Mini 523 - Game Over!

[liamcool]

Vote Count

Dark_Lady_Shaiann (3)

- Disciple Slayer, Thanatos, charter
Thanatos (2) - Gorgon, VampyreLord

Not Voting (4) - Dark_Lady_Shaiann, Infinitive, liamcool, Nudude

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch

Mod, are we allowed to vote No Vote in this game or not?

What exactly do you propose to accomplish with lynching no one? The only thing that happens is that tomorrow, we will have one or two dead people ... probably the people who are most helpful to the town. Lynching yields valuable information every time ... not lynching yields no information.

However, no lynch is sometimes an option. I'm not just sure this is a situation where it's justified ...

This said, I'm hard pressed to pick anyone I would definitely want to lynch at this point ...

Actually, it was just a theoretical question.

[Dark_Lady_Shaiann]

Wait...how does my question 'scream serial killer'? O.o

[Infinitive]

Well, I will speak up in the interests of fairness: there IS a potential gain to voting No Vote today; as I've pointed out before, a mislynch today could end the game outright (presuming both NKs hit town for whatever reason). I vote for caution overall; don't dismiss any option out of hand, please.

If nothing else, a no lynch today gives us tomorrow, guaranteed. OTOH, we're in a bad position for the rest of the game. All of that's in the FWIW category.

[Thanatos]

Also, if the second kill is a serial killer or a vig, he/she might not kill since both would lose when the Mafia wins.

[Dark_Lady_Shaiann]

So, I see Nudude decided to take a vacation waiting for DS even though DS said he was already back......

Why couldn't he have grilled some one else in the mean time anyway?

[charter]

And when it comes to no-lynching, though it is an option I feel we need to treat that option just as if it was another player. Don't just throw it out there cause you think it would be a safe thing to do, we have to spend as much discussion on that just as we would any one else. Generally, I don't believe a no-lynch is a good idea, but though what Gorgon says is true, (not lynching gives us no information), the night kill(s) will. Though definetly not as desired as a lynch, it's information all the same. Besides, it's not like our previous lynch was very helpful to us. Why risk killing our own when we can have them do it for us and then increase the chances of us hitting them?

Why do I think this comes from the SK? I suppose it could be either SK or scum, but the way you said it makes me believe SK and not mafia. You start out by saying no lynching is option we need to consider. Then say it's not really a good idea. Then say our last lynch was a disastor so why not try not lynching. You've pushed for all three possibilities with not lynching (considering it, not doing it, doing it) but don't commit to any. You're testing the waters to see if anyone else will follow you with a no lynch (which I believe is bad). If you were mafia, you know you could count on at least another person, probably two, so you wouldn't need to be so hesitant to commit, because you know others will follow you. Also makes me think you aren't a mason.

Not lynching will not help us at all. Who do you think will die tonight? I'd be amazed if VL lives through the night. As far as I'm concerned, we already know VL and liamcool are townies. I don't go through the day thinking, well I can't be positive this person is mafia, so I'm just going to wait around and do nothing (not lynching). This logic will leave us in the same place tomorrow, except we will have lost a chance of killing scum. How will you be able to make a better informed decision tomorrow? The only prayer of a chance is if there's a SK and they kill scum tonight. If not, we will just lose another townie.

Also, if the second kill is a serial killer or a vig, he/she might not kill since both would lose when the Mafia wins.

Not so sure of this. They would need to hit mafia in order to keep their chances of winning alive, but if we lynch a mafia today and they hit one tonight, the chances of us winning is really good I'd say.

Why couldn't he have grilled some one else in the mean time anyway?

Yeah, I'd say you're not pro town. Relying on others to question people. If nudude is scum, then what? You're going to base your vote off what he wants you to, unless you're scum too and you don't mind.

At this point, I'm not sure if you're a SK or scum, but you still need to get lynched sooner rather than later.

[Dark_Lady_Shaiann]

Actually, I never said we needed to consider it. I said if anyone did decide to consider it and it started a discussion, we need to make sure that we do it properly. I don't think that a no-lynch is a good idea, but since we failed so miserably D1, I was only wondering how it would work out if we didn't lynch any one at all D2. You explained to me that it's not a very good choice, so I'm not persuing it, but then again, I never was. Basically, you voted me for being ambiguous, not for seemingly wanting a no-lynch.


And I'm not relying on others to question people for me, only pointing out that Nudude has vanished since he is under the impression that DS will not be back until Wed (tomorrow) and it makes me wonder why he couldn't have just skipped DS for now and gone on to some one else, or stayed around and joined in the discussion that is going on now. It makes me wonder if he really has plans to question any one else, despite the fact he said he had a few people he wanted to talk to. His absense means to me that he isn't really intrested in hearing anything else at the moment, or that Nudude is aware DS is back and hasn't finished puting his case together.

Oh, and as far as who I think will die tonight, I'm definetly not answering that question. No matter what I say I will get myself in trouble. To question some one about who will and will not die opens up very easy next day lynch targets for scum, by munipulating what that person said, and who actually did get night killed.

[Dark_Lady_Shaiann]

Oh, and about my first sentence in that last post, the key word is 'needed'. Put emphasis on that word.....

[charter]

Actually, I never said we needed to consider it.

And when it comes to no-lynching, though it is an option I feel we

need

to treat that option just as if it was another player.

Hmmmm....

You explained to me that it's not a very good choice, so I'm not persuing it, but then again, I never was. Basically, you voted me for being ambiguous, not for seemingly wanting a no-lynch.

Strengthening my vote is you saying we didn't need to consider it, when you clearly did.

And I'm not relying on others to question people for me, only pointing out that Nudude has vanished since he is under the impression that DS will not be back until Wed (tomorrow) and it makes me wonder why he couldn't have just skipped DS for now and gone on to some one else, or stayed around and joined in the discussion that is going on now. It makes me wonder if he really has plans to question any one else, despite the fact he said he had a few people he wanted to talk to. His absense means to me that he isn't really intrested in hearing anything else at the moment, or that Nudude is aware DS is back and hasn't finished puting his case together.

I agree it's odd that nudude seems to have dropped his interogation, you still aren't questioning anybody, so I still do believe you're relying on others to do the questioning for you.

[Gorgon]

I agree that DLS's post about the no lynch is very vague and seems to pretty much leave all the options open, while still subtly pushing towards an actual no lynch. Could this be because she had two votes on her? Or because Thanatos had three votes (and that she was trying to protect him for a lynch, as her scumbuddy)? Quite possibly.

However, DLS brings up an interesting point about Nudude. Why couldn't he just post something on people other than DS, instead of waiting on him to respond while encouraging others to post?

But still ...

I agree it's odd that nudude seems to have dropped his interogation, you still aren't questioning anybody, so I still do believe you're relying on others to do the questioning for you.

QFT on this one.

Oh, and as far as who I think will die tonight, I'm definetly not answering that question. No matter what I say I will get myself in trouble. To question some one about who will and will not die opens up very easy next day lynch targets for scum, by munipulating what that person said, and who actually did get night killed.

I think that was mostly a rhetorical question from charter, and your attitude still seems suspiciously paranoid. How could this be used against you, assuming you're town? By scum killing whomever you think will die tonight? That's just a little too far-fetched, IMO. I myself don't usually read much into nightkills; I especially avoid trying to draw conclusions about who the scum might be from them, as I believe that's usually a fruitless endeavour, since the scum have perfect control over their kills and can try to set up any game of manipulation they want through that method. I believe I've addressed this before.

[Dark_Lady_Shaiann]

Actually, I never said we needed to consider it.

And when it comes to no-lynching, though it is an option I feel we

need

to treat that option just as if it was another player.

Hmmmm....

You explained to me that it's not a very good choice, so I'm not persuing it, but then again, I never was. Basically, you voted me for being ambiguous, not for seemingly wanting a no-lynch.

Strengthening my vote is you saying we didn't need to consider it, when you clearly did.

Actually, I never said we needed to consider it.

I said if anyone did decide to consider it and it started a discussion, we need to make sure that we do it properly.

You purposfully left that part out. I'm simply making sure every one is aware that a

no-vote is not a cop-out

, but something to be taken seriously. Simply, becuase I elaborated on the subject after it was brought up doesn't mean I'm going for it. Infinitive seems to think there could be a positive outcome if we did. Why not go argue with him? Why have you zeroed in on me for being fairly ambiguous, asking a question and then agreeing with your answer about a no-lynch?

[Dark_Lady_Shaiann]

Oh, and as far as who I think will die tonight, I'm definetly not answering that question. No matter what I say I will get myself in trouble. To question some one about who will and will not die opens up very easy next day lynch targets for scum, by munipulating what that person said, and who actually did get night killed.

I think that was mostly a rhetorical question from charter, and your attitude still seems suspiciously paranoid. How could this be used against you, assuming you're town? By scum killing whomever you think will die tonight? That's just a little too far-fetched, IMO. I myself don't usually read much into nightkills; I especially avoid trying to draw conclusions about who the scum might be from them, as I believe that's usually a fruitless endeavour, since the scum have perfect control over their kills and can try to set up any game of manipulation they want through that method. I believe I've addressed this before.

Yeah, I know it's far-fetched, but definetly plausable. There is just so much munipulation that could go on there, it would take me forever to write it out. It's all WIFOM. It almost feels like he was trying to set me up in a trap, knowing that suspisions about me are already kind of high. Rhetorical or not, he wanted to see if I would answer it.....

[Thanatos]

Charter: If we lynch correctly today, it's not Lylo, right? I was saying that if we misslynched tonight, and the Sk/vig hits town, we all lose, including him or her. If we hit today, or don't kill, then we will most likely get a second night kill.

Gorgon, DLS calling for the possibility of a no lynch is evidence for her being connected to me? Isn't that stretching it a bit?

When did Charter vote for me, again?

[Gorgon]

Infinitive seems to think there could be a positive outcome if we did. Why not go argue with him? Why have you zeroed in on me for being fairly ambiguous, asking a question and then agreeing with your answer about a no-lynch?

That's actually a good point. I'm guilty of ignoring that comment of his as well. I can only say that it didn't strike me as particularily suspicous; he was pointing out that a no lynch might possibly have merit, as you say yourself. He was clearer in his phrasing than you were, that's for sure.

Yeah, I know it's far-fetched, but definetly plausable. There is just so much munipulation that could go on there, it would take me forever to write it out. It's all WIFOM. It almost feels like he was trying to set me up in a trap, knowing that suspisions about me are already kind of high. Rhetorical or not, he wanted to see if I would answer it.....

I can see where you're coming from here, although I'm not sure I agree. At least, it didn't come off to me like that.

Gorgon, DLS calling for the possibility of a no lynch is evidence for her being connected to me? Isn't that stretching it a bit?

It's not evidence for anything, per se. It's just one possible explanation, based on an assumption that she's scum that has ulterior motives for wanting a no lynch. It's definitely stretching it a bit, but that's often how it goes in this game - you throw something out there to see the reaction.

[Dark_Lady_Shaiann]

I don't understand why people keep thinking that I want a no-lynch, or ever did......

I never said it.

[Nudude]

I apologise for my silence. I have to confess it was due to simple laziness on my part. It took me awhile to build up the energy to re-read the enitre thread.

These are the players as it stands:

Dark_Lady_Shaiann
Thanatos
Disciple Slayer
Infinitive
Nudude
Gorgon
charter

Now odds are (and emphasis that this is the most likely scenario, but not 100% certain and to base any deductions you make knowing that) VL and liamcool are town, or at the very least not the best lynches for today. Additionally, your suspect lists may include me, however as I'm sure you can appreciate, I'm not going to include myself, so the new list is:

Dark_Lady_Shaiann
Thanatos
Disciple Slayer
Infinitive
Gorgon
charter

Now lets assume there's three mafia, and one SK (I doubt we have a vig, or if we do they need to lay of the booze before they pick a target) that means odds are only two innocent people on that list.

DLS: Has essentially lurked all game, I'm leaning to scum in one form or another.

Thanatos: If you have a read over the thread, Thanatos has actually spear - headed very few investigations, and in actual fact only really jumped on bandwagons with his votes. The only time he placed the first vote was early today when he voted DS. It feels like to me you and DS had a chat in the night and decided you two would point fingers at each other early D2 to distance each other.

DS: You suspected Thanatos and DLS fairly strongly, and you've gone from strongly suspecting Thanatos to quietly accepting his vote on DLS. Every other time someone you suspected as being scummy did something, you would go into great detail and effort to show that why someone who was scum would act that way. Why have you suddenly lost interest in Thanatos?

Inifinitive: I feel you've been fairly unbiased this game. Your either a very good scum player or town. I need more to work with to figure you out.

Gorgon: Playing like Infinitive, but you seem a little more objective. Like infinitive I'm going to need more information, but I suspect I will figure you out sooner than Infinitive.

charter: Correct me if I'm wrong (and by all means do so, I couldn't help but skim some parts of this thread), but I had a very hard time finding anything you posted something that casts suspision on Thanatos or DS. Could be nothing, or it could be your trying to avoid getting a discussion going on them.

I know I promised to grill DS, But as I'm sure you can appreciate when scum knows your plan of attack, you've got to change tactics.

[Thanatos]

Nudude: I Think of all the things you can say about me, not scum hunting enough is not one of them. Besides DT, I've pushed hard against DS, and am the ONLY person actually examining DLS in an unbiased Isolation, and inviting people to talk about her. Right now, I AM leading the DLS wagon. Maybe not by pushing her, but actually looking at her posts.

[charter]

charter: Correct me if I'm wrong (and by all means do so, I couldn't help but skim some parts of this thread), but I had a very hard time finding anything you posted something that casts suspision on Thanatos or DS. Could be nothing, or it could be your trying to avoid getting a discussion going on them.

I disagreed with DS early in the game, and he was trying to escalate matters, so I just dropped it. I think that if I'd persued, it would have been me and him making the shitstorm rather than DLS, something that I didn't want, and didn't have time to argue like that. I did recently vote for thanatos, before I voted for DLS. If anything I'd say I've completely avoided Gorgon. I really can't find anything against him. I looked at the beginning of day one, but I couldn't get a strong town or scum feel.

[Dark_Lady_Shaiann]

I don't think VL and Liamcool should be thrown off of our scum lists just yet. Ifinitive mentioned earlier something about a powerplay, and I think that needs to be considered.

[charter]

I don't think VL and Liamcool should be thrown off of our scum lists just yet. Ifinitive mentioned earlier something about a powerplay, and I think that needs to be considered.

I don't know about others, but at least for me, I can't imagine VL making up the plan that someone (I forget who) suggested. Plus, it feels like he's telling the truth. That, coupled with the fact that no one has produced one shred of evidence to the contrary, makes me believe him.

[Thanatos]

Liam could be a Godfather, yes, but unless our real cop is a total retard, which VL couldn't count on, I need to believe he is what he is.

In any regard, he sure as hell isn't the kill for today.

[Infinitive]

Sorry for my general absence. This car nonsense is no fun. You all try and sell a '95 chevy cavalier with a busted head gasket while at the same time trying to get a decent car for under $4 grand. It is NO picnic.

I had mentioned the possibility of a power play, as DLS has noted, but (and here's the thing) it's been several pages since then and no cop has counterclaimed. That means that even I, at this point, am pretty sure that VL is the cop he says he is. Which makes me sad. Because we're probably not going to have a cop tomorrow.

Anyway, I've done my best to keep up with things here, and here's my short list of suspects:

Disciple Slayer

: He's added nothing to the game aside from a flame war and wild, unsupported accusations. He's utterly unpredictable, and seems almost manic-depressive. Still, despite prodding, he's done nothing for the town.

Dark Lady Shaiann

: Like DS, she's added absolutely nothing to the game besides a flame war and a lot of self-defense. In 31 pages (and 2 months) of gameplay, there's no scumhunting from her. Simply put, I don't like people who don't help the town.

Thanatos

: I'm sorry, but I've just seen too many coincidences with his name attached to believe that he's an innocent townie. Everyone he's pushed for seems to have turned out town (though I'll admit that I was in there as well), and he's been a vociferous advocate of just plain bad plans for the town.

Nudude

: This is a late addition, but I feel fairly confident in it. Nudude's been giving me a funny vibe all game, and in the past few pages that's turned into a full-fledged ping on my scumdar. Previously, he popped up every now and again with some thoughts and observations, but kept a pretty low profile. Now, he's being more active, but that activity is very offense-oriented, and seems to be more oriented at pushing people into a corner than starting discussion about them. Discussion = good for town. Lynching just because someone can't adequately explain a single thing = bad for town (as we saw on day 1).

Of those four, the two that stand out to me are DLS and Thanatos, for the reasons I mentioned just above. DS and Nudude are concerning to me, but less so than the other two- DS is largely ignorable whenever he DOES post, because in 31 pages of gameplay, he's contributed basically nothing to the game, so I feel safe in his inability to confound the town. OTOH, if he's role-playing the Serial Killer role, I've gotta give him kudos for being in character so completely. Nudude DOES have the capability to confound the town, but he simply has not done as many suspicious things as DLS and Thanatos, and those he has done are less significant. Like I said, he's pursuing a particular strategy for scumhunting that I personally feel to be bad tactics, but he's also more experienced than I am; it may have worked for him in the past.

But my

Number One FOS? Thanatos

, without a doubt. He's a smart fellow, capable of sowing disorder and, in the words of the detective from V for Vendetta, I just keep seeing these coincidences, this chain of events...

God, I love that movie.

[Thanatos]

Everyone I pushed for? DT, yes, but EVERYONE was looking into Liam? Why am I to blame just because he got an innocent reading, which may be a false negative for all we know.

What irks me is saying that I support bad plans, simply because the DT lynch, which had tons of support, fell through.

[Thanatos]

Everyone I pushed for? DT, yes, but EVERYONE was looking into Liam? Why am I to blame just because he got an innocent reading, which may be a false negative for all we know.

What irks me is saying that I support bad plans, simply because the DT lynch, which had tons of support, fell through.

Which is also compounded by other people (wait, am I mistaken, or was it Infinitive who said this) asking why I'm not leading as much today.

[Infinitive]

Which is also compounded by other people (wait, am I mistaken, or was it Infinitive who said this) asking why I'm not leading as much today.

It was me who said that. At the time I was pointing out discrepancies in what you'd done. You answered that question to my satisfaction. It's the other stuff that bugs me.