Mini #564 - Mafia in Crubtown - Game Over

[darkdude]

Additional notes:

QF had a double standard for me, saying that my posts were obviously useless, thus I was scummy for distracting the town with useless information. To my knowledge she thinks I should make sure everything I write is 100% going to help town before posting. This is stupid as no one can know what will help for sure and what will just be useless information. I have a policy of just speaking my mind if I feel like it, so that there is at least the chance of something that will help town.

She did some strange post, saying she was pressuring me with ad hominem, and then just assume it's all over and disappear even though I questioned her own scumminess. She said she'll post later on one day, but failed to do that. Seems like that with me sure to die, QF is trying to slip away.

[QuantumFruit]

Are you even reading what I wrote? Based on the "you're mean" point, you attempted to stop me from questioning Talitha. THAT'S what makes you scummy!

I didn't attempt to make you stop questioning Talitha. It was just complete WIFOM to argue that she was scummy because she hadn't posted when she gave a reason that she had a job and kids. When you continued to bug her for that, I was kind of annoyed. That's all.

Now...in terms of your list against me: I've answered your questions! I've replied. And then you insist on the same things and say I have not responded. No, the things I've said are not brilliant revelations: they are fairly obvious. But this whole case is fairly obvious. I felt you were being mean in your lack of compassion. I did not say "stop questioning her" I said "stop insisting she was lurking, she has kids and a job and it's a jerk thing to do to hold that against her." I don't understand why that makes me scummy and you still have not answered the why that makes me scummy. You keep reiterating the situation, but that's not what I'm asking you.
I did not shift my position recently; I shifted my position when we discussed the issue long ago and I realized that I was being a big too dramatic (that was when I was depressed and developing a case of insanity, so it seems fairly natural that I'd be over-emotional; Akonas can do a meta on that as well).

---

Now, in terms of how we feel about one another in this game (me & Akonas)...I thought it was kind of interesting how he did the whole paternalistic thing with darkdude, etc., kind of like adopting a pet townie if darkdude's a townie. And for a while he didn't post much, but I know why he didn't post much. So, it's somewhat difficult to build a case against him and I don't really see one. Plus, we both haven't been as into mafia lately as we were before, so I can't hold against him that he isn't putting all of his efforts into it.

---

No, PinkPuppy, I will not cave and just vote for someone. The only person there is a strong logical case against is perhaps darkdude. And even then, I'm cautious of that because he's consistently claimed the newbie thing and he doesn't seem very experienced and I truly feel uncomfortable after the mozsuggs lynch. You, PinkPuppy, distress me slightly in your confrontationalism, but I can't really base my opinions in terms of playstyle. So, essentially, back at square one - no, I cannot make a decision at this point. Sometimes, I feel very strongly that someone is scum. Then, I vote. (In very early stages of a game I might to pressure votes, but that's only early on.)

If everyone attacked one another (and I think I've said this before), I don't think the game would function. There need to be players willing to examine everything and make people think and reevaluate their assumptions.

---

Again at darkdude on his last comment: I AM NOT SAYING YOU'RE SCUM FOR PUTTING OUT USELESS INFORMATION. You said yourself that you weren't meaning for the comment to be helpful. This is a problem in and of itself. You in general tend to somewhat repeat yourself when asked a question rather than answer the core of the question. You seem somewhat shallow or superficial in your analyses and that's really what I meant when I said I didn't respect your intellect. That's solely based on your play in this game - but based on this game, I'm not very impressed. Harsh, but I thought maybe ad hominem would work to get you to think more. In some ways, it seemed like it did.

Anything that could potentially help town, darkdude, is a good thing. But if you don't think it'll even potentially help town, no, you shouldn't.

I don't want you to die, darkdude. You're a beautiful, special little snowflake. Anyway, as I said, haven't been into mafia so much and I was on a trip to look at colleges for a week. Then I had a big competition today that I was preparing for. I've been pretty busy in the last couple of weeks, so that's that. Not lurking, and I didn't know you were next to lynch before today.

[Crub]

Eighteenth Vote Count of Day 2

darkdude (4):

Talitha, vikingfan, Cephrir, Akonas

QuantumFruit (3):

darkdude, Pink Puppy, windkirby

Not Voting (3):

thevampireofdusseldorf, QuantumFruit, EmpTyger

With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch, 3 at deadline in a little under 3 days.

[darkdude]

Oh I miss-remembered the deadline lol

You said yourself that you weren't meaning for the comment to be helpful.

No, I said that I did not intend it to be something definitely helpful to the town. I thought it MAY have been helpful, which is why I wrote it in the first place.

No, PinkPuppy, I will not cave and just vote for someone. The only person there is a strong logical case against is perhaps darkdude.

And yet you won't vote for me? Saying euphemisms to try to back away since there's a bandwagon on me already? I also thought you were on the case against Cephrir?

I felt you were being mean in your lack of compassion. I did not say "stop questioning her" I said "stop insisting she was lurking, she has kids and a job and it's a jerk thing to do to hold that against her."

How was I supposed to know that she's a working mom? You could at least tell me before accusing me of being mean. However you just said that her inactivity was excused and I can't question her.

In addition that wasn't the WHOLE case. The inactivity and "convenient" posts whenever someone accused her of lurking (I recall 2 instances) are only in addition to the strange triple post I was asking about. I thought it was suspicious that these strange behaviour patterns were starting stack. One is SUPPOSED to question in mafia. I still do not understand how that would be mean, and why you were so quick to be protective of her.

Simply, if she was that busy she could have said so herself. There would be no problem in that.

I did not shift my position recently; I shifted my position when we discussed the issue long ago and I realized that I was being a big too dramatic

No, you still insist to this day that I was being mean. THAT is the stance I am talking about. You shifted because you suddenly started ad hominem on me and then excused it with "provoking activity". By that logic even if I were mean against Talitha I could have done it with the same intentions. Basically, your stated ideals about mafia and "compassion" and your actions contradict.

that was when I was depressed and developing a case of insanity

I assume you are talking about actual insanity in real life? I have no idea how to respond to that.

[EmpTyger]

Vote: darkdude

to prevent possible deadline shenanigans.

On the off chance I should die overnight, please make sure that Cephrir is tomorrow held responsible for, among everything else, his audacious stalling tactic today. No WIFOM-free-pass based on some theoretical possibility of being framed; he would have plenty enough to answer for with me alive.

[Talitha]

Hmm, I did think I was going to have more time to contribute to this game, but I haven't had a lot more to say at this point anyway.

QF - I have to side with PP on the voting issue... The vote is the town's main weapon, and also a great tool for outing scum. If you're not voting, you're not really pressuring anyone, you're not adding to the useful information that we have, you're not helping the game progress. I don't find it particularly scummy not to vote, but I do not think it helps the town to play that way. Especially under a deadline situation where someone is going to die anyway. It's not the time to sit back and do nothing. (Sorry.. this is one of my pet issues.. I can go on and on and on about it)

I'm going away in a few hours, will be back in one week... Can't see it being too much of a problem with deadline approaching. (IF I have a night choice i will send it before I go.)

[Cephrir]

Now...in terms of your list against me: I've answered your questions! I've replied. And then you insist on the same things

Now you know how I feel!

On the off chance I should die overnight, please make sure that Cephrir is tomorrow held responsible for, among everything else, his audacious stalling tactic today.

I assume you mean my lack of Akonas case. I planned to do that yesterday as I had the day off, but I've been sick for the past few days and have been putting most of the effort I care to give into my one really active game. I'll make sure it gets done before deadline no matter what.

[Pink Puppy]

So QF refuses to vote today. Interesting. Well, I'm glad she got a chance to post. I wouldn't have wanted to go to night with her being able to say "I would have voted if you had given me more time!" Now she's on the record as being too unsure after 30 pages to be able to place a vote.

I am glad her and Akonas have answered my questions about why they don't suspect each other. I think it can be hard to suspect someone you know well IRL, but I want to make sure they're both being objective.

I'm ready to end the day and hammer darkdude, but I guess Cephrir may still be able to post something about Akonas, so I will wait a little.

[vikingfan]

FOS Quantum

The vote is the most powerful weapon we have and it's also much easier to track scum because of it later on. To not vote hurts the town, IMO. And this goes for TVOD too. I want to see seriously where both of you lie. There's 30 pages worth of information...there's more than enough material to draw a conclusion.

[Akonas]

elt you were being mean in your lack of compassion. I did not say "stop questioning her" I said "stop insisting she was lurking, she has kids and a job and it's a jerk thing to do to hold that against her." I don't understand why that makes me scummy and you still have not answered the why that makes me scummy. You keep reiterating the situation, but that's not what I'm asking you.
I did not shift my position recently; I shifted my position when we discussed the issue long ago and I realized that I was being a big too dramatic (that was when I was depressed and developing a case of insanity, so it seems fairly natural that I'd be over-emotional; Akonas can do a meta on that as well).

---

Now, in terms of how we feel about one another in this game (me & Akonas)...I thought it was kind of interesting how he did the whole paternalistic thing with darkdude, etc., kind of like adopting a pet townie if darkdude's a townie. And for a while he didn't post much, but I know why he didn't post much. So, it's somewhat difficult to build a case against him and I don't really see one. Plus, we both haven't been as into mafia lately as we were before, so I can't hold against him that he isn't putting all of his efforts into it.

This is all based on emotion and "why can't we all just get along?" The game is not about getting along; it's about finding scum and killing them, trying to find the jerks who are trying to kill us, and then running them up and hanging them. The game is inherently mean. Now, I know we've got to be somewhat sivilized ("otherwise we'd be no better than them!"), but seriously,

be meaner

. Oh... and don't forget to vote!

Anything that could potentially help town, darkdude, is a good thing. But if you don't think it'll even potentially help town, no, you shouldn't.

"Potentially"? Who's to know what could potentially help? That's kind of a crappy claim, if you ask me.

I don't want you to die, darkdude.

I will not cave and just vote for someone. The only person there is a strong logical case against is perhaps darkdude. And even then, I'm cautious of that because he's consistently claimed the newbie thing and he doesn't seem very experienced and I truly feel uncomfortable after the mozsuggs lynch

Would you prefer No Lynch?

[Cephrir]

Well, I honestly don't find much Akonas has said since my analysis of him, save for a few wording issues (mostly from him referring to darkdude as a townie, like, three times). His case on vikingfan was mediocre and his posts just seem a little forced. I also have some lingering doubts about some of what I said about him before. So basically, I still get the gut feeling about him but there's nothing concrete. I'd say he's still third on my scumlist, but I should probably isolate everyone's posts from the last time I did it until now. I'll do it over Night since I don't seem likely to be NKed.

[Cephrir]

EBWODP: First clause should end with "since my analysis of him

suspicious

[windkirby]

- I still believe that lynching darkdude is a horrible idea and a baseless bandwagon.

Would someone please provide some hardcore evidence that he is scum?

I haven't found any! I've already asked for this and barely recieved a response.

- If we are lynching darkdude, what kind of information are we hoping to achieve? If he's town, who do we turn to? If he's scum, who do we turn to? If your answer to the above is that we're lynching him for information, please answer these questions.

- I don't really like the way that Akonas suddenly started talking to QF more aggressively, as if he's been "caught," but this may not be indicative of alignment.

- In conclusion, I think the darkdude bandwagon is total crap, and I'm becoming increasingly suspicious of anyone on it. Stop me by providing some reasons.

[darkdude]

Would someone please provide some hardcore evidence that he is scum?

To my knowledge the reason is a combination of the deadline and my ambiguous behaviour so far. They wish to see the true intentions behind my posts to make out what they couldn't before. Pardon me for "giving up", but I think it's a valid option. I am causing a bit of a distraction as I am right now.

If we are lynching darkdude, what kind of information are we hoping to achieve?

This is what I asked Tyger. He originally said that it would be easier for town to hunt scum if me or Cephir's alignments were known. I asked back what conclusions would he draw if I turn up town, and he refused to answer. Therefore, he is my second suspect, next to QF.

[darkdude]

Although, I see a slight flaw in your last post just now.

If he's town, who do we turn to? If he's scum, who do we turn to?

I'm pretty sure that town's kind of in trouble after losing the doctor on night 1. If I were scum there would be nothing to worry about as it is good for town anyways, even if associations could not be identified (which is also not true as I see many cases pairing me up with Cephir, Akonas, yourself, etc).

[EmpTyger]

Cephrir:
You’ve often said you find Akonas suspicious. But you' never show any inclination on following up- I shouldn’t have to force someone to present a case on someone they find suspicious! Now, you’ve [finally] said that you don’t know why you find him suspicious- but the thing is, you never have wanted to find out why. You aren’t aggressive against him in the way you have been towards others. It just feels insincere from the top to bottom.

---

darkdude:
This is more for the rest of the town’s benefit than yours.

<snip>

If we are lynching darkdude, what kind of information are we hoping to achieve?

This is what I asked Tyger. He originally said that it would be easier for town to hunt scum if me or Cephir's alignments were known. I asked back what conclusions would he draw if I turn up town, and he refused to answer. Therefore, he is my second suspect, next to QF.

My primary motivation for voting you is not to gain information about others, but rather over suspicious I have of you.
Regardless of your alignment, Cephrir needs attention.
If you happen to be innocent, then I really like my Cephrir-Akonas theory.
If you happen to be guilty, then windkirby and PP deserve scrutiny.
None of this is anything I haven’t said before.

[Cephrir]

Cephrir:
You’ve often said you find Akonas suspicious. But you' never show any inclination on following up- I shouldn’t have to force someone to present a case on someone they find suspicious! Now, you’ve [finally] said that you don’t know why you find him suspicious- but the thing is, you never have wanted to find out why. You aren’t aggressive against him in the way you have been towards others. It just feels insincere from the top to bottom.

Since I made my first case on him, I've been assuming he still would seem like scum. Of course I wanted to find out why earlier, when I made said post. Besides, gut is a perfectly legitimate reason to suspect someone. Actually, when you're not me, it can be a very good reason. My feelings have to be right eventually though.

[Pink Puppy]

So QF and Cephrir come up with nothing new before deadline. Good to know.

@windkirby... if you can't see why DD is scummy then I don't know how I can show you. There has been a lot of posting about him, so just go read that.

unvote; vote darkdude

[windkirby]

I've kept careful tabs on all the postage since the deadline and I still don't see it. Just give me a few posts that set off your radar.

[Crub]

Final Vote Count of Day 2

darkdude (6):

Talitha, vikingfan, Cephrir, Akonas, EmpTyger, Pink Puppy

QuantumFruit (2): darkdude, windkirby

Not Voting (2): thevampireofdusseldorf, QuantumFruit

[Crub]

Just before the sun reaches the horizon, with the sky full of golden rays, the town finally comes to a consensus. darkdude will be today's target. With the memory of mozsuggs' unfortunate end still fresh in your minds, everyone hesitates momentarily, but then someone in the crowd mentions the cold blooded slaying of YvonneSeer, and everyone gathers around darkdude with renewed vigor.

You swing the rope around darkdude's neck, refusing to listen to his pleas. "At least have a plan for finding the scum tomorrow when you discover that I am not connected with the mafia." After thinking for a moment, you all agree that's just the sort of thing one of those mafia types would say. You all pull with all your weight and with a sickening crack darkdude's neck breaks as you hoist him up onto the other side of the town's famous bull statue.

You perform a thorough search of darkdude's home and possessions and cannot find any evidence of a connection with the Big City mafia. A sob is heard from the crowd, as you all realise that darkdude was a vanilla townie.

It is now Night 2. Night 2 will end on the 1/5 @ 1:00am GMT (in a little over 72 hours from now). I may end night early if all choices are in before then.

[Crub]

As the cows line up in front of the dairy getting ready for their morning milking, the first rays of sunlight creep over the horizon. One by one you all emerge from your homes with trepidation. Not having discovered any mafia members at this point you all figure that more innocent lives have been lost during the night.

It doesn't take you long to figure out that what ended yesterday as a hopeful band of 9 has now sadly been reduced to a scared group of 7.

EmpTyger is the first person you notice missing. You go around to his house, and the first thing you notice is a waiting room filled with magazines, and EmpTyger's slumped body in the corner. You all suddenly remember that EmpTyger has actually been your family doctor for the past 20 years. How could that have slipped all your minds?

Cephrir is the other missing person. Well known as the local auto-mechanic you head over to the garage to investigate further. Sure enough you find Cephrir's body laying in pool of blood. You rifle through his belonging's and find a loaded pistol. This discovery prompts you to investigate further, stashed in a toolbox you find a large sum of cash along with the business card of a well known Big City mobster. Cephrir was quite obviously working for the mafia.

It is now Day 3, with 7 alive it takes 4 to lynch.

[darkdude]

Go town!

[windkirby]

Well, well, well, seems as if we do have a vig afterall. (SK's aren't allowed in this kind of game, right?) Anyway, as of now I'm suspicious of Akonas and Quantumfruit, and hopefully another readthrough will help me out.

[vikingfan]

@Cephrir: Why Akonas high on your suspects list? Actually, what is your suspects list?

I don't really remember why, but I recall a few things he's said rubbing me the wrong way. Maybe it's gut as well.

My suspects list is bordering on nonexistant... basically just Akonas now that I think about it. Next up would be darkdude who I'm not really all that suspicious of, followed by the people I don't think are scum but can't get a good read due either to lack of content or just not knowing: Talitha, vikingfan, PP and zeddicus. While I'm at it, the list would continue (now in the protown end of the spectrum) with VoD, windkirby, then QF.

This post of Cephrir's jumps out to me upon rereading.

Wk, it is perfectly possible to have an SK in this game. I'm not guessing which one we have (or, for all we know, we may have both).

Having two doctors surprises me a lot- that's not usually common.