Mini 1075 - Fishtown Mafia

[AdumbroDeus]

/confirm


Urg, 11 man game, I really hope the mod balanced it well.

[AdumbroDeus]

VOTE: Empking


You're either incredibly dumb or rolefishing scum, which is it?


Let's out our PRs right now so scum can just NK them, and they have no reason to CC a PR so they can just claim vanilla.


The ONLY way this could work is with a setup with two doctors (which is inherently broken), for pretty much any other non-completely broken setup it needs to be at least d3 so the PRs can at least have info and produce confirmed townies.


I don't want you in lylo.

[AdumbroDeus]

Also before I forget...

General V/la due to a busy semester, especially monday-weds due to my 12 hour+ days.

[AdumbroDeus]

AD: We know that MC will help. (the unrefutable logic I've given that's only been answered with "You're questions" or idiotic statements) So its only logical that I'd want a massclaim.

Can everyone agree that MC will:
Not have an impact on whether we have confirmed town in lylo.
Force scum into a position they'd rather not be in.
Give town greater information and allow them to better hunt for scum.

(Also since we know AD and HF are the scum we can get them to claim first.)

Why would telling them who to NK put scum in a position they don't wanna be in? The just get to claim vanilla and kill the PRs and now we have the PRs less able to actually help town cause they're gonna die summarily.


In that case, the only possible use is to prevent counter-claiming, and if the PRs have no information, why would scum counter-claim them?

Having the PRs die will certainly make it far less likely that we'll have confirmed town in lylo because they'll die before they can confirm people.


That logic is far from irrefutable, it has more holes then swiss cheese.



Since you have a scummy, I'm going with "dear lord you should know this is bad" and you're obviously trying to take advantage of how inexperienced town is in this game because mini opens always have tons of inexperienced players fresh off the newbie que.

AdumbroDeux

I think you not wanting someone in lylo based on a gameplay issue is a bit extreme. Empking is probably town despite his horrible mass-claim idea.

It's literally a textbook scumtell coming from a player who has a scummy, there's no explanation beyond trying to take advantage of town's inexperience.

[AdumbroDeus]

Seriously guys, how many successful d1 massclaims have there been on a non-theme game with crazy mechanics? Exempting truly broken setups?


So why in God's good name would we do it now? And why does it make any sense that a player as experienced as he is (and has a fracking scummy) would propose this? Emp is obvious-scum or took crazy pills.

[AdumbroDeus]

@Fallen Angel

: Vote Emp, obvious scum before dealing with dumb or scum.

I think he had other motives behind suggesting a day 1 claim. He's obviously not dumb enough to think people would have agreed to a mass claim. And this game isn't full of inexperienced players so he wasn't trying to take advantage of anyone. Recklessness = Town in my eyes.

Recklessness is a town-tell, but scum can drop town-tells as well, overall play is what counts, and overall play here...


The fact that he hasn't been lynched already suggests that this game is full of

relatively

inexperienced players, or at the very least weak ones.


As far as an ulterior motive, this is a mini normal, there's no normal town roles that can exploit a d1 massclaim enough to make it worthwhile and if he's just gambiting, town loses way too much.

[AdumbroDeus]

@Fallen Angel

: Vote Emp, obvious scum before dealing with dumb or scum.

I'm happy with my vote where it is. Just because he's obvscum to you, doesn't mean I believe he is. He could very well be, but it's three pages into the game. That's far too early to pass judgement on who is definitely scum.

Unless he has one hell of a good motive for it, there's absolutely no reason for a generally strong player to make a mistake like this and defend it in such a fallacious way.

Your entire argument is a relativist fallacy combined with buddying.

Oh trust me, I'm not even going to argue or refute this, because it's true. But I'm buddying because I'm right (he is town) and don't mind using silly falacies if I have to.

...

Definately leaning dumb.

Empking is probably town despite his horrible mass-claim idea.

I agree here. It seems very unlikely for scum to push so hard for power roles to be outed openly, seeing as a mass claim does make them have to stick to a claim day 1. Without knowing the setup, that's not an ideal situation for scum. Barring wifom, a scum would not make themselves the prime center of attention this early in the game in a theory discussion like this.

So why you picking the one that pegs him as obvious town? There were other people who said mass-claiming is dumb, why pick this one that has other connotations?

[AdumbroDeus]

@Fallen Angel

: Vote Emp, obvious scum before dealing with dumb or scum.

I'm happy with my vote where it is. Just because he's obvscum to you, doesn't mean I believe he is. He could very well be, but it's three pages into the game. That's far too early to pass judgement on who is definitely scum.

Unless he has one hell of a good motive for it, there's absolutely no reason for a generally strong player to make a mistake like this and defend it in such a fallacious way.

The problem I have with voting empking is shown in the below quote:

Empking is probably town despite his horrible mass-claim idea.

I agree here. It seems very unlikely for scum to push so hard for power roles to be outed openly, seeing as a mass claim does make them have to stick to a claim day 1. Without knowing the setup, that's not an ideal situation for scum. Barring wifom, a scum would not make themselves the prime center of attention this early in the game in a theory discussion like this.

I don't think there's enough evidence (without wifom) to back up the idea of empking being scum *or* town. He could very well be scum, but he also might be town pushing a less-than-popular idea. Hell, he could be a jester for all we know. However, DavidParker seems clearly scummy to me, and there's no real wifom in my case against him.

Which I could understand coming from a weak townie, but not a player with credentials, if he was pro-town he had no reason to propose it in the first place, and it's not unreasonable to think that he could force it through via sheer force of personality (which i have seen scum do to groups of weaker players on multiple occasions).


As far as a jester, we are limited to standard roles for normal games, so there will not be a jester.


Davis Parker just seems mad dumb, it's possible he's scum, but it seems more likely he just has no clue what good play is.

[AdumbroDeus]

Again, because all you need to do is look at the fact that strong players can push through ideas were are fundamentally destructive to town. I can provide a wonderful example from my days as a noobish mafia player from another site in the form, of chrono trigger mafia (http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=274820), check out the endgame interaction between the confirmed indies and town.


There, you have a concrete reason why it would advantage him to do it as scum and no concrete reason to do it as town, unless he's got an esoteric role (normal game guidelines...). If he has some other reason, he'd best explain it, fast.

[AdumbroDeus]

[So you're completely ruling out the fact that he could be misguided town? Time on the site or experience don't prevent people from having good intentions but not going about the proper way.

Look, he has a scummy for best town performance, there's no way I can believe he'd just be misguided about something as simple as massclaiming d1 on a normal. Being on for a while doesn't mean anything, that's correct, but when you win a scummy, that establishes that you have a high level of competence, at least at the side that you played.

So, misguided town is ridiculously unlikely, no, he did something mad scummy, he needs to explain himself, fast.

No, I actually hate wifom. Empking wasn't trying to convince "weak" players, he was trying to convince the whole town. Yeah, it's questionable for an innocent player to do that, but that doesn't outright prove that he's scum, either.

You're missing the point, there's nobody beyond him that seems to be no notable players in this game, so the entire town is the "weaker players" in this case.

[AdumbroDeus]

EBWOP: meant to say "beyond him, there doesn't seem to be any notable players in this game".

[AdumbroDeus]

"he needs to explain himself, fast" means the topic is urgent. I had no other connotations beyond that, but if you wanna draw something implied out of it, take "he needs to explain it in his next post".

[AdumbroDeus]

[So you're completely ruling out the fact that he could be misguided town? Time on the site or experience don't prevent people from having good intentions but not going about the proper way.

Look, he has a scummy for best town performance, there's no way I can believe he'd just be misguided about something as simple as massclaiming d1 on a normal. Being on for a while doesn't mean anything, that's correct, but when you win a scummy, that establishes that you have a high level of competence, at least at the side that you played.

So, misguided town is ridiculously unlikely, no, he did something mad scummy, he needs to explain himself, fast.

No, I actually hate wifom. Empking wasn't trying to convince "weak" players, he was trying to convince the whole town. Yeah, it's questionable for an innocent player to do that, but that doesn't outright prove that he's scum, either.

You're missing the point, there's nobody beyond him that seems to be no notable players in this game, so the entire town is the "weaker players" in this case.

I'd like to see what game he got the scummy for, before I agree with you. I doubt that empking changes too much from game to game, or most players for that matter, and his performance in that game could be similar to here.

Also, the second quote was from me as well.
And I'm not missing the point. Just because he's the only one with a scummy doesn't mean anyone else here is necessarily a bad player, it just means that they haven't been on as long, or haven't had as notable a performance. Most scummers don't have awards. I think you're putting a little too much stock into the fact that empking does.

srry about that, quote tag mess-up.


Nobody's gonna earn a town performance scummy for convincing town to mass-claim d1 in a normal game, real talk. It's fundamentally opposing your wincon.


Do you think you're a top player?

Does anyone here feel they're a top player?

I'm not saying that everyone is necessarily bad (anymore, I apologize for my overly harsh generalization earlier) but being weaker somebody who won a scummy is the status quo unless you're in that same class of players. Could a top player manipulate solid to average players into doing bad things? Well, yea, happens all the times in all sorts of games. So most likely explanation is he tried it, and there doesn't seem to be any other reasonable explanation regardless of alignment.


So, if you have any reasonable arguments as to other explanations, I'd be happy to hear them, but arguing the rest

@emp:

ohairthere, care to respond?

@xenophon and cruelty:

Sup dawgs, wanna hear more from you two, who's scum?

[AdumbroDeus]

EBWOP: meant to say, "but arguing the rest of town's level of competency is little more then a distraction and a waste of time unless it helps us get a read, so let's move off that tangent".

[AdumbroDeus]

Lrd:The last two points are in my favour (though I disagree that it requiresx thenm to be early in order to be put into a bad position) and we will not have confirmed town period. That's it.

I'm willing to drop suggesting MC but any argument put against me HAS to take into account the fundamental fact that MC is the best move for the town to make otherwise your delibrately helping scum.

This isn't even worth arguing, now why did you propose it? We've already gotten past any possibility of doing a mass claim, so unless you have a damn good reason, you're looking like a pretty viable play of the day.


Playing dumb anymore won't help.

So, what are your feelings about lynching based on stupidity and bad play more than simple scumminess? This is directed at everyone, by the way.

Generally, I think it's better not to lynch people simply for stupid cases, bad play, etc. Only if it begins hurting the town is it really an issue.

Depends on the bad play, there's play so bad that the person has to simply be incompetent (and that should show up a specific way), there's bad play so bad that the player has to be incompetent scum. When play that makes you say either is the case is done by an obviously strong player and it significantly hurts town's chances of winning, then it's scummy.


The exception being if the strong player is obviously outmatched by the majority of players in the game.



So, the answer is it depends, some play is flat-out scummy, some play is incompetent, some player is scummy and incompetent, and some play is scummy for it's incompetence.

[AdumbroDeus]

I think the main concern I have with Emp's idea is what was previously mentioned - I don't think someone like him would propose it like the way he did. I also don't think we should take that as any kind of tell towards Emp, because anything aobut him making it so obvious that hes town/scum because of that idea can be taken down to WIFOM.

ANYTHING can be reduced to WIFORM, that's why we gotta figure out which side the idea actually does something for.


From there, pressure for an explanation.

[AdumbroDeus]

-I don't like the argument about "weak town", experienced players, who won a scummy for what, etc... You're dismissing anyone who's actually done anything on this site that hasn't been recognized YET. It's complete WIFOM, and I don't like how FA has just latched on to Emp in defense. You're assuming that just because people haven't been on this site for very long, they're "weak" (except DP...go ahead and assume all you want). Way to dismiss "us."

Why is everyone taking this as a personal insult? You're completely missing the point and this tangent is distracting (hence why I already apologized for it).


The point is, he's a top player, nobody else is the game is, so it's reasonable for him as scum to believe that he can convince a town that is significantly weaker then himself to do something incredibly dumb, like mass-claiming.


Ballsy scum, yes, but unless he had either a crazy gambit or a PR that works with it, almost definitely scum.

[AdumbroDeus]

The reason everyone is bothered by it is because you're forgetting that this isn't the only place to play Mafia. I'd played for 2 years before I even started looking for somewhere to play online. People could be great players with plenty of experience, but be like singersinger and have joined less than a year ago.

STOP DISTRACTING FROM THE TOPIC AT HAND WITH YOUR FUCKING HURT EGOS! LYNCHING SCUM IS MORE IMPORTANT THEN BITCHING CAUSE I SAID EVERYONE'S E-PENIS SMALLER THEN EMP'S CAUSE IT WAS NECESSARY TO MAKE MY POINT!

1. EMP is presumably a top player, as shown by winning the scummy.

2. Regardless of experience, nobody in this game (myself included) is a top player, we are strong players AT BEST.

3. A top player can convince a strong player to do stupid shit or read them to hell and back making them look powerless, it happens all the time. (ex. here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_m9138477W8 where a strong player doesn't even get a single hit off a top player).

4. It is entirely plausible that EMP as a top player believed he could convince a town made up of strong players at best to do something that played right into his hand as scum.



But rather then reading the points I made and commenting on them logically, you're bitching about my estimation of your skill level. You REALLY think that you distracting from lynching scum by acting like a little bitch is gonna improve my opinion of your ability? Especially since I retracted my statement about this being a weak town already due to it being an overly harsh statement and distracting and said we're not as strong as EMP, or at the very least EMP has significant reason to believe we're not as strong as he is (which would be the deciding factor in whether or not to play a gambit like this).



So rather then bitching about everything like I killed your cat, why don't you PROVE you're a competent player? Is there any LOGICAL reason why you believe I'm incorrect?


Put up or shut up, cause all posts about you being insulted do is increase your postcount, they add NOTHING to the game.

[AdumbroDeus]

Adumb....you seem to making a bigger deal over experience levels than the people you are going off on. Whether your comments are valid or not...one or two one off retorts to your comment don't warrant your continued over reactions about your intent. Let it lie and it will die.

Because it's necessary to establish that he would at least perceive us as less effective players in order to establish any explanation for the massclaim whatsoever, otherwise I wouldn't touch on experience levels.


I'm pretty sure I've found scum, so I plan on focusing on him and getting him lynched. Only people's counter-arguments to him being scum are currently "I'm not a weak player" when town as a whole being weak (

myself included

) isn't even my argument right now (again, I backed off that because it was overly harsh and a distraction regardless), my argument is that EMP's

perception

is that there was enough of a skill gap between himself and town to allow for him to successfully force a massclaim through.


E-penis size is irrelevant and just side-tracking this discussion, but unfortunately anything tangentially related to comparing skill levels will inevitably get sidetracked into that discussion, which is why I'm bringing it back on course.




And no, I can't drop the issue, we need to lynch scum, which EMP almost definitely is unless he has a damn good explanation in which case, I'm listening.

YOU seem to be making a big deal out of something that's entirely WIFOM. You're willing to write off a scummy play because he's been "proven" to be a good player? And then calling us ignorant and over-emphasizing your penis with your font size...really not helping. To me, you've created an entirely different issue with how emotional you've become over it.

Misusing WIFORM, wiform is when both options are equally likely.

This case has a CLEAR advantage towards one side, so it's not WIFORM, it's looking at an action at face value.


Did you not notice me including myself in that? I never touched on my personal pride I was telling you to stop letting your collective pride get in the way of what's staring you in the face, and quite frankly this isn't really about how good we ACTUALLY are, this is about how good EMP perceives us to be.


Just laying it out on the table,

I probably suck compared to EMP in general

, I played in an entirely top players game in invitational 11 (cept me obviously) and got raped horribly. As far as I'm concerned, I'm one of the members of the "unwashed masses", only I have direct experience with top players attempting to pull the wool over town's eyes so I'm not buying it.


That wasn't emotion btw, that was emphasis, there was a major difference.



So now then, do you have any

LOGICAL

arguments as to why I'm incorrect?

@EMP

Laying aside the massclaim idea, who do you think is scum?

[AdumbroDeus]

EBWOP:

By "laying aside" I mean ignoring any reads you got from it.

And Adumbro and fallen angel, do you think disclaiming someone's experience and being called weaker has anything to do with them being scum?

Do you mean discrediting? Depends, figuring out how strong a player is has a lot to do with figuring out what tells work on them.

[AdumbroDeus]

If EMP flips town, DP is is likely scum attempting to use a town-flip to gain credibility.







I will again point to my core reasoning as well as suggest another possible reason (channeling Fate is obviously not working atm).

1. Because EMP believed he was strong enough compared to the rest of us to force a mass-claim.

2. Trying to force PRs to committ tells early in the game so they can be NK'd.

[AdumbroDeus]

The thing is though, the main reason against Emp (The MC) is blatant WIFOM.

DP seem's so certain of everything, and as I stated before, I'd take a certain lynch on someone who has the largest chance for anti-town play, over a probability flip like most other D1 lynches.

How is it WIFOM? Please explain.

[AdumbroDeus]

The thing is though, the main reason against Emp (The MC) is blatant WIFOM.

DP seem's so certain of everything, and as I stated before, I'd take a certain lynch on someone who has the largest chance for anti-town play, over a probability flip like most other D1 lynches.

How is it WIFOM? Please explain.

As mentioned before, Emp's suggestion of a MC seems to be much more beneficial to scum than town. So it's a huge scum tell, but a person such as Emp would know of that, and wouldn't make it as scum. Whether it's beneficial for the town is another question though.

Town has no reason to make themselves insanely scummy (somewhat scummy yes as a PR), so there's no town objective here.


WIFORM is basically multiple equally likely results, an example is:

I have two glasses of wine in front of me, one is poisoned, which one is it?



However, there's a very clear motive for scum here (MC is good as for scum, as is the PR tells they can generate by analyzing the claiming discussion), how does town benefit? Best case is town doesn't massclaim and knows enough to not drop PR tells in discussion, but we have less daylight and town is ended up focused on a townie.


Where's the town benefit? If you can find me an equally strong town benefit it's WIFORM, otherwise it's a scumslip and you're misusing the term.

[AdumbroDeus]

No.


Both of you (in fact the majority of the site) are misunderstanding the term.

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... ront_Of_Me


Head to head guessing game with no dominant strategy.


What I'm saying is there is a dominant strategy




Why?


Because his action objectively benefits one side, and at a certain point, scum can't act EXACTLY like town during day, their objective is to survive. So the dominant strategy when dealing with identifiable scummy actions identify them as such.


Town has no reason to perform such actions, so why would they?


TL;DR: You can say anything is WIFORM if you add enough factors to it, but the bottom line is scummy actions are scummy, and people who make scummy actions should be lynched.

[AdumbroDeus]

i feel like there's a bunch of people out there who haven't seen the princess bride and are misunderstanding the concept.


the point is, BOTH the glasses are poisoned.

This absolutely convinces me that you don't understand WIFORM as a concept, the scene that it takes it's name from is absolutely NOT a WIFORM situation as explained by the wiki in the game theory section (https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... ront_Of_Me) though how the line of thought proceeds is shown by the scene quite well.

(Ironically, the Princess Bride scene from which WIFOM derives its name does not fit the game-theory definition of WIFOM: It's a simple 50/50 guessing game. It would only be WIFOM if there were an inherent disadvantage to poisoning the wine that happened to lay closer to oneself or vice-versa.) (Even more ironically, the poison turned out to be in both glasses.)

Furthermore, there's a nice discussion of WIFORM in the mafia discussion board (title misspelled): viewtopic.php?f=5&t=15579




Vi's post (Second in the thread) gives a great explanation of this concept, pay special attention to the section I bolded: viewtopic.php?p=2605039#p2605039

Vi: *case case case* And thus I conclude that petroleumjelly is not just scum, but OBVIOUS scum and eats babies for lunch.

Vote: p-jelly

(L-8)
petroleumjelly: That is -probably- the dumbest case I've ever read.

Vote: Vi

Vi: I take it since you're voting me, you think I'm scum.
p'jelly: Um, yeah.
Vi: But I KNOW you're a super player. As scum I wouldn't even try to push a case on you because of how easily you could refute it and turn it against me. Admit it, it's suicide. Therefore since (contrary to popular belief) I'm not stupid, I'm most probably not scum.

The last statement is WIFOM - guessing into my own motives for doing what I did. Whether I'm more likely to be Town or scum pushing this case is something that cannot be objectively proven, but based on what you know of me you can take a good guess.

What gets people upset is when you deliberately make WIFOM arguments like I did. Scumhunting is based on finding out whether someone's actions make more sense from a Town point of view or a scum point of view. When you

know

that your actions only make sense from one point of view, you can abuse that by, say, doing something you would ONLY do as Town as scum. And when you have that level of self-awareness, it gets really difficult to use your actions to determine your alignment.

Apologies to pj

When you're trying to outguess motives, you're engaging in WIFORM, you take actions as what they ARE, engaging in this internal "but what if I'm making you think that I think that you think that I think that you think that I think".






So now that I've dropped a shitload of sources and educated everyone on mafia theory can we get back to lynching EMP-scum?

[AdumbroDeus]

...

The problem with me letting this go is that you're letting scum slip away using fallicous logic by turning something that isn't conceptually wifom into wifom. If you wanna clear scum by misinterpreting proper logic as fallicious logic, do it in a game that I'm not in please.


Wifom is bad because it's a fallacy, my line of reasoning clearly isn't a fallacy, therefore, we should lynch the scum.

[AdumbroDeus]

Scum needs to die if I need to spend time explaining basic mafia theory to people in order to make it happen. Your definition of wifom isn't logically fallicious so I'll accept that you have a different definition as long as you don't mention wifom ever again.

There's a scum benefit to a mass claim, but it's still WIFOM because a mass-claim was NEVER going to happen day 1. He knew that, we knew that, everyone knew that. Hence it is WIFOM. If there was a realistic chance of a mass claim occurring then maybe it wouldn't be wifom and it would be scummy but that was never going to happen.

Can we stop talking about WIFOM now????

Will it never happen D1? I have seen players that are significantly better then pretty much everyone in the game pull similar BS on multiple occasions.


Regardless there's a massive scum benefit to the proposition because it can bring a lot of PR tells.




One of DavidParker and EMP are scum, probably not both. EMP is by far the most likely here for obvious reasons.

[AdumbroDeus]

@singersigner

: Since the convo about wifom was with me, I very much doubt you meant nocman.

pretty much everyone

where y'all at? Comments? I especially wanna hear from

xenophon

.

[AdumbroDeus]

Oh, so you're actually planning on existing now.

Will it never happen D1? I have seen players that are significantly better then pretty much everyone in the game pull similar BS on multiple occasions.

Give us one.

You could've just read my previous posts, I already cited this.


http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=274820


Got convinced to let a confirmed indy live due to being "fair" to them. Primarily due to the fact that they were significantly better and more experienced then we were.

One of DavidParker and EMP are scum, probably not both. EMP is by far the most likely here for obvious reasons.

Which are?

That you attempted to start a massclaim d1.


Ok, so you exist now and aren't pretending to be a VI.


So why did you attempt to start a d1 massclaim?

[AdumbroDeus]

Before I do that though, I see I need to do a bit of housekeeping on the subject of mass-claiming of all things.

I do

NOT

support mass claiming Today.

I think that's an extremely bad idea, and I'm really surprised it's come from Empking of all people. Since this is a Mini Normal that's been reviewed by a team of 3 experienced mods, I'm going to assume that this game is balanced. As such, I think it can also be assumed that there likely isn't some kind of a major breaking strategy that mass-claiming would exploit. By mass-claiming, we'd only be helping the scum who is the informed minority for a reason. Towns usually need the added benefit or at least the PERCEIVED benefit of a few power roles to help sniff out the scum. And we have absolutely no clue what the scum even have in their arsenal either. So no. Just nonono.

You're exactly replicating my thoughts on the matter... so why you not voting EMP?

Massclaim as an idea is distracting at best, at worst it gives scum PR tells (assuming town doesn't follow it, and given the large gap between his skill and the initial town's, I'm not sure he would fail).

The mere proposition from an experienced scummer should be setting off alarm bells.

Will it never happen D1? I have seen players that are significantly better then pretty much everyone in the game pull similar BS on multiple occasions.

Give us one.

One of DavidParker and EMP are scum, probably not both. EMP is by far the most likely here for obvious reasons.

Which are?

This suggestion by Adumbro is ridiculous (since it's not true) and borderline scummy for setting up two mislynches. I'm struggling to find a scum-motive behind claiming something like this (since scum know it's not true), but it's enough to warrant my vote.

Vote: Adumbro

Try quoting what you're talking about.

It's not uncommon for scum to take the side of a townie that's gonna get lynched as an attempt to accrue town points when they flip "I told you so" effect. The thing is, when you're blatant enough about it, it becomes obvious that you KNOW they're town, and only scum knows the sides for sure.

I read a strong possibility that you're trying to do exactly that.

[AdumbroDeus]

You're exactly replicating my thoughts on the matter... so why you not voting EMP?

Currently, I'm leaning towards thinking that Empking is more likely town than scum for suggesting that we mass claim. I think it would be too bold a move for a scum Empking to make. I did toss the idea around in my head for a bit that he may have been thinking he could pull a fast one on a bunch of less experienced players, but after further thought I began to disregard it. Plus his activity level in this game seems much better than the one Empking-scum game that I played with him in it.

One game seems like a mighty small sample to draw reliable meta from.

Regardless, just proposing it significantly hampers town, it's a distraction and it makes it a lot more likely that PRs will drop tells. So why would town EMP would do it?

On a side note, I think you're grossly overestimating Empking's playing abilities. In case you didn't know, there are some people who push for an Empking policy lynch practically every game he plays in because they find him to be either unreadable or to be a huge detriment to the town. Don't let the Scummy that he ended up winning fool you into thinking that he's a God-like player.

I'm drawing a comparison to him and the other players in the game at the time, was the original playerlist particularly impressive?

I've been saying let's go pass it for a long time now.

Then how come everyone points out the disadvantages, you feel obligated to take them to task on it?

[AdumbroDeus]

@Incognito

: The issue with DP is not so much the "recklessness is a towntell" thing, that's true enough, but it's a minor tell at best. The real concern is how SURE he seems that EMP is town. My earlier comments in regards to their relationship stand.

@Empking

: viewtopic.php?p=2613039#p2613039, viewtopic.php?p=2612656#p2612656, viewtopic.php?p=2610154#p2610154, viewtopic.php?p=2605267#p2605267.


All after your 12th post where you mentioned you'd be willing to let it drop, there are all after that. Pretty much everything you've said is in regards to massclaim. I don't like how distracting you've been.

[AdumbroDeus]

When I get a town read on someone early, I state them as town. Feel free to check other games I am in and you'll see the same thing occurring.

Stating a relationship, given the circumstance and how sure you are of being right, I find that unlikely if he flips town.

Because for some crazy reason, he genuinely believed that it might actually be beneficial for the town? I completely agree with you when you say it's been a huge distraction and that it could have potentially forced PRs into dropping tells, but I'm still failing to see why Empking-scum would do something that bold when he'd have had to have known it would be an unpopular position to take that could potentially make him see the noose in a hurry. And yes, I realize this is subject to WIFOM, but so is everything that leads us to believe one player or another is town.

As for your other question, yes, it was an invitational just for Scummies Winners so the playerlist was impressive.

Excuse me if I find that very unlikely. Frankly, then it becomes a good strategy to do things that help scum which are blatently outside of your scummy meta because people will wiform themselves out of lynching you. Also, why isn't he trying to help town in any other way?

@Rhinox:

Good to see you again, I promise a stronger performance this game, given that the playerlist isn't quite as insane.

Now then, where's the confirmation bias? Please explain.

Furthermore, I don't see why you're so willing to clear people based on them simply being the center of attention, a number of players (myself included) generally try to be the center of attention regardless of alignment and more then likely there are occasional games where people just choose to take it.


If you think he's town, give me a reason to do this as town that actually makes sense.

At least some of them are you mistaking catching Lrd out in a lie and talking about mass claim.

Lrd: I've answered that question almost once a page (possibly an exageration). Because the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.

Firstly, about you catching him in a lie... I would assume he was using "more advantages then disadvantages" colloquially, because it is often used qualitatively rather then quantitatively. This is not an English class, if you wanna lynch him, I hope that you can find something with more substance then that.

Secondly, ok, I'll give you a chance to do something useful. Pick 3 people and ask them useful questions that don't relate to massclaiming at all.

[AdumbroDeus]

Now then, where's the confirmation bias? Please explain.

Nearly everyone one of your posts is about emp. Nearly all of your responses to others are regarding emp. Your in crazy paranoia land that "just because emp has a scummy he's going to manipulate us all and we're not even going to realize" - which is BS by the way. Your superbold screaming at us.

All after your 12th post where you mentioned you'd be willing to let it drop, there are all after that. Pretty much everything you've said is in regards to massclaim. I don't like how distracting you've been.

So I'm up to your post 31 in iso and pretty much all you said is in regards to mass claim.

I think I've said enough on the topic of confirmation bias...

Furthermore, I don't see why you're so willing to clear people based on them simply being the center of attention, a number of players (myself included) generally try to be the center of attention regardless of alignment and more then likely there are occasional games where people just choose to take it.

pro-tip: this was the point where you were supposed to say "hey rhinox, didn't you call DGB town in /invitational 11 for doing something questionable D0 to garner a lot of suspicion and become the center of attention and she was actually scum". Let me answer this by referring to a different quote of yours.

Town has no reason to make themselves insanely scummy (somewhat scummy yes as a PR), so there's no town objective here.

I think you've got it backwards. Town doesn't care if they look scummy because they're not (supposed to be) concerned with survival, they're concerned with catching scum. (that doesn't mean townies should throw all caution to the wind, but there is an entire thread in the MD about this...) Scum on the other hand, want to blend in, look town, and survive.

While there are some players who will do things to stand out as scum, in general, it's avoided. Look at plum's play in /invitiational 11 - and she's the one who should get a scummy for that game, not DGB, who got lynched.

So its just not good play for scum to intentionally put themselves in the center of attention and under heavy suspicion.

Frankly, I disagree, town roles also have certain appearance obligations, VT has to look obvious-town to catch NKs. PRs have to subtely control their scummyness in order to avoid both getting nk'd and lynched.

Granted, being reckless is townie more often then not, but at the same time, if something is completely boneheaded, if done by an experienced player, it's more often a scum move then not in my experience. I have quite a bit of experience with scum that is glad to attract attention (as well as some with the more normal, cautious scum), and it seems to me that he's playing that game.


As far as concentrating on him, I'm trying a new strategy, focusing on my scumtargets when I find them.

And if I was scum I would be interested in finding out what and where the PRs were and at the very least I would stay quiet on the subject of a MC for some length of time to see where it was headed. Rather than immediately jump to oppose it.

So, everyone but empking opposes mass claim. That means only empking is scum?

Of course not, so I hope you see how horrible a reason that is as evidence that you're town.

I would think you'd be looking into both fallenangel and confidanon/incognito, as both of them initially humored the idea of a mass claim. Do you think anyone in the game fits the description of "staying quiet on the subject of a MC for some length of time to see where it was headed."

I like that line of reasoning, however I think it would be a great deal more useful once we have a EMP flip to work with.

Regardless...if scum know no one would suspect them of being scum for doing something so scummy....then why not do it to be deemed town?

Look around... there's a number of people who find empking scummy. So obviously, empking isn't "scum who knew no one would suspect him for suggesting mass claim, so hi did it to look town."

If you take a look, people were relatively lukewarm about it, and the question of him being scum because of it didn't come up till I brought it up.

So, I think he could've been successful in convincing town to do so, and I doubt he was expecting the backlash he ultimately received.

Leaving this here to ensure that I see it when I go through later on in the game - Very noteworthy, I didn't notice Adumbro's focus with Emp in his posts.

Really? I thought I was pretty clear about it.

[AdumbroDeus]

If you take a look, people were relatively lukewarm about it, and the question of him being scum because of it didn't come up till I brought it up.

Not to tarnish your impression of yourself but you seem the have overlooked the exchange between Emp and I, along with my vote on him, before you ever weighed in on the subject. Thanks for bringing Emp's scumminess up

I didn't.

You tossed a vote on him, but overall you didn't really push scummyness out of it, it struck me as more of a theory disagreement tbh (though admittedly I didn't notice the vote during my reread initially, I blame concentrating on studying for my midterm).

Ultimately the vote was the only thing that suggested you found it scummy as opposed to just dumb, it wasn't like you were really pushing a case on him then, and it wasn't until I started pushing a case that the entire town turned solidly against the idea.

[AdumbroDeus]

@EMP:

Care to answer my questions?
viewtopic.php?p=2616953#p2616953

Wow. You hold yourself in very high esteem.

I 'tossed a vote on him' because I think he is scum. Some people play a variation of mafia where they vote for the people they think are scum. I would say first vote and several exchanges would equate to introduing the idea of Emp as scum.

With all your helpful theory lessons, kind assessments of your fellow (but obviously lesser) players, and your misguided "I introduced the idea Emp was scum first" chest thumping you definitely deserve a gold star after the game.

I wonder if there is a Gold Star Scummy?

BTW...if Emp does wind up being the lynch and flips town...you can have all credit of convincing town (all one other Emp votes ATM) you want

@ town...sorry for the slight distraction on my part. The game is dragging and I couldn't resist. Perhaps if more people were posting it would be easier to stay on track.

Vote Emp! (like AD said)

Nah, I suck.

Whatev, we'll discuss chest-thumping post-game but extolling myself wasn't the objective. The point I was trying to get across was that while a massclaim isn't gonna happen now, but it certainly was a valid possibility since most of the town was lukewarm and you were the only person to staunchly oppose it.

[AdumbroDeus]

EBWOP: I meant care to answer my challenge, not questions.

[AdumbroDeus]

[]b]FoS: AD[/b] There were no questions so yuou were just trying to mislead the town.

Which is why I EBWOP'd to say that it was a challenge, not questions...


Now please meet my challenge and ask people 3 questions useful questions unrelated to massclaiming. kthanxbie

@everyone:

What do you think of EMP's "catching Lrd in a lie" and EMP's ignoring my EBWOP?

[AdumbroDeus]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: fallen angel


Fine, EMP for tomorrow then, not letting a no lynch happen.

[AdumbroDeus]

Just recieved prod, will post when I have a sec to do so.