Mafia 64: The New "C9" - Game over!

[Kinetic]

Hey guys, I've been sort of ghost following this game a bit since the first day, so I'm not in the dark here. I'm not completely up to date so if anyone wants to give me a synopsis on their opinions of BM that might help me catch up faster. I'll try and catch up by Friday, 80 pages seems daunting

[Kinetic]

Also, last time I replaced into a game Guardian was in I lead a lynch against him, so for old times sake.

Unvote

in case BM has a floating vote.

Vote:Guardian

Unvote

Ok, I promise that is my only joke post for this game .

[Kinetic]

Well I've done a lot of targeted re-reading and I think I'll answer Glork's 'request' now.

1. Glork/Mana
2. Guardian.

More later.

[Kinetic]

Why does everyone misspell my name! Misspelling my name is a scum tell!

[Kinetic]

ki·net·ic /kɪˈnɛtɪk, kaɪ-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ki-net-ik, kahy-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. pertaining to motion.
2. caused by motion.
3. characterized by movement: Running and dancing are kinetic activities.
[Origin: 1850–55; < Gk kīnétikós moving, equiv. to kīné- (verbid s. of kīneǐn to move) + -tikos -tic]

[Kinetic]

-.- Mana, or the simpler explanation is that the mafia decided not to try and kill Guardian to call him out on his doc claim when it came up that GLORK or MBL was killed... But when one of the possible docs did save one of them....

Obviously the only way to settle this is for one of the mafia to come out and tell us who they targeted last night. Anyone?

Mana you suck for the unprovoked and idiotic claim.

[Kinetic]

Meh, I don't disbelieve Mana's claim at this time, I still think it was not the time or place to make it... But I'm still mighty suspicious of both Guardian and Mana at this time. Right now though the mafia

DO

know who is a real doc among the two of you because it seems like a doc protection at night caused them to miss a kill. With that being the case, someone is not going to be safe tonight...

Alright, I'm going to go back to my reading, I'm still not 100% on this game and my notes are all over the place.

[Kinetic]

Well I'm right now at the beginning/middle of Day 2 in my reading, before the Guardian lynch/claim really takes off, and I'm mighty suspicious of TCS. I'm going to

Vote:TCS

at this time. If at the end of my re-read I still feel this way I'll bring up the points I've found.

[Kinetic]

I thought it was obvious Hacker. The two claimed docs said those were their defense targets, and the mafia no killed. One of those two WAS almost killed, thus it could be concluded the mafia MIGHT want one of them dead...

[Kinetic]

I'm hesitant to say this, but if Guardian is the other doc I think he should read this. During my reread of Day 2, a lot of Mana's moves since he came into the game reek of a newbie doc. His instant mistrust of Guardian, his haphazard attacks, even his own claim and who he says he protected fit the same pattern. At this point I really believe that, although he is acting very compulsive and not analyzing his actions very much for the good of the town, that his claim is true... Which actually scares me more.

I agree on a lot of your ideas about TCS Hacker, he keeps coming back as generally scummy in my book as well. Most specifically I'd like to look back at InHim's analysis right after Day 2 with a little more information:

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Albert B. Rampage – 8 – Yosarian2, xyzzy, MrBuddyLee, HackerHuck, YogurtBandit, Shteven, The Central Scrutinizer, inHimShallIBe
YogurtBandit – 8 –

Sarcastro

, Billy Twilight,

HungryJoe

, Jack, Glork,

Albert B. Rampage

,

Mastermind of Sin

, Guardian

Guardian – 2 – Battle Mage,

AutumnEvenings

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Battle Mage early bandwagon – 8 - Glork, BillyTwilight, Guardian,

AutumnEvenings

,

HungryJoe

, The Central Scrutinizer, yogurtbandit,

Sarcastro

If BM is town or SK, I expect there to be two scum in the above. If he is scum, very likely there is only one scum voting him.

End of Day spread:
Voting for ABR – YB, TCS
Voting for YB – Glork, BT,

Hungry Joe

,

Sarcastro

, Guardian
Not voting either of the above –

AE

People that I mentally clear: YB, BT, AE – this leaves TCS, Glork, Sarcastro, Guardian where there is at least one scum, again imo. I noted the Day’s end vote counts because I think scum would separate themselves after being clumped together on an early bandwagon (remember this all hinges on the fact that I believe BM is town). Given all these assumptions, I see an isolation.

In addition lets add in the Guardian near Lynch, and the eventual Sarcastro scum lynch from Day 2:

Guardian- 7 (

Sarcastro

, hackerHuck, BattleMage, Glork, Yosarian2, Shteven, InHimShalliBe)

6 votes for Sarcastro (

AutumnEvenings

, Shteven, YB, MBL, Glork, Guardian)
6 votes for Yogurt Bandit (HackerHuck, ManaSpryte, InHim, BillyTwilight, Jack, TCS)

Now TCS was on the Guardian lynch until BattleMage joined it (having the third vote I believe), but vacated the lynch in a very scummy fashion:

Ut-oh. BM is on the wagon. Time to get off it.

unvote: Guardian

vote: The Central Scrutinizer - and now I also see the unprovoked unvote of Guardian. Yes, I liked this vote Yesterday, and encourage it Today.

If we believe Guardian's claim (and even if we don't believe it, but think he's SK. A point that is given major credence since he basically hammered Sarcastro) this puts TCS in a very peculiar position. We have him dancing around the key votes of the days onto people who have for the most part turned up town, or at the very least do not seem to be team scum. He places the vote Day 2 in an almost desperate attempt to keep Sarcastro from being lynched. He didn't even comment about the vote:

unvote, vote yogurtbandit

I had go back quite a bit to find his 'reasons'

August 17, 5 days and 2 pages before his actual vote

I'm keeping my vote on Glork, but at deadline I prefer a Yogurt lynch over a Sarc lynch, and will hop to make it so.

(If necessary)

Basically giving him an out for coming up late and trying to sway the vote away from Sarc.

Since the end of day vote on the first day now has officially two scum on it we can feel very sure that at the best only one more scum could possibly be on it, but I would be willing to bet that at best there are 2 team scum on the Albert side.

Albert B. Rampage – 8 – Yosarian2, xyzzy(mana), MrBuddyLee, HackerHuck, YogurtBandit, Shteven, The Central Scrutinizer, inHimShallIBe

None of the people on this list have been cleared at all, so lets head over to the BM lynch to try and limit some further:

Battle Mage early bandwagon – 8 - Glork, BillyTwilight, Guardian,

AutumnEvenings

,

HungryJoe

, The Central Scrutinizer, yogurtbandit,

Sarcastro

Now assuming BM is town, we can suspect there are 2-3 scum on this wagon as well. Sarcastro has already been outed, so this leaves Glork, BT, TCS, and YB left (Guardian is excluded because of his low likeliness to be teamscum)

From those 4 we can assume either 1-2 scum are there.

Lets limit this further with End Day 2 Lynch Information:

6 votes for Sarcastro (

AutumnEvenings

, Shteven, YB, MBL, Glork, Guardian)
6 votes for Yogurt Bandit (HackerHuck, ManaSpryte, InHim, BillyTwilight, Jack, TCS)

YB: Could be scum, his vote on Sarcastro could just be him saving his ass. That being said, twice he's been nearly lynched and already two scum have come up on his first lynch attempt. I would be willing to bet at least one more is on his lynch Day 2.

BT: In a very precarious position here. He is very lurky. Could be one of the teamscum. However his vote Day 1 on BM is second to Glork. I feel the first 5 voted are townie (except for BTs), but his second vote on YB day 1 seems townie (and I wouldn't expect him to follow another scum's vote so early in the game). High on my list, but not the highest.

Glork: Could be teamscum or SK. That being said he was rather pivotal to getting Sarcastro lynched, and with one of the doctors saying they protected him and a mafia no kill, we have too many inconsistencies.

TCS: Continually in the wrong place at the wrong time. Between him and BT, both are very close in my book, but I prefer TCS for the reasons stated above and because I'm slightly less suspicious of BT.

My vote stays on TCS. I still have about 10 more pages of rereading to go, but I've been jumping back and forth and doing some targeted rereads. I'm fairly confident TCS is part of the mafia.

[Kinetic]

Wow... that turned into a much bigger post than I expected it to...

[Kinetic]

Yea... I kinda half figured Guardian was the Doc... but I really expected it was because he was a SK... There is no possible way he is teamscum in my opinion...

Mana still fails at doc claim >> << >> <<

bleh

[Kinetic]

EBWOP: Guardian was not doc**

[Kinetic]

The way I feel about it, I feel strong enough to push for TCS at this time and I'll vote for HH if the lynch gets moving.

I don't exactly know how well I believe Guardian right now, but I felt strongly he might be the SK well before his secondary claim, and his latest claim hasn't exactly inspired confidence in me.

I won't personally push for Guardian's vote, but I will vote for him if that seems to be the way this day goes.

Yos: I don't think Guardian is teamscum because of his actions after his near lynch on day 2, as you have observed. However, if Guardian

does

come up as teamscum, the only possibility in my eyes is that YB has to be the other. At this point I think YB has just been on the crappy side of two near lynches, but I'm not totally convinced in his innocence.

[Kinetic]

Okay, will someone please tell me how we can assume Guardian is vanilla and Mana is a doc when Guardian wasn't targeted last night?

Guardian's vanilla claim opens it up that there

is

yet another doc still out there hiding. Because of this it is possible that doc protected Guardian. It is also possible the mafia targeted Glork or just plain no killed. Like I said before, only the mafia know this for sure.

It's worth noting that battle mage has been know to lurk as scum.

BM gave up on this game. My best guess is it got a little too deep for him and he just didn't want to play anymore. For the most part he wasn't playing at all in the end. This seemed to start around page 40 or so, and continued until I replaced him.

Then again, this little tidbit was sort of useless, from what I've seen BM has been known to be completely random, defying all logical explanations. If you can narrow down a BM meta to "he lurks when scum", then I will provide the counter of "he prefers to be power roles (mafia included here) and wouldn't neglect a game as severely as he did in this one when he had such a role".

[Kinetic]

Okay, will someone please tell me how we can assume Guardian is vanilla and Mana is a doc when Guardian wasn't targeted last night?

Guardian's vanilla claim opens it up that there

is

yet another doc still out there hiding. Because of this it is possible that doc protected Guardian. It is also possible the mafia targeted Glork or just plain no killed. Like I said before, only the mafia know this for sure.

EBWOP: I mean to say that it is possible there is another Doc.

[Kinetic]

unOfficial Vote Count, because I wasn't sure where everything was.

Jack (YB)
TCS (HackerHuck, Kin)
HH (Glork, Guardian, Jack)
Guardian

Lynch -3

(MS, Yos2, Shteven, TCS)

13 Alive, 7 to lynch

Meh... At this point I'd much prefer us going after TCS... that being said both HH and Guardian are high on my list...

Vote:HH

That should put them both at -3.

[Kinetic]

....

..................................................

Guardian, while you are drunk, what is your alignment in all your games including this one?

[Kinetic]

Unvote, Vote:Guardian

I don't like fake drunk Guardian. He's worse at lying when he is pretending to be drunk then when he is trying to be serious.

[Kinetic]

I've drunk dialed. I've woken up with someone and not remembered where I met them. But I've never been drunk, went on the computer, navigated all those menus, found a particular game I was in, posted semi-relevant information, all while drunk.

You didn't do this once either, right before he was nearly lynched on day 2 (posts 1477, 1481), you all of a sudden acted quite drunk, and declared yourself town in his drunken stupor. And there were three hours between the posts. Once is a coincidence, twice is a pattern. You've never posted drunk in any of your other games I've been in with you, and you were under pressure in them too. I specifically asked you that question "while you were drunk" because I wanted to see if you stayed with the consistency of your argument. If you would have responded with "I don't know" or even "I can't talk about other games at all" I might have had to think more before voting you. But they way responded convinced me it was all a ploy. And REALLY, a frat part on a Thursday night? Please.

In addition I find the fact that you were building up your doc claim WELL before you made it, with your "I have a power role" speech to all your breadcrumbing. The more I look at it the more I'm convinced that this was a deliberate strategy set forth from the beginning of the game and I can only suspect you've done it because you wanted to hide, but if you got caught you could claim one of the two doctors and ask the other one to protect you at night.

That's why I voted you, and that's why it stays there. I wasn't sure about if you were the SK before, and honestly I was willing to let that doubt keep me from voting you, but I can't justify that anymore. Everything you've done seems too calculated for my liking, even your 'mistakes'.

[Kinetic]

That makes more sense. I went back and reread and saw manasprytes bit about him never posting while drunk. I though your post was in response to kinetic.

I'll

unfos:guardian

and while I'm at it I'll

unfos:yos2

. While I was convinced guardian was lying about above scenario I thought a bit. There are two possibilities. One, he's teamscum with yb. Personally I don't buy this as I think it would have been smarter to hammer yb. Two, he's sk. Townie claim wouldn't have stopped the lynch, cop claim has a possible counterclaim, with a doc claim he's safe until another doc turns up dead/claims. He can even hope for protection from a living doc, or hope the mafia will not kill him for wifom reasons. I don't know if this scenario is that likely but I can understand someone suspecting him. Personally, I think it more likely he would have stuck with the doc claim and hoped on the 50% chance that there wasn't another doc rather than reveal his lie before getting counterclaimed by another doc.

Actually Jack, I think the reason he came out was because he is convinced that the Mafia targeted him last night and that a Doc protected him and that is why he isn't dead. Since mana came out and said he DIDN'T do that, Guardian prob. felt that there is a much better chance of there being a second doc out there than of there not being one.

At least, that is the way I read the situation.

[Kinetic]

Actually Jack, I think the reason he came out was because he is convinced that the Mafia targeted him last night and that a Doc protected him and that is why he isn't dead. Since mana came out and said he DIDN'T do that, Guardian prob. felt that there is a much better chance of there being a second doc out there than of there not being one.

lol. I came out so IF there was a second doc he wouldn't claim. Explain how that is anti-town, why don't you?

Glork seems like a very reasonable scum NK choice, I no longer am "assuming" that I was NK targeted.



I find it ludicrous how most everyone is like: "Guardian's almost definitely not team scum. But he lied. So let's lynch him."

The SK NK choice make no sense for me (both DEFENDED me), my claimingness makes very little sense, and LAL is a stupid meta policy.

Not anti-town, per say, but it is survivor mentality. You knew if you didn't come out first and the other doc DID counter-claim, you would be toast. No one would believe you were vanilla town then. So you did damage control.

And, actually, the fact the SK keeps killing people who defended you is a reoccurring theme that I wasn't going to bring up originally. But since you so nicely brought it to the attention of everyone else... That was the first thing that had me suspecting you of being the SK. I think you killed MOS with the intention of pointing to him day 2 saying: MoS is town and he defended me. When he came up scum, I think it blew up in your face.

This doesn't seem very likely... but with all the coincidences lining up...

[Kinetic]

I think we'll need a better explanation for the breadcrumbing guardian. When did you decide to breadcrum? And why did you breadcrumb COP?

@BM -- is that a cop claim? Because then you are definitely lying scum.

More later, then. I didn't breadcrum cop. BM highly hinted he was cop with a guilty on me -- in that case he would be lying scum.

Right. You lose context when you use the sort function.

You could easily have nightkilled those defending you to make yourself look better.

@kinetic: mind pointing me to the places guardian breadcrumbed? I did a quick scan but don't have time for a full read.

I honestly didn't notice his breadcrumbing until he pointed them out himself right after his doc claim. Post 1527 he announced himself as doc, and then said he left "plenty" of breadcrumbs for this. Post 1535 he then pointed out a couple of them. Everything in between them is him squirming at Lynch -1.

[Kinetic]

Does anyone think that Kinetic and Guardian be the final two scum? It seems like Kinetic defends Guardian all too much..

Really?

[Kinetic]

Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 6:51 pm Post subject: 2001
Mana claims doc.

Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 10:25 am Post subject: 2020
Guardian unclaims doc, claims vanilla

I'm sorry... it took me and Glork pretty much convincing you that A) Mana wasn't lying and most likely was doc. B) You two might want to consider a double protect and C) That having a second doc claim wasn't the end of the world

You waited an entire DAY before you unclaimed, until there was NO WAY we would believe you if a second doc claimed, and when there was the most suspician on you. You waited 19 posts before unclaiming, with every likeliness that there might have been a second doc ready to counterclaim and REALLY screw up the game. You tried as best you could to save yourself, and when you realized you were the one we wouldn't believe should another doc counter claim (and since you

knew

there are a decent chance there might be another doc) you finally relented. I was almost willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, but I can't.

I'll say I'm only 65-75% sure you might be SK, but the rest is straight policy lynching. You can't do that if you're vanilla and expect to live, especially the way you went about it. Let this be a lesson learned if you truly are vanilla, but honestly I don't think any of the town is going to feel sorry. You

might

have soaked up a mafia kill and got protected, but now you've distracted the town from scum hunting. You failed miserably as town, if you are town.

And you're only slightly true Guardian, there is still about a 10% chance you're mafia. I think it was BT or Glork that pointed out newbie scum might jump on a Sarc bussing if another scum was already there. The other possibility is YB is also scum and you could clear yourself by hammering Sarc. True not very possible, but they are still out there. If you ARE mafia, then we know a lot more than if you're SK, so I'd almost rather you come up that. If you come up SK, its not as good as if you were mafia, but its not bad by far. And if you are town, well then you failed. Failed in your duties as town.

I'm done with this day. Someone please hammer Guardian. There is no way we are going to find scum today unless Guardian is scum, so good job on giving the SK two kills and outing the doc.

[sarcasm]Very town play.[/sarcasm]

[Kinetic]

Guardian: You say you did it to avoid being lynched.
You are going to be lynched.
Bad play.

Look at it this way Guardian, if a scum, at any time, could claim doc, then when countered, claim vanilla, and not get lynched, what scum would EVER not claim doc?

You are setting a BAD precedent if you are town. I'm not convinced you are, and IF you are you made a VERY bad play. I'm just telling you that now. The fact is you claimed a power role that you weren't, and now you are going to die because of it. I thought you were possibly SK BEFORE you unclaimed, you unclaiming did nothing to help your case, in fact, it hurt it immensely.

If you do it again, you will be lynched again and all it will have gained is your death. You distract the town from lynching scum if you town, and you are dead to your rights if you are scum. Don't you understand what you are doing? BEYOND the scope of this claim, NO ONE in this game is EVER going to believe you 100% no matter WHAT you claim in the future. ESPECIALLY if you come up town! At least, if you come up scum we can say, "Well hey, he was in a tough position and tried to last a little longer and maybe win." but if you're town, what we're going to think is, "He was a vanilla town, he risked all of the power roles, the other docs, and everything just so he could personally stay alive against the interests of the town."

I would hope you think LONG and HARD if you EVER pull a stunt like this again.

You are lynched as far as I'm concerned, we're just waiting for the inevitable. Yos was right, your lynch IS inevitable in this situation. Just like BT said, if you survive there will ALWAYS be questions of your alignment and it will be a mess if we wait. At least if we are wrong now we can recover. The LAST thing we need is to be at LYLO with you still alive.

[Kinetic]

He's at -1 BT. I put him at -2, Glork put him at -1.

[Kinetic]

Guardian: You say you did it to avoid being lynched.
You are going to be lynched.
Bad play.

I did it to delay being lynched. I delayed being lynched. Stop acting like a pompus ass,

for the record people, check out 24 mafia, where Kinetic admits that being a jerk to me is a scum tell for him

.

That was also my first game on Mafiascum Guardian. I said I was overly a jerk to you the entire game. Basically I saw you as my pit bull target and the entire game I went after you. This is not the same. I came into the game thinking you were the doctor but possibly the SK.

After you unclaimed, I still wasn't completely sure about lynching you. It wasn't until everything began falling into place that I realized how bad what you did really was. Yos2 and others who have more experience than I do realized it right away, and once I did the math I agreed.

I'm not trying to be pompus or an ass to you. I'm trying to show you the error of your ways and hoping you won't do it again.

Look at it this way Guardian, if a scum, at any time, could claim doc, then when countered, claim vanilla, and not get lynched, what scum would EVER not claim doc?

In this setup? IMO scum *should* claim doc. I fail to see your point -- scum could do what I did as well. It doesn't mean I'm scum.

But it DOES mean that you are very likely scum, by your own admission here... I don't understand, are you telling me you

wouldn't

be highly suspicious of someone who did this? Please.

You are setting a BAD precedent if you are town.

I'm not very concerned with that. I'm concerned with this game, right here right now -- in which I am town.

Well you should be concerned about your play right here and right now. Its bad, you're going to get lynched. As far as I'm concerned is already done, I'm just trying to tell you its not a smart idea to do it again (which you even admitted you would do).

I'm not convinced you are, and IF you are you made a VERY bad play. I'm just telling you that now. The fact is you claimed a power role that you weren't, and now you are going to die because of it.

Wait, wait, this is bullshit. Me dying now does not at ALL make this a bad play. If me dying now was all that happened, I would be incredibly pleased with the results -- I was around to help lynch Sarcastro -- something that wouldn't have happened otherwise. I kept myself alive long enough to help you guys lynch Sarc -- that was an incredibly good result.

Lucky, at best. But what if Sarc was the doc? What if sarc was the last cop? What if Sarc was the vig who kept getting his shots blocked by the real doc? What if Sarc was also town? What if Sarc was a fish and swam around doing nothing.

Yes, you helped, and I think the whole town is grateful, but the truth is it doesn't make you 100% confirmed town. And the fact that keeping you around is only going to leave questions that can only be answered by your death is unacceptable. If you are vanilla town then this isn't the worst thing that could happen to you, and with you gone the town actually has a better chance of winning. I'm sorry, you are a brick and the town needs to throw off some excess weight on the boat.

I thought you were possibly SK BEFORE you unclaimed, you unclaiming did nothing to help your case, in fact, it hurt it immensely.

So refresh my memory, why exactly would I have unclaimed as an SK again? I'm not an idiot -- I didn't think everyone was going to accept instantly "oh, well he lied as town, and then breadcrumed as town planning to lie, obv obv town". I do contest that as an SK it would make more sense for me to not come out, also.

SK has to play the long game. Coming out any later than you did would have ensured your lynch beyond a shadow of a doubt if another doc counter-claimed you. As it is the one that did pretty much sealed your fate. You played the whole game intending to do this if you got caught. I'm just glad the town tried to lynch you early and forced you to do so now instead of near mid or late game. Such a claim could have been DISASTER!

If you do it again, you will be lynched again and all it will have gained is your death.

If I do it again, and the same thing happens, I'll still have delayed a lynch of a pro-town player. There is no guarantee that in the future a town would be so adamant about LAL, and at the very least I'll have kept myself alive to try and help the town a bit longer.

Wrong. LAL is usually from what I've seen only invoked in very important situations. Fake claiming is one of the universally accepted reasons. No reason for it.

You distract the town from lynching scum if you town, and you are dead to your rights if you are scum.

ME BEING LYNCHED EARLIER WOULD HAVE ALSO BEEN A DISTRACTION FROM LYNCHING SCUM. WTF KINETIC.

Something I learned the first time I was lynched as town: It is not our job to make you not look scummy. If the town felt you were scummy enough to try and lynch you the first time around and you would have been lynched had you claimed vanilla then, then what makes you think that when you unclaim you'll be safe?

No, what you did is forced one of the docs to put them self, and delayed a lynch that should have happened yesterday. Yes, the town got lucky lynching Sarc, and that helps, but you realize if Sarc was town MS most likely would have claimed still today. Then what would have happened? Even IF the mafia didn't NK the SK would have gotten 2 kills for the price of 1, the mafia would have found the doc, you would be dead (scum or not) and the town would be facing 3 scum, a SK, and only 7 townies going into day 4 (assuming you are town. That is an unacceptable risk you took with the town. The ends do not justify the means.

Don't you understand what you are doing? BEYOND the scope of this claim, NO ONE in this game is EVER going to believe you 100% no matter WHAT you claim in the future. ESPECIALLY if you come up town! At least, if you come up scum we can say, "Well hey, he was in a tough position and tried to last a little longer and maybe win." but if you're town, what we're going to think is, "He was a vanilla town, he risked all of the power roles, the other docs, and everything just so he could personally stay alive against the interests of the town."

You are talking about meta-gaming here -- something that I care very little about while I am in the game. However, if I come out of this with the meta that I am KNOWN to lie as town, and even lie as town MORE OFTEN than I do as scum, I don't see how that is at all a bad meta .

*points up* You accuse me with a meta that doesn't even work here, then say you don't agree with meta play, and then agree that lying through your teeth as town is good play?

I really hope you enjoy being lynched, because I'm strongly going to encourage a "Lynch Guardian" meta since you cannot be trusted at all.

I would hope you think LONG and HARD if you EVER pull a stunt like this again.

I thought LONG and HARD about EVER doing this in the FIRST PLACE and since no one has CONVINCED me OTHERWISE I would do a STUNT like this AGAIN in the FUTURE.

And you will be lynched again, and again, and again. You hurt the town and yet don't even take responsibility. All you're doing is convincing me now that you're squirming scum.

You are lynched as far as I'm concerned, we're just waiting for the inevitable. Yos was right, your lynch IS inevitable in this situation.

Only if people like you are stubborn and unwilling to see the truth .

How can we see the truth when you keep lying and changing the "truth". Pick a "truth" and stick to it.

Just like BT said, if you survive there will ALWAYS be questions of your alignment and it will be a mess if we wait. At least if we are wrong now we can recover. The LAST thing we need is to be at LYLO with you still alive.

No -- the LAST thing we need is for me to be LYNCHED so a townie is DEAD and so we get to LYLO one day FASTER than we SHOULD have. .

You should have thought about that before you fake claimed. right now over half the town is convinced that you are the SK, and even if the mafia is on this wagon and doesn't care if you're SK or Townie, it is your fault this happened.

[Kinetic]

Guardian, I don't think anybody is simply policy-lynching.

I think both Kinetic and BT explicitly claimed that they are at least in part policy lynching.

I try not to make it a habit to reply to a post you directed at someone else, but since you mentioned me, I feel I have to speak up here. Glork said he doesn't think anyone is simply policy lynching. Simply, in this contexts, means only, or that is their only intention. No, in fact you even said that we are not doing that. I agree that the fact that it enforces a smart policy is encouraging, it is not the only reason I am voting for you. I laid out my entire reasons, even after you called me scum for not having a reason. I have ample reason to believe you're SK, and I think you are the right lynch for today.

[Kinetic]

EBWOP: The two top lines were said by Guardian, sorry for tag mishap.

[Kinetic]

You keep mixing two separate, almost mutually exclusive things I'm trying to get across to you.

First: I am explaining why I am voting for you. Trying to explain to you, completely and in detail the error of your ways. This is more than a lot of people are doing, and don't think that hasn't escaped my notice. I could have just said "LAL die die die" and left it at that, and guess what, that would have worked and there are few people that would bat an eye at that.

This is because I really do generally like you as a person, I am trying to help you improve your play as a whole. This isn't going to be your game. I really hope you are town, so that everything you did wasn't for naught and you can still win the game, but if you arn't I'm sorry. And the fact is that you are 65-75% likely to be the SK, and 5-10% likely to be mafia at this point.

Are you telling me you wouldn't lynch someone you had VERY good reason to believe is very likely to be a SK, who lied to the town to save their ass, and caused (intentionally or not) a doctor to counter claim them, you would NOT lynch them? Especially when even if you are wrong you have at the least two days to recover from the mislynch, should it be so?

Let me make it even easier for you. There is only a 50% chance you're scum and we are in the same position now (2 mafia, 1 sk, 10 pro-town remaining). From what I have seen from you in other games, you know statistics. This is a good bet, and a good play.

If you say you wouldn't, well I call bullshit. I wouldn't say I know you VERY well, but I know you well enough that if the situation was reversed you would tell me the same thing.

Second: I am trying to get across to you, in the approx. 25% chance you are not scum, what a bad play you made as town.

That is all.

I'm not going to be angry at your OMGUS vote Guardian, but I still would like it if you at least understood the position you have put us in. Its not going to save you, but it would make me feel better. We'll talk more in post game, I'm sure this will be a hot topic.

[Kinetic]

10 other people: Guardian, lying as town is always bad. Your play was bad. It was bad, because lying to the town, as town, is bad. [sarcastic emphasis]You, as a person, are bad.[/sarcastic emphasis]

Me: I disagree.

10 other people: No Guardian, as we explained, you are wrong. And bad.

You know that there are exactly 10 people remaining in the town with 2 mafia and 1 SK.....

If exactly 10 people are saying this... it sounds like you're saying the whole town is against you....

And that would put you in the three remaining (scum)

I realize this is slightly twisting your words around, but I just thought it was an interesting note.

[Kinetic]

Vote:TCS

Your inactivity up until now, coupled with my previous points on Day 3 still stand.

[Kinetic]

I don't think mass claim is a bad idea at this point. Although I think I have an idea of what is remaining. The only thing I'm unsure about is masons. However, having two masons alive at this point would be a very good thing.

[Kinetic]

BT: I'm too lazy to re-write it all. Here is a link to the original post/case.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 651#727651

[Kinetic]

<--- Figured out Glork was the cop Day 3. Kept my mouth shut about it. That's why the only group I'm unsure about is the masons.

[Kinetic]

Unvote

Bleh.

[Kinetic]

The mafiates are probably among {HackerHuck, BillyTwilight, Shteven}.... could be up to one of inHim/TCS/Yos, though I find that less likely to be the case.

SK is probably among {MBL, Yos, HH, BT, inHim}.

Number of power (Cops, Docs, Vig) should be obv by now. No comment on masonry at this time.

For anyone who might not believe Glork's claim, I submit this post from Day Three for your consideration. After reading this on Day 3 I was convinced Glork WAS the cop. This was right after LLee made that quiz.

Just seemed really obvious to me personally.

[Kinetic]

I'm leaning toward voting MBL with Glork right now, but I don't really want to blindly jump into anything. 1) It reeks of lazy town, which is one of my all time pet peeves (all time meaning the two months I've been playing ont his board ). 2) I don't want someone else to argue a point and then just jump on and say "Yea!".

I'll need a little time (24 hours?) to look over MBL for myself. I must say, I did notice a few of those things that Glork mentioned, and did put him in my notes, but I honestly thought Glork investigated him the Night between Day 2 and 3 (With Guardian protecting him and it seemed like Glork coming out of the night saying MBL couldn't be scum). I'll have to look over more things and I'll make a judgment call asap.

[Kinetic]

BT: I figured out Glork was very likely the cop almost as soon as I replaced into the game. If I could figure it out, its not outside the realm of possibility that I wasn't the only one.

Don't feel bad for outing him, I'm reasonably sure he planned on coming out today, especially since the Mana kill means that we have close to a 90% chance of only one doc. This adds additional credence to the fact that it seems like the mafia was closing in on Glork anyway with the no kill night 3 since Mana claimed to have protected him.

As for my reversal on Guardian, I explained that. Multiple Times. You're not the first one to pull this point out of the blue... Seems kind of... odd in my opinion. Maybe not exactly scummy, but for something that seems to me to not be that huge of a deal, for it to be noticed and commented on so long after word, in much the same way as already has been done, yet not to have read the multiple explanations and times I've addressed this... It almost seems to me like someone said "Hey, look at this. I think we should point to this if we get in trouble and get something going." Masons? Mafia? Could be either in my book, but it just seems too coincidental for my liking.

I cannot argue for or against BM's lurking. I'm not BM so I don't know what was running through his mind. And let's be completely clear here, I've yet to see what I would call "consistent" play by BM... in any game... at all. He should have been replaced the first time imo. Why he came back is beyond me. Why he was allowed back is even odder still. But I can't be expected to know the motivations behind two different people (LLee or BM) without going into WIFOM territory that even I am afraid to navigate without the high possibility of drowning.

[Kinetic]

-.- Way to misinterpret everything here. You see, you actually made a grave error in your post. Basically, that most of my mistakes can be attributed to me having to read a 80+ page game in a little under 5 hours. My play is very inconsistent because between almost all my posts on Day 3 I was gaining a HELL of a lot of information, and for the most part I didn't exactly understand it all right away.

I'll try to walk you through it. This will take a while though because I've got to read your post then explain my reasonings and cite my own posts, and possibly posts going back over three days to explain my reasonings...

In addition I didn't exactly read the whole game in order. I was jumping around, target re-reading people I thought were suspect, and constantly trying to not lose what was going on with Day 3...

That includes what was going on with Guardian. The whole shit hit the fan while I was target re-reading Mana, and I had to start the fuck over with a new context, go back and re-read Glork and Guardian

again

, and had a bunch of other shit going on at the same time....

And I'm so annoyed that you post this so late at night >>. I don't want to leave this hanging, and I need to goto sleep. T.T

So, without further adu I'm going to attempt to just explain what was going through my head at the time of my posts and what was going on as best I can without actually finding the specific posts I was reading at the time -.-;

Here goes nothing:

Kinetic, you replaced into the game with post #1981. Shortly after you entered, Manaspryte claimed, and the fiasco with Guardian started. Before Guardian rescinded his claim, you claimed to be very suspicious of him. Of course Guardian backpedaling on his claim did nothing to assuage that suspicion, but you weren't ready to vote him yet. There are a couple of posts of interest from you during this time. First post #2015 in which you laid out your "big picture" of the game so far. In this post you voted TCS, and you used this as the reasons for your vote of him early today.

Ok, sounds fine so far...

Next post of interest is post #2059, where you claim a couple of things. First, you state you are still willing to push a TCS lynch, but that if a wagon begins to form against HH you are willing to vote there as well. Also you state that you are unsure about Guardian's "unclaim", that you thought he might be an SK before his unclaim, but that you wouldn't personally push for his vote but were willing to go after him if that's "the way this day goes". I'd like to note that twice in this post you mentioned that you were willing to follow town in a lynch that you weren't going to push otherwise. To me, it feels like you are trying to gauge where the town is going to go, so you can be on that lynch. Also it feels like you are more than willing to leave Guardian in the game if we decided not to lynch him. I find this to be anti-town play. Leaving Guardian in the game with his history is something scum would want to do, as I pointed out in my posts when we were lynching Guardian.

Ok, there is actually a specific reason why I started to follow the HH lynch... mainly because Glork was pushing it. It was at about this time I started to suspect that Glork might be the cop. Here are my notes. I haven't yet added anything from this day (Day 4), and the last time I added anything was near the end of Day 3:

0-1 Cop Glork? Would explain why he thinks there are not many power roles left.

.....

12. Glork
I have a strong feeling he might be one of the remaining team scum
No.. He's a power role. Seems possible he's the cop.
Not a mason
Proof he might be the cop below

.....

Having re-examined inHim last night, I no longer believe that he is likely to be scum. I think I was just getting a bit to OMGUSy over his attacks on me. I still don't particularly like them, but I can kindasorta see where he was coming from. I've already put TCS in pretty much the exact same boat.

Glork is the cop!? Inhim is innocent/N2 Target.

Also glork, someone in the general discussion thread said that when you are pro-town you "reek of pro-town". You don't reek of pro-town this game. hmm?

Do you need me to start linking games where people found me scummy but I was town?

I find it rather absurd that you're taking one player's opinion and using it as law to meta me. For the record, the player who said that about me was Zindaras.
1) Zindaras and I have been playing mafia together since before either of us knew what MafiaScum was. I can say with the utmost confidence that there is no other player who can get more out of my posts to get a good read on me.
2) What one player (in this case, Zindaras) believes to be pro-town is not always what another player believes to be pro-town. This statement is proven by simple observation. If everybody thought that the same things were pro-town, all of the townies would agree on every lynch. The fact that there's so much debate in each and every mafia game, even amongst protown players, is testament to the fact that no two players find the same things pro-town or scummy.
**Case in point: My assessment of Albert's play in this very game. He alleged that shameless bandwagoning was a good way of hunting scum. I told him that he was going about it all wrong, that it takes a specific eye for reactions to bandwagons to make such tactics effective, and that even then it's a very dangerous game to play.
**Further case in point: The debate regarding BM's alleged "always scumminess." Some argue that BM is responsible for his actions in each game, regardless of what the meta towards him is. BM asserted that instead of just saying "oh, he's being scummy again, let's vote him" players should be looking at what makes him scum this time around as to the scummy town that he "usually" is.

I grow tired of this charade.

Either Glork or Jack is mafiascum. Explains the immediate Zindy kill. Jack didn't want Zindy confirming Glork or Glork didn't want Zindy outing him.

If you notice here, I'm not

entirely

sure that Glork is the cop. In my opinion there are two possibilities, Glork is either cop or scum. But I'm starting to lean toward cop direction. At this point I'm re-reading Glork, Jack, HH, and Guardian; as well as completely examining the lead-up to the near Guardian lynch on D2.

Also, the reason that I wasn't so gung ho about getting Guardian, for the reason you stated: "Because he would mess up the game if he stayed." Simply, I didn't understand that position yet. If you looked further into the day, when I DID attack Guardian, I realized that. It was one of the main reasons I STAYED on the lynch. Even if Guardian was town, at that point him staying in the game hurt the town. I agreed with that point eventually, I just didn't understand it right away...

Post #2066: You give a vote count and vote HH to "even him up with Guardian." To me this makes no sense at all. First, in your "game summary" post you barely mentioned HH, other than to say you agreed with some of his thoughts on TCS. But, as noted above, you said later you were willing to pursue a HH lynch if that is where the game went, and in #2066 you claimed that both HH and Guardian were high on your list, although you had never pointed out anything that you found suspicious about HH. As much as you had talked about Guardian, the "evening up" vote of HH doesn't make any sense... and Jack pointed it out in the next post. In post #2070 Guardian posted his "I'm drunk, weeeee, I'm town post" and shortly thereafter you changed your vote to Guardian.

I'm leaning further toward Glork as possible cop now. In addition, if you noticed my wrap up of why I voted Guardian: Post #2088. I was re-reading Guadian's lynch on Day 2 when he made those posts. I was literally ON THE POSTS he made when he was "drunk" the first time. I noticed him breadcrumbing the doc claim and also him pointing out the breadcrumbs. That was what finally convinced me to vote for him.

I find the above occurrences to be very strange. Why the vote for HH? The unwillingness to vote for Guardian tells me two things. You wanted to make sure that going after Guardian on a LAL basis was not going to hurt you later, and you probably didn't really want to see Guardian lynched anyway, otherwise you would have voted Guardian instead of HH, who you hadn't talked about significantly in game. When Guardian posted his obnoxious drunk post you quickly jumped your vote to him. I think you saw those posts and felt Guardian was going to be the lynch, so you might as well be on it, and you also saw a way to avoid having to answer Jack's statement about switching your vote to HH.

That is just not true. I wasn't sure about Guardian yet, so I was following what I thought at the time was GlorkCop. I didn't answer Jack's question for three reasons. 1) Yes, I was re-reading then and noticed Guardian's 'interesting' reaction. By the time I noticed Jack's question I already had unvoted and voted Guardian. 2) I didn't want to explain that I thought Glork was possibly the cop, and I thought he might have a guilty on HH. 3) To Jack he has been in a game that took 1.5 months per lynch, but I was reading the entire game in one sitting... things were just moving faster for me at the time. It didn't seem odd to me that I didn't wait weeks before voting someone new.

The vote change is also inconsistent with what you are claiming now for your reason to switch to Guardian. In post #2143 you claim that "It wasn't until everything began falling into place that I realized how bad what you did really was. Yos2 and others who have more experience than I do realized it right away, and once I did the math I agreed." I am assuming that your latest post was referring to this reason for your switch on Guardian. I don't see this as being the reason you switched, there was no "convincing arguments by Yos2 and others" in between your vote of HH and vote of Guardian.

I basically was saying that I didn't understand to what extant having Guardian in the game late game might really fuck up the town. It wasn't until I started understanding that, and noticing how thoroughly he thought through this claim in advance of him actually claiming that I realized he needed to be lynched.

After your vote switch you were incredibly gung-ho about the Guardian lynch, and you posted a significant dialog with Guardian pointing out his bad play. It makes some sense , I guess, but considering you weren't engaging in that discussion before your vote I wonder what the motivation was. You claimed (to Guardian) at the time that you could have just said "Lynch him, LaL, yeyeyeyeyeye", but instead you were spending a lot of time trying to "explain" to him the error of his ways and help make him a better player. If you were really interested in that, why did you not do this before you voted and immediately after his "unclaim"? I get a bit of a "see how helpful I am being!" feel from these posts; kind of a buddying up to town in general.

When I started arguing with Guardian I had already decided 100% he was going to die, but I've been in more games with Guardian than anyone else on this forum. And so far in two of them I've felt really bad about lynching him >>. Yos can attest, in the first game (24 Mafia Mini, finished) I was scum, but the entire time I attacked him and picked him apart relentlessly. I really don't like being that kind of person, but at the time I felt like that was the right play, and it was. The scum won a flawless victory in that game.

Since then I had been trying to apologize to Guardian for the way I acted. Even after 24 mafia I made a funny jab at him in the Mini Theme Queue when he signed up for Ibby's game that I regretted. Ibby messaged me on aim and told me that Guardian actually took it personally, which I never intended. It was just a joke to me, and I said that in the thread after word saying that and even sent him a PM apologizing and asking him to please not drop out of Ibby's game because I was a jerk.

So now when I realized Guardian had to be lynched again, honestly I was trying to explain to him how much of a fuck up he made. I didn't think anyone else was going to at least do that for him, since he REALLY didn't understand exactly how big of a deal this was. So I wanted him to completely understand I really didn't

want

to do this, but for the betterment of the town I had to. Hell, that is among the reasons why I held my vote for as long as I did and tried to deny doing it...

All in all I find your treatment of the Guardian wagon to be scummy, and your play in general on day 3 to be pretty bad. I don't think your explanation of your switch wrt Guardian matches what you claim it to be, and I don't like that even though you stated several times that you thought there was a good possibility of Guardian being a SK and knowing that he lied about his doc claim, you still seemed more interested in a TCS lynch and in a HH lynch, a player you had barely analyzed at all.

I've explained my reasons, this time maybe a little more thoroughly, but I honestly don't think I did a bad job on day 3 or when I explained myself the first time.

By the end of day 3 I felt Guardian was inevitable and was starting to look for day 4.

Here is another, more concrete inconsistency in your play. In post #2206, you state that you

KNEW

Glork was a cop when he made his post #1985. But in post #2015, your general summary post, you

specifically state

that "Glork: Could be teamscum or SK. That being said he was rather pivotal to getting Sarcastro lynched, and with one of the doctors saying they protected him and a mafia no kill, we have too many inconsistencies." If you KNEW at the time that you made this post that Glork was a cop, why make this statement? Why mention Glork at all? You claim that HH was one person "at the top of your list", but you didn't mention him in this post. If someone who you really thought might be scum wasn't worth mentioning, why place someone in the list who you claim to know for sure was a cop, and then why put ambiguity on that person's role? I mean, I could see mentioning him and saying "I really thing Glork is pro-town because of the night kill not going through, or this and that and the other." Instead you say he could be teamscum or SK, but you just aren't sure and there are too many inconsistencies? Earlier in the post you said "Now assuming BM is town, we can suspect there are 2-3 scum on this wagon as well. Sarcastro has already been outed, so this leaves Glork, BT, TCS, and YB left (Guardian is excluded because of his low likeliness to be teamscum)." If you thought that Guardian's low likely hood of being teamscum should evict him from that list, how could you not have taken Glork off if you KNEW he was a cop? You could have easily done this without outing him: "Glork initiated the bandwagon so I don't find him scummy" or the like. All in all in this post, you seem to be leaving open the possibility of voting for him later; why would you do that if you knew he was a cop?

Either you are lying now and you had no idea that he was a cop when you made your summary post, or you

did

know he was a cop then, and didn't mind leaving suspicion on him as long as he hadn't claimed. Either way I find your play scummy, and I want a really good explanation for these events.

Because I wasn't sure yet... Read above, those are my actual notes. Explains this "inconsistency" consistently. I wasn't

sure

Glork was cop until Mana came up dead. As soon as that happened I did this equation in my head:

Mana is the only doc. Glork was the scum target N2. Guardian wasn't the scum target because there is no 2nd doc. Glork cannot be mafia. Glork must be cop.

Perfectly consistent actually.

I'll admit, I was already

leaning

toward the Glork as a cop before this, but I was trying to force myself to remember he could also be mafia.

BTW, you still have to be held accountable for BM's play, which I found to be very strange anyway; don't think that just because you can't know his motivations for his actions means that you don't have to live up to inconsistency in his play. BM is one of the hardest players for me to get a read on, but it seems very obvious to me that he really wanted to stay in this game but simply couldn't keep up with how fast it was on day 1 and 2. I don't see BM playing that way if he was vanilla town: we already have both cops, you've stated yourself that there is probably not another doc in the game, the chances of a vig being in the game are minuscule (and I can't imagine BM not using it N1 if he was so excited about playing vig), and you have stated several times that you don't know if there are masons in the game or not, implying that you aren't a mason. If all of these are true then it leaves only 2 possible power roles left for Battle Mage to have been; unfortunately for you, both those roles are anti-town.

Or... BM was a vanilla townie that didn't find this game very important because he wasn't a power role. He neglected it and didn't want to constantly catch up since it was moving so fast. The first time he was replaced he was annoyed/hurt, and decided to try and get back involved. He failed, and didn't try and stop being replaced the second time.

[Kinetic]

Vote:MBL

Fos:BT

If you live the night Glork, could you check BT out possibly?

[Kinetic]

1. Shteven - Possible Scum
2. MrBuddyLee (MBL) - Possible SK scum
5. The Central Scrutinizer (TCS) - Innocent Cop Result

6. Coron

6. inHimshallIbe - Innocent Cop Result

9. BattleMage

9. Kinetic - Like, totally awesome
12. Glork - Cop
15. Billy Twilight - Totally suspicious.
16. Jack - Totally suspicious, I'm fairly certain he killed Zindy.
17. Yogurt Bandit - Totally was bussed like twice. Scum? Still possible.

18. Nik Zero

18. Yosarian2 - Innocent Cop Result

So yea, as I see it, going after the innocent cop results at this time is just a waste in time. For all we know the godfather isn't even among them.

That leaves:

Shteven
MBL
BT
Jack
Kinetic (Me!)
YB

Of those 6, at least two are scum, possibly up to three. And if the Godfather is among these six, and we some how nab him, then we know the last two scum are among these six.

It just makes logical sense to start narrowing down this group. I understand this, and I am IN this group.

As I see it, the three that look the most suspicious to me personally are MBL, BT, and Jack. I havn't been playing long enough to really know exactly how scummy though, so at this point I'm going to trust Glork's opinion on this matter. Sorry MBL, you're just the first one chosen...

[Kinetic]

Yos: Which is entirely possible. Glork presented evidence that ML has done just that before, many times. Glork's case pretty much has MBL dead to rights. Its much more likely he's SK, but there isn't no chance he's mafia either.

[Kinetic]

<-- Read most of the end of Face-to-Face because I was bored and was following random large games. I saw what MGM did (lol) and what MBL tried to do.

Didn't intend to lead you Glork, but I would like to know what you think of the remaining unknowns on the list before the night. Possibilities of BT being scum has already been shared, and your own personal crusade throughout the game on Shteven will obviously be looked over after today.

But the person I'm most interested in hearing your opinion about is Jack. I'll tell you the truth, his exchange with you earlier about Zindy (it is quoted in my resposne to BT. I saved that one because it really stuck out to me) is what had me thinking that one of the two of you were scum. Seemed quite odd to me that Zindy was instant killed before he even made a post in the game (save his joke posts with YB earlier). Was someone who knew your history with Zindy trying to silence him? Seems ironic to me that very topic came up earlier int he game.

I'm suspicious of BT mainly because of the timing of his huge attack on me. Seems like he was trying to get suspicion off of MBL why attacking someone else that could be scum. If MBL does come up mafiascum (or even Godfather, like I'm thinking now), BT seems like a possible last goon (or the godfather if MBL comes up goon).

Unless there is some sly 2nd doc, it looks very much like, even if MBL is the SK, that the mafia will be using you as their target, so I'm trying to pick your brain as much as possible before that happens.

[Kinetic]

So, MBL is at -2 by my count. Thought I would just throw that out there so anyone who votes now notices that.

[Kinetic]

O shit... I didn't even realize that the SK was Investigation Immune...

>> Way to go with my reading...

Anyway, MBL is only at -2 right now, he has plenty of time in my opinion. This isn't the Guardian lynch, we still can learn somethings from this lynch. I don't expect the -1 vote for at least a week, maybe two.

[Kinetic]

***note to metagamers: This is MBL trying to break that rule as scum by leading the mislynch of a townie.

I'm sorry, reading BT's response to my response is just hilarious. I explained myself and I don't think you "breaking down" my explanation is anything more than scum trying to pull something from nothing.

I originally thought BT was trying to pull something out of nothing to defend MBL and this is going exactly that way. BT

looks

like a Goon trying to defend MBL, who I'm now convinced is the Godfather.

My vote stands and I don't see any reason for changing it. The fact that TCS backed out means nothing because even

with

the innocent result I was leaning toward him as the possible one scum.

I'm not backing down, and I will not get scared by this bull. I stand by the statements I've made so far, and intentions behind those statements.

[Kinetic]

Jack: No, I'm not going to post all of my notes. They're mine. I posted those ones just because it seemed perfectly consistent with what I thought at the time and would be helpful in noticing.

The reason I thought in my notes that one of you was scum was because it seemed very odd to me that Zindy was killed so quickly. We know he was watching the game because he posted in the game in a joke with YB. So it was of my opinion that someone didn't want Zindy coming into the game so quickly with the knowledge he might have. To me that looked really bad for Glork. I also remembered that exchange you had with Glork and decided to keep it in my notes to look at again if needed. To me that gave you a reason to want Zindy dead quick too.

If you're mafia and Zindy can claim (with a lot of certainty) whether Glork was scum or not, that would hurt you. And don't act like

anyone

would have immeditely made that connection. Glork had to correct you in this game that the comments made in that thread pretty much only applied to Zindy. As I see it, that looks scummy for you.

Yos2: Maybe. When I play as scum I feel like I'm a lot more calculating. I know what my objectives are and I know what my goals are and I also know who are my friends. If you look at my wiki, I'm 2/2 when scum, and 0/1 as town. If you want to believe me: I really don't quite know how to play on the town side yet and am still learning. Playing scum just seems a lot easier to me.

Lastly Jack:

2nd question.

Well I'm right now at the beginning/middle of Day 2 in my reading, before the Guardian lynch/claim really takes off, and I'm mighty suspicious of TCS. I'm going to Vote:TCS at this time.

I agree on a lot of your ideas about TCS Hacker, he keeps coming back as generally scummy in my book as well.

TCS: Continually in the wrong place at the wrong time. Between him and BT, both are very close in my book, but I prefer TCS for the reasons stated above and because I'm slightly less suspicious of BT.

My vote stays on TCS. I still have about 10 more pages of rereading to go, but I've been jumping back and forth and doing some targeted rereads. I'm fairly confident TCS is part of the mafia.

The way I feel about it, I feel strong enough to push for TCS at this time and I'll vote for HH if the lynch gets moving.

I don't exactly know how well I believe Guardian right now, but I felt strongly he might be the SK well before his secondary claim, and his latest claim hasn't exactly inspired confidence in me.

I won't personally push for Guardian's vote, but I will vote for him if that seems to be the way this day goes.

*side note: kinetic is willing to lynch whoever is most popular*

Meh... At this point I'd much prefer us going after TCS... that being said both HH and Guardian are high on my list...

Vote:HH

That should put them both at -3.

Unvote, Vote:Guardian

I don't like fake drunk Guardian. He's worse at lying when he is pretending to be drunk then when he is trying to be serious.

Vote:TCS

Your inactivity up until now, coupled with my previous points on Day 3 still stand.

I'm going to cut you off right here. There are some important posts that happened between now and then, Specifically:

Unvote

Bleh.

I'm also going to have to reread these last two pages, it's a bit late to pour over them for now (the kinetic/BT stuff; I read Glork's posts). But I do want to respond to Glork's claim:

Unvote.

I mean, I can't be certain, there's no proof, but there's a lot of supporting evidence here.

Let's throw up the player list:

Group 1: Innocents.
TCS - Innocent result, possible Godfather.
Inhim - Innocent result, possible Godfather.
Yos - Innocent result, possible Godfather.

Group 2: No Results:
Shteven
MBL
Kinetic
BillyTwilight
Jack
Yogurt Bandit

Glork - Claimed cop.

So then there would be 0 or 1 scum in group 1, and 1 or 2 scum in group 2. SK would have to be in group 2.

If he's telling the truth, that's a lot of information. I believe the claim, but after all the back and forth over these days, it's a bit hard to swallow. Especially with him not investigating me...That would have made quite a bit more sense!

Of course, this just supports the TCS is the god father wagon, but hey. I'll lay off that one for now.

Note: According to Shteven's math here, the SK is not Investigation Immune.

1. Shteven - Possible Scum
2. MrBuddyLee (MBL) - Possible SK scum
5. The Central Scrutinizer (TCS) - Innocent Cop Result

6. Coron

6. inHimshallIbe - Innocent Cop Result

9. BattleMage

9. Kinetic - Like, totally awesome
12. Glork - Cop
15. Billy Twilight - Totally suspicious.
16. Jack - Totally suspicious, I'm fairly certain he killed Zindy.
17. Yogurt Bandit - Totally was bussed like twice. Scum? Still possible.

18. Nik Zero

18. Yosarian2 - Innocent Cop Result

So yea, as I see it, going after the innocent cop results at this time is just a waste in time. For all we know the godfather isn't even among them.

That leaves:

Shteven
MBL
BT
Jack
Kinetic (Me!)
YB

Of those 6, at least two are scum, possibly up to three. And if the Godfather is among these six, and we some how nab him, then we know the last two scum are among these six.

It just makes logical sense to start narrowing down this group. I understand this, and I am IN this group.

As I see it, the three that look the most suspicious to me personally are MBL, BT, and Jack. I havn't been playing long enough to really know exactly how scummy though, so at this point I'm going to trust Glork's opinion on this matter. Sorry MBL, you're just the first one chosen...

But then somethings happened:

We need to put MUCH less faith in Glork's innocent results. They are very nearly worthless. This is not because Glork isn't a cop; he very likely is. This is because

both the godfather and the SK are investigation immune.

If he did investigate (one of the remaining) scum, there's only a 1/3 chance that he would even know.

O shit... I didn't even realize that the SK was Investigation Immune...

The last quote is very interesting when you look at the previous quotes on TCS. Care to explain?

So that is my explanation. Originally I didn't realize that the SK was Immune, in fact, I wasn't the only one that made that mistake. I didn't realize until Shteven mentioned it.

So now: I'll admit, the cop results aren't as strong as I originally thought. It is certainly possible that one, or even two, of the "cop innocents" could be scum. However I still feel fairly certain that there is a better than good chance that 2 of the scum are in the second group.

Of the three there, if any of them were scum I feel it would be TCS, but when I thought at best only one of them could be scum, and even that wasn't certain, the 2/6 scum chance, or possibly even 3/6 scum chance seemed like the right play.

I still think it is better to lynch someone in the non cop innocent results, but if we do mislynch a townie, then tomorrow I'll be more willing to look more deeply into the three "cop innocents".

[Kinetic]

I'm not ignoring that statement. I never said it points to you definitely being mafia. But I don't like coincidences. Coincidences, in my opinion, can be one of two things. Clever planning to look like circumstances fall into place, or harmless unintended slip ups. It certainly IS possible that you had nothing to do with Zindy's death, but I just found that this conversation took place here to be very interesting and coincidental.

But I did look back, and you're right, I didn't originally notice that this conversation happened after the Zindy kill. That is my mistake and it definitely changes the perspective. Blame it on 80 page overload? I've been doing that a lot, but none the less I should have realized that. My own defense is that I never put a time stamp about it in my notes and I should have. Then again, I never thought I would post that when I originally found it.

So I'll chalk that up as a possible coincidence, but none the less it still seems odd, before or after Zindy's death. Someone could have wanted him to keep Glork in the dark...

O.O

I'll be right back... I need to check something...

[Kinetic]

Glork: I need your help. I keep referencing Mafia 60 and reading into both MBL's behavior and your attacks against him on the second to last day. I'm looking specifically for a comment that seemed to come from either Patrick or MGM, and went along the lines of:

One of them said: They thought that the reason that Glork didn't think Zindy was scum and hopped off his wagon was not because of something Zindy did, but because of the people attacking him.

And you said something back along the lines of: Finally, someone understands me.

I'm having the hardest time finding this, and the timing on when this exchange is crucial. I'm pretty sure it also had something to do with MBL.

Anyway: as to you MBL, I understand what you're trying to accomplish with that question. One, you want to try and humiliate me away from voting you. You are trying to say "Well if you can't do this then you're scum, so no one should believe you." Two, you think that no matter what argument I make, you'll find some way to break it down and call me scum because of SOMETHING. and Three, it will be a huge distraction from you. That is all that I see in the people attacking me and trying to wagon me right now, a huge smokescreen, a distraction, and I refuse to participate.

Most of the reason I find you scummy MBL is that your interactions in Mafia 60 and in here are eerily familiar. With Glork so sure of your guilt, I'm going to have to side with him on the "Who do I believe more" scale.

[Kinetic]

Clearly. Also, there's a good chance of the mafia killing mbl tonight.

Is that an... admission?

[Kinetic]

I'll tell you the truth, I really don't like certain "attitudes" and "points" that Jack has presented...

First he things that the mafia will "obviously" kill MBL. He's so sure he doesn't even put down any reasoning.

However, in my opinion, the Mafia have a lot more to worry about from Glork than MBL at this point. Glork can really only find one of their goons. The SK, for all he cares, might not even worry about Glork. He can't hurt him.

Now if MBL is the SK, like Jack thinks, then why does he think that Mafia will go after MBL? If I am mafia, I'm either the Godfather (which would eliminate 3 other people from possibly being it.) and thus immune to Glork's inevitable investigation (Well, that depends if MBL is lynched and what he comes up as. If he's mafia I think Glork won't investigate me. If he's SK I think he will. Not trying to direct you, just guessing out loud.)

To tell you the honest truth, MBL has more to worry about if he's mafia about being NKed by the SK then if he's the SK. I see Glork as higher priority in the mafia's eyes. While if MBL is alive tonight that means I've been most likely lynched. We go into day 5 with 4-5 townies, 1-2 mafia, and the SK. But basically, it all boils down to if the SK hits MBL and he's Mafia or not. If I'm lynched, and MBL isn't mafia, we're looking at 4 townies, 2 mafia, and 1 SK. If he is, we're at a much more manageable 5 townies, 1 mafia, 1 SK. Also, depending on which mafia MBL is, we could possibly eliminate up to 3 people from the last mafia pool.

So, all-in-all, IF MBL is the SK, he doesn't need to worry about NKs right now. Mafia are most likely not going to target him. If he is Mafia, he does.

So Jack, if you TRULY believe that MBL is SK and you are not mafia, then by this logic MBL IS the lynch for today.

[Kinetic]

EMWOP: Bleh, started a point then didn't finish it. The whole paragraph is posted here as it was in my head.

Now if MBL is the SK, like Jack thinks, then why does he think that Mafia will go after MBL? If I am mafia, I'm either the Godfather (which would eliminate 3 other people from possibly being it.) and thus immune to Glork's inevitable investigation (Well, that depends if MBL is lynched and what he comes up as. If he's mafia I think Glork won't investigate me. If he's SK I think he will. Not trying to direct you, just guessing out loud.) or I'm a grunt, and then taking a huge risk in being noticed by Glork and possibly drawing his investigation. Glork hasn't been choosing his investigations based on his own judgment (Shteven and MBL might already be investigated if so), but because of last minute quips or quotes at the end of the day he thinks might lead to a scum tell.

[Kinetic]

@Kinetic: imo you have a 50% chance of being the goon. If we lynch you as goon, then glork is no threat. I think the gf would worry about the kill and kill mbl, and it's possible that mbl would kill the gf. This situation is advantageous to us. If your the gf then they'll kill glork of course, that's why I said "good chance".

Will you post the rest of your notes?

Bleh, I really don't want to >> I haven't updated them at all since the beginning of this day, and honestly they were only a reference so that I could keep all the people in this game apart in my head so I didn't confuse them with either other games or with each other. (During my re-read I kept interchanging your posts and BT's posts near the beginning, ugh).

Not to mention I don't normally take notes... for anything. School, class, etc. I'm really bad at taking them. I've already been made fun of once because of them in this game, and I really don't like that. If you MUST see them, bleh, I'll post them. But do you really need to?

[Kinetic]

Its much more likely he's SK, but there isn't no chance he's mafia either.

If MBL does come up mafiascum (or even Godfather, like I'm thinking now)

BT looks like a Goon trying to defend MBL, who I'm now convinced is the Godfather.

So, Kinetic, you went from thinking I was "much more likely SK" to "Godfather, like I'm thinking now" in a span of 47 minutes? And then became entirely convinced over the next 24 hours? I'd love to hear the thought process behind that shift of opinion.

Ummm, what? I'm trying to find those posts real fast but the first inconsistency I found was the time/date stamps are wrong....

On Sept 6, these are the posts "made" when I supposedly made that comment.

Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:16 pm Post subject: 2226

unvote, vote: MBL

That has got to be the worst argument I have ever heard.

Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:25 pm Post subject: 2227

Fine, lynch me impulsively and hand the various flavors of scum the game. Hurry!

I just got back from 12 days in the desert. I'm not going to make perfect sense right off the bat after skimming what's happened. Give me some time here to read the game and see which manipulative bastard didn't REALLY believe Guardian or Huck were scum. I also want to reread people's arguments in favor of voting me to see which have even the slightest ounce of merit. I've played a VERY protown game thus far, and you guys are borderline retarded for finding me scummy. If you have the time, please clarify your cases so I can see which of them ooze pus. Thanks.

Ummm where is my magical post in between? I'm currently looking for that post so I can read my own context and defend myself. Maybe its somewhere else, and you just got the dates wrong. The time lag might even still be there, but since you were SO specific, I just wanted to read my own comments myself before I replied to them

[Kinetic]

The New C9 Edit/Delete this post Delete this post
( Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 2:50 am )

Roles left:
0-1 Vig - High likelihood there is no vig
0/2 Masons Shteven? possible no masons...
0-1 Cop Glork? Would explain why he thinks there are not many power roles left.
0-2 Doc: Mana and Guardian have claimed Doc. Both of them were majorly suspicious before this. Mana was one of the people I thought was mafia, and I felt sure Guardian could be SK...
+ = Scum tell


1. Shteven
He's been acting strange all game. Mason? Who's his partner? Mafia?
Gains townie points from Sarcastro...

2. MrBuddyLee (MBL)
Seems town.

5. The Central Scrutinizer (TCS)
Vote Positioning suggests possible scum
Inhim noted a clear consensus on TCS's movements on Day 1 during Day 2. Since I know BM was town it leads more credence to his theory.

6. Coron 6. inHimshallIbe
Vote Positioning suggests possible scum
Possible Teamscum outlook
+
Mason?
Good reasonsing beginning day 2


8. HackerHuck
Vote Positioning suggests possible scum
+

11. Guardian
Claimed Doctor
Possible Serial Killer?

12. Glork
I have a strong feeling he might be one of the remaining team scum
No.. He's a power role. Seems possible he's the cop.
Not a mason
Proof he might be the cop below

15. Billy Twilight
Vote Positioning suggests possible scum
+
Really don't like his posts/conclusions...

16. Jack
+

17. Yogurt Bandit
Two wagons on him, both have failed at the last moment. High likelihood of town after the second failed wagon.
Not a mason
High unlikeliness of being SK

18. Nik Zero 18. Yosarian2


19. Johhan 19. Xyzzy 19.ManaSpryte
Vote Positioning suggests possible scum
High likelihood of teamscum
Not Mason
Doctor??? Seems possible...
After reading his first post, I'm fairly convinced he's newbie doc... -.-

Dead
10. JDodge - Cop - Shot - Night 1
4. SpectrumVoid (SV) - Townie - Chainsawed - Night 1
Killed before Day 1.

13. Albert B. Rampage - Townie - Deadline Lynched - Day 1
Final Vote Count
Albert B. Rampage[town] – 8 – Yosarian2, xyzzy, MrBuddyLee, HackerHuck, YogurtBandit, Shteven, The Central Scrutinizer, inHimShallIBe
YogurtBandit – 8 – Sarcastro[scum], Billy Twilight, HungryJoe, Jack, Glork, Albert B. Rampage[town], Mastermind of Sin[scum], Guardian
Guardian – 2 – Battle Mage[town], AutumnEvenings[town]

3. HungryJoe 3. Zindaras - Townie - Shot - Night 2
Not killed for something HJ did. Killed by Glork since Zindy knows Glork so well? Would also help fit JDodge with Glork scum...

7. ~N9V~ 7. Mastermind Of Sin - Mafia Goon - Chainsawed - Night 2
Calls Glork "Very Protown", called BBB protown, despite little to no information on him... Billy Twilight? TCS?

20. BeanBagBoy (BBB) 20. Plessiez 20. Sarcastro -Mafia Goon - Lynched - Day 2
6 votes for Sarcastro[scum] (AutumnEvenings[town], Shteven, YB, MBL, Glork, Guardian)
6 votes for Yogurt Bandit (HackerHuck, ManaSpryte, InHim, BillyTwilight, Jack, TCS)
1 vote for InHim (Yosarian2)
1 vote for Guardian (BattleMage)
1 vote for Shteven (Sarcastro[scum])
14. Haut Boy 14. AutumnEvenings - Townie - Chainsawed - Night 3

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Albert B. Rampage – 8 – Yosarian2, xyzzy, MrBuddyLee, HackerHuck, YogurtBandit, Shteven, The Central Scrutinizer, inHimShallIBe
YogurtBandit – 8 – Sarcastro, Billy Twilight, HungryJoe, Jack, Glork, Albert B. Rampage, Mastermind of Sin, Guardian

Guardian – 2 – Battle Mage, AutumnEvenings

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Battle Mage early bandwagon – 8 - Glork, BillyTwilight, Guardian, AutumnEvenings, HungryJoe, The Central Scrutinizer, yogurtbandit, Sarcastro

If BM is town or SK, I expect there to be two scum in the above. If he is scum, very likely there is only one scum voting him.

End of Day spread:
Voting for ABR – YB, TCS
Voting for YB – Glork, BT, Hungry Joe, Sarcastro, Guardian
Not voting either of the above – AE

People that I mentally clear: YB, BT, AE – this leaves TCS, Glork, Sarcastro, Guardian where there is at least one scum, again imo. I noted the Day’s end vote counts because I think scum would separate themselves after being clumped together on an early bandwagon (remember this all hinges on the fact that I believe BM is town). Given all these assumptions, I see an isolation.

vote: The Central Scrutinizer - and now I also see the unprovoked unvote of Guardian. Yes, I liked this vote Yesterday, and encourage it Today.

Having re-examined inHim last night, I no longer believe that he is likely to be scum. I think I was just getting a bit to OMGUSy over his attacks on me. I still don't particularly like them, but I can kindasorta see where he was coming from. I've already put TCS in pretty much the exact same boat.

Glork is the cop!? Inhim is innocent/N2 Target.

Also glork, someone in the general discussion thread said that when you are pro-town you "reek of pro-town". You don't reek of pro-town this game. hmm?

Do you need me to start linking games where people found me scummy but I was town?

I find it rather absurd that you're taking one player's opinion and using it as law to meta me. For the record, the player who said that about me was Zindaras.
1) Zindaras and I have been playing mafia together since before either of us knew what MafiaScum was. I can say with the utmost confidence that there is no other player who can get more out of my posts to get a good read on me.
2) What one player (in this case, Zindaras) believes to be pro-town is not always what another player believes to be pro-town. This statement is proven by simple observation. If everybody thought that the same things were pro-town, all of the townies would agree on every lynch. The fact that there's so much debate in each and every mafia game, even amongst protown players, is testament to the fact that no two players find the same things pro-town or scummy.
**Case in point: My assessment of Albert's play in this very game. He alleged that shameless bandwagoning was a good way of hunting scum. I told him that he was going about it all wrong, that it takes a specific eye for reactions to bandwagons to make such tactics effective, and that even then it's a very dangerous game to play.
**Further case in point: The debate regarding BM's alleged "always scumminess." Some argue that BM is responsible for his actions in each game, regardless of what the meta towards him is. BM asserted that instead of just saying "oh, he's being scummy again, let's vote him" players should be looking at what makes him scum this time around as to the scummy town that he "usually" is.

I grow tired of this charade.

Either Glork or Jack is mafiascum. Explains the immediate Zindy kill. Jack didn't want Zindy confirming Glork and Glork didn't want Zindy outing him.

---------------

Here. They are unorganized and I don't feel like going back and organizing them. Have fun.

[Kinetic]

Ah, so you WERE taking me out of context. Grats MBL. Remember, when using the targeted reread function, remember to go back and find those posts in the thread so you can see what ELSE was happening then. The prompts to why something was posted and what happened after/in-between them are often just as important if not more than the actual comments.

...

I suppose logically if we really think MBL probably isn't mafia, he's probably not the best lynch for today; we've got better odds going for one of the people that could be SK or scum, and I agree that his sarc vote makes it less likely he's mafia. He's looked quite scummy since he's got back, and I hate to let him off the hook for that, but I'm thinking he's probably not the best lynch for today unless we think it's possible he could be a mafia who bussed Sarc.

Yos: Which is entirely possible. Glork presented evidence that ML has done just that before, many times. Glork's case pretty much has MBL dead to rights. Its much more likely he's SK, but there isn't no chance he's mafia either.

So this post is in response to Yos asking me if I only thought your were possibly the SK. In which, I state, that while I believe the SK case is the more likely of the two, Glork's case basically presents you as mafia, which I start to agree with after:

Hi, please recall Face-To-Face and then tell me that you don't try to bus and then garner credit for it and/or use it to your advantage.(...)

(...)Kinetic (ironically enough) summed it up well in that MBL is not only likely to be the SK, but his behavior is certainly

NOT

indicative of him being non-mafia.

I'm suspicious of BT mainly because of the timing of his huge attack on me. Seems like he was trying to get suspicion off of MBL why attacking someone else that could be scum. If MBL does come up mafiascum (or even Godfather, like I'm thinking now), BT seems like a possible last goon (or the godfather if MBL comes up goon).

and finally:

I'm sorry, reading BT's response to my response is just hilarious. I explained myself and I don't think you "breaking down" my explanation is anything more than scum trying to pull something from nothing.

I originally thought BT was trying to pull something out of nothing to defend MBL and this is going exactly that way. BT looks like a Goon trying to defend MBL, who I'm now convinced is the Godfather.

I thought you had a high chance of being mafia or SK. BT's consistently scummy defense of you has me leaning to you being his scum buddy. And the most logical explanation for that is you are the Godfather and he is the goon.

[Kinetic]

EBWOP:

I'm suspicious of BT mainly because of the timing of his huge attack on me. Seems like he was trying to get suspicion off of MBL why attacking someone else that could be scum. If MBL does come up mafiascum (or even Godfather, like I'm thinking now), BT seems like a possible last goon (or the godfather if MBL comes up goon).

Defeated by pHpbb again!

[Kinetic]

I'll tell you the truth, I really don't like certain "attitudes" and "points" that Jack has presented...

First he things that the mafia will "obviously" kill MBL. He's so sure he doesn't even put down any reasoning.

However, in my opinion, the Mafia have a lot more to worry about from Glork than MBL at this point. Glork can really only find one of their goons. The SK, for all he cares, might not even worry about Glork. He can't hurt him.

...

To tell you the honest truth, MBL has more to worry about if he's mafia about being NKed by the SK then if he's the SK. I see Glork as higher priority in the mafia's eyes. While if MBL is alive tonight that means I've been most likely lynched. We go into day 5 with 4-5 townies, 1-2 mafia, and the SK. But basically, it all boils down to if the SK hits MBL and he's Mafia or not. If I'm lynched, and MBL isn't mafia, we're looking at 4 townies, 2 mafia, and 1 SK. If he is, we're at a much more manageable 5 townies, 1 mafia, 1 SK. Also, depending on which mafia MBL is, we could possibly eliminate up to 3 people from the last mafia pool.

So, all-in-all, IF MBL is the SK, he doesn't need to worry about NKs right now. Mafia are most likely not going to target him. If he is Mafia, he does.

So Jack, if you TRULY believe that MBL is SK and you are not mafia, then by this logic MBL IS the lynch for today.

Man, this post bugs me. Does it feel to anyone else here that Kinetic might be some kind of scum (perhaps SK) trying to direct the other scumgroup in order to avoid having both groups kill the same person?

Him saying "Mafia should kill the cop, SK should not kill the cop" is just incredibly anti-town, and smells of possible in-thread communication to me.

fos:Kinetic

Get over yourself. That was a direct rebuttal to Jack because he said there was "no way" MBL was going to live through the night if he was SK.

My point was to make it apparent that was not "clearly" the case.

[Kinetic]

If we're requesting cliff notes, could I have a cliff notes version of Day 1?

[Kinetic]

I'm still here guys. Not trying to lurk. Circumstances conspire against me. See sig. Be back asap.

[Kinetic]

Kinetic, do you normally take notes when playing? If so, and if you have any available, would you mind posting notes from any other

completed

game you've been in (preferably one you replaced into, but any will suffice, regardless of alliance in that game)? If you can do this I don't mind you only posting a portion of notes from a completed game, or linking to an after game discussion where you posted some notes, etc.

Actually, I normally don't. I'm pretty sure I mentioned that before I posted them, but I only took notes for this game because it was SO long that I didn't want too many things to mess up in my head. It was a lot of information to take in and I wanted to catch up quickly.

I normally don't take notes for anything, college classes for instance, I have a rather good memory recall and I get good enough grades without all the extra hassle. Also, I'm really not good at typing/writing and listening/watching at the same time.

All the other games I've replaced into (1 I think...) were under 10 pages at the time and I didn't really need notes.

This was a special case.

[Kinetic]

Glork: I would choose Jack first, Yos second as your investigations targets.

BT: I don't have the energy to respond... or really anything else... I'm sorta speechless really.

[Kinetic]

Glork: I would choose Jack first, Yos second as your investigations targets.

I predict Yos will come up town.

Billy, I noticed a few of the things you mentioned about Kinetic's notes. I also noticed a protownish tone in between the awkwardness. I also hand it to you--if you're mafia you just pulled an outstanding head fake. I'm more inclined to think you're SK at this point.

Yos, TCS, inHim, MBL
kinetic, bt
jack, shteven, yb, glork

Investigate Jack please. YB would be a close second. Before Billy's last post I'd have had him #2.

*slaps head* Yos was already investigated... wasn't he.

[Kinetic]

Well, this is what I feel right now:

I am pretty sure (50/50) that TCS is scum, but I would like to wait at least until tomorrow to lynch him. I think there are better targets right now.

MBL and Jack are the highest on my lists of scum. I am voting MBL, and I will vote Jack should his lynch be the play for the day.

[Kinetic]

I feel your pain Jack. Just had to read two books and watch ~9 hours of lectures >>

[Kinetic]

I agree MBL. About time you understood. Now vote for yourself and we could get with the Glorking.

[Kinetic]

Correction:

My suspicions have been evaluated, that much I feel is my strongest attribute in this game (this game being mafia). However I don't always relate everything, including my changing opinion, very well. That being said, I've already answered your questions to the degree I'm comfortable with. I understand what you're trying to do, and I'm not going to play that game. Last time I tried to play that game you tried to push a mis-lynch against me. I think its possible that you're the godfather, but I also think its not unlike you to be a goon or even possibly the SK. I no longer think you and BT are on the same team though, and that was my main motivation for thinking you might be the godfather over just a normal goon.

Also, my suspicions of TCS are not really linked to you. I have presented what I feel about him, and I never said I think he's the godfather. I think he might be the godfather or SK, but I'm not sure enough at this time to vote for him. That's why my vote is on you, and not him. Since I think its more likely that you are one of those two positions I think lynching you is a good play and from what I find out with that lynch it will allow me to put more of TCS's behavior into perspective.

[Kinetic]

Currently people i'm suspicious of: Jack (lurking....I just can't stand lurking)

As guessed, White replaces Jack as of this post.

I'm a little flabbergasted...

[Kinetic]

Vote:White

FOS:TCS

FOS:MBL

I really thought Jack might be scum, but so far nothing White has done has made me think otherwise. In fact, I'm even more convinced now.

I still think MBL is scum, something keeps nagging me, but my big three still remain the same on who I think are scummy.

[Kinetic]

I have presented what I feel about him, and I never said I think he's the godfather. I think he might be the godfather or SK

Whoa wait a sec. You say you never said you think he's the GF and then you state you think he might be the GF in the next sentence? Something's not right with that.

What's wrong with it?

I stated that in response to someone (I think MBL) accusing me of saying something I didn't say. I then decided to clear up my intentions by saying what I was thinking so there was no doubt.

[Kinetic]

And if my selection falls on a non-goon, that's just fine by me.

Ping. You don't care if we lynch one of the few remaining town? Have you not been paying attention to the statistics? If we lynch one of our own today we are in almost lylo tomorrow esp if the scum don't cross kill. How can you honestly say this if you're town?

I meant that I have no trouble lynching an investigated innocent if we believe they are the godfather or the SK. If TCS should come up town, I would be very disappointed, but I am confident that he'll come up Godfather/SK. So I am not concerned about finding the goon today. If we got the goon somehow (ie, not on TCS) then I'd certainly be happy; but the SK is a higher priority. After that, the godfather is second. The goon is the least threat; although he may be easier to find.


As far as kinetic's post above, I think the simpliest way to put it is that he didn't think he was exclusively the godfather, that he could be the godfather or the SK.

Umm White wrote that, not me. I was like "When did I right something like that? ... I don't say Ping...."

[Kinetic]

I'm very suspicious of TCS. I'll admit that. Yet I'm much more suspicious of Jack/White. I like my vote right now where it stands. What this feels to me right now is how I felt in Pooky's Open Countdown. It feels to me that the mafia are desperately trying to off the SK and are pushing for that lynch above all others.

[Kinetic]

CTD you stopped at the GOOD PART! Keep reading!

[Kinetic]

If I'm reading MBL correctly, since he is voting for the person I suspect, I can only assume that if White comes up as scum then he will either lower me on his possible scum list, or remove me entirely, depending on what White/Jack is.

However, if White is town, then the three people he FOSed are who he thinks are the scum.

Am I in the ballpark MBL?

[Kinetic]

P.S. Why am I the only one answering CTD's posts?

Because he just finished and its 5 AM where I am so I can only assume most people haven't even read his posts yet. I know I wasn't going to respond much to him until he caught up or even talked about me... its not unheard of for people to wait and find out what his

current

feelings are on the game.

[Kinetic]

Well I haven't posted a lot recently in this game, so I figure with everyone painting me as town I better put up my suspicions .

Also: One more thing- I think if there are masons in this game, they need to claim now. Mainly because I'm starting to think it might be possible that people I think might be scum-buddies might actually be mason-buddies. Did we ever get confirmation from the mod that masons would show up as such at death or if they would show up just as townies?

TCS – 3 – Shteven, white, rogueben

I'll reiterate, I think TCS is scum. I'm not sure right now if I feel more strongly that he could be the SK or the Godfather, but there is

something

that keeps pulling me toward the fact that the mafia think he's the SK. I am willing to bet my life that at least one, if not BOTH of the mafia are on this wagon right now. My suspicion is mostly on White/Jack right now. I never really jived with anything he had to say and everything he did just was fishy. White's play has given me the same awkward feeling. I feel my vote is justified right now.

MBL:

I'm really having a difficult time placing how I feel about him, which is the main reason I haven't really commented on him a lot in the most recent couple of places. I no longer think he is the right lynch today, per se, but I have far from ruled him out as possible scum. At this time I would much more rather find out the alignment of other players and see how that effects my views on MBL.

Glork and BT: Obv Town.

CTD: Undecided, leaning towards town. I think I'll reserve judgment for him at this time.

Shteven: Definitely the enigma. I don't particularly like how he has defended himself or his constant attempts to buddy up toward me. I have realized we have both had similar conclusions toward people(a la TCS), but the way he acts upon these conclusions has me very concerned.

YB/RB: I think it is possible that he

might

be team scum, but I don't see any possibility of him being the SK right now.

Yos2: Much more shady, and I really like CTD's description of his play because it jives with what I see from him as well. The innocent result is really the only thing that players well in his favor in my opinion or else I would be much more crucial in my evaluations of him.

===============================

So my current lists are as follows:

Mafia List:

16. White
1. Shteven
18. Yosarian2

The three players above are the ones that I most think are likely mafia. Yos would obviously have to be the Godfather in this case, but I have a good feeling that Shteven or White are possible mafia. I also don't really think they are mafia together. It is certainly possible, but my gut says no.

2. MrBuddyLee (MBL)
5. The Central Scrutinizer (TCS)

MBL only really edges out TCS as fourth on my list because TCS has an innocent result. If I had to choose between Yos and TCS who I would think is more likely to be godfather at this point, I would choose Yos. Not because that I think Yos is more likely but because

White and Shteven are both my top mafia suspects and they are both voting for TCS

.

17. Rougeben

Undecided very much so on Rougeben. The likelihood of both Sarc and YB being scum is very remote in my opinion and I just can't fathom to see how YB could have survived two near lynches at mafia.

6. CrashTextDummie (CTD)
15. Billy Twilight
12. Glork

BT is obvtown in my opinion. Glork is the claimed and uncontested cop with a good record. CTD is leaning toward non-team scum and town. The innocent result is only a bonus in my opinion.

======================================

Possible SK List:

5. The Central Scrutinizer (TCS)
2. MrBuddyLee (MBL)

My two highest suspects. Right now TCS is edging out MBL because of the odd play from White/Shteven. In my opinion, this seems to me like the mafia are trying to lynch TCS so they can NK MBL and get BOTH of the two most likely to be SK suspects out of the way. This is the main reason I am not, and

will not

vote TCS today. Tomorrow, depending on what happens, I might change my mind. But at this moment TCS is not the right play.

18. Yosarian2

Yos is the only person in my secondary list. His shady activity really sets off my scumdar, but I'm really not sure if I feel he is more likely to be GF or SK. I'm thinking he's more likely to be GF in this situation, but I have not ruled him out as possible SK.

6. CrashTextDummie (CTD)
16. White
1. Shteven

I really don't think that Shteven is SK. Call it a hunch, but it doesn't play right with me. I thought Jack might be the SK originally, but so far White's play, while screaming possible mafia, seems to be whispering at the same time that he is not the SK. CTD, for the most part, seems town in my book, but if he could be scum, SK is the only likelihood in my opinion.

17. Rougeben
15. Billy Twilight
12. Glork

See what I said about Blork/BT under the mafia section. It applies here as well. I still think the likelihood of YB being the SK is VERY VERY low.

[Kinetic]

Shteven: Tunnel vision in the late game, in my limited experience, is more of a scum tell then a town tell. In the late game if a scum is allowed to ONLY focus on one player, they are able to effectively skirt really making a choice on anyone else. If someone else comes up as scum, they can easily just say, "Well I thought he was scum all along", or if someone comes up town they can say, "I thought he was town, XXX should be lynched because he forced the town lynch." But as scum, with your tunnel vision you can always just use mob mentality to write off yourself being on a town lynch. "We I wasn't the only one who thought he was scum. Plus I'm just a townie, I don't have any special power to find scum."

So, to answer your question, no I don't think if you're wrong about TCS you'll be lynched because of it. Others have made enough comments about him being scummy that his lynch will not be the ONLY reason for lynching you.

If you are the SK and TCS is mafia, then you made an excellent play. If you're mafia and you think TCS is the SK (even if you 'say' you think he's godfather to distance yourself from the mafia), and he is, you've made a huge play for the mafia.

I don't see how mafiaShteven, SKShteven, or TownShteven is hurt by forcing a TCS lynch, no matter what TCS comes out as. In addition, certain developments may help general scumShteven immensely, and it is not as big of a gambit as you make it out to be.

[Kinetic]

Shteven, BT, Glork and/or Rogueben need to vote White.

[Kinetic]

Dear Shteven,

TCS was investigated innocent. While not gospel, at this point it would serve the town better to narrow down suspects NOT in this pool. This does not mean we give these players a free pass for the entire game, but at this point they are not a priority.

I would rather vote and lynch someone in the second pool, a pool which could very well pull a godfather or SK out of. If we DO nab a godfather or the SK in the pool of non-investigated players, then we make a huge leap for town. If we hit the last remaining goon, then we open of the field as well.

All-in-all, the town is served by at the very least narrowing down the list of players who could be the goon, which is still a scum role.

Thus, if I am going to switch my vote, it would be to you, not to TCS. Stop with the appeals to emotion, they just make me want to vote YOU not TCS.

As it stands, I would prefer a lynch on White today, and will most likely keep my vote there. However, if I changed it, the only person I could see myself voting for is you Shteven. I would prefer to have a White lynch, but I wouldn't be heartbroken by a Shteven lynch.

Really, go with your read Kinetic. You are MUCH more likely to be correct about one player than to be able to assert something like this."I think player X is mafia and player Y is probably the SK so they are voting player Z who I find scummy but must not actually be."

My current "read" is that White is scum. There are three scum out there, for all I know TCS AND White are scum. But right now I feel that White or possibly you, are the right play for today. Other things, which I have stated have enhanced this read, but they are far from the only reason for voting him, as you claim.

There's just so many places to go wrong there. Vote TCS now and I'll print out the bumper sticker for you!

[sarcasm]Really! Well I better vote him right away then![/sarcasm]

[Kinetic]

I'm keeping my vote on white right now.

That being said, I'm not unhappy with a Shteven lynch... but I still feel more confident that White is scum than Shteven.

I will not be voting TCS today either.

[Kinetic]

My scum list:
White
TCS
Yos
Twilight
Rogueben
Kinetic
Shteven
...
CTD
Glork
(I'm leaving CTD and Glork off of all pairings for now. Glork cause scum almost certainly tried to kill him, CTD because I got strong protown vibes off both him and inHim, and if they're mafia well damn.)

Possible combos:

White+TCS

White+Yos
White+Twilight
White+Rogueben
Twilight+TCS
Twilight+Yos
Twilight+Rogueben

Twilight+Shteven

Rogueben+TCS

Rogueben+Yos
Rogueben+Kinetic
Kinetic+Shteven

Kinetic+White

Kinetic+TCS
Kinetic+Yos
Shteven+White

Shteven+TCS

Shteven+Yos

Twilight+Kinetic
Rogueben+Shteven

Wouldn't the White/Kinetic pairing, by your logic, not work? I'm the first person voting White and I have been pushing it.

[Kinetic]

EBWOP: Wow... I thought you were bolding the likely pairings... just forget my last post...

[Kinetic]

FINALLY OVER!