Mini Normal 1829 - Game Over

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1032 (isolation #0) » Fri Sep 09, 2016 9:52 am

Hi, I'm slowly catching up!

UNVOTE:

I just started reading, I'm on page 9 and I currently have pretty good townreads on Thor, Nero, Kraska, and Maria. Since there's still a lot to go and the deadline is near, I think I'll save my closer readings/note-taking for the night.

Kraska

, since Elyse looks like the biggest bandwagon that isn't on someone I'm townreading, can you talk to me a bit more about her? I saw some of your points against her and agreed, I just would like to know if anything has solidified that scumread on her. I don't want to vote for her on my own until I get a good feel of the current gamestate, so some selected reading on that would be nice so we can expedite that a bit.

Also, in the case Transcend hasn't mentioned it yet, I'm negative utility (Ascetic to be specific). I'm still kind of new to the site but I'm under the impression it's correct town play to claim any NU as soon as possible.

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1035 (isolation #1) » Fri Sep 09, 2016 10:07 am

In post 1034, kraska77 wrote:Read my iso

Hm, not as helpful as I was anticipating, I'll read her ISO for myself. Has a lot actually happened this game? It feels bloated and it's kind of hard to read through

i don't think i'm ever shitposting again in mafia btw, god have mercy on people who replace in

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1039 (isolation #2) » Fri Sep 09, 2016 10:26 am

Thor

, talk to me a bit more about your read on Elyse. You've mentioned a few times in your ISO that you found her scummy and did vote for her, but beyond finding one of her votes opportunistic I haven't seen much development on it. I'm kind of worried since your vote seems parked on a vanity wagon when it looks like you can reasonably give a wagon on one of your other scumreads traction.

VOTE: Elyse

I don't really see a better place for my vote at the moment and this seems like the direction I'll be going in.

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1045 (isolation #3) » Fri Sep 09, 2016 11:42 am

Elyse wrote:
In post 1032, gigabyteTroubadour wrote:Also, in the case Transcend hasn't mentioned it yet, I'm negative utility (Ascetic to be specific). I'm still kind of new to the site but I'm under the impression it's correct town play to claim any NU as soon as possible.
Transcend did not claim this because he is not town

This is phrased really strangely to me for some reason, but other than that I'm not really going to comment on this.

In post 1043, MichelSableheart wrote:welcome giga, and thank you for replacing in. I know how annoying the bloat in this thread can be. There have been a couple of instances where I've been away for a couple of hours, only to come back to several pages of mostly useless content. Must be far worse for you.

The main thing you should be aware of, as you can see from the earlier part of my post, is that Transcend claimed to be masons with Elyse, then later retracted that claim. I hope you'll understand that I'll be pushing for your lynch.

Elyse and Michel,

is the entire scumread of Transcend based around the fact people felt that his mason fakeclaim was an icky gambit to butter up Maria? I looked through Elyse's ISO and that's essentially the impression I got. If that's so, then I can understand the logic behind the scumread at the very least, even though I know it comes to the wrong conclusion. I think Thor, due to mutual [ongoing] experience with Transcend, can at least agree with me that Transcend is an... interesting player who would do something stupid like that as town. Plus, I think someone mentioned that EM's meta is more gambity, and knowing Transcend's playstyle from there (he pestered me to play there a few times, wasn't fond of it) this really does not come as a surprise. I can't really justify Transcend's thought process and I'm not really going to try, but this seems like typical Transcend to me.

There also seems to be a recurring belief that one of {Me, Maria} is mafia, but at the moment I'm townreading Maria so this thought process seems kind of weird to me. I can understand scum!Me/town!Maria and obviously town!Me/town!Maria, but I'm not exactly getting town!Me/scum!Maria. So, if this is still something people believe I would like to hear the logic behind scum!Maria.

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1046 (isolation #4) » Fri Sep 09, 2016 1:15 pm

Reading Michel's ISO, I'm surprised that my slot's case is the one being pushed to L-3 three days before the deadline. Is there really no slot that's done something more notable/scummy than "fakeclaiming masons with someone you townread can be anti-town"...? Because that sounds like a policy lynch to me and I really don't care for those.

I also don't really follow why people are comparing Michel to iraonavp... Sure, Michel and I probably think at different wavelengths but I can at least follow and understand his thought process to the point I'm giving him a townlean for it.

By the way... I don't think I'm going to be writing catch-up posts this game, I'd rather save us the time and try to directly sort out people and let that communicate my thoughts on the gamestate, if that makes sense.

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1055 (isolation #5) » Sat Sep 10, 2016 12:23 am

In post 1047, Blitzkrieg wrote:
In post 1044, MariaR wrote:
In post 1042, Elyse wrote:Maria I hope you know that if you actually are town then I'm really disappointed
Only voting you cause I don't see any other wagon starting between and I tr giga over you sorry!
Translation: She's voting you because she's scum with giga.

Giga who refuses to finish reading the thread but has a townread on Maria.

Nice attempt at smearing me, but I have a life and reading 200 shitposts from Transcend when I have no need to sort him isn't something I really care to do at the moment. And, I don't "refuse" to read the thread, I'm trying to make myself useful immediately instead of spending 2 days lurking/reading the thread carefully when the deadline is literally tomorrow. And, even then, I'm reading the thread right now.

Blitz

, why is it strange for me to have a townread on a player I am familiar with early into the game?

Anyone who has played with town!gerryoat before,

is he always... like this?

Gerry

, do you have any reads whatsoever? At this point I'd be fine if you sheeped a townread or even went with your gut on something, it's the D1 deadline and somehow the game has stalled onto what is essentially a policy lynch. That says a lot about the gamestate to me.

btw, for anyone who cares... With a little "hacking", you can selectively mute some people from the thread instead of isolate specific people. This is the URL that I'm using to read the thread right now (muting Transcend and Maria, love you guys but

god

):

Code: Select all

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?t=68243&f=2&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&user_select%5B%5D=28120&user_select%5B%5D=27548&user_select%5B%5D=20873&ser_select%5B%5D=28282&user_select%5B%5D=12950&user_select%5B%5D=23679&user_select%5B%5D=27584&user_select%5B%5D=28130&user_select%5B%5D=7306&user_select%5B%5D=12589&user_select%5B%5D=27924&user_select%5B%5D=12326&user_sort=Go

and when you want to change the page, just add (to go to page 2, it's 200. 3 is 300, 4 400, etc.):

Code: Select all

&start=200

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1056 (isolation #6) » Sat Sep 10, 2016 1:45 am

In post 477, Elyse wrote:
In post 473, MariaR wrote:I thought she meant it as in my game is wavering in this game and it was pretty perfect in the scum game so she thinks I'm town that logic seems fine to me or did you take it a dif way
You think it's ok to base a meta read on one game of experience?

Especially now that you say you change every game?

ughghdfhsgdsfad stupid mason claim I want to lynch you with fire

So I'm on page 20 right now and I have to ask people's opinions on something: The mason claim was pretty obviously a load of bs-ass bullshit and people discussed why. Maria wouldn't have acted the way she did when her wagon built up because she'd have the claim to save her. But then why are people hesitating to vote for Transcend/Maria at that point? Is this more of a site meta thing where the claim is just assumed to be true? This might just be hindsight bias from knowing the claim is obviously fake but I feel like there should be a vote in this post.

My readlist at the moment is (in no particular order):

Strong town

: Kraska (mostly from meta, otherwise she'd be a townlean), Thor

Town

: MariaR, Nero, Michel

Townlean

: JJD, IAI

Null

: Gerryoat, Karnos, Blitzkrieg

Scumlean

: Shadow_Step

Scum

: Elyse

I can explain any of these reads as needed.

Also,

IaI

, can you talk to me about your Blitzkrieg read? Thanks.

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1057 (isolation #7) » Sat Sep 10, 2016 2:26 am

In post 726, Nero Cain wrote:gerryoat not having any strong scum reads after like 30 pages shows shades of his scum play last game.

Nero,

can you elaborate on this more? Gerry is slowly moving into my scumpool but I don't really trust my ability to read players like him.

Maria,

is Gerry generally useless regardless of his alignment? I think in all of Gerry's ISO there was like only 1 post I found that was decent.

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1059 (isolation #8) » Sat Sep 10, 2016 2:41 am

In post 1058, Shadow_step wrote:Yes please

Trying to read me as scum to emulate your town play in the last game ?

what the fuck lmao

No, I read you as scum because during our last game, you came across to me more as tryhard town during points I thought you were town (and when you were conftown obviously). You've done nothing this game but prodge, your vote is parked on a vanity wagon yet you're implying you're scumreading me. That doesn't seem like what I would expect of town you.

Can you give a readslist or something?

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1061 (isolation #9) » Sat Sep 10, 2016 3:21 am

OK, I'm pretty much caught up. I don't have too many issues with my lynch, Transcend was legitimately awful and I get why people wanted him lynched. His slot, though, is town and I'm a completely different player so let's try to be a bit more rational about this. I think that this town was too focused on the Transcend/Maria dynamic (which I believe is most likely T+T) and neglected to pressure some of the lurkier and scummier slots. It's obviously too late to do any of that, so if I end up getting lynched today, all I ask is that you put Maria and Kraska on the back burner for now and try to focus more on {Elyse, Shadow, Gerry, Karnos} because me having nullreads at EoD1 and page 43 is awful and absolutely unacceptable.

This is my final readlist post-catch up:

Strong town

: Kraska, Thor

Town

: IAI, Nero, Michel

Townlean

: JJD, MariaR, Blitzkrieg

Null

: Gerryoat, Karnos

Scumlean

: Shadow_Step

Scum

: Elyse

I'm a bit iffier on Maria now but I still think she is town. Blitz is probably my weakest townread and I'd like to know where people are coming from on her (town and scum) because it's more of a gut read for me.

I'm logging off for today and I think I've asked enough questions for now. I'll try to get back to anyone else who asks me things later.

Shadow_step wrote:That sounds like bullshit, you think you can meta me after one game?
Last game was different, maria basically scum claimed but all of you were fucking blind to it. Nothing of that sort in this game.

Gerry is a bigger scum read that you, so why should I be voting you ?

No, I don't think I can meta you but I can at least have expectations. I can't think of a possible reason I should be townreading you, and the fact that I'm pretty sure there's scum in the lurkers makes me feel that you, maybe gerry, is scum.

I still don't think Maria was that scummy in 649, you were scumreading Skelda for a lot of similar reasons (like accepting being lynched)... Knowing her a bit better I can believe a scumread of her in that game but that's that game and this is this game.

I would expect a vote from you because it's deadline and we need a lynch... Wasn't your vote on the Skelda wagon more of a compromise vote anyway? I don't see why you can't compromise on me if you think I'm scum. It looks to me that perhaps one of your partners might be on my wagon and you're avoiding it for that reason.

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1063 (isolation #10) » Sat Sep 10, 2016 3:29 am

In post 1062, Shadow_step wrote:Why if my partner is on your wagon wouldn't I be voting you ?

If too many mafiosos vote on the same wagon, it'll gain momentum too fast and it'll be obviously scum motivated. Take Skelda's wagon in 649, the entire scumteam was on it at one point and there was barely any reason for anyone on it to vote for him.

I don't think my wagon is scum-motivated but I think it's likely that there's at least 1 scum on it. Obviously though, you can say that about any arbitrary grouping of people.

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1065 (isolation #11) » Sat Sep 10, 2016 3:40 am

In post 1064, Shadow_step wrote:That doesn't make sense, you are saying I should be voting you to secure a lynch while also saying that I'm not voting you because one of my buddies are on your wagon.

I don't see how that's a contradiction. Town!You probably compromises at this point and should in my opinion. Scum!You might too, but you seem insistent to stay on a vanity wagon when the deadline is in like 2 days and I can't think of any town reason to do so.

In post 1064, Shadow_step wrote: I have more than enough reason to vote you as either alignment so why the hell would I hesitate?

Yeah, why are you hesitating? Either use the two days we have to pressure Gerry and push a case on him or get off your vanity wagon. Just voting for Gerry does nothing.

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1067 (isolation #12) » Sat Sep 10, 2016 3:55 am

In post 436, Shadow_step wrote:No. I meant about your "slip", if you were town you would know scum never fall for that kinda shit, only thing it ever achieves is that it confuses town. Hence there is no town benefit behind doing that.
Hence proved you are scum.

This is the only post that I've found that resembles a push... So gerry is scum because he softed a PR...? I honestly thought he was getting ready to do a stupid fake dayvig when I ISO'd him.

And gerry probably thought it was a valid ""reaction test"" anyway... Saying things like "if you were town you would know scum never fall for that kinda shit" is fallacious logic. Bad logic obviously doesn't mean you're scum but

please

...

This isn't really a sheepable case, do you have anything more?

And ofc the Elyse wagon is going places right now, it's literally my counterwagon. I haven't seen Thor or anyone else post and I think by the time they do it's possible more people will join. Why are people supposed to follow your one vote, anyway?

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1069 (isolation #13) » Sat Sep 10, 2016 4:12 am

OK, this is better. I still think gerry needs to post more though because he's dead weight at the moment and I'd like help sorting him from people familiar with him.

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1071 (isolation #14) » Sat Sep 10, 2016 4:36 am

In post 1070, JarJarDrinks wrote:UNVOTE:

gig is towntelling a little bit. Not enough to totally negate my scumread of the slot but enough for an unvote. Also feel like a scum replacement doesn't make that claim there.

JJD, what are your thoughts on Elyse?

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1084 (isolation #15) » Sat Sep 10, 2016 9:24 am

I got a little carried away here because Elyse's ISO just looks super scummy to me... Whoops. I hate writing walls.

@Elyse

, there are some questions in there too since this post is pretty much directed towards you, so if you miss them, I'll quote them for you later.

For people who skim/ignore walls, there's a TL;DR at the top but I would hope that most people at least try to follow my thought process here.

Spoiler: Why Elyse is Scum

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1088 (isolation #16) » Sat Sep 10, 2016 9:49 am

Then why vote Karnos over Elyse...? You put them in the same tier, that implies they're about equal.

gigabyteTroubadour · Sat Sep 10, 2016 10:54 am

can you be useful then and at least have a scumread or some townreads...

gigabyteTroubadour · Sat Sep 10, 2016 10:58 am

...
if you don't have any reads then your slot isn't exactly helpful... i'd say useless is p accurate

Do you scumread Elyse? I would hope so if you're voting for her but I have no fucking clue how I'm supposed to sort you.

gigabyteTroubadour · Sat Sep 10, 2016 11:08 am

...

gigabyteTroubadour · Sat Sep 10, 2016 11:54 pm

In post 1108, Nero Cain wrote:
In post 1057, gigabyteTroubadour wrote:Nero, can you elaborate on this more? Gerry is slowly moving into my scumpool but I don't really trust my ability to read players like him.
just read http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=67506

basically, Gerry had no strong reads early then tunneled on town BYF for most of the game. I believe that most players have weak enough games that they can stay fairly consistent with their play.

I mean, I see your point but at least in that game he tried to bs opinions in the beginning. He has a town game where he was equally as useless and got lynched D2 as the town's sole investigative role...

In post 1181, gerryoat wrote:this is a hard game, idk who is maf lol

So honestly this might be town!Gerry. He's still a nullread to me, I kind of don't like how he implied that he was intentionally trying to be difficult to read because that's

technically

something that only benefits scum!Gerry unless my grasp of theory is totally bizzare.

In post 1112, MichelSableheart wrote:Town fakeclaiming is something that in my experience (4 years out of date, admittedly) never happened. So when two players claimed mason together, I felt it was either scum+scum or mason+mason. Given that, accidentally suspecting one of our strongest powerroles felt far more likely then two scum risking everything on an early day 1 gambit. If I had been more aware of how accepted town fakeclaims appearantly are in the current meta, I would have looked into it far more, because then all of a sudden one scum+one fakeclaiming town becomes a possibility.

See, this is why your vote felt natural and reasonable and why Elyse's didn't.

In post 1112, MichelSableheart wrote:The way that giga combed through Elyse's post, finding fault with most of them, feels like giga starts out wanting to suspect Elyse and then goes looking for reasons, rather then giga suspecting Elyse and explaining her reasons. The way Elyse dealt with the mason claim, and the fact that she may be lining up the giga and maria lynches are valid reasons to suspect her. I would expect town giga to focus on those, rather then criticize almost every post in detail.

Why does explaining why I think an ISO shows a scum-thought process imply I have an agenda? Elyse asked me why I suspected her since I was asking for other people's reads on her, and I felt that if I showed how I came to the conclusion that she was my strongest scumread then people would understand. I've never played with you before so I don't know if this is a misrep, but this feels like confirmation bias.

In post 1108, Nero Cain wrote:i do kinda hate this though...

Would you rather my slot do nothing and/or make votes that would have been relevant page 20? I read through the entire thread once and also took a look through ISOs, I have a good idea of what the current gamestate is like and I'm also getting reads from the interactions I'm having. Is there something wrong with that?

Also, Nero, why are you starting a wagon on Michel? My townread of him aside, the deadline is in less than 2 days, now is the time to compromise on wagons instead of push new ones, at least in my opinion. I'd rather I be mislynched then us have no lynch.

gigabyteTroubadour · Sun Sep 11, 2016 12:50 am

IaI, can you talk to me a bit more about your Blitzkrieg townread? I was liking some of her posts close to the time Transcend replaced out, but other than that I'm not getting a strong read on her one way or another.

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1123 (isolation #22) » Sun Sep 11, 2016 5:40 am

In post 1122, Nero Cain wrote:hurry up and post Giga so I can reply and go watch football. We got 30 mins.

sorry i'm like doing three things at once

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1124 (isolation #23) » Sun Sep 11, 2016 5:44 am

In post 1073, Elyse wrote:Hey giga

Instead of asking other people for their thoughts on me, you should try explaining your scumread on me.

It's kind of expected when you're only scumreading one person who just so happens to be the biggest counterwagon to your lynch.

Elyse, you don't get to ask me to explain my read on you and then accuse me of trying to paint you in a bad light because it's a scumread.

Nero Cain wrote:
Also, Nero, why are you starting a wagon on Michel? My townread of him aside, the deadline is in less than 2 days, now is the time to compromise on wagons instead of push new ones, at least in my opinion. I'd rather I be mislynched then us have no lynch.
I'm active town so I can do whatever I want. I mean if I were lurky like Blitz or IAI I could understand but I'm active and here so I can change my vote at anytime.

What do you think of my scumread on Michel?

I mean, I disagree with it. He seems like he at least believes what he's saying and his train of thought makes sense to me, even if I think it's wrong. It's enough for an early-game townread from me, I agree with Kraska's earlier point in that it might be better to rely on associations and his role in the town's dynamic to get a read on him.

As for your reasoning behind it, I think you're looking too deeply into his take on whatever you want to call the beginning-of-the-game voting stage (RVS, AVS, LIVS??). To me, it looked like he just picked one of the naked voters arbitrarily and pushed them. I'm not really following your logic I guess.

I don't think the push itself is terrible though because I townread you and I think that it's good to sort out every slot (since most of the focus this game has been around Maria and me), just kind of wasted effort because it's nearly deadline and I personally think that the town's best course of action is to engage in Elyse and I's 1v1 because I think either of our lynches are the most pro-town. Elyse because I scumread her, myself because I'm negative utility and hopefully my town flip will put the town in a different trajectory tomorrow.

If he ends up lynched ever this game, it won't be today for sure. Is there anything in your past game together that affects your read on him?

also go watch your football, i have to catch up on my calc and stats work

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1158 (isolation #24) » Sun Sep 11, 2016 2:22 pm

In post 1134, Thor665 wrote:I would like to hear the logic from you that rules it out.
Maria is being an opportunistic voter, openly so, and an AtE machine, who isn't explaining anything beyond when she does a scummy act and then deigns to hang a hat on it as a defense, mixed with defensive claims that are themselves AtE and meta based on a claim of superlative scum play, despite admitting that on her other site her scum play is considered weak and her town play strong.

She needs death.

She literally just did a reaction test to clear Elyse and then voted her.
Seriously now.
Where's Michael and his optimal theory play case on that one?

I admit it's kind of tinfoily and its strength is wavering significantly...

My initial townread of her came from the fact that her role in the group's dynamic and her level of comfort doesn't seem to match up with the pattern I expected from a scum!Maria. Based on a few of the scumgames of Maria I've looked at, her attitude seems to vary greatly based on its playerlist. For example, in Mini 1823 with a town!Transcend and gerry, her ISO doesn't read as awkwardly as this one does, and her tone is aggressive and jokey. I think this came from the fact that she was familiar with the playerlist and feels comfortable playing with them and manipulating them. It probably worked too, she pretty much obvscummed the whole game and survived until endgame somehow. Versus my actual experience with scum!Maria, she played up the newbie card and had a very awkward approach to playing the game, probably because she actually was nervous and didn't know anyone. Hell, while skimming Machiavellian Mafia while it was ongoing (but post Maria flip in 649), I thought Maria was

town

because she was acting so differently. While looking for more examples to support this theory of mine too, I came across this quote from another player who I also think picked up on this during a 3p LYLO where Maria was, in fact, scum:

Spoiler:

So, the fact that I know that Transcend is town and me seeing Maria react really poorly to pressure makes me think that this is how she naturally is as town... Scum!her would probably actually try to pocket Transcend again because it almost always works for her and can probably bluff better under pressure from her wagon. The fact that she has

some

degree of confidence also support this for me.

What made my read waver though is all of this confusing shit she's pulling with Elyse and the fact that I don't think Maria has really done anything townie. As much as I hate pre-flip associatives, Elyse and Maria are probably not scum together and I actually think Elyse is scum. So, I

like

the tinfoil theory that Maria is town because of the group dynamic but I can compromise on her at this point if the Elyse wagon is dismantled entirely because Maria hasn't really done anything that's made me feel good about townreading her.

kraska77 wrote:I think I'm gonna re-read the game Tom
I feel like my reads are off

history says this probably is a bad sign for my reads too :/

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1166 (isolation #25) » Sun Sep 11, 2016 2:42 pm

ok like we have 1 day until the deadline, so if it's necessary:

i am honestly happy to lynch myself, my mislynch is actually incredibly pro-town. i will flip town, but it might be better for the gamestate if i'm gone. to elaborate:

A: The ascetic claim can probably be used to stir up paranoia if my slot lives past N1. It can't be investigated (and I assume that a town ascetic is placed into the game to weaken the town's investigative power) and confirming my claim is a waste of a night, so there's always going to be paranoia around my slot.

B: My townflip will probably point to the fact that town is looking in the wrong direction, which I think it is. I am completely serious when I say that I want people to just put Maria and Kraska on ignore D2 and focus on the slots that haven't received much pressure. Kraska is really obvious town and I know I'm going to be the only one who sees that. Maria could absolutely be scum, but she's still a distraction I think, especially when there are lurkers who I can't even read (I think Karnos might be the town one, that's really all I got). More slots need sorting and pressure, not enough work was done D1 because Transcend was an idiot. Starting D2 off with another RVS/AVS actually is not that far-fetched of an idea, that's how badly information starved I think this town is.

C: Hell, if Elyse is town too (which given my track record in scumreads is plausible, this feels like Vedith 2.0 but idfk), then the fact that our wagons are moving at weird paces will help with VCA. In Open 649, I caught the scumteam based on VCA because D1 was centralized by a shitty wagon on town and I happened to push a counterwagon on another townie. Yes, I died before I shared my results, but that's not the point. The two wagons were stuck at L-2 for the entire deadline, and it turned out that it was because the scumteam literally could not do anything to get any of them lynched. What if that's why there's so many vanity wagons here?

D: I think Transcend deserves a good portion of the blame for this horrible gamestate for town, so his slot getting lynched is karmatic justice really. If I survive today, I'm probably not going to be able to obvtown enough to avoid rope in the future, so why not get it done now?

So if the majority of the town struggles to find a viable lynch, I am honestly volunteering to policy lynch myself. If not, I can do a Shadow or Gerry wagon if not Elyse, but I really do not care for lynching lurkers D1. If Maria's wagon gets going and it doesn't look like anything else is happening, I can compromise on it.

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1169 (isolation #26) » Sun Sep 11, 2016 2:51 pm

but i'm scumreading none of those slots

like michel is more likely than not town and I can't read blitz for shit, deadline wagonning them sounds horrible

shadow or gerry are a lot better to me.

I have like literally no reason to scumread Shadow in all honesty. I just expected more from him because of our last game, and his Karnos vote with you was really weird... Other than that his slot hasn't been super helpful, and at least out of the three lurkers (and I really think one of them is scum) he's probably the one most likely flipping scum.

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1173 (isolation #27) » Sun Sep 11, 2016 2:58 pm

In post 1171, MariaR wrote:I think it's really really risky to vote in lurkers where we can get very good info reads on Elyse's flip

well yeah, that's why i've preferred an elyse lynch over any, with 1 day left a lurker lynch can backfire

but if people think she's town then I think i'm a better lynch. that's why i was trying to push a 1v1. I strongly believe self-voting is stupid and you know I've lost a game because of it happening, but I really can't see an alternative way to steer town in a better direction if one of us can't get lynched. maybe i'm just not thinking hard enough.

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1179 (isolation #28) » Sun Sep 11, 2016 3:10 pm

elyse isn't going to go anywhere though, the wagon composition is awful. even if she is scum she isn't going to get lynched.

i'm not really sure who i want to vote though, which is why vote is parked for now.

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1185 (isolation #29) » Sun Sep 11, 2016 3:24 pm

UNOFFICIAL VOTE COUNT

gigabyteTroubadour (L-3) : MichelSableheart, Elyse, karnos, Blitzkrieg.

Elyse (L-4) : gigabyteTroubadour, gerryoat, MariaR

karnos (L-6) : Shadow_step.

MariaR (L-6) : Thor665.

MichelSableheart (L-6) : Nero Cain.

Not Voting (1) : JarJarDrinks.

Nero Cain will be v-la till Sunday.

Day will end in (expired on 2016-09-13 10:30:00)

Even if I vote myself, I'll be at L-2 and every other slot has indicated that they think I'm town. So unless two other people are willing to policy lynch me, I can't see how I get lynched today. I'll hope for a vig.

Maria is probably the easiest lynch I'm willing to do, Thor is already voting her and you can probably just put everyone voting for me down as voting for Maria.

Where are people willing to vote? I'd rather do shadow if it's possible, I'm probably the safest wagon in terms of information and for the sake of the town, but Maria looks plausible too.

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1188 (isolation #30) » Sun Sep 11, 2016 3:28 pm

VOTE: Shadow_Step

I'm still completely serious when I say that I should be vigged if not policied. My slot's a detriment to town and I don't think I'm a strong enough player to make it useful, I didn't read the game before replacing in and if I did I probably wouldn't have joined this.

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1189 (isolation #31) » Sun Sep 11, 2016 3:30 pm

In post 1185, gigabyteTroubadour wrote:Even if I vote myself, I'll be at L-2 and every other slot has indicated that they think I'm town. So unless two other people are willing to policy lynch me, I can't see how I get lynched today. I'll hope for a vig.

Wait actually this is kind of not true, shadow said he'd lynch me

But then who hammers?

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1192 (isolation #32) » Sun Sep 11, 2016 3:35 pm

In post 1190, MariaR wrote:Why do you want to be lynched so badly Giga when you're obv town what the fk can be so bad you want to lynch yourself

Transcend's mason fakeclaim pretty much made this town collapse on itself, and he dug himself a massive hole that i don't think anyone could get out of. i think that my townflip and me saying that this town hasn't sorted the slots it needs to would help the gamestate, especially because i keep saying that you and kraska should be put on the back burner D2 if I'm dead. Do you disagree...?

maria i don't think your lynch does the same thing

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1194 (isolation #33) » Sun Sep 11, 2016 3:38 pm

I'll just follow wherever the momentum goes at this point. If IaI comes back and votes you or Elyse does then I will too.

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1202 (isolation #34) » Sun Sep 11, 2016 3:51 pm

btw i'm a she/they

shadow and gerry are both good imo, i'm still up to policy myself too but it's a last resort

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1204 (isolation #35) » Sun Sep 11, 2016 3:53 pm

VOTE: gerryoat

something something misspelling names = scum

gigabyteTroubadour · Sun Sep 11, 2016 11:22 pm

In post 1311, Nero Cain wrote:Kinda think Titus is playing to her scum meta.

ok so

i hate to meta someone playing under an alt because that's bad sportsmanship

but like i instinctively townread titus for absolutely zero reason almost every game i read her in. kraska can vouch for this because we talked about it in our hydra pt when that was a thing.

So what exactly makes you think this?

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1346 (isolation #37) » Mon Sep 12, 2016 4:20 am

VOTE: MariaR

L-2

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1389 (isolation #38) » Mon Sep 12, 2016 7:28 am

In post 1355, kraska77 wrote:GIGA, TALK TO ME
Blitz is scum, shadow is town
Why do you disagree with this
Especially shadow...I thought you of all people here would see this given that we just finished a game with him
Also I can explain why blitz is scum but why aren't you even considering that....

(I'm replying to thor later)

aaaaah ok

I have no clue what to think of Blitz... Like I put her as a townlean but I have nothing to really make me feel GOOD about that read but it's there.

Shadow weirds me out this game. I feel like, yeah, he pissed people off with his Maria read but he DID things with it, this shadow seems to just park a vote on someone and calls it pressure. Karnos and gerry are both slots that Shadow "pressured" but there really isn't anything to pull a read on them from.

Please talk about Blitz though... i mean for tomorrow but still

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1394 (isolation #39) » Mon Sep 12, 2016 7:31 am

kraska77 wrote:unvote first then we talk

I'm probably not going to, maybe I'd vote for Shadow but that's it... I dislike the Karnos wagon mostly because of an ongoing game, so I can't really talk about it.

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1398 (isolation #40) » Mon Sep 12, 2016 7:35 am

Thanks kankles

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1415 (isolation #41) » Mon Sep 12, 2016 8:15 am

In post 1412, MariaR wrote:Whatever this wasn't fun you didn't even let me explain myself fuck this

^

karnos is now a lot scummier to me, that was a terrible hammer

gigabyteTroubadour · Wed Sep 14, 2016 10:43 am

In post 1348, JarJarDrinks wrote:Agree w/ IAI's reasoning about scum-giga/town-maria being unlikely so prob wont pursue this (until maria flips scum @ least)

Jarjar, what's your read on me now? What karnos posts where "too ballsy" for scum to make?

In post 755, gerryoat wrote:god, i hate day 1 in forum mafia. it's such a clusterfuck. And I can never get reads until one person is lynched. Someone mentor me in better day 1s as town and what to look for.

People have died. Where is your head at now?

In post 1210, Shadow_step wrote:Their lurking hasn't got much do with it, I've explained my Gerry read while karnos I just wanted more pressure on that slot to sort him out.

How did your D1 pressure help you sort Karnos? Where is he in your reads?

gigabyteTroubadour · Wed Sep 14, 2016 11:05 am

I was never hard-townreading her, Kraska and Thor are my hard-townreads. I townread Maria's early gameplay for reasons I felt were tin-foily, but her later play made that read plummet. By the time I voted at her she was at hard null and I was happy to compromise on her.

gigabyteTroubadour · Wed Sep 14, 2016 11:27 am

In post 1431, Nero Cain wrote:
vote:Shadow

this is who we should have lynched yesterday. Wouldn't surprise me if Maria was flash wagoned to save him.

I'm debating between Karnos and Shadow. Do you think they could be partners? I really hated Karnos's hammer and that readlist and I instinctively scumread Shadow's playstyle so it's a bit of a tough decision.

Also wouldn't that imply Michel/Shadow as a pairing...? Iirc Michel was the one who jumpstarted the Maria wagon after mine dismantled.

gigabyteTroubadour · Wed Sep 14, 2016 11:31 am

In post 1435, Nero Cain wrote:I think Michel might just be derp town here. I think both Karnos and Shadow are scummy and I don't think they can't be a team.

Then we're likely viewing the game the same way here. I want to talk to Shadow and Karnos a little before voting.

gigabyteTroubadour · Wed Sep 14, 2016 11:36 am

That's true.

VOTE: Shadow_Step

gigabyteTroubadour · Wed Sep 14, 2016 11:43 am

You're trying to get him to claim...?

gigabyteTroubadour · Wed Sep 14, 2016 11:51 am

In post 1444, kraska77 wrote:Dear giga
Pls stop pretending u didn't play that game with me where shadow was being an aggro alien lurker that no one townread...just like here
Move ur vote

Yes, but I feel like he isn't doing as much here as he was there. In retrospect I liked his way of interacting with Maria that game, I'm not really seeing anything like that here, look at the questions I ask him. Thor voting the same way also looks good to me, I know he's had more (I think) experience with him.

Blitz is a good vote though.

gigabyteTroubadour · Wed Sep 14, 2016 11:53 am

In post 1447, Nero Cain wrote:no no no. In that open game that you are reffering to both you and Shadow are doing way more scumhunting.

Kraska wasn't really scumhunting there though? Like she had a good perspective of the game (she scumread Zach...) and all but she was getting scumread FOR not doing much... To me she was obvtown bc of her associations and no one was really bothering to look into that, but still...

gigabyteTroubadour · Wed Sep 14, 2016 12:02 pm

Why not Blitz though...? I'm endorsing votes on all three of them.

gigabyteTroubadour · Wed Sep 14, 2016 12:06 pm

VOTE: Blitzkrieg

there are enough votes on shadow for now. Kraska, are you nullreading Thor or...? He seems pretty town to me, his vote park on Maria was a little weird but I think his posts and reads are pretty good.

gigabyteTroubadour · Wed Sep 14, 2016 12:07 pm

I'll look into it more and explain my POV when I have a computer. Can't ISO dive on a phone.

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1462 (isolation #53) » Wed Sep 14, 2016 2:27 pm

ever walk away from a game for 2 hours and then realize u miss something really obvious

VOTE: Shadow_Step

me rn

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1463 (isolation #54) » Wed Sep 14, 2016 2:27 pm

that's

L-2

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1491 (isolation #55) » Thu Sep 15, 2016 2:06 am

In post 1485, kraska77 wrote:
In post 1462, gigabyteTroubadour wrote:ever walk away from a game for 2 hours and then realize u miss something really obvious
What epiphany did you get

nero should i tell kraska and michel what's going on or do u think elyse will catch on and l-1 shadow...?

(maybe i'm utterly wrong but i think i get what's happening)

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1518 (isolation #56) » Thu Sep 15, 2016 4:17 am

In post 1516, Shadow_step wrote:@Giga we are on day 2 and your best reason to vote me is playstyle?

no

there are underlying reasons i can't discuss at the second without hurting town

there was a reason i moved to blitz and then BACK to you

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1537 (isolation #57) » Thu Sep 15, 2016 7:16 am

investigating me would have been a scumclaim anyway. never investigate claimed millers/ascetics because you're more likely to waste your investigation and learn nothing. there was something on MD about that that i read a while back

Nero, from that, I have to wonder if you are ...getting something...?

VOTE: Blitz

L-3

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1546 (isolation #58) » Thu Sep 15, 2016 8:42 am

In post 1542, Nero Cain wrote:
In post 1539, Blitzkrieg wrote:Giga's still scum guys. He's hopping on whatever the cool wagon is. There were like 5 different wagons in response to the giga slot. They are scum.
Giga was voting Shadow 'cause
she thought I had a night action on him
, atleast I think that's what she thinks. So no, she's not really voting the popular wagons as you claim. I think this is scum Titus not trying to game solve and then trying to write off her wagonwith something that sounds scummy but doesn't mesh with reality.

vote:Blitz

oh... yeah it's this

Why do you think Shadow's claim is fake? I think it makes sense from a set-up spec perspective.

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1551 (isolation #59) » Thu Sep 15, 2016 8:55 am

Vanilla Cop isn't too useful as an investigative for town anyway, I think Shadow used it in the best way possible (verify claims).

Shadow, do you still mind answering my questions?

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1576 (isolation #60) » Fri Sep 16, 2016 2:51 am

Only thing that makes me feel conflicted about the case vs. Shadow is that Elyse is literally the TOWNIEST option for a town!Vanilla cop to pick. Scum would rather investigate someone to learn something new about them, while the best use for a town vanilla cop is to confirm what's already known. So, there is 0 scum motivation to investigating Elyse. I'm not objecting to the belief it's a suboptimal investigation (Gerry imo would have been the best choice, especially bc Shadow was scumreading Gerry for softing Vig), but it's the last choice Mafia would make.

It being the towniest choice, however, doesn't mean it's true. But what compels scum!Shadow to lie about his target if it risks his credibility? We lost our tracker, and Tracker+Watcher is a very unlikely combination of PRs for town, so for now I'm going to believe his claim and target because lying to hurt your credibility doesn't seem logical. I still think that Tracker/VCop/Ascetic is lacking investigative power and something seems strange about the set-up, even if we have two investigative roles.

Let's not get caught up in the idea that sub-optimal play or being unable to keep facts straight makes someone confirmed scum and save Shadow for later. That's my 2 cents at the moment.

The Slayer's Gambit thing and the difference in Shadow's approach this game isn't making me feel super good about giving him a townread, so I'd rather look into, say, Kar-Keys or Blitz for today.

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1577 (isolation #61) » Fri Sep 16, 2016 2:56 am

btw shadow you never answered my questions

what DID you learn from trying out slayer's gambit? can you cite quotes where you tried to act scummier and explain why?

Also, what have you learned fron your D1 pressure on Gerry bc I didn't really see much pressure.

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1579 (isolation #62) » Fri Sep 16, 2016 3:04 am

^^ that p much

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1584 (isolation #63) » Fri Sep 16, 2016 3:42 am

In post 1580, JarJarDrinks wrote:Confused on why you think that if Shadow is scum, he actually investigated Elyse. Why wouldn't he just lie?

It doesn't make sense to lie if it makes you look worse because your actions don't match your thought process.

Jarjar, what about Gerry?

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1597 (isolation #64) » Fri Sep 16, 2016 7:33 am

In post 1588, Blitzkrieg wrote:Might as well be a neon sign scum aren't bussing and Giga is scum.

The IaI kill makes zero sense if this is the argument you want to push against me. IaI was probably the most important person who pushed AGAINST the Maria/Me scumreads. If either me or Maria were scum, he'd have to be kept alive to make sure my lynch can't go through. But BOTH of the people who died were pushing against my lynch.. If my ""partners"" refuse to bus me, then why aren't the people pushing me/who pushed me D1 dying?

The Shadow push is well intentioned but it's a better discussion for a later time because I still think his choice of action makes sense, and having a town ascetic to me implies that there are multiple investigative roles that may work against each other... (Vanilla cop gets guilties on trackers, right...?)

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1607 (isolation #65) » Fri Sep 16, 2016 7:50 am

I like my vote but I think we're going a little fast. That could just be me getting used to the shorter deadlines though.

Shadow, I'm really liking Jarjar for town. Why are you scumreading him?

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1609 (isolation #66) » Fri Sep 16, 2016 8:12 am

Hm, interesting... I felt his read progression was really natural but I will definitely reevaluate.

atm this is what my head looks like:

Town: {Kraska, Thor, Nero, JJD, Michel}

??? i can't sort these people: {Elyse (I scumread her play but the way her wagon developed felt like another scumread of mine from another game so?? might be confbiasing), Shadow_Step (not entirely fond of approach towards the game but claim seems town), gerryoat (unreadable)}

Scum: {Karnos, Blitz}

so with only 2 scumreads, I am very likely townreading scum (unless it's a karnos/blitz/gerry team or smth). i haven't had any time irl to really re-read and take notes like i like to but i definitely am going to have to take a second look at everyone

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1613 (isolation #67) » Fri Sep 16, 2016 9:19 am

What do you mean "coerced"? If you think Kraska suggesting Shadow to do that is scummy, why are you supporting the wagon...?

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1616 (isolation #68) » Fri Sep 16, 2016 9:24 am

ooooh. ok that makes sense lol

i was picturing kraska holding shadow at gunpoint and demanding him to hammer and it felt rly weird... kraska would never

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1619 (isolation #69) » Fri Sep 16, 2016 9:50 am

kraska i have this nagging feeling gerry is being/was coached

thoughts

something feels unnatural about him but i'm not good at tone reads in online mafia

@Gerry, like together or what

gigabyteTroubadour · Fri Sep 16, 2016 10:01 am

I can't decide honestly. I guess it's more likely that 2/3 of the scumteam ISN'T going to vote one after the other, but I don't think I can get lynched without Gerry's vote. The interaction is just weird, and I'm not sure what the strategy of any of the people I am scumreading is. Does scum!Blitz actually WANT me lynched (Meaning that Gerry is likely town)? Or is scum!Blitz just trying to make me a counterwagon that never gets traction (meaning that blitz and gerry could viably be partners distancing)?

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1627 (isolation #71) » Fri Sep 16, 2016 4:14 pm

gerry are elyse and i partners in your opinion or individual scumreads

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1643 (isolation #72) » Sat Sep 17, 2016 4:26 am

The Karnos lynch is the only one I like from those.

Michel and Blitz (and anyone scumreading me for that matter), what scumteam with me in it kills IaI? Especially because Blitz believes that my ""partners"" refuse to bus me, I don't really understand the benefit of picking a nightkill that makes it easier for me to get lynched. Is there someone else in a theoretical team with me that's worth more than me, or a more nuanced reason to kill IaI that I'm not getting?

Also, for that matter, the scum!Me / town!Maria dynamic still isn't making much sense to me. Maria and Transcend are friends and already know each other well, so why does Transcend need ""towncred"" from Maria? The two of them townread each other anyway and can read each other well. The purpose of the mason fakeclaim was to defend Maria from getting lynched and I think that's pretty clear. Transcend has nothing to gain from it, and the fact that he was more scared of being blacklisted than losing the benefits of the mason fakeclaim is practically a neon sign saying "I'M TOWN WHO WANTED TO SAVE MY TOWNREAD, NOT REALLY INTERESTED IN COASTING THROUGH THE GAME AS 'CONFIRMED TOWN'."

In other news, I'm happy with a Blitz lynch despite the claim. I think blitz's tunnel on me is contrived, I would have expected someone who scumread Maria and I as a team to reevaluate their read on me after Maria flips town. If, say, Elyse and/or Michel were to continue pushing on me, I could believe that it came from town because they have indicated that they scumread me individually. Blitz looks more like she's forming her reads around the fact she's been pushing for my lynch (the gerry and karnos townreads seem awfully convenient and baseless), which I don't really see as a town thing to do. Her claim also looks pretty fake, the lack of claiming a target looks like she doesn't want to be put under the same scrutiny Shadow was after he claimed.

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1656 (isolation #73) » Sun Sep 18, 2016 3:58 am

Thor, why do you like Blitz's claim better than Shadow's? Or am I misreading your posts

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1666 (isolation #74) » Sun Sep 18, 2016 6:19 am

In post 1663, kraska77 wrote:Karnos wanna declare hammer intent on blitz?

I'd rather have Thor hammer. If he needs a case, then I'll explain mine, but I think it would be better to explain to people off the wagon why this is the lynch for today tomorrow.

Shadow, JJD is not only very likely town, if people agreed with your case against him they'd speak up about it at this point.

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1668 (isolation #75) » Sun Sep 18, 2016 6:35 am

In post 1667, kraska77 wrote:For starters, everyone voting blitz right now is town
Wagon is stalling because scum are trying to derail

^ that was the best way to word it, the way i was going to say it risked this town's unity

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1670 (isolation #76) » Sun Sep 18, 2016 6:50 am

In post 1669, Shadow_step wrote:
In post 1666, gigabyteTroubadour wrote:
In post 1663, kraska77 wrote:Karnos wanna declare hammer intent on blitz?
I'd rather have Thor hammer. If he needs a case, then I'll explain mine, but I think it would be better to explain to people off the wagon why this is the lynch for today tomorrow.

Shadow, JJD is not only very likely town, if people agreed with your case against him they'd speak up about it at this point.
Yeah the same way my case against scum Maria was ignored in 649 :/

JJD isn't as overtly scummy as Maria was in that game, Maria was only townread because everyone thought she was a newbie

but tbh keep pushing him, it makes me feel good about town!you

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1673 (isolation #77) » Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:02 am

quick questions:

1. Why does a team with JJD kill IAI?
2. Who makes sense as a team with JJD?

because atm the IaI kill really looks like a kill someone who isn't voting Blitz right now would do.

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1675 (isolation #78) » Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:16 am

Frame kills are incredibly unlikely, but I guess picking a kill that frames you is plausible, considering that you were one of the lynches on the table at the beginning of the day. I really think it's more of a case of IaI being an integral part of the town if his townreads are correct, though. Is there anything in IaI's ISO that suggests he has a PR?

I did forget about JJD's townread of Gerry... His reasoning at least makes sense, but...

JarJar, do you still townread Gerry? Let's talk a bit more about that read.

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1676 (isolation #79) » Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:26 am

Thor, can you weigh in on the Blitz lynch? That's pretty much what I'm waiting for.

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1678 (isolation #80) » Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:50 am

I wasn't talking about whoever you were voting – you seem to believe that Nero should find Shadow's claim more suspicious than Blitz's when I believe the opposite is true.

Blitz is in fact a Titus alt. If that makes you less inclined to hammer, then I think Karnos is a perfectly fine alternative. We can have Shadow investigate Blitz and have Blitz protect Shadow to confirm the doctor claim if we go that route. I am very confident (like an 8 out of 10 in confidence) that the scumteam is Blitz/Karnos/Gerry, so really the order they are lynched isn't an issue, but I would personally want to lynch the strongest player of that team first.

Case incoming, I need to get on a computer for this.

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1679 (isolation #81) » Sun Sep 18, 2016 8:52 am

In post 1061, gigabyteTroubadour wrote:I think that this town was too focused on the Transcend/Maria dynamic (which I believe is most likely T+T) and neglected to pressure some of the lurkier and scummier slots. It's obviously too late to do any of that, so if I end up getting lynched today, all I ask is that you put Maria and Kraska on the back burner for now and try to focus more on {Elyse, Shadow, Gerry, Karnos} because me having nullreads at EoD1 and page 43 is awful and absolutely unacceptable.

When I entered the game, the first thing I noticed is that the town was divided and focusing on lynching town. Kraska, Maria, and I were all scumread by most players, yet from my POV, that's two confirmed townies (now at least) and my strongest townread. Thus, my instinctual solution to this issue is to form a townbloc, and if that doesn't work, lynch myself or Maria in hopes of getting the town to pay attention elsewhere.

In post 1126, chilledtea wrote:Elyse (L-3) :
kraska77, I Am Innocent, gigabyteTroubadour
, gerryoat.

This is the formation of one. IaI and Kraska were players that I felt had the most accurate view of the gamestate upon me replacing in, so getting them to work together despite the fact that IaI scumread Kraska was my goal. Ignore Gerry for now. If there's daytalk, he probably was told to vote there to discredit the wagon. And if not, that's probably what he planned to do anyway as scum.

Let's also take a look at a more relevant votecount:

In post 1652, chilledtea wrote:Blitzkrieg (L-1) : kraska77, JarJarDrinks, gigabyteTroubadour, Nero Cain, Elyse.

Seeing a wagon like this was probably impossible while Transcend was still in the game. JJD, Elyse, and Nero scumread Kraska and myself initially, and Kraska and I scumread Elyse, but now we're working together. And what is the cause of that? Me, of course, trying to get this town to stop scumreading the bait and focus on the slots that were coasting yesterday! By replacing in, I've effectively changed the momentum of this game and now we're lynching scum, because otherwise I would think that today's lynch would either be Transcend (if I didn't replace in), Maria (if Transcend or I were lynched yesterday), or Kraska, all mislynches.

Anyway, what seems to be happening is that Blitz's choice in scumreads are conveniently trying to disrupt attempts at town working together. Since I now know for sure that both of the mason fakeclaimers are town, disrupting and discrediting the Maria/Transcend bloc (even if they end up being wrong about their reads) is critical for any possible scumteam fmpov. If there was no valid push on them early D1 and if other town slots like Kraska, IaI, and yourself started townreading them, then eventually town unifies and the scumteam will be caught much easier. Thankfully for the scumteam, Maria and Transcend are not the strongest players and throwing shade at them is relatively easy. Hell, I dropped my townlean on Maria pretty quickly and I know Kraska did too.

Now that it's D2, we lost IaI. Why does a team with Blitzkrieg in it want to kill IaI, especially because he was townreading her? The answer is quite simple: IaI was against both the Maria lynch (pushing a counter-wagon at least) and my own at the end of D1, and was also part of the townbloc I was attempting to form. Him having the right opinion of the gamestate (in terms of townreads, which I think are more important), practically being unlynchable, and being a stronger player than Kraska made him a priority night kill. I'm still lynchable, so if the scumteam's goal is to dismantle the townbloc, then it's easier for me to be lynched and a stronger player be nightkilled.

Essentially, my argument is that Blitz is scum because she noticed that I formed a relatively powerful townbloc and my lynch is a last-ditch effort to stop it. The IaI kill's purpose was to weaken that townbloc, because if she had killed, say, you, then this townbloc would have formed much faster and probably have been a bigger threat. I wanted you to weigh in on the Elyse wagon more directly yesterday because I townread you pretty strongly and thus would want you in this bloc. Now, I'm trying again with the Blitz wagon.

If you'd rather lynch Karnos, then I have no issue with that because the result will effectively be the same. Do you disagree with the scumteam of Blitz/Gerry/Karnos? If so, I would like to know where your head is.

gigabyteTroubadour · Sun Sep 18, 2016 10:28 am

In post 1684, Nero Cain wrote:a Thor/Blitz team would mean the last scum is in

Shadow_step
gerryoat
karnos
MichelSableheart

this i agree with

but gerry/karnos/blitz seems to make more sense to me at least. Talk to me about scum!Thor?

gigabyteTroubadour · Sun Sep 18, 2016 10:34 am

In post 1680, MichelSableheart wrote:Well, who would be the alternative for the scum nightkill? Was there anyone who was both attacking you and generally considered town? As far as I can see, your scumteam would have to give up significant mislynch potential if they wanted to take out one of your attackers.

Probably Elyse or you in all honesty, I don't really see the push against you as a viable one (making you difficult to lynch), and Elyse is now well-townread and I honestly wasn't expecting her to join the wagon I was pushing.

The IaI kill just seems completely illogical fmpov since I was intending to implicitly push a townbloc with him, but it's not like that was completely obvious until I outright said it.

On Thor, the fact that he's constantly pushing vanity wagons that are still viable do worry me, but I was strongly townreading his D1. I like your points too. Idk, I think it might actually be a good push but I want him to respond to my case vs. Blitz. Before being sure about that.

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1840 (isolation #84) » Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:11 am

VOTE: Karnos

life is getting a bit out of control for me. if titus can't get lynched, then this is the alternative that will likely flip scum. if the vig, if there is one, does not shoot me tomorrow (they didn't shoot me when i requested to be shot yesterday so i doubt there is one), i'll respond to whatever points/discussion i need to tomorrow (in-game). don't dismiss what titus says if she is town, I agree with her speculation in that there are likely more prs, probably not a vig but I shouldn't be counted as a pr, and 4 prs is not unreasonable.

i'll formally announce a v/la once i have a better idea of how much time i'll have in the future, sorry.

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1864 (isolation #85) » Tue Sep 20, 2016 8:52 am

VOTE: Titus

i still don't get how this works without a hammerer, but sure, i'm desperate to not get a no lynch so the description is apt

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1866 (isolation #86) » Tue Sep 20, 2016 8:59 am

kankles tomorrow i will write a random questionnaire for you to fill out

seems to be the easiest way to read you

gigabyteTroubadour · Tue Sep 20, 2016 10:18 am

kankos, i /agree with 0 caveats. i should have been lynched D1 (or vigged... titus tell your vig to shoot me, i asked them yesterday but they didn't listen

) bc this just means that we learned nothing from the maria lynch, but i really do not care if i die. i'm just not going to vote myself unless it's 8 minutes until the deadline and i either have to wait for someone to hammer a different wagon or hammer myself. i would prefer to not make it to lylo.

confident enough in my bloc of {Kraska, Nero, Jarjar, Elyse, Myself} and my townread on Michel that we can just probably powertown through this game. IaI kill is more likely to come from a team of people outside of that bloc and i really don't have any reason to scumread any of those people besides Elyse (who i am currently starting to townread).

required read for kranos <== even wackier play from town!Transcend, fakeclaims doctor and gets lynched D1 after a counterclaim. mason fakeclaim is small potatoes in anti-townness

also scum!doc doesn't always mean vig or something worth protecting, stuff like watcher/tracker/gunsmith can get false results from a scumdoc.

and to be official

V/LA til Saturday probably, across all games obviously

gigabyteTroubadour · Tue Sep 20, 2016 10:27 pm

In post 1915, Shadow_step wrote:
In post 1906, Nero Cain wrote:but Titus scum=Shadow scum REMEMBER THAT!
Oh I'm sure you'll find a reason to find me scummy no matter what Titus flips.

ok so you won't hammer titus.

would you hammer me if i self-vote

considering a reverse of karnks's offer. if michel takes my place in the bloc, our numbers will be the same as if we lynched someone out of the bloc, so i'm not worried about town not being able to outnumber scum and townbeards. this game is a headache and my mislynch was inevitable from D1 (which i called because at least 1 townie won't know how to change their reads based on current in-game events), so i'd rather just get it out of the way while town still has room to reevaluate.

also hi nero lol

gigabyteTroubadour · Tue Sep 20, 2016 10:36 pm

In post 1919, kraska77 wrote:I still don't think shadow is scum fwiw
Shadow I'd be impressed of you somehow manage to swing a wagon on someone else at this point but I don't think you'll be able to do that. So. What are you waiting for? Hammer Titus ffs

^^

that claim was super townie, scum!Shadow doesn't target Elyse at all and should be paranoid about lying about his target...

if i'm left alive tho i'll defend you. vig should shoot me tonight though bc this town isn't going to cooperate if it's town tunneling on me (i'm pretty sure michel is the only town person gunning for my mislynch tho so there's that).

gigabyteTroubadour · Tue Sep 20, 2016 11:01 pm

ok but what about me

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1958 (isolation #91) » Wed Sep 21, 2016 3:27 am

karnis do you know what sarcasm is

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #1980 (isolation #92) » Fri Sep 23, 2016 5:41 am

damn my set-up spec is good

Pretty sure gunsmith flip means shadow is town, i'll explain when i'm home

prob voting karnos but i don't want a qh

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #2008 (isolation #93) » Fri Sep 23, 2016 7:05 am

just a comment: titus has a well-established meta of never bussing her partners, yet she was doing everything she could to ensure I could get lynched. Why is she attempting to bus this time?

serious posts coming when i come home

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #2014 (isolation #94) » Fri Sep 23, 2016 7:17 am

In post 2009, Nero Cain wrote:at least one of Giga/Shadow is scum.

In post 2012, Nero Cain wrote:he'd be a third investigative. Tracker-gunsmith-vt cop

^this makes sense though

vanilla cop is next to useless and is more like a miller. false results for tracker+gunsmith. ascetic just makes it worse

ascetic also nerfs both of them. i can die btw, I'm not a protective.

Vig/VCop/Tracker/Gunsmith/Ascetic is EXACTLY what I thought the set-up was yesterday.

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #2015 (isolation #95) » Fri Sep 23, 2016 7:17 am

2009 does not make sense btw, misquote

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #2017 (isolation #96) » Fri Sep 23, 2016 7:20 am

nero seems to be under the impression i'm bulletproof ascetic

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #2019 (isolation #97) » Fri Sep 23, 2016 7:24 am

oh

I guess? It's more of a net-negative for us though because usually town ascetics claim D1 and aren't paired with other PRs, so...? It's a free investigation for scum PRs (trackers would get no result anyway, rolecops aren't getting anything useful, etc.) and it's ambiguity for town. But having a lot of investigative power with an ascetic makes sense.

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #2020 (isolation #98) » Fri Sep 23, 2016 7:27 am

In post 2011, Nero Cain wrote:in http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=67071 the scum (Titus included) were bussing the fuck out of one of her scumbuddies. So I think she'll bus if need be or if it helps in the long game.

i don't rly remember street fighter but i don't remember the ranger wagon getting much traction? it was more DISTANCING than BUSSING iirc, i don't think titus was getting out of her tunnel.

gigabyteTroubadour · Post Post #2021 (isolation #99) » Fri Sep 23, 2016 7:28 am

In post 2020, gigabyteTroubadour wrote:i don't think titus was getting out of her tunnel.

^in ref to this game

ebwop

gigabyteTroubadour · Fri Sep 23, 2016 7:39 am

Why are people scumreading Nero Cain again? He and Kraska are like lock-town to me. He also drove the Titus wagon the furthest, so unless Shadow is his partner, him pushing her over Shadow makes him more likely town.

I'm also struggling to find a partner besides Karnos, I think the wagon distribution is more likely 2-off-1-on, if not everyone being off it.

gigabyteTroubadour · Fri Sep 23, 2016 7:52 am

I really disagree with scum!Shadow?? kraska why are we switching opinions on this...

I'm going to review the game today probably but I don't get how Karnos is townier than Shadow.

gigabyteTroubadour · Fri Sep 23, 2016 7:54 am

tomorrow is LYLO though, MYLO if a shot doesn't go through

we should try to lynch scum today

gigabyteTroubadour · Fri Sep 23, 2016 8:33 am

In post 1732, Thor665 wrote:I note that your reasons for IaI dying included "unlynchable - that, in and of itself provides any scum a solid reason to kill IaI no matter who scum is, unless scum is IaI.

Not really... There's a lot of utility in having an unlynchable person who townreads you. Once town starts worrying about why that person is living for a long time,
then
you should be killing off unlynchable people. But for a first nightkill? An IaI kill comes from a team that wants me lynched, I think that's pretty simple.

I also would note, that if I go to your case and replace Blitz's name with Gerry, or Thor, or Karnos, et al - it doesn't actually change the validity of the case.
Do you disagree with the above?
If so - could you replace the name with Karnos and explain how the case doesn't work?

Of course I disagree... I don't get how you came to the conclusion that you and Gerry were actively trying to dismantle the bloc I've formed. Gerry has done nothing but sheep, and you townread me. Karnos I can see, but I felt at the time of writing that case that A: Titus was pushing the fact that both Maria and I were scum together more (i.e., that she believed that we both needed to die) while Karnos was more interested in just getting me lynched "to get information about Maria", and B: I think dismantling a townbloc is an objective scum!Titus would think of before scum!Karnos. It's not so much that it doesn't work with Karnos as it is it makes more sense with Titus. I'll admit it's not a strong case but I really did not have a reason to townread Titus, and the Titus wagon's composition was really good (besides myself, 3 obvtownies and Elyse is a pretty good wagon and I still want that group of people to be a townbloc.).

never got around to responding to this post but what i wrote is exactly what i would have written the day before, verb tense excluded.

so the reads I'm interested in from others (i asked some of these in other posts but i'm just putting them here for easy ref):

Why is Shadow scummier than Karnos?

Is Elyse town? (i admit i'm confbiasing a bit still from D1, but i'm not townreading Elyse as strongly as Nero and Kraska, so if I'm looking for bussers on the wagon, I'm interested in Thor and her)

Why are people scumreading Nero?

If you still scumread me today... Why did Titus and I attempt a double bus?

Also, because the thread got locked before I could respond... The sarcastic post from D1 was "Thanks kankles." Not really sure how that was taken seriously after I started criticizing the hammer, but whatever... let's not make karnos think his case against me holds water

if there's any loose ends i haven't tied please tell me

gigabyteTroubadour · Fri Sep 23, 2016 8:43 am

In post 2041, karnos wrote:
In post 2029, gigabyteTroubadour wrote: I'm also struggling to find a partner besides Karnos, I think the wagon distribution is more likely 2-off-1-on, if not everyone being off it.
Are you saying there are 4 scum? Assuming 3 scum, as normal for this size game, there could have been 1-off 1-on. I don't know why you would suggest there are 4 scum, it would be very abnormal for a game of this size.

i meant titus being on me as one of the "off"s

gigabyteTroubadour · Fri Sep 23, 2016 8:44 am

we'd lose today with four group scum, so lol

gigabyteTroubadour · Fri Sep 23, 2016 8:48 am

In post 2043, gigabyteTroubadour wrote:we'd lose today with four group scum, so lol

this is a lie, we lynched scum yesterday

sorry for the spam but i don't want to be called out for that

gigabyteTroubadour · Fri Sep 23, 2016 3:07 pm

In post 2061, Nero Cain wrote:also your d1 readlist seemed pretty
IIOA
y

iioa is the wrong word, there's no information in the first place

Thinking that Soraya Montenegro suits me more for my avatar (while also thinking she was crying? no, she was judging...) than laborwave Rosa Luxembourg is not only

wrong

but not even a reason to scumread someone.

To me, there's something really deceptive about giving a readlist with low-information and not doing it in a Ranger-style or something. When you look at the post in his ISO, it looks like he's providing reasons for his reads, but in reality you get a bunch of nullreads and filler.

The point of low-information readlists is to provide a

what

and create a discussion topic. If you say, show you have a controversial read, you give people the opportunity to press upon the read and ask you about it. That's not at all what I saw from Karnos's readlist. Instead, it tried to look like a high-information readlist and answer both a

what

question and a

how

question, except without actually doing it. I know Karnos isn't a complete newbie and if he were to write a readlist, I would have expect him to not give a bunch of nullreads with nonexistent reasoning EOD1... Again, it looks like fluff to make an ISO look better.

like literally as soon as i saw that post (and thanked karnos for the hammer (sarcastically

)) karnos shot down from a nullread into scum territory in my reads.

Only thing that's stopping me from voting is that Gerry flipped town... Post-Titus lynch, he was my top scumread and Karnos made sense as a partner to both him and Titus. Now, I'm pretty stumped because I wasn't feeling scum!Karnos as much as I was feeling scum!Gerry.

At least the vig made a decent shot. I feel pretty strongly about this being a vig btw because I would think a serial killer would have actually killed me instead. It might seem egotistical, but I think that I'm a somewhat believable vig-shot (my slot is scummy enough, at least to karnos... plus, i was low-key baiting it yesterday, and high-key D1) and Gerry could have easily been lynched. I can't really think of any smarter serial killer targets. Otoh, a vig just has to shoot scumreads, which is what Gerry was.

gigabyteTroubadour · Sat Sep 24, 2016 8:14 am

I'd vote Karnos but idk if it's time to L-1 anyone, since he's self-voting and all...

Is everyone just unanimously agreeing that Karnos is probably not town? I'm having a hard time finding any of his posts particularly town when I have reasons to at least feel like everyone else could be town.

I would like to know what Michel thinks before a lynch, anyway, since he is reconsidering his reads post-flip (note that Karnos and Titus both have not...).

gigabyteTroubadour · Sat Sep 24, 2016 8:52 am

With popcorn, the scummiest person starts, yeah? In that case, Karnos absolutely

should

be the one to start it because I still think Shadow's role is a town role in this set-up. I am also still townreading Shadow's play at the very least, too...

kraska, you're not supposed to massclaim at lylo/mylo because then that lets scum counterclaim and increase their chances at winning signficiantly

gigabyteTroubadour · Sat Sep 24, 2016 8:55 am

In post 2084, kraska77 wrote:i dont think tom will be lylo if we lynch karnos today :p

usually with things like this though you have to account for the worst case scenario

but i'm guessing everyone agrees with karnos going first?

gigabyteTroubadour · Sat Sep 24, 2016 9:05 am

In post 2086, Thor665 wrote:@Giga - Scummiest should go first, but enough people have issues with Shadow that him going first makes sense to me, and if you think he's town then he'll theoretically still pick the 'scummiest' to claim next regardless - so I don't get the issue if he starts or if Karnos starts. Unless you think his scummiest read isn't Karnos.

i guess that's true, there wouldn't be much of a difference. especially considering shadow already claimed, so?

is it normal for people to claim again in massclaim? i just realized that this is my first closed game onsite so this is a bit different for me

gigabyteTroubadour · Sat Sep 24, 2016 9:20 am

In post 2089, kraska77 wrote:whats the difference between close and open games? i still dont know

open games = everyone knows what roles everyone can possibly get and exactly how they are distributed (e.g., the set-up says that there's one doctor and it's always town)

semi-open games = there's a pool of roles that everyone can get but it's not clear how they are distributed (Pick Your Power X/Y is an example since a doctor can be town or mafia and players pick the roles on their own, as are newbie games since no one knows the set-up for certain until claims start happening)

closed games = the players are told nothing about what the roles are, meaning that set-up spec is the only way to figure that out if a player thinks it's necessary

i've never had to do a massclaim in the open games i've played so it's kind of a new thing to do for me

gigabyteTroubadour · Sat Sep 24, 2016 10:37 am

In post 2091, Elyse wrote:I think we should massclaim tomorrow and let the vig shoot again. Don't think there's an SK

i agree on the lack of a sk... however:

The vig should still claim today though unless they shot IaI or Titus N1. If they are one-shot, then we need to know because tomorrow will be MYLO if we mislynch. If they're not one-shot, then they probably hit scum N1 and that information is pretty important.

Why are you anti-massclaim?

gigabyteTroubadour · Sat Sep 24, 2016 11:35 am

can't they just shoot tonight still? confused

gigabyteTroubadour · Sat Sep 24, 2016 11:52 am

ohhh

i was so caught up in thinking scum have a doc... rb seemed like overkill

gigabyteTroubadour · Sat Sep 24, 2016 7:57 pm

so i take it you are not in favor of a massclaim

pedit: @karnos ^

@èlysè: i kind of think that the lack of a vig shot N1 means that that person might have shot scum then which is why i'm pro-massclaim... kraska not cc'ing shadow's result means she's not the vig, yet I think that she's the only person who would have vigged titus N1, so the vig probably shot scum that hasn't been flipped yet. also rb+doc+goon is too strong of a scumteam imo, so there's probably no rb... but then we don't know there's a doc for sure

rb is kind of unlikely tho considering how the investigatives already work against each other and there's even NU...

gigabyteTroubadour · Sat Sep 24, 2016 7:59 pm

oops sorry

who are you popcorning too?

gigabyteTroubadour · Sat Sep 24, 2016 8:00 pm

*to

ebwop

gigabyteTroubadour · Sun Sep 25, 2016 4:56 am

In post 2113, Nero Cain wrote:Giga, if you think there are 5 town prs why can't there be a scum doc + RB?

Tracker+Doc doesn't need a rb in matrix 6, tracker is too situationally helpful to need it.

Here, most of the town PRs work AGAINST each other, so i'd argue that it's a weaker set-up than the basic matrix6 parallel.

gigabyteTroubadour · Sun Sep 25, 2016 4:58 am

Thor kind of perplexes me, @Shadow... I'm not really sure what to make of him here since he's been generally pushing vanity wagons. My tr's on Kraska, Nero, and Michel are much stronger, and since the list of suspects is shrinking, he could viably be scum.

gigabyteTroubadour · Sun Sep 25, 2016 5:28 am

In post 2117, kraska77 wrote:Giga don't you find it weird that shadow checked me?

a little

who would have been a better target? gerry?

gigabyteTroubadour · Sun Sep 25, 2016 5:44 am

i feel like the facts are pointing to shadow being town... why am i the only one that thinks this...?

btw the only way i will condone myself dying from something town's in control of this game from now on is if i get vigged post scum!Shadow scum flip so

Shadow, why Kraska?

gigabyteTroubadour · Sun Sep 25, 2016 5:49 am

In post 2121, gigabyteTroubadour wrote:Shadow, why Kraska?

gigabyteTroubadour · Sun Sep 25, 2016 5:52 am

^that's town..... imo

gigabyteTroubadour · Sun Sep 25, 2016 7:53 am

In post 2128, Thor665 wrote:I will admit - presumed Mafia Doc + presumed Town Vig + Gunsmith + Presumed Town Vanilla Cop seems like kind of a giant finger to the Gunsmith role, as he is built in for at least 2 potential false results.
But that might then justify the extra investigative.
But that's a matter of opinion, not fact.

Don't forget the tracker.

Alone, I think Tracker+Gunsmith is a lot of investigative power for the town, so it makes sense to have 3 roles that "weaken" both of them. Arguably, if people believe that the Ascetic is town, the fact that you can't get results from them (well, me) doesn't matter in the long run, and the Vanilla Cop has investigative power on its own so it's not an absolutely terrible NU.

I've been trying to think though... We've had a goon flip, and we're presuming that there's a doctor. What about an encryptor? This might seem like irrelevant set-up spec since knowing whether or not the scumteam has daytalk isn't super important for us, but remember that we know for sure that Kraska and Elyse are both vanilla (unless one of them are scum with shadow). So, if the scumteam is in fact a Goon/Encryptor/Doctor, then Kraska and Elyse are pretty close to confirmed town... There's always the possibility of a Encryptor Doctor but I feel that's too much power for one slot.

gigabyteTroubadour · Sun Sep 25, 2016 11:17 am

i thought you don't skip over people in mass claims...? i thought that's what was going down

confused yet again

gigabyteTroubadour · Sun Sep 25, 2016 11:39 am

i kind of want the vig to claim if he shot someone other than Titus N1, because chances are he has a confirmed guilty on someone (if his kill was blocked, it was most likely a mafia doctor protecting a partner)

if they're one-shot i don't see a point in hiding, plus we know for a fact that tomorrow is MYLO if we ml.

if they're 2 shot or more though i guess i can see the merit in not claiming if he didn't shoot N1.

so that's why i didn't oppose a massclaim. it would also help coordinate shadow's night actions because i think he's likely making it to XYLO, especially with so many VT claims I think that Shadow will actually get a guilty on someone

gigabyteTroubadour · Sun Sep 25, 2016 3:03 pm

Michel, since you're reevaluating the game, what are your thoughts on Thor's massclaim?

gigabyteTroubadour · Sun Sep 25, 2016 5:47 pm

i feel like town deserves to know this

i wasn't scumreading karnos D1 because of a game that was ongoing at the time. There, Karnos felt a lot more slimey and manipulative than he is here (where he seems more useless and close-minded), but I can't honestly townread him, so I put him at null. With a lot of obvtown yesterday and karnos's hesitation to join my wagon at first, it made sense that he was a Blitz buddy but I wasn't as sure about him as I was with Gerry (who flipped town). And now that 646 is over, I can't help but acknowledge that Karnos is responding to pressure a lot differently there than he is here. There has to be a reason...

For the record, I think only possible teams are Elyse/Shadow, Thor/Shadow, and Thor/Karnos so? Leaning towards Thor/Karnos atm. Elyse/Karnos is technically possible but very unlikely considering Shadow's result on her... Pretty much ensures that Karnos fakeclaimed vanilla as a Doctor or doctor encryptor or something, which seems unlikely.

Kraska, Nero, and Michel are all super obviously town. I know I'm town for a fact. So PoE dictates that the pool

has

to be out of those four, and Elyse/Thor doesn't feel like SvS for sure. Haven't thought much about Shadow/Karnos but I can't really see it. Thoughts?

karnos

, srs question: you

are

an ISTP right...? like i remember you took the quiz last game but does that personality type suit you in your opinion? this is a very important question in judging your alignment.

gigabyteTroubadour · Sun Sep 25, 2016 6:00 pm

Thor/Shadow's possible. I do have to look back to think about Shadow/Karnos, and that might be difficult because I'm townreading Shadow still.

Honestly I think Shadow/Karnos is the scumteam hurt the most by Titus getting lynched since she's the strongest player out of the three of them (I think? never played vs. scum!shadow as far as i know), so it does make sense that neither of them chose to bus. All of the other teams had at least one busser on it, and I think Thor and Elyse are strong enough players to be able to give up Titus for the team.

I should also note that Thor tends not to bus as scum, so his play D2 does make sense as scum (there was pretty much zero chance of the Titus wagon stopping and he would have taken a lot of heat imo if titus flipped red from the vig shot if we went with no lynch because of the deadline)... Not sure if that eliminates Thor/Karnos as partners now that I think about it, there wasn't that strong of a push for Karnos.

also wb michel!

gigabyteTroubadour · Sun Sep 25, 2016 6:28 pm

In post 2159, Shadow_step wrote:Scum have no protection against a gunsmith getting a guilty

Doctors don't have a gun though, they're a godfather to a gunsmith...

i agree with shadow that nero is unlikely a serial killer because of the gerry kill at least

gigabyteTroubadour · Sun Sep 25, 2016 6:51 pm

I'm trying to find an issue with lynching Shadow but I really cannot think of one. If he's town, then we can be pretty sure that Elyse is town (I can't see the scumteam having both a roleblocker AND a doctor) and we should have a pretty easy MYLO tomorrow.

Plus if we mislynch (and I specifically do mean mislynch) someone other than him today he could fake a guilty in MYLO which would suck.

Also I'm confident enough that Kraska, Michel, and Nero are town and I would prefer not no-lynching in MYLO. Even with one confirmed townie there is no need to eliminate suspects because Nero is likely dying tonight, and if we no-lynch I probably die next so?

gigabyteTroubadour · Sun Sep 25, 2016 7:13 pm

VOTE: Shadow_Step

i guess my set-up spec sucked in the end... tbh i think he's more likely flipping goon/encryptor than vanilla cop, but he could viably be one so idk. There's practically a guilty on him which is good enough for me.

but yeah i can't see an issue with this lynch regardless of the flip. let's not quickhammer though because we need a decent plan for tomorrow in case it's MYLO.

gigabyteTroubadour · Sun Sep 25, 2016 7:34 pm

Because usually a town gunsmith indicates a scum doctor, and I think that the set-up would be extremely scumsided with both a doctor and roleblocker with any amount of shots?

gigabyteTroubadour · Sun Sep 25, 2016 7:42 pm

In post 1812, chilledtea wrote:

Blitzkrieg
(L-1) : kraska77,
JarJarDrinks
, gigabyteTroubadour,
Nero Cain
, Elyse.

gigabyteTroubadour
(L-2) :
Blitzkrieg
,
gerryoat
, MichelSableheart, karnos.

karnos (L-4) : Thor665, Shadow_step.

Not Voting (0) : No one.

From this votecount alone, I can't see why scum!Shadow would want to vote Karnos over Titus if they're scum together. Karnos

could

have been lynched yesterday since I joined the wagon and most people voting for Titus also scumread Blitz, so it's not like he just parked a vanity vote on a partner to distance.

This makes me feel like it's more likely Shadow/{Elyse, Thor} than not.

Shadow, I'm not sure I'm getting your argument. Without a protective role for town, I don't think scum need a roleblocker to counter a tracker or gunsmith... Cop/VT/Goon is considered balanced in Matrix6, and gunsmith and tracker are both weaker than cop.

gigabyteTroubadour · Sun Sep 25, 2016 7:43 pm

oh oops i left myself colored in that vca lmao

nero is colored in though because scum vigs are considered bastard and nero is obvtown enough that i can't even consider the possibility of having a scumvig being the permitted non-normal exception to this set-up

gigabyteTroubadour · Sun Sep 25, 2016 7:49 pm

*also scumread Karnos

EBWOP

gigabyteTroubadour · Sun Sep 25, 2016 8:02 pm

i mean

in Open 649 i was specifically told that if my 1-shot vig shot didn't go through it wouldn't be refunded as per normal guidelines.

i assumed you were asking karnos for some other reason but if it was serious... :/

also shadow no one is ever going to lynch nero... this isn't the kind of guilty you line up the lynches of

gigabyteTroubadour · Mon Sep 26, 2016 2:41 am

In post 2198, karnos wrote:This was pre flip and you were on the wagon too. If you didn't think maria was scum, why the hell were you voting her?

you hammered before she had the chance to claim or give last words?? i'm not the only person on the wagon that thought the hammer was bad, don't single me out just because you are confbiasing on transcend being stupid.

but anyway i don't think you can be scum w/ shadow and no one makes sense as your partner so i guess you're town... which kind of sucks

what do you think of nero's guilty on Shadow anyway? And what are your thoughts on Thor?

karnos wrote:
In post 2065, gigabyteTroubadour wrote: To me, there's something really deceptive about giving a readlist with low-information and not doing it in a Ranger-style or something. When you look at the post in his ISO, it looks like he's providing reasons for his reads, but in reality you get a bunch of nullreads and filler.

The point of low-information readlists is to provide a
what
and create a discussion topic. If you say, show you have a controversial read, you give people the opportunity to press upon the read and ask you about it. That's not at all what I saw from Karnos's readlist. Instead, it tried to look like a high-information readlist and answer both a
what
question and a
how
question, except without actually doing it. I know Karnos isn't a complete newbie and if he were to write a readlist, I would have expect him to not give a bunch of nullreads with nonexistent reasoning EOD1... Again, it looks like fluff to make an ISO look better.
This is scum logic. Attacking my "poor" read list, while other players haven't posted any read lists at all? This is really such BS logic as well, town who don't have 100% solid reads day 1 are attacked. OTOH scum who can safely commit to a few town reads because, DUH, they have perfect knowledge of who is town, are able to post in a way that somehow looks more "town" than the town players because of backwards logic like the above used by giga. Yes, my reads were loaded with "null". Day one, no special knowledge, no secret mason conclave, no innocent villagers, I absolutely won't have any strong reads the vast majority of games. Occasionally there is some crazy slip that makes someone obviously scum, but outside that my reads day one will be pretty flimsy. As well, click my wiki link. Nothings been edited recently. It's a big part of my philosophy that sharing all reads constantly is a net-negative. I play the same way in every game as town. Again you like to use meta when it favors you and ignore it otherwise. I could show you several games where I am reluctant to give detailed reads and I flip as town, and I could also show you a game or two where I gave constant updated reads with details of every player in the game where I flipped as scum. It's vastly easier to make up a solid read list as scum.

multiple players had posted readlists, wth are you on... i mean i agree that it's easier to fake reads as scum, but EoD1 you should have very few nullreads and if you have non-null reads, back them up or don't write anything.

how is my logic backwards though...? and where are you getting the assumption i'm avoiding meta when it doesn't help me?

gigabyteTroubadour · Mon Sep 26, 2016 2:41 am

ok sure it's giga/shadow

bus my partner with me

gigabyteTroubadour · Mon Sep 26, 2016 2:46 am

In post 2206, Shadow_step wrote:Giga, who are you going to lynch after I flip town?

Karnos.

Because then I'd think it's Karnos/Thor because Elyse/Thor or Elyse/Karnos are very unlikely.

gigabyteTroubadour · Mon Sep 26, 2016 2:53 am

Elyse/Karnos is unlikely because there's probably a scum doctor, and for all the claims to work out, Karnos has to be a mafia roleblocker, which doesn't make sense with the set-up.

i'll talk about my michel townread when i have computer access

I am pretty sure that the only way Nero shoots you and fails is for a buddy to protect you. So, I'm pretty sure you're scum.

gigabyteTroubadour · Mon Sep 26, 2016 2:57 am

In post 2208, karnos wrote:I had a strong suspicious of a giga/shadow scum team at the start, and giga repeatedly defended shadow, making me even more confident of it. Then suddenly giga turned on shadow, put him as a major potential scum, and then voted him.

Scum protecting scum, and then realizing it was a losing preposition because after my lynch, I flip town, they both incriminated and lose. So giga decided to switch to a bus strategy

actually this makes no sense

i've been asking for the vig to out because I thought the vig would have a guilty from D1... Scum!me already knows that the guilty is on Shadow, because I'd have to be an ascetic doctor if I were scum with Shadow. So either I'd subscribe to the roleblocker theory my partner is proposing or I would have bussed Shadow D2 because the scumteam already suspected a vig and Shadow would have had to be the target if they shot D1.

gigabyteTroubadour · Mon Sep 26, 2016 3:00 am

scum jk makes as much sense as scum rb, both have guns and can all be caught via gunsmith

gigabyteTroubadour · Mon Sep 26, 2016 3:11 am

i don't know your meta that well, i'm not deliberately ignoring it?? honestly i can't even say i know titus's that well

i mean you bussing partners was brought up in 646 but it wasn't really a critical point or something i saw firsthand so it didn't really cross my mind

why should i be attacking players who don't post readlists again..? you telling me who i ""should"" be suspecting is very reminiscent of 646 btw

karnos wrote:
In post 2211, gigabyteTroubadour wrote:
actually this makes no sense

i've been asking for the vig to out because I thought the vig would have a guilty from D1... Scum!me already knows that the guilty is on Shadow, because I'd have to be an ascetic doctor if I were scum with Shadow. So either I'd subscribe to the roleblocker theory my partner is proposing or I would have bussed Shadow D2 because the scumteam already suspected a vig and Shadow would have had to be the target if they shot D1.
Well yeah, it makes no sense in a world where scum aren't allowed to lie about their role in the thread. Sadly scum are allowed to lie, and it's not as nonsensical as you are trying to make it look.

how does that refute my argument at all...? shadow's role literally does not matter here, and there is very likely a doctor in the scumteam... take out "asectic" from it if it makes you happy, there's no difference in the point

@Shadow, check the page for gunsmith. Only docs and traitors lack guns.

gigabyteTroubadour · Mon Sep 26, 2016 3:15 am

paranoid doctors =/= jailkeepers

the former is told they're a normal doctor and is bastard, latter is considered a different role

gigabyteTroubadour · Mon Sep 26, 2016 3:22 am

???

If a player is clear with their thoughts there's no need for a readlist.... So I have zero issue with ppl who don't post them.

I also don't see detailed readlists in the same plane as ranger style ones. They have completely motivations behind them, both generally pro-town.

so the fact you have to quantify this seems kind of trite.. I'd give your readlist a 2/10 personally though, mostly because i was expecting more reasoning when I looked at the post at a glance and instead got fluff.

i'll ask chilledtea about jailkeepers later <_<

gigabyteTroubadour · Mon Sep 26, 2016 3:23 am

*completely different motivations

gigabyteTroubadour · Mon Sep 26, 2016 3:39 am

"When a Game Moderator uses these roles as sanities, the player receiving the role is usually only told his/her role is Doctor. Sometimes sanity is revealed upon death, but frequently not, leading to ambiguity if a Doctor is killed early in the game."

Sanities are bastard, Shadow, reread the page. Also...

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Jailkeeper

it straight up SAYS what i've been saying...

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Gunsmith

and here note the "all mafia roles (except doctor and traitor)"

You're only arguing this because you know that a "paranoid doctor" is the only way a scumteam without you makes sense at this point (unless one of Thor/Karnos is a 1-Shot Roleblocker or smth)

gigabyteTroubadour · Mon Sep 26, 2016 3:40 am

why would a jailkeeper target town!shadow? rbing nero I can see, but why Shadow?

gigabyteTroubadour · Mon Sep 26, 2016 3:51 am

UNVOTE:

hm...

gigabyteTroubadour · Mon Sep 26, 2016 4:03 am

In post 2256, karnos wrote:
In post 1188, gigabyteTroubadour wrote:VOTE: Shadow_Step

I'm still completely serious when I say that I should be vigged if not policied. My slot's a detriment to town and I don't think I'm a strong enough player to make it useful, I didn't read the game before replacing in and if I did I probably wouldn't have joined this.
It's interesting that this was said on day 1. Do you still agree giga? Do you want to be vig killed tonight, since shadow didn't cop you?

No, because I was a counterwagon pushed by scum and have helped town? To literally everyone else I'm obvious town. Might I ask why you think I was double bussing with Titus?

gigabyteTroubadour · Mon Sep 26, 2016 4:09 am

In post 2264, karnos wrote:
In post 2263, gigabyteTroubadour wrote: No, because I was a counterwagon pushed by scum and have helped town? To literally everyone else I'm obvious town. Might I ask why you think I was double bussing with Titus?
It was theoretically scum vs scum wagons. You could either bus one of them, or try to defend both and look like obv scum after the flip.

why is titus bussing me though?? in your scumteam, I'd HAVE to be the doctor, so why the hell is Titus "tunneling" on LITERALLY THE MOST IMPORTANT MEMBER OF THE SCUMTEAM? People townreading me as scum means that they have to plan to keep me alive for endgame because the gunsmith (which the scumteam most likely knew existed) is the only one that could out me.

like the strategic thing to do for titus is to ""re-evaluate"" her reads post-Maria flip

gigabyteTroubadour · Mon Sep 26, 2016 4:10 am

fhsjsnshfjd

kraska is town nero what the fuck

gigabyteTroubadour · Mon Sep 26, 2016 4:17 am

In post 2274, Nero Cain wrote:
In post 2270, gigabyteTroubadour wrote:fhsjsnshfjd

kraska is town nero what the fuck
Why couldn't she read one buddy as scum (Titus/Blitz) and the other as town (shadow)?

She COULD have but like

she isn't playing to her scum meta at all... i'll go into this later tonight but she is SO obvious town here imo

gigabyteTroubadour · Mon Sep 26, 2016 4:23 am

In post 2278, karnos wrote:
In post 2267, gigabyteTroubadour wrote:
why is titus bussing me though?? in your scumteam, I'd HAVE to be the doctor,

What? No. There might not be a doc. Might be 1shot bp or something, which could lead to blitz thinking a vig exists. Same logical result.

And busing isn't a sure thing. You bus a partner, but the wagon doesn't lead to a lynch, you created a ton of useful doubt and you still have your sooper valuable doc partner. It's a gambit that works when it fails too.

we think it's a doc because of the gunsmith... bp still has a gun

gigabyteTroubadour · Mon Sep 26, 2016 8:17 am

Thor, if Shadow is town, who is scum?

gigabyteTroubadour · Mon Sep 26, 2016 9:59 pm

In post 2251, Shadow_step wrote:Okay let's just consider this for a second.
IF nero shot me and I was protected by scum doc, it means I am scum.

Consider this
In post 1, chilledtea wrote:6) A mafia member can only carry out his faction kill, or his individual ability, but not both.
If the scum doc protected me N1, he would protect me N2 as well.
Which means I did the kill, but only I didn't! I investigated Kraska.

^this is why i'm hesitating, Elyse

he could have fakeclaimed vanilla cop, but what's with the Kraska investigation? A lucky guess??

gigabyteTroubadour · Mon Sep 26, 2016 10:42 pm

ok wait

if shadow is town, then town has 3 clears, right? As in Nero, Elyse, and Kraska, because it's unlikely that the scumteam composition is Goon/Goon/Roleblocker, and scum vigs are bastard (Nero is unlikely a serial killer because of his choice in kills). If Shadow is town, it's probably Goon/1-Shot RB (maybe more? rb is pretty powerful so idk)/Doctor, which means that Elyse and Kraska are both town.

I know for a fact I'm town, so we'll most likely come into MYLO with 3 clears fmpov if shadow is a mislynch. That's not TOO bad, right?

Sorry I did not get the chance to talk about my Kraska or Michel reads. I will put that on my to-do list today.

gigabyteTroubadour · Mon Sep 26, 2016 11:07 pm

^ And if that is true, then the scumteam is confirmed (at least from my pov) to be one of Michel/Karnos, Karnos/Thor, or Thor/Michel if Shadow is town. I don't see the downside of this.

So

Michel, Thor, and Karnos

: If shadow is town, which of the teams do you think it is? Replace your name with mine in the teams above for the possible combinations from your perspective. If you disagree with the clearing of Elyse and Kraska from a Shadow town flip, I'd like to know why. Ty~

gigabyteTroubadour · Tue Sep 27, 2016 1:56 am

In post 2304, Shadow_step wrote:Why do you want to take these risks when we can lynch scum today?

Your pool is {Me, Karnos, Michel, Thor}. Who is scum??

gigabyteTroubadour · Tue Sep 27, 2016 3:03 am

In post 2307, Shadow_step wrote:Why are you putting yourself in my pool?

From your pov, everyone else is confirmed town.

gigabyteTroubadour · Tue Sep 27, 2016 3:25 am

In post 2309, Shadow_step wrote:Yeah, but I've already said it's most likely karnos/thor, blitz being scum with you doesn't make a lot of sense. There is no way you are getting lynched before Karnos.

lemme ask more directly then:

What do you think is Michel? Besides PoE town, of course.

gigabyteTroubadour · Tue Sep 27, 2016 3:55 am

no??

that's not how anything works??

We don't know FOR SURE that the scumteam protected Shadow, Nero could have been roleblocked. So they can BOTH be town...

Also, nero isn't a serial killer because A: That's not balanced, and B: His Gerry kill comes from a vig, no questions asked.... Gerry was literally the next lynch, so why not kill someone who is scummy enough to be a vig shot but not next-in-line to be lynched? Doesn't make sense.

also karnos he's out of shots

gigabyteTroubadour · Tue Sep 27, 2016 4:17 am

i'd rather be dealing with gerry at this point

gigabyteTroubadour · Tue Sep 27, 2016 4:21 am

karnos

find me a mini normal with 3 scum and a serial killer

ty

gigabyteTroubadour · Tue Sep 27, 2016 4:21 am

3 mafia/group scum*

gigabyteTroubadour · Tue Sep 27, 2016 4:24 am

I thought all mini normals have 3 mafia?

gigabyteTroubadour · Tue Sep 27, 2016 9:14 am

In post 2325, Elyse wrote:
In post 2298, Shadow_step wrote:If I was scum, we would know that there is either an SK/vig in the game. My "buddy" would be protecting me.
And scum can't kill and perform an action on the same night because...?

Setup Info Rule #6. Can't do an action and kill at the same time.

That's what's stumping me about scum!Shadow.

gigabyteTroubadour · Tue Sep 27, 2016 9:51 am

In post 2327, MichelSableheart wrote:Goon/Goon/Roleblocker doesn't seem completely out of the question to me, as the roleblocker is a pretty powerful role.

Probably a bad ssumption to make but I don't know, if the roleblocker had more than 1-shot, wouldn't it make more sense to roleblock Nero a second time after an investigative role's flip? I wouldn't assume more than one or two investigative roles if I were in the scumteam, and if I killed one investigative role and roleblocked someone else, I would assume it's safer to roleblock that person a second time (especially if there was a risk of there being a vig).

Plus it's kind of silly of me to assume every mafia team would approach this situation the same way I would probably want to (never played scum before so I'm not even sure if this logic is sound/what most people would think)... The above idea, set-up spec implying that there is a doctor though is what makes me think that we're more likely dealing with a 1-shot roleblocker and doctor or just a doctor, and that Matrix6 balances its Cop/VT set-up without a roleblocker all made me not consider that there could just be a single roleblocker.

sorry my thoughts are kind of incoherent, i'm phoneposting and that tends to happen when i write a few paragraphs on a smaller screen... also putting a reminder to myself to look for mini normals with serial killers to see how they're balanced and to talk more about my kraska townread

gigabyteTroubadour · Tue Sep 27, 2016 10:17 am

In post 2329, MichelSableheart wrote:But if it's your belief that a scum roleblocker would have targeted nero night 2, isn't that more evidence for there being a mafia doc rather then a mafia roleblocker, making shadow scum?

well, yes, but then that brings up the question of what happened N2?

One scenario is Shadow shoots + partner night-actions, but then Shadow couldn't have known that Kraska was a VT (Kraska's reaction to Shadow's claim today was really town, I didn't read it as SvS, and I'm already strongly townreading kraska), since he can't shoot and investigate. The only way I can think this happened exactly like this is that Shadow actually investigated Kraska N1 and decided not to investigate N2, making Elyse the fake investigation. It's also possible that he DID investigate Elyse as scum (why is beyond me) and he guessed Kraska's role correctly, but Occam's Razor and whatnot.

There's also Shadow investigates + partner shoots, which is a bit more plausible, but then there's the question of which scumteam can take the risk if they still believe there is a vig? Or, if there's a roleblocker rather than doctor, then why is having the cop investigate more important than having the roleblocker block?

gigabyteTroubadour · Wed Sep 28, 2016 2:30 am

i didn't think that was a shipost tbh...?

i don't really care for the points vs. you but not a lot of ppl are familiar with your playstyle so it's kind of understandable

i'm kind of having difficulty irl so idk if i'll be writing that post soon but kraska is NOT playing to her scum meta. kraska is passive regardless of her alignment but the specific stances she takes and her interactions with/around flipped scum don't feel the same way they did in her scum games (both recent and older). Maybe give her ISO in Queen of Hearts (FakeGod's most recent large theme) a quick read since Kraska is working on changing her scum meta and that's her most recent game as mafia? if that alone doesn't help i'll try to explain this better but this is p much town kraska

gigabyteTroubadour · Wed Sep 28, 2016 3:03 am

karnos are you scumreading Thor too?

gigabyteTroubadour · Wed Sep 28, 2016 4:14 pm

titus, that's why she wanted him vigged

Anyway, where's Thor? The massclaim finished and he was the one pushing it... Did he get want he wanted?

gigabyteTroubadour · Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:02 pm

hm, looks like the former

still i kind of would like to know what he's getting out of this

gigabyteTroubadour · Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:17 pm

Thor's the only person who hasn't weighed in on this, right? If so...

Intent to hammer Shadow

I think Vanilla Cop is a scum fakeclaim, not his actual role (as scum or town).

I might also wait for Michel to catch up because now that Titus flipped, his posts make a lot more sense and I think the way he's choosing to reevaulate is townie. I would like to hear what his full thoughts are pretty soon, even though he's making it to MYLO tomorrow (probably).

Pedit: Kraska no???

gigabyteTroubadour · Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:18 pm

note to self: don't fucking WRITE A WALL when you want to give intent

gigabyteTroubadour · Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:26 pm

Regardless of the flip, Karnos is the slot I'm scared of the most. I honestly cannot tell if he's lynchbait or not, he doesn't seem manipulative like he did last game but if it's not Shadow, then who...?

gigabyteTroubadour · Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:30 pm

In post 2365, gigabyteTroubadour wrote:Regardless of the flip, Karnos is the slot I'm scared of the most. I honestly cannot tell if he's lynchbait or not, he doesn't seem manipulative like he did last game but if it's not Shadow, then who...?

i take this back actually, I think Karnos makes perfect sense for a blitz partner regardless of Shadow's flip, that hammer on Maria could be stopping Kraska's deadline lynch from going through.

gigabyteTroubadour · Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:40 pm

In post 2370, Nero Cain wrote:I think that if Shadow is a town lynch then no lynching tomorrow is the optimal play so I don't really like Giga saying that she'd lynch over no lynch.

did i say this... probably but

I only nl if nobody is confirmed town. There are times where Mylo is better than Lylo, and depending on what we get tomorrow it might be

@Kraska

if shadow is town then I'm pretty sure it's Thor/Karnos anyway so... but I hate it when I only have a team via PoE because it usually means I'm wrong about something.

gigabyteTroubadour · Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:42 pm

In post 2375, kraska77 wrote:I know this is backwards thinking but after seeing how solid thor's scum game is, his play here doesn't match up to that :/

Where did you see scum!Thor? I've only played with town!Thor and I think he can go either way here.

gigabyteTroubadour · Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:44 pm

In post 2378, kraska77 wrote:Paint mafia the game I replaced out of
And in derp madness

Oooh, right
Maybe I should reread the former one

gigabyteTroubadour · Thu Sep 29, 2016 3:59 am

i love shadow_step

we're ascetic loved mason vanilla cops together

gigabyteTroubadour · Thu Sep 29, 2016 4:06 am

my intent still stands if shadow isn't getting lynched for some reason?? or chilled just dun goofed and forgot to lock the thread

gigabyteTroubadour · Thu Sep 29, 2016 4:13 am

^that's true but i'm not lolhammering in case he's loved, not ready to end the day yet

gigabyteTroubadour · Sun Oct 02, 2016 7:57 am

someone help me out

why is elyse town again?

bc i am really feeling karnos as lynchbait, Michel and Kraska are obvtown, and Nero is confirmed not-mafia.

I'm going to have to reread the past few days but it's between Karnos and Elyse here.

gigabyteTroubadour · Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:04 am

In post 2396, Nero Cain wrote:Why is Karnos lynchbait?

Shadow seemed really eager to get him lynched yesterday and the day before. Doesn't make sense to push a lynch on LITERALLY THE MOST IMPORTANT MEMBER OF THE TEAM (mafia doctor) when you already gave intent to hammer your other buddy.

It's not like Karnos wasn't viable Day 2 either, I almost moved the momentum onto him at deadline.

gigabyteTroubadour · Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:10 am

In post 2398, Nero Cain wrote:Well, its not like he could claim doctor as where Shadow could maybe coast on his claim.

That's true, but then the scumteam would practically be confirmed after a scum!doc flip from Karnos. I'm assuming having both a scum and town doctor isn't that common? The already sketchy doc claim from Titus would kind of proved the theory that she was fake claiming for a buddy.

gigabyteTroubadour · Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:11 am

my sentence construction makes zero sense oops

gigabyteTroubadour · Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:18 am

In post 2401, Nero Cain wrote:I'm lazy and about to go back to football but who were you scumreading besides Shadow?

Yesterday, Karnos/Thor/Elyse were all candidates, with Karnos being #1 and Elyse being the least likely.

gigabyteTroubadour · Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:21 am

ftr nothing karnos has posted is town, i really hate his playing up of SK paranoia for one. it's just interactions that make me hesitant to vote there.

gigabyteTroubadour · Sun Oct 02, 2016 10:19 am

ok so

if anyone scumreads one of {Michel, Kraska}, speak now or forever hold your peace

because i'm about to write both of them off as town and thus put town in an auto-win from my POV (lynch elyse today, then karnos if she's a ml)

I'm proxying my vote to Nero since he's confirmed town (serial killer nero does NOT kill gerry, karnos...), so if he has an objection to lynching in {Elyse, Karnos} then I want to know why.

gigabyteTroubadour · Sun Oct 02, 2016 12:24 pm

In post 2408, Elyse wrote:
In post 2405, kraska77 wrote:That was obviously an indirect kill
I'm an idiot

Also wtf I'm not scum. Why is this suddenly a thing? I wanted Titus and shadow both dead.

i was about to write a whole set of paragraphs talking about how the last scum is more likely to be someone who the mafia team hasn't been voting for (which is why I opted for you over karnos), but then i just kind of realized:

this is kind of like Firebringer vs. Zach in 649 (sorry i keep referencing that game it's like literally the only serious experience I have). In this case, you would be Firebringer (someone with a relatively empty / not obvtown or obvscum ISO) and Karnos Zach (someone who did really blatantly scummy shit but got away with it because people found excuses to townread him).

Like I took a look back at the votecounts and you started the deadline wagon on Shadow... (unless IaI voted and then unvoted?)... So while I didn't find your D1 play townie, you have that working for you. I'm still mulling about how I feel about your reaction to the massclaim. Scum in this case would always know that Nero had a guilty on Shadow, so trying to stop it from going through makes sense. On the other hand though, Thor's approach to starting it was kind of scummy and your reaction to it could be just as townie. I've been trying to avoid having a strong opinion on you because I think my view of you has been hurt really badly by my Day 1 confbias. It's possible I'm right, yeah, but??

Point of that paragraph though is that your D2+ play hasn't really been townie or scummy enough to make me want to change my read on you. I think it's more likely that you've just been busy rather than avoiding the game/pressure, too, so... Just about as null as Firebringer.

Then with Karnos? If you take a look at the Day 1 lynch vote count, Karnos looks scummy as fuck.

In post 1422, chilledtea wrote:
MariaR
(L-0) :
Thor665
, MichelSableheart,
gerryoat
,
Blitzkrieg
, gigabyteTroubadour,
JarJarDrinks
, karnos.

gerryoat
(L-3) :
MariaR
,
Shadow_step
, Elyse.

Shadow_step
(L-5) :
I Am Innocent
,
Nero Cain
.

Blitzkrieg
(L-6) : kraska77.

Not Voting (0) : No one.

There were not one, but

two

deadline wagons trying to form. Kraska was trying to push me to vote for Titus, but coincidentally, Karnos hammers Maria? I want to believe that that's the kind of hammer you see from someone trying to save their buddies.

my conclusion is that i really don't know. karnos has brought little to this game besides SK paranoia, a fluffy "readlist", a shithammer, and a tunnel on town. I can't townread that at all. But then Shadow's bus-happy play with the supposed Mafia Doctor doesn't really make sense. You're more of a PoE read, but your vote on Titus could have very well have been a bus. The Shadow push D1 less so, but everyone is much more town compared to you.

EoD i'm probably voting karnos but i'm not 100% sure about him. i want nero to weigh in tbqh

also i'm going to say that mhsmith dying actually kind of sucks for town, not only is he an easy player to read for me, it makes deciding between MYLO and LYLO hard. Every LYLO I can think of happening is just multiple levels of weird...

gigabyteTroubadour · Sun Oct 02, 2016 1:11 pm

In post 2410, Nero Cain wrote:
In post 2409, gigabyteTroubadour wrote:Shadow_step (L-5) : I Am Innocent, Nero Cain.
this tickles me.

Remind me why Michel is obvtown?

Transparent thought process, his support of wagons that Titus pushed didn't feel like the kind of support a buddy gives (I feel that he would probably be less obvious about the fact that he and his buddy are openly pushing the same wagon. Compare Karnos's pushing a vanity wagon on you at first and then jumping on much more quietly), and his re-evaluation of the game post-Titus flip doesn't read like busywork (and if he wanted a smooth transition in faking reads as scum, he doesn't HAVE to write catch-up posts). To me I think he's the most likely to be "misguided town".

Plus, I also trust your meta read on him from earlier.

if you want specifics i'll have to hop on a computer. any reason you ask about him over kraska or anyone else?

gigabyteTroubadour · Sun Oct 02, 2016 1:37 pm

karnos i'm like 90% sure that Nero was nightkilled and mhsmith protected him... why would scum shoot an easy mislynch when they can shoot confirmed not-mafia?

And my case vs. you is crystal clear?? Your slot has done nothing town. You hammered town when two deadline wagons on scum were being formed, the way you dealt with my wagon D2, your pushing of Nero as a SK when he was literally confirmed town, your busywork readlist... Those are things I see from scum.

If you're town, I'm obviously still alive because whoever is actually scum is going to hope to bring us to LYLO, so maybe now is the time to explain why Titus wanted to lynch the Mafia Doctor or stop this shit tunnel on town.

gigabyteTroubadour · Sun Oct 02, 2016 1:41 pm

also you didn't even scumread transcend in 646 so i have no idea how your bussing meta applies here

gigabyteTroubadour · Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:06 pm

ok but meta isn't even my argument? you kind of inserted that point in and are debating it while i have more than that. if anything i agree that this doesn't feel like your scum meta and i've said this, you don't feel as outwardly slimey as you did last game

it's just that every other slot is pretty obviously town (besides elyse)

and why tf does poe mean that it's between michel or kraska? why not elyse??

gigabyteTroubadour · Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:13 pm

In post 2418, karnos wrote:Even if titus, on an alt, is 100% against busing, that doesn't mean she has magical mind-control powers over her partners. They could still have decided to bus her against her wish.

???

pronouns are making this confusing bc titus and i could both be "she". assuming she is titus here

Me "bussing" Titus has nothing to do with Titus's scum meta, it's Titus "bussing" me that does. And the point isn't even meta, you never addressed what scum have to gain from a double bus that could very well risk their most important member.

karnos wrote:
In post 2409, gigabyteTroubadour wrote: Then with Karnos? If you take a look at the Day 1 lynch vote count, Karnos looks scummy as fuck.
Is that really how scum looks to you?

Scum knows when scum is hammering town. Scum is careful, scum waits, scum buses partners who are absolutely going down.

No. Scum slide onto a town wagon as the 3rd or 4th voter with some crafted reason to avoid looking suspicious and then feign ignorance and anger when a town player finally hammer.

If scum are about to lose a PR or a skilled player to a rushed, all-town deadline wagon then I think they would stick their neck out and hammer a townie. You ended the day fast when there was a clear attempt that people weren't ready, and deadline isn't an excuse because 18 hours would have been enough time to push Shadow or Blitz.

Also stop misrepping my argument and saying it's 100% meta when it's not??

gigabyteTroubadour · Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:14 pm

In post 2415, gigabyteTroubadour wrote:You hammered town when two deadline wagons on scum were being formed, the way you dealt with my wagon D2, your pushing of Nero as a SK when he was literally confirmed town, your busywork readlist... Those are things I see from scum.

^where is the "meta" in this

like, protecting buddies, dodging wagons pushed by buddies, keeping options open, filler... that's not town at all