Mini #564 - Mafia in Crubtown - Game Over

[vikingfan]

random vote zeddicus

since his first letter is at the end of the alphabet.

[vikingfan]

vote vikingfan

for being in both my minis right now.

OMGUS

unvote vote Pink Puppy

[vikingfan]

PP notes that she is now in a 3rd game without me (the basis of her voting) but doesn't unvote. Hmmm... I'm keeping my vote there for now.

As for the other stuff, it seems like it's making a mountain out of a molehill, unless there's something I'm missing.

[vikingfan]

it doesn't bother me at all, PP. It just struck me as odd that you noted that it was a random vote, the reason for the random vote was thus nullified, and yet you kept the vote. That's all. And yes, it was a joke.

[vikingfan]

What on earth are those two posts supposed to mean, Akonas?

[vikingfan]

Cephrir, I went through windkirby's posts and I'm not seeing the scummy behavior you are...he seems to be playing more town, at least so far. What scummy actions are you seeing?

[vikingfan]

Cephrir, I went through windkirby's posts and I'm not seeing the scummy behavior you are...he seems to be playing more town, at least so far. What scummy actions are you seeing?

Just reposting this for Cephrir's benefit since he hasn't responded to it yet, unless I've missed something. I'm really not seeing the scummy behavior out of windkirby at all.

[vikingfan]

Mind posting more content than that, mozsuggs? We certainly don't want to just do a random lynch...that would get us nowhere.

[vikingfan]

careful zed...I'm always leery of people who say we need to do things NOW... there is never a need to hurry. Longer days always help the town. Of course, there is a point where a lynch is good, but IMO, we haven't reached that point yet.

that being said, I'm sensing heavy scummy vibes from darkdude since he's overly paranoid at the moment and not giving really good reasons to go after Yvonne.

unvote vote darkdude

.

[vikingfan]

I find this post odd. You're no taking that much notice of zeddicus, but you are taking some--and I think that post was a bit more suspicious than you seemed to. On the other hand, some people just like making accusations like that.

My rationale is that I didn't like the way that he said it, but on the other hand, darkdude is nowhere near lynching, so I didn't view as suspiciously as I would otherwise have, especially since no wave of votes occurred afterward. I do agree, though, I can't tell whether he just does that or not.

darkdude, please give us some theories as to who you think is scum (without OMGUSing somebody). With concrete reasons and explanations.

[vikingfan]

this smells WAY too much like backtracking and trying to get the pressure off.

unvote vote mozsuggs

You're trying to get us to believe that you're just a lazy town player, but it's just as possible that you could be a lazy SCUM player. I agree with Akonas...tell us who you find suspicious. There's 8 pages of material here, more than enough to find something useful.

[vikingfan]

What's the vote count? I think we're dangerously close to a lynch.

[vikingfan]

never mind, I just checked...it's 7 to lynch so we're fine. I was going to respond to suggs' post but everybody already did it for me. anything to say?

[vikingfan]

2 scum? how on earth do you know that? 3 is generally accepted but there can always be more or less. but yes, there's generally MORE than two, but that's not a hard and fast rule.

Explain that very quickly because I don't like where you're going.

[vikingfan]

First off, suggs, have you ever heard of crossposting...my post and your response were almost simultaneously. More to the point, it seems more and more like you are backtracking, especially with that second response. I agree 100% with what Yvonne says about not letting newb behavior slide just because it's newb. I would also add that this is a game of mafia...if we let every scummy behavior slide just because a newb claims it's newbish behavior, it's bad policy. Obviously, if things improve, then that might change, but as of now, I'm not agreeing with suggs on anything, especially because his entire line of reasoning is, "you voted me, so you must be scum." Bad logic. Try again.

[vikingfan]

giving up already?

[vikingfan]

After seeing mozsuggs' alignment, I'm not sure about darkdude, especially since it seems that he may be framed by the mafia. It seems like, to me, the mafia were almost entirely sitting back and letting mozsuggs commit suicide (which is basically what he did).

I'm not holding vod's hammer against him: A) someone has to do it, and B) he was pretty much pissing us all off at that point.

[vikingfan]

Given that of those left not on the moz vote are only three: Pink Puppy, darkdude, Talitha, and you say you are not sure of darkdude do you have any good reason to be suspicious of PP or Talitha?

PP seems fine to me. I would like to see more content from Talitha though- haven't seen enough of her posts to make a clear judgment.

and to quantum, I think some mafia were doing both (we're assuming there's more than one here). Usually, mafia don't all do the same thing, as a distancing measure (although moz was so suspicious, it may not have mattered much in this particular case).

[vikingfan]

vote darkdude

. I don't like the way he's consistently pressuring vod, especially to claim, without putting his vote where his mouth is.

I'm not sure yet on vod, but I know I definitely don't like the way dude is playing this.

[vikingfan]

Well you found people suspicious on day one and me on day two but now you say you fail to see suspicious people...look carefuly over day one and day two I'm sure you can find something, and to say sorry can't help town is very bad. I can uderstand this untill your own mess has cleared but try and balance this.

Like I said before I thought Yvonne was scum because of the hellbent way she wanted me lynched, but now that she is dead and proven to be doctor I'm really lost.

Is it now a crime to admit that you don't have a clue about who the scum are? I'm not saying that I'm not trying though. Just that I don't have much success. This is partially due to the fact that everyone's focusing on me now, so there's not much to work on, as said I won't try to investigate myself. If I were not the lone suspect perhaps things would be better....

And lastly you say about Akonas you think he is not very scummy at all compared to others so you obviously think of some "others" as scum or using scummy words, would you let me know if this is sort of what you ment?

This is because he's trying to help me play good as town, which is obviously a very pro town thing to do. But this is not subject to as much WIFOM as other obvious pro town actions as I'm in a huge spiral down to the lynching stage already, so a regular scum could have just left me to die without seeming suspicious in any way.

Although this could also be considered WIFOMy since we think that and then he looks better later on for helping you with little . I'm still leaning toward you as scum though I'm still a little leery after the mozsuggs case. But I don't want to just play things off just because of the newb label...that rewards bad behavior. So I'm sticking with my vote for now.

I'm also not for forcing a claim at the moment. Though, there is this to be considered. Say we find through a claim that a vig is present. Then we can leave the vig alone and lynch somebody else. Then even if the mafia kill our vig (assuming he's telling the truth), the vig can still get a kill off and hopefully kill a mafia, assuming the mod arranges the kill in a proper way. If there is no duplicate kill, then we just lynch the vig. I'm not in favor of forcing any claim, but there are some that wouldn't absolutely kill the town.

[vikingfan]

Talitha concerns me...she's said several times that she's busy but that she'll get to the game, and she still hasn't really done it yet. Please give us some more content, ASAP.

[vikingfan]

Zeddicus worries me...he posted so much day one and hardly anything today. Very out of character, and his play day one eliminates any type of restriction. If I don't hear from him soon, I'm moving my vote there.

unvote

Talitha suggested that she would be posting more this weekend...if we haven't heard something substantial from her by Monday, my suspicions will be growing.

I'm leaning toward believing VOD at the moment, at least based on his reasoning on the hammer vote.

[vikingfan]

Vikingfan - why would you move your vote to Zeddicus. Can you please give me your step-by-step reasoning as to why his lack of posting this game day make him more likely to be scum?

I didn't move my vote- I simply unvoted.

[vikingfan]

Talitha, the reason why I was considering doing so is because of the radical change in playstyle...a ton of posting the first day and barely anything since. Therefore, I was wondering if he was worried about implicating himself as scum. Now that it appears he's being replaced, I'll wait for his replacement to speak before I do anything. My apologies on being too hard on you, Talitha...it's just that sometimes it's difficult to know if someone's truly busy or if they're using that as an excuse to lurk. You're good now, at least as far as that goes. Cephrir is right, IMO...tone just doesn't translate online. But IMO, I don't think the whole thing really will lead to anything.

QF, I don't get why posting twice in a row makes DD scum...there's plenty of other things to criticize him on, but IMO, that is not one of them.

Since we're doing player suspicion lists:

zeddicus (due to what I said above, and will see what his replacement has to say)
darkdude

gap

Talitha
VOD (this is almost a tie between them)
windkirby
PP
QF
Cephrir
Akonas

Any reason QF, Akonas and PP didn't make it on your list, Talitha? and if you simply forgot, where are they ranked?

[vikingfan]

QF, I don't get why posting twice in a row makes DD scum...there's plenty of other things to criticize him on, but IMO, that is not one of them.

Where did she say that?

Very end of post 424, bottom of page 17.

[vikingfan]

My comments in bold

Why I think

Vikingfan

is scum. A recap of Day 1, by Talitha


In post 145 Zeddicus says: "we need to lynch darkdude now."

careful zed...I'm always leery of people who say we need to do things NOW... there is never a need to hurry. Longer days always help the town. Of course, there is a point where a lynch is good, but IMO, we haven't reached that point yet.

This post stood out to me. It strikes me as the kind of thing a smart scum would say trying to sound all reasonable, unhurried, pro-town and beyond reproach.
But look what he does next:

You label it as being what a smart scum would say, but it's also what town should be saying. By this line of logic, what can be considered to be pro-town can also be considered to be scummy. I don't agree with what you're saying here. Moreover, other players such as QF (post 149) cautioned against moving too early.

that being said, I'm sensing heavy scummy vibes from darkdude since he's overly paranoid at the moment and not giving really good reasons to go after Yvonne. unvote vote darkdude.

He joins the wagon he has just warned against! His words say one thing, but his actions say something different.
I think darkdude and Vikingfan could be scum together - I think vikingfan saw a wagon building on his scum buddy and did not want to miss the chance to be on the wagon early.

At this time, Cephrir and darkdude were tied in the voting (after I voted). That is by no means creating a huge wagon since they were both still equally under suspicion at this time. If I am finding scummy vibes on darkdude and there is no danger of a lynch, should I not put my vote where my mouth is. I sense you trying to lead the town with this suggestion, especially since the main discussion right after I voted was on the nature of voting. There were 7 votes required for a lynch...given the nature of the game and how often I check in, I doubted highly that darkdude was on the way to a lynch at that time. It was also very useful to, as others noted at the time, gain more information on darkdude.

Then Akonas says that he finds 146 odd. Vikingfan replies in post 157

My rationale is that I didn't like the way that he said it, but on the other hand, darkdude is nowhere near lynching, so I didn't view as suspiciously as I would otherwise have, especially since no wave of votes occurred afterward. I do agree, though, I can't tell whether he just does that or not.

He's saying that he doesn't like the way zeddicus said "we need to lynch darkdude", but it would've been more suspicious if it had caused a wave of votes for darkdude. This just doesn't make sense to me a) because if a wave of votes had occured, we should be looking at the voters rather than the person who made the comment; and b) because Vikingfan voted for darkdude immediately after zeddicus's comment and would have been a part of that wave if it had occured.
Thus his explanation to Akonas reeks of poppycock to me.

My response to what you said is twofold: A) my complaint was not so much the way he said darkdude was suspicious as that we need to lynch him NOW. I noted that, partly to myself, for future reference. B) nothing occurs in a vacuum. That is to say, we are dealing with an informed minority here. Scum could have tried jumping on and creating a lynch or a lot more pressure at this point in time when I made this post, but they did not. Now, this could have occurred for any one of a number of reasons, but the fact is that when I created that post, it was not happening. People were calling him jumpy though.

this smells WAY too much like backtracking and trying to get the pressure off. unvote vote mozsuggs You're trying to get us to believe that you're just a lazy town player, but it's just as possible that you could be a lazy SCUM player. I agree with Akonas...tell us who you find suspicious. There's 8 pages of material here, more than enough to find something useful.

It's just a small thing but I feel like the vote for mozsuggs was slipped in at the end of a sentence because he didn't really mean it. Just a gut thing there.

False. Would it have been better if I'd put it in at the end of the entire paragraph? I wasn't aware that where one put a vote in a paragraph was scummy...(sarcasm)

Then Moz is accused of saying that everyone is scum. Moz replies with post 197 "Obviously there are only two scum!-use your loaf!" Then in post 198 he backtracks to question that and asks how many scum would be in this game.

2 scum? how on earth do you know that? 3 is generally accepted but there can always be more or less. but yes, there's generally MORE than two, but that's not a hard and fast rule.

Explain that very quickly because I don't like where you're going.

The "how on earth do you know that?" is very interesting to me. Remember that Moz is the person that Viking is voting for, so why would Viking say to someone that he thinks is scum "how on earth do you know how many scum there are?"... It doesn't make sense, unless Viking doesn't actually think Moz is scum.
Secondly I think Vikingfan is very quick to jump on this mistake, rather than consider it and qestion it. He stops short of saying "die Moz die die die", but seems to be trying to move things in that direction.

This line of reasoning does not follow. Just because I thought him scummy doesn't mean I can't question him further, especially when it appeared to me that he had made a slip-up- I did not want to let him slide on it. Why can't I ask him that? This strikes me more as trying to plant an idea in the town's mind that this is scummy when it is not. What I did ask for was an explanation. BTW, do you have any comments on my other posts...you only took the first half of my posts.

I also don't like Akonas' last post...smells a little bit too much of bandwagoning on Talitha and sucking up to her.

[vikingfan]

Akonas: it's not the fact that you didn't like me, it's the fact that you felt the need to buddy up to Talitha in the process. So it's not OMGUS.

in response to Talitha, post 478: first off, townies don't want to be lynched any more than scum do. Therefore, it's in town's interest to not attract town attention for a lynch...to do so simply gets the scum one lynch closer to elimination. Playing like moz did did not help town at all. So I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

I'm not seeing the inconsistency. My phrasing of 'how on earth' implies, at least to my mind, that I'm thinking he made a slipup in how many scum there were. I'm not seeing how I should have asked the question better; just how do you know?

Akonas 480: the solution is easy, at least to my mind. Zeddicus had just been saying that we needed to lynch him now. I didn't want that, but did want to pressure him to get more information.

Emptyger: thought I had. At the time of that post, I wasn't seeing a lot from Talitha due to low content (which has since been corrected), thus I wasn't seeing her as being necessarily scummy or town since I didn't have enough information. PP is someone that falls in the middle right now...I'm not sure where she stands. As for who I'm theorizing to be mafia, see my list...I still like darkdude the most right now to be mafia.

QF: yeah, it's my train of thought. I think it's harder for votes to slip by since they have to be bolded and will thus jump off the screen at the reader. Who is your boyfriend in this game? QFT is quoted for truth.

And as a final question: does anyone know how to quote multiple posts in a single reply?

[vikingfan]

Oh, and V/LA tomorrow until late Sunday night.

[vikingfan]

QF, somebody asked (I think it was Akonas) what QFT meant, so I simply defined it. By the time I read Cephrir's thing on 3 scum, he had already clarified what he meant and I was willing to go with it.

[vikingfan]

oh, and I don't like EmpTyger's play. He did this in another completed game I was in (Les Miserables), claimed it was a joke, we lynched him and he turned up scum. Any reason you'd make a joke claim, even on a day like today?

[vikingfan]

vikingfan:
Don’t want this to get lost:

<snip>
I don't think darkdude's response to the "frame" as he called it, was that anti-town, especially since he seemed to look for some scum soon thereafter.

For the first 2 weeks of D2, it seemed that darkdude did anything but. First he said that no one was suspicious, and in particular he defended VoD. Then he reversed and said that VoD was suspicious, while still saying that no one else seemed suspicious. Then he voted zeddicus, but specified that it was for lurking, not for any suspicions.
What do you see differently in darkdude’s response?

I don't understand why you're quoting windkirby in a question asked to me. Is there something I'm missing here? My viewpoint on DD is already well documented.

I'm not sure what to make of the interaction between PP and Cephrir...feels too much like flame wars. At this point though, given how much they're attacking each other, it feels like both of them can't be scum (or if they are, they're doing a superb job of distancing).

[vikingfan]

Apologies for being out-I've been busy but am back now. I agree with PP that dramatic changes like that is scummy behavior. It's one thing to change one's mind (with sound logic to back it up), it's another thing entirely to change one's playstyle. But I'm not sure altogether that Cephrir's play matches her accusation to the depth that she claims, so I'm not prepared to vote him.

That being said, I'm still entirely happy with darkdude and in fact will vote him, for all the reasons already mentioned, both by myself and others. Hanging back, making lame excuses, and so forth.

vote darkdude

[vikingfan]

I'd prefer not to, but you get worse with every post.

So if you want to vote for me why do you say that "it will take a lot" for you to do so?

Anyways regarding your suggestion, I can change my suspicions to you, which I already explained is not what seems best to me at the moment, to Akonas or PP, who also don't seem more scummy than QF, or zeddicus-tyger, which I'm not sure what to make of right now due to the whole replacement thing. I am simply more confident that QF is scum than anything else.

Explain to me what you think she gets out of it if she's scum.

Obviously you would be her scum buddy in that case...

Outline your case against QF from beginning to end, please. As far as I see, you haven't done it yet.

[vikingfan]

I haven't forgotten about this game, but I have an important job interview tomorrow afternoon and will give my thoughts after that's done.

[vikingfan]

busy times for me right now. I'll respond to akonas as soon as I have a chance. For now though, QF has severely raised my antennae and I want to hear more from her. Cephrir has satisfied me so far with his responses pending further more info and I still see darkdude as my vote of choice- that hasn't changed.

[vikingfan]

Oh, and as for vikingfan:

After seeing mozsuggs' alignment, I'm not sure about darkdude, especially since it seems that he may be framed by the mafia. It seems like, to me, the mafia were almost entirely sitting back and letting mozsuggs commit suicide (which is basically what he did).

I'm not holding vod's hammer against him: A) someone has to do it, and B) he was pretty much pissing us all off at that point.

• Why do you think he was framed by the mafia? Was this invalidated when you voted him?
  
• You're not holding vod's hammer against him because he was pissing us off, not because you thought he was scum?
  
• You think the mafia were sitting back and letting mozsuggs commit suicide, which is pretty much what you did--you know, except for that one post where you were like "oh no he's gonna get lynched...ohwaitnevermind. Seems like lip service to me.
  
  
• Oh right, so you were voting darkdude and then
  let him commit suicide
  ... And since you knew the mafia were just sitting back, VoD wasn't mafia--after all,
  you knew what the mafia were doing... Scum.

I really really want to hear from QF prior to deadline. It's probably too late to change candidates for a lynch but I still want to hear from her.

I feel this day has been pretty much exhausted though.

As for the response to Akonas, here were my thoughts. At the time, I thought moz was scum due to his horrible play, but I still think that it was easy, in retrospect, for everyone, scum and town alike, to vote him. That's what I meant by that. I didn't know what the mafia were doing, just that it's easy to see that in retrospect.

[vikingfan]

FOS Quantum

The vote is the most powerful weapon we have and it's also much easier to track scum because of it later on. To not vote hurts the town, IMO. And this goes for TVOD too. I want to see seriously where both of you lie. There's 30 pages worth of information...there's more than enough material to draw a conclusion.

[vikingfan]

@Cephrir: Why Akonas high on your suspects list? Actually, what is your suspects list?

I don't really remember why, but I recall a few things he's said rubbing me the wrong way. Maybe it's gut as well.

My suspects list is bordering on nonexistant... basically just Akonas now that I think about it. Next up would be darkdude who I'm not really all that suspicious of, followed by the people I don't think are scum but can't get a good read due either to lack of content or just not knowing: Talitha, vikingfan, PP and zeddicus. While I'm at it, the list would continue (now in the protown end of the spectrum) with VoD, windkirby, then QF.

This post of Cephrir's jumps out to me upon rereading.

Wk, it is perfectly possible to have an SK in this game. I'm not guessing which one we have (or, for all we know, we may have both).

Having two doctors surprises me a lot- that's not usually common.

[vikingfan]

I'm left wondering why Akonas, Talitha, and QF have not posted yet. At this point, I want to hear something substantial from everybody today, especially from QF since she refused to take a stand at all yesterday.

[vikingfan]

Sorry, had a busy weekend. Will reread and post in response to everybody tomorrow...tired now.

[vikingfan]

Finally back- my apologies folks. been extremely busy lately with a job search and a suicide in my sister-in-law's family. back now though.

Now, to examine thoroughly what people are saying about me. Akonas: I see you as being suspicious because Cephrir consistently said he was going to create a case on you and then said that he would wait since he didn't seem likely to be nightkilled. Well, he was. That raises my eyebrows quite a bit that he wasn't willing to take a stand on you. Moreover, he raised suspicions on Akonas without ever really making a case as TVOD noted earlier on in the game. It smells an awful lot like distancing to me. I also don't like QF's refusal to vote yesterday and her reasoning for doing so. Those two jump most clearly to my mind. Response to Akonas again: well, at that point, 3 players hadn't posted and I wanted to hear their thoughts. Unfortunately at that point real life was interfering but I did want to hear what they had to say.

TVOD, I don't have much to respond to in your post, but hopefully my prior paragraph helps you better see what I'm thinking. if you have questions, let me know. and as I read your next post, I see that you're accusing me of using everyone else's arguments. let me put it this way. when everyone else is using the same arguments that you want to use, is it worthwhile to repeat the same argument? everyone, for example, had the same argument with moz's idiocy.