Mafia 70: Traditional - Game over!

[Patrick]

Votecount

Setael (3) -- JDodge, Battle Mage, Bookitty
Bookitty (5) -- KaleiÐoscøpe, Niv, Setael, Simenon, Mastermind of Sin
Battle Mage (1) -- Elmo
Mastermind of Sin (1) -- Skruffs

Not voting: Korejora, Ether, Sir Tornado, ZONEACE
14 alive, 8 to lynch.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I did not feel there was much more to be gained by questioning you further. Additionally, I expressed why I felt you were not as suspicious as the other two (Battle Mage and Setael, now) and why my vote was going to Flare.

Can you quote the posts where you did this?

The posts where we argued back and forth are too numerous to quote. I doubt you've forgotten them. The post where I changed my mind about you being my main suspect is quoted below:

Believe it or not, I actually do play in other games than this one. I remember that we argued. That's about the extent of what I remember. That's why I asked you to quote it.

Some interactions between ToasterStrudel and others:

She votes MoS. This could be distancing, but Flare and Zorg jump on this wagon pretty quickly. When Erg0 expresses some discomfort with the wagon, TS states "It's never a bad long-term strategy, especially in a big game, to keep some heat on MoS. If he's scum, you hope that he might slip up. I don't know if that's what Flare and Zorg have in mind, but I sure wouldn't like MoS to get complacent."

This just doesn't seem like scum distancing to me.

unvote

Then, when Ether notes that "You voted MoS with the implications that Flare was town", TS disavows this, stating, "Independently of my observations on MoS, Flare's contributions seem to lean on the side of disruption, rather than contribution, so I would definitely add him to the scummy column."

This DOES look like scum distancing to me.

TS decides to go along with JDodge's suspicions of White (townie), saying "Upon further consideration, I am going to trust JDodge, and my own guts, on this one." I don't see scum saying this about other scum, it's too clear a linkage.

When White attacks Yamahoko for some valid reasons, TS defends Yama, saying "Loaded question noted. Here's another: 'Yama, when did you stop beating puppies?'"

Again, possibly too clear a linkage for scum to make to other scum.

Some weird interplay in which TS doesn't really defend Ether, nor attack her, but just uses her in some confusing example of buddying up to lurkers. (White really wasn't helping himself here, and I have no idea what TS means about Ether in these posts.)

WIFOM: TS accuses White of buddying up with MoS... trying to get back to her original lynch target of MoS, or trying to clear MoS when White comes up town? I'm leaning toward the first, based on tone.

Does some fishing and comes up with the idea that White is a mason, due to Simenon's opposition to his lynch. Loudly hints at her discovery.

Chummily points out to MoS that "I really, really don't see what's so special about Zorg. Whatever scent of scum he gives off, I must be immune to it. I read all the posts, and I just don't get it." Too clear a defense for scum to make of other scum, once again, as I see it.

Really liking my unvote on MoS at the moment. TS seems fixated on him, not something I see scum doing to other scum.

MoS, ZONEACE, Flameaxe, JDodge vote for TS and force a claim. A wagon forms on Zorg nearly instantly. TS votes White, despite the Zorg wagon.

I'm thinking at least one of Zorg (Battle Mage) and Flare is scum. I'm not really sure which, but Toaster Strudel's early comment painting Flare as scum, while never pursuing him in any meaningful manner, seems like a better case for his lynch than Zorg's. TS linked herself rather openly to Zorg, not a move I think smart scum would make.

And rereading Flare's posts, which are alternating attacks and withdrawals of those attacks (at least in my view), I don't see anything to make me reconsider this idea.

I think your reasoning in that post regarding Flare was just a copy of what you said about me, but you went into less detail. You basis of your case against Flare was that TS painted him as scummy but did not

really

push for his lynch. With me, you pointed out that TS was voting me to keep me from getting "complacent". You showed that TS was perhaps not actually trying to push me to lynch, but just trying to keep some of the town's focus on me. I'd argue that TS was doing the same with Flare, instead of scum distancing from him. So the conclusion is not

necessarily

that you should have voted me. As I said before, it's just that you should have come to the same results for the both of us. Looking back, I don't think you should have voted either of us at that point, because I think you showed that TS wasn't distancing. She didn't want to be responsible for pushing a mislynch, but Flare and I were both good focal points for her to direct the town's attention to whenever she needed a distraction, perhaps.

Is it really an odd question? It's not like I said I agreed with your reasoning. I said that

based

on your reasoning, you should either have voted me or dropped suspicion against the others. I did not say that I felt you should be voting me. I obviously feel that no one should be voting me, since I am protown. However, that's not what the point of my post is, although you seem to be trying to twist what I said to imply that I was asking you to vote me.

You weren't agreeing with me. You were agreeing with Setael's argument, the direct implication of which was that I should have found you more suspicious than Flare and maintained my vote on you at that time. That was the logical conclusion, and your response seemed very odd in that context. It seemed that you hadn't understood that this was the end result of following her logic.

I very much understood what I was implying. And I have explained why there's nothing wrong with it. Why should I be afraid to point out that someone's position should have them voting me? If they are not voting me, clearly there is a discrepancy and they are probably scum. It does not matter if I or someone else had been the subject of your posts. My reaction would be the same. Just because it is me does not mean I'm going to ignore the discrepancy.

My responses have been part laziness, part time crunch. As you'll notice if you look in several of my other current games, I'm giving similar responses to people. Last week was finals, and this week I'm just trying to keep up with my games even if I don't always make big posts in them. Anyway, if I was going to just slip onto your wagon without attracting notice, I wouldn't be accusing people of being scum with you.

My vote remains on Setael. Her recent posts have contained numerous contradictions, and she seems determined to defend you, which seems more than a little odd. She's tunnelling solely on me, and she's tripping herself up more and more with every post she makes, in my view.

Erm, how does that have to do with anything I said?

WHOA. Stop the presses! Did you really just try and misrepresent what Setael is saying THAT badly? BooKitty, no protown person should ever act as if a person has NO chance of being town, unless (and not always even then) they have some sort of power role evidence that completely condemns them. If Setael believed there was no chance you were town, she would not even respond to what you say, because there's no point in taking you seriously. However, because there is always the possibility that you are town, we should continuing discussing points with you and treating it as a possibility. By keeping the lines of communication open, it gives you a chance to show that you are protown, and it allows us to do my evidence-gathering to see if we really think you are scum. Your statement above shows a base assumption that Setael should not believe there is even a

chance

of you being protown, and you're trying to twist that around to make it look like Setael "slipped up" and knows you're not scum.

Setael has tunnelled on me in recent posts to the extent that some of her posts read as if she's just repeating, over and over, that I'm scum. She hasn't seemed unsure. Do you argue that she has?

I'm arguing that Setael's apparent "discrepancy" that "proves" she knows you aren't actually scum is actually just a sign that she's open to the

possibility

. Setael obviously

believes

you are scum, but she is not so close-minded as to completely ignore other possibilities.

You do realize there is a very large time difference between those two posts, right? I have since then learned through experience that Person C tells are actually kinda crappy, since they happen all the time. I don't think I've ever actually used the Person C tell since my vote on Booboodafool, which happened, what, day 1?

I asked Setael for a reread. She felt she had no need for one, despite the fact that a reread would have revealed this contradiction in your play. As I said, I tend to watch who jumps on wagons I am on as town, and how they do it, because that's one way to catch scum. Setael doesn't seem interested in that at all. This also adds to the perception of certainty that she is presenting.

This is the second time I have made a post in response to an accusation you made about my own actions, where you have responded with some sort of argument about your discussion with Setael...why are you trying to focus this conversation on what Setael did wrong and completely ignore the fact that I just defended myself against your original accusation?

Are you really trying to argue that there is no advantage in scum defending someone they know isn't mafia? Have you ever heard of buddying up? I'm somewhat ashamed to admit it, but through laziness on my part or just because of the way you presented it, I actually felt better about your alignment after you concluded I was town, since I knew that to be the correct conclusion. Even experienced players like myself are susceptible to scum buddying up to them, unfortunately.

Do you think it's likely that someone would argue as fiercely and persistently as you and I did, and then expect "buddying up" to work? That seems pretty counterintuitive to me.

How so? If someone has made intense arguments against you and finally comes to what I believed to be the conclusion that you are protown, would you not feel that perhaps they had been sincere in their efforts and just finally realized the truth? I certainly thought at the time that your effort in arguing with me was a point in your favor once you unvoted. I didn't occur to me that it was a well-played buddying. So yes, when you think about it, it's not counterintuitive to expect it to work.

We have evidence? That doesn't mean we don't need more evidence. The day I'll say we have enough information as a town is the day that the mod announces guaranteed sane cop results on every player in the game, on Day 1.

I think we've derived as much evidence as can be gained from my wagon, and if you read the statements in context, you'll understand that I was saying that I felt that regardless of whether Setael manages to get me lynched or not, the evidence is there. She's now decided that the discussion is done, so apparently she believes either she'll only damage her case more by making further contradictions, or that town has enough information to make a decision on this wagon now.

The town may have enough evidence to decide this wagon, yes. But you said that the town had enough evidence by now to

win

. That's a completely different implication, and now you're backtracking to cover it up.

Also, my kitty is still cuter.

[Setael]

You're sounding like a broken record with that last statement there.

Also, you're making false assumptions about why I said our back and forth is done. Rather, I think it's time for some other players to comment.

[JDodge]

Setael-Bookie-MoS is looking more and more like a likely scumgroup

[Simenon]

Setael-Bookie-MoS is looking more and more like a likely scumgroup

lol

[Battle Mage]

I believe that is a Zing.

Vote : Mastermind of Sin

You should know better, Skruffs. Please don't be lazy like me.

appeal to emotion. STILL need to read the rest of the game. ZOMFG!

[Mastermind of Sin]

That's not an appeal to emotion.

Read it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_emotion

[Battle Mage]

That's not an appeal to emotion.

Read it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_emotion

read it, and i stand by my comment.

BM

[Korejora]

Holy forty-six page starting day, Batman. Also, Batman, while I have your attention, HOLY QUOTE WARS.

So, I wrote notes on players while I was going through the thread, and while I'm too tired to put them together as coherently as I'd like, you guys deserve a post from me, seeing as how I replaced like... time... ago. Did I mention I was tired? Okay, here they are in order of frontpage appearance.

1) Korejora (replacing Aimee) - Aimee never really talked, except like one PBP. Yeahhh. This gives me the good fortune of not having to deal with people thinking I am protown and buddying up, cause otherwise I'd get all mushy and not want to vote them!
2) Simenon - I don't know what to bring up about this guy besides reviving the mason discussion, which I don't think is appropriate at this point. 3/5 of the masons are out and I think they have a better idea what's going on than we do anyway, what with the nighttalking. And hey, you don't call me Kore at all.
5) JDodge (replacing ckillor) - Kind of annoying and abrasive, but that's WIFOM. Being that he's unhelpful, he gets no brownie points.
6) Ether (replacing Honary Hitchhiker) - Ether kind of bothers me in that she attacked townies on multiple occasions: first White (2, 3), and Setael, then Yamahako, then Aimee (although that's only helpful from my perspective). She was on the TS wagon, IIRC, but Ether strikes me as cunning enough to distance when things don't look good. Maybe she just jumps around a lot. I think I would vote for her.
7) Sir Tornado - Another null check; he seemed to blend in with the general ideas a lot, so he didn't really stand out... which I guess could be considered a scum play, sneaking amongst the ranks. If you said anything you totally felt was the less-trodden path, feel free to bash me over the head with it till I realize you are a unique snowflake.
8) Mastermind of Sin - I can roll with this guy. While he seemed abrasive too at first, he had a point with ZONEACE, and he seems to have helped the town out a fair bit. He seems to trust his gut and I think I can too. Moreover, Strudel tried to lynch him, and Strudel didn't seem like she was pulling something clever like bussing at the time. And you're damn

right

that cat is cuter.
10) Skruffs (replacing Lemming1607) - I figure he's town; seems most confirmed at the moment. I don't think Lemming was clever enough to gambit cop (though saying that makes me feel like a condescending ass). Last night he was probably both some poor killing bastard's and Erg0's target, and is going to end up dead tonight, as he too predicts. I would not vote for him.
11) ZONEACE -

Really

annoying and abrasive, and instead of explaining anything he just says I AM OBVIOUSLY TOWN, YOU ARE OBVIOUSLY SCUM. I'm pretty sure this POV has been thoroughly expressed before me, though, and it's still kind of useless. I am of the opinion that he got the doctor killed, which makes me ponder whether it was on purpose or not.
13) Battle Mage (replacing The Venerable Zorg) - This guy just seems to be repeating long-tired arguments, and kind of looks like he's trying to buddy up to, like, everyone. Of course, he hasn't read the entire thread, apparently, so I guess it's fair for him to come to those conclusions thus far. But given that, his posts are just taking up space. If he keeps posting with the confidence that he should vote, even based on limited information, not having read the thread will cease to be a justification. (Did that make sense to anyone besides me? Sometimes I ramble when I'm tired.) I would vote for him, for sure.
15) Setael II (replacing Flare) - Flare got a point or two for being wagoned by scum day one, I guess, but it wasn't as big as with MOS and he didn't give a lot of other reads. Still, I disagree with the insinuations of Flare being mafia... mostly because I'm not 100% what they even are. Lurking? Other than that - with regards to Setael II - I'm not sure, as the argument over the past few pages made me kind of dizzy. I don't really like this bandwagon, though.
16) KaleiÐoscøpe - Tempted to say he's scummy for not contributing, but that got Yamahako killed... though, IMHO, Yama did more than him so far.
17) Elmo (replacing Beastly) - ?????? no idea. I agree with his latest post, I think, but I haven't seen him post much. Beastly was kind of wishy-washy, but then I think he posted mostly in day one, and then no one has information, so it makes sense.
18) Niv - Umm, I think I believe he's a protown mason. Other than that mostly the same as IH.
21) Bookitty (replacing booboodafool, replacing Celtic18) - Seems protown to me. I don't like this wagon, either. She's very open with her thoughts and posts, she was on the scum lynch, and she refuted the townie lynches with the exception of the Yamahako slip-up, which a lot of people seem to have been on. If she's scum... well... with enemies like these, who needs friends?

P.S.: Random question I have: Why did White get killed night one? He seemed an easy lynch target, not something to waste a night on. There're two killing groups, right? Probably both scum in a game this big?

P.P.S.: I am going to suffer from the dreaded limited access this week, because my family demands that I visit them over the winter break. The situation should be remedied by the 28th or so, whereupon I will be offering my services in-thread once more. That said, I'm not voting because I don't want to leave it unattended while I'm gone. If I

were

to vote, it would be on Battle Mage, though. So, like, pretend I'm voting him or something.

[Simenon]

Ether, are you thinking what I'm thinking about Bookitty-scum?

yes or no question.

[Setael]

She's very open with her thoughts and posts, she was on the scum lynch, and she refuted the townie lynches with the exception of the Yamahako slip-up, which a lot of people seem to have been on.

Wow, you're right. Almost like she already knew everyone's alignment and could therefore do exactly what would make her look good later. That's scum's main advantage, you know? You're foolish if you think they don't use it.

[Bookitty]

What townie lynches did I refute?

I'm just curious, I don't think I've done this, so I'm wondering why Korejora is saying this, and Setael is agreeing.

Evidence please?

[Simenon]

Evidence please?

This question is better directed towards Setael than kore, Bookitty.

(V)

[Skruffs]

Kore -
Why do you think I was someone's night target last night?
Are you suggesting the second kill is an SK? Teh second kill being the one that didn't happen last night.

[ZONEACE]

11) ZONEACE.... I am of the opinion that he got the doctor killed, which makes me ponder whether it was on purpose or not.

Excuse me??? you wanna run that one past me again? I GOT THE DOCTOR KILLED???

[JDodge]

11) ZONEACE.... I am of the opinion that he got the doctor killed, which makes me ponder whether it was on purpose or not.

Excuse me??? you wanna run that one past me again? I GOT THE DOCTOR KILLED???

NEEDS MORE QUESTION MARKS

???????????????????????????????????????????????????

[ZONEACE]

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
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??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????


is that enough Jdodge?

[Battle Mage]

Moar please.

[ZONEACE]

maybe later

[Battle Mage]

read ur pms.

[ZONEACE]

i did, im considering it. will respond tomorrow or thursday

[Battle Mage]

i did, im considering it. will respond tomorrow or thursday

ok cool.

[JDodge]

Mod:

Please replace ZONEFACE and BM for out-of-game communication. Thanks.

[Simenon]

So now I see why Jdodge didn't pick up all my game related pms last night. ):

[Battle Mage]

So now I see why Jdodge didn't pick up all my game related pms last night. ):

rofl.

And ftr, me and Zoneace have not been communicating game related stuff out of game during the day. But, i will be conversing with him tonight. That is all.