Open 674: Duck Duck Goose [Game Over]

[outoforder]

I don't like repeating things because i expect people to have read the thread when they post (because why would you if you haven't?). The only thing it does is it fill the thread up with useless questions and people are repeating same things over and over again. It is unnecessary.

[outoforder]

[quote="In post 1423
My case is very simple. havingfitz did something he earlier said is not pro-town. Town players do not do things that they think are not pro-town. Therefore the only conclusion i can come to is that he is mafia. What is so hard to understand in that? It is very simple logic. If havingfitz was town he would here be

working against something he himself believes is good play

(i.e. he intentionally plays bad). Town players do not intentinally play in a way they consider bad townplay.

Rels why did you never understand / see this? This is basically what your cases/reads usually look like. You think from the other person's mindset and see if it makes sense or not. This is something that should be clear as a day for you. You not only see this in the first place (in the post), and later on you don't see it when me (and Hapa kind of) point this out. That is super weird because you SHOULD be reading AT LEAST our posts.

[outoforder]

I don't like repeating things because i expect people to have read the thread when they post (because why would you if you haven't?). The only thing it does is it fill the thread up with useless questions and people are repeating same things over and over again. It is unnecessary.

If your objective is having a clear thread, your post saying "it's in my filter" was pretty bad, it would be better to have replaced the content of that post with "here is a link to my townread and it hasn't changed".
DONT BE A JACKASS

Sorry but i am not doing your work for you. I have never done that and i won't start now.

[outoforder]

[quote="In post 1423
My case is very simple. havingfitz did something he earlier said is not pro-town. Town players do not do things that they think are not pro-town. Therefore the only conclusion i can come to is that he is mafia. What is so hard to understand in that? It is very simple logic. If havingfitz was town he would here be

working against something he himself believes is good play

(i.e. he intentionally plays bad). Town players do not intentinally play in a way they consider bad townplay.

Rels why did you never understand / see this? This is basically what your cases/reads usually look like. You think from the other person's mindset and see if it makes sense or not. This is something that should be clear as a day for you. You not only see this in the first place (in the post), and later on you don't see it when me (and Hapa kind of) point this out. That is super weird because you SHOULD be reading AT LEAST our posts.

dunno. But the logic contained here is bad. Fitz CAN be against you having walls of text while posting walls of text while catching up himself.

That was not the point. The point was he said he wont read walls if they are boring. You know what is the most boring thing you can do in a mafia game? Write 1000 words without being asked to and ending the post with "cya i will post reads later" (=absolutely 0 conclusions). That's the catch here. As i said, in mafia terms that's the literal definition of boring. So he wrote a post he should himself consider boring (aka "don't read") if he is telling the truth in all occasions here. Why would you write a post you consider not helpful towards finding mafia as town? Why would you write a post you would not read yourself if someone else wrote it?

[outoforder]

I'll give you an example of a similar post, here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/4 ... ge=62#1224

Starts from "atm i think A", writes 1000 wordsand ends up in "i think A". Always mafia post.

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In almost all cases yes, it does make the person mafia.

[outoforder]

Anyways i am gonna take a shower and then i am gonna gather up all the questions fitz has asked me this game and quote my answers from my filter and then i am gonna call him a liar scum again.

[outoforder]

i have thoughts on the rels/kidamn interaction going on but im saving them while i wait for the big damn mistake that's a-coming down the pipe
someone in this thread isnt paying attention and i won't say whooooo

Nah, that shit didn't fly D1, it doesnt fly now either.

if you mean me not talking about the interaction:
i am waiting on something to happen

if you mean me not talking about the person not paying attention:
theyre the one whos going to flub it and im waiting to see if its a townflub or a scumflub

talking about who im watching specifically defeats the purpose, they know they need to modify behavior
talking about the interaction itself makes both sides self-aware and feel exposed, which increases the chances they make a dumb move, which is the whole point
and talking about it in this weird circular way also increases those chances for the same reasons

that dumb move will tell me much more about them (especially the one im looking at the most) than most of the rest of their play will today

Beware though. People are gonna make a big fuzz about it for no reason and then start calling you scum when you explain because "you created a big mess". Trust me i know what i am talking about! I am interested in this though since it looks like you think you're onto something good. Hope it's something good.

[outoforder]

Spoiler: fitz' questions and answers

outoforder....is Ooo an acceptable reference to you?

No it is not an alt. I know hapahauli and Rels from another forum.

outoforder....is Ooo an acceptable reference to you?

Yes.

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Is your RVS meta on hanapulali from this site or another one?

See the above answer. Now if you went to look at my post count on mafiascum and then look at the post where i gave my answer to the last question you would very clearly see that i have played zero games here. Then you put 1+1 together and your question is answered (before you even asked it...).
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Are the 3 of you good at reading each other? Is there reason to assume any different dynamics between TLM and MS will affect your ability to read each other?

Hapahauli is basically playing below his level. He is not being as smart as he is supposed to be and his scumgame is wel.... quite bad.

[...]Now i didn't expect Rels to 100% pick this up, but IF he does pick this up, he is most likely going to be town in this game since

his scumgame (while being quite good)

, lacks "going into depths of posts", and it's impossible to emulate a townie trait like that as mafia since you are playing from a completely different mindset. [...]

@Outoforder, while you catch up, weigh in on Rels for me as well.

I cant tell if Rels is mafia on D1. My townread on him is genuine but i understand he could be scum. He thinks so alike i do i always end up on a townread on him on d1 (unless he does something completely retarded). I mean, my play is based on logic and if the logic ppl are using is making sense in any way or not. Rels probably knows my logic, so if he is scum he will also know what to tell me. I tried being super sneaky on him at the start of the game since he HAS made blunders on that before. But yeah, i prolly end up thinking he is town in 80% of the time regardless of his alignment because i am a sucker for logic.

This should be enough to tell fitz that yes, i think i am good at reading hapa and no, i don't think i am good at reading Rels at least on D1. Furthermore Rels said me and him have fooled each other early on in the game. So i consider this question answered from my part.
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On that note...what do you mean when you say I am going to be a pain in the ass because I am not going to get anything you are saying?

[...]
So what i do conclude, regarding MooginSoosy (and to havingfitz too), is that if they are town they are probably going to be a pain in the ass to convince of anything i think is true because they will not be getting what i am saying. Or they are mafia, who just like to make people possibly annoyed so they can call them out for that later on. [...]

I can't possibly see how i can say this more clearly. Ironically this is probably the post the question is based on....
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142 - @OoO...what does X being personality driven have to do with X being alignment indicative?

So why did Moosin and I get your discredit?

Yeah, one would think why. Two questions based on the same thing (post) that already answered both of the questions...
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143 - OoO...what did you establish from Aubrey's answer to your proofreading question?

I am getting a bit tired of this... If i (or anyone) don't follow up on a question it probably means they think the person gave a townie (or at least not scummy) response. This is like asking "why do you question your scumreads?".... Does anyone here think people should post literally every little thing that goes in their mind? If the question had been "i can see your question to Aubrey here. I don't understand why you made the question since it looks pointless to me. What did you expect him - as mafia - to answer? Because it also seems like the answer didn't provoke a scummy reaction from him." that would have been a good question, because it can actually achieve something.
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169 - @OoO...At this point in the game why are you town reading Creature? Because at this point in the game he has made ~20 shit posts.

My read on Creature is based on that he doesn't really care about how people see him, and what people think of him. It looks like he's got the mindset of "fuck you i don't have to tell you anything i don't want to, here is just what i think. I will give you my reasoning when i please". I know a player who works the same way and still, when you read the posts you get a gist of where they are coming from. If you don't, they are probably mafia - which isn't the case here imo.

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OoO...it looks like you have meta'd a few players to develop your reads on them. Have you on me?

No, i don't need to. Scummy stuff is scummy. I would have posted i have if i had, obviously.
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340 - @OoO...why are you scum reading me? And if I am the scummiest player in the game to you...why aren't you voting me?

Alrighty.
[...]
I also have a town lean on Aubrey, for his psot #117 and the comment + vote on Havingfitz, since i share the same thought about his play. [...]

Basically everyone else is a complete non-entity. Except for Havingfitz who i have a slight scumlean on for reasons Aubrey outlined, and Hapahauli who i honestly think is mafia.
[...]

[...]
I don't care. I vote when i actually am fairly certain someone is scum. If people wanna paint it as hesitant scum then they do. ^^
[...]

At this point you are a scumlean. When i unvoted hapahauli you don't magically become super obvious mafia just because i think noone else is scummier than you. If you had (again) read my posts you would know when i do vote and when i don't.
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380 - OoO...you tell Hawk that when you think someone is mafia you tell it and lay out your reasoning...where is your reasoning for having me as the scummiest player in the game?

See above *sigh*
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Also...OoO....post 869 is terrible. What part of your "filter read" comments on me are actually alignment indicative?

Btw i still think havingfitz is scum. I went to reread his filter and what he basically did in his wall of text was this:\
- I don't like wall of texts -> writes a wall of text -> the conclusion he ends up in is "now let me continue and post my reads later".......

VOTE: havingfitz

It says that in the post you asked about.... Disagreeing with my read or calling it bullshit is one thing, but it's a whole other thing to ASK the dude basically "this thing you find scummy for me, do you think it's alignment indicative". I dont even... :p
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can you remind me (or actually state for the first time) why it is you scum read me?

see above.
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Deflecting a case on him based on nothing that was on the case != "here is why you are wrong". It is "i am discrediting you gor other atuff because i cant prove you are wrong".

What case? Remind me of your "case."

I quoted this whole post so everyone can see what i have said BEFORE he posted this.
Again, see above.
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And there, all his questions have been answered, yet after the last post he keeps telling i am scum because i haven't answered his questions.

Now what does this mean regarding havingfitz? You can all think about that, i spent almost an hour doing this only because someone asked me really dumb questions, got their answers in a way or another, yet people can't see anything wrong with it. I'll follow up probably tomorrow or smth. I found some other juicy things there too.

I did power through it and found some good stuff in it but please OoO...can you be more concise? The longer a post is the less likely you are to get the information through to people. If something concise needs to be elaborated on you can un-concise specific points later.

Do you want to know what he talks about in this post? A post of mine that was un-concise because people WANTED ME TO ELABORATE MORE on a very concise thing.
Dear god i don't even know what to say anymore. ^_^

[outoforder]

Oh i skipped a question:

142 - @OoO...what does X being personality driven have to do with X being alignment indicative?

Nothing, i never said such thing. He is probably referring to this:

Because the point of RVS in the end is to start the game and do something to get out reads. So when people, after that X point (see more about this after the next quote) continue the game "without the X being there" it becomes, at least in my opinion, alignment - or at least personality - indicative.

Alignment idigative (for people i know) - Personality indicative (for people i don't know).
I never claimed one has to do something with the other.

[outoforder]

I think it's more likely he's scum than Rels. Look at how Hawk reacted when I replaced in, wrote a huge reads list and posted a case on Hap. He said it was a good one, unvoted KidAmn, and voted RELS. Why would he vote his partner when a case was made against a townie?

Do you remember what was the votecount at that time?

[outoforder]

that cant be true since i know at least i unvoted right after that and Hawk's post came over 80 posts after.

[outoforder]

Thanks for that though Cass.
So at post 888 we are looking at:

[L-4] Hapahauli - KidAmn, Creature, BlackVoid
[L-5] KidAmn - Rels, hapahauli
[L-5] Kop - Aubrey, doomfeathers
[L-5] Rels - Kop, Hawk
[L-6] doomfeathers - MooginSoosy
[L-6] havingfitz - outoforder

[outoforder]

Shockingly, I'm actually going to agree with Rels and ask you for an explanation here Cass. You're making it sound like you want Rels and I to keep dancing for your amusement here and I'd rather not continue until I know the tune.

Just let it go for now, when the elaboration comes we can figure out if it makes sense or not.
If it's her "wanting Rels and you to keep dancing for her amusement" it's gonna show.

[outoforder]

BlackVoid:

I don't find the argument as compelling as you do. I don't understand why does he call Hapa his #1 scum suspect at the time in the first place if he fears Hapa is getting lynched and is his partner. He doesn't really have to. Like why not just call Rels mafia there instead? Furthermore this sticks to my eye so hard:

Yeah I think if Hapa flips town Rels and OoO feel like good counter points. OoO has done a much less spectacular job outside of that first section of the game. Which with a little bit of coordination and some use of TL meta could all be contrived info. Of the three Hapa looked the worse but was also the one being setup if he flips town.

I don't like that OoO comes back with such a misrep on Cass feels like it's rather odd and kinda LAMIST. Then distraction wagon of Fitz who hasn't been corner for concern since much earlier in the day.

I'm okay with Hapa lynch today, if he flips scum I'm looking at Rels if he flips town look at OoO.

If we don't lynch Hapa, Rels is my backup because I think those two will yield the greatest information gain.

KidDamn looks like lynch bait by Rels Hapa wagon.

VOTE: Rels

Pedit: Kop echos sentiments here but I'm still concerned he's pushing Rels more than Hapa... but if that's the case I can easily see Kop Hapa if it's not Rels Hapa or something along those lines.

Also Kops point that Rels could flip scum makes me feel much better about Kop since he doesn't need to push Rels here if he's scum with him and they could just force that Hapa lynch.

Because what i see there is a setup to lynch 2 townies assuming Hapa is town (as he is basically telling "if people wanna lynch Hapa i will follow").
Do you really think he is actively trying to lynch Rels based on a case like "he's my #2 scumread and will yield most information if we lynch him"? Because i don't.

[outoforder]

Also Kops point that Rels could flip scum makes me feel much better about Kop since

he doesn't need to push Rels here if he's scum with him and they could just force that Hapa lynch.

oh my...
i so do this when i am mafia. i so do just the same because i am an arrogant prick. ^_^

[outoforder]

come on you were never gonna get lynched and you know it aswell as i do.

[outoforder]

there was never anything to commit into later because BV lead the town into Aubrey -> Hawk.
Hapa was not really a "viable" wagon when BV started doing stuff for reals.

[outoforder]

read a little further ahead, just after the vc where the rels wagon has 4 people on board -- hes saying he doesnt want a rels lynch today, he wants a hapa lynch d1, hes just pressing rels for (???? something about a lynch)

If this is true seems like he wasn't wanting to lynch Rels after all.. ^^

[outoforder]

come on you were never gonna get lynched and you know it aswell as i do.

??? So ? It has nothing to do with the argument.

Ofc it does. It has everything to do with the argument.
Regardless of your affiliation he is (as mafia) voting off the mislynch wagon ("town credit" + a scumread on you AND ME on D2 in case hapa flips). And he still keeps the backdoor for voting hapa open.

[outoforder]

@Hawk - how did you go from "Hap looks the worst of the three TL players and Rels is my backup," and saying that you are "okay with a Hap lynch, look at Rels if he's scum" to voting Rels? Then you say you are concerned that Kop is pushing Rels and that you could see Hap/Kop or Hap/Rels. Based on all of this, you should be voting Hap so I have no idea how you winded up with a Rels vote.

You distinctly left off a grand portion of my sentiments there including that I feel like of the three Hapa looks the worst but is also the one being pressured most and could be BEING SETUP either for a bus or a ML. Look at how OoO and Rels initially pressure and vote Hapa then Rels backs off from one reentering post by Hapa. At first during the day I dismissed almost that entire section of the read to being meta driven TL stuff but now that you pointed out more concisely that I can see a case for Hapa that isn't meta driven I'm worried that the Meta read from Rels and subsequent back off is either setting up Hapa as a Bus or as a ML.

Like Hapa's wagon has 0 resistance, (asside from me town reading his AtE earlier.) No one is actively saying we shouldnt vote Hapa except for Hapa.

That is like giant red warning signals flashing for me and I think since Hapa isn't going anywhere and we can just lynch him tomorrow even if it doesn't go anywhere applying pressure and possibly lynching associatives can put town one step closer to finding all 3 scum.

I mean say we lynch Hapa today no question to Rels motivations for saying no wait stop or Kops motivations to voting Rels instead of Hapa or anything Cass is doing or anything else. If Hapa flips town now where are we. Pushing Rels cause he called Hapa town? Pushing Cass, Creature, KidDamn and Everyone else who said Hapa is scum? oh wait that's everyone (sans kinda Rels and maybe OoO?)

Yeah I'm fairly certain Hapa will flip scum but I want more traction laid down by Rels and everyone else who has any motivations for not lynching Hapa. They have to be accountable whether he flips scum (likely) or flips town (unlikely).

Like this isn't us pushing a mislynch. We probably lynch Hapa today. But we have time. We still have what 2 days to talk? And OoO still hasn't really weighed back in besides a redux back onto Fitz which doesn't sit well with me either.

Pedit: I'll respond to Fitz in a minute. I'm just worried that Rels who seems to be the most active TL member who seems to TR Hapa and I want to know why.

nvm hes completely incoherent here
i bolded the standouts though -- its clear he wasnt looking for EITHER WAGON to hit lynchpoint

I think what you bolded basically is trying to say "i want people to vote for Hapa but i don't wanna do that".

[outoforder]

Also Kops point that Rels could flip scum makes me feel much better about Kop since

he doesn't need to push Rels here if he's scum with him and they could just force that Hapa lynch.

oh my...
i so do this when i am mafia. i so do just the same because i am an arrogant prick. ^_^

If we are talking about associative reads this is the best thing i have seen here (i am not saying this is the case but i kinda want it to be).
"Let's call someone town for a reason that should make people think i am town too for the same reason without me trying to tell them i am town, like they can figure it out by themselves, i just pointed them to the "right" track."

After this game if Rels happens to be mafia, i wanna know if this is true or not, because i tip my hat to you Hawk if it is, that's quite smart!

[outoforder]

I had a nice reply typed up then my phone fucked it all up by restarting itself for a update. So I will post this when I can get in front of a computer since I actually have a lot to say about this.

But to answer that last part BV yes I intend baring us finding some really good reasoning based of Rels response to lynch him. Move back to Hapa to end the day with that lynch.

ah here we go.

So basically he put his vote on Rels with "let's see what Rels says so i can decide if i keep my vote on him or not", right?

[outoforder]

I mean because he still votes Aubrey pretty easily....

[outoforder]

Also Kops point that Rels could flip scum makes me feel much better about Kop since he doesn't need to push Rels here if he's scum with him and they could just force that Hapa lynch.

Actually i think this quote most likely proves Hawk knows Hapa is town.

[outoforder]

OOO are you working on the idea that I'm scum; Hawk is my partner; and he voted me over Hapa ?

Yeah why not? You weren't gonna get lynched anyways and when your wagon gained some traction he was quite happy to put his vote elsewhere. I don't see the problem in how his voting cannot make you mafia.

[outoforder]

I am not saying it makes you scum lol.
I am saying it doesn't exculde you from his possible partners like BV suggested.
I am never going to make a case on someone based on "this mafia guy said X or Y about this A dude therefore he is scum". That's just retarded imo.

[outoforder]

Hawk does spend a lot of time discrediting the Hap push though. See "

Rels and OoO are off playing Mafia on TL forums and responding with meta alignments and indications I wanna vomit at how much all of their case against Hapa initially was noise and I couldn't dig into it myself

" in 659. He also votes both Kop and KidAmn when they were counterwagons to Hap but never actually votes Hap himself despite saying he's suspicious of him.

As mafia, why would you want to be on a mislynch wagon? He never also says "no, do not lynch Hapa! He is town!".
For me it looks like he realizes (incorrectly) that people are most likely going to lynch Hapa (especailly since @ post 888 which you initially quoted) there are already people (and the mindset in MS seems to be) who were like "we can't lynch anyone else" or "do not derail the wagon". For me it looks like it can just as easily be that he thinks "where ever i put my vote (without a real case) it doesn't matter". Do you disagree that is not a possibility?

but you are saying it makes Hapa's town. Which is ridiculous.

It's not. That's what mafia usually do. Try to make people do stuff that gets blamed on them (in this case hapa mislynch) instead of you.
+ the quote, of the quote is so good.

and while you're saying "I am not saying it makes you scum lol.", you're spending quite a lot of time giving hints to that direction. And that started to change Cass' read for example.

Afaik Cass doesn't read you scum because i said you are scum because of what Hawk did (as i haven't said so so it's impossible). If Cass thinks one of you and Hapa is scum and my posting influences her to think it's more likely you than Hapa, then i am happy, because i feel the same way.

[outoforder]

I don't care Rels, if you wanna perceive/put it that way then you do. But i literally don't care because i am not doing that.
Lynch me then, i dare you!

[outoforder]

[quote="In post 1607
now, that aside: @OOO, BV has a point that hawk avoided the hapa wagon like demon-possessed plague
theres two narratives here:
1: hapa is scum that hes trying to derail from off wagon, and he faked a slip for distancing if he gets lynched
2: hapa is town and hawk was pushing from off wagon for towncred from vca, and he made a genuine slip

which feels more likely to you?

I can't tell from that only. But think about if a mafia dude said something about you that "makes you their partner". How do you ever defend yourself as town? Because you can't, as you are not the person whose actions are considered. I hate those kind of reads because mafia occasionally do that and if town buys it there is nothing you can do about it, and it's retarded imo, you are judged based on someone else's actions.

I am not saying what Hawk has ever said makes Rels mafia, however much he wants to yell that to ppl. I am saying (and answering BV) that i don't think Hawk's actions make Rels town, as he suggests. In fact they make Hapa more likely town than Rels. That's what i think, if someone wants to sue me for it i don't care, i am just writing what i think is the truth here.

[outoforder]

If yes, why are you ignoring that post where Hawk said "mm too many people wants to vote Hapa it's suspicious" just after voting me ?

Because the post doesn't mean anything in the scenario i find most likely. I have literally just argued about it.

If yes, why are you saying Hawk jumped off my wagon to Aubrey's when my wagon was starting to have a lot of people ?

Clarify please, i don't understand the question.

[outoforder]

[quote="In post 1607
now, that aside: @OOO, BV has a point that hawk avoided the hapa wagon like demon-possessed plague
theres two narratives here:
1: hapa is scum that hes trying to derail from off wagon, and he faked a slip for distancing if he gets lynched
2: hapa is town and hawk was pushing from off wagon for towncred from vca, and he made a genuine slip

which feels more likely to you?

I can't tell from that only. But think about if a mafia dude said something about you that "makes you their partner". How do you ever defend yourself as town? Because you can't, as you are not the person whose actions are considered. I hate those kind of reads because mafia occasionally do that and if town buys it there is nothing you can do about it, and it's retarded imo, you are judged based on someone else's actions.

I am not saying what Hawk has ever said makes Rels mafia, however much he wants to yell that to ppl. I am saying (and answering BV) that i don't think Hawk's actions make Rels town, as he suggests. I

n fact they make Hapa more likely town than Rels.

That's what i think, if someone wants to sue me for it i don't care, i am just writing what i think is the truth here.

This is the retarded part. I cannot believe you can believe that. It doesn't make sense. At all. And apparently you're making this judgement call without even rechecking everything since you asked Cass for posts. That makes no sense

Why so? What makes my posts contradictional from the thought process you think i am having?
See this is why your stance on fitz was so fucking fishy. Now you're doing (or trying to look like you are doing) what i would expect you to do if you're town.

[outoforder]

If yes, why are you ignoring that post where Hawk said "mm too many people wants to vote Hapa it's suspicious" just after voting me ?

Because the post doesn't mean anything in the scenario i find most likely. I have literally just argued about it.

WELL THEN GO CHECK IT BEFORE MAKING CALLS

If yes, why are you saying Hawk jumped off my wagon to Aubrey's when my wagon was starting to have a lot of people ?

Clarify please, i don't understand the question.

You said:

OOO are you working on the idea that I'm scum; Hawk is my partner; and he voted me over Hapa ?

Yeah why not? You weren't gonna get lynched anyways and when your wagon gained some traction he was quite happy to put his vote elsewhere. I don't see the problem in how his voting cannot make you mafia.

Which is false, when he switched to Aubrey I only had 2 votes left on me.

The post doesn't mean anything. If you do think it means something then fucking say what instead of calling my thought process (you apparently have no idea about) scummy.

What is false there? Having votes != thread sentiment. Thread sentiment suggests that Hawk started deflecting from lynching you (which he never really did try in the first place tbh) when people got somewhat interested in it. The number of votes you were having when he unvoted is irrelevant.

[outoforder]

They is the inverse mindset.
"Scum is not voting X but is voting every other wagon available"
This is the original information.
"X is scum". Makes sense. That's the straight up way, trying to protect his teammate.
"Nothing can be said abou it". Makes sense too. That's the WIFOM way, maybe scum is hoping X gets mislynched.
"X is more likely to be town". That makes no sense.

Except that is not something i am arguing. That is not why i think Hapa is town.

[outoforder]

when the thread sentiment turns against him d1, when hawk is active and helping, he goes silent running mode and ignores scumreads on him

What time period are you talking about specifically?

[outoforder]

As mafia, why would you want to be on a mislynch wagon? He never also says "no, do not lynch Hapa! He is town!".

If I were scum and wanted "towncred" from a mislynch, I'd most certainly say "no, don't lynch [townie], he is town." If Hap were a mislynch, I think Hawk would be gunning for towncred by calling him town, not saying "Hap could be scum" and then voting every single counterwagon that pops up.

The problem is if you want a mislynch you can't really do that. Keeping your options open is much better for securing a mislynch.

[outoforder]

Just tell me a date or post number.

[outoforder]

He isn't under any actual pressure there.

[outoforder]

I think scum is in (KidDamn / Hapa) / Kop / Aubrey / Hawk.

This is a post that super bothers me to be honest.
So here, in the final posts of his on D1 he thinks those people are mafia.
Hawk flips scum. Aubrey flips town during the night.

Suddenly he is completely lost when D2 beginds when actually he should easily deduce that Kop kinda has to be town and scum for him have to be Hapa and KidAmn (because he has literally stated strong townreads on everyone else - except for havingfitz, who he basically never talks about). EZ game EZ lyfe, we lycnhed scum, Hapa is scum and KidAmn is scum. That's what i would expect Rels to say, not to read everyone's filter and waffle around multiple scenarios (when earlier he kinda had the game "solved" in his mind).

[outoforder]

Anyways i am off for tonight. cya tomorrow.

[outoforder]

Actually my outoforder townread lessened a bit. If Hap flips scum, I want to look more closely there. His D1 was incredibly town but his arguments for Hap being town today have been a stretch. Who is your best guess for the third scum?

Mine? Idk. Rels or KidAmn.

I am going to now tell you something. There is absolutely no way there is 2 mafia in me/Hapa and Rels. You can choose to not believe me but that is 100% going to be the truth this game. I know i am not mafia and there is literally no way either of me and Rels would have treated Hapa early on in the game like we did in case he was mafia. Maybe you are right and Hapa is mafia, i just don't believe it.

If you're going to lynch him based on an association with Hawk (and me) then i might just aswell stop posting, because there is probably not a way to change your mind. I've said everything i have to say about that. I just don't believe you're right here on his alignment.

At least i am going to vote for mafia.
VOTE: havingfitz

[outoforder]

And i really don't care about the third scum right now because when we lynch havingfitz we can lynch both of the people who can possibly be mafia.

[outoforder]

Rels you're being super dumb if you believe i can be mafia this game and you are town. You should know that when i am amongst the most influential people in the game and being townread by other influential players (who basically were you, Aubrey and BlackVoid) there is absolutely no way the day 1 ends like it did. You suggesting that i am mafia is almost as dumb as you suggesting i am mafia in the lylo of RSM II when i lead a lynch on mafia on D1 when i could have basically lynched almost anyone i wanted.

Think about it a bit in case you're town.

[outoforder]

I am going to now tell you something. There is absolutely no way there is 2 mafia in me/Hapa and Rels. You can choose to not believe me but that is 100% going to be the truth this game. I know i am not mafia and

there is literally no way either of me and Rels would have treated Hapa early on in the game like we did in case he was mafia. Maybe you are right and Hapa is mafia, i just don't believe it.

can anyone see what i see

I don't know what you are seeing, but what i am saying is if Hapa somwhow flips mafia in this game Rels will probably yell to lynch me. I don't care much about that because you can easily afford a mislynch there. I am saying there is probably going to be a horde of dumbasses yelling to lynch Rels after that, but if Hapa flips mafia never ever lynch Rels.

[outoforder]

When are we gonna go achieve a lynch? Or is there a trick that we should wait for deadline lynches?

I don't understand why we should lynch in less than 14 days if we have 14 days.

[outoforder]

No, something like 8.
What i was trying to say is why lynch in for example 7 days if the dayphase lasts for 14 days?
more information = more accuracy.

[outoforder]

Hapahauli cannot possibly be mafia with anyone in this game except for maybe Creature and Cassielle and neither of those combinations make any sense to me. So there is that.
If you wanna lynch Hapa i'll put my own game in the line because i actually feel that strong about it right now. If you want to lynch Hapa the only player he really makes sense as mafia is me, so i propose that you lynch me instead of him.

Then you just don't get retarded and lynch

havingfitz

. Then you can still lynch both of

KidAmn and Rels.

And that's going to win the game. We can afford 2 mislynches.

I will help you with self-voting if that's the case.
I'd rather lynch mafia though.

[outoforder]

idk, one week is enough to start trying lynches.

It isn't recommended to start looking for lynches just when there are three days left.

Well idk how you guys usually work here but i work with the mindset of "more information = more accuracy". IML games are quite terrible for that tbh since usually people end up getting bored because they could lynch already and make rash decisions with limited amount of information (in comparison to what it could be). Therefore in my opinion reads and strong opinions matter way more than actual votes (early on), since it's really just dumb to lynch when you have like 2/3 of dayphase left. Even if you had a confirmed scum it's dumb because the more time town has the more likely town is winning the game. That is - if people don't be dumb and actually USE the time they have.

[outoforder]

Hapahauli cannot possibly be mafia with anyone in this game except for maybe Creature and Cassielle and neither of those combinations make any sense to me. So there is that.
If you wanna lynch Hapa i'll put my own game in the line because i actually feel that strong about it right now. If you want to lynch Hapa the only player he really makes sense as mafia is me, so i propose that you lynch me instead of him.

Then you just don't get retarded and lynch

havingfitz

. Then you can still lynch both of

KidAmn and Rels.

And that's going to win the game. We can afford 2 mislynches.

I will help you with self-voting if that's the case.
I'd rather lynch mafia though.

the problem with this is WIFOM

would scum say this to get the towncred of saying it? we dont/cant know

i mean i know you put effort into this post and all but all im thinking atm is "sure, lets do that" because that possible-bluff almost deserves calling
VOTE: outoforder

Do you believe me in case i flip town?

[outoforder]

Because you only vote me here for that in case you do.
Otherwise it's just retarded.

[outoforder]

i work with the mindset of "more information = more accuracy".

I work with time is money.

If nothing new is happening, may as well just end the day.

Of course. That would also be a case where all the town players are dumb and for some reason don't want anything to happen.

[outoforder]

I don't mean deadline panicvoting.
This D1 was not really deadline panicvoting since BlackVoid who was leading was acting very rationally.

If a day ends with ~2 hrs left that doesn't always mean "panicvoting".
You should try 48h day phases to know what panicvoting is.

[outoforder]

Well that's what i kinda believed you'd say.
But i don't really care. I care about if my reads are good or not. I think they are this game and i think i have solved the game to a point where i don't have to find the last mafia since i have PoE'd everyone else out of the equation. And i can't tell which one of KidAmn and Rels is scum atm. No rereading will do the magic for me here since i've read it all enough times.

[outoforder]

Day 1: A topic starts
Day 2: At this point there should have been something
Day 3: Topic will probably stall, but just bring something new
Day 4: We discuss that something new
Day 5: We push players
Day 6: We organize our reads
Day 7: We start pushing lynch wagons
Day 8: We flipflop around
Day 9: Day's discussion already done
Day 10: Good to lynch already
Day 11: Very good to lynch already
Day 12: If you're still there, better start worrying
Day 13: Speed up that wagon if you haven't already, otherwise things might get ugly
Day 14: You better have a good wagon because this is considered just an emergency day

I am pretty sure we did better than that this game.

[outoforder]

Also remember there is never going to be more than 1 mafia in the Hawk wagon.
Never ever never.

[outoforder]

By "intentionally tying himself to Hap," if you mean making Hap look guilty in case he, Hawk flips, I don't see why he would try to make a doomed townie look guilty just in case he somehow flips before that townie. Remember it looked like Hap was the lynch for the day, not Hawk until the last seven hours or so till deadline.

If you are saying he's trying to get towncred from a Hap townflip, I'd argue that he would actually call Hap town while pushing counterwagons. He wouldn't say he was very confident in a Hap scumflip while subtly laying down his votes elsewhere and working against the lynch.

This is also Hawk's first game as scum so I don't expect an insane level of manipulation.

idk if you're talking to me here but i don't really get what you're trying to say in this post. Or where are you referring to.
For the bolded / underlined part; I don't believe you here. Regardless of how many scumgames Hawk has we are talking about a dude who kinda made you (and definitely Aubrey) think he is town AFTER he was lynched. Even starting doing that requires a personality to perform quite cunning stunts... ^^

[outoforder]

You don't even need to reread anything to tell i am never mafia with Rels.

[outoforder]

I just offered myself being lynched over a townie so Rels can what??? "get towncredit"? (when me - Rels interaction caused the whole thing in the first place). I am sorry, smart mafia teams do not do that. Especially when it would leave 1 mafia alive which has a chance of instantly losing the game if you shoot the wrong person.. They just simply agree to lynch the townie.

[outoforder]

I mean, if that's how you make reads then you can always call anyone in the game mafia because you can always argue "that's why, so i would think that" when someone points out how your argument doesn't make any sense. Or just call everything else bussing because "then we whiteknighted a scum guy and they'll win in the end and that was the plan"....

[outoforder]

Oh i am sorry i misunderstood what whiteknighting means. What i meant is that you can always call someone being bussing because "it's beneficial as you gain so much town credit you basically never get lynched".

[outoforder]

[quote="In post 1710
[...]
I find it hard to imagine both Hawk's scum partners would have bussed him but the only players not on the Hawk lynch were me, Kop, Doom and KidAdm. I'm town. I have tr Doom (though momo is trying his best to change that) and KidAdm the entire game. Kop is iffy but he is heading towards replacement probably. Plus...as has been mentioned...Hawk probably doesn't try to shift a wagon onto a scum buddy just to save his own neck.

In regards to the end of D1...Hawk had three votes and momentum when he switched from Aubrey to Kop. I don't know if he really thought a Kop wagon had a chance (in which case voting a buddy would produce some nice Kop town cred) or if at that point in the game he was more interested in getting a no lynch. Which almost happened. I'm rambling. I think Kop is probably town but not a lock by any means.

I haven't had a chance to present my OoO suspicions due to lack of time but I started on this early this morning and I want to post what I have while I have the chance. I will present my OoO stuff NLT tomorrow.

Imagine you are town and you think you have solved the game and Hapahauli and OoO are scum. Now you have imagined that. Now think why havingfitz writes all this (before the bolded part) instead of what he says he'll do later in the bolded part? (hint: one of those two is important , one is not unless you wanna change your mind later for some reason).

[outoforder]

Why was Aubrey confirmed town?

[outoforder]

Come one it should be super easy to answer since he was confirmed town to you....

[outoforder]

He is right though in that Aubrey's nk doesn't implicate anyone.

[outoforder]

He's at L-3 with 3 votes.

[outoforder]

Except for that you have a game where everyone is 1-shot PGO (so scum basically can't do that) and BlackVoid was always the NK over Aubrey if this was a vanilla game.

[outoforder]

Well okay you are not totally wrong. If Aubrey's reads were complete trash he wouldn't have been night killed that's for sure.

[outoforder]

IT doesn't really surprise me you are not in favor of this....

[outoforder]

But see Cass, this is kind of what you said me and Rels are doing... It is PRETTY CLOSE to that tbh.

[outoforder]

IT doesn't really surprise me you are not in favor of this....

Yeah, I get it, you see all and know all, it's terribly amusing the first dozen or so times and all.

I know, it is annoying isn't it?

[outoforder]

Why was Aubrey confirmed town?

After Hawk flipped scum Aubrey was basically confirmed town. If you don't think so explain why. Right after you provide the case on me you haven't made yet (unless I've missed it).

Nonono. You dont get to do that.

Because you:
- suspected aubrey enough to vote for him
- have suggested literally that you believe both of Hawk's mafia partners bussed him

Therefore, why was aubrey confirmed town? Hawk's flip cant possibly make him confirmed town to you since aubrey would have the most reason to bus as mafia (as he was the counterwagon to hawk's initially).

[outoforder]

I'll get back to you later when off work BV.
Fitz is again showing characteristics of saying one thing but suddenly it doesnt apply anymore unless it fits his agenda.

[outoforder]

Alright, here we go BlackVoid. I am going to hope you read this.

First order of business; Why

havingfitz

is mafia:

(1) There are at least two occasions where he (conciously or unconciously) presents a mindset he is working under and then works against it:

First one is the wallpost thingy. I am trying to explain this once more. Here is what fitz did:
- complained about my wallpost because it was "boring"
- posted a wallpost himself, one that ends up in "i will post my reads later"

I'll put a disclaimer here; No post in itself is scummy. But when a person basically says "i don't think doing X is good town play", if they are town they then don't do X, right? It is very simple logic because everyone as town tries to do things that are HELPFUL to the town (unless they are tilted, or trolling for some reason - neither of fitz is). If we go to his mindset here we can conclude he thinks boring wallposts are not helpful to the town (which is certainly correct). The problem is that his own wallpost is "boring". It doesn't end up to any conclusions at all. Noone asked him to sum up what has happened in the game so far (which is btw something scum like to do - sum up what other people have done and post some useless questions (more on that later) to look like they are contributing, or helping). As i said before, that is a

literal definition of boring in mafia terms.

Go read the post and ask yourself, "what is he trying to do here"? There is no direction, no reads, no nothing. Again, "boring". So what we get here:

-> says he won't read posts that are "boring" (this must mean unhelpful, because nothing else makes sense in the context)
-> makes a post that is the most "boring" thing anyone can do in mafia
I really don't know how to put this into words more clearly. He does something he himself has claimed is unhelpful to town. Townies don't try to do things that are unhelpful to town. So that's where i was coming from when i said he does something he doesn't consider pro-town. I understand he cannot understand this - or the case to begin with himself since if he could, he wouldn't have done it in the first place. But this is something that 99% of the time makes people mafia.

The second instance is the "Aubrey was confirmed town after Hawk flip". To a player who has said (or "said" - i will explain this in a bit):
- "it's totally possible, even likely, that there is 2 mafia in Hawk wagon"
- "i scumread Aubrey on D1 enoguh to vote for him"
..Aubrey cannot be confirmed town, EVER, after Hawk flip (during the night). I am going to explain the first comment here (the second one should be clear and there is no arguing about it). Think about fitz' D2. The only lynches he is even considering here are me and Hapahauli. We were both on Aubrey wagon. That literally means he MUST THINK it's certainly possible or even likely there were 2 mafia on his wagon. No other option is even possible. This point is strengthened by the fact that when i claimed we should lynch me instead of Hapa, he was straight on board with it. Now he is trying to say something different but that's just nonsense. The fact is - if i was mafia Aubrey could very well be my scumbuddy because i hard defended him when he was wagoned. There is no reason (for him) to assume Aubrey is town because he was a counterwagon to Hawk because you, BV, pushed the lynch from Aubrey into Hawk very quickly. Why on earth havingfitz, who considered Aubrey scum, should assume you CANNOT POSSIBLY go from scumwagon -> scumwagon???? Why not? With the way Hawk was a wagon to begin with it should NEVER exclude Aubrey from being mafia to fitz if he thinks there can be 2 mafia in Hawk wagon. That also always makes him mafia. He is working against his own mindset, or like... presenting a narrative that only applies when it fits to his "view" of the game. He is making the same evidence fit differently into different people basically. I am goint to simplify this to you a bit:
- people wanna kill hapa; "everyone" is okay with it
- people wanna kill Aubrey; "everyone" is okay with it
- people wanna kill Hawk; "everyone" is okay with it
Now if you were to think "scum hard bussed (as i have pointed out fitz thinks)", what does differentiate Aubrey from let's say Hapa? It doesn't make any sense considering how the wagons happened and that's another reason why fitz is mafia.

(2) His scumread on me:

So far we have heard three reasons from fitz to scumread me. Those reasons are:
- I have not presented a case on him while calling him mafia
- I have not answered his questions
- I am being a dick to other people

The third reason never makes anyone mafia. It is true i am very annoying to deal with because when i think someone is being stupid i call it stupid (usually in a very annoying or sarcastic way). I am sorry i can't help myself. But being a dick never makes anyone mafia. That's a fact. If you wanna policy lynch someone for being a dick that's another thing but he is listing it as a reason for me being mafia, and that's never true.

The first reason is just simply untrue. I have presented the same case numerous of times and still, on D2 he calls me out for the same thing. Here is an example: "BlackVoid, you are mafia because your nick starts with letter B". Yes, that's a case. Regardless of how trash tier the case is it's a case. (At this point i should probably say i worded my case in the first place in the way i did because i wanted to get a better read on Rels too - well if you've read my posts today at at the very end of the phase you probably can figure out why). What i believe is that fitz just keeps on and on telling "make a case if you call me scum" because other people cannot see how the case is legit. And here i am "un-concising" that very fucking simple and concise case.... I cannot believe, if he was town, that he wouldn't either debunk the case, or go read my filter and ask me more about the case (or my suspicions on him). He just simply "counters" the whole thing with "you have not presented a case" which is simply untrue, and town players do not operate like that, ESPECIALLY when they think the person who made the case is mafia!!!!

The questions thing..... I might aswell quote my earlier post on this:

Spoiler: fitz' questions and answers

outoforder....is Ooo an acceptable reference to you?

No it is not an alt. I know hapahauli and Rels from another forum.

outoforder....is Ooo an acceptable reference to you?

Yes.

-----------

Is your RVS meta on hanapulali from this site or another one?

See the above answer. Now if you went to look at my post count on mafiascum and then look at the post where i gave my answer to the last question you would very clearly see that i have played zero games here. Then you put 1+1 together and your question is answered (before you even asked it...).
-----------

Are the 3 of you good at reading each other? Is there reason to assume any different dynamics between TLM and MS will affect your ability to read each other?

Hapahauli is basically playing below his level. He is not being as smart as he is supposed to be and his scumgame is wel.... quite bad.

[...]Now i didn't expect Rels to 100% pick this up, but IF he does pick this up, he is most likely going to be town in this game since

his scumgame (while being quite good)

, lacks "going into depths of posts", and it's impossible to emulate a townie trait like that as mafia since you are playing from a completely different mindset. [...]

@Outoforder, while you catch up, weigh in on Rels for me as well.

I cant tell if Rels is mafia on D1. My townread on him is genuine but i understand he could be scum. He thinks so alike i do i always end up on a townread on him on d1 (unless he does something completely retarded). I mean, my play is based on logic and if the logic ppl are using is making sense in any way or not. Rels probably knows my logic, so if he is scum he will also know what to tell me. I tried being super sneaky on him at the start of the game since he HAS made blunders on that before. But yeah, i prolly end up thinking he is town in 80% of the time regardless of his alignment because i am a sucker for logic.

This should be enough to tell fitz that yes, i think i am good at reading hapa and no, i don't think i am good at reading Rels at least on D1. Furthermore Rels said me and him have fooled each other early on in the game. So i consider this question answered from my part.
-----------

On that note...what do you mean when you say I am going to be a pain in the ass because I am not going to get anything you are saying?

[...]
So what i do conclude, regarding MooginSoosy (and to havingfitz too), is that if they are town they are probably going to be a pain in the ass to convince of anything i think is true because they will not be getting what i am saying. Or they are mafia, who just like to make people possibly annoyed so they can call them out for that later on. [...]

I can't possibly see how i can say this more clearly. Ironically this is probably the post the question is based on....
-----------

142 - @OoO...what does X being personality driven have to do with X being alignment indicative?

Nothing, i never said such thing. He is probably referring to this:

Because the point of RVS in the end is to start the game and do something to get out reads. So when people, after that X point (see more about this after the next quote) continue the game "without the X being there" it becomes, at least in my opinion, alignment - or at least personality - indicative.

Alignment idigative (for people i know) - Personality indicative (for people i don't know).
I never claimed one has to do something with the other.
-----------

So why did Moosin and I get your discredit?

Yeah, one would think why. Two questions based on the same thing (post) that already answered both of the questions...
-----------

143 - OoO...what did you establish from Aubrey's answer to your proofreading question?

I am getting a bit tired of this... If i (or anyone) don't follow up on a question it probably means they think the person gave a townie (or at least not scummy) response. This is like asking "why do you question your scumreads?".... Does anyone here think people should post literally every little thing that goes in their mind? If the question had been "i can see your question to Aubrey here. I don't understand why you made the question since it looks pointless to me. What did you expect him - as mafia - to answer? Because it also seems like the answer didn't provoke a scummy reaction from him." that would have been a good question, because it can actually achieve something.
-----------

169 - @OoO...At this point in the game why are you town reading Creature? Because at this point in the game he has made ~20 shit posts.

My read on Creature is based on that he doesn't really care about how people see him, and what people think of him. It looks like he's got the mindset of "fuck you i don't have to tell you anything i don't want to, here is just what i think. I will give you my reasoning when i please". I know a player who works the same way and still, when you read the posts you get a gist of where they are coming from. If you don't, they are probably mafia - which isn't the case here imo.

-----------

OoO...it looks like you have meta'd a few players to develop your reads on them. Have you on me?

No, i don't need to. Scummy stuff is scummy. I would have posted i have if i had, obviously.
-----------

340 - @OoO...why are you scum reading me? And if I am the scummiest player in the game to you...why aren't you voting me?

Alrighty.
[...]
I also have a town lean on Aubrey, for his psot #117 and the comment + vote on Havingfitz, since i share the same thought about his play. [...]

Basically everyone else is a complete non-entity. Except for Havingfitz who i have a slight scumlean on for reasons Aubrey outlined, and Hapahauli who i honestly think is mafia.
[...]

[...]
I don't care. I vote when i actually am fairly certain someone is scum. If people wanna paint it as hesitant scum then they do. ^^
[...]

At this point you are a scumlean. When i unvoted hapahauli you don't magically become super obvious mafia just because i think noone else is scummier than you. If you had (again) read my posts you would know when i do vote and when i don't.
-----------

380 - OoO...you tell Hawk that when you think someone is mafia you tell it and lay out your reasoning...where is your reasoning for having me as the scummiest player in the game?

See above *sigh*
-----------

Also...OoO....post 869 is terrible. What part of your "filter read" comments on me are actually alignment indicative?

Btw i still think havingfitz is scum. I went to reread his filter and what he basically did in his wall of text was this:\
- I don't like wall of texts -> writes a wall of text -> the conclusion he ends up in is "now let me continue and post my reads later".......

VOTE: havingfitz

It says that in the post you asked about.... Disagreeing with my read or calling it bullshit is one thing, but it's a whole other thing to ASK the dude basically "this thing you find scummy for me, do you think it's alignment indicative". I dont even... :p
-----------

can you remind me (or actually state for the first time) why it is you scum read me?

see above.
-----------

Deflecting a case on him based on nothing that was on the case != "here is why you are wrong". It is "i am discrediting you gor other atuff because i cant prove you are wrong".

What case? Remind me of your "case."

I quoted this whole post so everyone can see what i have said BEFORE he posted this.
Again, see above.
-----------

When people ask questions, they ask them to get a better read on someone. Now when you read the questions, think about how do these questions help havingfitz get a better read on me (or anyone)? I can somehow understand "are you three good/bad at reading each other", but everything else is just something to throw in trash, it cannot possibly ever achieve anything. Furthermore (and remember that i am his scumread here) he still cannot deduce these answers from my filter (they are actually very concise answers - one of two of them "not", but easily deduceable). So basically:
- he asked questions that do not actually mean anything to him
- he isn't reading his scumread's posts (like fucking ever lol)
Both of those things make him mafia. Asking useless questions, well you got the gist. And why the hell would you not read your scumread's post? You wanna FIND EVIDENCE to tell people why your scumread is scum. Not reading his posts (which can clearly be seen here) is not really going to help gathering evidence. So those two are the only conclusions i can come to, and as i said, it makes him mafia.

We haven't really heard his follow up on the case on me, which brings me to...

(3) Focusing on things that should not ever matter to him over other things:

Basically this is from D2. Go read his fitz' posts on D2 and tell me what he is trying to do? Nothing, he has literally advanced nowhere from where he was at the start of the phase. It's not even tunneling. It is just.. idk.. stalling everything? This post is a really really good example of it (in addition to some of his D1 posts - like THE WALL):

If you want to lynch Hapa the only player he really makes sense as mafia is me, so i propose that you lynch me instead of him.

Suspect pool -

hapa, OoO

, (tbd off the fence?)

Works for me! I'm good with either of your lynches.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++


OK BV...sorry for the delayed response. Three other games at more critical junctures and RL took priority.

I believe you asked me to elaborate on my Rels town read and my suspicions of OoO and hapa.

WRT Rels...my early catch up gave mention to an early townread on Rels (due to likeminded posting) and coincidentally I give my townread process to Rels in Post 523. This post also has my early thoughts towards hapa (and a few others). It's what I usually draw my early town reads from. Beyond D1 as the game progresses...my townreads are effected by other actions (ex. claims, flips, more posts to assess).

As for today...I have seen nothing to sway me from my tr on Rels. Plus he was willing to vote scum!Hawk. Likewise on hapa....he was also willing to vote scum!Hawk which is probably the main reason I have pause towards him being scum. While I was willing to give him a pass on the meta case brought up against him by Rels and OoO I still do not like his awkward agreement with Aubrey's early scum read on me. It felt like he was taking lazy advantage of weak suspicions thrown my way. I don't recall why Aubrey spent much of day on hapa but it makes my suspicions feel more valid with Aubrey suspecting hapa. I also do not like the fact hapa has abandoned this game but I don't think that is necessarily AI so I won't hold that against him. But I do not like it. I just hate voting dead slots. I will....but I don't like to. Otherwise the only voting that hapa did D1 that I have issue with were his stance on KidAdm and his time on my wagon. He hasn't posted D2 so nothing new to judge him on.

I find it hard to imagine both Hawk's scum partners would have bussed him but the only players not on the Hawk lynch were me, Kop, Doom and KidAdm. I'm town. I have tr Doom (though momo is trying his best to change that) and KidAdm the entire game. Kop is iffy but he is heading towards replacement probably. Plus...as has been mentioned...Hawk probably doesn't try to shift a wagon onto a scum buddy just to save his own neck.

In regards to the end of D1...Hawk had three votes and momentum when he switched from Aubrey to Kop. I don't know if he really thought a Kop wagon had a chance (in which case voting a buddy would produce some nice Kop town cred) or if at that point in the game he was more interested in getting a no lynch. Which almost happened. I'm rambling. I think Kop is probably town but not a lock by any means.

I haven't had a chance to present my OoO suspicions due to lack of time but I started on this early this morning and I want to post what I have while I have the chance. I will present my OoO stuff NLT tomorrow.

Now assume you're fitz and you're town. You directly claim you are thinking Hapahauli and me are mafia (which he did before). Here:

Town - Blackvoid, Rels....probably Kop. Probably momo (based on Doom...not momo).
Fence - Creature, Cassie, KidAdm
Suspect pool - hapa, OoO, (tbd off the fence?)

Why don't you try to make a case and push your scum suspect instead of talking about some other people? I know he is saying he is "on the fence" with some other people but the post literally starts with "i am okay with lynching EITHER you or hapa" so on the fence "argument" sounds really fucking fishy. If you are town and not actually sure, well first of all you say that, second you either try to pressure (me and/or hapa) or make a case on either of us. You never ever - as town - jsut say "i am okay whichever of you two flips" if you ACTUALLY are on the fence with other people (because that in itself suggests you think you can be wrong on one of me and hapa). It is a clear contradiction and fail in logic and it also makes him mafia.

There you go, that's so fucking clear i can ever be.
Now lynch the scummer please.

My other reads in the next post but this took 2 hours so i am not sure if i wanna do that today anymore. At least i need a couple of beer.

[outoforder]

EBWOP:

We were both on Aubrey wagon. That literally means he MUST THINK it's certainly possible or even likely there were 2 mafia on his wagon.

On Hawk wagon i mean.

[outoforder]

Hello?

Is there anybody in there?
Just nod if you can hear me.
Is there anyone home?
Come on now
I hear you're feeling down.
Well I can ease your pain
Get you on your feet again.
Relax.
I'll need some information first.
Just the basic facts.

[outoforder]

So havingiftz basically responded to my case with "i have been making posts which can.mean this or that depending on the situation".

Scummyscumscum lymch

[outoforder]

You suspect them cause they are voting you and have a cold foul mouth at times?

Voting me and having a foul mouth aren't automaticreasons for suspicion.

I'm not presenting a case on OoO. I'm complaining about the fact he's ignored my questions...made no case on me I can see and is discrediting other players.

Which when laid out like that is stuff I find suspect

in varying degrees. Zzzzzz
Out...

So here. I didnt lie. You literally said you find this kind of behaviour suspicioys in this occasion.

He's prolly gonna go the "but i could also mean the other thing" route again.

[outoforder]

Hapa. Why have you been posting elsewhere instead of this game?

[outoforder]

Omfg.... now i really hope i am wrong here..
That was so fucking retarded.

[outoforder]

Ah he was scum.
Now i am lost.

[outoforder]

Should have trusted the you-never-do-this-read at the atart of the game.

[outoforder]

OoO, Rels, BV, I like all of them for town.

Yeah rels is always town.

[outoforder]

Yeah doom/momo can be mafia.

I never bus. There is no way Hawk gets lynched D1 if i am scum here. You can be sure of that.

[outoforder]

Basically if i am mafia with hapa i never do not agree with aubrey lynch AND not push Kop over Hawk (with him). Thats where Rels goes wrong. Same applies to him which is why i said there is never 2 mafia in us 3.

He's prolly gonna tunnel me but i dont care too much. We will win anyways even if i get lynched.

Rels is right in though that i can be pushing stuff as mafia and i usually do.

[outoforder]

I have to double check if fitz can be mafia with hapa. I dont remember, but my gut says no for some reason.

BV youre right. I would still have pushed Kop over him (hapa was around the time i was here too if i remember correctly). And i would have found reasons to hop on aubrey (remember hapa was the counter wagon there).

Anyways, it doesnt matter. If thats your argument then i cant say nothing more to it. Youre underestimating my scumplay if you think thats the case though. ^^

[outoforder]

Well. I wont defend myself the next day and there is no need to make a case. I have said everything i have to say regarding that and i wont waste my time on it.

BV just tell Rels and creature to give me 48h to figure out the last mafia. If they then want to lynch me they can do it. Rels is gonna have a hard time after that (when me and creature have flipped) unless momo is mafia.

[outoforder]

I don't think I'm underestimating you. I came into the game reading you as obvtown. The Aubrey wagon had a lot more momentum than the Hap wagon at that point so it makes more sense to just let town lynch Aubrey while fishing for cred. You had Hawk as your third scumread and Kop as your second. I think it would be a hard sell to get everyone on Kop in 10 minutes while you had Hawk as a scumread.

With me and hapa its suddenly Kop L-1 and Hawk L-2 and noone was really townreading kop.

What do you think cassielle for example will do there?

[outoforder]

I don't think I'm underestimating you. I came into the game reading you as obvtown. The Aubrey wagon had a lot more momentum than the Hap wagon at that point so it makes more sense to just let town lynch Aubrey while fishing for cred. You had Hawk as your third scumread and Kop as your second. I think it would be a hard sell to get everyone on Kop in 10 minutes while you had Hawk as a scumread.

You know what is funny in your read regaeding me and this situation?

I am telling you that this is not what the game would look like if i was mafia and mafia is losing super hard here.

So yeah, you kinda are underestimating my scumgame..^^

[outoforder]

Haven't found any of his games.

I havent played any games here.
Ivr played lile 130 games elsewhere though.

[outoforder]

Teamliquid and Vendetta Strada. And some eandom gamea on some other random forums.

I go under the nick raynpelikoneet on TL.
There is a mafia database on the mafia forum where you can see everyone's games. Rels posted a öink to the database on D1.

[outoforder]

You're dumb Rels. After this game at least never try to claim you can read me. ^^

[outoforder]

BV please later on when you join another game pm me. It's been a pleasure playing with you.

[outoforder]

I must say i find it weird havingfitz treats me and hapa very differently when we both call him out for the same post of his.

[outoforder]

You're dumb Rels. After this game at least never try to claim you can read me. ^^

Cause you didn't make 20 posts this game calling me scum right

That's very reasonable in case i am still right and havingfitz is mafia.

[outoforder]

Please give me until tomorrow night to write my post and then you can do whatever you want.
I did 16h days during weekend so i pretty tired tonight and have to be back at work in 2 hrs.
I already know what i want to say, i just don't have the time to do it rn.

[outoforder]

I'll say a couple of things though rn. I'll expand to this later if needed.

How likely it is Hawk - when entering the game - makes a case on their scumbuddy? That's the only thing stopping me from scumreading him. I wanna look at that more closely, namely how the whole thing went down in the first place, but that seems a bit weird thing to do as if it is mafia - mafia interaction.

Another thing is what cassielle said amongst her last posts about havingfitz. I actaully looked at his hapa vote and case during the weekend and it's a super bs thing to say he is town because of his case on hapa. Just look at the way and the time he retracted from his vote. Furthermore if that somehow (in her mind) makes fitz town - surprise motherfucker!! I was literally the first one to make a case on Hapa. Me and him both did the same thing and retracted from the votes on Hapa - hell even around the same time. Furthermore i had ACTUAL reasons to do that (as i have explained), he didn't (well "V/LA so "unvote for now" isn't really a reason especially since he never revisited the case after).

Yeah, i had a bad read on Hapa on D2. I was bad. I know where i went wrong and i kinda hate myself for not realizing that earlier. But it's still - and again - pretty bs to call me mafia for my D2 read on Hapa because i never had any chance to interact with him. Just when i started, he got hammered. This is a perfect example why you DON'T lynch like that.

That was a retarded night kill, havingfitz is still mafia. I have honestly never seen a player being incapable of presenting a case on ANYONE (hapa included here) after the start of the game for like fucking 4 weeks. It's not like the dude is super inactive, he just spins stuff around and focuses onto something that's not important. Like that's a super fucking easy read and his case on Hapa doesn't make him town since he never actually pushed the lynch and never even revisited the case after unvoting based on nothing. Simple.

[outoforder]

How likely it is Hawk - when entering the game - makes a case on their scumbuddy? That's the only thing stopping me from scumreading him. I wanna look at that more closely, namely how the whole thing went down in the first place, but that seems a bit weird thing to do as if it is mafia - mafia interaction.

This is regarding doom/momo slot here.

[outoforder]

Dat retarded night kill though.

[outoforder]

Idk, doom looked really level-headed and not scummy at all.
It's going to be fitz. There are no reasons to townread him, ever, in this game. I am gonna call you all bad if it's fitz. I accept being called bad if it's not.

I just dont see anyone else being mafia, espectially after that dumbass NK.

[outoforder]

[...]

OoO Point 2

2) This is a misrep...I do not believe I have laid out why I suspect you. And

if I inferred reasons somewhere they certainly did not include suspecting you because you're a dick. That's NAI. You say I list that as a reason for you being mafia....

show me where I say that.

You are LYING once again.[/b]

[...]

You suspect them cause they are voting you and have a cold foul mouth at times?

Voting me and having a foul mouth aren't automaticreasons for suspicion.

I'm not presenting a case on OoO. I'm complaining about the fact

he's ignored my questions

...

made no case on me

I can see and

is discrediting other players

.

Which when laid out like that is stuff I find suspect in varying degrees.

Zzzzzz
Out...

Lynch liar mafia scum.

[outoforder]

It's soon tuesday fitz. We've been waiting for your case you promised for monday. Actually i've been waiting for it for like a month because apparently your reasons you said you suspected me were not actually reasons you suspected me for.

[outoforder]

It's probably momo not paying attention at all.

Not really. If it's fitz he just needs me + momo lynches and suddenly he is in lylo with Cassielle and KidAmn. BlackVoid hard townreads him for some weird reasons, same does Cassielle. That's an endgame i would take as mafia, probably his best shot. Maybe he thought people have wifomed and didn't arm up on N1 (for the record i was a little sad when i saw Aubrey flip without a mafia flip since it's always correct play for EVERY townie to arm up on N1 and not wifom it in case there is a mafia lynch - apparently people didn't really think about these setup stuffz.. You gain a mislynch regardless of if mafia shoots someone or doesn't on N1).

[outoforder]

momo, i have two questions for you:
Who would you have shot if you were mafia?
Why do you think mafia shot Kop?

[outoforder]

He didnt really bus. That was not a hard bus. Look at the votecounts and the time/reason he unvoted. Je also never gor back to the case.

I mean if you say he bussed hapa on d1 then i did too definitely lol.

[outoforder]

Because its like 1.5 weeks left in the phase and wwe arent gonna lynch anyways at that time. Then he still vptes aubrey which he later om calls "derailing hapa wagon".

[outoforder]

Fitz unvotes feb 25yh sat. Thats almost a week left in the phase.

[outoforder]

What i am saying is later when you vote for aubrey thats okay for him. He even follows the vote. When you vote for hawk he suddenly calls you derailing the hapa wagon into aubrey + hawk. Why werent you derailing already when you voted for aubrey?

Even i fucking unvoted hapa later than fitz did... just ftr.

[outoforder]

Did he townread rels? If he did then it doesnt matter since he just gives himself away if he suddenly votes for his townread, right?

Look i am not saying that is something that makes him mafia. I am saying it doesnt make him town since i can also see a possible mafia motivation in that.

[outoforder]

Rels is always town. No way he is mafia with Hapa.
I am trying to ask something from momom which would give me a better read on him. Doom looked town to me.

[outoforder]

I believe Rels never shoots Kop here and he has consistently scumreading Hapa and ACTUALLY pushed his lynch. I have my theory on why Kop was killed and Rels doesnt fit there as mafia.

[outoforder]

I am gonna look at those posts in context when i get off work. Posting on phone is already pain in the ass. I also wanna confirm something because i am 90% sure there is a post where fitz showed some doubt on Hapa lynch after unvoting. I am gonna find that too.

BV can you be around ~ 7:30 am cest?

[outoforder]

Good. Lets talk then more. I will be around all my night but i am working a double shift unexpectedly and i have like 5min free 5 min work so i cant really focus on reading properly.

[outoforder]

Actually i am prolly home 9:30pm pst so one hour earlier.

[outoforder]

Without inspecting further at this point i agree with Cass here. I did the same thing. What gave me a pause was that everyone basically called Hapa scum and noone else was being pushed. Thats usually an indication of the lynch target being town. Unless it can be clearly seen Hapa was doom's top scumread i dont think that means much.

[outoforder]

As inferred earlier....I could get behind a Creature wagon. I suspect he and hapa independently of each other but the bussing theory isn't bad. I'm mostly on hapa as it looks to have better traction. If I had to choose I think hapa would be better to keep around as he would be more productive if town or more likely to give reason to suspect if scum.

Not interested in the Kop or KidAmn wagons.
A KidAmn vote somewhere would be nice.
More Moogin would be nice.

why do you think that hapa is more likely to contribute or self-incriminate?

creature is amazing at scumhunting d2 onward as town -- id sheep town!Creature d2 unquestioningly in fact, and i just dont do that
so why do you think hapa is the better choice here?

i know why /i/ do and that is irrelevant, i want to know why you do

Based on what I have seen so far in this game. hapa actually appears to be making an effort with his posts wrt convincing others of his opinion (for what they are worth). And posting more content if he is scum (as I suspect) will eventually catch up to him. Creature based on what I have seen is all over the place and doesn't interact well with others (ex. question responses). I see effort from hapa but not Creature.

And as far as Creature's D2+ prowess is concerned...my limited experience with him is town!him mislynching town!me for a scum win. We have another game where he was town and I was scum but I don't recall his play there.

I have no experience iirc with hapa

UNVOTE: while v/LA

I feel 5 or 6 pages behind just from this morning and I see hapa posted a shitload. I want to catch up and not leave my vote on him on the weekend so I can catch up on his content and others.

I dug this up either way.
Here. It even started before unvoting. I found something else too. I will follow it up when i get home.

[outoforder]

Tbh i haven't focused much on fitz' "latest" content. This would be around when he started calling me mafia. That's because at that time i was fairly certain he is scum for what i have outlined before. On important game happenings i rely mostly on my memory, and yes, my memory doesn't usually let me down, like here. I already talked about his posts 623 and 625 a couple of posts ago. There is also one interesting thing in post 625. This sentence:

"And (hapa) posting more content if he is scum (as I suspect) will eventually catch up to him."

Now this here basically proves that either:
- Fitz doesn't have a strong scumread on Hapa (possible mafia motivation -> not hard bussing)
- If Fitz says this and has a strong scumread on hapa, he must be mafia, based on the fact that if you are quite certain someone is scum, you don't want "more content" from them, you just lynch the shit out of them. That is what townies do

Moving further. This is what happens next.
In post 908 Fitz claims the following:
A townread on Rels, and that he has had the townread earlier on (which again kinda debunks the "if he is scum he would have voted for Rels" theory) since he cannot possibly just change his mind (there was really no case on Rels, i don't even remember why there were people voting for him lol) there. Because it would give him away if he is mafia if there is Hapa flip at some point. At this point his read list says the following:

Town leans: Doom, Hawk, BlackVoid, KidAdm + Rels and Kop (though I think an ISO is in order for them.)
TBD: Aubrey
Suspects: Creature, hapa, cassie, OoO.

Now there are a couple of things to note. First there are 4 scumreads in a game where there is 3 mafia. This in itself isn't suspicious, but the fact that after this he never goes anywhere in figuring out where he is wrong (he has to be wrong on at least one person here), except for.... In post 1146 he goes (when you have made a case on Aubrey) like... i don't even know. Look at the post. Aubrey is his null read but he is okay with lynching Aubrey (when he has already 4!!!! other scumreads) and look at reasoning. "I don't really have a scumread on Aubrey but i haven't considered him a possible wagon BECAUSE (whatever reasons)...." Why would you consider someone a lynch wagon if you don't have a scumread on them?!?!? As town you don't lynch null reads, ESPECIALLY when your scum jar is already overflowing (and Hapa IS a viable wagon here). That doesn't make any sense to me. The whole thing, how fitz landed on Aubrey doesn't make any sense regardless of whatever Hapa's alignment is/was/would have been. Even if Hapa had been town this is super inconsistent.

Then the wagon on Hawk happens. And post 1280 comes up. Read the post, very carefully. Here is what i gather:
- After unvoting Hapa:
- 4 scumreads, happy to vote for them all except for Cass for very unknown reasons
- Apparently not happy to revote Hapa who is suspicious
- Happy to vote for Aubrey (who isn't even a scumread) basically because "Aubrey can be actually lynched"
- Not happy to vote for Hawk (doesn't even comment on the case on him, which is what a townie SHOULD do in case they think they are right on their read). Instead of debunking the case or presenting reasons why he even thinks Hawk is town he discredits the dude who made the case because they are "derailing". Which also doesn't make much sense (i mean like, i felt like he was angry(?) for some reason), but see this - In post 1146 he is perfectly happy with discussing lynches when there is not much time left. Here:

We essentially have this entire day (EST at least) to vote and I'm not sure a move to someone else is doable. And the other alternatives are all players I'm not interested in lynching today (Rels.............KidAdm/Kop).

Here considering other wagons is perfectly fine. Suddenly when it's Hawk, it's not fine anymore. Note: I am not saying he isn't being logical as he townread Hawk, i am saying he isn't being logical because he SHOULD have treated the Aubrey wagon the same way he treated the Hawk one since in his mind he should have at least 3 other scumreads (where Hapa is a viable wagon FOR CERTAIN).
- Ends up voting Kop!!!! He is townreading Kop ffs. Here's what he says:

Really annoyed at Kop's lat post and he has garnered a fair amount of suspicion....

"I got annoyed" != "he is mafia", the other reason is "he can be lynched".

So basically, Fitz was, on D1 willing to lynch a

null read

and a

townread

who have both flipped town basically because they "could be lynched", not willing to lynch a

townread

and at least in my opinion veeeery hesitant to lynch or even try to re-wagon a

scumread

who could also be lynched, both of who have flipped mafia. Go figure.

That's my re-read on Fitz D1. On D2 he didn't do shit. He just delayed delayed delayed and is still delaying. His reads are static which doesn't make much sense since when your townread flips mafia you MUST at least CONSIDER you could be wrong on something, because that's what townies do. And please noone give me the bs "well you didn't reconsider either since you're still calling fitz mafia" because yes i fucking did, here is the post after reconsideration. He has shown none, he's had days.

And this, aside from my earlier case (which he btw again fails to admit exists even after having answered it roflmao) is why i think he is mafia.

Now what did you want to ask / discuss BV?

[outoforder]

Yeah i am here when you are back.

[outoforder]

Like ugh... i read my own post and i don't really know how to be concise.
Summed up from Fitz' D1; If someone has 4 scumreads, doesn't do anything about it like fucking ever (doesn't try to solve the game further) and in the end is okay with 5th and 6th person lynched it just screaams red in my head.

[outoforder]

And yeah Rels is town for two simple reasons:
- Pushing mafia!Hapa throughout all game
- Kop NK

I can elaborate more on the NK after i have heard back from momo if needed. Rels should btw know i am town at this point. ^^

That's a concise read you can trust on. If i am town i am 99% sure of it and even if i was mafia that would be the truth.

[outoforder]

Knowing Hapa flip, if Rels was mafia he would have taken the Fitz route at last on D2. (that's where i btw went wrong on hapa on D1 - he probably would have too in case he was town, since i tend to have a good D1 - the worst case scenario for mafia!hapa is that i am more of a suspect after, he can just say he sheeped me and there is no downside for him. I was a fucking dumbass to not realize that's what he SHOULD have done as town and instead blamed Rels for the same thing).

I will say one thing though, i have huge problems in games where the scumteam plays in a way i consider to be terrible scumplay. I think about strategy, i think about strategy what i would think would be good and i normally work with that. D1's are where i am good at. And LYLO's. Because in LYLO's there is no more bullshit, no more bussing, just plain logic. I focused on too much fucking shit early on in this game which made me incapable of sticking with the early good read on Hapa. Well the 5 day vacation didn't help much either, but yeah... there is that.

I literally don't think anyone can be mafia except for fitz. If he would flip town i am completely lost. If i had to do something after that, i would lynch (in this order):
momo - creature - rels - BV - cassielle/KidAmn

[outoforder]

EBWOP:

Knowing Hapa flip, if Rels was mafia he would have taken the Fitz route at last on D2. (that's where i btw went wrong on hapa on D1 - he probably would have too in case he was town, since i tend to have a good D1 - the worst case scenario for mafia!hapa is that i am more of a suspect after, he can just say he sheeped me and there is no downside for him. I was a fucking dumbass to not realize that's what he SHOULD have done as town and instead blamed Rels for the same thing).

this is assuming fitz was town.

[outoforder]

It's been 50 minutes.

[outoforder]

I don't know, for the last paragraph. When something i consider dumb scumplay happens (here Hapa flip), i throw all association out of the window if there is ANY chance it's not legit town vs scum (see for example KidAmn vs Hapa on D1 which i consider 100% legit Town vs Mafia).

For this:

I don't get why he would do this if it was meta on a buddy. He'd be giving you and Rels cred for the Hap flip when he could have taken it for himself.

I believe he - as mafia - didn't have an intention to lynch, BUT if the lynch occurs (if me and Rels keep on pushing that) he can at least not look bad. I mean look at the situation now, people are calling him town for making a case on Hapa and "pushing it". If he is mafia he has already achieved what was the best he can get (assuming he assumes Hapa is a legit lynch on D1 if me and Rels continue pushing it at the time he voted).

[outoforder]

Cassielle is where she is because i find it impossible she will yell all the worlds they are idiots and mafia because they lynched Hawk AFTER Hawk already was lynched. Like... That is so unreal.... That never comes from another mafia rofl.

[outoforder]

I don't get why he would do this if it was meta on a buddy. He'd be giving you and Rels cred for the Hap flip when he could have taken it for himself.

Further on this; If hapa flip happened on D1 at the time fitz made his case on him, me and rels would already be getting all the cred.

[outoforder]

I mean like he cannot take the cred anyways 100%.

[outoforder]

Why creature? I don't know why Creature should be above Rels and you. Like i just explained why i am very very sure Rels is town and you lead a lynch on mafia on D1 (and basically on D2 too with some help).

[outoforder]

If Cass thought she'd get towncred, of course she'd say it so that everyone thinks "Cass really didn't know that Hawk was mafia, she must be town!"

How is that single, potentially fake-able reaction more town than Creature pushing Hap and Hawk all of D1?

I really don't think Creature has pushed anything (sorry man). I mean i don't see much reasoning from him. I can follow him which makes him town imo, and yeah he's been right, but still there is not much reasoning. Being wrong doesn't make anyone mafia by itself. So like.... Defending mafia or wanting to lynch town is not something i consider scummy by default.

I don't think that's something you fake as scum (Cass), sure you could if you'd played like 100 games but i consider Cass fairly new based on her play. New(ish) players just don't do that, unless she is some mafia god from the beginning which i don't see either (this is not an insult Cass btw, that is to say i do not think you are amongst the top tier players i have seen play this game ).

[outoforder]

So you actually think there is a possibility i 100% endgamed myself as mafia by shooting Kop?
Well, that's funny for sure. I mean even if people super townread me for the nightkill i would never make as mafia there is no way i ever win lylo against anyone (not to mention now my lylo looks like there would be 1 of you/creature/rels alive if i was mafia). ^^

That's why i was calling the NK retarded, shoot a suspect and Rels should know i am town (which makes Rels 100% never mafia - he'd not do the kill because he would have to always argue i am town). Like he can be butthurt and call me mafia here now, but he should - as level-headed - know i am not mafia with that NK because i'd rather take a risk of shooting you (especially since i wouldnt have shot you on N1 if i was scum) than playing around lylo with a strong "confirmed" townie. Always. 100%. I can guarantee you that.

[outoforder]

Creature isn't a player who will hard-push lynches and make elaborate cases. His "pushes" on Hap and Hawk D1 are the extent I'd expect him to push. He also has good intuition as town and from a couple of scumgames I've skimmed, is reluctant to bus as scum. He stayed pretty firm in his Hap and Hawk suspicions throughout D1, voted Hawk when he had the option to vote Kop, and took a strong stance on voting Hap over Fitz D2.

Fair enough. I don't know his play though from beforehand so can you understand my pov?

[outoforder]

And please don't get me wrong. I am very very sure Creature is town. That is just IF i had to make a list.
Like i am almost sure momo is town so that makes Creature like 150% town i guess? :p

I am at a point where i don't consider anyone a possibility other than fitz. Maybe maybe maybe momo, but idk ugh since i read doomfeathers town. If you think Cassielle is mafia idk, you are not convincing me atm. Right now this is the same as me <-> you Aubrey talk. I am sorry i can't lay it out better but i just think she is town for the reasons i have outlined, the play just doesn't make sense as scum. I mean you could prolly get like a shitton of inconsistencies in her filter but i just think the town!reasons will always outweigh whatever there is.

[outoforder]

I don't wifom NK's. When i am mafia i have a strategy and i follow it (even if in this game it causes me to lose it).
If i am mafia here my endgame is Kop/KidAmn/Cassielle mylo/lylo. And lynch Kop most likely.

What does it matter if i get lynched before or after Kop? Even with momo? town has 2 mislynches. they can lynch all me/Kop/momo in whatever order.
+ that gives another 2-3 weeks for you, Rels and Creature (at least 2 of them alive) to solve the game. Like dude, i am not dumb, If i was mafia, i would have avoided hitting you N1 because i would think you'd arm up. If that is the case i would 100% take the risk to shoot you on N2 considering the state the game is at. I... do... not... wifom the nk's... ^^ If i lose then i lose, but "my strategy with hitting Kop" 100% loses me the game every time.

[outoforder]

Idk.. Maybe he thought you wifomed N1 and didn't arm? You suspect Cass right? Kop voted for Fitz before hammering. Kop hammered and looked really town after that (regardless of what you said).

I really don't know. It's a dumb shot. I already talked about how fitz still has endgame with shooting Kop.

[outoforder]

What does it matter if i get lynched before or after Kop?

I was probably unclear. What I was saying was: if anybody else was mafia, Kop would have been one of their mislynches on the road to a win. You were the only person to whom this didn't apply because there's more than a decent chance you get lynched before Kop and the game ends. So, you'd have to make a kill that changes the gamestate and makes everyone rethink all their reads. A Kop kill does that.

This is not true.

[outoforder]

How can you even say that when you supect Cassielle????!?!?!?

[outoforder]

It's probably momo not paying attention at all.

Not really. If it's fitz he just needs me + momo lynches and suddenly he is in lylo with Cassielle and KidAmn. BlackVoid hard townreads him for some weird reasons, same does Cassielle. That's an endgame i would take as mafia, probably his best shot. Maybe he thought people have wifomed and didn't arm up on N1 (for the record i was a little sad when i saw Aubrey flip without a mafia flip since it's always correct play for EVERY townie to arm up on N1 and not wifom it in case there is a mafia lynch - apparently people didn't really think about these setup stuffz.. You gain a mislynch regardless of if mafia shoots someone or doesn't on N1).

[outoforder]

If that is the case i would 100% take the risk to shoot you on N2 considering the state the game is at.

I was the only person even listening to you though. If you shoot me, nothing changes. Rels would lead the lynch on you and Fitz would happily join in. You've already alienated Cass and KidAmn so they'd be unlikely to stick their necks out to save you and one of the lurkers would finish the job. Killing me N2 pretty much assures you'll get lynched D3.

No, if i am mafia i cannot be reasonable and you possibly wont listen because you're a good player.
I do not take risks like that.

If i am mafia and i shot Aubrey N1 that is because i feared you are arming up and i crossed my fingers he wasnt. If i did that and my scumteam is fucking broken and lynched on N2 i always shoot you. Alllllll-fucking-ways.

Look i don't even care if you lynch me, so i don't really wanna argue about this since i am not the one to convince you if you have came to a conclusion that Kop kill makes me mafia. I said what i wanted to say, if you wanna lycnh me you can do so but please do not try to convince me i am mafia.

[outoforder]

How can you even say that when you supect Cassielle????!?!?!?

I'm not sure I follow. What does my suspicion of Cass have to do with anything?

Fitz doesn't need you dead.

[outoforder]

If/when me+momo flips there are still enough suspects for him to LYLO.

[outoforder]

How the fuck have i "alienated Cass and KidAmn"??
Cass voted WITH me on D2. KidAmn has just expressed his interest in lynching fitz...
How?

[outoforder]

And i literally dont care about if people listen to me or not. I have been lynched maybe 8 or 9 times as town. 4 of them have been when i have ONLY called scum out the whole fucking game. Yeah it makes me very mafia always..... 2 of the games i was legit terrible and probably deserved to get lynched. One of the games i made a plan that i laid out to the host after getting lynched (for it), i figured the game out on N1 based on the setup.... One of them was when i afk'd for 24 hrs and everyone called me mafia and then i made a post where i called out 5/5 mafia and 1/1 SK (and one townie ) but hey rayn must be lynched because afk no matter what he posted... After that game... You might wanna wonder why i don't really care anymore.

/end rant

[outoforder]

Regarding Cass and KidAmn, both claimed that you were using personal attacks towards the beginning of D2. I'll have to continue my read of D2 to see what happened later but bottomline is I think you'd rather have me alive than either of them.

If i am mafia i am never shooting either of them in this game on N2 over any of you/Rels/Creature. Never ever. If Rels doesn't agree to this he is fucking scum.

[outoforder]

One thing more though BV (unless you wanna ask me about something else still, i think i need to sleep in about 1-2 hrs) and everyone. If there is ever a LYLO between EVEN one of BV/Rels/Creature alive, ALWAYS lynch them, ALWAYSSSSSS!!! All of those people are good enough to solve the game BEFORE lylo and should do so. 100% of the time. If i am in that lylo you can lynch me no questions asked because if that's the case i have failed and town deserves to lose.

Remember this post please, especially Cass and KidAmn!!

[outoforder]

Yeah OOO is 99% scum. Nobody else makes this kill.
I wanna reread the game before committing to that though

fuck you. then lynch me, i will 1v1 and make sure you're lynched the day after you idiot.
you cannot fucking think like that.

Explain, why do i make the kill?

[outoforder]

I LITERALLY WANT YOU TO EXPLAIN WHY YOU THINK I MAKE THE KILL RELS. BEFORE ANYONE FLIPS.
Now, go! You have just awaken the beast.

[outoforder]

Yeah OOO is 99% scum. Nobody else makes this kill.
I wanna reread the game before committing to that though

fuck you. then lynch me, i will 1v1 and make sure you're lynched the day after you idiot.
you cannot fucking think like that.

Explain, why do i make the kill?

Cause you're in a bad spot and that's the only way to victory. Conventional kill always gets you lynched with 3 lynches available. And bad night kills very often comes from scum that are in a bad spot.

Explain "Conventional kill always gets you lynched with 3 lynches available"?
Explain why you are not mafia with "bad night kills very often comes from scum that are in a bad spot"?

[outoforder]

because 2 mafia have died. if you're mafia you're just as in a bad spot than i am if i am mafia.

[outoforder]

Why do i shoot a mislynch?
Also; explain "Conventional kill always gets you lynched with 3 lynches available"?

[outoforder]

lol you don't make sense bro.
Why didn't you see that Hapa was super scummy D2 ? What was that thing he did that he never does as scum that you mentionned somewhere ?

Because i didn't have time and i was fucking bad to think he would be town for being someone all the players wanted to lynch.
I am terrible in games with retarded scumteams. Sorry for that.

[outoforder]

Why do i shoot a mislynch?
Also; explain "Conventional kill always gets you lynched with 3 lynches available"?

It means what it means. With the reads everyone had at the end of D2, especially from BV who's thread leader, you were the most likely lynch just talking about D3; very very small chance you survive the whole game.

this doesnt make any sense to me.

[outoforder]

and "why do I shoot a mislynch ?" is a bad question. Since it can be applied to everyone left alive. And one person in that group is scum. So it doesn't work.

NO IT CAN'T!!!!

[outoforder]

wait what? lmk. i dont remember anything like that.

[outoforder]

and "why do I shoot a mislynch ?" is a bad question. Since it can be applied to everyone left alive. And one person in that group is scum. So it doesn't work.

NO IT CAN'T!!!!

Why ? Why can't it be applied to everyone left alive ?

because if i am lynched you have fitz/momo/(Kop) here.
Cassielle is suspected by BV. If we add her there then wow... there are plenty of lynches.

[outoforder]

Can you jsut fucking read the thread and then make me angry instead of just making me angry Rels?

[outoforder]

and "why do I shoot a mislynch ?" is a bad question. Since it can be applied to everyone left alive. And one person in that group is scum. So it doesn't work.

NO IT CAN'T!!!!

Why ? Why can't it be applied to everyone left alive ?

because if i am lynched you have fitz/momo/(Kop) here.
Cassielle is suspected by BV. If we add her there then wow... there are plenty of lynches.

????
I'm saying Kop is a potential mislynch for anyone, no matter who is scum. So saying "why do I shoot a mislynch" is not a defense since everyone can say that.

SO YOUR CONCLUSION IS "99% SURE OOO MAKES THIS KILL AND NOONE ELSE"?????????????????????????????????????????????

[outoforder]

VOTE: Rels

[outoforder]

Yeah OOO is 99% scum. Nobody else makes this kill.

I wanna reread the game before committing to that though

and "why do I shoot a mislynch ?" is a bad question. Since it can be applied to everyone left alive. And one person in that group is scum. So it doesn't work.

NO IT CAN'T!!!!

Why ? Why can't it be applied to everyone left alive ?

because if i am lynched you have fitz/momo/(Kop) here.
Cassielle is suspected by BV. If we add her there then wow... there are plenty of lynches.

????
I'm saying Kop is a potential mislynch for anyone, no matter who is scum.

So saying "why do I shoot a mislynch" is not a defense since everyone can say that.

solved. gg.

[outoforder]

doesnt matter, you lost the game regardless if i get lynched or not.
that's for you buddy

[outoforder]

oh i redded the wrong part of the post

[outoforder]

"Yeah OOO is 99% scum. Nobody else makes this kill."

"I'm saying Kop is a potential mislynch for anyone, no matter who is scum."

dum dum dum
Kop is a potential mislynch for ALL the players in the game but me, wh Rels percieves a good scum player is the only one who can make that night kill. ggnore.

[outoforder]

oh you wanna wifom, i will fucking wifom you.
Lynch me and lycnh Rels. Or the other way around. Idc.

You just gave out your scum motive. ^^

[outoforder]

I will hammer myself if at L-1
Just lynch Rels the next day.
BV, read this. Please consider on what you read on his posts.

[outoforder]

So, just to be clear, you think Fitz is town now?

if rels is mafia yes.

[outoforder]

@Rels, give me a link to an outoforder game where he did something similar to this.

@outoforder, what is Rels' motivation to 1v1 you with three lynches to go? He could have easily pretended to "re-evaluate" on the basis of the kill, get in a Fitz mislynch, maybe get in another mislynch and then go after you, especially with you townreading him. Also, what happened to your previous analysis that Rels' never busses Hap in the way he did?

If he survives long enough he has to do something. I don't fucking know. He is doing dumb shit he isn't supposed to do. He has to be mafia though if this is the conclusion he arrives at after reading the thread. Always.

[outoforder]

@Rels, give me a link to an outoforder game where he did something similar to this.

I have no idea if that exists, I said that because when we're in a game together we almost always fight at some point, regarldess of alignments p:

when have i fought you when i was mafia?

[outoforder]

@Rels, give me a link to an outoforder game where he did something similar to this.

@outoforder, what is Rels' motivation to 1v1 you with three lynches to go? He could have easily pretended to "re-evaluate" on the basis of the kill, get in a Fitz mislynch, maybe get in another mislynch and then go after you, especially with you townreading him. Also, what happened to your previous analysis that Rels' never busses Hap in the way he did?

If he survives long enough he has to do something. I don't fucking know. He is doing dumb shit he isn't supposed to do. He has to be mafia though if this is the conclusion he arrives at after reading the thread. Always.

How so ? What should have make me change my mind about you in this thread ?

go read the fucking thread.

[outoforder]

i need beer. brb 10mins.

[outoforder]

Why the fuck do you care about KidAmn if you're 100% sure i am mafia?

[outoforder]

Also incorrect, i was Hapa's first target.
I say target because you were scumreading him because he said "target" and you considered target (without aposthrophes).

[outoforder]

You sure? You are though:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/5 ... e=162#3222

[outoforder]

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/4 ... e=183#3658

shooo... debunked ^^

[outoforder]

so yes, you did intentionally or unintentionally lie here.

[outoforder]

idk it was your argument rofl....

[outoforder]

Why the fuck do you care about KidAmn if you're 100% sure i am mafia?

lol grasping at straws I think
Because I'm never 100% and because I'm rereading the game and I found this interesting enough to make a post about it

Do i have to fucking quote it???

[outoforder]

So there is your grasping...

[outoforder]

Well how is that 99%?

[outoforder]

I am literally being a dick to you and will be until you either lynch me or change your opinion because you're being a retard rn.

[outoforder]

or mafia. i havent excluded that possibility because i TRIED to work reasonably after my dumbass shit on D2. You didn't even give me a chance as it seems. So... There we go, you should know better dude if you're town.

[outoforder]

I am literally being a dick to you and will be until you either lynch me or change your opinion because you're being a retard rn.

Well you pushing me for a contradiciton that doesn't exist + me saying I'm never 100% sure and you quoting a post where I say I'm 100% sure doesn't help your case bro

boooooo i am not even pushing you, i just said i am just being a dick because youre fucking dumb atm. :p

[outoforder]

good then lynch me so you have the privilege of being the only townie i voted all game.

[outoforder]

like i cant discuss anything with you when you do this.
i hope you're town and we lose.
UNVOTE: Rels
VOTE: havingfitz

[outoforder]

good then lynch me so you have the privilege of being the only townie i voted all game.

ok.
What should have make me change my mind in your posts D3 ?

I thought you read the thread?
If there is nothing then i can't say anything about it.

[outoforder]

Can you tell me which post are you referring to?

[outoforder]

The night kill

[outoforder]

The night kill

I don't conclude you're scum from the NK though. I had that conclusion before the NK and the NK is logical with it. So how does that make sense ?

actually you did.

[outoforder]

Yeah OOO is 99% scum.

Nobody else makes this kill.

I wanna reread the game before committing to that though

[outoforder]

Which is why i brought up the 100% because "nobody else" literally means 100%.....

[outoforder]

So Rels, what's up?
UNVOTE: havingfitz

[outoforder]

Yeah OOO is 99% scum.

Nobody else makes this kill.

I wanna reread the game before committing to that though

Yep as said that strengthened even more my scumread on you. Because this kill is more likely to come from someone in a bad spot - which you are. But my scumread was already super strong even before that. That was actually the reason why I voted Hapa D2 - because I saw you as the only possible partner.

But everyone was as likely to make the kill as you said ?

[outoforder]

I'm saying Kop is a potential mislynch for anyone, no matter who is scum. So saying "why do I shoot a mislynch" is not a defense since everyone can say that.

[outoforder]

That's not what you're saying though, or well that's not what your posts say at least.

[outoforder]

Rels if youre town this game and cannot realize i am not mafia after Kop kill i will shoot you whenever i get vigi :p
Seri-fucking-ously man??????????????????? I don't even wanna argue about this shit.

lynch rels + fitz = win the game 100% ggnore.

[outoforder]

Yes i think there are 2 mafia left, Rels is one of them oO

[outoforder]

Rels if youre town this game and cannot realize i am not mafia after Kop kill i will shoot you whenever i get vigi :p
Seri-fucking-ously man??????????????????? I don't even wanna argue about this shit.

lynch rels + fitz = win the game 100% ggnore.

Why you specifically won't shoot Kop ? Why Fitz or I are more likely to shoot Kop than you ?

read my filter.

[outoforder]

I thought you have caught up. Seems like not.

[outoforder]

Like you ask me why i wouldnt shoot Kop.
When you at the same ti´me argue why i WOULD shoot Kop.

pla lynch me so you can lynch Rels / fitz. I wont allow any lynch aside of those three until i am dead.

[outoforder]

ima sleep now. bye.

[outoforder]

can you explain though; how does noone except for me shoot kop?

[outoforder]

Yeah OOO is 99% scum. Nobody else makes this kill.
I wanna reread the game before committing to that though

You literally stated it here so start explaining it to everyone please.
I am off for reals now.

[outoforder]

The post says "Nobody else makes this kill".
Can i be more fucking concise your fucking concise asses holes...................asdpomjersa