Mini 523 - Game Over!

[charter]

Here are your random numbers:

2

Timestamp: 2007-10-27 17:19:20 UTC

vote deepthought

never fails!

[charter]

How does it take three posts to make a random vote?

unvote deepthought
vote disciple slayer

[charter]

charter, better post an explanation fast.

FOS: charter

I don't know what to think of Lord Nikon/Dark Lady Shaiann yet.

Post an explanation of what? That I went from one random vote to another for really no reason?

[charter]

If you don't really care who your voting for, maybe you don't really care who we lynch? That's what got me suspicous.

Where did I say I don't really care who we lynch? I most certainly do care, I want to lynch scum. However, in case you haven't noticed, none of the people I've voted for were in any danger whatsoever of being lynched.

I don't really find Infinitive not voting to be that suspicious. It doesn't look like he's anti lynch, just anti random voting.

[charter]

Hey, I got L-1'd on the first page of my first game. Sometimes people just have a brain fart when they're setting the random votes. I'm still not convinced of anything.

The corollary is that I got lynched on the top of page 4, so maybe that just means that my first game was screwy.

Yeah, I put someone at L-1 because I wasn't thinking and I was the prime suspect for scum for the rest of the game. (when I was in fact the cop)

I agree with you Nudude, that we need people to post regardless of if they have something to post about, else we won't ever find scum. However, I don't think you have to vote if there isn't someone you wish to vote for, but you should be looking for someone to vote for.

[charter]

Hey, I got L-1'd on the first page of my first game. Sometimes people just have a brain fart when they're setting the random votes. I'm still not convinced of anything.

The corollary is that I got lynched on the top of page 4, so maybe that just means that my first game was screwy.

Yeah, I put someone at L-1 because I wasn't thinking and I was the prime suspect for scum for the rest of the game. (when I was in fact the cop)

Bah, charter and Infinitive are both sticking up for DLS. Could be a link between any of them. Could be Scum, Masons or Cult. Ain't much but at least something. IGMEOY.

Where am I "sticking up for" let alone even talking about/with Dark lady shaiann? I don't see where Infinitive does this either. Care to explain your statement?

[charter]

And I am beginning to realize that I may not be quiet enough to be a good townie right now. Pardon me if I lurk for a day.

There's nothing saying quiet people are good townies. Quiet people can also make good scum, and vocal people can make good townies.

[charter]

I really think you guys are making too big of deal over this. I think it's enough to say the vote was random because she didn't have any information to base it off of. If there's a reason, totally unrelated to the game, I think that's just as random as rolling a dice.

[charter]

HeH also has a good point against VampyreLord. I eagerly await his explanation of why he said charter and Infinitive were 'sticking up for' DLS just because they mentioned earlier games they were in where there was a fast early bandwagon that was not scum-motivated. Looks to me like just using past experience to warn against not drawing conclusions too hastily.

I think I'll motivate VL with a vote.

Unvote

Vote: VampyreLord

That's a good way of putting it. I'm trying to learn from my past mistakes. I'm not quite sure I want to vote for vampyrelord, but if his explanation isn't good I might be inclined to.

[charter]

Well, let's do this.

unvote liamcool, vote Shotgun_Kitten

Perhaps I can help prod SK into contributing.

unvote disciple slayer
vote shotgun kitten

[charter]

Be careful a bandwagon doesn't form here, people. If nothing else, it's foolish to become suspicious of someone because they haven't posted recently, and then to lynch them before they say anything about the increasing number of votes against them.

I want to hear from Shotgun Kitten, if at all possible, before we get any closer to a lynch. Right now, I'm still more suspicious of DLS, but SK does need to explain him/herself. OTOH, lunching a possible townie because of impatience is very dangerous.

I'm merely voting for SK to try and get him/her to talk. When they post something (assuming it doesn't give me a reason to keep my vote on them) I'll most likely take it off.

I agree, a bandwagon when we have nothing to go on is a terrible idea.

[charter]

Okay, I've kind of had it here. Nobody's posted for the better part of a day.

Come on, guys. Let's have a little action, hmmm?

It's quite difficult. We have SK and lord nikon who haven't posted in entirely too long.

Ho-hum. Need more information here.

I don't get this. You need more information about what? About who you think is scum. This sentence confuses me a lot and is unacceptable as your only post in a long time.

[charter]

Gave Charter an FOS because I didn't like how he voted me. OMGUS voted VampyreLord. I really can't say which of the two seem more suspicious at the moment. I was waiting for Shotgun_Kitten and Lord Nikon to post before posting more.

I don't really see how my voting on you because it took you three posts to put up a random vote (a joking vote on you in case it wasn't obvious) makes me suspicious. Also, this all happened in the first couple of posts. I don't like how you're still clinging to that. It seems like a very weak argument to say the least.

[charter]

Unvote: liamcool
Vote: deepthought

I don't like how you vote for liamcool and then immediately make a new post after unvoting him and then voting deepthought. Personally, I would have kept my vote on liamcool and just stated the reasons why you suspect deepthought. I think its very suspicious that you are switching your vote around like this this far into day one.

I don't think deepthought is scum. I think he has some seriously flawed views of what's good for the town, but he isn't really arguing them and trying to convince us that he's right, which I would expect scum to do. Also, I think it would be too obvious if he's scum and he's saying we want a mod kill. He would have to know that all fingers are going to point to him afterward, and I don't think he'd draw attention to himself like that if he was scum.

liamcool on the other hand, I am getting a scum feeling towards. I have to go now, so I'll finish my thoughts on him when I get a chance (few hours from now hopefully)

[charter]

With deepthoughts last post, my view towards him has changed, so most of my last post isn't necessarily true anymore.

He seems fairly adament that we get rid of her by any means necessary. I think this is dumb because we have virtually no information on her, and I don't see how you can come to the conclusion that she's scum based on almost nothing. It certainly isn't enough for me to lynch someone on. All I can go by is probabilities, and there's a greater chance, she is in fact, a townie.

liamcool is here and participating, but not helping the town out any. The only explanation I can come up with for this is that he is scum. I think he's purposely not joining the discussion very much, because he hasn't said he's been busy in real life.

HEH, makes sense.

[charter]

I don't like how you vote for liamcool and then immediately make a new post after unvoting him and then voting deepthought. Personally, I would have kept my vote on liamcool and just stated the reasons why you suspect deepthought. I think its very suspicious that you are switching your vote around like this this far into day one.

How is this scummy exactly? I feel HeH explained his thought process adequately ... he went back and reread.

He explained after I asked him about it. After his explanation, I can understand what he did and don't find it scummy. I've done it before too.

He seems fairly adament that we get rid of her by any means necessary. I think this is dumb because we have virtually no information on her, and I don't see how you can come to the conclusion that she's scum based on almost nothing. It certainly isn't enough for me to lynch someone on. All I can go by is probabilities, and there's a greater chance, she is in fact, a townie.

There's a 75% chance

any

given player in the game is a townie, power roles notwithstanding.

Next.

So when there's a 3/4 chance she's town, you want to lynch her anyway? I can't possibly imagine you have some info that pushes this chance lower.

Uh oh. Major alarm bells. Sounds to me like you're saying you know for sure that there are 3 scum. Tsk tsk tsk.

I've modded 12-player games before, so I'm about 95% sure; unless there are a handful of third parties, 2's too few and 4's too many.

I agree with gorgon. If you weren't scum, you would have said something like there's probably a 75% chance she's town. You however, said definitively there's a 75% chance she's town. No one in the town, other than mafia, would know this.

Regardless of what the percent chance she's town is, I still can't imagine a townie would want her flat out killed, when you can continue to play the game (to a certain extent) without her. So what if she's mafia? There's probably two more other ones out there that we can find and lynch instead.

[charter]

Since SK is getting replaced,

unvote shotgun kitten

[charter]

@laimcool.

You haven't really done any scumhunting and I'd like your opinion. Who do you find most suspicious? Why?

Based off the last page or so (the new conversation), I have a fairly strong suspicion (about 60%) or so that deepthought is scum. He seems to want Shotgun Kitten to be killed rather than replaced, which is kinda suspicious. Also, he apparently knows that there are three mafia. He stated that with a lot of convinction and knowledge. For all we know, this might be a non-standard game with 2 or 4 mafia, or even a bastard mod game with screwed up roles. Highly unlikely for the second instance though.

You pretty much reiterated what everyone else has already deduced. Still haven't been actively looking for scum, just latching onto other people's suspicions.

Charter's story bugged me..can we get a link to that game to confirm it?

viewtopic.php?t=5939
I just completely didn't think anyone could be close to a lynch when I made my vote because I made like the forth vote overall. A mistake I'm not going to make again (why I ask for vote counts and 'did I add these right?' before I vote) because we spent a while arguing over it when I was the cop and didn't need any extra attention.

In this game, a modkill would've eliminated a player I think may be scum. More broadly, it gives people an incentive not to lurk and play off of people's unwillingness to kill of lurkers (which otherwise ruins the game and is massively unsportsmanlike). Replacement's preferable when it can be done, but either would've worked for me.

How were you so positive SK was scum that you wanted her to be modkilled? She had like two posts and neither said anything. I had no inkling as to whether she was town or scum. Wouldn't you rather try and find and lynch another scum who you can be more sure about?

@mod, I'm currently not voting for anyone

thought I'm leaning heavily towards liamcool because I don't believe he's helped the town out at all.

• Your name is now in the Not Voting list. Thanks for pointing that out.

[charter]

Charter: Thanks. Seems to look good enough.

Oh, and on a side note, I hate to ask this, but are you male or female? I ask because your name reminds me of Carter, a girl, so I apply that gender to you, and It's kinda baseless, but confusing for me.

I'm a guy, but if you make a slip I'll know why, else I'd have thought you were a very confused person.

Ok, my thoughts.

deepthought, I believe everyone is aware lynching a townie D1 is not the end of the world, however we want to do everything in our power to make sure we nail scum if we can.

You've made it quite clear that it's not really a big deal to you if we lynch scum or town on the first day. Now to be fair, if a lynch turns up townie that does give us more insight into who is scum. We can better analyse the lynched townie thoughts and know for 100% that it was a townie's thoughts, and who pushed for the lynch ie. who seemd to

know

they were lynching a townie? So yes, I'm willing to concede it isn't game breaking.

Completely agree with this.

[charter]

All I can say is that Doc is one of the best claims a scum can make. I want to see what happens for now.

No it isn't. If I were scum fishing for a safe claim I'd pick miller or bulletproof.

If it makes you feel any better, I was considering claiming cop to draw out the real one and fuck with the town but thought better of it.

This, to me, means "I'm mafia. I'm going to roleclaim to try and save myself. The fact that he was thinking of impersonating the cop is ridiculous to me. There's no possible way lynching you is the wrong course of action. In all likelyhood, you're scum, because you're doing a great job of acting like it. If you are a townie. I highly doubt you're the doctor, and you're lying to the rest of us, and you'll make the town self destruct.

I wasn't really thinking you were scum until you posted that. I don't really believe the claim, and I certainly don't think you're a townie.

vote deepthought

[charter]

I don't really think that liamcool's post you quoted HeH really constitutes mentioning (though mentioning in "any way, shape, or form" like infinitive wrote, I suppose it would. So I guess he is twisting the truth a bit like you said). It seems, to me anyhow, that it's just the precursor to jumping on the bandwagon with reservations. He didn't generate any new suspicions about deepthought, just reiterated what everyone else had been saying, while also saying, he's only 60% sure that deepthought is scum. By far low enough to shift his vote elsewhere should another, stronger lynch wagon form form on xxxx, and just claim, well, I wasn't entirely sure he was scum, but I'm sure xxxx is scum.

I still think there's no possible way deepthought can have this town's best interest in mind, with his speculating making false claims as a townie. Making false claims ONLY ever makes sense if you're scum, and for him to think about it, I believe he's scum.

[charter]

Anyways, this is my case against Liam. I think he is scumbuddies with DT. I think that, if we do not wish to risk killing the doctor tonight, a good examination of Liam is a good option, andI believe he is the way to go for today's lynch, not so much because of himself, but I feel that his interactions with DT will make for an interesting D2 discussion, if we know Liam's alignment.

I don't know about liam, if we lynch him and he turns out to be scum, then deepthought is almost certainly scum as well. If he turns out to be town, he really hasn't given us anything to go with. Deepthought, on the other hand, has said lots of his own ideas and has had interactions with many people. liamcool has had a few mediocre posts, and hasn't really clashed with anyone.

This is just my thinking on where we'd be tomorrow if we lynch liamcool. I'm not advocating against lynching him, because he's my number two suspect, but I think that deepthought's doctor claim and mentioning thinking of claiming the cop makes me think that he is neither the doctor nor cop, and good reasoning tells me that plain townies would take a lynch rather than false roleclaim, so this leaves him as scum.

[charter]

Glad it's over, I was purposely avoiding posting because I don't have the time in my day to be part of a flamefest.

I still don't think deepthought is the doctor. He admitted to thinking about which role to claim. He has yet to explain this, and I don't see how he can, but you're welcome to try me. Because of this, I still think he's scum.

Now the people of the hour, DLS and DS. DLS's mannerisims have seemed a bit strange, and perhaps the message she was trying to convey got misconstrued, but she's strange in a way that does not further the cause of any imaginable scum agenda. I'm leaning to her innocence at this moment.

As for you DS, I can see your point of view, I'd rather vote for a jerk than someone I got along with, and if two people are scummy, you gotta vote for one right, so why not the jerk? Perfectly reasonable logic.

To be honest, do you feel perhaps some of the things you said to be out of line, "Jerkish" perhaps? By your logic, it would encourage people to vote for you. Having said that, I also feel you are innocent.

Glad to have you guys focusing on scumhunting again

At this point, I'm leaning towards both being town. I doubt scum would attract attention like that to accomplish nothing.

If I had to snap the ball right this minute I'd say Infinitive, DS, and liamcool, so

vote Infinitive

Is this just a hunch as to who you think are scum? Or would you like to explain why you voted for infinitive?

[charter]

Is this just a hunch as to who you think are scum? Or would you like to explain why you voted for infinitive?

I already did. Feel free to read it whenever.

I did. You provided your thoughts on every player, and infinitive and DS got no more mention than anyone else. You didn't seem to have a very good case against either, but still say that "infinitive and DS are scummier than an algae factory" yet you don't back this up very well. liamcool is bundled with the other lurkers and somehow you just pick him out of thin air? What happened to nikon and vampyrelord? Why don't they deserve equal suspicion?

Can you explain why Infinitive, myself, and liamcool are your mafia suspects? Also, why did you vote Infinitive?

I asked the same first question and he just dodged it, poorly, but I also want to know why infinitive over the others you find suspicious. And besides liamcool, I don't think any of your suspects are registering on anyone else's radar, so you might want to try a little harder to convince us to vote them rather than you.

[charter]

You didn't seem to have a very good case against either, but still say that "infinitive and DS are scummier than an algae factory" yet you don't back this up very well.

What exactly are you waiting for, someone to roleclaim scum? I gave you my impressions of each player and those three are the ones that looked scummiest at that point - I picked Infinitive because he hasn't said anything for a while. If you agree that liamcool looks scummy, vote him and I'll join in. Doesn't make any particular difference.

So you just have your "impressions" of everyone? You're not going on anything but your hunches?

I don't know why other people are letting you off the hook. You haven't explained anything scummy you've done, you haven't hunted for scum, you haven't made many significant contributions to the town, most of your posts are meaningless tripe, and you don't ever explain your posts when someone questions them. You just say something like "I already addressed this" or something else to dodge speculation about you.

[charter]

The cop needs to do what they think is best. On one hand, I'd strongly recommend investigating DT if we decide to lynch someone else, even though this may waste an investigation

Investigating DT is an utter waste. Even if the cop is sane, and finds DT is a townie or doc, the cop won't be able to convince the town DT isn't scum without blatently revealing himself, which would be stupid unless he has scum to reveal as well.

On the other hand, I'd say don't listen to me and make up your own mind, because if the scum know what your gonna do, then they can plan accordingly, like if they know your going to investigate DT, then they'll be forced to NK him if he is indeed the doc.

I'd say don't listen to you too.

I feel uncomfortable saying this (j/k), but... I agree with Deepthought for once.

Liam has been rather scummy and flew right under my radar. He seems, to me, to be about as scummy as Deepthought is. However, I'm going to stick on DT for the moment because, given that the two of them are more or less equally scummy in my eyes, there is rather more public scrutiny on DT right now.

Of course DT is going to find the next most suspicious person and try and make them look as guilty as possible. He doesn't want to get lynched, and making someone look scummier than you is a good way to save yourself for a day or two. I also agree that liam hasn't helped the town, but I'd chalk most of his doings up to being a newbie or stupid. It just hasn't struck me as scummy.

I've been very busy, and this week isn't going to be any different, so I won't be able to post very much.

[charter]

Can I ask who believes DT is the doctor and who doesn't?

I don't think he's the doctor. He admitted to thinking about which role to claim, and wound up with doctor because no one would prove him otherwise.

[charter]

@Nudude, liamcool, Thanatos, charter and Disciple Slayer.

Could you guys all give me a post on why your voting for DT?

Pretty much all my posts for the last few days have been on this. The fact that he has to decide which role to claim to try and save himself when he's created a mountain of suspicion on himself. No townie would fake a power role to save their own skin. They should do what's best for the town and just take the lynch rather than lie to the rest of the town. It also makes me not believe his claim.

(hypothetical situation: DT is pro-town).If we don't lynch DT, I doubt the scum/SK? will NK him because he is so suspicous already, we'll probably lynch him tommorrow, giving the scum another townie-kill.

I can't imagine any other situation than this if we don't lynch DT today. The scum would have to be crazy to murder him when several people have said they'll lynch him tomorrow if he survives tonight.

stuff

You seem to have avoided talking about me altogether (aside from "Thanatos is slightly scummier than DT"), and surely you realize this looks like you trying to avoid a bandwagon you know is going to turn sour at the end of the day.

I propose a trade: you tell everyone what exactly you think of me and why, and I'll expand my case against liamcool.

Try expanding your case against liamcool. You're already in a bad position. I also like how you keep labeling the truckload of valid suspicions against you a "bandwagon".

QFT

Try expanding your case against liamcool. You're already in a bad position. I also like how you keep labeling the truckload of valid suspicions against you a "bandwagon".

Do you expect a vampire lord to uphold his end of a bargain after the fact?

Because I don't.

How is this anything but a blatent dodge of answering his request? You do this all the time to all kinds of requests. No one else seems to pick up on it and find it to be even more suspicious of you though...

[charter]

Okay, continuing thoughts on various people that need to be examined:
Liamcool: for all the stuff that we were talking about yesterday; we now know that DT was town, and he was MAJORLY suspicious of Liam. I think Liam deserves going over with a magnifying glass, but that's just me.

Thanatos: Thanatos kind of took over the lead on the bandwagon from HEH when he dropped into the game. From there, he posited a number of theories that turned out to be false, all of which served to make DT look scummy. I think Than deserves a very close examination

I agree a lot with these two assessments, the other ones, maybe not as much. Just curious, but why did you leave me off of your list?

I'll admit too, I didn't buy DT's claim one bit, and I was convinced he was scum. I'll definately be a little more thorough before I form conclusions today. I'm also going to go back over the thread to try and figure out what DT was thinking.

[charter]

Uhh... Than, I think you just voted for yourself. Maybe you messed up on the vote tags? Just an observation.

And Charter, I keep neglecting to put you on lists because you somehow manage to fly under my radar no matter what you do. I think this is the third time I've had to do a double-take to realize you're even in the game. Maybe an avatar would help that some. Anyway, Charter probably deserves some examination for his participation in the bandwagon, but I honestly can't remember a thing he's done. I need to go back and read some more before I start pushing people again.

I find this disturbing. I didn't realize I was invisible like that. I'll have more time to step it up in a day or so when I finally get on break.

[charter]

Ok, I went back and looked at deepthoughts posts from day one, to see who got on and off his wagon and to try and figure out what he was thinking, now that we know he was the doctor. Here it is

28- Finds nududes suggestion of lurker hunting odd and seems to find him a little suspicious

large gap in his meaningful posts (including everything relating to SK)

102- Finds a post of DLS's scummy. Now that I reread it, even though it's meant to be a sarcastic post, it could be made out to look like a joke, anyhow, I find it HIGHLY scummy as well. She thinks in 101 that HeH and DT are scum buddies. Who got lynched yesterday? Who got killed last night? Quite the remarkable coincidence to me.

108- Goes after nudude again saying that nudude is jumping on DTs wagon
115- 75% chance of SK being a townie post
121- Responds to gorgons calling his knowledge of 3 scum into question. Asks infinitive why he's hesitant to jump on his bandwagon.
126- Slight argument with DLS
129- Defending his 75% against nududes questioning with his experience
138- Explains his abrasiveness and says HeH and me are the only ones looking for scum, not people we disagree with.
140-145- Tries to explain difference of opinion to thanatos.

small fight with DS

171- Subtly hints at being doctor with scrubbs post
188- Comments on a DS post
195- His post stating he was considering other roles to claim to "fuck with the town"... What an idiotic post on his part...
200- Defending his claim.
219- Says DS is "not a very good scum"

It's basically an attempt to throw the game and is terribly unsportsmanlike.

Hence the reason I decided against it. I have no beef with Num, and it wouldn't be fair to screw up his game while he's putting good effort into making it enjoyable. The rest of you, on the other hand, made it a pretty tempting idea. If more of you had moved beyond shitting on your keyboards and spell-checking the results, and started thinking about the arguments on their merits, maybe the wagon would've turned out differently. Who knows.

Personally I think Infinitive and Disciple Slayer are both scummier than an algae factory, and here are my thoughts:

SK / Thanatos

- I'd lean town. On the one hand, he's pushed to keep the day focused on a single easy lynch target before and after the roleclaim, coming right out and saying "let's let the lurkers come and finish him off." That's potentially an effort to distance himself from the end of the wagon, force lurking townies into making themselves look more suspicious (by dropping the hammer on a townie, and a power role at that) to set up a progression of lynches, and get rid of the one person willing to accuse him.

On the other, he came right into the game blazing with a vote on shaky reasoning, and I imagine a replacement scum would more carefully consider the potential backfire (accusations of OMGUS voting, overeager play, so on and down the line). It reads to me more like a townie wondering, "how can he possibly think I'm scum when

I

know I'm confirmed town?!" than a scum looking for a strategic kill.

HeH

- I'd lean town, with reservations. My initial impression was "only guy in the game that knows what he's doing", so even though I was on the fence for a while I was content to leave him be on the theory that he'd be the most fun to play against later on if he were scum. That said, he was one of two players during the asshole-wagon to explicitly slow down with, "think about what he's saying on the big-picture merits", which is a happy medium between the two scummier (and more common) arguments: "I agree with everyone else's suspicions, vote" and "guys, let's be careful we don't vote off a townie".

charter

- About on par with HeH, if a little shakier. Willing to step back and examine the merits of the asshole-wagon in a very "I'm not sure how deepthought is actually aligned"-esque way, but also seems very snipey with his comments. A shot from the wings here, another there.

Lord Nikon

- Probably an idiot vanilla townie that got his role, played for a few days, figured his role wasn't important enough to need to tell anyone he didn't feel like playing anymore, and took off. If he played that way as scum and I were a mod, personally I'd blacklist him from future games, but that's neither here nor there.

Nudude

- I'd say overeager newbie town.

VampyreLord, liamcool, and Lord Nikon

- Each deserve a big red avatar that says "PUSSY" until they grow a pair and stop lurking, but unfortunately you can't buy those here. Odds say one of them is probably scum, and I'd start with VL and liamcool.

DLS and Gorgon

- Coinflips.

Disciple Slayer

- During the asshole-wagon, interjects just often enough to not be lurking but not often enough to be noticed, and without any substance beyond "I need more info" or "I'm confused, check back later". Jumps on the bandwagon claiming my attitude is "pissing him off" despite the fact that he hasn't actually interacted with anyone in a meaningful way, after it's becomes clear that the wagon is a safe bet, but not before testing the waters with an FoS that he can't be held accountable for. My #2 pick.

Infinitive

- Read through post #117; you couldn't make those arguments any more vague if you

tried

. Agrees with the suspicions posted of me but doesn't jump on the wagon, potentially afraid of being called out for it - even pre-emptively deflects suspicion by saying this is all intentional and links to some stupid "how to be a good townie" thing to allay suspicion in the opening. Hasn't offered an original thought this entire game, I don't think, despite posting more regularly than others.

310- Votes for infinitive, thinks infinitive, DS, and liamcool are scum
311- Explains his two reads on nudude
315- Dodges my questioning of his vote on infinitive
322- Semi explains my questioning of him
329- Everyone makes mistakes, scum more likely to panic
353- Says the cop investigating him at night would be a waste
360- Says he's waiting to be nightkilled. Another idiot post...
365- More of him being in a lose-lose situation
369- Says he votes off intuition
371- More discussion with thanatos over possible day two scenerios
394- Tons of evidence against liamcool, looks pretty solid
397- Cop discussion with gorgon and votes for liamcool
431- Questions infinitives vote for liamcool
432- Says VL isn't jumping on board because he knows DT isn't scum
442- More stuff against VL
467- His farewell post, pretty big, I'd suggest rereading it

[charter]

This was all formed during my reread of day one. I was really just concentrating on DTs posts and ignoring most of the rest.

HeH also calls into question nududes hesitance to lead in the lurker hunt in 109, despite his thinking it's the course of action to take (at that point in time).

laimcool was very suspicious at the beginning (around 140-150) because of his lurking, and not coming up with his own opinions. In 167 he blantently jumps on DTs bandwagon putting him at L-1 with virtually no explaination.

Around 430 when infinitive votes for liamcool, I think he liamcool thought that DT wasnt actually going to end up lynched, and he switched right over to liamcool when he even admitted to not finiding liamcool very suspicious. He just wanted to be on the next bandwagon early enough so as to avoid suspicion.

I'd normally find gorgons hammer vote to be suspicious, but in this case it came after DT had made his big last post and most (if not everyone) thought lynching DT was the best course of action, so it wasn't a hurry up and lynch him vote or anything.

Anyhow, after the reread, I also can't imagine how liamcool's scumminess has gone unquestioned thus far, so until he feels like explaining himself,

vote liamcool

[charter]

Beg pardon, Charter, i just want a little clarification, because I'm not sure if I need to explain myself or not.

Around 430 when infinitive votes for liamcool, I think he liamcool thought that DT wasnt actually going to end up lynched, and he switched right over to liamcool when he even admitted to not finiding liamcool very suspicious. He just wanted to be on the next bandwagon early enough so as to avoid suspicion.

Are you saying that I switched over to the next bandwagon or Liamcool did? Meh, regardless, I might as well explain myself, even though I'm pretty my vote post did that pretty well.

Hmmm, now that I go back and reread around 430, I can't find where infinitive voted for liamcool at all. I was basing it off of DTs post 431 and infinitives 429 where I guess I just infered it from infinitive's saying he's 90% sure DT is scum and I must of assumed this meant he would be voting for DT.

[charter]

Sorry for not posting sooner, was busy with school and thanksgiving (without power...).

Vote Count

Thanatos (2) - Gorgon, Disciple Slayer
liamcool (1) - charter
Disciple Slayer (1) - Thanatos

Not Voting (5) - Dark_Lady_Shaiann, liamcool, Infinitive, Nudude, VampyreLord

Which comment would that be?

And...yeah, your right.

I usually am.

Watch the egotism, it's not nice for anyone to read, it just makes people think you're an arsehole and makes the game unpleasant for everyone.

I just gave a PBPA and you FOS me for quoting the words of a dead townie? I think your reasoning is flawed. Here's a vote to pressure you into more information.

Vote: Thanatos

Now watch as DLS rushes to defend him in her next post.

I'm actually pretty suprised nobody picked up on this, while it's true we need more information, this seems a little drastic.

Post a good reply to my third and longest HeH quote and I might unvote you if you convince me. My vote was initially a pressure vote, but gut instinct tells me your reaction smells rather odd.

Blackmail, it appears that Disciple Slayer is taking a very aggressive approach, in my view, similar to what deepthought took, which obviously led to his death. Even if it is unlikely, I hope you realise this may lead to your own demise.

If this makes no sense, it's due to me not getting enough sleep recently. If you need to enquire about anything in it, feel free to ask me in about 12-14 hours from this post.

It makes sense, but is entirely pointless. Post something with even a sliver of content or scumhunting if you want me to take my vote off you and stop pushing for others to vote for you.

Also, due to recent evidence:

Vote: Dark_Lady_Shaiann

What evidence?

I was kind of wondering that myself. If you mean where she said she wasn't posting until everyone else posted, and then she did anyway, it was very obvious to me that it wasn't a "lie" she just had something to say and didn't feel like waiting on people like me busy with life.

Personally, I think DS is town. He's doing a LOT of looking for scum, though I don't really agree with all the points he's making, he is making a colossal effort. That said, I also think DLS and thanatos are also town based on how calmly they're handling his aggressive investigation.

I still think liamcool is scum for the reasons I mentioned before, he hasn't done anything to try and explain himself, or even acknowledge my existance. Unless Nudude grossly overeacted to DLS's posts, he'd be my number two suspect right now.

[charter]

Ooops, hadn't read page 25 when I made that last post, after reading it I do think nudude could be scum as well.

[charter]

Ooops, hadn't read page 25 when I made that last post, after reading it I do think nudude could be scum as well.

Can you tell us why?

His logic seemed a little flawed. I see nothing wrong with making big posts defending yourself when questioned, and I would expect anyone who is being investigated to do that to thoroughly convince the rest of us they aren't scum. I don't think it's scummy that DLS's biggest post is in her defense rather than scum hunting. I suppose I'd like everyones biggest post to be scumhunting, but don't find it suspcious if it isnt.

His vote on you seems like it was forced, like he wants to get the ball rolling on you. I was assuming that this was because he is scum, but he could be a cop and found you to be scum...

Now be fair, I am doing my fair share of discussion generating, and I will get around to my list of suspects, but for the moment I'd rather focus on one person at a time.

Could you at least just list them for us? If you don't want to focus on them that's fine, but someone else (myself since liamcool won't post) might want to.

I'd say that's a fair assesment. I like to think so far my questioning of DLS has been logical. If you or anyone finds a flaw in my logic, then by all means point it out so we can discuss it.

I'd say the biggest thing I don't like that you're doing is honing in on solely DLS. I suppose it's mostly because I don't think she's scum, so I feel your efforts are being wasted. However, you're making more sense in my eyes. I'm not really seeing you as very scummy anymore.

Now, onto my question, and it's a fairly simple one. I have for some time been an advocate of examining Liamcool, and still contend that he is almost certainly scum. However, he has in a very real way ducked under the table on day 2, and as such have given us little to work with, or to provoke discussion. My question is this: Why do you find DLS or Thanatos (as you were questioning both) to be more suspicious than Liamcool? Liam was DT's prime suspect, and HEH also commented a couple of times on the troubling behavior he exhibited. I can't speak for Insurgent, as he wasn't here for long, but it seems to me that the scummiest person to survive day 1 was unquestionably Liamcool (as our suspicion of Thanatos mostly stems from the sour lynch), and I'm honestly surprised that more people aren't interested in investigating him.

I'm trying to, but he hasn't shown up in a while and I've made all the case I can from him until he says something else. He's definately my number one suspect right now, and unless he totally changes his play, he's going to stay there.

Ok.....I had a nice little speech prepared in response to your post, but when I went back up to read it again for like the third time, I noticed something.

It's because it's a long post in defense of yourself, and if you read my post fully, you see it is NOT why I voted for you, but evidence for the reason I voted for you, which is it seems the only time you make substainsial posts is to defend yourself.

I vote for you because you put lots of energy on defending yourself, and very little into scum hunting.

OK, reasons and evidence are almost the same thing. Basically you took it into account when you decided to vote me, so it's a reason, not the only reason, but it's in there somewhere. Thats a discussion DS and I had quite a few times aswell.....

I can only translate this as me defending myself didn't at first make you want to vote me, but now that your second reason is gone, it is obviously enough now. Did you ever maybe consider that defense is the greatest offense? I have never slipt up in my explinations/defenses or whatever the Hell you want to call them, but both you and DS have slipt in your attacks against me, and admitted it. I think I might be on to something here.

You're really just building his case against you. I'm actually starting to see what he's saying, about how you don't look for scum, just defend everything said about you.

[charter]

Vote Count

Thanatos (3)

- Gorgon, Disciple Slayer, VampyreLord
liamcool (2) - charter, Thanatos
Dark_Lady_Shaiann (1) - Nudude

Not Voting (3) - Dark_Lady_Shaiann, Infinitive, liamcool

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch

VL's post seems like it was concocted in about a minute, where he just picks random posts by people to quote and give a meaningless opinion about them. He quotes half the people playing but doesn't say anything substantial about one of them. His vote seems unbased to me. He doesn't make a cohesive case against anyone, but makes half a dozen terrible cases against random people.

Ooops, hadn't read page 25 when I made that last post, after reading it I do think nudude could be scum as well.

This is a pretty idiotic and spur of the moment thing too, but I'll let it go as maybe you were rushing to make a post or something.

I just didn't check to see if I'd gotten to the end of the thread, I just stopped at the bottom of page 24. After reading 25, All I really had to add was added suspicion of nudude, which is pretty much gone now.

I think we should lean more towards people like Gorgon and charter (in terms of questioning and investigating, anyway). In this day, all they've done is accuse me of being scum, with a lot of emphasis on me and very little on anybody else (compartively). Also, charter has flown under nearly everyone's scumdar, which Infinitive commented on twice, early in the day on posts 495 and 502. Gorgon, though, I'm less suspicious of, because although he did seem to be very focused on killing me earlier, he has gone on to discuss other people.

There's a good reason all I've done is accuse you of being scum, you're the most suspicious person and you're doing a poor job of explaining yourself. I don't really think I need to build three seperate cases at the same time, one or maybe two should suffice for today. Just because I'm not going after everyone else, doesn't mean I'm not forming opinions on what I think their role is.

Charter, on the other hand, just continuously, needlessly, suspects me.

It's needless to suspect you? Alarm bells are ringing.

In 544, he fabricates facts based on some misunderstanding he made with not reading Infinitive's posts on day 1.

Beg pardon, Charter, i just want a little clarification, because I'm not sure if I need to explain myself or not.

Around 430 when infinitive votes for liamcool, I think he liamcool thought that DT wasnt actually going to end up lynched, and he switched right over to liamcool when he even admitted to not finiding liamcool very suspicious. He just wanted to be on the next bandwagon early enough so as to avoid suspicion.

Are you saying that I switched over to the next bandwagon or Liamcool did? Meh, regardless, I might as well explain myself, even though I'm pretty my vote post did that pretty well.

Hmmm, now that I go back and reread around 430, I can't find where infinitive voted for liamcool at all. I was basing it off of DTs post 431 and infinitives 429 where I guess I just infered it from infinitive's saying he's 90% sure DT is scum and I must of assumed this meant he would be voting for DT.

(more to come later as thoughts continue to come to my head. Is double posting under these circumstances accepted or not?)

I think we already went over this...

[charter]

@liamcool, if you want people that "fly under the radar" try looking at VL. He has a whopping 18 posts, about a third of them don't add anything to the town's pool of knowledge, and another third are (at least to me) trivial and don't help the town find scum. He has maybe five posts I'd say that have some slim scumhunting in them. He hasn't done any scumhunting since he posted some vague suspicions around the random vote phase.

I really don't have a read at all on him because he's been a non-factor in the game so far. He also really hasn't said anything for me to react to, so I guess I'll just ask you (VL) to post some substantial information on who you think are scum, and also elaborate (a lot) on why you're voting for thanatos.

[charter]

First, I'm gonna role-claim as cop. I'm doing this because I inspected liamcool last night and he was innocent. People look like they're close on lynching him, and I don't want to lynch another town.
And Thanatos, where'd your vote move? The top of 26 says it's on DS, and it hasn't been changed since then as far as I can see...

Yeah, that was incredibly stupid. Oh well, time to go off and look for scum elsewhere.

[charter]

unvote liamcool

until further review. Kind of late right now.

[charter]

I don't really see how we can assess whether or not he's the real cop. I don't think he's given us enough to be able to distinguish if he's telling the truth or not. That said, I guess I have no choice but to believe him, but I do find it highly odd that he's going to save the two most suspicious people (in my mind anyways).

[charter]

I believe the claim. I'm not the cop and I had no clue as to who was before this, and I can't find a shred of evidence suggesting otherwise, so it's probably true. That being said, of the people I can vote for, there's

DLS
DS
infinitive
nudude
gorgon

I think I'll go back over the thread and look for some clues.

[charter]

Did you forget me, Charter, or do you not think I'm scum?

Ah crap, I just went to the first page and copied the alive players but didn't get you because SK's name was crossed out. But yes, you're also on my list of people to investigate.

[charter]

I don't really buy your theory infinitive. Nothing VL has done this game makes me believe he's capable of concocting such an elaborate plan. I think he's just inexperienced and claimed far too early. Also, I'm of the belief that there is mafia (probably three) and a SK, so if even if we do lynch a townie today, there's a pretty good chance the SK will hit scum tonight, which would give us more time I believe. Of course, if we don't have a SK then none of what I just said matters.

I'll agree, it was very dumb, but unless someone can find some evidence that VL is actually mafia and not just inexperienced, I'm going to continue looking elsewhere.

[charter]

Vote Count

Dark_Lady_Shaiann (3)

- Nudude, Disciple Slayer, Thanatos
Thanatos (2) - Gorgon, VampyreLord

Not Voting (4) - Dark_Lady_Shaiann, Infinitive, liamcool, charter

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch

DS does make strong arguments against DLS, and she does not seem to have the town's best interest in mind, but your vote thanatos strikes me as scummy. I went back and reread day two, and you don't seem to find her suspicious at all, until DS made his slew of posts. You do justify it, but I think you just want a bandwagon to form on her. Before DS posts, I was fairly sure that DLS was a townie, but I find it troubling that he's managing to convince me DLS could be scum too.

Also on my reread of day two, at the beginning, you tried to distance yourself from the DT lynch. DT's lynch was due to his being a horrible doctor, not because you pointed out his scumminess. I don't see why you would try and get away from it like that if you weren't scum.

vote thanatos

Care to explain why today you're being a sheep and following DS, whereas yesterday you were the shepard?

[charter]

It just seems like you're letting DS do the arguing and you're just attaching your name to his case. I can understand that you think DLS is scummy, but you really hadn't said much about her before you voted her. You made it seem like you were trying give strength to the case against her without any negative consequences that would come if she gets lynched and she's town. The main reason I voted for you was your drastic change in play style without much explanation of it.

I was tempted to vote for DLS too, but I remembered how I'd thought she was town until the discussion of her not scumhunting and just defending came up, which is where my confidence in her being town started to waiver. With DS latest arguments, I'm not sure as to her role now.

[charter]

I'l have more thoughts later, (I have a movie to catch) but for the moment:

Unvote

It's likely there's at least two scum, and if they haven't voted they could hammer DLS, and I'm not ready for that yet.

Are you assuming there's no scum voting for her already?

[charter]

Ah, missed that, who's voting for her? Just DS and thanatos? We need one of those handy blue votecounts at the top of the page.

[charter]

Wait, I put her at L-1? I didn't notice that at all.

I think it was L-2, not really that sure though, but I completely didn't realize it's only five votes to get lynched today until just now.

[charter]

However, upon thinking about it further, I've decided a PBPA would be handy in this situation, on DLS. So, in a day or two, I'll go through and look for all her posts.

Depending on what you have in here, and how closely it resembles what I would have done, it will probably be enough to change my vote from you to her. She is now hardcore lurking, and her refusal to do scumhunting is making her seem more like scum than you. It's like she has no interest in finding scum, whereas you are somewhat trying.

[charter]

And counterclaim or not, I'm still not happy with the VL copclaim. Sorry.

By not happy do you mean you're not satisfied he's the cop? If so please tell me why. Or do you mean you're not satisfied that he claimed when he did?

[charter]

Yeah, I was working for like 40 hours straight a few days ago, tomorrow I should be (relatively) free and be able to do more posting.

[charter]

I'm not convinced DLS is the best lynch right now. I agree she hasn't been overly helpful to the town, but the only scummy thing she's done that's really stood out to me is this recent hardcore lurking she's been doing, despite being asked by others to try and find slip ups and what not.

[charter]

And when it comes to no-lynching, though it is an option I feel we need to treat that option just as if it was another player. Don't just throw it out there cause you think it would be a safe thing to do, we have to spend as much discussion on that just as we would any one else. Generally, I don't believe a no-lynch is a good idea, but though what Gorgon says is true, (not lynching gives us no information), the night kill(s) will. Though definetly not as desired as a lynch, it's information all the same. Besides, it's not like our previous lynch was very helpful to us. Why risk killing our own when we can have them do it for us and then increase the chances of us hitting them?

This statement screams serial killer to me. So much so that,

unvote thanatos, vote DLS

Why risk killing our own when we can have them do it for us? Because if two more townies die tonight, we're left with 7 alive, in all likelyhood 3 or 4 of them will be mafia/SK/other threats to the town and that could lead to an impossible to win situation for the town. I see no chance that VL will live until tomorrow, and without trying to lynch scum today, I don't have much hope that we can win.

[charter]

And when it comes to no-lynching, though it is an option I feel we need to treat that option just as if it was another player. Don't just throw it out there cause you think it would be a safe thing to do, we have to spend as much discussion on that just as we would any one else. Generally, I don't believe a no-lynch is a good idea, but though what Gorgon says is true, (not lynching gives us no information), the night kill(s) will. Though definetly not as desired as a lynch, it's information all the same. Besides, it's not like our previous lynch was very helpful to us. Why risk killing our own when we can have them do it for us and then increase the chances of us hitting them?

Why do I think this comes from the SK? I suppose it could be either SK or scum, but the way you said it makes me believe SK and not mafia. You start out by saying no lynching is option we need to consider. Then say it's not really a good idea. Then say our last lynch was a disastor so why not try not lynching. You've pushed for all three possibilities with not lynching (considering it, not doing it, doing it) but don't commit to any. You're testing the waters to see if anyone else will follow you with a no lynch (which I believe is bad). If you were mafia, you know you could count on at least another person, probably two, so you wouldn't need to be so hesitant to commit, because you know others will follow you. Also makes me think you aren't a mason.

Not lynching will not help us at all. Who do you think will die tonight? I'd be amazed if VL lives through the night. As far as I'm concerned, we already know VL and liamcool are townies. I don't go through the day thinking, well I can't be positive this person is mafia, so I'm just going to wait around and do nothing (not lynching). This logic will leave us in the same place tomorrow, except we will have lost a chance of killing scum. How will you be able to make a better informed decision tomorrow? The only prayer of a chance is if there's a SK and they kill scum tonight. If not, we will just lose another townie.

Also, if the second kill is a serial killer or a vig, he/she might not kill since both would lose when the Mafia wins.

Not so sure of this. They would need to hit mafia in order to keep their chances of winning alive, but if we lynch a mafia today and they hit one tonight, the chances of us winning is really good I'd say.

Why couldn't he have grilled some one else in the mean time anyway?

Yeah, I'd say you're not pro town. Relying on others to question people. If nudude is scum, then what? You're going to base your vote off what he wants you to, unless you're scum too and you don't mind.

At this point, I'm not sure if you're a SK or scum, but you still need to get lynched sooner rather than later.

[charter]

Actually, I never said we needed to consider it.

And when it comes to no-lynching, though it is an option I feel we

need

to treat that option just as if it was another player.

Hmmmm....

You explained to me that it's not a very good choice, so I'm not persuing it, but then again, I never was. Basically, you voted me for being ambiguous, not for seemingly wanting a no-lynch.

Strengthening my vote is you saying we didn't need to consider it, when you clearly did.

And I'm not relying on others to question people for me, only pointing out that Nudude has vanished since he is under the impression that DS will not be back until Wed (tomorrow) and it makes me wonder why he couldn't have just skipped DS for now and gone on to some one else, or stayed around and joined in the discussion that is going on now. It makes me wonder if he really has plans to question any one else, despite the fact he said he had a few people he wanted to talk to. His absense means to me that he isn't really intrested in hearing anything else at the moment, or that Nudude is aware DS is back and hasn't finished puting his case together.

I agree it's odd that nudude seems to have dropped his interogation, you still aren't questioning anybody, so I still do believe you're relying on others to do the questioning for you.

[charter]

charter: Correct me if I'm wrong (and by all means do so, I couldn't help but skim some parts of this thread), but I had a very hard time finding anything you posted something that casts suspision on Thanatos or DS. Could be nothing, or it could be your trying to avoid getting a discussion going on them.

I disagreed with DS early in the game, and he was trying to escalate matters, so I just dropped it. I think that if I'd persued, it would have been me and him making the shitstorm rather than DLS, something that I didn't want, and didn't have time to argue like that. I did recently vote for thanatos, before I voted for DLS. If anything I'd say I've completely avoided Gorgon. I really can't find anything against him. I looked at the beginning of day one, but I couldn't get a strong town or scum feel.

[charter]

I don't think VL and Liamcool should be thrown off of our scum lists just yet. Ifinitive mentioned earlier something about a powerplay, and I think that needs to be considered.

I don't know about others, but at least for me, I can't imagine VL making up the plan that someone (I forget who) suggested. Plus, it feels like he's telling the truth. That, coupled with the fact that no one has produced one shred of evidence to the contrary, makes me believe him.

[charter]

Meh, I am sort of leaning towards no-lynch at this point... But I dunno. Me still thinks thanatos is the scummiest.

You can't contribute any more than this? It's a shame I believe you're the cop, or we could just lynch you.