Mini 1075 - Fishtown Mafia

[cruelty]

sup

[cruelty]

ok hey. i'm in new zealand so i'm basically a day ahead of the usa. hence my inactivity thus far; halloween baby. anyway, it's sunday and i'm feeling a bit shady so i'll keep this brief.


1: disagree with an early mass-claim. the reasons why have been covered by others, but basically i'm very dubious about early scumreads. so, if we discount early scumreads as invalid (based on a lack of information), we're therefore massclaiming in what's more or less a random order, which obviously has potential benefits for scum.
2: i'm also not filled with joy at the idea of a late d1 massclaim. reasoning - we'd have to commit to doing it now, which is also to scum's benefit. i generally think that the best way for town to play is controlled chaos - we do our own thing until the stars align and someone slips up, at which point we all embrace our canine side and wolf pack the shit out of the person in question.

[cruelty]

We wouldn't have to commit to it now any more than we would a D2 or D3 claim. Can you explain your reasoning behind why we would?

perhaps poorly worded.

a massclaim is ridiculous on page 3 of day one, and we can't at this point say "yeah it's a viable strategy for later in the day" because it gives scum the opportunity to prepare (eg: breadcrumbing etc). whether or not they can actually use it to their advantage is neither here nor there, i just don't see the point in giving them the chance.


[the difference between a d1 and a d2/3 massclaim is that later on in the game they're a) more or less impromptu (ie: not telegraphed (literal) days in advance) and b) we'll have concrete facts to work with (lynches, nks, possibly night actions etc).]

Empking is probably town despite his horrible mass-claim idea.

uhh. why?

my dislike for people declaring town reads is superseded by my dislike for reads with no reasoning.

[cruelty]

Well I have a huge like for calling people town with no reason. Get used to it.

Or just vote me off.

how is this attitude helpful in any way?

[cruelty]

ok.

i'm struggling to see the logic behind a day one, page (3, 4 etc) massclaim. AD summed my feelings up pretty well;

Look, he has a scummy for best town performance, there's no way I can believe he'd just be misguided about something as simple as massclaiming d1 on a normal. Being on for a while doesn't mean anything, that's correct, but when you win a scummy, that establishes that you have a high level of competence, at least at the side that you played.

So, misguided town is ridiculously unlikely, no, he did something mad scummy, he needs to explain himself, fast.

i'm gonna

vote empking

i am concerned at the massive stumbling block this is creating for town. i mean, if emp is scum then fine, but i believe that he

is

a competent player (i don't think a scummy = super saiyan but there is a certain level of ability implied) which (as has been said) creates a gordion knot of wifom which we need to at least attempt to unravel before we slice and dice. i find it hard to believe that a player proven to be competent would suggest such a flawed plan and then wage a war of defiance, which implies scum (or ulterior motive). and i find it hard to believe that scum... whatever.


i think davidparker's absolute insistence that empking is town is worrying, but the flipside here is that he's proven to be incompetent. so such a statement coming from him is less scummy and more classic dave. he's a sideshow; we need to sit through the main event here, and we need to work out how to deal with it.

I agree here. It seems very unlikely for scum to push so hard for power roles to be outed openly, seeing as a mass claim does make them have to stick to a claim day 1. Without knowing the setup, that's not an ideal situation for scum. Barring wifom, a scum would not make themselves the prime center of attention this early in the game in a theory discussion like this.

this is slightly more interesting than david's assertion. this is agreeing with (but notably not initiating) the idea that emp is town, and putting forward a logical (albeit basically meaningless with the admission of the possibility of wifom) basis for this belief. especially in light of his previous post, which included this;

However, I see the arguments both pro- and anti-MC

if you can see the arguments against mass-claim, why do you agree with a fundamentally baseless townread? really, you should be null on empking at this point if you can see the flaws in his argument.

[cruelty]

i can see where ad is coming from. not entirely sure i agree, but eh.

for me, it boils down to the fact that empking is experienced and has history which suggests competence. the issue, therefore, is whether or not an experienced, competent player would suggest an illogical course of action.

i don't think the calibre of opposition really matters. of a more pressing concern for me is the lack of a decent reason behind the push for a massclaim. yes, he's given reasons for a d1 massclaim, but not really convincing ones, and i also find the tone of the explanations to not really be that genuine; there's a certain lack of urgency or conviction (this isn't really quotable, it's just how i'm reading his posts, specifically in his iso posts 4 and 10).



(ps AD, is there a difference between wifom and wiform?)

(pps nocmen, i was going to answer your question about DP's competence but it seems it's been resolved)

[cruelty]

DP:

WHY are they a good combo to look at?

WHY is empking town?


the fact is, this game hinges on justifying your reads. it's fine to have gut reads but if you're not at least detailing the process by which you came to your conclusions they're fundamentally meaningless.


your entire game seems to consist of saying something with no justification and then... well that's about it. it's unhelpful in the extreme.


preview edit:

emp i'm not entirely sure that's actually a vanilla claim, given that he goes on to say that "any PR stupid enough to claim is just going to out themself into an easy NK". it's pretty null, even within the context of a single sentence.

(for the record though i don't really have a problem with early vanilla claims, i'd think they'd generally tend to imply vanilla or scum, not town pr).

[cruelty]

AD what the hell are you talking about?

you seem to be misunderstanding wifom. it's like this;


he is obviously scum because town wouldn't push for such an illogical maneuver (d1 massclaim).

but then, he's also obviously (dumb) town because scum wouldn't push their own agenda so obviously.

but then, he's obviously scum because he knows that we as town would realise that scum wouldn't be so obvious, so we think he's town, therefore this is a good scum play.

but then, he's obviously town because we'd realise... you see where this is going?



there doesn't have to be equal motives (ie: there doesn't HAVE to be a good, logical reason that townemp wants a massclaim), there just has to be enough confusion about his motivation that we can't actually lynch based solely on what it -might- be.



regardless, this situation IS wifom and i can't really endorse empking's lynch based solely on his massclaim idea. i'm not going to unvote because i think that right now the only other viable lynch candidate is DP and i'm not willing to lynch for stupidity (i currently can't work out if he's dumb or scum).

[cruelty]

i feel like there's a bunch of people out there who haven't seen the princess bride and are misunderstanding the concept.


the point is, BOTH the glasses are poisoned.

[cruelty]

from the wiki: "WIFOM begins to exist at the point that an argument causes a circular line of thinking within the reader. "


and i meant, wifom as it's used on this site isn't actually accurate at all.


anyway, we can discuss this after the game. moving on.

[cruelty]

sorry, been a hectic couple days. i'll have content later today, just checking in for now.

[cruelty]

ok sorry this week has been madness for me. i don't really have much time to post now but i have read through and am caught up, so if there's any particular issues you want my thoughts on, ask and i'll do my best over the next 2-3 days to answer.

really briefly, i'm not a huge fan of davidparker, i think he's an illogical mess, but i'm having a truly difficult time working out alignment based on that. having stepped back from the game for a bit and thought objectively about it, i can't really see a scumempking motivation for pushing a d1 mc (although i'm absolutely against it), so i'm rethinking my position there. i'm fairly happy with rhinox and incognito's contribution, but don't have alignment reads. am curious about nocmen, and more curious about singer and AD, but i'll go into that when i have a bit more time.

for now,

unvote

[cruelty]

yeah ok sorry life's getting on top of me a bit. been battling flu the last couple days.

cruelty's check-in post didn't really offer much either, especially considering the fact that deadline is approaching rather quickly. Not happy about that obv.

this = "bad vibes" because..?

not really interested in hf vs rhinox for the most part, except;

Anyways, the point is, there is no reason for any town to say "I have nothing to claim".

+1.

Ok, I think I wouldn't be aaasss opposed to a mass claim, if DP wasn't in this game. He's fake-claimed in every game I've seen him in, as a townie. If we did a mass claim at this point, I guarantee he'll eff it up in all sorts of ways for us, scum or not.

mm, scaremongering.

vote singer

[cruelty]

you're basically saying that if DP claims we can't take it seriously. setting a precedent of distrust before it's even an issue.

[cruelty]

@rhinox

sorry missed that.

yes, AD is also scaremongering, but i tend to think that singer is being more opportunistic - there's clearly some kind of support for a DP policy lynch, people tend to agree that he may well be detrimental for town. thus, singer gives me worse vibes.

[cruelty]

hey, didn't realise this was open again. catching up.