Open 65 - Mini Love (Over!) before 578

[Korts]

/Yeah, confirm.

[Korts]

Ain't gonna be anywhere near a computer for two days, just sayin'.

[Korts]

Hah, too slow! Can't quicklynch me now!

[Korts]

I am rubber, you are glue.

[Korts]

vote: Jex

because mah spoon is too big.

[Korts]

make note to self: korts is automatic protown because he knows spoon reference

Can't exactly remember where it's from, but your picture triggered it. Also, aren't you a banana?

[Korts]

unvote vote dahill

he was clearly trying to set up a bandwagon and a quicklynch.

[Korts]

[Korts]

unvote

we'll wait until jex is on spring break, and then quicklynch him while he is gone

To this: 1. Spring break is half over so your plan won't work. and 2. Jex is a girl not a guy.

Fsck all this, let's call Jex an it.

Also, I approve of the Korts wagon. I think

he

it deserves more pressure,

he

it's very scummy the way

he

it jumped on the first wagon. Well, second.

[Korts]

Oh yeah, forgot.

Vote: Korts

[Korts]

yeah,

unvote: dahill, vote: Korts

I missed that.

[Korts]

Idiots. The cool guys all wear gasmasks.

[Korts]

Sorry guys, I've had to ask for replacement. Family matters.

[Korts]

Hey, family matters resolved earlier than I thought, so here I am. Going to post a bit later.

[Korts]

Sorry,

unvote

. Also, sorry for forgetting to post. Had a lot going on. And now, I'm gonna OMGUS.

Vote: Yoshi

I find it odd that so many votes are on Albert even though he's claimed! Albert, what do you think now, I'm scum, even though I realize that you are really the doctor, and four other people don't?

Anxious for feedback: scumtell in my read. Also, pointing fingers.

About Jex: I'd like you to tell me why her vote looks odd. Is it because you're convinced ABR is doc?

About me. How the heck did you figure out that being away is scummy? I didn't even post for what, one, two weeks? And yet, after rereading you fail to call me out for lurking, only for selfvoting, and something about some role that I don't understand. You calling me suspicious is the most suspicious thing in this game, since I didn't even post past the random stage, because I was waiting for replacement, and when I came back, I had to reread some other games I came back to also.

I partly agree with the part about Sethaniel. The claim was premature. But the vote on him I don't understand.

I'd like to think that Albert didn't disadvantage us too terribly, too, since he's wrong about me and foolishly claimed doctor to get people to lynch who he wanted them to lynch; so hopefully he is right about Sethaniel.

Claiming doc and not getting the counterclaim isn't a very solid case for ABR being doc, methinks. I find it much more likely he's scum trying to draw the real doc. And the real doc has surely realized this and may have decided to keep his mouth shut, wanting to live to D2. Also, even if he is the doc, he doesn't have anything against Seth. Absolutely no proof that only ABR can have. A doc isn't an investigative role, and even if it were, we didn't have a night 1, as far as I remember.

eldarad, your voting Albert smells of *wanting to lynch the real doc* to me.

No, as I said, ABR's claim is not very believable. It smells more to me of "wanting to lynch the scum

fakeclaiming

doc".

You smell of scum, Yoshi.

[Korts]

Oh, forgot to add. The previous quotes are all from Yoshi, naturally.

[Korts]

Yoshi: ABR may or may not be the doc. Until the real doc, if there is a real doc other than ABR, counterclaims, however, we should not lynch ABR whether or not you believe his claim. I voted for you because if ABR is fakeclaiming, you're obviously protecting your partner, and if he's the real doc, you're obviously buddying up to him.

[Korts]

Also, I didn't attack ABR because

I wasn't here.

I would've called him out for the stupid posts.

[Korts]

Yoshi. That is so full of bullshit. Either you're real

fucked up in the head

silly, or you're scum caught redhanded and now flailing around in desperation.

I said that it

doesn't matter

whether ABR is doc at this point. I wasn't defending him. My point was, there is no need for you to defend him, nor is there any need for the town to collectively lynch him. If there is a doc out there other than ABR, he will counterclaim when the time comes. And my point stops there. There's no inconsistency. You haven't been doing the exact same thing, because you've been asking for feedback all the way through, you FoS-ed everyone on ABR's wagon, and on the whole acted like you want to protect ABR no matter what. Considering ABR's reactions, you are not, in my opinion, lovers, therefore you must be scum, either protecting your partner or buddying up to the claimed doc. If you don't follow me, just ask, I'll clarify.

Also, defending anyone, especially this early on, is bound to attract scrutiny, since this is a game based on suspicion, and town players don't know anything about the others, therefore suspecting everyone. Scum like you, on the other hand, have additional information as to who their partners are and who the townies are, and can maneuver much more confidently, buddying up and protecting their own--but often forgetting that they should act equally suspicious of everyone, not just the ones widely considered scummy.

One more action I'd like to call you out on:

Other than Albert's claim I find him definitely the most suspicious -- so if he isn't the real doctor.

unvote vote: Albert

When pressured, you quickly changed your seemingly solid opinion regarding ABR. Were you truly convinced about the truth of his claim, you would've argued with us. Going with the flow is much more scummy than having your own opinion, no matter how much you're scrutinized for your own opinion. DIESCUMDIE!!!

[Korts]

Yoshi annoys me. Lynch him first.

[Korts]

He can die tomorrow, dude. C'mon, all the cool guys are voting Yoshi.

[Korts]

I know he's a pain in the ass, but Yoshi hurts more, down there. Back me up, pal, 'n' I'll rub your back too. Or whatever.

[Korts]

K, I can do that. You sure about the Seth wagon?

[Korts]

K, I'm fine with that. So, Yoshi now.

[Korts]

Yoshi, don't be a wuss. Take it like a man. It's a game of suspicions, don't expect us to believe your every word. Don't expect us to believe anything. You have to convince us. I think there's no need to tire someone with reading eight pages only to get lynched anyway, cos we're lynching you anyway, Yoshi. Just take it like a man.

[Korts]

Korlash is coming to the exact same conclusion I was -- that Albert SHOULDNT be lynched today -- AND you ALL are saying that I am suspicious FOR SAYING that Albert SHOULDNT be lynched today. Phrasing about whether he is the doc or isnt or maybe is isnt significant.

Also, get your facts straight. We're not suspecting you for saying that ABR shouldn't be lynched. We're suspecting you because you've been trying to buddy up to ABR, and when pressured, you turned on him. Also, for some other things that I don't care to list cos I'm tired and sleepy and so on.

[Korts]

Sethaniel's bandwagon I'll be leading, as promised. Dahill I don't understand...

[Korts]

Okay. Focus. Right. Focus. I can do this.

But hey, noone said anything about sneaky bitches!

[Korts]

I said I would lead the Sethaniel wagon, so

Vote: Sethaniel

I've got this overwhelming urge to vote Korts Today. I also had this urge towards the end of Day 1, but I figured saying so would get me killed.

vote Korts

Any reason other than the urge?

[Korts]

Seems rather strange that ABR was left alive if he is the real doc.

there could be many reasons why he's still alive

One of these reasons being the mafia expect the town to react the way silence did.

[Korts]

Ignoring the pre-confirm and joke posts at the start:

unvote vote dahill he was clearly trying to set up a bandwagon and a quicklynch.

Another joke vote? Maybe. But surely one joke vote is enough...So this is a serious vote then?

Joke vote, yeah.

More garbage about how the Korts wagon needs pushing more. Self votes. Which is a scumtell, in the eldarad book of scumtells.

Joke.

Post 163 is the first post after Korts' absence. The pressure has been piling on Yoshi, and so Korts decides to stick the knife in...

(quotes from me and yoshi followed this in the original post)

You're wrong about Yoshi being pressured in my absence. I was the first to vote him, and other than questioning him about his belief of the ABR-claim, relatively little attention was on him. About defending Jex, I admit it, I found Jex to be absolutely innocent of the things Yoshi accused her of in the post I quoted. As in, I didn't see where her vote could be odd.

About me. How the heck did you figure out that being away is scummy? I didn't even post for what, one, two weeks? And yet, after rereading you fail to call me out for lurking, only for selfvoting, and something about some role that I don't understand. You calling me suspicious is the most suspicious thing in this game, since I didn't even post past the random stage, because I was waiting for replacement, and when I came back, I had to reread some other games I came back to also.

I partly agree with the part about Sethaniel. The claim was premature. But the vote on him I don't understand.

This time criticising Yoshi's stance on Seth, whilst sending Seth good vibes.

The reason I was criticising Yoshi's vote on Seth is his list of suspicions, which was in the following order: Jex, Seth, Korts.

Not,

I feel the need to emphasise, Seth, Jex, Korts or Seth, Korts, Jex.

Claiming doc and not getting the counterclaim isn't a very solid case for ABR being doc, methinks. I find it much more likely he's scum trying to draw the real doc. And the real doc has surely realized this and may have decided to keep his mouth shut, wanting to live to D2. Also, even if he is the doc, he doesn't have anything against Seth. Absolutely no proof that only ABR can have. A doc isn't an investigative role, and even if it were, we didn't have a night 1, as far as I remember.

This is pretty accurate, but to me this sounds like scum casting off a scumbuddy he sees as a liability.

Take it as you will. But are you referring to Yoshi or ABR as the scumbuddy I'm sounding like casting off?

eldarad, your voting Albert smells of *wanting to lynch the real doc* to me.

No, as I said, ABR's claim is not very believable. It smells more to me of "wanting to lynch the scum fakeclaiming doc".

This time buddying up to me. Nice.

I was questioning, through this, again, the credibility of ABR's claim. Also, I was pretty annoyed by Yoshi's lame way of twisting words.

Post 168 explains to Yoshi the whole ABR-doc reasoning again.
I agree with post 172, but that doesn't mean it can't be bussing by Korts.
174 and 176 is part of the stupid back-and-forth between ABR and Korts.
Then Korts agrees to lead the Seth wagon Day 2. Why exactly? This is even worse proxying than Seth's. If Seth is town, Korts can say "ABR told me to"
This is despite already acknowledging, as part of the case on Yoshi, that ABR can't possibly have any additional info.

So, yeah. I'm not liking your play at all. Hence the vote.

I agree that the accusation of bussing is valid, as always in a case like this, but I can't defend myself against that. I agreed to lead the Seth wagon because I find him most suspicious after Yoshi. And I have a mouth of my own, and a brain attached to it, I will never defend myself with "ABR told me to." I acknowledged that ABR can't have additional info, but I agree with the suspicion. Yoshi was intending, as far as I understood, to blindly follow ABR on the Seth wagon based on simply the "fact" that he's Doc.

[Korts]

Hey doc, what about Seth?

[Korts]

You don't lead a bandwagon without a case, Korts.

I'll be posting a case on Seth when I have the time. Also, what's the case against Jex?

[Korts]

PBPA on Seth.

Confirming post.
Post 1:

ABR, do you have a reason for liking Jex? If you can give me a good one, I'll vote for her.

Probably joke post, but still makes me a bit uneasy, the way he's open to negotiation about a random vote.

Post 2:

Ah, wait. So you like her personally, not like her as a candidate for lynch.

Or, you believe people who think like you do should be lynched.

Which is it, ABR? do you want me to vote for Jex?

Still trying to sell his vote.

Post 3: joke post.

Post 4 is in reply to this:

unvote vote sethaniel I don't like the fact that you are looking for answers instead of creating your theories and ideas. You get a double vote from due to the fact that you're asking ABR for answers of all people.

OMGUS Jex. I'm just talking.

Calls valid accusations OMGUS. Doesn't reply to accusations.

Post 5:

Fine, scorn my affection. See if I care.

vote ABR

Oh, I guess I do care. . .

Blatant OMGUS without any reason to it. (ABR voted Seth in the post before quoted)

Post 6:

@Elderad

Incidentally, my question to ABR ("do you feel lucky?") was kinda serious, but I don't want an answer anymore.

unvote
vote Seth

for asking ABR where to place your vote. It's trying to absolve yourself of responsibility for your actions.

So, it's okay for you to ask questions regarding voting, but not for me? We're both going the same place with those questions.

Misrepresentation. Eldarad's question was nowhere near about the same thing as Seth's. While Seth asked ABR to tell him where to put his vote, eldarad's question, as far as I gather, wasn't even related to voting.

In general: I wasn't

necessarily

going to just vote whatever ABR said. I wanted to see what his response would be. Did he have any particular reason to vote for anyone, or was he just trying to bait someone into arguing with him, so he could push for a lynch? His response turned out to be voting for me, without giving any reason at all.

Two things. Bolded part: acknowledges that he's open to advice on where to put his vote, basically letting others do the scumhunting for him. Second, hypocrite. Seth didn't give reason for his OMGUS, either.

Post 7:

Defense of my actions:

Newbie. Stupid newbie. Check my join date.

Plays newbie card.

I really did just want to see what response would come of it. ABR keeps insistently making "I love Jex" posts, which is a little weird. Obviously, I didn't think people would use it as a reason to lynch me.

A lot of people were saying a lot of stupid things

,

and no one seems to have singled them out for death.

(Specifically,

elderad admits he was kind of serious in asking ABR about his vote

, then jumps on the BW to lynch me.)

Again, bolded part: I don't see where eldarad's question was related to voting. Also, pointing fingers (italic part) and some bullshit (underlined), because, in fact, farside and Qman had also been questioned about some actions, the only difference being that they had defended themselves.

Well, if I die, when I'm proven townie, I hope it helps you find the real scum.

Premature claim(L-3), also pretty obvious one. I'm thinking with this setup, everyone would claim townie. And emphasises the newbie card.

Post 8 is just a "giving up" post, in my eyes. Outraged at ABR for his scumhunting technique, confirm claim.

Post 9 is at me saying he expected me to give him a free pass.

Well, that's about it. My points against him are basically 1) the selling of the random vote to ABR, 2) the calling of valid arguments OMGUS, 3) OMGUSing himself without any said reason, 4) gross misrepresentation and hypocrisy, and 5) not being willing to defend himself with valid arguments.

[Korts]

That questioning was leading somewhere, and Yoshi wasn't handling the attention well at all. I agree that you put the first vote on, but to claim that there was no pressure is wrong.

That questioning eventually lead to Yoshi suddenly changing his opinion, but at the point of my comeback, it wasn't looking like it would lead anywhere. The argument at that point looked like a stalemate. Yes, there may have been some pressure on him to acknowledge that ABR may not certainly be the doc, but it wasn't considerable pressure.

Hmm. You answered something directed towards me on my behalf, which I don't like.

I admit that I answered it, and that it was directed at you. That I can't defend. But the point I made while answering it was part of the case on Yoshi.

Yeah, but this is setting up the Day 2 lynch on Day 1 without reference to any information we gain from the lynch and NK. Why would you do that?

This is setting up a Day 2

bandwagon

that we can gain information from. I don't think we gain much information from yesterday's lynch, correct me if I'm wrong. And the NK doesn't help much, either. I mean, apart from the early D1 argument between farside and Qman, farside didn't pick a lot of fights. If I had thought differently, I wouldn't have started Day 2 with the Seth wagon.

[Korts]

Let's do something, already. I'd like Seth to reply to my post, and I also want to ask eldarad and dahill if they have any questions for me.

[Korts]

Seth, please don't use my words in a way they were clearly not intended to be used. You're misrepresenting me, and making a rather sloppy job about it. Compare quotes.

Why why why if I were scum, would I kill farside?

...

[lots of quotes from farside]

...

If I were scum, farside was no threat to me. I had nothing to gain by killing her, and unlike ABR or Korts, she didn't seem convinced I was scum.

On the one hand we have the WIFOM argument concerning the NK.

the NK doesn't help much, either. I mean, apart from the early D1 argument between farside and Qman, farside didn't pick a lot of fights.

On the other hand we have an argument against necroing an essentially dead discussion, a discussion which leads, if you take into account farside's D1 play and the state of the discussion at that point, to nothing except WIFOM arguments.

How are the two quotes similar? Both revolve around the topic of NK's. But they're not about the same thing, I gather.

So how is setting up a Day 2 wagon in advance beneficial to anyone?
I agree that Yoshi's lynch wasn't the most informative but that doesn't justify setting up lynches - or bandwagons or even just the agenda - a Day in advance.
Why, exactly, did you do that? How does the town benefit from knowing that you are going to lead a bandwagon Day 2? Does the town benefit more than the mafia? How so?

Setting up a Day 2 wagon may not be beneficial to town, but it isn't any more beneficial to the mafia, either. At least, I don't see how it might be harmful.

[Korts]

If it doesn't hurt anyone, why not do it, as long as I feel like it? You know, I presume, that we can go on like this for quite a long time.
It would be beneficial to scum if I would try to prevent any other wagon from happening. Competing wagons are by no means against my will.
The ABR thing interests me, too. I've never seen him play before, though, so I don't know whether he's always this erratic.

[Korts]

Well, I can't really reply to that, dahill. English isn't my first language, maybe that's why you feel it's forced.

[Korts]

i believe a korts lynch will give us the most information based on his alignment and how it goes with possible connections, defending/attacking other player

I don't think that's the correct way to hunt scum, lynching someone who, I gather from this post, you judge to have a 50% chance of being scum, and an equal chance at being town. Also, my possible connections? I attacked Yoshi and Seth. But my turning up town won't prove Seth's guilt. My suspicions don't have solid proof. I'm not defending him, just pointing out holes in logic.

my main points against korts are that he seemed to be a bit too eager for the Seth lynch D2. he even later admitted that setting up a D2 wagon would not be beneficial to the town..

I'm not any more eager for his lynch than I was for Yoshi's. I have a fair suspicion that he's scum, and since I didn't see any better place to start from at the start of D2, I voted for him. Also, I admitted that setting up a D2 wagon wouldn't be beneficial for town, but I added that it wouldn't be beneficial for scum, either, therefore it is a null tell. Of course, you're entitled to your opinion.

also i agree with elderad about ABR seemingly losing interest in Seth, then returning to him is strange

Strange? Maybe. Scummier than Seth? Nooooo.

i admit Seth is looking scummy and i'm considering him as a possible D3 lynch, depending on what happens today.

You admit that Seth's scummy, therefore you will consider voting him

tomorrow?

Clarify this, please. You haven't expressed more than light suspicion of me, and you call Seth scummy, yet I get the vote. Is it only me, or do you see the hole in logic too? You don't want to lynch your buddy unless you really have to, is that it?

So, to summarize your post, you agree that Seth is scummy, then you throw around suspicion on everyone on Seth's wagon, I presume to see what sticks. Also, trying to minimize suspicion on babygirl by saying she lurks all the time.

FoS dahill

that's a big FoS, but I still think Seth's the play today.

[Korts]

I don't think that's the correct way to hunt scum, lynching someone who, I gather from this post, you judge to have a 50% chance of being scum, and an equal chance at being town. Also, my possible connections? I attacked Yoshi and Seth. But my turning up town won't prove Seth's guilt. My suspicions don't have solid proof. I'm not defending him, just pointing out holes in logic.

that's not at all what i'm saying. i know that if you turn up town seth isn't automatically guilty, but you also seem to have buddied up with ABR as well. i'm definitely not thinking that you are 50% scum, 50% town

I gathered from your posts that you weren't really decided whether or not I'm scum or town. I may have been wrong, but you didn't express any more than vague suspicion.

I'm not any more eager for his lynch than I was for Yoshi's. I have a fair suspicion that he's scum, and since I didn't see any better place to start from at the start of D2, I voted for him. Also, I admitted that setting up a D2 wagon wouldn't be beneficial for town, but I added that it wouldn't be beneficial for scum, either, therefore it is a null tell. Of course, you're entitled to your opinion.

read these quotes

Sethaniel's bandwagon I'll be leading, as promised. Dahill I don't understand...

I said I would lead the Sethaniel wagon, so

Vote: Sethaniel

Hey doc, what about Seth?

seems to me like you were eager for a seth lynch

You're misrepresenting me, I didn't say I wasn't eager for a Seth lynch. I said I am no more eager for his lynch than Yoshi's. Kinda less, in fact, but that wasn't my point.

Strange? Maybe. Scummier than Seth? Nooooo.

never said it was scummier than seth

You raise points against ABR, you fail to raise points against Seth, this leads me to the conclusion that you find ABR scummier compared to Seth.

So, to summarize your post, you agree that Seth is scummy, then you throw around suspicion on everyone on Seth's wagon, I presume to see what sticks. Also, trying to minimize suspicion on babygirl by saying she lurks all the time.

the only suspicion of someone i have on seth's wagon is pretty much you. and now you're saying i'm minimizing suspicion on babygirl?? you just said i sentence ago that i was throwing suspicion at her (she's on seth's wagon)! she does lurk all the time, i'm just saying that for me, it doesn't change my suspicion anymore or any less because from what i've seen, she does it all the time. not that i'm saying it's a good playstyle, but just informing other players.

To clarify my point. You made points about ABR and me, and you mentioned babygirl as a prominent lurker. About ABR and me, you declared that you find my lynch the best, and that ABR's actions have been strange. About babygirl, however, you say that this is her playstyle. Maybe this is only about informing other players, but it isn't hard to see ulterior motives in there.

[Korts]

unvote, vote: dahill

L-2, guys.

[Korts]

unvote, vote: dahill

L-2, guys.

what happened last page when you said seth was still the best play?
feel a little more comfortable voting me since now there's a bandwagon?

He's still the best play, but you're pretty good too, and with all the attention on you, I'm not likely to get a Seth lynch together.

[Korts]

Day 1 he's been buddying up and "obeying" ABR by going after Yoshi and then promising to lead a bandwagon on Seth day 2. That could very well be his way of not feeling guilty whenever Seth gets lynched, thanks to some "was only fulfilling a promise" "ABR told me to" "its his fault" kind of craplogic and gayplay.

Hey, you implying ABR told me to go after Yoshi? Also, I never intended and never intend to use that kind of craplogic. If I play an important role in Seth's lynch and he turns town, I'll be the first to say I fucked up. But way to put nice words into my mouth, I love it.

Also, yeah, I switched to dahill. It wasn't without reason, and the reason wasn't that his bandwagon looked nicer. I had, in fact, attacked dahill for post 258, and yes, I said that my vote stays on Seth. But god, can't a man change his mind?

[Korts]

It

wasn't

without reason, and the reason wasn't that his bandwagon looked nicer.

ah the truth finally comes out
so seth was a better lynch...but i had a bigger BW

BOLDED PART, idiot.

@Kravhen: I'm not trying to be ABR's lapdog. I can make up my own mind.

[Korts]

EBWOP:

It wasn't without reason, and the reason

wasn't

that his bandwagon looked nicer.

ah the truth finally comes out
so seth was a better lynch...but i had a bigger BW

BOLDED PART, idiot.

Sorry, bolded wrong "wasn't".

[Korts]

In fact, I still think Seth is still the most scummy, I was just interested to see where voting dahill would lead. More later, I'm kinda drunk atm.

[Korts]

In fact, I still think Seth is still the most scummy, I was just interested to see where voting dahill would lead. More later, I'm kinda drunk atm.

ok, then what is your real reason for voting for me?

Mainly to see the reactions.

[Korts]

In fact, I still think Seth is still the most scummy, I was just interested to see where voting dahill would lead. More later, I'm kinda drunk atm.

ok, then what is your real reason for voting for me?

Mainly to see the reactions.

of whom, specifically?

The whole town, specifically. Call it a gambit, if you like. I guess I'll have to learn more before I can make something like this work, though.

unvote

To answer your question, ABR, I'm still for Seth being scum, but why is Jex scum too?

[Korts]

alright, Korts' vote on me to "see the reactions of the town" only confirms my suspicions of him
1) what did you think the town would do/say?
2) was it really just the town in general? there must have been someone specific that you wanted to see.
3) you say you voted for me to get reactions. why did you vote me then? did you think voting me would provoke the most reactions? if you wanted reactions, do you think voting for someone else would get them? if so, why didn't you?

Alright.

1) I was trying to see who else jumped on a wagon with such a weak case.
2)someone specific: anyone who would accept semi-bullshit reasons or come up with bullshit to vote you.
3)I voted you because I didn't think you lynchworthy based on the small case against you, and I wanted to see who would be eager to jump on. I thought the validity of the case on you (parts of it fully valid, some parts less so) was enough to warrant impatient scum to jump on, and not yet such a strong case for town to hammer.

Vote: Sethaniel

[Korts]

Eldarad, was your question directed at me, or at dahill?

[Korts]

Hey, I can see where you wouldn't believe my explanation, but Seth: if I stated my reasons for the switch when I switched, you think the gambit would've had any remote chance of working?

Also, how many votes am I at? If it comes to it, I'm willing to self-hammer.

[Korts]

Hey, I tried a gambit, and now I realize I can't defend myself with the explanation of "it was a gambit", cos yeah, you're pretty likely to believe that if you're inclined. I see where there's no reasonable defense for my switch, therefore if the town goes my way, I'm willing to accept it. I'd like to believe it's cool, though.

[Korts]

As it happens, I don't find Jex scummy, so no. I would've tried getting a Seth lynch together.

[Korts]

Hey, that's not the point of the answer.

[Korts]

As in, if the choice was to vote either myself or Jex? Rephrase the question, it sounds stupid.

[Korts]

No, I would've voted Seth.

[Korts]

Guys, Seth has a point. Lynch me already.

[Korts]

unvote

1) I was trying to see who else jumped on a wagon with such a weak case.
2)someone specific: anyone who would accept semi-bullshit reasons or come up with bullshit to vote you.
3)I voted you because I didn't think you lynchworthy based on the small case against you, and I wanted to see who would be eager to jump on. I thought the validity of the case on you (parts of it fully valid, some parts less so) was enough to warrant impatient scum to jump on, and not yet such a strong case for town to hammer.

Vote: Sethaniel

Wait a minute! I voted for dahill before Korts. Korts's vote put dahill at L-2, in fact. The only person who jumped on the dahill wagon

after

Korts was ABR.

Korts pushes a Sethwagon, then abruptly switches to dahill, first with no reason, then giving as his reason as he didn't think he could get enough support for a Seth lynch. Then, when he gets pressured for switching his vote, he basically repeats Jex's reasoning from post 296, the difference being that Jex was the one who started the wagon, not the fourth person to jump on it.

Seth, I see a minor inconsistency in this post. Why didn't you vote for me, after this?

[Korts]

@korts- don't you think that would look like I was just jumping from wagon to wagon?

why are you so eager to get lynched?

Well, maybe, but you did give enough reason to validate your jump onto my wagon.

Also, I'm not so eager to get lynched, but if that's the consensus, I'm willing to trade my life to prove the sincerity of my case against you.

[Korts]

Reading through Yoshi's posts, I have these thoughts.

In his first game-post, he posts a quick list of suspicions. Jex is on top, Seth is on bottom. I think that of the two, one is scum, Yoshi would probably start bussing early, the way I judge his playstyle. Votes Jex, and when she explains her reasons (random) he dismisses them with a "fine, you're still suspect". I don't get the feel Yoshi would leave a vote on a partner without a good/bad reason.

However, the reaction to Seth playing the noob card is a bit telling. Yoshi accepts, without anything further, this explanation:

Newbie. Stupid newbie. Check my join date.

I really did just want to see what response would come of it. ABR keeps insistently making "I love Jex" posts, which is a little weird. Obviously, I didn't think people would use it as a reason to lynch me. A lot of people were saying a lot of stupid things, and no one seems to have singled them out for death. (Specifically, elderad admits he was kind of serious in asking ABR about his vote, then jumps on the BW to lynch me.)

Well, if I die, when I'm proven townie, I hope it helps you find the real scum.

I'm guessing the scum will just claim that I was playing anti-town and deserved to die for being unhelpful anyway. (I can make a great argument against myself.)

In contrast, Jex's defense-which Yoshi rejected:

All of my votes up until my vote on Sethaniel were all joking around, you know...random game play for the random voting stage. Sethaniel was the first that I actually found suspicious and I'm currently torn between sethaniel and farside at the moment for most suspicious in my eyes.

What I see is that Yoshi made a case on Jex based on joke-stage comments, and rejected her reasonable defense, while against Seth, he made a case based on comments that were admitted by Seth to be at least half serious, and yet Yoshi accepts the defense that amounted to "I'm a newbie, but I'm town and if you lynch me I hope it'll help you". A pretty odd reaction when compared to the reaction to Jex.

Yoshi's post 4 also makes me doubt that Jex would be scum with Yoshi. Attacking Jex for making a case that Yoshi partly agrees with, I think would be more easily explained as trying to push a town wagon than futile bussing.

Post 5 Yoshi denies the validity of the Seth case, despite his earlier conviction. More proof of a Yoshi-Seth connection. Also in this post, Yoshi asks for a counterclaim to ABR's claim. I suddenly had the following thought: why would Yoshi ask for a counterclaim so hard if he knew ABR to be town? It may be he expected a counterclaim, knowing ABR

wasn't

town. What if what I thought to be Yoshi buddying up to ABR was in fact Yoshi protecting ABR?

Post 6 Yoshi admits the validity of the Seth case, I think because he was watching the pressure building on Seth and decided that he would be better off lynching his partner than defending him against a valid case. Again, requesting a counterclaim in a couple posts, which, as I said, may be a tell against ABR.

That's the summary of my thoughts today.

[Korts]

and yet Yoshi accepts the defense that amounted to "I'm a newbie, but I'm town and if you lynch me I hope it'll help you".

God I'm a hypocrite.

[Korts]

Well, aside from the fact that I didn't claim town.

Right, kthxbai. Sorry for the back-to-back-to-back episodes.

[Korts]

If I wasn't the doctor, the real doctor would claim and there would be 1 scum left, who would be a lover.

Unless I'm a treacherous lover, but then if I was, my town lover would claim that I'm not in fact the doctor.

So I am 100%, confirmed town and doctor.

I'm, for now, taking you as confirmed. That was just what I saw from Yoshi's posts. However, if you weren't the doctor, the real doctor wouldn't necessarily claim, maybe they wanted to be useful to the town before getting themselves NK'ed. But this is just a theory. The chances for it being true are pretty much nil.

[Korts]

I agree with silence, who, despite his name, has a pretty valuable suggestion. Here's the plan, as I see it.

Dahill claims his partner. After that, there are two possibilities. A) they die, B) they stay alive either because dahill or his partner is in fact treacherous lover, or because scum want to try WIFOM.

If A) happens, and both dahill and his partner come up town, the town half of the other pair should claim immediately, because then surely his partner is the treacherous lover. And then we're down to 1 scum against 3 town, and we have a fairly good chance of winning from thereon.

If B) happens, I think the town's best chance is to policy-lynch dahill, or his partner, and from there, it's the same as point A), except that we have one more night kill, so it'd be 1 scum to 2 town.

Alternatively, we can policy-lynch dahill now, and our chances would improve, the fact being that 4 town would face the single scum.

[Korts]

Besides which, forcing the scum to NK dahill instead of lynching him delays the death of his lover by a Night. So there is always an outside possibility that his lover will be targeted for a NK even though they are going to die anyway.
If dahill's lover is revealed that option disappears.

Wait, doesn't the lover-pair die at the same point in the game? Is the death of the other half delayed? I realize I may not have read the rules/roles thoroughly enough. I'm going for a reread of them.

...

Geez. Whatever, yeah, you're right. Well, the alternative is to lynch dahill without him claiming his partner, then.

Or because of a doc save, or because the scum target the claimed doc instead.
Quite an enormous oversight on your part there Korts...

Yeah, I was bound to miss something, I thought about what it could be for five minutes. But hey, I'm not one of the smart guys'n'gals around here.

And another thing - the scum may NK dahill even though his lover is treacherous just for the WIFOM value of having a scum who knows he is dead man walking anyway.

I don't really understand this part. Are you saying they'd try killing the treacherous lover, just for the sake of the remaining scum being able to take the town on by himself?

[Korts]

i don't want to claim my partner, because i believe him/her to be town.

If you are both town and the scum kills your partner, we can identify the treacherous lover tomorrow, so the scum probably wouldn't kill your partner and thus claiming your partner does not do any harm.

I think for that reason we should force dahill1 to claim partner - it does not do any harm and that way we find out whether his claim was true.

Anyway, I admit my thinking may be flawed here, there is no hurry, I don't want him to claim partner before this is discussed/accepted.

am i missing something here? there are 3 lovers, so when my partner and i both die (assuming my partner is town), then you won't be able to identify the treacherous lover right away. claiming my partner doesn't mean you will necessarily be able to find the scum lover.

No. Aside from you and your partner, there's one other pair of lovers, therefore if you and your partner die and both of you are town, the treacherous lover will be in the other pair. Now, the town half of the other pair has win conditions that require all the mafia, lover or not, to die, therefore it is in his own best interest to claim and die. Therefore we get the treacherous lover killed.

FoS: dahill

for not realizing this.

I agree with silence, who, despite his name, has a pretty valuable suggestion. Here's the plan, as I see it.

Dahill claims his partner. After that, there are two possibilities. A) they die, B) they stay alive either because dahill or his partner is in fact treacherous lover, or because scum want to try WIFOM.

If A) happens, and both dahill and his partner come up town, the town half of the other pair should claim immediately, because then surely his partner is the treacherous lover. And then we're down to 1 scum against 3 town, and we have a fairly good chance of winning from thereon.

wrong! again, aren't there 2 more pairs of lovers left (excluding me and my partner)? also, just because someone claims they are the town lover, doesn't mean there partner is scum! you can't base truth on whoever claims fiaster that's ridiculous!

Wrong, again. There's just a single pair of lovers other than you and your partner. And once you die, there will be only one pair. The town half claims, and I think in this case we can believe the claim, since no-one else in this setup would win anything by falsely claiming lover. If the mafia goon claims, he's dead anyway, and if a townie claims, he just fucked up a good plan for the town.

If B) happens, I think the town's best chance is to policy-lynch dahill, or his partner, and from there, it's the same as point A), except that we have one more night kill, so it'd be 1 scum to 2 town.

why should we policy-lynch me? how about we scumhunt as normal?

We lynch you because it all works out best for town that way.

Alternatively, we can policy-lynch dahill now, and our chances would improve, the fact being that 4 town would face the single scum.

again, why not just scumhunt? it seems to be working so far

Again, if you think clearly and have pro-town intentions, you should see how it helps the town to lynch you.

[Korts]

Also, one more thing I forgot.

Unvote, Vote: dahill

[Korts]

If I'm the treacherous lover, I'm not your partner, and we lynch you, dahill, today, the logical step is to lynch the other lover pair, therefore it would be stupid for me to have proposed this plan. And before you shout WIFOM, it's not so much of that here, because with me having (hypothetically) a town partner, who finds out tomorrow that I'm scum, I wouldn't be able to avoid death.

[Korts]

No,

you idiot

kind sir, I was just following a train of thought, accepting that hypothetically I could be scum.

[Korts]

I feel like he's just trying to save himself by targeting the lovers right now instead of waiting.

Waiting? For what? The game to stall?

The love plan works on any day, so we kill korts today (getting rid of one scum) and then deal with the lovers tomorrow.

The only problem with this is that, if say I'm pro-town and you lynch me, then you go on and lynch the two pairs of lovers, the town's chances are reduced compared to lynching dahill's pair today.

Also, I'm indifferent to whether dahill should claim his partner or not. I see both pro-town and pro-scum reasons for doing it. I'm going to have to go with no, dahill shouldn't claim because I think it helps the scum more than it helps the town at this point. If the town wants to be rid of the lover pair there is no need to know the 2nd partner as we'd all just vote to kill dahill eliminating both. Therefore, a claim in unnecessary.

I agree with that. Whether or not we go with a dahill lynch today, he shouldn't claim his partner.

[Korts]

Yeah I've been scummy, I'm trying to work on it. But Jex, I'd like you to explain why it'd still be beneficial for the town to start lynching the lover pairs tomorrow.

[Korts]

While I understand the logic of killing off the known lover today, I feel that Korts only brought this plan up in order to get everyone's attention off of him and onto someone else. Korts is on the top of my scum list, as well as many others lists, and I feel he's the best lynch for the day.

The love plan works on any day, so we kill korts today

(getting rid of one scum)

and then deal with the lovers tomorrow.

The bolded part really gets to me. It's a much stronger statement than a townie would make, I feel. I think that by lynching Korts we are lynching the

most likely

scum, but I'm not complacent about it.

All we need to figure out is whether Jex is pushing for a townie lynch, or whether she's bussing Kortscum. In the meantime,

unvote
vote Jex

FoS: Eldarad

I don't like your tone.

Good reasoning. You almost had me convinced.

[Korts]

ABR, why should I vote Jex? I want her to answer my question first.

Dahill, it's your choice whether you want to claim your partner or not. If you do, the claimed partner will confirm you, if you don't, our best option is to lynch you. That's my two cents.

[Korts]

My idea is to lynch dahill, thereby eliminating the dilemma of whether dahill or his partner is a treacherous lover. If both of them turn out to be town, we have the town half of the other pair of lovers claim, we lynch him (the one who claimed), and get rid of the treacherous. If we work our way through this plan starting today (by lynching dahill today and lynching the claimed town half of the other pair tomorrow), we eliminate one of the two remaining scum by Day 4 (at worst) and the odds Day 4 will be 4 town vs 1 scum (again, this is the worst case scenario for this plan), which I think is pretty good. That's my plan, in a nutshell.

[Korts]

Give me something I can defend myself against, and I will.

[Korts]

Yes. By my count, it's a good choice for town.

[Korts]

Anyway, we would be killing only two lovers. The rest would die all by themselves.

[Korts]

Surely we're much better off trying to lynch scum rather than just lynching lovers by default.

As long as we lynch scum sooner or later, yeah. But if we get to lynching the lovers (starting today), we can get rid of one of the two scum remaining, and still have the town in a very fine situation.


I'd still like

Jex

to answer my question. Maybe a prod?

[Korts]

Korts thats scummy as hell

What was?

[Korts]

Yes, there's that. But with this plan, we get one scum guaranteed, while trying to find the goon won't necessarily yield so good results. God, I feel like some kind of a salesman.

[Korts]

wait, my interaction with Yoshi? Give me something I can defend myself against.

[Korts]

As for the lover plan, I agree that it works fine. I also highly believe that Korts is scum. In my opinion, we kill korts today to get the mafia goon, and then the lover plan still works just as well tomorrow.

The lover plan, the way I proposed, doesn't work as well tomorrow. The odds would be much worse. Either lynch a lover today, or ditch the lover plan altogether.

[Korts]

Why doesn't the lover plan work tomorrow?
We're still trading 3 town for scum - which may very well me a trade worth making.
Worst case scenario is we end up with 1 scum vs 2 town, which is lylo but probably what we'd expect anyway.
If we're lucky, scum NK's one of the townie lovers for us, which saves us a Day in terms of lynches.

So let's lynch Korts Today.

I didn't say the lover plan doesn't work tomorrow. I said, it doesn't work as well as if we would do it today. The worst case scenario for starting the plan tomorrow is, by my count, 3 town vs. 1 scum, which isn't as good as 4 town vs. 1 scum, because with 3:1, a mislynch would mean immediate loss.

Anyway, I thought you were against lynching the lovers.

[Korts]

Well, there's nothing left to do, then.

unvote, vote: Korts

[Korts]

I'm gonna get lynched anyway.

[Korts]

Actually,

unvote

I got too emotional. Again.

If more people would agree with my plan, that would be good...

Vote: dahill

[Korts]

Sensitive bitch.

Al, you make me cry...

[Korts]

More of this weird ABR-Korts interaction...

More funny than weird. But I'm biased.

[Korts]

That's twice Korts has self-voted.

Three times, actually. I think I randomvoted myself once, too.

[Korts]

That's twice Korts has self-voted.

You must construct additional pylons.

Pylons?

[Korts]

eldarad, care to confirm this?

[Korts]

Great. Now silence, Sethaniel and Kravhen please decide whether or not to follow the plan of eliminating the lovers.

[Korts]

Maybe Kravhen need a

prod or replacement

, he hasn't posted on the site for almost two weeks.

[Korts]

Because they aren't voting anyone.

[Korts]

Because they aren't voting anyone.

And?

And, shouldn't they?

[Korts]

I can't really follow matha fter so many shots, but if we lynch all thel overs, won't we have a 4:1 ratio of town:scum day 4?

[Korts]

How about dahill?

[Korts]

I don't agree. The town half of the other can claim tomorrow if both dahill and eldarad turn town, but if both pairs claim and we lynch the one with the treacherous lover, the scum essentially get two NK's.

[Korts]

Korts that was very scummy.

geez. and how?

[Korts]

I have the urge to self-vote again.

[Korts]

I won't be deciding this one, so wake me when

september ends

you decided whether or not to lynch me.

[Korts]

I think my arguments would be in vain, anyway. My position is not really a defendable one.

[Korts]

Anyway,

Pinky Finger of Suspicion

Sethaniel for post 535. Making a point of trying to do the math and then failing, seems to me like a filler post.

[Korts]

I think you guys are wrong. If we lynch Korts and he is not scum at what point do you lynch the lovers to find out if one is scum?

When we've found the one hiding among the townies?

And why would a lover hide among townies?

[Korts]

Yeah. Reading comprehension. Just bum-rape me already, I'm just lame this second day.

[Korts]

Making a point of trying to do the math and then failing

Hey, I

said

mathyness was not my strong point. I'd rather vote based on whether I think Korts or dahill seems scummier, anyway.

That's one of the reasons why it's only a pinky finger of suspicion.

[Korts]

The other reason is that it's way cooler pointing with your pinky.

[Korts]

I think you guys are wrong. If we lynch Korts and he is not scum at what point do you lynch the lovers to find out if one is scum?

We don't. We let the mafia kill the lovers, so we're guaranteed to find the treacherous lover in the aftermath.
Why should we lynch the townie lovers? We'd just be doing the mafia's job for them.

What makes you sure the mafia would kill the lovers? I may be slow, but I just can't follow why they would decide to eliminate the town lovers when that would only cast suspicion on the treacherous lover's pair.

[Korts]

Well, so long and thanks for all the fish. Probably no-one's going to check in and unvote now, so anyway. Thanks, go town, woo, etc. Bye.

[Korts]

have a good time

[Korts]

Yays. I kinda regret messing around Day 2, sorry, guys.