Mini 1783: GTA 2 Mafia (GaME OVAH)

[MagnaofIllusion]

Hey peeps back form my weekend V/LA. Let’s dive right in …

Jeanne, you formatted your tag wrong.

Any chance you realistically think that tag mistake wasn’t intentional?

Dwlee really enjoys sheeping Titus for very little logic, so he will do it until the ends of the earth.

Hey look – undermining without a shred of actual truth to it. Because the dwlee hydra voted for the Titus hydra even posted. Double bonus scum points for throwing shade on a wagon the slot was supporting up until a quick Unvote right before this point.

53 is absolutely vote-worthy.

Is it? I mean, look at Drunk Pirates from SaGa. That terrible hydra was all about hydra dissonance. Hmm, well, it's not our fault we can't agree.

Then why are you not using a QT instead of spamming the thread. Hell the talking to each other in thread is so Anti-Town behavior if you weren’t scummy for other reasons I’d still entertain you as a solid lynch this early.

I mean, both DS and FB have massive metas. Maybe you should take some time into looking at us both, because you guys are being incredibly stupid. Also, that's very close to hammer, so how about you guys not.

Do both of you have a meta of playing scummy only as Town? Because otherwise this is a terrible waste of time for everyone involved.

Did you tell us this because you thought that not hiding it would make you seem more like town?

i actually thought this exact thing. in part cause of the explanation that shouldn't have needed to be there.

Polar ever flips Town and one of these two is probably scum. Because claiming Ascetic is +Town utility even if it comes from a scum player. Polar now has the burden of being absolutely unassailable Town in their play or they risk policy lynch on role reasons the day before LYLO. Or being shot if we have a Vig in this set-up. So it buys them no Town credit per-se but is absolutely the right move as Town and both these two immediately trying to undermine it is suspect.

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: Dragon Knight

Since you are so worried about the vote count -

this is L-1

(Polar, BBT, Dominator, Banter, Code and myself).

Better get that fake-claim warmed up ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

You have got to be kidding me.
This is page 6, people.

I am half considering not claiming at all. Let you guys just hammer us and be done with it.

-Fire

Well sport maybe you can explain (or get your partner to explain more precisely) why his mis-rep on the Banterlord vote for Black wasn't scummy as fuck undermining of the slot. Because it's already been established that Banterlords made that vote before Code had even posted. So there was no way in hell that it was some sheeping as Diamond tried to present it as.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Christ, man, you really suck at Mafia, almost as much as Dwlee does. How about you stop thinking that everyone who says something you don't agree with is scum.

Yup ... someone hammer. Pure AtE fake outrage right here. Scum who got caught and now is flailing like a wild, frothing animal caught in a bear trap waiting to be put down.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I think the most damning part of Blackstar's unvote was the fact that Dom was self-voting on his own wagon. Clearly the person whose game was at risk didn't have any fear of that wagon going to lynch so it doesn't stand to reason Blackstar should have more concerns than Dom.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I also don't like how you've been trying to rush us out of RVS

. Especially on a flimsy reason like this.

Nah. It's not stalling progression.

Because I unvoted, we moved out of RVS and people started asking serious questions.

And it's not like I did it with the purpose of "stalling progression". Town and scum both do that, accidentally and on purpose, so it's weird how you were immediately like "yeah, we definitely need to lynch him". You have literally no reason to feel so strongly about lynching me. It feels forced

Hey Blackstar - if you could explain why you didn't like someone rushing us out of RVS while then explaining how your unvote did just that it would be great!

[MagnaofIllusion]

Well, we're not fucking scum so start looking elsewhere. You're either scum or worst town I have ever seen. If the first, go die. If the latter, START ACTUALLY TRYING.

-Me

Personally this level of vitriol and childishness makes me want to have you see rope even if you somehow aren't scum.

You clearly aren't following the credo of the game in question as you are showing nobody any level of respect.

And Respect is Everything ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ah, I misread as why I hated RVS, not why I thought he did. My apologies.

Yup. Apologies for mis-reading. Doesn't bother to actually answer the asked question.

Scum. Hang it. Party.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I am pretty sure we are still at L-1, so before someone does something stupid.
I guess we should claim.

We are a cop.

So yeah, you guys put a cop at L-1, congrats.

GOOD PLAYS!

-Fire

UNVOTE: Dragon Knight

It is a bad play to keep voting an uncounter-claimed Cop Day 1. Even if their play was scumtastic and filled with nothing but insulting and non-scum hunting posting.

Right, the unvoting didn't make much sense. I think it's more likely to come from town though, scum had no motivation to unvote or get scared, unless they're partners, and even then it'd be a weird reaction.

I disagree if only from the standpoint that follows – if Dom is Town then fairly green scum might be fearful they might get dinged for being on the wagon if it is a quicklynch even if their vote was the first. Blackstar did pretty much explicitly say that there was scum on the DK wagon solely based on speed so I could see scum-Blackstar being worried about the same logic applying to himself.

But it is Null since green Town could jump off just as realistically.

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: FA_Q2

Every post has avoided the Dragon Knight wagon and surrounding furor completely. Instead narrowly focuses on BBT.

Discuss ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

^ also want to ask why avoid my points on BBT entirely? If my focus there was so noteworthy you would think the logic there would at least merit a statement.

If you are talking about 207 I think you don’t really have a leg to stand on. Policy lynching is not alignment indicative. And I think you are stretching that there is much in the way of scum motivation for his response. In fact given he was under little pressure at the time the fact BBT went out of his way to be quasi-antagonistic doesn’t strike me as very likely scum motivated. The negative reaction it seems to have garnered I’d say if he’s scum it was a pretty stupid move. And while I have limited experience reading BBT what I have read says he’s not stupid.

VOTE: polarvortex

I will lynch this if there is momentum this way. This is the third ding on my radar Blackstar has made.

Ok, I'm 100% for lynching Jeanne. Lurking is a scum tell for her, so fmpov, we've just caught a scum 100%.

VOTE: Jeanne11

Let's lynch lurkers right away, and don't let them reach endgame where the waters are muddied.

So you just threw a hissy fit when you got a wagon for what you perceived to be no reasons / policy reasons. And your next move is to push a policy lynch for meta reasons as opposed to looking at all the people on your supposedly terrible wagon?

Do you feel with your claim keeping you alive today you want to continue to be scummy?

Don't like this post. Almost feels as if it is a chainsaw defense

I don’t like this post. Almost feels like a chainsaw defense of FAQ2. See how pointless that sort of statement is?

Do you think FA has solid points on BBT?

He plays like a person I know when they're scum

Funny you are playing just like someone I know who plays that was as scum. You must be scum also!

[MagnaofIllusion]

Dwlee where's my boy KT?

So no response at all to my calling out your weak chainsaw comment as just that? No real scum-hunting is taking place in your ISO. Have a vote

VOTE: Dominator

Magna, how much of your scum read on Blackstar could be easily explained by him being a bad town player? That would be my read at this point.

Bearbert D

It is certainly possible. Which is why I haven’t voted him and started the push to get him lynched. His play is scummy on several fronts but could be “bad, inexperienced Town”.

I would like fro you to address my earlier point about this being role-madness.

If you are referring to the following -

So, rolemadness huh. Did you guys remember scum has roles in these kind of power-heavy games as well? Oh yeah power-heavy, that makes it very likely there are several investigatives in this setup as well.

I’m not sure what you want me to address. So we are in a role-madness game. And that makes DK’s claim Null. So what? Regardless it is still terrible play to lynch DK today if they are uncounter-claimed. Regardless of whether they could be scum either fake-claiming or claiming a Role Cop or other scum variant. DK will be re-assessed Day 2 if he survives the night. Wasting time discussing this is just that – a waste.

And I see you more or less understand this at 280. Now I’m wondering why you went to such trouble to question people / point out that issue if you understand that his claim isn’t a “Get out of Jail Free” card for the rest of the game and is simply allowing him to be tabled til Day 2.

Magma, once you become a leading wagon for 7/7 games you're in, you cease to care about who's on your wagon. Without a flip, the only thing worth going on is reading and meta. I'm much better at meta, and it works often for me.
E.g. DGB is saga frontier, other examples I can't say.

The fact that you just wrote the pharse “I’m much better at meta and it works often for me” without a hint of irony make me want to result to Smilies so I can put the face-palm Smilie right here. Meta isn’t scum-hunting. Meta is “Lololo take my word for it lololo”.

@magna why is that your "third ding"?

What is to explain? It is the third time a post of yours has registered in my gut as suspect. I see your “I was trying to get a read” explanation which I find if I assess that at my most charitable is “junk terrible play”.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@magns I'm just going to completely disregard you now.

To anyone Town-reading Blackstar - can you elucidate why you are giving him a Town read?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Because I'm just not seeing it.

I mean he previously decried the Dragon Sentinel wagon has having 2 scum on it. He does nothing with that stance. He doesn't make any pro-active move to figure out who he thinks are the most likely scum on the wagon and pressure them.

Then he votes Polar Vortex. One of the votes on the DS wagon. His claimed reason - he didn't have a read on the slot. Shouldn't he already have suspicions about Polar if he truly believed the DS wagon was scum driven?

I just can't shake the feeling that Blackstar is scum who saw a flash wagon on Town and took the stance that it was scum driven for Town-cred from DS. He's already established he's too tentative and careful to make that play when a wagon flew on a partner so I'm dismissing DS + Blackstar Mafia at this point.

BTW - this theory means that Blackstar ever flips scum and I think DS is pretty clear.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So nobody gives a hoot about my FAq2-vote?

I find it interesting that Dominator didn't find it chainsawing for BBT.

Yes, there is some sarcasm here.

Why is FA scum to you?

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – I’ll be V/LA from approximately 5pm today until Monday morning for my usual weekend family duties.

I don't like it when people lurk either, but some people could make the argument that this post is a cop out because you don't have any reads

Way to straddle both sides of the fence. Do you personally feel it is a ‘cop out’ or not?

I think you're reading too much into his posts when they're pretty simple. For example, you point out how he did nothing with the theory that there were two scum in DK's wagon (though I think voting us counts as something, since it shows he pursued the theory's direction),

when the real worrisome thing would be if he had done something scummy with it, like pushing for a lynch on someone just because they voted DK.

I don't think his lack of pro-action on a faulty assumption is something that should be held against him

See I disagree with the bolded in a very strong way. Saying with conviction (which is how I read it) that he believes there are 2 scum on that wagon and then providing from my perspective absolutely no followthrough is far more scummy than dissecting the wagon voters and trying to puzzle out which is most likely scum.

It is not about whether you or I think it is a faulty assumption – Mafia is a theory game that is going to be riddled with them. The issue I have is if he believes what he was saying then his subsequent actions don’t mesh very well with his supposed stance. At least to the degree I don’t see him taking the feedback and rethinking his stance in thread.

Thinking right now Black Star is def strongest town read, and Jeanne is my strongest scumread.
Haven't talked to Diamond Sentinel so far, but I will break him to sheep my scumread.

-Fire

Elaborate on why Jean is your biggest scum-read and your read on Dom.

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: Blackstar

[MagnaofIllusion]

Catching up – this posts is getting long so only goes to 479. The remainder afterwards.

While I agree with you about Dom, the experience I have with him is kinda this. I think he'd be a good investigative target.

Disagree in full here. If you have the choice you don’t investigate and clear players who don’t provide content. Because them being clear isn’t likely to help Town. They aren’t going to help find scum. These types of players are solid Vig targets. You investigate players who are active but may be dangerous because they are skilled. If they are scum it saves making a very tough case and if they are clear they become a powerful tool.

UNVOTE:
i think i was still voting banterlords.

A quick scan of your ISO shows this was an RVS vote. Why did you have it parked as such when you expressed other interests in who is scum (Jean in 253 as a quick example)?

You're right that claiming makes her a target, she'd be a waste of a NK though, so the only option scum would have to get rid of her would be through lynching her

Why would an information role, no matter how weak the player who has the role, be a waste of a Nightkill for scum? I’d love for you to elaborate on that premise if you could.

If both of them are town, a roleblocker almost certainly exists. If one of them is scum that person can claim roleblocked. Them being scum together isnt a thing I dont think unless some crazy scum theatre is going on.
~Dwlee

Given this line of thought do you still agree with the plan BBT proposed?

lol there's not a third party in a 13 player game
~Dwlee

Um do you read other games here on MS? Here’s a link for you –

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=65851

Mini Normal. 12 player game. Had a 3rd party role. Your thoughts now?

Very much so, yes. Of course, my role happens to be ill-suited for my slot (it's not a role which meshes well with my typical play), but I would prefer not being forced to claim all the same.

Btw, from what I've seen so far: I've picked up that apparently, BlackStar is a tracker.

I believe the role. I don't believe he's town.

This post is suspect. The “Umm my role doesn’t fit” is unnecessary given the “I don’t want to claim” follow-up. Because anyone who knows your play can narrow down what roles that might be.

Link to the post where you surmised Blackstar is a tracker. I see your 450. What post of Masq made you surmise that.

I want to see magna's response.

Ask and you shall receive. Let’s look at her “Untouchable Town” list.

{TheDominator, The Banterlords, BlueBloodedToffee, Dragon Knight, FA_Q2}

Not surprisingly the players most interested in a Ranger list (Dragon, Banter, Dom) fall right into the pool of players who Ranger thinks are un-impeachable Town. And let’s examine the reasons for these 3 per Ranger –

TheDominator is a chronic lurker. He plays this way every game, town or scum. A lynch there would be for policy reasons alone, and have objectively no better chances of hitting scum than random lynching. It would also give no information whatsoever. The reason I have TheDominator as such a strong townread, however, is that in spite of his lack of content, I still got strong town vibes from his early posting.

This starts as a meta read that basically says “Dom plays exactly this way regardless of alignment”. Yet the conclusion is that “He’s super Town because vibes”. Very generic and unspecific about why the early posts give any sort of vibe as Town.

Dragon Knight was hard to get an initial read on, but I felt the AtE around the claim was incredibly genuine.

Rests solely on AtE being genuine. And tellingly says nothing about everything that happens after where Dragon is calling his slot confirmed meta scum via Jeanne. I’ll address why this is important in a bit.

The Banterlords was a bit of an iffy read at first: there was some town stuff, and some not so town stuff. But the more I read, the better their logic looked. Not necessarily right, but looking like it came from a town player.

The third read is just as generic as the first two. No particular reference to actual posts.
And that’s’ why I find these reads suspect. Ranger as Town should be skeptical that a wagon being driven hard on her has at least some scum involved in the mix. That’s natural. Especially since the entirety of the push is basically meta driven and as Polar has pointed out Jean’s claim being bad doesn’t mean that it has to come from scum. But Ranger doesn’t bat an eye at any of the players driving hardest for her. Nope they are all obvious, unimpeachable Town.

That’s why this post is telling IMO –

That's because he's saying words you want to hear.

Ranger is peddling what she thinks will best deflect the wagon off herself IMO.

Then we have this –

Similarly, MagnaofIllusion is playing exactly the same way Red Coyote did in Twin Peaks. It's textbook scum play. That level of objective distance allows for him to push stances which are logically sound, but which will result in a town player being lynched. His entire iso is basically one long scum claim.

This is basically fluff. There’s a soft meta element (“You can go look up RedCoyote in this one game”) that she knows doesn’t hold water since it is meta on a completely different player. Then it is a nicely worded generic statement. Riddled with phrases meant to carry weight “Objective Distance” “Logically Sound” but say nothing directly. And then just the generic “It’s one big scum-claim”. No pointing to any particular posts.

In summary that’s my feeling about all of 472 is very generic. These are broad-brush stroke posts with no actual depth of analysis.

I certainly wasn’t sold on “Let’s lynch for meta” stance. But the way her reads have come down fit so solidly with “Scum looking to survive” as opposed to “Town actually wanting to find scum” I’m not adverse to Ranger as the lynch today.

Especially given how strongly Dragon is pushing given what he stands to lose Town Cred wise if Ranger flips Town and how Ranger is going out of his way to appease the other investigation role.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Scum team is banta and polar/ranger

Others have asked but I want clarification – is this Banta + Polar + Ranger or Banta + Polar or Ranger?

oh ranger replaced jeanne. this presents some problems
~Dwlee

Elaborate.

A lot of people have done nothing to prove that they're town (us included), and we're not going to lynch DK, and unCCed alignment cop, when we could be lynching others for the same offense that havne't claimed.

Of interest – in a Role Madness style game are there any unCC claims you would approve of lynching?

And no, you don't fucking get a choice in who you investigate. I propose we also take a vote on that one.

Bearbert

So you have suspicions they are not Town and you want to relieve them of justifying their Night choices?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Magna, Jeanne/Ranger claimed a weak investigation role. And this is role madness so other roles would probably be more powerful. Before the replacement she was useless so her getting NK-ed would have helped town.

Bearbert

I understand this but Investigation roles are just that. Outright stating that "scum would not Nightkill them" ignores much of the nuance that exists in this style of game. Maybe scum wouldn't kill the slot because they were lurking. Maybe scum have plenty of powers that make the slot a non-factor. Maybe they don't. Maybe Ranger is scum. I hesitate any time I see very broad-based statements, especially given the complexity of the game.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Now I saw your last point. Well, if I saw Jeanne NK-ed the first might I'd be extremly happy. Wouldn't you?

I don't know Jeanne from a hole in the wall so I don't have any basis to be more thrilled than say seeing Phantom Cobalt or Dom being the first Nightkill.

I'd be thrilled it wasn't me but that would be for any N1 kill.

[MagnaofIllusion]

It doesn't matter. You see the style once, you learn to identify it immediately. Red Coyote was the first player I saw use it, so I associate the style with him, but the style remains very distinct and hard to miss once you've been up against it once.

Oh, so it is a playstyle tell that happens to be relevant across any player universally. Noted.

I can think of many roles that do not fit my play. Doctor. Watcher. Bodyguard. Jailkeeper. Friendly Neighbor. Fruit Vendor. Innocent Child. Lover. These all share a common theme, and it took less than a minute to think of them. I'm sure I could extend the list to be longer with any real thought put in. (E.g. coroner, being a watcher variant, serves much the same purpose, albeit not being a common role.) So, yes, it narrows down the type of role I could be. It is by far no giveaway to what role I have. Replacing into a slot that has already claimed, on the other hand...

You’ve conveniently dodged the main point by trying to sideline the main point I was making – why make the comment at all in a Role Madness game. Everyone has a role. You’ve just outed you aren’t super strong roles like Cop / Vig / Etc by your own admission. As I said – it serves not Town purpose but as scum grandstanding while pretending to not know your slot had already claimed it fits quite nicely.

I see your point why you thought Blackstar was a Tracker.

Re: all the “Nobody asked me” – consider yourself asked. I’d love to see actual support for all reasons on the three main players pushing for your slot (being Dragon / Dom / Banterlords)

I honestly never paid attention to the wagon composition on Jeanne. I paid attention to individual players, and gave my reads on them, but this was separate of wagon composition. We didn't really have a votecount around there as far as I can recall, so I don't even know what the wagon composition was. If I did, I would note my opinion of it.

Don’t quite see how this makes any sense as Town. You are reading through the thread, supposedly as Town, and seeing multiple players call out your slot for being meta lurking scum and it doesn’t trigger at all that there may be a scum hiding inside there? Nope they all are super strong Town in your eyes. Not really buying that.

This is absolutely inconsistent with MagnaofIllusion's stance on Dragon Knights. And, I QUOTE,

Pray tell, what makes lynching an uncounter-claimed watcher not bad play, if lynching an uncounter-claimed cop is bad play?

See this is the ‘gotcha’ kind play I expect from scum. “He said he’s not lynching an UnCCed Cop but why would he want to lynch an UnCCed Watcher … Inconsistent lynch it”

Cops are an exceedingly strong role. Much stronger than Watcher. This is why I asked Code to draw the line about where they thought it was acceptable to lynch a Power Role. Because Watcher is exceedingly less powerful than Cop. I would not lynch an UnCCed Cop or Doctor or Vig. Regardless of how weak their dayplay was. Because they are game-breaking roles for Town. Watcher, like any other number of roles, on the other hand isn’t .. it is the weakest of the information roles Town has available.

On the other hand it is a very strong Scum role since its purpose is to ferret out Town Power Roles like Cop / Vig since scum with the Watcher have to make much fewer assessments and reads in deciding who to watch.

But please – elaborate on why my being willing to consider a lynch on you is analgous to being willing to consider a lynch on a Cop claim. I very much am looking forward to your response.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I don’t necessarily like that FA is so focused on BBT to the extent that it blocks out his interplay with the rest of the thread but 560 is Town. Maybe not the right choice but completely from a Town perspective given scum in a Role Madness game are going to be loaded for bear as it were.

Ok.

Well I still think CoH is scum, my vote wasn;t because of that alone.

Explain then please. Because CoH is one of my stronger Town reads this game and I’d like to know why you are scum reading them.

Who's your bigger scum read, Magna, BlackStar or Ranger?

Blackstar. Which is why my vote is where it is still. I fully admit I have a weakness for over-reading scum in players who make clearly ill-founded cases on me. Which is why I’m putting the time in my back and forth with Ranger. Because I see her reasoning as very generic and based solely on a clearly faulty meta stance.

I’ve already made my Blackstar read pretty clear. I know others have disagreed but his continued posting that amounts to “I really don’t have scum reads” coupled with “I suck at finding scum” hasn’t reduced my perception that he’s scum.

Magna, if you agree with me that watcher is a weak role than why did you ask us about why we'd be happy if Jeanne was NK-ed?

Bearbert

Well we were talking at cross-purposes then. My understanding was that you would be happy if Jean (the player) was shot first independent of her role. Which is why I included reference to Cobalt and Dom in my response – I thought you were asking if as a lurker bringing nothing to the game scum-hunting wise I would be happy if she died first.

If your premise was that you’d rather see a claimed Watcher flip first over other potential and claimed Town Power-roles then I can see your point. I think there are going to be some fluff roles in the set-up (Fruit Vendor level) that I would rather see dead than a Town Watcher but that’s just speculation on my part.

Why is it unsurprising?

As I explained to Code above – my gut reaction to the terrible “case” (if you want to call it that) Ranger threw at me was “scum”. I disagree with your premise that this stance isn’t Scum looking to diffuse the wagon on them. A Town player in Ranger’s shoes should have some suspicion of the players whose case on Ranger’s slot is “Meta from prior player and lurking”. There was enough noise made in that direction that several other players stepped in to say “No, not lynching that”. But Ranger blithely just chalks that whole crew up to “Unimpeachable Town” which to me makes no sense from a Town standpoint. Especially on the basis she has provided as support.

Assuming she's town, which of those players would you suspect?

Either Banterlords or Dom. At this point Banterlords if you held a gun to my head. Both were quick to jump on the meta bandwagon but Banterlord’s jump off with the excuse of “I refuse to consider Ranger scum until Day 3” sticks out as bad after the verve with which Banter espoused the lynch in 338.

Dragon on the other hand has the most to lose from so stridently pushing basically solely on the meta basis if Ranger were to flip Town.

Yeah, I really don't get the "Scum looking to survive" vibe from her. I mean, it's not like she claimed cop at L-1

See this comment confuses me. Do you think it was scummy for a player to claim Cop at L-1? Independent of what I think of Dragon’s play that lead to the wagon I don’t see anything inherently more scummy about claiming at L-1 as opposed to Jean claiming Watcher effectively “just because”. Of the two Jean’s claim looks objectively worse when viewed form a distance.

MoI, talk to me. I thought you'd see this, but apparently you don't. How is ranger's lynch acceptable but DK's isn't, taking not just their claims, but their play in consideration?

-Snow (previous one was mine too)

Ok I thought I had been talking to you this entire time.

I think I’ve explained this in my response to Ranger but I’ll reiterate – both players I’ve read as scummy. Dragon for his early player which earned my vote and Ranger for the replace in reads which to me don’t logically come from a Town standpoint. As I said earlier – I’m not lynching an UnCCed Cop Day 1 no matter how bad their player is. Dragon’s claim will be tested via Night and re-assessed. On the other hand I don’t believe a Watcher is nearly at the level of Cop as far as leash Day 1 goes.

Is Ranger my preferred lynch? No, not at this stage. But it is a lynch I would consider dependent on how my read on the slot develops.

[MagnaofIllusion]

A particular playstyle tell, yes, absent from those same player's town games yet present in their scum games.

Given that you’ve never played a single game with me (unless you are some Alt) and you haven’t even brought up meta evidence that relates to me you can understand why I doubt your magical tell, can’t you?

And this is why you are scum. Watcher is near-universally considered one of the strongest town roles in existence. It is both investigative and protective, because its existence limits scum's actions in a manner similar to how a doctor would. You're experienced enough and well-versed enough in mafia theory to know this.

Do you actually believe this? I see you have tagged random threads but if you are honestly suggesting that Watchers are deemed stronger than Cops or Doctors I question your sincerity on the issue. Because Polar Vortex is this very thread has espoused that they don’t see Watcher the strongest role. And perhaps there’s been noise in GD in the years I have been missing but the entire existence of Trackers and Watchers can be credited to the fact that Cop roles were considered too strong and weaker Town information roles were needed.

Watcher is useless to the scum. What are they going to catch? Their own nightkill? A doctor if their nightkill fails? A bodyguard? A roleblocker on them if they watch one of their own? A serial killer if they watch one of their own? There are better roles for that, e.g. Tracker, Rolecop, Rolecop variants (Neapolitan, Vanilla Cop).

I see this and don’t buy for a second you think this. Catching a Doctor protecting a popular Town player is huge for a Mafia team. Catching a Vig (I notice you specifically ignored mentioning them in your response which I find interesting) for the same way. And these are just two options off the top of my head. There are many other uses for scum as well Of course they are not going to catch their own Nightkill. That’s absurd and the fact that you attempt to use it as a solid point in your favor says to me you aren’t honestly stating what you believe but what you think frames your position best. Which is scum-play.

You also fail to factor in that if Watchers are so strong as far as Town roles go that they make wonderful scum roles for “Outguess the Mod” WIFOM.

Also – back to a point we’ve discussed before – do you not like having a role you claim is universally viewed as the Strongest Town information role? If the role is so powerful in this game as you suggest in 554 I’m curious why again about your initial statement. You’ve clearly got an ego and I would assume Town Ranger would love to be in charge of such a powerful tool that you claim Watcher is.

There was no votecount. There wasn't even an unofficial votecount as far as I can tell. People noted there was a wagon, but I don't remember seeing any player tally them to a wagon. And if I don't see a votecount of all the players on...then I don't know what the wagon was like. That simple. I know there was a wagon. I know the players I townread, and held no issue with what they were doing. If that really was all there was to the Jeanne wagon, then yes, I have no issue with it. But I don't know because it wasn't something tangible. It popped up and disappeared before anybody bothered to note who was there. As-is, I'm taking your word for it, that it was all townreads of mine on there. I'd have to go back and check myself to confirm. Because I don't know. Thanks to it, you know. Not having been tallied.

Um, whut? There was no pressure to lynch Jean? Are you saying that you read the whole thread, back to front, without noticing players calling your slot scum for meta reasons and calling the manner your slot claimed as scummy? Simply because there wasn’t a vote count? This strains the bounds of credibility for me to believe you saw all three of those players vote for you and just “didn’t notice it” because he has a Town read on them.

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: fa_q2
I should've voted for you a while ago

So is this yet another Null read you are looking to get something out of? If not why should you have made this vote "a while ago"?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Magna, what do you think about BBT? I'm becoming increasingly suspicious of his absence and would totally change my vote there. Also, I believe we aren't lynching Blackstar today so you could change your vote as deadline is approaching
-----Bearbert D------
^signed in a more obvious way so Magna doesn't think I'm Snow -.-

BBT – I think this looks exactly like what I expect from BBT Day 1 of a game. Now this is a very, very limited set of experience with him but nothing he’s posted as made me think “hmmm, that’s scum”. Does he have a meta for lurking as scum I should be informed about? Has he made posts you find suspect?

Who do you think I should move my vote to? Dom? My confusion on that stems from the fact that both yourself and CoM seem to be advocating a “Ranger watch Dragon, Dragon scan Dom” plan which doesn’t make much sense if you just want to lynch Dom instead. Is that who you think is the best lynch of the day? Or do you have an alternate plan for how Dragon and Ranger operate?

Dial down the snark. Anyways, he's parked his vote for an entire week, he barely posts and all his votes just give off the feeling that he's trying to hard to look like town

So has half the game (re: parking of votes for long periods). And I don’t understand how you are saying “His votes look like he’s trying to hard” given FA has made a whopping total of two votes – one on Code in RVS and one on BBT that he has latched onto with lockjaw. Why does parking a vote make him look like he’s trying to hard to be Town if your initial premise for FA = scum is based on parking his vote?

As for snark – if you really are offended I apologize but I’m definitely not trying to be snarky. This is bland for me.

About my scumread on CoH: I'm not getting the feeling they are trying to figure this game out. I feel a lot in their iso is more about setup than scumhunting, there's very little opinion on other players. I don't know where they stand other than not wanting to lynch the claimed PR's (and not having a scumread on jeanne/Ranger but slightly scumreading DK) and now voting Dom which just seems like an easy target to push.

Thanks. I have a pretty good CoH town read but will take this under advisement. What do you think of Blackstar? Polar is right to point out that deadline is approaching and we need to start consolidating wagons.

[MagnaofIllusion]

We should lynch FA.

Reasons. Provide them please.

[MagnaofIllusion]

He's scum.

What more do you need? Just look at his push on me and tell me how that comes from a town perspective.

So your reasoning is basically that his push on your is terrible? Ok.

Talk to me about Dragon Knight and Ranger. Given your sig I find it odd that you basically have no significant opinion on two players using meta as basically the main thrust of the scum reads.

Magna, that plan will never happen. After the initial push I realized DK would not do it so I mostly pushed to see reactions as potential Dom partners would oppose the plan. My only conlusion is that I don't like the way FA_Q opposed it. Still, if we end up doing it we can always change the target to either BBT or ircher. Still, yeah, I guess Dom is the best lynch right now. Not because he's the scummiest necessarily, but he's done nothing to make me think he's town. And I certainly don't want him in lylo. I know it's an easy target but I do believe others can make me think they're town. He can't, not if he keeps playing like this. Also, I don't believe for a moment that post was sarcasm and he just chose that as an easy defence to a contradiction

Is him being the compromise lynch (based on lack of play as opposed to an outright scum-read) simply a function of other scum reads being off limits due to claims?

[MagnaofIllusion]

@magna Look at all of his posts. The way that they're worded just sounds really fake to me. Like he thought "this is what someone who is town would say" before he posted them

Ok so you are reading for tone then? Meh I'm not big on tone as a good alignment indicator but I do know other players have some success (or at least claim it) on that front.

Can you summarize your reads at this point - who is Town and Scum. Yes, you may not be certain of Scum. If I put a gun to your head and made you name 3 players with a quick reason (ok, 2 with FA already provided) who would you choose?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Well, yes, I can understand the doubt. Doesn't mean it's any less valid, though!

See that’s why I have such a problem with your play. Because I absolutely know it isn’t valid. I have my PM. The fact that you are clinging to this stance with every ounce of strength you can muster when the stance is meta (which is generally pretty bad as a source on its own) that isn’t even specific player meta is suspect.

And furthermore this whole back and forth with your doesn’t read at all as a player doing anything that actually amounts to making a read. It is absolutely the play of someone who thinks they need to win debate points. It is why you have dropped issues to the way side that you can’t win points on (for example – my request for you to provide meta for me since you’ve never played a game with me or for you to specifically explain your read on any of Banter / Dom / DragonKnight as you did with BBT instead) and continue to spend an inordinate amount of time debating whether Watcher is a strong enough role for your claim to make you automatically off limits for today’s lynch.

The constant reference to the Wiki is a perfect example – it is like you believe continually appealing to some outside source will win you the points in the debate. Not a single lick of this discussion revolves around why I'm scum. It is especially important that you've Town-read those players who vote for your slot after Jean claimed the Watcher role. Because if you really did think that someone "Going after a strong Town role" was scummy you would not have come to "Uber Town" reads on all three.

I noticed them individually. I did not notice them as a group. If I don't see it in a votecount, then I don't think about it. There was no announced wagon. A wagon must have existed, but I didn't take note of it.

And you are once again dodging the important point. It is not that there is some wagon. It is that those three players voted you individually for reasons that at best are borderline valid. Yet you don’t bat an eye or even consider them as possible scum using bad reasoning to vote you as “obvious scum”. You consider them unimpeachable Town. And that absolutely does not fit with a Town mindset.

When will you learn that if I ever engage someone this heavily, they're probably scum?

But this … this is what seals it for me. Appeal to Proficiency. You can’t articulate anything in terms that isn’t broad generalizations and thus go to the “I’m good so sheep me” well.

VOTE: Ranger

[MagnaofIllusion]

I’m certainly willing to compromise on Dom as deadline approaches. If only because 481 and 549 I see signs of scum inadvertent slip and a scramble to cover. And I’ll certainly move back to Blackstar if that wagon gets any momentum.

What is your case on ARS - there is much more content there and I have not been reading him as scummy.

Point me to the content posts you feel ARS has made. Because her ISO seems pretty much active-lurker to me. This page’s posting shows exactly why I think that. Banter with Ircher about Dom’s obvious joke post about Ircher being Dom’s alt as opposed to scum-hunting.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Two wagons I have absolutely no interest in. Can we go back to compromising on Dom? Yeah, Blackstar, it's not really what he's done but what he hasn't done. Still, his posts don't seem genuine to me at all and like I said, that sarcasm thing was really jarring

Bearbert

Ok then help me out here - have you read the back and forth Ranger and I have had? If so please let me know what you see in our interaction that screams Town to you. Or what point I am making you think don't hold up. Or if you haven't please do so.

[MagnaofIllusion]

You say it is unsurprising that she called her accusers town, but you're arguing that she's scum because she's not doing what you'd expect a town player to do in her position. It sounds like scum-her would have been better doing the expected from town and pushing one of her towny suspects, making her look town and still helping her push a mislynch. So her reads are not as expected or unsurprising as you made it sound.

Also, why is it so hard to believe that she does find them to be town? I find it harder to believe that a scum player would give up on such easy pushes.

So the first paragraph says that you think because she isn’t doing what I expect Town to be doing I should read her as Town? I really can’t parse that personally. Of course Scum is always better off doing what Town would. But I don’t see Town in Ranger’s player.

But let’s get into the heart of your “One of her Townies would be an easy mislynch” portion. Why are all of DK / Banterlords / Dom easy mislynches? DK is clearly off the table by the time Ranger replaced so that is out. Banterlords had gotten exactly zero heat all game so I don’t see why you call them an easy push either. Dom is the only player that might be an easy lynch among the three. That pre-supposes that Dom (or frankly Banterlords but I doubt DK and Ranger can both be scum together) isn’t a Ranger partner. Which is a unstated factor in my read. And I’m not sure why this analysis on your side pre-supposes that Ranger-scum can’t have a partner in the Banterlords / Dom group.

A cop claim at L-1/2 from a suspected player is always something to be weary of. I think I've already said how damaging it could be to us if he's scum, but I'll say it again. If he was getting lynched on D1, the cop claim buys him another night (where he can kill and or use his role) and another day, where he can claim a result, which can lead to a mislynch. A mislynch on day 2 would buy him yet another night and day. A cop claim is a free ticket. He loses nothing because he was already getting lynched and he can win two nights and two days, plus all the chaos and distraction he can cause.

And a Cop claim with no other claims on the board as scum risks counter-claim and instant hemp at the cost of outing the Town Cop. Why do you assume DK’s claim had no risks when that is the big one facing a fake-claim of Cop? Yes, it is there are risks to Town but you are painting a worst-case scenario and coloring it as the only one and I’m unsure of why.

As much as I'd like to, I'm not arguing for a DK lynch, I'm giving them a chance and hoping they're town, even though I'm aware their claim can be really hurtful to us if they're scum. So, if I'm willing to take this risk with DK, as are you, why aren't you willing to take the risk with Ranger? Because her reads "don’t logically come from a Town standpoint"? Because her role is weaker? Opinions. Opinions I disagree with. "Opinions" that to me can't logically come from a Town standpoint.

You're downplaying the value of her role and stubbornly scum reading her for things that are just wrong, no matter how well you try to justify them.

I was willing to take the risk for awhile. That has to be clear given I was voting Blackstar (another scum read that you disagree with). I see her as scum. I’ve made it clear why. You disagree. That’s fine. You voted me for it. And if I am incorrect on Ranger (and Blackstar) after the fact I’ll admit to being so. But don’t expect me not to present and push my reads just because you disagree with them.

Your suspicion on Blackstar. Similar thing. Simple posts are apparently misinterpreted and wrongly judged. And then you refuse to give in and admit or even consider that maybe you're wrong about your reads when confronted, or simply that things are not the way you perceive them. You work your way into a tunnel and refuse to get out of it, even when the exit is right in front of you.

So tell me Snow why are you so certain that I’m wrong? I’ve seen “Oh, go look at this Newbie game” as reasoning frankly I could care less about if meta is the defense. So elucidate for me exactly why my read on Blackstar has to be wrong.

Of course I'm not making a read. That's because the read already exists. I'm not beginning to have a read; the read was formed from the moment I read your posts.

Sure, but I know it’s a bad read and your lazy approach reads as scummy to me. Of course you will not agree because no-one ever agrees they are scum in a game. That’s Mafia 101.

Or, you know, you are claiming something that is provably false, and I'm showing the evidence for why it's false. It's like you're claiming the Earth is flat, and me linking to a Wikipedia article on a globe.

It’s not provably false because it is an OPINION. The Wiki is a summary of the collective opinion of all the editors and contributors of the Mafiascum wiki. Obviously there is room for differing opinions between those players. As evidenced by the Bearbert Polar head stating he would have been happy with a Jean Town Watcher flip Night 1 – based on roles. Or Ircher’s opinion that Watcher is a common Mafia role. I disagree with you on the strength of the Watcher role vis a vie Cop. Pointing and ranting the the Wiki says so it must be is political style or arguing.

And if you want me ranting about the composition of wagons.
{TheDominator, MagnaofIllusion, Dragon Knight, BlackStar} is a good thing to rant about. Not a single vote in the lot which is actually good. Sure, not all scum. Probably mostly town. But definitely not all town.

Incidentally, MagnaofIllusion should have been saying this.

He didn't.

Why should I be saying the wagon is bad when the only vote that I would see coming from a scum-read was Blackstar’s which I had not read as of 658. Dom is a compromise lynch for me because he’s exceedingly low content and I see a potential scum-slip which I already mentioned. DK I read as Town to this point for his dogged determination re: you. Scum Cop has little reason to proactively push that lynch when it has been proven to draw fire.

Yet according to you I should have unvoted before the only vote I would find suspect actually appears to me in thread. Man – it would be great to be pre-cognitive.

Magna (-90%) - Like Dragon, insists on lynching Ranger.

Unlike Dragon, unwilling to compromise for nothing, not committed to aforementioned read (didnt vote for at least 10 pages despite constantly bring it up),

and busy searching for stupid reasons to scumread Ranger for. And said reasons are worse than Dragon's as they have ZERO evidence backing them.

The bolded is suspect and contradictory. I’m scum for not having my vote on Ranger for 10 pages while it was on my Scum-read Blackstar. Meanwhile I’m unwilling to compromise for anything on Ranger despite the fact that I only move my vote the previous page. So which is it? Am I scum for having multiple scum reads and moving between them? Or am I scum for being unwilling to compromise on Ranger despite me not posting in any significance since my vote for Ranger and just having made the vote?

I’m pretty confident to say the amount of cross-buddying between Ircher and Ranger means they aren’t scum together.

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: Blackstar

I'm not moving my vote to Code. Have a Town read on them and they could have easily gone with the flow to my wagon. I don't see FA as scum. I need to re-ISO Blackstar to build a case but I am not leaving my vote idle this close to deadline.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Back for V/LA –

Well just a quick scan of thread tells me I don’t have time to mess around with this stupid wagon on me. So I’m claiming.

I’m and Informed Survivor (SMS Computer Algorithm). That’s right I’m 3rd party. I win if I survive til the end of the game regardless of who wins. I got three pieces of information in my role PM about the set-up itself.

1. There is a lyncher in the game.
2. There are two 3rd Parties in game.
3. There are at least three different possible kill sources in the game.

My play surrounding Ranger was 100% based on the fact that his lazy call of me as 100% scum without so much as building a case was a strong player replacing into the lyncher slot with me as the target. Now that Diamond has actually flipped that role and is still a non-3rd party (argue if you want but Semi-Town is still Town) I’m in agreement we have a Serial Killer in the game. Because if the other lyncher was not 3rd Party I don’t see any other reasonable non-Bastard roles that fulfill the second piece of information (since I am the first 3rd Party role).

If you want some breadcrumbing from me go to 512 and note my comment to Banter regarding 3rd Parties not being in a Mini game.

And I’m personally pretty sure I’ve already pointed out who the last Mafia member is.

VOTE: Dom

481 is a classic scum oops where he forgets that Town doesn’t know his scum team is only two players. And the hop on Code at 902 when the issue was already decided is literally worst last second bussing ever. Maybe on the off chance Dom is the Serial Killer but I’m fairly confident he’s the Mafia boss.

First: Code didn't fight for his survival. That leads me to think the other wagon(Magna) was also scum. He didn't want to lynch Magna not because he liked him, but because he didn't like Ircher who was attacking Magna. That means defending his partner without really defending.
Second: The chainsaw on Ircher was ridiculous. Code was in a good position before he went after Ircher. Why did he need to go after Ircher in such a bad way? They could have left their heads down and not stick out that much. I think Code was getting scared of a Magna lynch where the momentum was going.
Third: Read the flavor for Code's flip. It says that the other scum is their boss. That would be a good idea why Code preferred to be lynched instead of Magna.
Fourth: Ranger is dead. Ranger was the leader of the Magna wagon.
Fifth(not related): I think we've got a serial killer in the game. I believe Ranger was killed by the scum and DK by the Sk. Another theory would suggest Ranger being killed by DK but that makes absolutely no sense with DK's lyncher role.

Yeah this is bad. Bearbert if you seriously think the best method for one two-man Mafia team to deal with each other is when both are under fairly solid suspicion is to call each other strong Town reads then I can’t help you. Perhaps a trip back to the Newbie queue would do you good.

I will add I think it is funny you basically said “Ranger will get worked out overnight” which means you expected her death due to the claim and then when that happens the only logical reason is that she suspected me.

Faq, I'm going to get back to you on BBT but first want to do this.

VOTE: magna
It's Monday.

Yeah on the off chance I am wrong about Dom this should be the next lynch looking for the Mafia boss. The whole dance around “Well Magna is V/LA so no need to turbo lynch” combined with this vote literally 9 hours into today reads as scum who knows I’m not flipping Mafia and wanted to look Town for being careful.

[MagnaofIllusion]

But no, Magna, the fact that I think you buddied each other doesn't mean I don't know how scum buss. I'm a big fan of bussing. But sometimes experienced players decide to protect each other strongly. And with the precarious position both of you were in I could certainly see something like that. I've seen that as well. So don't imply I don't know how to play the game based on that. It's silly as fuck. And note I never said that Ranger getting killed was only based on the fact that she suspected you. I just used it as a point in the case(the weakest one actually)

Do the two third parties include you? Because I see no reason for the mod to word it like that.

Sorry if I hurt your feelings but your logic was terrible. What other viable wagon was there aside from Code and myself at that point in the day? None. There would be nothing to be gained from me as partner to Code to say “I read Code as solid Town” and vise-versa when there isn’t a viable other option on the table. And there wasn’t.

Yes, I did check and the multiple 3rd parties does include my own slot. You can take it up with Shos post-game about why he chose to provide me with the information structured in the way he did. And of course I paraphrased those as copy-pasting from a role-PM is a no-no. But I can’t answer for the whys of the Mod’s motivations.

I'm so fucking done with this crap every game. It's my playstyle. I hate quicklynches, flashlkynches, whatever the term you want to use if fine by me. I hate them. I hate not being able to talk. I hate not being able to read back and get something more out of a Day than only votes on a wagon, even if it was on scum.
Besides that there's also the thing where I have trust-issues which translates into mafia in me not trusting other people to unvote in time. It's a personality thing and I'm getting more aware of that so in another couple games I'll probably won't be this careful anymore but it;s a work in progress.

So I looked back at your Day 1 (mosty skimming) and it stood out to me that you weren't looking for scumteams, just individual scums which does point to you knowing about the 3rd parties beforehand. It could also be a sign that you're SK-hunting scum yourself. The informed points you have are all known already so it doesn't prove anything. Your crumb doesn't prove anything either to me.
I'm not sure if I should believe your claim, I think it's a convenient wifom-claim to make for scum. I think your case on Dom is actually compelling now, also combined with how he hasn't posted yet at all today. I'm going to have a think about all this and post my thoughts on it later, I'm a bit conflicted rn.

You understand that regardless of whether the first paragraph is true or not that entire posting is not alignment indicative – personality is personality and it would not be unexpected for scum-Masq to follow along with what his personality says is the correct Town play. Long story short – I can see the scum motivation in that play. I think Dom is pretty clearly the obvious scum choice.

As to your second paragraph – if you think I am Serial Killer hunting scum why do you think I would claim Survivor which is a “Lynch before LYLO” role when there is any suspicion on my slot at all? I’m not sure what WIFOM-claim even means in context so I’ll set that aside. And you did know there third source of potential kills? That’s interesting given there were only two kills last night. Care to clarify why that is not new information to you?

Also - do you really think looking for scum-teams before even a single scum flip is good scum-hunting?

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: Dom

Placing my vote back where it belongs.

I never said that there was 2 members of the scum team. Just my reads.

Actually I think you did. Here’s your post 481 again –

Scum team is banta and polar/ranger

You specified it was Banta and Polar / Ranger. Not Banta / Polar / Ranger or Banta and Polar and Ranger. The way you phrased it is specifically an either or on the second half. And I specifically asked you to clarify at 514 right at the top. You ignored this. And only addressed your post at 549. There you said your Ranger read was sarcasm. Which means it wasn’t an actual read. But now you are going back to “it was my reads”.

We are either doing a full claim (not really unusual in a RM game), no one is going to answer you or you need to tell us why you are seeking that answer.

We are absolutely not Full-claiming. At this stage any Town protective roles are mostly unclaimed (except for BBT’s flip and he was only self-protective). No reason to give an easy roadmap for kill shots to the remaining scum.

Frankly I’m a bit miffed I already had to claim as it narrowed the field down lower than it already was.

Thats stupid imo.

The flavor is prob. flavor; stop throwing mod wifom in.

Actually I think BBT’s death says that death type clearly has some impact and shouldn’t be discarded as pure flavor.

Ok, I guess there's nothing more I can say about it then.

Well to some degree – yeah, self-meta only goes so far as to explain away behavior others might find suspect.

But answer this question – why did you feel the need to drop a vote at 9:13 am EDT on Monday as if somehow avoiding posting in this game given I was posting nowhere else? My V/LA for weekend always extend to Monday and my posting history should show that I’m never active from 12 am EDT until 9ish on weekdays.

DK was a 1-shot BP.

I think your assumption doesn’t hold much weight. For DK to have been shot twice at Night it would have to have been the Mafia and our suspected Serial Killer. He’s not going to shoot himself. And the shot on Ranger did not come from DK. Both thematically and logistically from a win-con standpoint that’s not a reasonable kill.

DK was able to use molotov-cocktails during the Day, so we have a duplicate of his entire role or just that part?

I’m guessing either the Mafia or the Serial Killer had a dayshot like DK. Probably to deal with some sort of Bulletproof protection in the other. Hell … maybe both have the Molotov Cocktail ability. Not ruling anything out at this stage.

Ok. Had to try. Basically the fact that Code's partner was reffered as a boss made me think we would have a godfather. And since DK wasn't really an investigative role, godfather wouldn't make sense with anothet cop. But I think a town cop would have counterclaimed DK. And I think an SK with a cop role would fit. So I hoped the SK would have been stupid enough to claim and out himself. Low percentage of working but it doesn't hurt to try.

But this leaves an interesting idea. If we agree it's a strong possibility the SK has a cop style role, then I think we should start looking at the way people reacted to DK's claim

Maybe. The flip on Code showing they were a Ninja for the Mafia kills already gives the Mafia some level of protection. Not sure in a game with two sets of kills outside their own if Bulletproof or Fire Retardant or some such might make more sense.

Regardless of lack of mass-claim no reason not to look at interactions around DKs claim. With Code also flipping RoleCop looking at commonalities between their reactions and others might pay some dividends.

[MagnaofIllusion]

What other lyncher?

It was a typo - it should have read "If the lyncher was not 3rd party"

[MagnaofIllusion]

Really? Because after BBT's death, two lynchers kinda make sense.

-Snow

Looking at the construct I probably started typing 'other supposed 3rd party' and decided that was awkward as hell, replaced it with lyncher and didn't to a top notch job in editing out it.

And clearly there is not a second lyncher since my Role PM only specified one. And despite Role Madness this game is not Bastard and thus directly lying to me is not something Shos could be doing.

[MagnaofIllusion]

You know "a lyncher" is in the game. It wouldn't be lying if there were two.

I suppose the lack of the words one / only makes this true. But god that would be really, really close to the edge of "Literal Genie" style language and given the other flips so far Shos seems to be pretty clear (ie BBT's role specifically saying he could be Molotoved).

[MagnaofIllusion]

Your claim mentions that there are 2 3p and you are one of them. That would mean that either there is not another 3p or DK was not considered 3p. His role did claim psudo-town but I still took that as something that would be considered a 3p role.

Anyone have any comments on this? Am I reading to much into the wording here?

I think this has been covered already with other’s responses but the fact that DK’s role included the word Town means that he’s not a 3rd party.

Game is quiet ....

[MagnaofIllusion]

Back from V/LA –

Given pretty much the consensus is I’m being lynched today I’m tempted to tell you all to go suck a rock at this point. I’ve already pulled your bacon out of the fire once yesterday from following Polar’s clearly stupid “MoI is Code's partner” lynch to actually lynch the last Mafia. It really is fundamentally against my wincon to continue to help you today if I’m assured of not having a chance to win myself.

I’ll see if my mood improves or not and decide if I should explain all the glaring holes in the claims process that deserve to be made clear.

Who's the third killer?

Yeah you aren’t exactly engendering me with goodwill to help you out.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok so I’ve given you enough time to draw your own conclusions and this thread if floundering. So despite my gut telling me not to help traitorous Anywhere city vermin out I can’t just pull a lurk it is against my nature.

First let’s take a look at the claims.

Massclaim today. I'll start.

I am a banner. My role is basically Town 1-Shot BP Reflexive Friendly Neighbor - My BP however goes away if I'm visited in any way.

I don’t like the play around the “if I used my Friendly Neighbor shot”. That said the worst part of this claim is the fact that Ircher should have gone last to possibly catch someone fake-claiming an action on you and not confirming your Friendly Neighbor status. Bad Ircher. Town.

I am the Taxi Traitor Test, a role cop and investigative immune. I cannot be detected by watchers and the like. There are other details that come with this but I will share those after the claim and we start identifying targets/info.

Serial Killer suspect number 1. And probably the first that should go. That particular skill-set absolutely fits the needs of a Serial Killer – protection from the Town Investigation Role, the ability to find the roles of other players (much as Code was a Mafia Role Cop), and the ability to “steal” the best abilities of whatever player they investigate.

Admitting to killing BBT was pretty ballsy. But he was clearly Town. If he really thought I was scum he would have burned me instead. That shot is not a Town perspective kill.

I am the wang car bonus, I am a hider. Targeted polar vortex n1 and got roleblocked last night

Dwlee is Town. Stupid Town who lied about his claim for no good reason but Town.

Anyway, the claim: Modified Ascetic. I'm untargetable. Totally. If there's a Protect role, stay off me, go help someone that needs it.

Serial Killer suspect number 2. The claim makes perfect sense as an investigation immune Serial Killer omitting her other abilities. Right now I am leaning FA over Klingon but I need to read back to see Klingon’s slot and their reactions to Polar’s Ascetic claim.

I'm the town bully and I can punch people and essentially it means I'm a roleblocker. I punched magna last night. According to my role-pm there are players that can withstand a punch.

Meh. The whole “I got an extra use of ability for replacing in” is garbage as the Mod isn’t going to change the set-up on the fly. Would be a distant third in my suspect pool as I think the flavor is pretty weak and the Night choices are conveniently uncheckable. And I believe Blackstar’s claim is a lot more credible than Masq’s. Could be Town poorly presenting their role.

I'm the train facilities. I can force commute people which means that I protect them and stop them from doing their night abilities. I targeted the banterlords on night one and dwlee last night

Flavor makes perfect sense. My brain hurts on the targets but poor targeting choices isn’t the end of the world given Mafia had a Strongman kill anyway. Town.

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: FA_Q2

I’ve done the heavy lifting once again. Don’t make me regret it.

Going back I think Scourge’s reaction to Ascetic claim from Polar is null with a light lean towards scum.

Guys, guys, guys, we have an announcment. We are an ascetic. Had to claim so people wouldn't lose time using powers on us in the night

Guys, guys, guys, we have an announcment. We are an ascetic. Had to claim so people wouldn't lose time using powers on us in the night

Did you tell us this because you thought that not hiding it would make you seem more like town?

i actually thought this exact thing. in part cause of the explanation that shouldn't have needed to be there.

i like Polar Vortex more, too. i thought their claim was overexplanatory (could have just said 'i'm ascetic' and continued on) but its fine

This doesn’t say to me “I’m a Town Ascetic and I am doubting that claim by Polar comes from Town”. Possible given that this is acknowledged role madness Scourge could have factored in multiple Ascentic Town roles but seems meh. Not compelling enough to convince me on claim alone that Klingon is more likely Serial Killer than FA.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – I will be V/LA from today at 5pm EDT until Monday morning for my usual weekend family duties.

So at this point my vote is going to go to Masq. He’s the only one who makes sense as SK given I should have been roleblocked yesterday.

At this point I think he needs to claim his actions and whether Ircher is confirmed Town to him.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Um guys as much as I'm sure Masq is the scum the thread's been open a whopping hour or so. I think waiting to hear from Icher before night is a pretty good plan.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok but when you guys see me flip town bully promise me to lynch magna next.

Sure. I'll happily take that deal given you are the absolute last player that makes much sense to be the Serial Killer.

VOTE: Masq

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok but when you guys see me flip town bully promise me to lynch magna next.

I don't need to wait for Ircher. He's conftown to me. Once you guyuys see me flip he'll be conftown to you too because I just confirmed his friendly neighbour.
Also I can link you to a towngame of mine where I was happy to be lynched to weed out the scum.

No you. I didn't claim 3rd party like you did. It's not my responsibility that it blew up in your face.

Oh, so you basically were claiming you were happy to do it and then when called on it suddenly I need to go first? If you were Town (which your total "I changed my mind at Night" refutes BTW) you would not blink an eye since you could still easily win by 'proving' you were Town.

But now you are doubling back and saying "You first". Not so Town willing to root out scum now are you?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Frankly I'm just killing time til either Ircher shows up or I go V/LA.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Must be one tough Bully to be punching Respect, a Tank, a Train Station and a Mission itself ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Lol.

I just named 3 flips (Klingon, Dom and FA) and Blackstar's claim.

Keep flailing!

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: Dwlee

Ircher I feel bad for you. If you don't already understand - Town has already lost. You are making a choice between two Serial Killers. If you think Dwlee played a better game I can't fault your decision. But you aren't winning no matter who you vote today.

I knew Dwlee wasn't Town with his terribad claim but frankly was not in a position to push for him or really didn't even want to. I needed bodies to hit the floor at a quick pace.

Even Night Hider who gets a positive confirmation he was role-blocked? Nope, not a chance that's real. He's an Even Night Serial Killer. I know because I'm an Odd Night Serial Killer. This is just a replay of his recent finished Large Theme Cyberpunk Mafia where he was given a pass on a bad claim and skated to the end.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Well, it is now all over but for the shrieks and wails of the Dead Thread about how Town screwed up this win badly when Mafia were lynched Day 1 and Day 2.

I eagerly anticipate reading it for large entertainment value.

[MagnaofIllusion]

this setup was imbalanced as fuck, btw, it was p much "which scum team will win"

No ... it was swingy not necessarily imbalanced. You aren't considering the potential for cross-kills and Town had frankly a good amount of ways to deal with all the death floating around / respond in kind.

[MagnaofIllusion]

ircher do you have a kill
And to me swingy = imbalanced

Then you have a lot to learn about set-ups and what imbalanced means.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Srry, I was thinking Magna was lying about his role.

Well in your defense - I was.

[MagnaofIllusion]

My role sucks... I should've realized this outcome but wasnt thinking ahead when I let Masq get lynched; I should've thought ahead.

Well in your defense you weren't possibly imagining 2 Serial Killers I would guess.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Indeedd.

I really did expect you to be survivor with sk remaining

or sk fakeclaiming with Dwlee as town.

True but if you thought the bolded was a possibility then you shouldn't have voted me right out of the box.

Just sayin'

[MagnaofIllusion]

Thanks for the game Shos. As I’ve already commented a very swingy but to my mind not unbalanced game. Role madness is tough to handle and looking over everything I can’t really quibble. In fact the axiom “If everyone is complaining how unbalanced it was towards the other side you are doing things right” applies.

Town who complained – frankly I don’t want to hear it. Town was loaded for bear this game. The fact that you ended up using your abilities poorly isn’t the game designer’s fault. For instance – why FA didn’t immediately RoleCop me Night 2 to settle once and for all whether I was actually a survivor or lying was a bad decision.

I’ve seen Titus’s dead thread comments but I’m curious how she feels about the balance given her team’s abilities.

I got a chuckle each time I read through the dead thread and saw grousing about me not being lynched. Every single one of you had a chance to lynch me if I was so obvious. Yet none of you did. The after the fact posturing really doesn’t look good on you.

Dwlee played well enough to win and congratulations to him for that.

Town lost because they shut off their brains after Day 2. I led them to the Mafia and going into Night 2 they relaxed. Complacency in that situation was poison. To loosely quote the Dresden Files “My breed loves kindness. I will show Town kindness. And I will strangle them with it. And they will thank me.”

Shos – I disagree 100% with the Survivor claim being a mistake. Claiming Town Informed means that I should have immediately claimed Day 1. Town MoI would never let that information potentially rot to a Nightkill. So claiming Day 2 I had to have a built in reason not to be forthcoming about my role. Plus the Surivor element means I’m not a threat per-se to scum. Yeah, it put a timer on my lifespan but dayplay got me to LYLO and unfortunately I couldn’t post my message before Ircher so he understood what was going on before dropping a vote.

Also just leaving this here as I thought it was funny.

lol there's not a third party in a 13 player game
~Dwlee

Twigged to this Day 1.