote is bad, because it should have been a REAL Boon vote? That would be alright.
I find this hard to believe.
No, I'm obviously not lying. I mean it's fairly clear from the timeline of my posting that I was in the process of catching up. Some talk =/= obvious leading wagon. You're trying to paint me as piling on a PV lynch. BS.
Sorry, WHAT? Who are you saying was asking PV to explain anything? We're talking about a PV post. Do you mean asking Thor? The problem here is it's really really obvious what the 'problem' with Csareo is, and PV can't have not seen it.
In post 1313, The Fonz wrote:Because I don't count votes in my head as Ire-read, I look for scummy things. Obviously I wasn't entirely unaware some people had expressed some suspicion. But the Thor/Peregrine hatefest begins pretty much precisely from the point at which I paused myre-read.
In post 1314, Garmr wrote:In post 1311, Nero Cain wrote:Why is fonz townie, why am I suspicious?
Because I don't see what's wrong with what fonz is saying. I actually can see the thought he puts behind some of answer even if I don't agree with every read.
While on the other hand your just Like why are you scum reading him why is this guy a town/scum read even if they already explained it that or basing arguments on assumed knowledge which can't be proven or disproven. You also don't seem natural it's like you force yourself into a situation were you label someone as scum and then get in a heated debut. Sure people get into debuts all the time but not by going. "Me nero, why are you town/scum reading? oh that anwser you scum, Me debut, me look town *beats chest.*" or "Me nero, me assume you have more knowledge, you can't debate that since you can't prove don't have knowledge, You scum Me debut, me look town *beats chest.*" That's how I feel when I read your game.
In post 1317, goodmorning wrote:This is bad.
In post 1353, Flubbernugget wrote:It kinda implies you're not scumhunting. I mean, you have that huge back and forth with PV over a superficial case, and thats the only scum read I can remember you having. If you have better scum reads, why are they less prominent than some scum slip discredit?
In post 1356, Flubbernugget wrote:How much influence do you think Thor has had on the PV wagon?
In post 1022, Thor665 wrote:Aeronaut - lurksack
Cho - Lurksack.
GrayFoxxxx - Lurksack.
Goofyd00d - Lurksack (mild town on prior to derping out and replace)
hephaestus - burning newb - no real vibe yet, still trying to even get him to commit to opinions.
TobyLoby - Lurksack.
In post 1358, Thor665 wrote:In post 1353, Flubbernugget wrote:It kinda implies you're not scumhunting. I mean, you have that huge back and forth with PV over a superficial case, and thats the only scum read I can remember you having. If you have better scum reads, why are they less prominent than some scum slip discredit?
Out of 20 possible players I offered reads on 13 of them (14 if you squint, but it's really more of a 13).
And I have no stronger read than Pere - which would be quite clear from even a cursory examination of what I've said about him.
What are anyone's reads on those slots that I lacked a read on? Show me a strong opinion and I will show you a meaningless case.
In post 1356, Flubbernugget wrote:How much influence do you think Thor has had on the PV wagon?
Infinite - there is a reason there is only one actual wagon in this game and it's because I'm the only player who was willing to call someone scummy and also push on that wagon to make it happen.
You, meanwhile, are wondering why people aren't dinging me for not having enough clear reads.
Just work that one over a little bit and see where it gets you.
In post 1334, Egg wrote:
Gamr wrote: tbh I don't understand why scum would reveal they have a role that could confirm multiscum because that would make them more likely to be targeted in the night phase
At first, I wanted to call this town thinking because it shows that you are trying to understand where boon is coming from and admitting you may be wrong. Buuuuuut. Why are you thinking/talking about NKs?
In post 1355, Nero Cain wrote:In post 1314, Garmr wrote:
In post 1311, Nero Cain wrote:Why is fonz townie, why am I suspicious?
Because I don't see what's wrong with what fonz is saying. I actually can see the thought he puts behind some of answer even if I don't agree with every read.
While on the other hand your just Like why are you scum reading him why is this guy a town/scum read even if they already explained it that or basing arguments on assumed knowledge which can't be proven or disproven. You also don't seem natural it's like you force yourself into a situation were you label someone as scum and then get in a heated debut. Sure people get into debuts all the time but not by going. "Me nero, why are you town/scum reading? oh that anwser you scum, Me debut, me look town *beats chest.*" or "Me nero, me assume you have more knowledge, you can't debate that since you can't prove don't have knowledge, You scum Me debut, me look town *beats chest.*" That's how I feel when I read your game.
cute.
Even if that was remotely close to my gameplay as thus my meta why would my meta be suspicious unless you are arguing that its my scum meta but just forgot to include that part?
What do you like from Fonz?
In post 1361, Flubbernugget wrote:Bro I Smurfing hate your push on PV.
In post 1361, Flubbernugget wrote:What baffles me is that a wagon on you never gained traction.
In post 1361, Flubbernugget wrote:Your push is based off of the same null speculation PV's is on. What's worse is how your argument ends up boiling down to a semantic that can't be proven/disproven (well this is what Ireallymeant by multiball). If that's not scum motivation, it's a Smurf measuring contest. I don't think it's a Smurf measuring contest.
In post 1335, Egg wrote:As I said in the post you quoted while making this post, I had no issues with you sheeping at Izar. I was trying to understand your position. It seems that you claim to have mostly voted for lolreactions and failed to show us what reactions you got (unless I missed that part, which is entirely possible and if so please point me in that direction). And as I also said, there's possible scum motivation in adding momentum after a case is made if Script is town and you are scum. As for my specific read on Script, I've started to lean more town now that he's started posting some pretty good content. I liked Izar's case at the time it was made, but those points aren't really relevant anymore.
In post 1364, Thor665 wrote:In post 1361, Flubbernugget wrote:Bro I Smurfing hate your push on PV.
Bro, so what? What does that have to do with anything else you've said thus far?
In post 1361, Flubbernugget wrote:What baffles me is that a wagon on you never gained traction.
Why should it have and who should have started it and didn't?
In post 1361, Flubbernugget wrote:Your push is based off of the same null speculation PV's is on. What's worse is how your argument ends up boiling down to a semantic that can't be proven/disproven (well this is what Ireallymeant by multiball). If that's not scum motivation, it's a Smurf measuring contest. I don't think it's a Smurf measuring contest.
I disagree with your assessment of what my case is.
My case has nothing to do with semantics and everything to do with motive.
I have defended his case on me with semantics - the thing is, my semantics are backed up by evidence of what I was saying, wherein what I said only makes sense if I meant what I said I mean.
Pere has been told this and his repsonse has been "that's what you meant!?! Well...that's...that's shocking!!! Are you sure that's what you meant!?!" and basically nothing else.
Pere has still, apparently, been trying to understand my case on him - I have repeated it multiple times.
I have also explained the case to others, and had them understand it using the same words I am using with Pere - that makes me feel his "confusion" is a bit of a sham.
I have no idea what your issue with the case is, but I don't think you understand it because you're claiming it is something it clearly isn't - and the rest of your raised issues on me are, basically, complaining that other players didn't do something nonsensical and that I didn't have bad play.
Here's the case on Pere again.
He saw this conversation;
Nero: My read makes sense presuming it isn't multiball.
Thor: It makes sense to presume multiball and I have other issues with your case.
Pere: The way Thor mentioned multiball has certainty -and if it's multiball he is scummy!
Thor: How does that make sense.
Pere: Because of the way you said it.
Thor: Which is?
Pere: With certainty.
Thor: Like?
Pere: Saying "it makes sense to presume multiball"
Thor: Which shows certainty how?
Pere: I'd like to debate your definition of multiball and ask you about other reads as a smokescreen for a while, while still failing to understand why you find this scummy.
It literally makes no sense, and he can't explain it, and my comment makes absolute sense in context with the conversation I was having.
Now, on a quick skim, taken out of context...yeah, maybe, I could maybe see that looking bad.
But upon any examination? It doesn't. It just flat out makes no sense at all.
And there is no semantics in the case - also at all.
And if you think there is you have read the case poorly and don't understand it.
Also, you have awkwardly dropped your rather terrible 'Thor bad lurksack reads' thing - which was also showing poor understanding of the game and the gamestate, and even why I ever gave those reads.
If this is a reaction test you are doing it poorly.
If this is a serious case - you better start backing up what you think you believe with evidence to show you are right.
There is too much of this game to waste on a newb derfing in here wanting to make a stink and making random conclusions based off non-standard meta.
Read the game, read the cases, start talking sense, stop wasting my time - I have literally said everything here multiple times and in multiple ways - you could have learned it all without doing...whatever the hell it is you think you are doing.
What are you doing?
In post 1335, Egg wrote:
Me wrote:Pere, why is your entire reads list either scum vibes or started town but now scum? You realize there are town players in this game, right?
Pere wrote:Noy sure what you mean. Here's my old list, so who started as town and is now scum (not entire list, to be sure).
My point is you are implying that quite a few players are either scum reads for you, or you imply somewhere that they could be scum. Here's your list with color coding on how I interpret your reads. Should be obvious, but red=scum, green=town, black=null. And, I freely admit that I'm redding any mention of scum because my point is that even your "town" reads seem to leave room for the thought that they are scum:
Pere wrote: 1. Aeronaut*- In some twist of irony has fewer posts than me. We'll see what the catchup police have to say about him, I suppose.
2. Alina- replaced? being replaced?
3.Aneninen- early scumvibes. Later, saying and doing the right things, but taking the meticulous post-by-post approach with no analysis of the posts along with the stunningly empty conclusion of Pere is scum (418). This can easily be compared to Thor's 477 with actual reasons (even if wrong).
4. Boonskiies- Probably scum
5. Cho- thought the mafia claim was good discussion starter. However, it never went anywhere after that, nor was it used to start discussion. For that, downgraded from town-rvs to null (I think psychologically that when scum claim scum it helps relieve their conscious about being scum. If others take it as fake/humor, so much the better. In any scumclaim cases, esp. RVS, I look to motive) Nothing has improved the null read, including the wagon on him.
6. GrayfoxxxxCsareo- I liked for town at the start. That diminshed somewhat by the TSO tunnel. Grayfoxx is still got some town sheen, and has not degraded it any since taking over. We'll see how it goes.
7. davesaz- Early scumvibes. Improved somewhat, but still hits me when I read some of his posts. There is scumhunting there, but it seems of the cautious type.
8. Egg- Liked his early push on me. His later self-doubt I read somewhat as town, but keeping your vote there after expressing that doubt takes away the town cred. This is one I'm be exploring more of later.
9. Garmr- probably town.
10. goodmorning- Another player I usually start reading with a town bias towards their posts. So when I read them and feel icky, not a good sign. Leaning scum.
11. Goofyd00d- Early scumvibes. Some of the things he says are contradictions in and of themselves. (295 and 455 are examples)
12. hephaestus*- skimmed and will catchup later
13. Izariael- Already discussed. early townlean, but high expectations expected.
14. Muffin- Torn here. Outing neighborhood protown, but votes Cho as scum same post. claims I scumposted without a definition of why it's scumposting (very similar to Aneninen).
15. Nero Cain- early townvibes. We'll see if these stay.
16. PeregrineV- So town! My God, so town!
17. Scripten- early scumvibes. Some wording makes me wonder.392- A vote on him for "town cred" can only be town cred if Scripten is scum. Stuff like that keeps me from calling you town.
18. T S O- I think he's town this game. Probably means he's scum. Not my issue, but not voting him right now.
19. Thor665- early townread, but then downhill (slowly) from there, as he votes opposite my opinion. Kind of used to that, so not a full on scumread for that at this point.
The worst Thor post was calling this game multiball (261 and 265) for pretty much no reason (because it's 21 players?!?). Should there turn out to be 2 scumteams, I'll probably strongly advocate for a Thor lynch. Until then, I'll go back and forth with and about him trying to figure out if he is town that I just don't get or scum trying to trick me. Always fun.
20. TierShift- very early scumvibe, went away slowly. I see peeks of town, but not enough. Null for now, looking for more.
21. TobyLoby- Early null. The styling of some of her posts I think is town, but their delivery and followup are not there. It's like a one-way questioning but I don't think I've seen responses to the responses to her questions. Slight null-scum, but waiting for a strong read to pop.
And actually, my disclaimer only applies to Aneninen, Gray, and Muffin. But I also gave you the benefit of the doubt on Cho, Nero, TSO, and Toby and greened your self read. So the numbers still come out about right, if not a little in your favor. So, I repeat my question. You realize there are town players in this game, right? I mean, even if you are town, this should be an eye opener. You should probably re-order the list from towniest to scummiest and figure out who your top scum reads are even if this means having a pile who you don't like, but have to admit are town. Another thing that stands out about this list:Everyone on your wagon as of Page 7 is in red. Do you honestly believe your 7 player wagon is ALL scum?
In post 1227, The Fonz wrote:
In post 1121, AxleGreaser wrote:In post 1119, The Fonz wrote:At p20. Two things.
Csareo was scumhunting derpily. One of those last two words is alignment relevant.
My predecessor's Nero vote was decent, but I'm going toVote: PeregrineVbecause holy shit was #385 bad.
Why/how was it bad?
I see
skating over stuff (not deep thoughts for PereV)
(more room for fun when you know alignments?)What was the intent?
Too much is funny?
Primarily, calling Aneninen's voting reason 'fake' yet doing jack shit about this. Questions TSO's obviously not-serious vote. The only other part of that post that is in any way content is in saying Csareo's posts are 'refreshingly direct' when he kind of hints that he might have a problem with Thor but asks an empty question instead, the obvious answer to which is 'because he's fucking terrible.' It's a glaring filler post.
Other reasons why I'm happy with this: 385 is followed by a post taking issue with Garmr calling Csareo 'town with high chance of idiocy.' Note, not saying anything about the actual read, but objecting to the characterisation as a derp. This is while, as Muffin points out, he's voting Scrip. #501 is a list of all the players far too early to actually have a read on everyone. Combine the LOATP with the silent vote, and he's trying to look like he's posting a decent amount of content, but doing nothing to advance the game. Basically Muffin's #521 is excellent. Then he spends basically the rest of the game to date arguing with Thor but not voting him. His vote has been parked for 35 pages.
Note also PerV calling Boonskies "Probably scum" in #501 and doingprecisely jack shitabout this before and since. Explanation in #501 of Scripten suspicion also doesn't tally with it being just a sheep (it's also semantics). If the reasoning in #501 was real, why didn't he provide it when previously asked instead of going 'it was a sheep?' This is particularly bad since he attacked Thor by accusing him of doing exactly that in #571.
In post 1371, T S O wrote:think I'm just going to do a re-read or something - moivation to play this game has kinda been shot to shit, but I'll see what I can do.
In post 758, Scripten wrote:In post 751, Nero Cain wrote:Scripten, what do you think of me thinking you are the scum from my hood?
Kinda hard to form any real opinion on it. I don't know where your reads are, am either null- or town-reading other players in the hood, and I am speaking from a different PoV than you are. (You already know your own role. I already know mine.) There's too many variables for me to make a judgement call on that statement other than saying it's wrong.
In post 1105, Scripten wrote:In post 1093, Egg wrote:Scripten, why do you think knowing neighborhoods will be more useful later than now?
I can't give you any real specifics. I've never played with neighborhoods before. However, more information for town is usually a good thing. I also can't see the reveal being particularly anti-town, either. Unless scum get their own neighborhood (which seems like it'd be a little game breaking), they'll probably tell their team all about the composition of their individual hoods, anyway. While this may not cover every hood in the game, it would still be more information than town will have.
Current Events
Thor v. Nero Cain looks weird. I'm not sure I'm following what Thor was doing where he told Nero that he was buddying him, and I'm not sure why Nero took what Thor said as reason to vote him. (Yes, I realize that buddying is a scum tactic. I don't think it follows that claiming to be buddying someone is also a scum tactic.)
Axle's posts are really hard to read. Like.... super hard to understand. I don't think this is a scumtell, but it's definitely an annoying trait for any alignment. TSO doesn't read as scum to me, though I don't think his push on Aneninen is strong enough to justify a counter-wagon.