Mafia 70: Traditional - Game over!

[White]

Ok, we're going in circles. I've addressed this whole thing before, if you're still curious, then take the time to read my posts. I've been perfectly clear.

As a side note, what possible bearing does this have on the game and catching scum?

[The Venerable Zorg]

I'd say that self-voting is almost always a negative strategy (unless in the random-voting stage). If you are town, you do not want to get lynched, because a lynch on you is a lynch that could be on scum.
-snip-
Yamahako exhibited the giving up scumtell which could be indicative of his alignment. I'd rather see a Yama-lynch than a White-Lynch, but i'm sure there're better lynches than either out there. A lurker for example.

Let's nip this in the bud right now, for the fourth time...

I did NOT self vote

The mod put up a vote count that was missing a vote someone had placed on me, and showed me in the list of people voting for me. This was mod error,

NOT

a self vote.

Vote me if you want because I'm not playing well or adding much to the discussion, but freaking read the game if you are making an honest attempt at analysis.

I have a sparse post history, it wouldn't be that hard to view all my posts to see whether or not I had voted for myself...

Unvote, Vote Simenon

Wow. To think that when i joined this game i was worried that the experience of the players would prove too much for me.
I'm going to say this as loud as possible because apparently people are having trouble understanding me here:

I DID NOT SAY THAT YOU SELFVOTED. I WAS COMMENTING ON THE QUESTION POSED BY SIR TORNADO, TO WHITE, WHICH WAS A QUESTION MORE ABOUT GENERAL GAME MECHANICS THAN ACTUALLY RELEVANT TO THIS PARTICULAR GAME.

I'm sorry if me giving my view on something slightly irrelevant is regarded with such disdain, but seriously, it would help alot if you read the context of my post. Over-defensive much?

Oh and also,

HoS: MastermindofSin

I find it amazing how many people are so quick to jump to his defence, when his play has been so dubious. Yes he might be an experienced player, but that doesn't mean he cannot be scum. His last post is a shining example of blatant opportunism. He sees Yamahako attacking me, and jumps on the argument, as he appeared to do with Erg0 earlier (though i admit that that case wasn't as solid as i thought it was). No matter that he clearly didn't go and read the post in question for himself. I mean, is this sort of jumpy, opportunistic, unintelligent sort of play what you normally expect of a guy with his mafia-credentials.
I'm seeing 'scum' written all over him...

[Beastly]

My responses are in

bold.

* Zorg chimes in attacks the Flameaxe wagon for one that developed on Hmrox. Note the defence of Hmrox. Man this is scummy aswell

I'm no expert on Mafia, but i'd been taught that scum don't usually claim vanilla, because often, it doesnt change alot.

say's it's a town-tell for Zone. That strikes me as not being a town-tell but more one that Zorg knows he's actually town = hence Zorg is scum.

So you think Hmrox is scum then? Or do you just assume that only scum try and stop certain lynches?
I don't really see how you're assuation that i was distancing from a Zoneace mislynch correllates with my subsequent attacks on him...

Your second post you become alarmed at the speed of the wagon on Flameaxe, you vote Celtic. Next post you offer a defence for Hmrox when you state you don't like the switch from the Flameaxe wagon to the Hmrox wagon, why you FOS Flameaxe for this I'll never know. I don't know if Hmrox is scum I'm just looking for little connections here and there. Town are just as likely to stop wagons, as I say it's your unhappiness with the Flame wagon, then the Hmrox one yet you pick out Flameaxe as the one to blame, it looks to me. As far as the Zoneace issue - scum are just as likely to claim vanilla then any other role in my book, I wouldn't say it's a town-tell as you do.

* Niv do not bring Jester's into it please. Quit the jester shit it's scummy raising it, but also acts as a defence for Zone, hence if he's scum then I'm looking at Zeppo as scumpartner.

Why would raising the possibility of a Jester be inherently scummy? Jester isn't an incredibly rare role in my experience, and i've seen people come unstuck by their presence in the past. I'd say its best to be aware of the possibility of such a role being in the game.

I've not played a game with a jester and just flicking through a swath of past games it doesn't seem that common, it seems more of an excuse to fear voting/lynching someone.

* Zorg unvotes MoS wouldn't be because a few ppl have cast suspicion on the MoS wagon per chance?

No it wouldn't. I honestly don't like the way you appear to be misconstruing my actions in an attempt to make MoS look good.
If you read my post you would see why i took my vote off MoS.

Meh that was just a jibe, I obviously didn't know why you unvoted.

* Seteal makes a nice long post. Sticks up for Zorg 133 I disagree that post was scummy, pushing the usual suspects Lemming, Yama defends Zorg again in 279. My this Zorg guy was useless from what I can remember. Defends TS aswell puts some stars next to me, Scope and Zeppo. 600 now calls Zorg scummy, wishy-washy much.

thanks lol. Its not as if you all weren't newbs once i suppose...
I don't really find your comments particularly helpful when they follow the trend of "Zorgs post here is scummy", "Zorg seems scummy here" and "Zorg is useless". If you find a post of mine particularly scummy, please quote it separately so i can aptly defend myself. Alternatively, if you simply get a scummy vibe from me, as appears to be the case, please make that clear. Personal attacks are just plain unhelpful.

I don't mean to personally attack you, I'm new aswell so I apologise if you feel I did. Yes I get a scummy vibe but as I pointed out I'm getting a bad vibe from a lot of people in the game. I'm yet to go through and look at people in complete isolation and scour for inconsistencies so my vote is not a totally stuck on with glue one

Tornado - It just struck me that during the beginning of the game you were looking more than anyone else to prod/promote lurkers, in reflection it wasn't nothing major. I'm not saying it's neccessarily scummy but it's something to keep an eye on because looking at several other games it's a tactic scum like to apply.

I'd like to hear more from MoS and KScope (and the rest of the lurkers whose names I am not going to look up right now)

Yamahako, Celtic18 and Beastly need to post more. K-Scope needs to post more meaningful content.

Note your not the only one. Zorg infact has just pinged me again with this quote.

I'd rather see a Yama-lynch than a White-Lynch, but i'm sure there're better lynches than either out there.

A lurker for example

.

Glad I've caught up anyways.

[booboodafool]

What was the point of that post?

Uh, yeah, a defence.

A defense? For what? I dont even know what im accused of? How about the people who voted for me give me a reason and defend there vote?

[Patrick]

Votecount

Lemming1607 (1) -- Setael
Flare (1) -- Erg0
Mastermind of Sin (1) -- Flare
Yamahako (5) -- White, Aimee, Zeppo, booboodafool, Lemming1607
White (5) -- JDodge, Niv, Toaster Strudel, Ether, ZONEACE
booboodafool (3) -- The Fonz, Simenon, KaleiÐoscøpe
Sir Tornado (1) -- Sir Tornado
The Venerable Zorg (2) -- Beastly, Mastermind of Sin
Simenon (1) -- Yamahako

Not Voting: Flameaxe, The Venerable Zorg
22 alive, 12 to lynch.

[Simenon]

Thanks captian obvious, wnat to change peoples minds then?

If it was obvious then maybe we'd all start getting the message.

I switched to booboo because:
1. I stopped thinking Yama was scum.
2. BooBoo had the biggest new wagon.
3. booboo was scummy and still is scummy.

Unless anybody has any realistic alternatives, I will continue voting him.

Tweny eight pages without any direction in this game is not going to end in a town win.

[Ether]

Colin, why is White not a realistic alternative?

So I look scummy because you agree with me?

Where do you agree with me about Flare?

I call WIFOM when you try and guess what someone else might do or think if they are part of an alignment.

Cops and whatnot barred, that would kind of be every defense that might possibly apply, yes.

Come on, yes or no.

Stop posturing, I gave you something and you ignored most of it.

That's because I was asked to ask you questions. I figured inserting opinions on someone that's not related to what I was asked to do would be completely useless and would likely look like some sort of deflection or something. Generally I like to respond to what I was asked and not add irrelevant info about third parties.

So...you're not scumhunting because you're afraid of looking deflective. What's up with all that OMGUSy pseudolurkerhate?

Keep in mind that

I

asked you to analyze my posts, so it's not unreasonable to figure that my main goal is to get someone reading my posts and talking with me about them. Flare's scumhood is certainly

not

irrelevant; if you're analyzing me, you should obviously look at his posts for validity. Find scum, even if it's just someone I'm pointing to.

Or just die.

Ether suggested outing another mason to confirm Simenon and Niv which seemed scummy. Pro-Town players wouldn’t be pushing to confirm more townies this early.

This is a misrepresentative lie that blatantly ignores what I actually said. I made no such suggestion.

Pro-Town players wouldn’t be pushing to confirm more townies this early. Her Simenon vote (6th on wagon) is opportunistic. Pro-Town players would not be pushing a wagon on a claimed mason this early in the game. Sim and Niv are likely scum NK targets – why would Townies want to make the scum’s work so much easier? These votes seem contrived just to get the other masons to claim which is extremely anti-Town.

Simenon's and Niv's early accounts suggested that one of them was lying, which was why I voted. Unconfirmed masons are not more worth protecting than unconfirmed players in general.

Post 611 OMGUS looking vote on White.

I don't think it was OMGUS, as I don't regard his post as an actual attack. I

made

him analyze me, you realize, and I already didn't like him (as foreshadowed in a post you approved of). I'll admit that I'm feeling a strong newfound resentment toward

you

as of your misrepresentations of me (which do appear to be an attack which you initiated, yes).

[Simenon]

Colin, why is White not a realistic alternative?

He's not a "new" wagon, iirc, and wagoning White tends to get him lynched/killed regardless of whether he's scum or not.

[Setael]

Ether suggested outing another mason to confirm Simenon and Niv which seemed scummy. Pro-Town players wouldn’t be pushing to confirm more townies this early.

This is a misrepresentative lie that blatantly ignores what I actually said. I made no such suggestion.

Wow. "Misrepresentative lie that blatantly ignores" is pretty harsh. Are you trying to make me look suspicious or something? Here's what you actually said:

Colin's lack of a Nivote is bizarre. This in itself is null, but I see a clear dichotomy in the arguments and favor a Colynch. Since, y'know, Niv came out without prompting on Day 1 and all. I don't see scum motivation behind that. (I'd approve of outing another mason to clear up this mess, except that it wouldn't. Either Niv lied or he didn't: Colin's mason-talking strategy is an irrelevant tangent.)

Upon rereading it I can see that you didn't actually approve of outing another mason, you just said you would approve outing another mason if it would clear up this mess. I apologize for misunderstanding. I did not lie nor did I blatantly ignore your actual meaning. And for the record, I still think it's scummy that you would approve outing another mason if you thought it would clear up this mess.

Simenon's and Niv's early accounts suggested that one of them was lying, which was why I voted. Unconfirmed masons are not more worth protecting than unconfirmed players in general.

Yes they are when there are 3 other people who could claim to confirm them. Pressuring them further is pressuring the other masons to claim. Also, why vote to lynch them when if they are telling the truth the scum will be motivated to NK them?

I don't think it was OMGUS, as I don't regard his post as an actual attack. I made him analyze me, you realize, and I already didn't like him (as foreshadowed in a post you approved of). I'll admit that I'm feeling a strong newfound resentment toward you as of your misrepresentations of me (which do appear to be an attack which you initiated, yes).

You are awfully touchy. You get 2 bonus points for having the self control to not vote me inspite of this newfound resentment.

[Erg0]

Evidently the Flare wagon is dying. Let's go to option B.

Unvote, Vote: The Venerable Zorg

[Sir Tornado]

Ok, we're going in circles. I've addressed this whole thing before, if you're still curious, then take the time to read my posts. I've been perfectly clear.

As a side note, what possible bearing does this have on the game and catching scum?

Actually, no, we are not going in circles. You made a statement that amounted to: "Self voting is always bad play". I self voted and asked you to tell me exactly how my self vote was bad play. You still haven't answered it.

[Sir Tornado]

Tornado - It just struck me that during the beginning of the game you were looking more than anyone else to prod/promote lurkers, in reflection it wasn't nothing major. I'm not saying it's neccessarily scummy but it's something to keep an eye on because looking at several other games it's a tactic scum like to apply.

I'd like to hear more from MoS and KScope (and the rest of the lurkers whose names I am not going to look up right now)

Yamahako, Celtic18 and Beastly need to post more. K-Scope needs to post more meaningful content.

You still haven't told me the post where I tried to "pressurize" lurkers.

[The Fonz]

What was the point of that post?

Uh, yeah, a defence.

A defense? For what? I dont even know what im accused of? How about the people who voted for me give me a reason and defend there vote?

I think the reason for the votes on you is pretty clear. Your scummy person C vote. Your pretence there is no case seems pretty panicky to me.

Also, Setael's last vote is full of fail.

[Erg0]

I really think that the people voting based on the Person C tell need to give a more complete account of themselves. This is not a commonly accepted tell as far as I know, so "Person C tell" is not a case.

[The Fonz]

WTF has 'commonly accepted' got to do with anything? It's something I believe in, as do several others, and with good reason. There's very little in this game that is 'commonly accepted'- see the flamewar that almost inevitably follows any vote made on the basis of LynchAllLiars.

Here's Yos' basic explanation of his use of the 'Person C' tell, the bit I've bolded is basically the crux of the matter:

If I look at any game, and see person A make a bad argument saying person B is scum, and then person C jumps in and says "yup, I agree with person A" without making any points of his own, I always suspect person C.

It's a scumtell to quietly throw your support behind a bandwagon, while hiding behind someone else's arguments. It's actually quite a good scumtell, and something scum do often, because

it's a way to get townies lynched without sticking your own neck out.

It's one of the oldest and most reliable scumtells.

[Erg0]

Pay attention, I already linked to that post. You'll pardon me if I expect more than "Yos said so" as the sole reason for a wagon. Given that at least 50% of the players (myself included) had clearly never heard of the tell before, is it that surprising that booboo was bewildered and wanted to know what the case against him was?

FoS: The Fonz

[The Fonz]

That's the argument for person C votes being a tell. You'll pardon me if I think 'because it's scummy' is ample reason for a wagon.

Booboo wasn't 'bewildered' he asked that people 'gave a reason' and 'explained their vote.' Since we already had given reason, who gives an eff that he didn't understand it? It's not like 'person C' is something I made up.

[ZONEACE]

could someone explain person c to me cause i'm a little lost. The vernacular has changed significantly in my absence.

[Erg0]

Hey, here's another quote:

A defense? For what? I dont even know what im accused of?

You may not have made this up, but as far as booboo's concerned you may as well have. Two people vote him for no more reason than "this is because of his Person C vote", then two more people vote him without giving any reason at all. Do you really not see why a natural reaction might be to ask for a case? How is he supposed to defend himself if he doesn't even know why people are voting for him?

You know what

I

find scummy? People reaching for a case when they should be able to put the pieces together and figure out why someone's reaction is perfectly reasonable given the circumstances. You're trying way too hard to make booboo look scummy here.

[The Fonz]

basically, person A votes person B, and forwards an argument for B's scumminess.
Person C votes person B, saying 'I agree with A.' This is scummy for the reasons expounded above.

[Erg0]

ZONEACE: read Fonz's post above for an explanation, or there's a link in my post 630 to the game that it came from.

[The Fonz]

Erg0: I didn't exactly like Celtic either.

[Erg0]

That isn't the point I'm making. The FoS is for post 687.

[The Fonz]

That isn't the point either. I was making the point that there was actually more to the vote than just person C. And I strongly disagree with you. Throwing accusations of 'OMG you're voting me for no reason' is a newbscum tell.

[Erg0]

Even if four people

are

voting you for no reason? Or at least no reason that you can understand?

Also, quit using hyperbole. booboo's post was nowhere near as panicky as you're trying to make it seem. I read it as him saying that he didn't understand the case, not that the case didn't exist.

Also, I find it interesting that you've decided at this point to expand your case as I originally asked, after it became clear that the other argument wasn't going to fly.