Mini 1075 - Fishtown Mafia

[singersigner]

/confirm

[singersigner]

VOTE: DavidParker

He's a policy lynch in all my games now (except I don't PL...but you get the idea).

[singersigner]

Hey guys, this game started quick. I thought I'd get through my

V/LA today, tomorrow, and Sunday

before it started, but in any case...

I'm pretty up in the air on a mass claim. I don't see how it could help us on D1, and I guarantee DP is gunna claim something stupid, and it will be wrong. Point blank. We can't trust anything he says. In the last three games I've seen him play in, he's claimed a PR as a VT. I don't think I'll move my RVS vote, because I want to see what he says

this time

.

Also, Lrdwhyt and everyone...I don't see the advantage of everyone claiming VT. Doesn't really get us anywhere, now does it?

RQS!!!
1. What can we expect from you activity-wise?
2. What time zone are you in?
3. Are there any circumstances in which you would hammer someone you believe to be innocent?
4. What generation are you in/from?
5. I'm OCD and needed a fifth "question."

[singersigner]

After a 24 hour day that preceded 4 hours of sleep that followed another ridiculously long day in itself...I'm beat. But letting you know that I have read, and am currently waiting for the information to process in my head. I'm sure I'll have responses to your responses to my questions/the most recent developments by tomorrow (and yes, I'll be answering them myself, too, since someone seemed to get all butt-hurt about me not doing it before ). My LA continues for only a short while longer.

[singersigner]

Ok, so not that it matters any more, but I didn't plan on leaving my own questions unanswered, so why not...
1. What can we expect from you activity-wise?
-Well, my brief stint of V/LA is over. I should be able to post at least once per day. More if I find something worth responding to/time permits.
2. What time zone are you in?
-Mountain.
3. Are there any circumstances in which you would hammer someone you believe to be innocent?
-Entirely innocent? Probably not. If it's the difference between a lynch and a no lynch (like, a matter of hours before deadline), and my arguments for a counter-wagon haven't taken off, I will.
4. What generation are you in/from?
-I'm the fiscally conservative, socially liberal generation. Thank my parents and college for that.
5. I'm OCD and needed a fifth "question."
-yeah...

Anyway, there's not much of a point in analyzing the answers to my questions just yet, considering how much activity there's been mutually exclusive from that. I'll reference back to it dependent on later play.

As for right now...
-I agree with Lrdwhyt about not mass-claiming.
-I disagree with Fallen Angel about not lynching people for stupid cases...I generally catch scum when they're grasping for things to make a case with.
-Nocman, just look at DP's previous games and you will quickly learn why anyone would think he's incompetent.
-I don't like the argument about "weak town", experienced players, who won a scummy for what, etc... You're dismissing anyone who's actually done anything on this site that hasn't been recognized YET. It's complete WIFOM, and I don't like how FA has just latched on to Emp in defense. You're assuming that just because people haven't been on this site for very long, they're "weak" (except DP...go ahead and assume all you want). Way to dismiss "us."

I'm too tired from being sick all weekend, so I'm going to finish my catch-up analysis later.

Also, to whomever misunderstood that I was looking for a policy lynch on DP...no, it was an RVS vote, that was actually pretty effective, due to his natural stupidity. I'm keeping my vote where it is.

[singersigner]

But rather then reading the points I made and commenting on them logically, you're bitching about my estimation of your skill level. You REALLY think that you distracting from lynching scum by acting like a little bitch is gonna improve my opinion of your ability? Especially since I retracted my statement about this being a weak town already due to it being an overly harsh statement and distracting and said we're not as strong as EMP, or at the very least EMP has significant reason to believe we're not as strong as he is (which would be the deciding factor in whether or not to play a gambit like this).

ACTUALLY.

YOU seem to be making a big deal out of something that's entirely WIFOM. You're willing to write off a scummy play because he's been "proven" to be a good player? And then calling us ignorant and over-emphasizing your penis with your font size...really not helping. To me, you've created an entirely different issue with how emotional you've become over it.

The reason this is my first game proposing a mass claim is because I think early MC is the best case in Mini normals and just mini normals and even then only when its plain like this one. (themes are crazy and larges are VT's infected)

Everyuone, I want a mass claim because its the best play. Just for that reason.

No. "According to ADB," you've been around here long enough to know that when the town has decided as a whole that something is a bad idea/really fucking stupid, you don't push it. But you pushed it, and now we're trying to figure out if that's just scummy, or stupid.

I've looked through DP's other games, and I have nothing wrong with keeping my vote on him, he definitely seems like at best a detriment to the town.

Can you embellish a little? In the games I've seen with him, I've

really

seen them. I've watched each of them pan out, and know exactly what DP does...but can you say the same just from browsing through? I just want to be confident that you think he's more than just a VI, and not just using Meta against him.

[singersigner]

I've looked through DP's other games, and I have nothing wrong with keeping my vote on him, he definitely seems like at best a detriment to the town.

Can you embellish a little? In the games I've seen with him, I've

really

seen them. I've watched each of them pan out, and know exactly what DP does...but can you say the same just from browsing through? I just want to be confident that you think he's more than just a VI, and not just using Meta against him.

The notion that I am a VI is preposterous and just a quick look at some of my recent games will make it obvious that I have done all my "strange/crazy/non-sensical" actions with a purpose in mind. But really, we should be looking at this game and not discussing player meta and game theory at this point.

Aaaahhh...I don't see a point in you 1) forgetting your role, 2)THREE EFFING TIMES false-claiming as a VT, 3) stopping by every now and then with no contributions except to either defend yourself, or post fluff.

I'm sure you're a very nice individual in real life.

[singersigner]

i feel like there's a bunch of people out there who haven't seen the princess bride and are misunderstanding the concept.


the point is, BOTH the glasses are poisoned.

WORD.

[singersigner]

i feel like there's a bunch of people out there who haven't seen the princess bride and are misunderstanding the concept.


the point is, BOTH the glasses are poisoned.

This absolutely convinces me that you don't understand WIFORM as a concept, the scene that it takes it's name from is absolutely NOT a WIFORM situation as explained by the wiki in the game theory section (https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... ront_Of_Me) though how the line of thought proceeds is shown by the scene quite well.

(Ironically, the Princess Bride scene from which WIFOM derives its name does not fit the game-theory definition of WIFOM: It's a simple 50/50 guessing game. It would only be WIFOM if there were an inherent disadvantage to poisoning the wine that happened to lay closer to oneself or vice-versa.) (Even more ironically, the poison turned out to be in both glasses.)

Furthermore, there's a nice discussion of WIFORM in the mafia discussion board (title misspelled): viewtopic.php?f=5&t=15579




Vi's post (Second in the thread) gives a great explanation of this concept, pay special attention to the section I bolded: viewtopic.php?p=2605039#p2605039

Vi: *case case case* And thus I conclude that petroleumjelly is not just scum, but OBVIOUS scum and eats babies for lunch.

Vote: p-jelly

(L-8)
petroleumjelly: That is -probably- the dumbest case I've ever read.

Vote: Vi

Vi: I take it since you're voting me, you think I'm scum.
p'jelly: Um, yeah.
Vi: But I KNOW you're a super player. As scum I wouldn't even try to push a case on you because of how easily you could refute it and turn it against me. Admit it, it's suicide. Therefore since (contrary to popular belief) I'm not stupid, I'm most probably not scum.

The last statement is WIFOM - guessing into my own motives for doing what I did. Whether I'm more likely to be Town or scum pushing this case is something that cannot be objectively proven, but based on what you know of me you can take a good guess.

What gets people upset is when you deliberately make WIFOM arguments like I did. Scumhunting is based on finding out whether someone's actions make more sense from a Town point of view or a scum point of view. When you

know

that your actions only make sense from one point of view, you can abuse that by, say, doing something you would ONLY do as Town as scum. And when you have that level of self-awareness, it gets really difficult to use your actions to determine your alignment.

Apologies to pj

When you're trying to outguess motives, you're engaging in WIFORM, you take actions as what they ARE, engaging in this internal "but what if I'm making you think that I think that you think that I think that you think that I think".






So now that I've dropped a shitload of sources and educated everyone on mafia theory can we get back to lynching EMP-scum?

I think I would take you a lot more seriously if you didn't keep referring to it as "WIFO

R

M."

Also, yes, there's a difference between the movie and game-theory, but if you don't even allow yourself to relate the two, then we have a problem. What you just did was post a lot of fluff and completely distract everyone from your argument.

Why is it so important to you that we understand

your

definition of what WIFOM is? The differences are subtle, but you're being too stubborn to understand why we (yes we, as a collective), disagree with the one you're using. The fatal flaw in your defense, is saying "oh no! I'm not using WIFOM!" when in fact, the reason we're pointing it out, is because you're setting it up to be such. Whether you've actually engaged in it yet, or you're about to, we still don't want you to. So stop it.

[singersigner]

Did I just agree with DP...

[singersigner]

I did...more or less...

I don't like the fact that there were only 6 posts for all of Thursday, and I had two of them. Have we not gotten anywhere with this whole WIFOM argument thing? I'm honestly starting to believe Nocman's scum simply because he allowed the town to get so distracted from scum-hunting because of it. He refused to even accept that the rest of us had come to a consensus that we had one definition for the argument, and he had another. The only reason I can see for him being so stubborn about him protecting Empking with such a shotty reason, is if they were scum buddies.

OR he's scum trying to gain town cred from "such an experienced player" by defending him.

OR he's town that's really gotten a skewed perception of his alignment, defending someone who's gunna get away with a ridiculously scummy action.

[singersigner]

Yeah, my B. I must've had Nocman on my mind for some reason...
/horny internet perv
/sarcasm

[singersigner]

Checking in. Sorry about the stint of MIA. The weekend was much more engaging than I thought it would be.

In any case, I will UNVOTE: DavidParker, as I no longer really see him as scum. He's playing a much better game than I've ever seen him play on this site, and however ironic that might be against his meta as town, I don't think playing better is a scum tell, haha.

Right now, my top scum reads are Adumbro, Nocman, and Empking, in that order. I will come back with more details on those reads later.

[singersigner]

Hmm...
I've gotten very little sleep in the past 4 days (and by very little, I mean 10 hours total). I honestly can't function very well, and can't for the life of me remember why I listed my scum reads like that.
*I agree that Empking is most likely town for allowing himself to be the center of attention so early on in the game (though I also agree that it's not a tell...just the way I'm interpreting this particular situation).
*I have to look at AD again, because I originally thought his defense of Epmking's claim was fishy, and looked like blatant buddying...but now he's voting for Emp, so...
*I'll do an ISO on Nocman again, because my read on him was gut. I'm gunna look back to see if anything jumps out at me, or if maybe I'm just dumb and tired.

Right now, the only solid read I have for town is Rhinox. I agree with everything he has to say in his 201 post, and for that, I will VOTE: fallen angel.

I do question this, though:

I mean, this is basically saying, "Hey, I'm not a PR but I don't want scum to know all our PR's". Guess what would happen if everyone who's not a PR would say they're not a PR...? Thats what empking was talking about earlier with the "soft vanilla claim" thing. If you're town, its anti town because you're making it easier for scum to find the PR's, and if you're scum, its... idk really. Maybe you were hoping someone else would say "I don't have anything to claim either". But if you're going to claim vanilla on page 3 or whatever, you might as well be for a mass claim.

Unless someone voluntarily offers up a claim other than VT, with no prompting other than the possible L-1, I have a hard time believing anyone would say, oh hey, mass claim, time to out myself as a PR! As scum, I don't think I would afford trusting anyone's soft-claims as a VT. PR's want to hide, right? Whether or not they make a point of saying "I have nothing to claim" is WIFOM.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~I'm waaaaay too tired to double check that this made sense, and reading over it again, it probably doesn't, but I just needed to get my thoughts on that out there. I'll clarify tomorrow if I need to.

HF: Or Cruelty. Yes so far my scum reads have been on people that are against mass claim (AKA everyone) but I think there's an obvious reason for that (a clue is hidden in this very post)

I honestly have no idea what you mean by this. Care to explain?

@DavidParker...what? I JUST said I was having more confidence in your play...why'd you have to go and ruin it like that...

@ADB...I like your latest contributions, even though I don't necessarily agree with your vision of "center of attention."

Furthermore, I don't see why you're so willing to clear people based on them simply being the center of attention, a number of players (myself included) generally try to be the center of attention regardless of alignment and more then likely there are occasional games where people just choose to take it.

There's a difference between being up in people's faces about their posts (drawing attention), and then doing some huge move that could very clearly be taken as scummy, but willing to risk it anyway for what you *mistakingly* think is the best for town.

Don't get me wrong, I did, and still do, think it was the worst idea ever. In my head, all I picture us doing is one by one saying, hey I'm just a VT, too! The outcome of the

reactions

to the suggestion was the most important thing, not the outcome of the suggestion itself. I mean, really, Emp, did you actually think it was going to pan out?

[singersigner]

Oh...you made it all cryptic and stuff...insomnia is not conducive to analysis/understanding. But yeah, for how dumb it sounds, it makes sense.

[singersigner]

I'm indifferent to a mass claim actually, I don't think it will help us tremendously but I don't think it will hurt us greatly either. We shouldn't be relying on PRs as it is.

Oh dear...

Ok, I think I wouldn't be aaasss opposed to a mass claim, if DP wasn't in this game. He's fake-claimed in every game I've seen him in, as a

townie

. If we did a mass claim at this point, I guarantee he'll eff it up in all sorts of ways for us, scum or not.

Have any of you been in a game where scum suggested a massclaim at an early stage of the game...say D1 or D2?

I'm wondering...what the point of this question is...

[singersigner]

Have any of you been in a game where scum suggested a massclaim at an early stage of the game...say D1 or D2?

I'm wondering...what the point of this question is...

To see if anyone has seen scum suggest a massclaim at an early stage of the game. I'd be curious to see how it worked out for them.

Ok. I was taking it a couple different ways. 1. exactly what you said, or 2. a backwards defence of Empking, saying "well hey, scum never does this, so he's not scum."

Just checking. And no, I've never seen it, but I also haven't been around this site for that long. I just think that a mass claim so early in anything other than a large game, or marathon game is pointless, because I don't know of anyone dumb enough to claim anything other than VT this early, except...*coughDavidParkercough*

[singersigner]

singersigner, care to explain?

This is an acknowledgement post. I'll get back to it when I'm off work/finish homework for the night.

It's also weird to me that I wasn't mentioned in her 218 at all.

Someone get jealous?
No but really, I'm not sure why that's weird...I didn't address everyone...did I?

[singersigner]

Not jealous, no. I just found it weird since portions of my summary post did include how I found you suspicious. If you were town, I'd think you'd want to question me about that rather than completely ignore it.

Can you point out what exactly it was that I ignored?

Also...I don't know what scaremongering is...

[singersigner]

Nocman, tell me, did you feel like you could get another wagon on me in less than a day? I ask because I'm not your only "leaning scum" read, but I'm probably the least likely to create a new wagon. We only have about 2 hours left...and I really don't want this to end in a no-lynch for the day.

[singersigner]

Not agreeing with a lynch is fine. Allowing the first day to finish without a lynch is not. I'm not ok with that.

[singersigner]

Vote: Singer

I'm gunna have to ask you to explain this one, as it is highly anti-town.

Nocman, you're fine. You already cast your suspicions of me, as much as I disagree for obvious reasons.

[singersigner]

Gah...busy weekend got away from me...coming back tomorrow with more thoughts. I'm really sorry about this. I'll catch up when I have time tomorrow. =/

[singersigner]

Lrdwhyt has been prodded

I probably should've been prodded, too...

But anyway, I gave my computer to my fiance to borrow after his was stolen, so I'm working on catching up in my games. It's Thanksgiving, but that shouldn't hinder me too much. Be back soon.

Oh aaand...

Happy Thanksgiving!

<---I'm green from stuffing my face with food. XD

[singersigner]

I suck. My entire family got sick (and by sick, I mean vomiting and the like) while I was home for Thanksgiving. I should've given forewarning that my games would fall by the waist-side for a few days, so for not doing that, I'm really sorry.

At this point, I'm going to have to go back and look to remember why I thought FA was a good lynch. I think I thought he was a better vote than most at the time (this is what I'll have to go back and check for), and by the time deadline was approaching, there wasn't much else.
Reasons being:
-I didn't find Empking worth taking a look at yet because it was a fool's errand to suggest a mass-claim D1, and I think it would only become a policy/easy mislynch target is we pursued it right away.
-DP is a hard one to figure out. This is the first game I've seen him in where he hasn't claimed...anything. His meta suggests he only does this as town.
Now:
-Corvuus is still under somewhat of a spot-light from yesterday, and hasn't really done much to deter it. His vote on Empking looks opportunistic.
-I have yet to really understand why Nocman, HF, and neko find me scummy except for buddying with Rhinox on the FA wagon (and possible suspicions of me lurking?). It seems to me that none of them find Rhinox as scummy, so my curiosity lies in wondering why simply agreeing with someone makes me scummy. Could it be that you feel as though I should've been the one to bring up these points sooner? If it were me that made the case against FA, and Rhinox agreeing, would you find him equally as scummy as you find me now?
-Re-read Neko's incoming post (who did he replace again?)...I like it. Rational, well thought-out responses that address very legitimate things. Yeah...I probably came on too strong with DP. I just really don't like playing with him (sorry dude). Kind of scares me sometimes...

I'm not putting a vote on someone quite yet. My top two suspects would be Corvuus and DP. Corv's top two look a little opportunistic to me. Seems a little easy to keep the beef on someone who got a lot of heat yesterday, and the person who led your predecessor's wagon D1. DP...is actually not an RVS policy lynch for once. It genuinely concerns me that he seems to be playing a much more careful game this time around.

Also, I will find it hard to be persuaded to lynch Emp today.

[singersigner]

Actually, I don't think even DP is dumb enough to skate by with a no-lynch. Either Corvuus is scum, or both of them were on his wagon, so thoughts on that later. DP, consider this a free VI pass from me.

Oh yeah, Emp asked me a while ago why I thought his post was anti-town. Even when I asked him to explain, he never did...which is the original reason I thought it was anti-town. Not giving reasons doesn't help town.

That hasn't changed, so I think I've been persuaded enough to VOTE: Empking.

More, less jumbled, thoughts later.

[singersigner]

*sigh*
Antihero...yes, we meet again. Didn't you learn from our last game together?

[singersigner]

Empking is one of the most townish people due to his proposed massclaim and his early behavior + being the object of crap attacks.

As the townishness of the votee increases, the suckage of the vote also increases.

Yes, but that's not why my vote was on him. Durr. Though I understand how you might've thought that...except I said it was because he hadn't answered my question...which is actually a moot point now (gawd I needed to catch up badly in this game). UNVOTE: I still don't like how he completely evaded my question in the first place. Like I said, voting without a reason is anti-town.

Also, Antihero, I was talking about the FvEvE one, not Flam's. I don't even wanna talk about Flam's...oy, lol.

neko2086:
1. I really don't know. I don't trust him. He's like drmyshotty or vezok...kind of sucks to have them around because they're loose canons (generally just bad and/or anti-town play, so you can never trust if it's scummy or VI).
2. I AM looking to see Corvuus' flip. Mostly because Rhinox led the wagon. At least one of the two is likely to be scum because the lynch didn't follow through. I feel as though we can also get more information from this flip about those hesitant to switch wagons.
3. I didn't really change my mind on Emp. As I was re-reading the game, I noticed that Emp completely disregarded a question I asked, but since I kind of went A-Wall after that, I couldn't push it before, and it's useless to push now. I'm 90% convinced he's town.

[singersigner]

"Evading questions" is a pretty crappy scumtell, because a lot of questions are stupid and shouldn't be dignified with even a second of thought.

Hence why I'm letting it go, dude.

And I didn't backtrack. I never changed my stance on Empking.

[singersigner]

I really wish you would either pay more attention, or not misrep.

My desire to have my questions addressed was more important at the time. Because it no longer takes precedence, I no longer need a pressure vote. Sorry that happened too quickly for comprehension.

[singersigner]

I don't really see the point in claiming at this point for several reasons:
1. If I'm a PR, this will out me and I'm gone tonight anyway,
2. If I'm scum, I claim a PR to save myself a lynch, and create WIFOM tomorrow,
3. If I'm scum, I claim VT then why would you believe me now, since you put me at L-1 for a reason,
4. If I'm VT, I claim VT, see #3,
5. If I'm VT, I claim PR and potentially "out" the other PR, losing a townie and PR in one foul swoop.

So you see why I don't see any reason to claim?

I'm going to ask that at least no one hammers until deadline. I don't feel as though my death is eminent just yet, but in case I'm wrong, not allowing me to posts final thoughts at this point would just be foul play. Unless you just wanted time to run out and trust that I'll post my thoughts accordingly. Apparently that works, too, haha.

In the meantime:
-Antihero, what about that doesn't make sense? Also, yes, why IS Nocman scum?
-Corv, are you voting me out of PoE...because that never really makes sense this early in the game.

[singersigner]

Ok, I just read over Cruelty/Antihero's ISO. Cruelty basically went along with the whole not-liking the MC idea, generically, not really anything to say about that. But the first half of his ISO consists of saying why it's bad, and the second half consists of consistently flaking. Anti comes in and doesn't give us any of the reads that replacements usually get. Granted, the game has been pretty stagnant for a while, and he clearly states the whole MC debacle gives him a headache (as it did/does to us all), but he honestly doesn't do a whole lot of scum-hunting from before he replaced. He's simply arguing what's happening now, which to me, doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Basically, I haven't seen a lot from either of them (DP either, but I can't bring myself to lynch him yet), and can fully get on board for an Antihero lynch.

[singersigner]

I don't want to vote yet because that's keeping me accountable for giving the rest of my reads before the day is up. You do know where my vote is going, though.

I will be

LA

tomorrow due to a football game they decided to have on a day we have classes (AWESOME). But I will vote with the rest of my reads (this will mostly consist of FA/Corv, AD/Scott, and a brief overview of everyone else) Friday night at the latest (3 days means deadline's Saturday, right?).

Sorry for all the parenthetical splices.

[singersigner]

Huh. Recent play is making me rethink what's going on, and potentially wanting to go back to my original read on FA. Antihero hasn't said anything since he got a bit of heat a couple days ago, so my scum-read on him hasn't changed, but I feel like Corv has dug himself into a hole at this point. I won't hammer until I follow through with my promised post of reads, but I definitely won't let us go with a no-lynch again.

And it seems as though claiming is still important to you guys (though I feel it benefits mafia more than town, IMHO...and who pushed for that...*ahem*Corvuus*ahem*), so here's my measly little Vanilla Townie claim.

Also, Corv, you have a lot of nerve saying that fake claiming a PR as a VT isn't a viable option. It's been done numerous times around this site, and for more than just wanting to save someone's butt. DP here likes to claim he was a large factor in securing a town win by doing so in NY 118.

[singersigner]

Ok, well I already posted how I felt about Antihero...as far as the other players in this game:
DavidParker: Has played surprisingly better than he has in the other games I've seen him in. I would say he's just getting better at this game, though the recent vote hoping is flipping him right back to where he started.

Empking: I feel as though anyone would know that a MC would cause a riot, and be cause for any sort of quick-lynch, HOWEVER, this did not happen, which makes me think he might've been protected by FA, who later backtracked and felt as though it would be better to be on the damning side of a MC than the supporting one. I think if he stays around, he can contribute to VC/NK analysis later.

Nocman: His D1 play was fairly genuine, though gut made me think his seemingly under-the-radar play put him on the scum-team. His D2 play has been better, though, and since then made me believe he has the towns best interest at heart. I disagree with Rhinox's assessment of his "opportunistic" vote on Corv because it's very clear that he pointed out reason beyond a doubt to place a vote at this point in the game (something I didn't do D1 which made me look all the more scummy).

Havingfitz: I don't understand his reasonings for any of his votes today. Emp was clearly not flying yet, since I think people agree that it's "not his time" or whatever. There are just clearly scummier players in this game. I don't know why he would policy lynch someone (Lrd) for not being around today and contributing. I call it that because not being around isn't a case, and not lynch-worthy. His suspicions of me earlier in the game explain a potential vote on me, but voting me while saying he doesn't remember why I'm scummy only follow up on his weak cases/votes before.

Neko: I've agreed with your play thus far. The only thing I question is why you think Corv is an easy lynch? Is it not good to follow through with where we failed yesterday?


So I still have a couple more, but it's on a rolling basis, and I know I've kind of left you guys hanging, so I'm throwing this out there now. I'll fill in more blanks and finish with Rhinox and Scott(+replacee) later. I'm not sure that I have much of a read on Lrdwhyt...

Question to Corv: would you self-hammer to ensure that town doesn't no-lynch again?

Cheers.

[singersigner]

VOTE: Corvuus

[singersigner]

Singer: Why a self hammer as opposed to yourself hammering?

It was simply to see how much saving his life mattered to him. If it got to the point where no one was going to hammer, would he be selfish enough to let us go with a no-lynch and gain nothing from his flip, scum or not. And for the record, I don't like the whole AtE he's throwing in there. "When I flip town..." It doesn't help anyone. I'd rather just know the information he'd like us to use to our advantage if he flips town, since if he flips scum, we're obviously on our own for that one.

Neko, sorry, that was my bad. I should've written it down, but yeah, if you really wanted to play that way, then you'd be voting for DP right now, not me.

DP, you should switch your vote back.

[singersigner]

Singer: I have no idea what to say to you since you are obviously thinking of a different player. Neko asked you to claim when he said that #5 should never be considered. Not me. So I will note that your comment and point is opportunistic since I can't see how you would mix Neko and me up and I also think it is ironic that you say i have a lot of nerve in saying such a thing (when I didn't) when I think all of you have a lot of nerve in blatantly lying and misrepresentating everything that is in this game and not caring about it.

Sorry!!! That was seriously my bad. But when you say that we're ALL blatantly lying and misrepresenting

everything

in this game, I really don't know what you mean. It would behoove you to enlighten ALL of us, I feel, unless you wanted to be called out on a misrep of your own.

In the meantime:
-Antihero, what about that doesn't make sense? Also, yes, why IS Nocman scum?

Oh, so nocman isn't your buddy.

Oh, so why didn't you just answer the legitimate question instead of deflecting it with sarcasm?

[singersigner]

So, I'm really glad havingfitz decided to leave his vote on me even though he didn't remember why he thought I was scummy. That's cool.

Nocman, you didn't have to move your vote unless you really didn't trust that I wasn't going to come back and hammer Corv.

I still don't understand why Corv/FA is getting away with this AGAIN. Pleasepleaseplease promise that you guys will figure it out tomorrow.

[singersigner]

UGH. THIS GAME WAS THE DUMBEST THING TO WATCH EVER.

You guys suck for not lynching D1 OR D3.

uuuuuuugh.

[singersigner]

Oh geez...day talk is not even fair...

[singersigner]

I don't think it matters how well scum uses daytalk. Not using it is the equivalency of not sending in a night action. It's the fact that it can be very powerful. Much more powerful than one town PR.

But you're right, the fact that we went with TWO FUCKING NO LYNCHES just because people "didn't agree so-and-so was scummier than so-and-so" was just dumb. I had even asked Corv if he would hammer at one point when he replaced in just so that wouldn't happen.