Mafia 64: The New "C9" - Game over!

[Jack]

guardian. If sk fakeclaims doc, and there are two docs in the setup, once one of them claims then the other will claim. Then you would have been basically screwed. You might have gotten away with claiming townie if it hadn't been for your doc breadcrumbs.

ManaSprytes play was not terrible. If you were both doctors it would have been a while before mafia could take a shot at you (you can protect eachother). Also not he claimed because he did not believe you, and he was right.

[Guardian]

SK has

every

incentive to unclaim. As I stated earlier, if the SK gets countered, he's completely and utterly screwed unless he tries to back off of the claim. If he doesn't back off, he will very likely be lynched, and he will

lose the game entirely

. If he unclaims, there is a chance (albeit a slim one) that he will be believed and can maneuver himself into a position to win the game. No unclaim = 100% guaranteed loss if countered. Unclaim = Slim possibility of survival/win.

SK would indeed be worried about being countered, the SK does have *some* incentive to unclaim.

I am not sure if I am wrong a bout this in general, but consider the following, specific to this game -- look at the SK NK choices. They were two of the biggest "no, don't lynch Guardian" supporters.

I don't think the SK NK choices made any sense for me to make.

In general, you may be right, that an SK has some incentive to not unclaim. Then again, the SK has very little incentive to fake claim doc in the first place. Doc is a great target for the mafia to NK, especially with such doubt. I did claim in a situation where I was about to be lynched, true, but in general, as you pointed out to Yos2, doc is a bad claim in the first place.

A Townie has very little incentive to unclaim. If he fucked up badly enough to fake-claim in the first place, he should maintain his current position, stand down and allow himself to be lynched. I could potentially see the desire not to out a second Doctor (which is your claimed rationale for unclaiming), but it still makes little sense to me. I say you grit your teeth and continue to try to draw a nightkill.

Hm. I understand you here, but I really didn't want this to go south any more than it was -- me unclaiming was being a team player. This is why I was so frustrated when MS claimed -- I think that a *single* doc claiming as a result of me fake claiming is not worth saving myself from lynch -- so I was not willing to let potentially *two* docs claim.


At least we can agree that I am very unlikely to be a mafioso, for this and other reasons. SO at this point, you have a vote on a lynch -1 wagon, on the faint hope that I am the one player of twenty who got the SK role PM, and in my first stint as SK decided to claim doc then unclaim.

Read the above again, and look at how silly it is going to sound if I'm lynched and then show up town.

Aside from a doc being outed, which I feel we can both agree shouldn't have happened, then

at worst

fake claiming does nothing for the town -- I don't get mislynched early, and instead get mislynched later.

At best, it prevents me being mislynched entirely.

I disagree with this in general, but I'm going to attack it in a different angle.
Again: Explain to me why people (town and scum) wouldn't start doing this all the time if that were true. You never answered my earlier question regarding this.

Well, in most setups, 2 doctors isn't likely, so one doctor *would* have a reason to counter claim, and outing a power role makes this move a bad one.

However, if *this* setup (or a similar one where the possibility of 2 or more doctors was said to be likely) were run again, I think it would be perfectly reasonable for someone to fake claim doc.

[Guardian]

Also, I think your "thought provoking questions" were not the "best" way to put the argument. I want you to reason out for yourself why you should have done what you did, and why it's a good idea in general to lie to the town.

In general it is a good idea to lie to the town if you can convince them, through lies, of something you know to be true.

In this case, I convinced you not to lynch me, as I *know* my alignment to be town and you don't.



Jack, huh? Wouldn't I wait and see, and then try and unclaim? I unclaimed because I *didn't* want to out doctors.

MS claiming does nothing to prove I am not a doctor. He was right that I was not a doctor, but that doesn't mean it was a good idea to claim.

[Yosarian2]

Guys, after I get mislynched, take a hard look at Yos2 and Glork. They both flip flopped very recently on my alignment, for very poor reasons.

For poor reasons?

I trusted you for a while because I believed your doc claim. When you admitted that was a lie, I stopped trusting you. If anything, the reasons I was trusting you in the first place were wrong, not the reasons I now don't trust you.

The only reason I STOPPED thinking you were scum was because I believed you. So, good job, you fooled me for a few days and thus postponed your lynch. Of course, postponing your lynch like that is only something worthwhile for you to do if you are scum.

[Yosarian2]

Also, I think your "thought provoking questions" were not the "best" way to put the argument. I want you to reason out for yourself why you should have done what you did, and why it's a good idea in general to lie to the town.

In general it is a good idea to lie to the town if you can convince them, through lies, of something you know to be true.

In this case, I convinced you not to lynch me, as I *know* my alignment to be town and you don't.

But again, you didn't "convince" us to do anything. You tricked us into not lyncing you for the short time period before your lie inevitably fell apart. And by claiming doc, you incresed the chances of the real doc and/or docs either claiming or otherwise giving themselves away.

[ManaSpryte]

Lets get this ball rolling. I feel like Guardian did his job for the mafia by getting me to claim. I know i'm the night kill if there isn't another doc. Wagon anyone?

[Guardian]

MS, me being in the mafia makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. The only possible anti-town thing I could be is an SK -- and I'm not an SK....


this is so unfortunate.

[Kinetic]

Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 6:51 pm Post subject: 2001
Mana claims doc.

Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 10:25 am Post subject: 2020
Guardian unclaims doc, claims vanilla

I'm sorry... it took me and Glork pretty much convincing you that A) Mana wasn't lying and most likely was doc. B) You two might want to consider a double protect and C) That having a second doc claim wasn't the end of the world

You waited an entire DAY before you unclaimed, until there was NO WAY we would believe you if a second doc claimed, and when there was the most suspician on you. You waited 19 posts before unclaiming, with every likeliness that there might have been a second doc ready to counterclaim and REALLY screw up the game. You tried as best you could to save yourself, and when you realized you were the one we wouldn't believe should another doc counter claim (and since you

knew

there are a decent chance there might be another doc) you finally relented. I was almost willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, but I can't.

I'll say I'm only 65-75% sure you might be SK, but the rest is straight policy lynching. You can't do that if you're vanilla and expect to live, especially the way you went about it. Let this be a lesson learned if you truly are vanilla, but honestly I don't think any of the town is going to feel sorry. You

might

have soaked up a mafia kill and got protected, but now you've distracted the town from scum hunting. You failed miserably as town, if you are town.

And you're only slightly true Guardian, there is still about a 10% chance you're mafia. I think it was BT or Glork that pointed out newbie scum might jump on a Sarc bussing if another scum was already there. The other possibility is YB is also scum and you could clear yourself by hammering Sarc. True not very possible, but they are still out there. If you ARE mafia, then we know a lot more than if you're SK, so I'd almost rather you come up that. If you come up SK, its not as good as if you were mafia, but its not bad by far. And if you are town, well then you failed. Failed in your duties as town.

I'm done with this day. Someone please hammer Guardian. There is no way we are going to find scum today unless Guardian is scum, so good job on giving the SK two kills and outing the doc.

[sarcasm]Very town play.[/sarcasm]

[Guardian]

Saying lynching me is enivetable even when most logic points otherwise is equally bad town play.


Lynching me because you are disappointed in my town play makes you just as responsible as I am.


You sound like "Ah, gosh Guardian, way to be bad at being town. You're *forcing* us to lynch you."

Lynching me is a choice, a bad one, and one YOU are making.



FTR, I didn't counter claim immediately as I wasn't sure I believed MS's claim since it made *such* little sense for him to claim....

[Guardian]

Policy lynching is such a bad idea, by the way. What does it accomplish? Nothing.

Especially

if you policy lynch me, I would do the exact same thing again, unless you

convinced

me it was bad play -- which at this point I am not at all convinced of -- all I am convinced of is that people are closed minded and quick to pull out the Lynch All Liars card.

[Kinetic]

Guardian: You say you did it to avoid being lynched.
You are going to be lynched.
Bad play.

Look at it this way Guardian, if a scum, at any time, could claim doc, then when countered, claim vanilla, and not get lynched, what scum would EVER not claim doc?

You are setting a BAD precedent if you are town. I'm not convinced you are, and IF you are you made a VERY bad play. I'm just telling you that now. The fact is you claimed a power role that you weren't, and now you are going to die because of it. I thought you were possibly SK BEFORE you unclaimed, you unclaiming did nothing to help your case, in fact, it hurt it immensely.

If you do it again, you will be lynched again and all it will have gained is your death. You distract the town from lynching scum if you town, and you are dead to your rights if you are scum. Don't you understand what you are doing? BEYOND the scope of this claim, NO ONE in this game is EVER going to believe you 100% no matter WHAT you claim in the future. ESPECIALLY if you come up town! At least, if you come up scum we can say, "Well hey, he was in a tough position and tried to last a little longer and maybe win." but if you're town, what we're going to think is, "He was a vanilla town, he risked all of the power roles, the other docs, and everything just so he could personally stay alive against the interests of the town."

I would hope you think LONG and HARD if you EVER pull a stunt like this again.

You are lynched as far as I'm concerned, we're just waiting for the inevitable. Yos was right, your lynch IS inevitable in this situation. Just like BT said, if you survive there will ALWAYS be questions of your alignment and it will be a mess if we wait. At least if we are wrong now we can recover. The LAST thing we need is to be at LYLO with you still alive.

[BillyTwilight]

Can we get a vote count, please?

Policy lynching is such a bad idea, by the way. What does it accomplish? Nothing.

Especially if you policy lynch me, I would do the exact same thing again, unless you convinced me it was bad play -- which at this point I am not at all convinced of -- all I am convinced of is that people are closed minded and quick to pull out the Lynch All Liars card. Smile

What does policy lynching accomplish? It teaches people not to do stupid things like this as town. You know why LaL is a

modus operandi

around here, Guardian? Because it works. Guardian, accept the fact that, if you are town, you made a DUMB MOVE. You want a worst case scenario? Here you go. Scum will not NK you at this point, more than likely. Suppose that we manage to lynch the remaining teamscum, but can't find the SK, and we get into a known LyLO situation with three players including you. What should they do then? Go after each other and ignore the person who was caught fake claiming 30 or 40 pages back? If you

are

town you can see how the SK would have a relatively easy time of forcing your lynch, and then the entire game would be lost due to YOUR LIE. Now, you may think this seems far-fetched, but it is EXACTLY the scenario that the SK and teamscum are playing for, if you are in fact town.

At this point, however, I don't think you are town. What it comes down to for me is that you obviously planned a doc claim from early game. I don't see this being from town psychology, especially from someone who has been lynched before as town and understands that the game goes on without them and they still have a good shot at the win. It reads more like someone who desperately wants to stay alive, like someone who knew he needed to stay alive in order to win. Regardless, your not going to be night killed at this point, and we have to make a decision about you sooner or later. I'd rather make it now while we are ahead and not in the endgame when the consequences could be far, far worse. Once we get a vote count I'll will hammer (if that is where we are in number of votes - too tired/lazy to go back to the last official VC and add things up).

Glork, I'll more carefully address your play/rebuttal to my post tomorrow, as well. The main reason I am not hammering now, if that's indeed where we stand.

[Kinetic]

He's at -1 BT. I put him at -2, Glork put him at -1.

[Glork]

Unvote

to give Billy a chance to respond and to prevent any premature hammers. I plan on re-voting Guardian once Billy has replied to me, though.

Guardian, I don't think anybody is simply policy-lynching. Your behavior has convinced me that you are very likely the SK. Period. I think Yos2 (and probably everybody else who is voting you) agrees that your play is indicative of being SCUM and not something that *ANY* decent Townie would do.

Also, I think your "thought provoking questions" were not the "best" way to put the argument. I want you to reason out for yourself why you should have done what you did, and why it's a good idea in general to lie to the town.

In general it is a good idea to lie to the town if you can convince them, through lies, of something you know to be true.

In this case, I convinced you not to lynch me, as I *know* my alignment to be town and you don't.

But again, you didn't "convince" us to do anything. You tricked us into not lyncing you for the short time period before your lie inevitably fell apart. And by claiming doc, you incresed the chances of the real doc and/or docs either claiming or otherwise giving themselves away.

QFT, QFT, QFT.

this is so unfortunate.

Yes, if you are town then it is unfortunate that you played such a self-centered game that you placed your own survival over that of every other player. But right now, your actions ring of being the SK. Period.

I did claim in a situation where I was about to be lynched, true, but in general, as you pointed out to Yos2, doc is a bad claim in the first place.

But again, making a 'bad' claim such as Doc is preferrable to getting lynched if you're an SK. Do you understand that an SK's top priority is survival? Do you understand why players who will do anything to survive (as you have done) will be seen as being a likely SK?

[LoudmouthLee]

Vote Count - Tomorrow Morning.

[Guardian]

Guardian: You say you did it to avoid being lynched.
You are going to be lynched.
Bad play.

I did it to delay being lynched. I delayed being lynched. Stop acting like a pompus ass,

for the record people, check out 24 mafia, where Kinetic admits that being a jerk to me is a scum tell for him

.

Look at it this way Guardian, if a scum, at any time, could claim doc, then when countered, claim vanilla, and not get lynched, what scum would EVER not claim doc?

In this setup? IMO scum *should* claim doc. I fail to see your point -- scum could do what I did as well. It doesn't mean I'm scum.

You are setting a BAD precedent if you are town.

I'm not very concerned with that. I'm concerned with this game, right here right now -- in which I am town.

I'm not convinced you are, and IF you are you made a VERY bad play. I'm just telling you that now. The fact is you claimed a power role that you weren't, and now you are going to die because of it.

Wait, wait, this is bullshit. Me dying now does not at ALL make this a bad play. If me dying now was all that happened, I would be incredibly pleased with the results -- I was around to help lynch Sarcastro -- something that wouldn't have happened otherwise. I kept myself alive long enough to help you guys lynch Sarc -- that was an incredibly good result.

I thought you were possibly SK BEFORE you unclaimed, you unclaiming did nothing to help your case, in fact, it hurt it immensely.

So refresh my memory, why exactly would I have unclaimed as an SK again? I'm not an idiot -- I didn't think everyone was going to accept instantly "oh, well he lied as town, and then breadcrumed as town planning to lie, obv obv town". I do contest that as an SK it would make more sense for me to not come out, also.

If you do it again, you will be lynched again and all it will have gained is your death.

If I do it again, and the same thing happens, I'll still have delayed a lynch of a pro-town player. There is no guarantee that in the future a town would be so adamant about LAL, and at the very least I'll have kept myself alive to try and help the town a bit longer.

You distract the town from lynching scum if you town, and you are dead to your rights if you are scum.

ME BEING LYNCHED EARLIER WOULD HAVE ALSO BEEN A DISTRACTION FROM LYNCHING SCUM. WTF KINETIC.

Don't you understand what you are doing? BEYOND the scope of this claim, NO ONE in this game is EVER going to believe you 100% no matter WHAT you claim in the future. ESPECIALLY if you come up town! At least, if you come up scum we can say, "Well hey, he was in a tough position and tried to last a little longer and maybe win." but if you're town, what we're going to think is, "He was a vanilla town, he risked all of the power roles, the other docs, and everything just so he could personally stay alive against the interests of the town."

You are talking about meta-gaming here -- something that I care very little about while I am in the game. However, if I come out of this with the meta that I am KNOWN to lie as town, and even lie as town MORE OFTEN than I do as scum, I don't see how that is at all a bad meta .

I would hope you think LONG and HARD if you EVER pull a stunt like this again.

I thought LONG and HARD about EVER doing this in the FIRST PLACE and since no one has CONVINCED me OTHERWISE I would do a STUNT like this AGAIN in the FUTURE.

You are lynched as far as I'm concerned, we're just waiting for the inevitable. Yos was right, your lynch IS inevitable in this situation.

Only if people like you are stubborn and unwilling to see the truth .

Just like BT said, if you survive there will ALWAYS be questions of your alignment and it will be a mess if we wait. At least if we are wrong now we can recover. The LAST thing we need is to be at LYLO with you still alive.

No -- the LAST thing we need is for me to be LYNCHED so a townie is DEAD and so we get to LYLO one day FASTER than we SHOULD have. .

[Guardian]

Policy lynching is such a bad idea, by the way. What does it accomplish? Nothing.

Especially if you policy lynch me, I would do the exact same thing again, unless you convinced me it was bad play -- which at this point I am not at all convinced of -- all I am convinced of is that people are closed minded and quick to pull out the Lynch All Liars card. Smile

What does policy lynching accomplish? It teaches people not to do stupid things like this as town.

No, no it doesn't. I would do this again,

especially

if I am policy lynched for it. Think of it as a policy play to get people to be more open minded .

You know why LaL is a

modus operandi

around here, Guardian? Because it works.

LAL is a bad metagame policy. Period.

Guardian, accept the fact that, if you are town, you made a DUMB MOVE.

NO! Do you not realize that I categorically deny that anyone has provided a convincing reason that for this setup and this game that I made a bad move? I think I made one hell of an innovative and GOOD move.

You want a worst case scenario? Here you go. Scum will not NK you at this point, more than likely. Suppose that we manage to lynch the remaining teamscum, but can't find the SK, and we get into a known LyLO situation with three players including you. What should they do then? Go after each other and ignore the person who was caught fake claiming 30 or 40 pages back? If you

are

town you can see how the SK would have a relatively easy time of forcing your lynch, and then the entire game would be lost due to YOUR LIE. Now, you may think this seems far-fetched, but it is EXACTLY the scenario that the SK and teamscum are playing for, if you are in fact town.

Like I just said to Kinetic -- this is

exactly the same

as if you mislynch me right now. If you lynch me now, that is the same lost lynch as if you let me sit until endgame and then I'm lynched -- except if you DON'T mislynch me now, we have some days to find the SK, so I

wouldn't

get mislynched at endgame.

At this point, however, I don't think you are town. What it comes down to for me is that you obviously planned a doc claim from early game. I don't see this being from town psychology, especially from someone who has been lynched before as town and understands that the game goes on without them and they still have a good shot at the win.

I would hope you don't think I'm town if you're voting me.

And I have never come to this understanding, BT, because I've never won as town and in... I'd say 5/6 games I was town in, me being lynched

directly

lost the game for the town. So if I've developed a survival mentality, there is a reason for that.

It reads more like someone who desperately wants to stay alive, like someone who knew he needed to stay alive in order to win.

see above.

Regardless, your not going to be night killed at this point, and we have to make a decision about you sooner or later. I'd rather make it now while we are ahead and not in the endgame when the consequences could be far, far worse.

This is a false dilemma -- making a decision about me in endgame would be just as bad as making a decision about me now -- and I'm sure that you concede that I have a vested interest in helping find scum, and especially the SK, now.

Lynching me to prevent a me-at-endgame scenario is foolish.

[Guardian]

Unvote

to give Billy a chance to respond and to prevent any premature hammers. I plan on re-voting Guardian once Billy has replied to me, though.

Change your plans .

Guardian, I don't think anybody is simply policy-lynching.

I think both Kinetic and BT explicitly claimed that they are at least in part policy lynching.

Your behavior has convinced me that you are very likely the SK. Period. I think Yos2 (and probably everybody else who is voting you) agrees that your play is indicative of being SCUM and not something that *ANY* decent Townie would do.

I really don't care if thinking I'm town means you assume I am a bad townie. Go ahead. Because I am town, and a me-lynch is a mislynch.

Also, I think your "thought provoking questions" were not the "best" way to put the argument. I want you to reason out for yourself why you should have done what you did, and why it's a good idea in general to lie to the town.

In general it is a good idea to lie to the town if you can convince them, through lies, of something you know to be true.

In this case, I convinced you not to lynch me, as I *know* my alignment to be town and you don't.

But again, you didn't "convince" us to do anything. You tricked us into not lyncing you for the short time period before your lie inevitably fell apart. And by claiming doc, you incresed the chances of the real doc and/or docs either claiming or otherwise giving themselves away.

QFT, QFT, QFT.

If nothing else, I prevented a me-mislynch and gave us an opportunity to lynch scum -- which we capatalized on.

I really do not care for being told how bad a play this and how I hurt the town is when for all intents and purposes no other doc should have claimed, and when we lynched scum instead of lynching me as a direct result of my action.

this is so unfortunate.

Yes, if you are town then it is unfortunate that you played such a self-centered game that you placed your own survival over that of every other player. But right now, your actions ring of being the SK. Period.

I did claim in a situation where I was about to be lynched, true, but in general, as you pointed out to Yos2, doc is a bad claim in the first place.

But again, making a 'bad' claim such as Doc is preferrable to getting lynched if you're an SK. Do you understand that an SK's top priority is survival?

Yeah -- and me unclaiming obviously wasn't going to be pro-me surviving. I unclaimed as not to expose a second doc (a second doc who I am at this point pretty sure I know who is, btw).

Do you understand why players who will do anything to survive (as you have done) will be seen as being a likely SK?

I understand that. Do you understand my reasons for doing it, how it helped the town, how it should have had very little chance of hurting the town, and how I'm NOT scum?

[Kinetic]

Guardian: You say you did it to avoid being lynched.
You are going to be lynched.
Bad play.

I did it to delay being lynched. I delayed being lynched. Stop acting like a pompus ass,

for the record people, check out 24 mafia, where Kinetic admits that being a jerk to me is a scum tell for him

.

That was also my first game on Mafiascum Guardian. I said I was overly a jerk to you the entire game. Basically I saw you as my pit bull target and the entire game I went after you. This is not the same. I came into the game thinking you were the doctor but possibly the SK.

After you unclaimed, I still wasn't completely sure about lynching you. It wasn't until everything began falling into place that I realized how bad what you did really was. Yos2 and others who have more experience than I do realized it right away, and once I did the math I agreed.

I'm not trying to be pompus or an ass to you. I'm trying to show you the error of your ways and hoping you won't do it again.

Look at it this way Guardian, if a scum, at any time, could claim doc, then when countered, claim vanilla, and not get lynched, what scum would EVER not claim doc?

In this setup? IMO scum *should* claim doc. I fail to see your point -- scum could do what I did as well. It doesn't mean I'm scum.

But it DOES mean that you are very likely scum, by your own admission here... I don't understand, are you telling me you

wouldn't

be highly suspicious of someone who did this? Please.

You are setting a BAD precedent if you are town.

I'm not very concerned with that. I'm concerned with this game, right here right now -- in which I am town.

Well you should be concerned about your play right here and right now. Its bad, you're going to get lynched. As far as I'm concerned is already done, I'm just trying to tell you its not a smart idea to do it again (which you even admitted you would do).

I'm not convinced you are, and IF you are you made a VERY bad play. I'm just telling you that now. The fact is you claimed a power role that you weren't, and now you are going to die because of it.

Wait, wait, this is bullshit. Me dying now does not at ALL make this a bad play. If me dying now was all that happened, I would be incredibly pleased with the results -- I was around to help lynch Sarcastro -- something that wouldn't have happened otherwise. I kept myself alive long enough to help you guys lynch Sarc -- that was an incredibly good result.

Lucky, at best. But what if Sarc was the doc? What if sarc was the last cop? What if Sarc was the vig who kept getting his shots blocked by the real doc? What if Sarc was also town? What if Sarc was a fish and swam around doing nothing.

Yes, you helped, and I think the whole town is grateful, but the truth is it doesn't make you 100% confirmed town. And the fact that keeping you around is only going to leave questions that can only be answered by your death is unacceptable. If you are vanilla town then this isn't the worst thing that could happen to you, and with you gone the town actually has a better chance of winning. I'm sorry, you are a brick and the town needs to throw off some excess weight on the boat.

I thought you were possibly SK BEFORE you unclaimed, you unclaiming did nothing to help your case, in fact, it hurt it immensely.

So refresh my memory, why exactly would I have unclaimed as an SK again? I'm not an idiot -- I didn't think everyone was going to accept instantly "oh, well he lied as town, and then breadcrumed as town planning to lie, obv obv town". I do contest that as an SK it would make more sense for me to not come out, also.

SK has to play the long game. Coming out any later than you did would have ensured your lynch beyond a shadow of a doubt if another doc counter-claimed you. As it is the one that did pretty much sealed your fate. You played the whole game intending to do this if you got caught. I'm just glad the town tried to lynch you early and forced you to do so now instead of near mid or late game. Such a claim could have been DISASTER!

If you do it again, you will be lynched again and all it will have gained is your death.

If I do it again, and the same thing happens, I'll still have delayed a lynch of a pro-town player. There is no guarantee that in the future a town would be so adamant about LAL, and at the very least I'll have kept myself alive to try and help the town a bit longer.

Wrong. LAL is usually from what I've seen only invoked in very important situations. Fake claiming is one of the universally accepted reasons. No reason for it.

You distract the town from lynching scum if you town, and you are dead to your rights if you are scum.

ME BEING LYNCHED EARLIER WOULD HAVE ALSO BEEN A DISTRACTION FROM LYNCHING SCUM. WTF KINETIC.

Something I learned the first time I was lynched as town: It is not our job to make you not look scummy. If the town felt you were scummy enough to try and lynch you the first time around and you would have been lynched had you claimed vanilla then, then what makes you think that when you unclaim you'll be safe?

No, what you did is forced one of the docs to put them self, and delayed a lynch that should have happened yesterday. Yes, the town got lucky lynching Sarc, and that helps, but you realize if Sarc was town MS most likely would have claimed still today. Then what would have happened? Even IF the mafia didn't NK the SK would have gotten 2 kills for the price of 1, the mafia would have found the doc, you would be dead (scum or not) and the town would be facing 3 scum, a SK, and only 7 townies going into day 4 (assuming you are town. That is an unacceptable risk you took with the town. The ends do not justify the means.

Don't you understand what you are doing? BEYOND the scope of this claim, NO ONE in this game is EVER going to believe you 100% no matter WHAT you claim in the future. ESPECIALLY if you come up town! At least, if you come up scum we can say, "Well hey, he was in a tough position and tried to last a little longer and maybe win." but if you're town, what we're going to think is, "He was a vanilla town, he risked all of the power roles, the other docs, and everything just so he could personally stay alive against the interests of the town."

You are talking about meta-gaming here -- something that I care very little about while I am in the game. However, if I come out of this with the meta that I am KNOWN to lie as town, and even lie as town MORE OFTEN than I do as scum, I don't see how that is at all a bad meta .

*points up* You accuse me with a meta that doesn't even work here, then say you don't agree with meta play, and then agree that lying through your teeth as town is good play?

I really hope you enjoy being lynched, because I'm strongly going to encourage a "Lynch Guardian" meta since you cannot be trusted at all.

I would hope you think LONG and HARD if you EVER pull a stunt like this again.

I thought LONG and HARD about EVER doing this in the FIRST PLACE and since no one has CONVINCED me OTHERWISE I would do a STUNT like this AGAIN in the FUTURE.

And you will be lynched again, and again, and again. You hurt the town and yet don't even take responsibility. All you're doing is convincing me now that you're squirming scum.

You are lynched as far as I'm concerned, we're just waiting for the inevitable. Yos was right, your lynch IS inevitable in this situation.

Only if people like you are stubborn and unwilling to see the truth .

How can we see the truth when you keep lying and changing the "truth". Pick a "truth" and stick to it.

Just like BT said, if you survive there will ALWAYS be questions of your alignment and it will be a mess if we wait. At least if we are wrong now we can recover. The LAST thing we need is to be at LYLO with you still alive.

No -- the LAST thing we need is for me to be LYNCHED so a townie is DEAD and so we get to LYLO one day FASTER than we SHOULD have. .

You should have thought about that before you fake claimed. right now over half the town is convinced that you are the SK, and even if the mafia is on this wagon and doesn't care if you're SK or Townie, it is your fault this happened.

[Kinetic]

Guardian, I don't think anybody is simply policy-lynching.

I think both Kinetic and BT explicitly claimed that they are at least in part policy lynching.

I try not to make it a habit to reply to a post you directed at someone else, but since you mentioned me, I feel I have to speak up here. Glork said he doesn't think anyone is simply policy lynching. Simply, in this contexts, means only, or that is their only intention. No, in fact you even said that we are not doing that. I agree that the fact that it enforces a smart policy is encouraging, it is not the only reason I am voting for you. I laid out my entire reasons, even after you called me scum for not having a reason. I have ample reason to believe you're SK, and I think you are the right lynch for today.

[Kinetic]

EBWOP: The two top lines were said by Guardian, sorry for tag mishap.

[Shteven]

Even then, how do you rationalize my claiming, then unclaiming, and NKing MoS and AE -- both of them were very opposed to lynching me, as an SK you most definitely want to keep your buddies around.

WIFOM; as an SK really all you need it is to kill everyone. Who dies isn't that important; if you kill all of your enemies, it's evidence that can be used against you. I've never been the SK, but if I was, I really think I'd just /roll for my targets.

As far as reclaiming townie not proving you're scum - that's true. But lying is anti-town, and I think it should be reacted to as such. I can identify with the desire to personally live, but in the end, it's just not helpful. Even though I believe you thought it was safe, it isn't truly safe, and did out another doctor.

The breadcrumbing really nails your case shut, by the way. Feeling pressured and desperate as a townie and claiming doc at the last second is a mistake; planning a power role claim for self-preservation from day 1 is highly suggestive of being the SK.

Glork:

Yes, I am convinced that Sarc was doomed to a lynch. The reasons for that should be obvious enough, but I'm going to be stubborn and refuse to go through them in detail right now.

Suffice to say that the Mafia probably already knows what I'm talking about.

If the mafia already knows, how about you tell the rest of us town?

General: I agree with Kinetic; guardian's about a 60% chance of SK, low chance of mafia, and even if he's town, the information will be useful. It's not a policy lynch, but it can fall back on policy as an insurance plan. That doesn't change that he's highly likely to be anti-town.

[Shteven]

Suffice to say that the Mafia probably already knows what I'm talking about.

If the mafia already knows, how about you tell the rest of us town?

Btw, does the mafia know because you PM'ed them last night with the reason why you wanted to bus sarc if he got any attention? You know, just saying...

Buried somewhere in the last few pages guardian had a decent point about glork. I'd rather the SK/mafia fight each other at night with cross kills, but lynching each other doesn't hurt much either.

[Guardian]

Guardian: You say you did it to avoid being lynched.
You are going to be lynched.
Bad play.

I did it to delay being lynched. I delayed being lynched. Stop acting like a pompus ass,

for the record people, check out 24 mafia, where Kinetic admits that being a jerk to me is a scum tell for him

.

That was also my first game on Mafiascum Guardian. I said I was overly a jerk to you the entire game. Basically I saw you as my pit bull target and the entire game I went after you. This is not the same. I came into the game thinking you were the doctor but possibly the SK.

Wait no, you came into the game, *joke* voted me, and then said I was your main target the rest of the game. This is categorically not true.

After you unclaimed, I still wasn't completely sure about lynching you. It wasn't until everything began falling into place that I realized how bad what you did really was. Yos2 and others who have more experience than I do realized it right away, and once I did the math I agreed.

I'm not trying to be pompus or an ass to you. I'm trying to show you the error of your ways and hoping you won't do it again.

Unlucky.

Look at it this way Guardian, if a scum, at any time, could claim doc, then when countered, claim vanilla, and not get lynched, what scum would EVER not claim doc?

In this setup? IMO scum *should* claim doc. I fail to see your point -- scum could do what I did as well. It doesn't mean I'm scum.

But it DOES mean that you are very likely scum, by your own admission here... I don't understand, are you telling me you

wouldn't

be highly suspicious of someone who did this? Please.

I would at first, of course. But I think I've explained myself well, and I thought the claim was remarkably innovative. I would have found them suspicious but backed down, if exactly the same thing I did had happened but I was in someone else's shoes.

You are setting a BAD precedent if you are town.

I'm not very concerned with that. I'm concerned with this game, right here right now -- in which I am town.

Well you should be concerned about your play right here and right now. Its bad, you're going to get lynched.

I think I've made it more than obvious that I disagree with this, despite numerous assertions to the contrary.

As far as I'm concerned is already done, I'm just trying to tell you its not a smart idea to do it again (which you even admitted you would do).

If you are trying to tell me it is not a smart idea to do it again (as town) aren't you assuming I am town.

FOS: Kinetic

. Hell why not:

unvote vote: Kinetic

Look at the above. This is not some idiot rambling, I am a sane and very successfully deductive person. Kinetic just assumed that I was town -- meaning he = scum.

I'm not convinced you are, and IF you are you made a VERY bad play. I'm just telling you that now. The fact is you claimed a power role that you weren't, and now you are going to die because of it.

Wait, wait, this is bullshit. Me dying now does not at ALL make this a bad play. If me dying now was all that happened, I would be incredibly pleased with the results -- I was around to help lynch Sarcastro -- something that wouldn't have happened otherwise. I kept myself alive long enough to help you guys lynch Sarc -- that was an incredibly good result.

Lucky, at best. But what if Sarc was the doc? What if sarc was the last cop? What if Sarc was the vig who kept getting his shots blocked by the real doc? What if Sarc was also town? What if Sarc was a fish and swam around doing nothing.

What if he wasn't, and I considered this, and I was right? What if Sarc was here to claim as normal? What if people didn't come up with whatever argument possible to assert that lying as town is bad play?

Yes, you helped, and I think the whole town is grateful, but the truth is it doesn't make you 100% confirmed town.

True -- it also doesn't make me a 100% inevitable lynch candidate .

And the fact that keeping you around is only going to leave questions that can only be answered by your death is unacceptable.

Why? If we get rid of the SK, mose of the questions about me disappear.

If you are vanilla town then this isn't the worst thing that could happen to you, and with you gone the town actually has a better chance of winning.

I fundamentally disagree with that -- mislynching someone decreases the town's chance of winning, period.

I'm sorry, you are a brick and the town needs to throw off some excess weight on the boat.

WTF? Again you assume I'm town, but keep your vote on my "inevitable" lynch.

I thought you were possibly SK BEFORE you unclaimed, you unclaiming did nothing to help your case, in fact, it hurt it immensely.

So refresh my memory, why exactly would I have unclaimed as an SK again? I'm not an idiot -- I didn't think everyone was going to accept instantly "oh, well he lied as town, and then breadcrumed as town planning to lie, obv obv town". I do contest that as an SK it would make more sense for me to not come out, also.

SK has to play the long game. Coming out any later than you did would have ensured your lynch beyond a shadow of a doubt if another doc counter-claimed you. As it is the one that did pretty much sealed your fate.

............ Coming out now would not have been a good SK move, imo. But whatever, that's debatable, and you aren't being open minded at all.

You played the whole game intending to do this if you got

caught

almost mislynched

.

Fixed.

I'm just glad the town tried to lynch you early and forced you to do so now instead of near mid or late game. Such a claim could have been DISASTER!

/disagree.

If you do it again, you will be lynched again and all it will have gained is your death.

If I do it again, and the same thing happens, I'll still have delayed a lynch of a pro-town player. There is no guarantee that in the future a town would be so adamant about LAL, and at the very least I'll have kept myself alive to try and help the town a bit longer.

Wrong. LAL is usually from what I've seen only invoked in very important situations. Fake claiming is one of the universally accepted reasons. No reason for it.

No reason for it to be enforced as a metagame policy, I agree. .

You distract the town from lynching scum if you town, and you are dead to your rights if you are scum.

ME BEING LYNCHED EARLIER WOULD HAVE ALSO BEEN A DISTRACTION FROM LYNCHING SCUM. WTF KINETIC.

Something I learned the first time I was lynched as town: It is not our job to make you not look scummy.

When have I ever implied it was?

If the town felt you were scummy enough to try and lynch you the first time around and you would have been lynched had you claimed vanilla then, then what makes you think that when you unclaim you'll be safe?

Maybe me hammering scum? Maybe me unclaiming in and of itself, seeing as that is a very anti-scum move (although to be fair, like I said I am fairly certain I know the other doc).

No, what you did is forced one of the docs to put them self

Not true at all. I was so confused and angry, as I don't see at all why a doc should have felt compelled to claim.

and delayed a lynch that should have happened yesterday. Yes, the town got lucky lynching Sarc, and that helps, but you realize if Sarc was town MS most likely would have claimed still today. Then what would have happened? Even IF the mafia didn't NK the SK would have gotten 2 kills for the price of 1, the mafia would have found the doc, you would be dead (scum or not) and the town would be facing 3 scum, a SK, and only 7 townies going into day 4 (assuming you are town. That is an unacceptable risk you took with the town. The ends do not justify the means.

I think it was a good play. You do not. This isn't convincing me. Deal.

Don't you understand what you are doing? BEYOND the scope of this claim, NO ONE in this game is EVER going to believe you 100% no matter WHAT you claim in the future. ESPECIALLY if you come up town! At least, if you come up scum we can say, "Well hey, he was in a tough position and tried to last a little longer and maybe win." but if you're town, what we're going to think is, "He was a vanilla town, he risked all of the power roles, the other docs, and everything just so he could personally stay alive against the interests of the town."

You are talking about meta-gaming here -- something that I care very little about while I am in the game. However, if I come out of this with the meta that I am KNOWN to lie as town, and even lie as town MORE OFTEN than I do as scum, I don't see how that is at all a bad meta .

*points up* You accuse me with a meta that doesn't even work here, then say you don't agree with meta play

I don't agree with playing in a game to improve meta-play. That doesn't mean I don't agree with employing meta.

, and then agree that lying through your teeth as town is good play?

NO -- I agree that it would be interesting and beneficial to me if I had a meta that lying through my teeth was not a scum tell.

I really hope you enjoy being lynched, because I'm strongly going to encourage a "Lynch Guardian" meta since you cannot be trusted at all.

Then I really hope you enjoy mislynching me time and time again and losing games. Really. I hope this.

I would hope you think LONG and HARD if you EVER pull a stunt like this again.

I thought LONG and HARD about EVER doing this in the FIRST PLACE and since no one has CONVINCED me OTHERWISE I would do a STUNT like this AGAIN in the FUTURE.

And you will be lynched again, and again, and again. You hurt the town and yet don't even take responsibility.

Nope -- no one has convinced me my play was bad. I have been very convinced that LAL is a nice warm blanket for people to cling to, but that's about all really.

All you're doing is convincing me now that you're squirming scum.

Wait -- first I don't take responsibility as town, now I'm squirming scum? Make up your mind.

You are lynched as far as I'm concerned, we're just waiting for the inevitable. Yos was right, your lynch IS inevitable in this situation.

Only if people like you are stubborn and unwilling to see the truth .

How can we see the truth when you keep lying and changing the "truth". Pick a "truth" and stick to it.

I am town. That's the truth and I've stuck to that throughout.

You keep flip flopping on lecturing me-town and being "sure" of the "inevitable" lynch of me scum. Pick a lie and stick to it .

Just like BT said, if you survive there will ALWAYS be questions of your alignment and it will be a mess if we wait. At least if we are wrong now we can recover. The LAST thing we need is to be at LYLO with you still alive.

No -- the LAST thing we need is for me to be LYNCHED so a townie is DEAD and so we get to LYLO one day FASTER than we SHOULD have. .

You should have thought about that before you fake claimed. right now over half the town is convinced that you are the SK, and even if the mafia is on this wagon and doesn't care if you're SK or Townie, it is your fault this happened.

It is also your fault for mislynching me. [sarcasm]I like how you are lecturing me about taking responsibility, and then actively taking part in my mislynch and abdicating all responsibility for said action[/sarcasm]


Kinetic, you are being one hell of a jerk, or you're scum.

Not that I'm one to talk -- I again realize how much of an ass I was to MS, sorry dude.

Confirm vote: Kinetic

.

Kinetic, HH, Yos2, Glork. TCS and Shteven outside shots.

That's the play^.

[Kinetic]

You keep mixing two separate, almost mutually exclusive things I'm trying to get across to you.

First: I am explaining why I am voting for you. Trying to explain to you, completely and in detail the error of your ways. This is more than a lot of people are doing, and don't think that hasn't escaped my notice. I could have just said "LAL die die die" and left it at that, and guess what, that would have worked and there are few people that would bat an eye at that.

This is because I really do generally like you as a person, I am trying to help you improve your play as a whole. This isn't going to be your game. I really hope you are town, so that everything you did wasn't for naught and you can still win the game, but if you arn't I'm sorry. And the fact is that you are 65-75% likely to be the SK, and 5-10% likely to be mafia at this point.

Are you telling me you wouldn't lynch someone you had VERY good reason to believe is very likely to be a SK, who lied to the town to save their ass, and caused (intentionally or not) a doctor to counter claim them, you would NOT lynch them? Especially when even if you are wrong you have at the least two days to recover from the mislynch, should it be so?

Let me make it even easier for you. There is only a 50% chance you're scum and we are in the same position now (2 mafia, 1 sk, 10 pro-town remaining). From what I have seen from you in other games, you know statistics. This is a good bet, and a good play.

If you say you wouldn't, well I call bullshit. I wouldn't say I know you VERY well, but I know you well enough that if the situation was reversed you would tell me the same thing.

Second: I am trying to get across to you, in the approx. 25% chance you are not scum, what a bad play you made as town.

That is all.

I'm not going to be angry at your OMGUS vote Guardian, but I still would like it if you at least understood the position you have put us in. Its not going to save you, but it would make me feel better. We'll talk more in post game, I'm sure this will be a hot topic.