PIRATES v. NINJAS! Game Over!

[Claus]

Confirm Sir!

[Claus]

LoL cicero - I'm preparing for 2008's xmas already. You seem to have something against the Big Capitalist Sale, I think you're a communist.

But, since we're looking for pirates and ninja, not communists:

vote: Guardian

Discussing the setup is for the weak or the scum.

[Claus]

1- Haiku's don't work when they are not in japanese. English has no mora, haikus in english are an aberration, and people who write them should be summarily killed.

2- Discussion about the setup is bad. We had two deaths (a gangplank death and a knife death), and a half-cop revealed. Now we should be concentrating on suspicious behavior, and getting someone lynched.

3- Confirming with a "Yar, captain" is not a pirate/ninja/whatever tell. Pirates are cool, even if they are scum in this game. I was planning to do my opening vote similarly, but cicero's and Guardian's posts gave me a better and less random idea.

4- This is space for sale

5- I like the Gorrad Bandwagon more than the TSQ one. Mainly because Gorrad seems to be even more concerned with cracking the setup open than Guardian.

Unvote. Vote: Gorrad

6- expect me to skip any posts that contains more than 3 paragraphs.

[Claus]

No, I didn't. At least not in the part you quoted

Point 2 only contains mod given information. Discussing past what the mod has already given us goes into FUD territory.

If you REALLY wanted to pick on me for being contradictory, on point 3 I actually go out and say that I think pirates are scum.

Take that!

[Claus]

???

... rereading ...

Ah, you mean that "neck cut and beaten to death" could be 2 deaths because of the "and"?

Meh, I can see it going both ways. This is exactly the kind of speculation that we can go without D1, since tomorrow we will know which of the options is true quite easily.

[Claus]

1- I really don't like the bandwagon on Iammars - Guardian's reason for it are weak. I can see Guardian honestly believing the accusation he made, but I think too many people are too ready to agree to it.

I mean, a random bandwagon for that? Sure! But the discussions that are floating around this bandwagon are a little too deep for one post made before the game even began.

2-

I'm glad that claus pointed out the 'neck cut' as the pirate death...

I didn't say that. In fact, I believe the opposite. But as Thesp said, this is not relevant to D1.

3- Guardian: FUD stands for "Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt". This is what I think that happens when people spend too much time early in the game obsessing about the setup. I'll try to use less Acronyms.

4- Jordan, MGM:

I don't agree that most of the contents is in the large posts. I think shorter posts are better to evaluate what a player honestly thinks.

But because I liked the two of you, and I'm concerned about your concern, I have revised my current policy. Now I may skip posts with more than

4

paragraphs. Satisfied?

5- Gorrad:

I think that early discussion of the setup is a possible scum tell, because it drags the town into fruitless discussion. Discussion of player behavior is better.

I don't like your timidity with supporting the Iammars wagon, but not voting for it.

Also, I don't like when people say "Oh, I have no leads". Don't be timid, we won't laugh at you if you tell us who you suspect!

But anyway, I'm happy with my vote.

6- Thesp:

You say that Iammar's alignment tells us about Gorrad. Why? That flew completely over my head.

============================
I'm mostly suspicious of Thesp and Gorrad right now.

FOS: Thesp

[Claus]

Guess what -- almost everyone is weak. Very few people are going to go back and read 30,40,50 pages of day one nonsense. Maybe this game has an disproportionate amount of such people -- but I know at least that I am not one of them. I hope I have support in this.

I agree with you about large day ones. I think a D1 would benefit most from 4 or 5 quick large bandwagons in succession, followed by a lynch.

Although I still think your current bandwagon sucks. If you had to vote someone else, who would you vote and why?

Wanna start a Thesp bandwagon?

I also want to see Cicero contribute more. Hey, cicero! Come back or you're not getting a xmas present this year.

[Claus]

Claus, could you outline briefly and in one post the reason for your suspicion of Gorrad?

1- Early on Gorrad was a bit too interested in setup discussion
2- Then he get all "Ooh, these reasons are weak, but they are also strong, but I can't see anything better", on Iammar's wagon.
3- When he is called on it, he backs down from pointing at Iammars, and says he has "no leads". When I press him further, he generally waves towards both bandwagons.

[Claus]

If you guys really are serious about lynching Iammars, how about trying to make him speak with some questions?

Iammars:
1- If you could day vig two people in your bandwagon, who would they be and why?
2- Are you suspicious of anyone not on your bandwagon? why?

[Claus]

Time to juggle my FoS and my Vote:

FoS: Gorrad
Vote: Thesp

[Claus]

And seriously, what were you expecting me to say? I don't see how my answer shouldn't sway Gorrad.

You could try answering my questions, or start talking about other people a little.

[Claus]

Time to juggle my FoS and my Vote:

FoS: Gorrad
Vote: Thesp

Forgot to unvote, sorry mod.

unvote.
Vote: Thesp
FoS: Gorrad

[Claus]

And you accuse me, like it is some treasonous act to bring up something you think is suspicious.

I don't think cicero is accusing YOU Guardian. (I may be wrong). By overreacting, you are giving a lot of space for the late Iammar wagoners to hide.

Your play, then, can be easily seen as scum waiting to see where opinions fall and then tipping the scales whichever way youplease.

I don't see this. Mainly because Cicero jumped on a player who was under almost no pressure whatsoever, over a point that was not brought up before.

That said, I really wanted Cicero to come up with a little more in terms of who he thinks about the thread so far. I liked his observations, and I want more. So:

-> Cicero, did anyone in particular (or multiple people) in the two bandwagons caught your attention? TSQ is one... anyone else?

I might add that on at least one occasion I foolishly tried to interject with a moderately lengthy response, forgot to cut it to clipboard, and had it destroyed by a delicious CPU quota error.

Blaming the Computer is something that only Commie Mutant Traitors do. The computer is your friend.

[Claus]

Oh, ninja'd. Well, at least I got to make a question.

[Claus]

Ninja'd means that you were writing something, and someone else wrote the exact same thing in the time that it took you to write your post. Forum jargon.

[Claus]

Hey, Samruc! Sorry for passing your question before.

@Claus: (Again) Why talk about lynching Iammars, when he wasn't even the biggest wagon?

1- Actually, at the time of that post (page 8/9), Iammars had 5 votes, and people were seriously advocating his lynch. So I think his wagon was pretty "for real" at that time.

2- And if you read that post (and all my posts, for that matter), it was a post _criticizing_ the iammars bandwagon. I was asking Iammars questions, something the Mars bandwagoners were not bothering to do.

---
Let me ask you something in return,

1- What exactly did you mean with that question? The way you word it, it seems I was supporting that wagon, when it was quite the opposite.

The fact that you ask that question again shows me it was pretty important on your point of view, so I want to understand the reasoning behind that question better.

[Claus]

I feel very comfortable with a Thesp wagon, but as we draw closer I wonder about the wisdom of a Thesp lynch.
I am flattered that two of three major wagons in this game were in some sense led by me;

I was so proud thinking that the Thesp bandwagon was MY doing...

[Claus]

Well, I did make a case against Gorrad back when I was voting him. It was actually one quick bulleted post summing up my complaints. Interesting that you missed that.

Thesp was pushing too hard, and too seriously, a much too silly bandwagon. And then later he begins to cheer both bandwagons. Thus the vote.

Twomz, I'd suggest you to be more productive, if you hate it so much. This "sorry sorry sorry" just makes me want to put you in the "shake this guy to see what falls off" list.

[Claus]

Well, I did make a case against Gorrad back when I was voting him. It was actually one quick bulleted post summing up my complaints. Interesting that you missed that.

This directed at me? I specifically said people currently voting Gorrad. You are not.

This was not directed at you, the whole post was directed at twomz. Re-read, without the idea that you're the center of the universe

[Claus]

Iammars, what about being useful to the game?

It would be nice to hear who you are suspicious of/who YOU would like to lynch/who do you think has bad motivations irt your bandwagon.

When I check your posts in isolation, all you do is defend against your wagon.

[Claus]

Mod, votecount?

[Claus]

Hrrrm... Hrrmm...

Part of my reason for voting Thesp is that I had this impression that he was linked with Gorrad. But now he is voting Gorrad and Gorrad is OMGUSing him back. I guess I'll switch my vote again:

unvote, vote:Gorrad
FoS: Thesp

And I need to re-read some people, and read some people I haven't been paying much attention to yet. But this will probably not happen before wednesday.

[Claus]

O.O

Okay.

[Claus]

99% the vig was just a ruse to try and rat out some scum - thus the "answer this quick" after the post. Also the mod has already done a votecount since the "daykill", so it is almost certainly fake.

That said, I wouldn't be sad if the Vig were real - although I think dayvigs are better spent on severe cases of lurkititis.

[Claus]

doh. Ninja'd by Gorrad's roleclaim. Meh, need to re-read heavily.

[Claus]

unvote

[Claus]

Vote: Sir Tornado

This is a policy vote. Will be removed if Sir Tornado gets replaced/dies/starts playing. Or when I get around to re-read this game.

[Claus]

Meh. Are you guys really going to give SirT a lurker pass? sad. Well, he is not the only one being given one.

Now now, Mars, Thesp or Kscope?

Thesp: I don't want to lynch you nomore. We should be getting rid of scummy and lurky players early in the game, not scummy and wordy players.

Kscope: Yeah, I could certainly jump on his bandwagon, but not before making a few questions:
- Who should we be bandwagoning, instead of you?
- Of your current bandwagoners, who is more likely to be scum, and who is more likely to be town?
- What do you think of the Thesp/Guardian debate?

Iammars: I like guardian's new reasons more than his old reasons, and Iammars did not answer the questions I made him - to the point of quoting a joke statement of mine in his "all players" post, instead of answering my question. So hey:

unvote. Vote Iammars

[Claus]

Eh? Really?

- Asking for other players to advance the game:
Call me stupid, but I don't see where I did this. You mean the Kscope questions?

- Not advancing the game:

1- I think that asking simple, direct questions is a way to advance the game.
2- I also do think the Iammars wagon deserves more notoriety. Until I decide if I want to vote Kscope or not, this vote is a good cause.

===
So, I'm putting my ass on the line by booing Thesp wagon and cheering Iammars wagon. I don't think my last post is as bad as you put it.

[Claus]

Claus, I wasn't attacking you i was giving my input on why I was voting Kscope.

Ah! That is why I thought your post didn't make sense!

Sorry about that.

[Claus]

Also, if you believe scummy lurkers should be lynched, why go after Iammars? He's not the shining example of participation, but there are plenty of people who are worse lurking offenders.

True. I was voting for SirT earlier, but no one seemed to care about him.

As for Iammars, besides being a lurker, he also failed to answer a few simple questions I made to him, and tried to remind him at least twice, I think. While the "He confirmed as a pirate" reason is completely bogus, even for D1, I'm having this impression that he used the bandwagon to gather supporters to him without having to actually play the game or take any instance, and I don't like that.

That said, seeing the last active player other than me leave the Iammars wagon, that vote seems pointless now.

On another note: I expect a lynch within the next 3 days. We don't want to lynch hours before the deadline only to have the target make a believable claim without enough time for an alternative lynch.

True, let's put a "avoid no-lynch vote" on Kscope then:

Unvote. Vote: Kscope

I'll try re-reading him later.

[Claus]

Are you talking about the one that basically asks me who I find scummy? Can't you get that from my catchup post?

To be honest, no.

I really want to lynch Guardian, but I will vote him only if we get more people either off of the one-of votes or off of the k-scope vote. We need to lynch someone, and with Stoofer's unusual deadline rules, we need to be careful of how we vote at the deadline.

What do you think about Thesp?

[Claus]

Hey, some words are directed at me!

I protest lynching Iammars. First off, unless there's an idiot vigilante killing night zero, I think it's fairly safe to conclude there are two killing factions. That being said, one of those factions will eventually

kill Iammars/"partner"

either under suspicion of the masonry being disadvantageous down the line, or under suspicion of being part of the opposing scum group.

Maybe I missed something, but did Iammars claim mason or something? Or are you talking about Gorrad/Cow?

Meh. Are you guys really going to give SirT a lurker pass? sad. Well, he is not the only one being given one.

The problem, I think, is the fact there are more lurkers than just him. Kscope is condoning his own lurking.

That is true. Guess what? My vote is sitting on Kscope now! Lynching lurkers for great justice.

And btw, welcome Xtomx!

Unvote
Vote : Guardian
(...)

I know Guardian acts similarly as town, but I find that I dislike what he's pushing far more.

I don't agree with a Guardian Lynch. I agree with the the guardian-stubborn more than the guardian-scum theory.

That said, guardian, becoming pissed because people are mad at you is stupid. Your original vote for Mars was stupid, and throwing a tantrum because people say it is stupid is even worse. Acknowledging that you are "sensitive" should mean a higher level of self-awareness, not an excuse to behave like a princess. :-/

That said, If I weren't voting for Kscope/a random lurker, I would vote for one of these people (out of my head):

- Thesp: For jumping around bandwagons, and pushing the Yarr-Lynch
- Xtomx/SirT: for jumping the Yarr wagon with "great logic that"
- Mars: Not for the Yarr, but because he is grabbing the chance of looking like a victim, and not doing much else.

But none of the above reasons are worthier than lurker lynching, right now. There are a few more that tingle my scumdar, but for even weaker reasons, so not worthy mentioning right now.

Ugh. Honestly, 25 people is way too much people to take in at once. :-/

[Claus]

Clause, are you allowing Guardian's stubbornness to mislead you into thinking he is more likely to be town as a result of it? I am disregarding his outburst - I've seen him become upset over games as scum. However, his push for Iammars simply disturbs me. What do you think of it?

The problem is - and now I see that I was wrong as well - Guardian was not ALL THAT stubborn against Iammars.

Surprised? Me too! I had the same thing in my head until I decided - in order to reply this post - to re-read guardian.

----
He talks about varied people in his first few posts, and then gives 'mars a vote for the "yarr" reason. But he removes that vote before 15 posts when I invite him into the Thesp bandwagon.

When Erg0 starts questioning guardian for his leaving the 'mars bandwagon, guardian starts defending his original position again.

Then he has a long two way omgus fight with thesp, and on post 61, when the deadline is fixed, he votes mars again.

Then he gets into an OMGUS fight with Thok.

79 comes kinda out of nowhere (both erg0 and guardian). Erg0 insists on the "yarr" point to criticize guardian, and guardian insists in holding his point to his honor.

Then he starts fighting with people on his bandwagon. Then he explodes.

-----

So here is the result, Kison. If you really disregard his outburst, he was not THAT stubborn re. the Iammars wagon, until people started accusing him for it.

So no, I don't think guardian is scummy enough to warrant a vote now. Specially if you're voting him because of "his push for Iammars".

[Claus]

Unvote

Indeed, not a role that will survive to the endgame.

I like the Rosso Carne bandwagon. Just re-read him... and there is nothing to read there. If it gets 24h to deadline and RC is not lynched yet, you can count on me jumping on this bandwagon.

FOS: Rosso Carne

That said, right now I'd rather

Vote: Thesp

Because this wagon needs more care and loving.

[Claus]

Claus, do you really think we have a tracker in addition to the info role we already have dead which implies another like it?

Role Fishing ftw

[Claus]

... Yeah, I'm being dumb. Sorry TSQ. I'm hungry.

Answering your question: This is a big game. Two halfs of a cop and a tracker is not improbable.

[Claus]

Hey!

I would prefer a thesp lynch, but it seems it is not happening.

So,

Unvote. Vote Rosso Carne

as promised.

Xtomx - you understand that your current vote on Thok contributes to a "no lynch" right?

[Claus]

Wake up, check MS: Roleclaim wars
Clean the house, have lunch, check MS: D2 is done.

That was a bit too quick :-/

[Claus]

Yeah.

vote: erg0

[Claus]

Oh, and call me paranoid but,

MBL, why did you kill Thok and not Erg0 last night? I'm assuming "arm cut off" was your doing.

[Claus]

We're wasting time with this. Erg0 is trying to distract us. Let's go ahead and lynch Thesp, the last Goblin will off Erg0, and,

with luck, Skruffs will die some way or another soon.

Double play! Distract from Erg0's 'slip' and try to direct competing scum groups as well!

DOUBLE fos!

Gorrad is a claimed mason, and his partner died.

Just saying.

[Claus]

- Suspecting Thesp makes sense... but not because of this latest MGM theory. I re-read MGM. The idea that he was pushing hard on a Thesp lynch because he had inside cop information doesn't really gel with my reading of his posts.

Yes, his D1 play does not say that, but re-read his D2 play. His early vote on Thesp does seem like a cop sign to me. And he had reasons to investigate Thesp N1.

So I think the MGM theory does weight against Thesp.

Still, folks, Erg0 is the play today.

[Claus]

In fact, as I pointed out his initial D2 vote was on Guardian.

No, it was not. It was the "in other news" vote for Thesp. Then again, that was his second post D2, I thought it was the first.

[Claus]

I don't believe Thesp's claim. I don't actually believe he even has the power he claims - it is the kind of claim that is too easy to say "why use it now, we can save it for later, huh?".

And Scruffs, I'm not Guardian's partner. But I can see where you're coming from. I fell squarely in the "Oh my he is stressed let's give him some breather room" trap. Better look elsewhere.

[Claus]

Yeah, sure. I'm totally avoiding the Thesp Lynch.

Because pushing for a Thesp Lynch D1, and saying straight away that I don't believe his roleclaim is completely avoiding a Thesp lynch.

Fact is: I would lynch Thesp, but right now I like the Erg0 wagon more. I might change the vote later, if it looks like it is indeed Thesp, and not Erg0 who is getting lynched today - but right now, both wagons seem to have the same size and momentum.

[Claus]

Okay. I have briefly read what happened while I was away. I apologize for the abscence.

I'm soon going on a trip, and I'll probably be away until Wednesday.

Now, I only have 20 minutes to post (spend most of my time replying to the newbie I'm on, sorry), so I'll be briefer than I wanted.

- MBL, I see that you made a PBP analysis of me and found me wishy-washy. Well, I disagree, I think, at least WRT thesp, I was pretty clear that I found him scummy. But ask me to answer your question in more detail once I'm back from my trip.

- Erg0 claim: Did not convince me. "Yeah, guardian targetted me, but I'm totally not scum"

- Thesp should/should not dayvig discussion: If he IS a day vig, I think he should be responsible for his powers, not the town. My basic theory is that using powers is the business of the power role and no one else. Things work smoothier that way.

That said, I still think thesp is lying about his power. So I'm also not going to chant "thesp! Kill X!" because I believe he can't.

- Mars: Argh. You shouldn't have claimed. But since you did: Have you considered the possibility that you are a Naive cop (there are no vampires in the game)?

Also, the fact that you are a vampire finder tells nothing about Erg0, in my opinion.

====

I'm ambiguous on Erg0/Thesp. I'll leave my vote on Erg0 while I was away, since I'm (slighlty) more certain that erg0 is scum.

Sorry about not being around.

[Claus]

Also, the fact that you are a vampire finder tells nothing about Erg0, in my opinion.

Let me expand on this before I go.

Erg0's "claim" (buffy) is related in theme to Mar's (vampire hunter). But the power is not.

Kscope fakeclaim (clinton) is related in theme with my rolename.

That is why I think Mars got the wrong conclusion.

Yeah, my role is/was an american politician. That is all I'm telling.

[Claus]

I had myself pegged as paranoid from the pre-game. I still crumbed my results, though.

This game completely flew over my head. Lots of people, and lots of active people, too much going on at the same time. The timing was also kinda bad, since I had a few trips in feb that kept me away from the computer. I was completely wrong about the few guesses I made about the game.

That said, I had a lot of fun reading it, specially the day-night scenes.

I don't quite get the pirates NK'ing me though. I wasn't the most helpful of the townies, and I don't think I was that scummy either. And even though I did partial claim, I think I had left a pretty clear crumb of my role earlier ("This game is making me paranoid" or something like that). It seems I would be more useful to the scum alive than dead.

See you next game.

[Claus]

EBWOP: Oh yeah, and thanks for the game