Mini 1075 - Fishtown Mafia

[Lrdwhyt]

A mass claim today doesn't seem to be the best course of action. I don't think it's a good idea to ever mass claim until we get to LYLO, or if there's some sort of situation in which a mass claim would benefit us. I'm pretty sure that Empking doesn't actually think the mass claim would help the town. He's either mafia trying to get us to mass claim (a bold move for a mafioso), an innocent with some sort of gambit up his sleeve, or a seriously misguided innocent who doesn't like to listen to logic.

I don't know where DavidParker got his innocent read from, and him saying that he likes town reads for no reason certainly doesn't help things. His admission to willingness to use logical fallacies to advance arguments is stupid as a scum move and still stupid as a town move. Does he even know what a logical fallacy is? If he's really always this dumb, then I'll give him a pass for horrid play. If not, significant behavioral changes are always causes for alarm, especially negative ones.

I think the main concern I have with Emp's idea is what was previously mentioned - I don't think someone like him would propose it like the way he did. I also don't think we should take that as any kind of tell towards Emp, because anything aobut him making it so obvious that hes town/scum because of that idea can be taken down to WIFOM.

@cruelty - why do you think davidparker is "incompetant"?

I assume it's because of DavidParker admitting that he doesn't mind using logical fallacies.

AD: We know that MC will help. (the unrefutable logic I've given that's only been answered with "You're questions" or idiotic statements) So its only logical that I'd want a massclaim.

Can everyone agree that MC will:
Not have an impact on whether we have confirmed town in lylo.
Force scum into a position they'd rather not be in.
Give town greater information and allow them to better hunt for scum.

(Also since we know AD and HF are the scum we can get them to claim first.)

If I wasn't convinced before that you aren't seriously arguing for a mass claim, I sure am now. How, in any way, was your logic irrefutable? Your asking for a mass claim was either a joke and you're not even trying, or you really want a mass claim, and you're hoping that no one will actually read your arguments.

1. As someone else said, no. Outing the roles means power roles die, thus decreasing the chances of having confirmed town in LYLO.
2. Depends on whether they're early in the mass claim or not.
3. Yes.

And if you do have an ulterior motive, do explain now. It seems obvious that no one is supporting a mass claim, so you may as well explain why.

Lrd:The last two points are in my favour (though I disagree that it requiresx thenm to be early in order to be put into a bad position) and we will not have confirmed town period. That's it.

I'm willing to drop suggesting MC but any argument put against me HAS to take into account the fundamental fact that MC is the best move for the town to make otherwise your delibrately helping scum.

If you want to take that path, then at least explain why you don't argue for a day 1 mass claim in every other game you're innocent in.

[fallen angel]

So, what are your feelings about lynching based on stupidity and bad play more than simple scumminess? This is directed at everyone, by the way.

Generally, I think it's better not to lynch people simply for stupid cases, bad play, etc. Only if it begins hurting the town is it really an issue.

[Fishythefish]

Day 1, Votecount 4

DavidParker (3) –singersigner, fallen angel, Nocmen
Empking (3) - havingfitz, AdumbroDeus, cruelty
havingfitz (1) - Empking
fallen angel (1) - DavidParker
Not voting (3) – ConfidAnon, xenophon, Lrdwhyt

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch

[AdumbroDeus]

Lrd:The last two points are in my favour (though I disagree that it requiresx thenm to be early in order to be put into a bad position) and we will not have confirmed town period. That's it.

I'm willing to drop suggesting MC but any argument put against me HAS to take into account the fundamental fact that MC is the best move for the town to make otherwise your delibrately helping scum.

This isn't even worth arguing, now why did you propose it? We've already gotten past any possibility of doing a mass claim, so unless you have a damn good reason, you're looking like a pretty viable play of the day.


Playing dumb anymore won't help.

So, what are your feelings about lynching based on stupidity and bad play more than simple scumminess? This is directed at everyone, by the way.

Generally, I think it's better not to lynch people simply for stupid cases, bad play, etc. Only if it begins hurting the town is it really an issue.

Depends on the bad play, there's play so bad that the person has to simply be incompetent (and that should show up a specific way), there's bad play so bad that the player has to be incompetent scum. When play that makes you say either is the case is done by an obviously strong player and it significantly hurts town's chances of winning, then it's scummy.


The exception being if the strong player is obviously outmatched by the majority of players in the game.



So, the answer is it depends, some play is flat-out scummy, some play is incompetent, some player is scummy and incompetent, and some play is scummy for it's incompetence.

[AdumbroDeus]

I think the main concern I have with Emp's idea is what was previously mentioned - I don't think someone like him would propose it like the way he did. I also don't think we should take that as any kind of tell towards Emp, because anything aobut him making it so obvious that hes town/scum because of that idea can be taken down to WIFOM.

ANYTHING can be reduced to WIFORM, that's why we gotta figure out which side the idea actually does something for.


From there, pressure for an explanation.

[Lrdwhyt]

So, what are your feelings about lynching based on stupidity and bad play more than simple scumminess? This is directed at everyone, by the way.

Generally, I think it's better not to lynch people simply for stupid cases, bad play, etc. Only if it begins hurting the town is it really an issue.

If you're not talking to me, I'm not suggesting we lynch people just for being incompetent. But I do think taking a second look at people who are playing incompetently when they usually play competently is a good idea.

[singersigner]

Ok, so not that it matters any more, but I didn't plan on leaving my own questions unanswered, so why not...
1. What can we expect from you activity-wise?
-Well, my brief stint of V/LA is over. I should be able to post at least once per day. More if I find something worth responding to/time permits.
2. What time zone are you in?
-Mountain.
3. Are there any circumstances in which you would hammer someone you believe to be innocent?
-Entirely innocent? Probably not. If it's the difference between a lynch and a no lynch (like, a matter of hours before deadline), and my arguments for a counter-wagon haven't taken off, I will.
4. What generation are you in/from?
-I'm the fiscally conservative, socially liberal generation. Thank my parents and college for that.
5. I'm OCD and needed a fifth "question."
-yeah...

Anyway, there's not much of a point in analyzing the answers to my questions just yet, considering how much activity there's been mutually exclusive from that. I'll reference back to it dependent on later play.

As for right now...
-I agree with Lrdwhyt about not mass-claiming.
-I disagree with Fallen Angel about not lynching people for stupid cases...I generally catch scum when they're grasping for things to make a case with.
-Nocman, just look at DP's previous games and you will quickly learn why anyone would think he's incompetent.
-I don't like the argument about "weak town", experienced players, who won a scummy for what, etc... You're dismissing anyone who's actually done anything on this site that hasn't been recognized YET. It's complete WIFOM, and I don't like how FA has just latched on to Emp in defense. You're assuming that just because people haven't been on this site for very long, they're "weak" (except DP...go ahead and assume all you want). Way to dismiss "us."

I'm too tired from being sick all weekend, so I'm going to finish my catch-up analysis later.

Also, to whomever misunderstood that I was looking for a policy lynch on DP...no, it was an RVS vote, that was actually pretty effective, due to his natural stupidity. I'm keeping my vote where it is.

[AdumbroDeus]

-I don't like the argument about "weak town", experienced players, who won a scummy for what, etc... You're dismissing anyone who's actually done anything on this site that hasn't been recognized YET. It's complete WIFOM, and I don't like how FA has just latched on to Emp in defense. You're assuming that just because people haven't been on this site for very long, they're "weak" (except DP...go ahead and assume all you want). Way to dismiss "us."

Why is everyone taking this as a personal insult? You're completely missing the point and this tangent is distracting (hence why I already apologized for it).


The point is, he's a top player, nobody else is the game is, so it's reasonable for him as scum to believe that he can convince a town that is significantly weaker then himself to do something incredibly dumb, like mass-claiming.


Ballsy scum, yes, but unless he had either a crazy gambit or a PR that works with it, almost definitely scum.

[fallen angel]

The reason everyone is bothered by it is because you're forgetting that this isn't the only place to play Mafia. I'd played for 2 years before I even started looking for somewhere to play online. People could be great players with plenty of experience, but be like singersinger and have joined less than a year ago.

[AdumbroDeus]

The reason everyone is bothered by it is because you're forgetting that this isn't the only place to play Mafia. I'd played for 2 years before I even started looking for somewhere to play online. People could be great players with plenty of experience, but be like singersinger and have joined less than a year ago.

STOP DISTRACTING FROM THE TOPIC AT HAND WITH YOUR FUCKING HURT EGOS! LYNCHING SCUM IS MORE IMPORTANT THEN BITCHING CAUSE I SAID EVERYONE'S E-PENIS SMALLER THEN EMP'S CAUSE IT WAS NECESSARY TO MAKE MY POINT!

1. EMP is presumably a top player, as shown by winning the scummy.

2. Regardless of experience, nobody in this game (myself included) is a top player, we are strong players AT BEST.

3. A top player can convince a strong player to do stupid shit or read them to hell and back making them look powerless, it happens all the time. (ex. here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_m9138477W8 where a strong player doesn't even get a single hit off a top player).

4. It is entirely plausible that EMP as a top player believed he could convince a town made up of strong players at best to do something that played right into his hand as scum.



But rather then reading the points I made and commenting on them logically, you're bitching about my estimation of your skill level. You REALLY think that you distracting from lynching scum by acting like a little bitch is gonna improve my opinion of your ability? Especially since I retracted my statement about this being a weak town already due to it being an overly harsh statement and distracting and said we're not as strong as EMP, or at the very least EMP has significant reason to believe we're not as strong as he is (which would be the deciding factor in whether or not to play a gambit like this).



So rather then bitching about everything like I killed your cat, why don't you PROVE you're a competent player? Is there any LOGICAL reason why you believe I'm incorrect?


Put up or shut up, cause all posts about you being insulted do is increase your postcount, they add NOTHING to the game.

[havingfitz]

Adumb....you seem to making a bigger deal over experience levels than the people you are going off on. Whether your comments are valid or not...one or two one off retorts to your comment don't warrant your continued over reactions about your intent. Let it lie and it will die.

That said...it appears Emp and DP are getting most of the attention at the moment. DP because his meta, from what people seem to be inferring, of playing poorly. My question...does he 'play stupid/poorly/~adj.' all the time whether he is town or not? If so...the perception by some that he may already be following his meta in this game doesn’t really tell us anything about is alignment.

Emp on the other hand doesn't have a bunch of people reminiscing about his crap play and in fact has formed a small fan club in here with his scummy. Whoo hooo. That said...he does not have a history that I can see of poor play or of recommending D1 MCs.

So at the moment if I had to choose between consistent poor play (DP) or out of the ordinary detrimental recommendations (Emp) to be the target of my suspicions/vote, it would obviously be where it's at.

[Empking]

The reason this is my first game proposing a mass claim is because I think early MC is the best case in Mini normals and just mini normals and even then only when its plain like this one. (themes are crazy and larges are VT's infected)

Everyuone, I want a mass claim because its the best play. Just for that reason.

[Nocmen]

So we can assume that in future games emp, you will constantly propose MC in mini normals?

And Adumbro and fallen angel, do you think disclaiming someone's experience and being called weaker has anything to do with them being scum?

I've looked through DP's other games, and I have nothing wrong with keeping my vote on him, he definitely seems like at best a detriment to the town.

[Empking]

So we can assume that in future games emp, you will constantly propose MC in mini normals?

.

You can.

[singersigner]

But rather then reading the points I made and commenting on them logically, you're bitching about my estimation of your skill level. You REALLY think that you distracting from lynching scum by acting like a little bitch is gonna improve my opinion of your ability? Especially since I retracted my statement about this being a weak town already due to it being an overly harsh statement and distracting and said we're not as strong as EMP, or at the very least EMP has significant reason to believe we're not as strong as he is (which would be the deciding factor in whether or not to play a gambit like this).

ACTUALLY.

YOU seem to be making a big deal out of something that's entirely WIFOM. You're willing to write off a scummy play because he's been "proven" to be a good player? And then calling us ignorant and over-emphasizing your penis with your font size...really not helping. To me, you've created an entirely different issue with how emotional you've become over it.

The reason this is my first game proposing a mass claim is because I think early MC is the best case in Mini normals and just mini normals and even then only when its plain like this one. (themes are crazy and larges are VT's infected)

Everyuone, I want a mass claim because its the best play. Just for that reason.

No. "According to ADB," you've been around here long enough to know that when the town has decided as a whole that something is a bad idea/really fucking stupid, you don't push it. But you pushed it, and now we're trying to figure out if that's just scummy, or stupid.

I've looked through DP's other games, and I have nothing wrong with keeping my vote on him, he definitely seems like at best a detriment to the town.

Can you embellish a little? In the games I've seen with him, I've

really

seen them. I've watched each of them pan out, and know exactly what DP does...but can you say the same just from browsing through? I just want to be confident that you think he's more than just a VI, and not just using Meta against him.

[AdumbroDeus]

Adumb....you seem to making a bigger deal over experience levels than the people you are going off on. Whether your comments are valid or not...one or two one off retorts to your comment don't warrant your continued over reactions about your intent. Let it lie and it will die.

Because it's necessary to establish that he would at least perceive us as less effective players in order to establish any explanation for the massclaim whatsoever, otherwise I wouldn't touch on experience levels.


I'm pretty sure I've found scum, so I plan on focusing on him and getting him lynched. Only people's counter-arguments to him being scum are currently "I'm not a weak player" when town as a whole being weak (

myself included

) isn't even my argument right now (again, I backed off that because it was overly harsh and a distraction regardless), my argument is that EMP's

perception

is that there was enough of a skill gap between himself and town to allow for him to successfully force a massclaim through.


E-penis size is irrelevant and just side-tracking this discussion, but unfortunately anything tangentially related to comparing skill levels will inevitably get sidetracked into that discussion, which is why I'm bringing it back on course.




And no, I can't drop the issue, we need to lynch scum, which EMP almost definitely is unless he has a damn good explanation in which case, I'm listening.

YOU seem to be making a big deal out of something that's entirely WIFOM. You're willing to write off a scummy play because he's been "proven" to be a good player? And then calling us ignorant and over-emphasizing your penis with your font size...really not helping. To me, you've created an entirely different issue with how emotional you've become over it.

Misusing WIFORM, wiform is when both options are equally likely.

This case has a CLEAR advantage towards one side, so it's not WIFORM, it's looking at an action at face value.


Did you not notice me including myself in that? I never touched on my personal pride I was telling you to stop letting your collective pride get in the way of what's staring you in the face, and quite frankly this isn't really about how good we ACTUALLY are, this is about how good EMP perceives us to be.


Just laying it out on the table,

I probably suck compared to EMP in general

, I played in an entirely top players game in invitational 11 (cept me obviously) and got raped horribly. As far as I'm concerned, I'm one of the members of the "unwashed masses", only I have direct experience with top players attempting to pull the wool over town's eyes so I'm not buying it.


That wasn't emotion btw, that was emphasis, there was a major difference.



So now then, do you have any

LOGICAL

arguments as to why I'm incorrect?

@EMP

Laying aside the massclaim idea, who do you think is scum?

[AdumbroDeus]

EBWOP:

By "laying aside" I mean ignoring any reads you got from it.

And Adumbro and fallen angel, do you think disclaiming someone's experience and being called weaker has anything to do with them being scum?

Do you mean discrediting? Depends, figuring out how strong a player is has a lot to do with figuring out what tells work on them.

[fallen angel]

The reason everyone is bothered by it is because you're forgetting that this isn't the only place to play Mafia. I'd played for 2 years before I even started looking for somewhere to play online. People could be great players with plenty of experience, but be like singersinger and have joined less than a year ago.

STOP DISTRACTING FROM THE TOPIC AT HAND WITH YOUR FUCKING HURT EGOS! LYNCHING SCUM IS MORE IMPORTANT THEN BITCHING CAUSE I SAID EVERYONE'S E-PENIS SMALLER THEN EMP'S CAUSE IT WAS NECESSARY TO MAKE MY POINT!

Wow. I haven't read the rest of the stuff, and I don't intend to at the moment (work sucks >.<) but this is... wow. I really don't care about my ego, or anyone else's for that matter. MY point was that your point is absolutely retarded since people could have off site experience, and you're straw manning that into something completely different. This is fascinating, but a complete waste of everyone's time, and it doesn't help us catch scum.

[fallen angel]

So we can assume that in future games emp, you will constantly propose MC in mini normals?

And Adumbro and fallen angel, do you think disclaiming someone's experience and being called weaker has anything to do with them being scum?

I've looked through DP's other games, and I have nothing wrong with keeping my vote on him, he definitely seems like at best a detriment to the town.

I feel I should respond to this to, as it won't take long. I think that disclaiming someone's experience and calling them weaker could have something to do with their being scum, if used as a technique to question the validity of the argument, like "I'm not scum, his case is bad because he has less experience." Other than that, I guess it varies depending on the situation.

[Nocmen]

I've looked through DP's other games, and I have nothing wrong with keeping my vote on him, he definitely seems like at best a detriment to the town.

Can you embellish a little? In the games I've seen with him, I've

really

seen them. I've watched each of them pan out, and know exactly what DP does...but can you say the same just from browsing through? I just want to be confident that you think he's more than just a VI, and not just using Meta against him.

Yes. In looking through, I see parts where he all but forgot his role, and play that seems detrimental to whatever side hes on. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt in Newbie 1012, where the person he replaced for pretty much dug him a grave, but he made no attempts at getting out of it. Either he's scum and we get rid of that, or we get rid of someone who is harming the town. I feel both are very acceptable for a D1 lynch target.

[cruelty]

i can see where ad is coming from. not entirely sure i agree, but eh.

for me, it boils down to the fact that empking is experienced and has history which suggests competence. the issue, therefore, is whether or not an experienced, competent player would suggest an illogical course of action.

i don't think the calibre of opposition really matters. of a more pressing concern for me is the lack of a decent reason behind the push for a massclaim. yes, he's given reasons for a d1 massclaim, but not really convincing ones, and i also find the tone of the explanations to not really be that genuine; there's a certain lack of urgency or conviction (this isn't really quotable, it's just how i'm reading his posts, specifically in his iso posts 4 and 10).



(ps AD, is there a difference between wifom and wiform?)

(pps nocmen, i was going to answer your question about DP's competence but it seems it's been resolved)

[Fishythefish]

Day 1, Votecount 5

DavidParker (3) –singersigner, fallen angel, Nocmen
Empking (3) - havingfitz, AdumbroDeus, cruelty
havingfitz (1) - Empking
fallen angel (1) - DavidParker

Not voting (3) – ConfidAnon, xenophon, Lrdwhyt

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch

[DavidParker]

I've looked through DP's other games, and I have nothing wrong with keeping my vote on him, he definitely seems like at best a detriment to the town.

Can you embellish a little? In the games I've seen with him, I've

really

seen them. I've watched each of them pan out, and know exactly what DP does...but can you say the same just from browsing through? I just want to be confident that you think he's more than just a VI, and not just using Meta against him.

The notion that I am a VI is preposterous and just a quick look at some of my recent games will make it obvious that I have done all my "strange/crazy/non-sensical" actions with a purpose in mind. But really, we should be looking at this game and not discussing player meta and game theory at this point.

[Empking]

AD; HF is my main suspect because his reaction to my MC idea didn't seem like honest reaction "town PRs will claim VT" SS is also either a VI or scum, leaning to VI though.

[havingfitz]

HF is my main suspect because his reaction to my MC idea didn't seem like honest reaction "town PRs will claim VT"

My reaction was honest and based on the fact it was a stupid idea....which was shared by several others in this game. And when you use quotation marks you should actually be quoting something the person you are quoting said. I never said "town PRs will claim VT" nor anything close to it. Another misrep on your part. A lie. You have been a lot less active since your intial MC bravado. Are you floundering a bit? You are acting scummy. Still happy with my vote.

And for those voting DP or not at all....voting scummy play (Emp) is always better than voting bad play (a growing sentiment towards DP).