Mini 527 - Doom in Valencia - Game Over!

[gorckat]

Confirm.

Are there rules?

[gorckat]

vote: MeMe

[gorckat]

vote: gorckat

for being the first to vote, and for doing so with no random reason

vote: neko2086

The absence of reason is random

[gorckat]

Because vellon hasn't posted since 10-21, most likely.

[gorckat]

So are we waiting for 12 live players, or are we getting started now?

[gorckat]

vote: gorckat

for being the first to vote, and for doing so with no random reason

vote: neko2086

The absence of reason is random

Why, I do think it was random!

[gorckat]

vote: archaist

MOD: Votecount?

[gorckat]

What a curiously baseless assertion.

[gorckat]

There are many alternatives:

1) You're scum and know she's a townie
2) You're scum and so is she
3) You're an SK and therefore she's something else
4) You're a townie who has no idea what she is
5) You're a cop with a headstart
6) You're Masons

I have no reason to rely on your statement as a guide for whom to go after.

vote: MeMe

[gorckat]

My last two votes have been very well thought out.

[gorckat]

@Neko: Are you most suspicious of archaist, soupfly or myself?

[gorckat]

I notice that despite neko2086's asking you to explain them, you ignored the question.

Deliberately. In effect, I said no.

Not at this moment, at least.

[gorckat]

I don't know what to think of Soupfly

That seems like avoidance of a question, but is a common way of saying neutral. You must think

something

about him.

Do you find him scummy? If so, why? If not, why? If you find him neutral, what has he done to end up there?

What do you think I'm hiding?

[gorckat]

Neko: If your vote on archaist was just a catalyst for discussion and you saw soupfly and/or I as opportunistic scum, why didn't the vote switch to one of us?

Soupfly: I have to agree with Sammich. Why even bring all that up? For me, you've just undercut everything you might do in the future and, in effect, told me not to trust you.

[gorckat]

<This post has little to do with the game at hand>

I don't think you should change your playstyle if you're winning games.

And by trust, I think I meant credibility. Its hard for me to put in words at the moment.

I guess it struck me as a cook coming to my table and saying, "Sometimes I poison food and sometimes I don't. In both cases it tastes good, so enjoy!" I don't want to start playing the analogy game where we go back and forth saying that's not what I meant/yes it was, but that's what I've got off the cuff.

It was unnecessary. Its possible you'd never get called on your style this game.

</This post has little to do with the game at hand>

[gorckat]

vote: SirWario

[gorckat]

Now that I believe we are officially out of random stage, I will strive to present more activity to satiate the popular demand.

I'm surprised you found nothing else in the game worth commenting on.

[gorckat]

Random stage II!

Coming soon to a game near you

[gorckat]

And what exactly did I do to deserve it?

Read your posts and explain to me why you

don't

deserve to be voted.

Burden of Proof?

[gorckat]

Hey- I'm willing to be enlightened

Now I see your unstated distinction between

scum

and

vote-worthiness

. I had simply thought that since we'd pretty much passed the random stage (at one point, anyways) that any vote by an active player was an indicator of suspicion.

[gorckat]

Eh, I hoped we were past random crap. I'll look at the last couple pages and see what I think.

[gorckat]

vote: neko2086

Quick re-read and I think this is a good start.

[gorckat]

gorckat, I really really wish you would start explaining your votes.

I've seen a handful of inconsistencies/things not jiving for me. Forgive me for stumbling for a means of voting that doesn't tip my whole hand.

@Archaist: Why soupfly? I voted neko without giving reasons first.

[gorckat]

I was eagerly awaiting Sammich's review since I was gonna be in this one. I'm vain like that

On the other hand, he could be asking to replace out as a convenient excuse to avoid this sort of pressure, but, that seems unlikely.

That would be very extreme, replacing out just to avoid getting pressured.

I'm not sure I would agree that MeMe's reasons are no longer valid.

[gorckat]

also, his suspicions are a bit bland and he's even skittish in the way he applies pressure.

Thank you for finding words for something I'd felt, but couldn't put my finger on.

I'm ready to post daily and flood if need be to bump this game in the forum and on people's Watched Topics.

[gorckat]

I'm ready to post daily and flood if need be to bump this game in the forum and on people's Watched Topics.

Doing so, now!

[gorckat]

Is it too early to bump for Sunday (its 12:23 am here)?

Oops!

[gorckat]

Ooh- I like the little colored dots. They make for a very convincing argument

[gorckat]

Ooh- I like the little colored dots. They make for a very convincing

argument

•

Where's yours?

In case you were asking that "for real":

I voted neko because he seemed to say one thing and do another a few times. soupfly pointed out his blandness and hesitancy to voice suspicion, which I'd seen but couldn't verbalize (it was an unconscious cue/read on my part). You've caught another inconsistency of the same character as the ones that made me vote him.

[gorckat]

vote: Abandon

If we get replacements en masse, then fine. Otherwise, I'm fine with moving on.

[gorckat]

Yeah, pretty much.

One person has said they want to bail (MeMe)
Two have said they'll bail if the game is dead (soup and Neko)
7 people are inactive over one week.

I'm agreeing with MeMe.

I played in a Mini that had 11 total replacements for 12 players, one role being replaced 3 times and two roles replaced twice. It took ~8 months. It was not fun.

If we got a load of replacements all at once, then awesome. Realistically, I do not expect that to happen.

[gorckat]

Cool!

[gorckat]

More.

Did I do that right

[gorckat]

I haven't fairly warned people yet- I

will

bastardize your name into whatever abbreviation works best in my mind as "casual". I prefer gorc, not gor, but to each his own

Gorckat, care to rebut?

Not much to rebut. I think I was the first to cite "inconsistency" on his part as my main motive. The 'yeah what they said' were two posts by others that confirmed a feeling I'd had but couldn't express (tentativeness) and another inconsistency (tunnel vision) of the sort that made me vote him.

neko: Even if I hadn't expressed anything "original", are we expected to?Do you expect each vote to have original reasons to back it up?

[gorckat]

neko: Even if I hadn't expressed anything "original", are we expected to?Do you expect each vote to have original reasons to back it up?

I believe that the answer to your question would be, "uh... yeah" Why on earth should we trust you if you're going to play the 'yes man' all day?

What I meant to ask, more specifically, is once a case is made and you agree with it, what else can you add?

Now, you did mention inconsistencies, good, but honestly, a good mafia can be just as consistent as a good townie, so that seems like a weak argument to me, and so far, that seems to be all you have. Is that all you have? I wouldn't know, because you haven't really elaborated anything. That's unfortunate for you.

Let's elaborate more now:

There was the post questioning why MeMe got on Jester, but not vellon. I thought it was obvious that vellon hadn't posted anywhere from MeMe's post. If it was honest confusion, fine- it is a small thing, but didn't sit well with me.

There was the postlooking at Archaist for wanting to wait for the last 2 people. You seem to be wanting confirmation for an attack on him. You voted him after soupfly we should get it on, which struck me as a tad odd (tenative, as later pointed out).

You didn't vote me when you said I was opportunistic scum, again seeming to look for confirmation to attack, nor did you when you felt I was hiding something.

So for either you or soupfly to jump onto a wagon (if 3 votes in a 12-player game counts as a wagon), I think that's a bit fishy, but not nearly worrisome enough for me to place a vote. I will keep it in mind, though.

Looks like that was said because no one jumped on with you.

I'd be hesitant about voting for you, but nobody is, currently, so there's no danger yet. I think you've deserved a

vote:sikario

I don't think anyone was voting me, either, when you were suspecting me.

I think that is everything up to where I voted you. I didn't keep notes, so I may have forgotten something not mentioned.

[gorckat]

Woah. I though Oman replaced in.

To answer your question, Sik, I think the lurkers should be pressured yes, but lynched? wow that's a bit extreme.

Without the threat of lynch, what pressure is there? There is no pressure if there is no threat of lynch. How can you have any pressure if you won't lynch! [/lame Pink Floyd meat and pudding joke]

That said, I'm not giving up yet.

I should hope not, after only 2 or 3 votes.

sik: What reaction were you expecting to confirm neko as scum?

[gorckat]

I stumbled on that last inconsistency by neko- that he suggested I was opportunistic scum for 3 voting Archaist, but didn't unvote Archaist himself (I think that was left out of my last post. Apologies, if it was in there).

I agree on Guardian calling out SirWario.

[gorckat]

Its still day one.

I'd much rather you re-read than possibly be manipulated by everyone's interests. You won't be tested, but your own views would be much more appreciated (by me at least).

Just skim up, make quick notes on how it looks and seems as you go and jump in. You could be functionally caught up in an hour or so.

[gorckat]

I love how people think I'm scummy because I'm being too nice.

We should start a nice guys club- I've gotten that, too

You niceness has nothing to do with

my

vote.

[gorckat]

Bump.

[gorckat]

While I admit that I haven't fully analyzed the other players yet (SirWario in particular), I'm pretty sure that I want to lynch one of Archaist, neko, and gorckat today.

How thorough.

Am I already bussing neko?

My vote on archaist was not random- it was to push him to 3 votes, fishing for reactions. In your experience, do you often find scum voting each other early? Which games?

The most likely reason you see link between the three of us is we were among the active half of the players for awhile. I've had dialog with other players when there's been questions for me or questions I had for them.

[gorckat]

Sorry for your loss, neko. Best wishes.

vote: Gorgon

If sikario worries you, why didn't you vote him? And please direct me to those helpful SirWario posts.

[gorckat]

Anyone?

[gorckat]

Sorry for briefly morphing into that which I loathe.

I'm sure you've earned a pass

[gorckat]

Because I wasn't thinking about who to vote when I made that post. It was just a quick list of my thoughts at that point, after a first skim of the thread.

Have you gathered up any further suspicion or worry in the two weeks since then?

[gorckat]

I see the case on Pra. I'll move at deadlinbe if we must force a lynch, but I think Gorgon, SirWario or sikario are better choices.

[gorckat]

Holy scummy post, Batman. Gorckat is parroting other player's suspicions and supporting a wagon without actually placing his vote on it (or even a FoS, for that matter).

Would you rather go No-Lynch? I'm only moving if one of the people I think are scummier aren't being lynched.

gorckat is asking for another player's analysis while offering no analysis of his own!

Out of context. It was directly related to my questioning Gorgon on why he hadn't voted sikario, iirc, when they worried him.

[gorckat]

Frustrating.

[gorckat]

May I propose that we play the "top 3 game?"

Why not?

[gorckat]

Deadline's the 13th.

Even still, we really don't have time to play top 3. Timezones and stuff.

Thinking...

[gorckat]

unvote

vote: SirWario

I like that better than Gorgon, at the moment.

[gorckat]

and I find it suspicious that people are saying we shouldn't bother.

As it was proposed, I believe we do not have time to 1) get a majority to agree to play, 2) get everyone to post their list and name the next person to do so and 3) marshal some kind of action based on those posts.

I also believe I've already put my top three out there- Sikario (now DR), Gorgon and SirWario.

[gorckat]

maybe your voting habits really are just strange, but I think nobody in this game has voted with less discretion than you.

I've tried to be provacative, unlike other games I've been in. Each vote has been intentional and deliberate and will hopefully be useful later. Unfortunately, there have been really bad lulls with people getting replaced or just not doing anything.

Can you show me where my votes have harmed the town, or been done with that intent?

[gorckat]

Sure- its a good idea to just do it. Once I was reminded the deadline was so close, I was afraid we'd spin circles.

[gorckat]

Have you read the whole game, Arakorn? You have

no

preference for whom you'd rather lynch?

[gorckat]

unvote

vote: soupfly

[gorckat]

FoS: Arakorn

Maybe the deadline will hit in a week.

[gorckat]

Gorckat, seriously, what the hell? Soupfly isn't even among your top suspects...In case you're not all aware, the deadline is in 4 days

Someone needs to be at 3 votes if we're to learn anything.

SirWario is getting replaced. I'm willing to see if the replacement is better since some have said the criticisms of SW are a playstyle/demeanor thing.

Are you voting DR right now? At this game's glacial pace, I doubt you need to worry about a quick lynch.

I agree Arakorn might be better off replaced. I can't decide if I want to push a wagon on him based on the uselessness of someone who is unavailable to play the game or not, but I agree I'd have expected him to come down somewhere if he were scum. However- if he's scum, he benefits just as much by delaying things (one more person alive is one more to hide behind).

I will wagon whomever needs to be wagonned to lynch. At this point, I just want this fucking game to go to night so that something will happen.

[gorckat]

Yeah- I've seen that suggested elsewhere. Would probably make a decent MD thread after its not relevant here.

[gorckat]

I've already said that if we don't get sikario, SirWario, Gorgon to three, I'll take somebody out...why move now?

If you'd read the thread previously, you could have voted me then.

vote: Arakorn

for looking for the easy way out.

[gorckat]

unvote
vote: Dead Rikumaru

That makes three for one of my top three!

@Guardian: I don't like Arakorn's lack of effort and cavalier deadline attitude, thus I voted him.

[gorckat]

What's up with Archaist?

[gorckat]

Arakorn- what page did you start reading from?

[gorckat]

I think it was something under 10, I was reading posts where people said "so should we start now?". (It struck me how the game could have been several pages of spam though...)

Unvote

You joined on page 11. It was pretty clearly under 10. People said something to that effect just about every page due to replacement issues.

I think you're being pretty dodgy.

[gorckat]

Wow. I need to map out the votes and their changes from the first post this page until the lynch...really wish the distillery were still up.

[gorckat]

POST 350
Rikimaru (3) - neko2086, Guardian, gorckat
soupfly (2) - Archaist, SirWario,
Gorckat (2) – Tarhalindur, Arakorn
Arakorn (1) - MeMe,
Guardian (1) - Pra a Funkee Home Sapien
neko2086 (1) - soupfly

not voting (2) - Gorgon, Rikimaru

POST 354
Rikimaru (3) - neko2086, Guardian, gorckat
soupfly (2) - Archaist, SirWario,
Gorckat (2) – Tarhalindur, Arakorn
Arakorn (2) - MeMe, Gorgon
Guardian (1) - Pra a Funkee Home Sapien
neko2086 (1) - soupfly

not voting (1) - Rikimaru

POST 357
Rikimaru (3) - neko2086, Guardian, gorckat
soupfly (2) - Archaist, SirWario,
Arakorn (2) - MeMe, Gorgon
Gorckat (1) – Tarhalindur
Guardian (1) - Pra a Funkee Home Sapien
neko2086 (1) - soupfly

not voting (1) - Rikimaru. Arakorn

POST 368
Rikimaru (4) - neko2086, Guardian, gorckat, soupfly
soupfly (2) - Archaist, SirWario,
Arakorn (2) - MeMe, Gorgon
Gorckat (1) – Tarhalindur
Guardian (1) - Pra a Funkee Home Sapien

not voting (1) - Rikimaru. Arakorn

POST 370
Rikimaru (4) - neko2086, Guardian, gorckat, soupfly
soupfly (2) - Archaist, SirWario,
Arakorn (2) - MeMe, Gorgon
Guardian (2) - Pra a Funkee Home Sapien, Tarhalindur

not voting (1) - Rikimaru. Arakorn

Okay...some assumptions on the vote moves here at the end (post 350 is an arbitrary start point, looking a little further back and at content more deeply will be done later)

-if Gorgon were scum w/ Riki, he would have voted soup or me.
-if Arakorn were scum w/ Riki, he would have voted soup
-if soup were scum w/ Riki, he would have voted Arakorn
-if Tarhalindur were scum w/ Riki, he would have voted soup, Arakorn or Guardian

Those are pretty broad and assume no bussing and an intent to preserve the godfather, and there's more to be looked at based on who avoided Riki/Sikario earlier and such, but I have to head off to lunch, so I'll mull it over when I get a chance.

[gorckat]

Checking in. One of my dogs died so I haven't been up to playing, but wow. I hope to be on either tonight or sometime tomorrow.

I'm inclined to believe the cop claim and MeMe's guilt, but haven't done that re-read yet. I'll be back soon, I hope.

[gorckat]

mikeburnfire and Arakorn, by a quick skim, are at the top of my list. Srakorn was really worried about MeMe's self-vote counting, and mike didn't make any case on Tar before flipping on MeMe.

I like a

vote: Arakorn

right now.

[gorckat]

Once MeMe came up scum, I hadn't wasted any time on it, neko. I think you're the "nk", but no idea what the "S" means. I'm guessing the "M" was for Mason, which is rather obvious, since he claimed it.

I didn't remember MeMe pushing for Arakorn, but she could done so in the hopes of saving the godfather and buying some bonus distancing points.

[gorckat]

In my quick skim of various parts of the game at lunch I thought Gorgon might be scum as well.

In addition to the aforementioned Arakorn pushings, there was the way sikario used the smilies when random voting deathguise. It seemed a little chummy.

unvote

till I decide which way to run.

[gorckat]

Here's Tar's plan broken out with a full town list:

Code: Select all

mikeburnfire: lynch
Gorgon: rocket o' doom by soup

Javert: investigate by Tar
Pra a Funkee Homo Sapien
Arakorn

soupfly
Tarhalindur
neko2086
gorckat

I like lynching Gorgon first and offing mbf at night, but really, either way we proceed the same if neither one is scum.

[gorckat]

I've also been getting funky vibes from Javert. I can't pin it down. I'm really ok with mbf, Gorgon or Javert today.

[gorckat]

Instead of reading all 500 pages, would you mind at least outlining some reasons for the gorckat vote?

Indeed.

FoS: mbf

[gorckat]

Okay, I had a reason for my vote. I was browsing some of the earlier pages and saw that gorckat said something really scummy along the lines of "I don't care who dies" or "I'm scum" or something

I will wagon whomever needs to be wagonned to lynch. At this point, I just want this fucking game to go to night so that something will happen.

This was the end of my 57th post and probably what you saw.

[gorckat]

vote: Gorgon

At this point, I think we're best off not going circles and proceeding with Tar's plan.

I think soup should do what he sees fit, either offing the player he has the best read on that Tar left in his 'not to be investigated'/'not a mason' groupings, or protecting Tar. Better to leave scum guessing entirely.

[gorckat]

Did they know they were "lovers"? Shit.

FoS: Arakorn

and

Javert

I think our (hopefully) last scum is one of them.

[gorckat]

Oh, why is that?
Just the same reasons Soup stated? Then that makes your post pretty useless

Testy?

Yes- its "just the same reasons soup stated".

He's the inventor, he seems to have cleared Neko, I'm a townie, and that leaves you and Javert.

Hmm...wonder who could be scum? Is there some sort of process of elimination I could use?

[gorckat]

Hello, I'm Arakorn and I'll be replacing McStab. As there's already 11 pages here I really don't feel like thoroughly reading through them all, so could someone just quickly sum up what actions have been taken so far? (Like, which day and who were lynched and who night killed etc?)

Or, we haven't started yet? There's nothing in the first post at least...

Joined game, lack of effort hunting the next several posts (not the ones mentioning V/LA, obv)

I also think it's worth to give this a shot and lynch Meme, at least we'll get a confirmation on his role next morning... That is unless someone has protective powers to protect Tar.

Vote: MeMe

Tally:

MeMe: (3) (Tarhalindur, Soupfly, Arakorn)

Doc fishing and distancing.

I get the feeling that Arakorn has avoided putting himself on the line at any point.

Re-reading Javert, I see no obvious slips, but I just don't trust him. Can't explain it.

He did point out that the printer could have been a tracker, not investigator, and that doesn't dupe Tar's role as well. In the interest of being thorough, I started back on neko and found this:

Wow, am I the only one that doesn't like it when people don't explain their votes? Seriously people. Sik, if anyone was going to explain their vote on me, it should be you, otherwise, this just looks omgusy. But, welcome to the bandwagon. This should prove useful on Day 2.

Followed by:

Wow, am I the only one that doesn't like it when people don't explain their votes? Seriously people. Sik, if anyone was going to explain their vote on me, it should be you, otherwise, this just looks omgusy.

But, welcome to the bandwagon

. This should prove useful on Day 2.

That said, I'm not giving up yet. I'm just surprised there's this many people going against me with so little argument. To answer your question, Sik, I think the lurkers should be pressured yes, but lynched? wow that's a bit extreme.

And Pra, nice to meet another Minnesotan. I'm down in Mankato. Looking forward to hearing your input on this game. Good luck.

•

This was not the reaction I had hoped for, neko. Why can't you jusy be scum and get it over with? Why must you ruin all my fun?

unvote neko

Now we have to go back to lookin'...
::looks to gorc::
Are

you

scum?

That's an interesting exchange in hindsight.

[gorckat]

vote: Javert

I'm trusting my gut.

[gorckat]

I know I made solid points re: Arakorn, but I think a scum Javert is more likely to get off in endgame than a scum Arakorn, thus I'm going that way. I know its intangible, but its my gut. Arakorn would be the likely choice at endgame.

[gorckat]

then your explanation of "gut" really does not apply as a justification to your vote.

Sure it does.

1) I think one of you and Arakorn are scum.
2) I have nothing concrete on you- just a "tingly" uneasy feeling
3) I have points against Arakorn
4) My gut also tells me you would be harder to lynch in endgame

At this point, reason does enter in a tad:

If you're harder to lynch in endgame, and you're one of the two candidates for scum, then I go for you today and the easy, process of elimination scum tomorrow (there is an additonal nuance to tomorrow's lynch proceeding if you're not the scum, but I'm holding that back and will point it out provided I survive the night).

Just like you outlined in "scum tactic", except my motive is pro-town.

[gorckat]

So, Arakorn is the more logical lynch, but you'd rather lynch Javert just because you don't want him there in the endgame?

Should the difficulty of lynching a person not be considered?

Essentially, you've outlined exactly what gorckat-scum needs to do if gorckat is indeed scum

True.

Do you think my willingness and eagerness to lynch the godfather day one, when I very easily could have pushed Arakorn, or even you, iirc, down is likely a scum move? Would I have voiced support for MeMe's lynch and guilt in the same post I said I needed time away from the game (when using that time could have allowed me distance from her)?

[gorckat]

Would MeMe have voted for me, along with another scum (can't remember the name) if I was also scum?

Probably part of the gut against Javert. I remember thinking that earlier on Day 3, but forgot it at some point between then and now.

[gorckat]

So anyway, we now have two people going off of gut and not evidence.

Who's the second?

[gorckat]

Ah- I was looking for an actual vote.

[gorckat]

Crap Logic

On my early posts, especially 83- purposeful poking for reactions, which led to more discussion, and eventually enough to lynch Sik/DR on.

For not voting sikario early- he was pushing in the same directions I was leaning (at least as far as SirWario and neko), iirc.

I note a few instances where you find my reactions or comments to be either what you'd expect anyone else to do, or not pushing one way or the other.

It looks like you want to swamp the others with 'evidence' in hopes I lynch easily.

[gorckat]

Is it crap logic just because you say so?

Have you read through it all and come to your own conclusions?

[gorckat]

What's a WOW? World of Warcraft isn't working.

I may have over-reacted in a defensive fashion, having missed that Javert intends to do the same for other players, but I also think he and I have a significant playstyle difference, stemming from what we get out of the game.

I play as a diversion. I'm competitive and want to win. I'm not, however, willing to spend hours on a single player as it looks like Javert does. I have re-read, several times, each player alive and dead. I may spend an hour (or two tops) throughout a day (at work and home) re-reading a single game and will make conclusions as best I can. I internalize a lot of what Javert has reviewed, instead focusing on stronger tells one way or the other, and at times relying on a gut instinct.

I'll try to answer his questions later- I thought I'd hit them with my first response post.

Votecount;

Javert (1) gorckat
Arakorn (1) neko

Not voting; The rest of you

[gorckat]

Derf. Should have known. I saw soup prodded in another game, but I think he responded to it, iirc.

[gorckat]

At risk of being a hypocrite, I'm tempted to vote for Arakorn.

But, looking back...if Arakorn was scum with DR, why didn't they both vote soup and put him at 4 votes? They could have done so before soup put DR at 4, basically saving DR for at least a night.

I'm comfortable with my Javert vote for now, and I haven't forgotten I said I'd look at unanswered questions he posed.

[gorckat]

@soup: A tracking tool has been suggested for the printer.

I wish I'd posted when I was on earlier (between 562 and 563) so I could have shown I wasn't interested in quick-lynching Arakorn (I was on the phone then and just logged back in). I thought that was the play yesterday, but not here.

neko: How are you ranking people? Is Arakorn more likely scum than Javert? Do you feel either of them more likely scum than me?

[gorckat]

That it'd tell you if they left their house (and performed a night action), like the role Tracker.

[gorckat]

If neko were scum, MeMe could have made the first kill, leaving him inside all night.

I also think he's town, but Javert has taken the position that neko isn't 100% clear.

[gorckat]

Arakorn- you have no suspicion of Javert?

Votecount;

Javert (1) gorckat
Arakorn (1) soupfly
gorckat (1) arakorn


Not voting; The rest of you

[gorckat]

To add to that, I'm 99% sure that we should lynch Javert or Gorckat, but of course you others are only 66.

But just consideration, as I'm not sure at all who (of gorckat and Neko) are scum..

Huh. What caused such a major swing:

The last time you posted, you said you were most suspicious of Gorckat, but that you didn't have any evidence. Has that changed, and would you like to update us?

No, no evidence, and considering that amount of post (since the last time I posted) I personally wouldn't be surprised of that...

unvote
vote: Arakorn

[gorckat]

Not on me- the swing on Javert/neko.

[gorckat]

but when it's revealed that I am town you might want to take my vote into consideration.

If I believe that you made an honest mistake, why should we consider your vote when you've offered nothing to back it up?

[gorckat]

Bump/kick/poke for the workweek.

[gorckat]

Bump.

Anyone?

[gorckat]

Not really, but the pace is getting frustrating. I'm mostly interested in Arakorn and Javert, for obvious reasons.

[gorckat]

Longest. Month. Ever.

[gorckat]

I'm removing this game from my watched list. I'll try to remember to check it in a week or so.

Request for a prod, if it actually goes somewhere.

[gorckat]

Breaking my self-imposed separation, but w/e.

Arakorn- do us a favor- quote and correct all the posts where you mixed up neko and Javert. I'm not understanding what mistakes you made.

[gorckat]

Honestly, I have nothing to say.

I refuse to try and justify every single post I have made. If there is something specific to question, ask it and I'll respond.

I'm torn between what I feel is Javert's attempt to overload us with info and Arakorn's flat refusal to list a concrete reason why he thinks I'm scummy.

Arakorn's "clarification" doesn't clarify things for me. Not to be a dick, but Arakorn- can you actually replace the names you confused? Copy the whole post, use a strikethrough and put the name you meant or thought was there?

All your last post did was restate that you got people mixed up which, at this stage of the game, is hard to fathom.

[gorckat]

This:

To add to that, I'm 99% sure that we should lynch Javert or Gorckat, but of course you others are only 66.

and this:

My suspicious-list:

1. Gorckat
2. Neko
3. Javert

beg to differ that you haven't mixed up any names. Unless your views have changed, which you haven't indicated.

[gorckat]

All right, a few questions I that have precipitated from my the second half of my commentary on gorckat:

1.)

Was there a particular reason you did not vote Gorgon (on Day One) until a deadline was placed, when you had three other posts where you could have done the same?

Not that I recall. It looks like I hadn't picked up on his sikario worries, which I noted at the time I voted.

2.)

Why did you vote for soupfly on Day One after the deadline was placed when you had at least four other people you found to be more suspicious? (Note: I believe you may have explained this before, but I am making this question based solely on my summary).

To put someone at risk of getting lynched.

3.)

Did you feel 'pressured' on Page 14? I would like as much detail as possible for this particular question. Thoughts, feelings, plans, etc.

Pressured by the deadline to get a lynch. I wish I could recall my exact state of mind from 2 months ago, but I can't.

4.)

Did you feel that your exercise on the beginning of Day Two (looking at voting patterns) was self-serving?

In the sense I thought it would help others and myself find scum. I guess I could have done it privately, if that's what you're getting at.

5.)

Why did you not advocate vigging Arakorn over vigging MBF?

I like lynching Gorgon first and offing mbf at night, but really, either way we proceed the same if neither one is scum.

I was fine with either one.

6.)

Why did you hammer Gorgon when it was fairly clear not everybody in the town (including Tarhalindur, easily the most important person in the game at that point) was not showing complete

comfort

with the plan?

Point me at a post showing dissent. I skimmed back and I didn't see any. I saw a string of "vote: Gorgon" and Arakorn's "let Tar decide".

[gorckat]

Hmm- okay. I see what you mean by dissension.

Looking back, Gorgon had claimed vanilla, said he was expendable and there was no real reason not to lynch him. iirc, I was concerned scum would get off the hook by us chasing our tail looking for the perfect plan, so I acted decisively and hammered.

[gorckat]

@Arakorn: You also owe us an explanation why your views shifted from neko being third to neko being second on your suspect list.

[gorckat]

Is that gut, or is there something specific?

[gorckat]

Do not hammer yet- we're still waiting for Javert to give reads on myself and Arakorn.

I'm still torn between the two:

-Arakorn should have been more involved and has avoided answering questions. He looks like scum that gave up.
-Javert has tweaked my gut. I don't trust him and I fear because of playstyle differences, I'd get the short end of the stick if he and I are in an endgame together.

[gorckat]

Both.

Arakorn's behavior is more obviously scummy, so I'm voting him. Logically, he's the scummiest person.

Javert's behavior concerns me as well. I can understand his taking his time to review everyone. His posting the summaries, however, seems unnecessary. If his reviews are so thorough, we'd be able to see that based on his questions. It strikes me, as I said before, as an attempt to overload us with information. Plus his whole "never lynched as town" concerns rubbed me the wrong way.

iirc, Archaist before him had been suspect, but not nearly active enough to draw firm conclusions.

I'm still willing to lynch either one. Reason tells me Arakorn is scum. Gut/intution tells me its Javert.

Either way I believe the town would win tomorrow after lynching both of them.

An alternative is to no-lynch two days in a row and see who the scum wants in the endgame, but I really don't want to be playing this game come next fall.

[gorckat]

endgame of

That

's why I didn't suggest it a couple weeks ago when the thought ran through my head. I'd totally forgotten my conclusions back then.

[gorckat]

Obviously it's supposed to say Javert-gorc-Arakon. I just suck at C/P, it seems.

[gorckat]

unvote
vote: Javert

At this poit, there's no way I'm lynching neo tomorrow, and I don't want to be stuck as Javert's out.

I recognize that moving my vote raises the chance I become Arakorn's out. I'm willing to gamble that.

[gorckat]

If Gorckat were town and really had more reason to believe Arakorn was scum, he'd still be voting Arakorn.

And if he's town and really can't decide which one is scum?

indicative of playing by strategy and not scum-hunting.

That makes no sense. Town shouldn't have a strategy? My strategy is this: I'm town and there's no fucking way I can get past Javert in LYLO, nor would Arakorn if he's town. Sure, that works the same if I'm scum, but I think I can prove tomorrow that I'm not.

Arakorn's willingness to go down is an appeal to emotion, just like Javert's never been lynched as town.

[gorckat]

I

hope

there isn't a tomorrow. I accept the possibility that there will be a tomorrow.

That sounds like you're saying that Arakorn is probably scum but you'd rather get Javert out of the way first because he would be dangerous to have in the endgame.

Yup.

Again- I'm torn 50/50 between Arakorn's scummy behavior and my gut towards Javert. I really don't think I can make any better of a case (or any case, really) against Javert if it's him, me and you. Thus, for town to win, we have to eliminate him first so we can lynch Arakorn if Javert isn't scum.

One reason Javert is so damn hard to read is he never really had to interact with DR or Meme. iirc, all he got say about Meme was "let's talk this through". He's actually in the best seat possible if he's scum- nothing can tie him to any other scum and he just has to hunt phantoms and point out my flaws.

Same for Arakorn, really. He never really hooked into Meme or DR, either. I've probably got the most interactions with both (counting sikario and DR together) out of anyone left.

[gorckat]

And yes- I was speaking about myself in the third person in your first quote.

[gorckat]

This is a critical moment. Gorckat has asked why he wouldn't have just stayed on soupfly if he were scum and get him lynched. Well, he had already switched to Arakorn, possibly in hopes that a bandwagon would start there.

Would the scum bus their godfather so early on, when it maybe wasn't even necessary? I think it so. Nevermind that he was the godfather, was he really that valuable? Sikario made some very strange gameplay, and out of the three would easily have been the weakest on the scumteam.

I bussed my GF day in Veggie mafia, and bussed a scum day 1 of Communist Mafia. Both were very different circumstances, notably- full majority lynches.

In this case, if I were scum, it would have been way smarter to let DR fall Day 2. Attention would have focused on him and we'd be one body ahead, with maybe a cop look at him possibly clearing him.

No way I'd bus a GF w/o majority support Day 1. It just doesn't make sense.

Votecount;

Javert (1) gorckat
Arakorn (1) soupfly
gorckat (2) arakorn, neko


Not voting; The rest of you

[gorckat]

Present. FWIW.

[gorckat]

Most of my suspicion on gorckat seems to stem largely from things I find personally problematic with what appears to be his playstyle: in particular, (a) the fact that he votes without explanation only to provide reasoning afterwards, (b) his placement on bandwagons, and (c) his claimed play that he would rather lynch the more 'difficult' players first so that the 'easier' players are left afterwards [established both with the "MBF > Arakorn vigging"-plan, as well as the "Javert > Arakorn lynching"-plan]. Of course, there are some things he has done which I have not felt comfortable with which cannot really be swept under the carpet of "playstyle", but:

a) Far better players than I do the same. Glork recently did it to me in an another ongoing game, despite 30 pages of info. I also see mbf doing it this game (as town!).
b) "Third on the wagon is scum!" sorts of things? Commonly considered bunk. Citations and proof such placement equates with scum required.
c) See ABR's mini 486 where I argued the same (this was just the last time before my lynch- see my posts for several other times I borught it up) against Elias, yet was town.
c2) I never said I wanted mbf vigged over Arakorn. I think I read a question wrong earlier. You

asked

why I never wanted Arakorn vigged over mbf, but the

plan

tar presented put Gorgon and mbf up on the block. iirc, from skimming my posts right now, Arakorn was probably in a pool of people to be dealt with as a course of the plan.

For playstyle in general, yes- I think we are oil/water.

[gorckat]

Regarding the voting without reason- I clearly recall the ones early on in this game- the ones that were provocative and trying to get reactions. I don't recall doing so after Day 1 was in the books.

On the bandwagon placement- I'm trying to point out that those 3rd on the wagon types arguments

are

flawed, and that's what it seemed Javert was saying. If he broke down my postition on wagons and lynches earlier, please direct me to it and I'll address it directly (possibly pointing to any rebuttal I already have made, if I did so).

[gorckat]

Bah. Good luck guys.

[gorckat]

Dammit!

I hate you to Javert! I saw soemthing after I was hammered that might have helped neko. You kept saying my DR vote was for no reason, but that's only because, like Guardian just said, that it was based on sikario's play.

Arakorn's play also had me a little reserved the last two days (while watching LYLO), but honestly, the effort he seemed to put forth was miniscule and a more vigorous one might have swung things.

And pot/kettle- I should have tried harder to find something on Javert or Archaist.

Good game, Javert I do think we are oil and water as far as playstyles go, but now that this game is wrapped up and in the past I think I can get over my feelings of never wanting to play with you again