PIRATES v. NINJAS! Game Over!

[Gorrad]

I wasn't very suspicious, no. I understood were people were coming from, but the basis of the wagon was so weak that I figured it had to be a trap I would be interrupting again by pointing out. I never intended to vote for him.

I don't believe this for a moment. I hope a vig has good sense and kills you dead tonight.

I'm a Hale and Hardy person. I think I can stand your disbelief, especially seein' as how I have nothing more to say on the matter.

[Claus]

Time to juggle my FoS and my Vote:

FoS: Gorrad
Vote: Thesp

[Claus]

And seriously, what were you expecting me to say? I don't see how my answer shouldn't sway Gorrad.

You could try answering my questions, or start talking about other people a little.

[Twomz]

...Wikipedia is no help? ... I almost want to revote Iammars just to find out what his role name is now. Have you tried google or yahoo?

[Thok]

1) Thok, I was clearly responding to gorrad, who I had FOSed in my previous post, and not clause. Are you reading my posts at all?

2) I'm leaching off of a day 1 page 9 pressure wagon which is not even halfway to lynch? Thats a good one, thok.

1. OK, so you were attacking Gorrad and not Claus. That doesn't actually change the point of my comment. Doesn't the fact that Thesp asked a questions which (according to you) had essentially one answer strike you as weird? I don't see why you haven't thought about this issue (and it's clear to me that you haven't.)

2. I'm sorry. Should I have let the wagon gain five more people and then started attacking you? You were clearly trying to put pressure/encourage a lynch on what was the fastest developing wagon at the time, for reasons that are mediocre at best. I feel like you're putting yourself in a position where you can press for an easy lynch, while allowing yourself to allow other people to take the blame for the wagon if it goes wrong.

[Thestatusquo]

Thok. Bandwagons are good d1. I take plenty of credit for this bandwagon. Does that make you feel better?

Also, the question that Thesp asked was irrelevant to my point. My point was that Gorrad attacked Iammars for claiming with pirate flavor. Then, when Iammars got back and said "LOL, I WAS JUST BEING SILLY" Gorrad hops off as quick as a teenager when the girls father walks in, saying "We'll I'M reassured." However, this is problematic because it's literally the only response that Iammars could make to the suspicion besides "Oops, I guess you caught me," If either of these players comes up scum, I will be looking at the other one rather hard because of that.

Even if Iammars is not scum, Gorrads action is dubious at best, because he's still jumping off of a wagon with little or no provocation, which means that he probably shouldn't have been on it in the first place...

Actually, I've talked myself into it.

Unvote, vote: Gorrad.

[Claus]

Time to juggle my FoS and my Vote:

FoS: Gorrad
Vote: Thesp

Forgot to unvote, sorry mod.

unvote.
Vote: Thesp
FoS: Gorrad

[Erg0]

I should actually

Unvote

since Mgm has clarified.

Based on the Iammars mess, I'm tossing up between Thesp, Guardian and Gorrad right now. I'm going to reread all three and see what I come up with.

[Thok]

Thok. Bandwagons are good d1. I take plenty of credit for this bandwagon. Does that make you feel better?

No, because you were still on the wagon for mediocre at best reasons.

Wagons are good day 1. But that doesn't mean all day 1 wagons are equally valid.

[Guardian]

I just read the last page. And then Thesp in isolation. And then Gorrad in isolation. And then Erg0's recent posts, in isolation. And then Thok and Thesp arguing.

I'm too tired to articulate my thoughts beyond saying:

I think Thesp and Thok may be scum together. Yes, I said it. Thesp. And Thok.

I think Iammars alignment is fairly unknown, Gorrad may be scum but not with Thesp. Erg0 is unlikely to be scum with Iammars.

Reasons later.

unvote, vote: Thesp

I feel much better about Thesp [being scum].

[mikeburnfire]

Did a quick reskim. I see why people think Gorrad is suspicious now, but I don't think he'll get my vote for it. Maybe later. I think Guardian and Thesp look pretty pro-town, and TSQ gives me a good feeling, as opposed to my first impression. Thok still looks clean too. I don't have anything bad against Claus either.

I guess the only ones that I really suspect are Gorrad, Iammars, and the lurker populous.

[Thok]

I just read the last page. And then Thesp in isolation. And then Gorrad in isolation. And then Erg0's recent posts, in isolation. And then Thok and Thesp arguing.

I'm too tired to articulate my thoughts beyond saying:

I think Thesp and Thok may be scum together. Yes, I said it. Thesp. And Thok.

I'd like to hear your reasons for this. In particular, if you drop a mess of garbage as your argument, I will be moving my vote to you. I just spent 4 months dealing with scumGuardian in Open 19, and I'm going to have little tolerance for that sort of behavior here.

[Kison]

Hi,

Guardian, please explain the Thok<->Thesp link. Don't you think it's a little bit early to be drawing those kinds of conclusions?

I still view the Iammars wagon as a joke.

Gorrad still gets my vote for now.

Bye!

[Mr Stoofer]

Vote Count

Gorrad: 7 (Fritzler, Flameaxe, The Fonz, UltimaAvalon, Mgm, Kison, Thestatusquo)
Iammars: 3 (Thesp, Sir Tornado, mikeburnfire)
Thesp: 2 (Claus, Guardian)
UltimaAvalon: 1 (JordanA24)
Thestatusquo: 1 (Rosso Carne)
Kison: 1 (hasdgfas)
Claus: 1 (cicero)
cicero: 1 (Iammars)
Skruffs: 1 (Samruc)
Thestatusquo: 1 (Thok)
Thok: 1 (KaleiÐoscøpe)

Not voting: 4 (Skruffs, Gorrad, Twomz, Erg0)

13 to lynch!

Deadline will be ~15th February.

Under Rule [05], nobody would be lynched at deadline.

[Guardian]

In any event, Thesp, could you provide a more detailed analysis of this Iammars-Gorrad connection?

Perhaps later.

This made like 1000 alarm bells ring in my head. My first game on this site had Thesp scum. Thesp scum refused to respond to stuff, said he'd do it later, and when he encountered something inconvenient would just be like "oh I'm not gonna explain this" -- "why is not explaining stuff bad"? Add to the fact that I really see NO Iammars-Gorrad connection, and it seems Thesp might just be stalling or trying to cover. I really think we deserve to hear what connection he is talking about.

Then I looked at this tidbit, that seemed very disingenuous to me:

I wasn't very suspicious, no. I understood were people were coming from, but the basis of the wagon was so weak that I figured it had to be a trap I would be interrupting again by pointing out. I never intended to vote for him.

I don't believe this for a moment. I hope a vig has good sense and kills you dead tonight.

Considering Gorrad's original thoughts on the wagon:

I see where people are coming from on the Iammars wagon, but I think it's kind of weak reasoning.

FoS: Iammars

. Iammars, thoughts?

Also, Erg0 started making a lot of sense about Iammars, and Thesp's:

I'll try a hypothetical: if you were in the position that you believe Mars to be in, would you have done the same thing that you believe he did? Why or why not?

I don't know, nor can I know.

Seems off -- if I was in the position I believe Mars to be in, I don't think I'd confirm with pirate flavor, it would be making far too great an assumption, knowing Stoofer. I could see

someone

making the mistake, but basing our lynch off of that with no other info about Iammars.. seems wrong, now. And I find it odd Thesp couldn't put himself in Iammars shoes with any degree of accuracy.

Considering his questionable stances -- and the fact that he is pushing and piggybacking on the two largest wagons in the game -- makes him seem like opportunistic scum.

The one thing I must note about Iammars is that I find it surprising he is taking so long to find his role on wikipedia, when all roles are supposed to be easily findable on wikipedia.

This is a decent point, which was not at all what JordanA24 is saying. Note that it doesn't require a bazillion assumptions about the setup, just that there is a group of scum who are ninjas, and who are not comprised of pirates (and are otherwise unaware of what other roles might be out there before N1), which currently seem very, very reasonable to make.

You realize, of course, that I've hinted that I'm uncomfortable with making one of the assumptions you've suggested.

Yes, which I've alluded to - I'm awaiting Iammars's pirate/non-pirate claim first. It's also partially why I don't think you should be allowed anywhere near the endgame. (I admit it's early to commit to this line of thought.)

This harks back to the mysteriousness I don't like -- and to me, it started looking like it might be distancing. Possibly I was too rash in saying you might be scum together, but for some reason it started to feel that way.

Thok, what bothered me about you, aside from what I've already mentioned, is that you didn't act as I would think town Thok would, from 4 months of playing with town Thok. You learned from nightless and extensively metagaming me in other games that I am at fault in that I can be somewhat OMGUS-y, in all situations -- and I would expect town Thok to press on anyways when I basically questioned the validity of all your accusations against me. Instead you replied to TSQ without a word about me.

That's basically my reasoning -- reading Thesp, then reading Gorrad, and seeing that Thesp's stance, particularly that portion I quoted, didn't make much sense, reading Thesp's dealing with Iammars, and then some emerging doubt about whether Thesp might be scum with you, Thok.

Erg0's comments also started making sense to me about how I would never do what I accused Iammars of doing, and then I also read the infuriating:

I do not hold Guardian's suspicions on me against him. I agree with almost everything he says.

I see that some people think the Iammars wagon is weakly justified, while others see it as a good day one lynch. I tend to agree with the latter, though I would like to have a few more suspects before the Day ends. To do this, I will have to sift backwards and determine if I think other wagons (like the one on Gorrad) have any foundation.

Which, while does not at all make me discount MBF, can be very hard for scum to say, as it basically opens you up to more attack. It was infuriating because I felt pretty good about MBF as a second choice to Iammars, but that post to me is either very good scum or town. Being the direct opposite of OMGUS is very hard to do in any situation, particularly as scum who has even more than natural incentive to be defensive.

[Guardian]

Thesp is giving the taste you get in your mouth when you bite into a piece of bread and then realize it's fuzzy.

Everything else aside -- I agree with this.

Sometimes I really question why I bother to post such long and effort consuming posts, it always comes back to bite me in the ass , because given enough content you can find *something* you don't like about someone's thoughts, and mine are not always particularly clear. Yet, Skruffs, for example, I predict won't be questioned at all about this statement. :\. I think after this post I'm going back to haiku for a bit.

Also: Fonz's post at the top of page 7 smells to me like someone tryign to communicate with their scum buddies.

Why?

Skruffs, please change your avatar, it really bugs me and makes it hard to take you seriously at all.

[hasdgfas]

I can see Thesp more than Thok at this point. I understand and see the possible Thesp-scum arguments and surprisingly, agree with most of them. I don't like the Thesp-Thok connection though.

unvote, vote: Thesp

It's the strongest evidence I've seen on anyone so far.

[mikeburnfire]

I really don't think the evidence is all that much stronger than the suspicions against Gorrad. Still, it's probably better than the case against Iammars. But I honestly don't see

any

kind of scum connection between Thesp and Thok.

unvote, vote Thesp

[Skruffs]

Good. Maybe it disconcerts the rest. Of the scum,, an game play.

fos : guardian and thesp

Consider this the 'beginning' of the shit you are going to get.

Thesp, you covered your 'slip' by saying you were trying to encourage scum to claim ninja or pirate.

Guardian, you explained the reason behind the case on iammars by encouraging people to make the assumption that ninja scum would think the opposing team was town.

However:

Players

(dead):

1. MrBuddyLee - Luke Skywalker (Vig) - throat slit and beaten to death Night 1
   
2. DrippingGoofball - Jack Aubrey (Pirate Finder) - forced to walk the plank Night 1

NOTE: In the above list, pro-town roles appear in black text; anti-town roles appear in coloured text.

Both of these roles are protown.
Thesp: asking for a vig to kill someone, when one vig is already dead?

Guardian: Pirate finder: suggests they find pirates. Since it's a protown role, that suggests pirates are scum.

Thesp: neither role is a pirate or a ninja.

Both: both of your suggestions make the assumption that scum would post without any foresight or consideration whatsoever.

[Thesp]

Now I'm wondering how, if you don't know how you'd behave in the situation you posit, you can reasonably draw a conclusion on Mars' situation based on his behaviour. Do you feel that you know him so well that you're able to draw such a conclusion based on a single word?

BECAUSE THAT'S HOW WE PLAY MAFIA. That is my best guess as to

why

he said what he said. I can't know how I would have reacted in such a spot, even if I have a couple of guesses as to the answer, because I wasn't there. However, seeing a reaction (or a phenomena, if we want to make this all scientifical and empirical), it's perfectly reasonable to ask what underlying motivation is most consistent with such a phenomena, and/or whether such phenomena is more likely to be indicative of a particular underlying motivation. While it is nearly impossible to "know" a conclusion in these circumstances, it is quite common (and good play) to have best guesses at these conclusions and run with them.

It's one thing to say I don't know how I would act in such a circumstance, and it's significantly different to say I am thus incapable of determining the significance of how someone

did

act. It doesn't follow.

Seriously man, you're assuming that I assumed something about the setup in a Stoofer game? I joined this game just to be surprised by what Stoofer comes up with. Besides, I learned to stop outguessing the mod with no information when I became a mod myself.

THIS IS NOT ABOUT OUTGUESSING THE MOD. No one is suggesting you gave this much thought - especially since it was just a confirmation post.

That's precisely why the thought process could be there - it's just a quick check-in with unusual flavor to it.

It also seems less likely that someone would have a non-pirate role and confirm with pirate flavor if they weren't trying to throw someone off in some way.

I'm a Hale and Hardy person. I think I can stand your disbelief, especially seein' as how I have nothing more to say on the matter.

If you're going to claim, claim all out. Stop piddling around.

Guardian, please explain the Thok<->Thesp link. Don't you think it's a little bit early to be drawing those kinds of conclusions?

This is wrong for several reasons.

This made like 1000 alarm bells ring in my head. My first game on this site had Thesp scum. Thesp scum refused to respond to stuff, said he'd do it later, and when he encountered something inconvenient would just be like "oh I'm not gonna explain this" -- "why is not explaining stuff bad"?

Have I ever done this as town, or is the exclusive domain of ThespScum?

I am beginning to get the suspicion that most of the scum are likely to be the people who haven't been part of the posting diarrhea, and are lurking. I also have a sneaking suspicion that he's likely town as well, based on something he said.

Unvote: Iammars.

Still not happy with Gorrad, though admittedly my suspicions of him being protective-scum for Iammars are subsided.

Thesp: asking for a vig to kill someone, when one vig is already dead?

I do find it noteworthy that you are acutely aware of who has died.

FOS: Skruffs.

Small, but notable.

Both: both of your suggestions make the assumption that scum would post without any foresight or consideration whatsoever.

How many people were dead during confirms?

Also:

Did a quick reskim. I see why people think Gorrad is suspicious now, but I don't think he'll get my vote for it. Maybe later. I think Guardian and Thesp look pretty pro-town, and TSQ gives me a good feeling, as opposed to my first impression. Thok still looks clean too. I don't have anything bad against Claus either.

I guess the only ones that I really suspect are Gorrad, Iammars, and the lurker populous.

I really don't think the evidence is all that much stronger than the suspicions against Gorrad. Still, it's probably better than the case against Iammars. But I honestly don't see any kind of scum connection between Thesp and Thok.

unvote, vote Thesp

Huh? I think I missed something here.

[Thestatusquo]

I too noted that, though I am not sure what my read on Thesp is. (leaning on agreeing with guardian, though.)

[Kison]

Guardian, please explain the Thok<->Thesp link. Don't you think it's a little bit early to be drawing those kinds of conclusions?

This is wrong for several reasons.

Yeah? And I am suppose to take your word for that?

[Guardian]

Good. Maybe it disconcerts the rest. Of the scum,, an game play.

What're you talking about,
Skruffs? You think I'm scum? And you

want

to distract game?

Also Skruffs, I notice that
you didn't respond to my "Why?"
Fonz not important?

fos : guardian and thesp

Consider this the 'beginning' of the shit you are going to get.

Guardian, you explained the reason behind the case on iammars by encouraging people to make the assumption that ninja scum would think the opposing team was town.

However:

Players

(dead):

1. MrBuddyLee - Luke Skywalker (Vig) - throat slit and beaten to death Night 1
   
2. DrippingGoofball - Jack Aubrey (Pirate Finder) - forced to walk the plank Night 1

NOTE: In the above list, pro-town roles appear in black text; anti-town roles appear in coloured text.

Both of these roles are protown.

Guardian: Pirate finder: suggests they find pirates. Since it's a protown role, that suggests pirates are scum.

If by shit, you mean
bad argument, this is it.
None dead when Mars confirmed......

This made like 1000 alarm bells ring in my head. My first game on this site had Thesp scum. Thesp scum refused to respond to stuff, said he'd do it later, and when he encountered something inconvenient would just be like "oh I'm not gonna explain this" -- "why is not explaining stuff bad"?

Have I ever done this as town, or is the exclusive domain of ThespScum?

Not that I've seen. Show?
Any response to anything else?
Or are the rest true?

I am beginning to get the suspicion that most of the scum are likely to be the people who haven't been part of the posting diarrhea, and are lurking.

Why do you think this?
Do you want to make friends now?
Explain your thinking.

Seriously man, you're assuming that I assumed something about the setup in a Stoofer game? I joined this game just to be surprised by what Stoofer comes up with. Besides, I learned to stop outguessing the mod with no information when I became a mod myself.

THIS IS NOT ABOUT OUTGUESSING THE MOD. No one is suggesting you gave this much thought - especially since it was just a confirmation post.

That's precisely why the thought process could be there - it's just a quick check-in with unusual flavor to it.

It also seems less likely that someone would have a non-pirate role and confirm with pirate flavor if they weren't trying to throw someone off in some way.

This bit makes good sense.
I can really see it both ways.
Thesp can too, I guess :

I also have a sneaking suspicion that he's likely town as well, based on something he said.

Unvote: Iammars.

Still not happy with Gorrad, though admittedly my suspicions of him being protective-scum for Iammars are subsided.

Thesp: What did he say?
Your new points are logical.
What exculpates Mars?

---

I see that no one
sees Thesp<-->Thok besides me.
I shall look again!

[Thestatusquo]

I could see thesp thok, but not nearly as strongly as you are positing it. In addition, I think it's way too early to be looking for scumpairs. Lets just find one scum first, K? Then we can focus on their partners.

[Skruffs]

Huh. I guess I was to busy BEING AWARE OF MOD REVEALED ROLES (apparently this is fos worthy) to notice that the argument on iammars. Is based on his confirmation post.

Thesp:
Why is looking at the roles of dead players "scummy", but directing power roles isn't?
And you bypassed the meat of my thrust: that you 'tried to get scum to claim' as one of the two titular groups *after* it became 'public knowledge' that a vig and cop (both town) were not either.

Based on you fossing me, and talking about the vig that is already dead, I am guessing that you are setting yourself up to claim that you hadn't looked at the day scene, and thus didn't know any of that..

Not checking out the facts about iammars's "arr" is my fault: my post was with the thought that iammars had started off the day with that post.

If we want to use confirmation posts as scumtells, why hasn't anyone brought up mbf's post where he said he would enjoy playing with mbl?
A) communication
B) I'm not saying that mbf is scum, but him saying it opened up the possibility of wifom by giving scum a target that most likely would not lead back to them (which, if mbl was cut AND beat up, infers that at least two parties did just that)

Anyways, ignorance doesn't win games.