Newbie 442 - Game Over

[Peter Venkman]

It is painfully obvious that White is scum.

Vote White

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Haha, Is it okay if I call you honkey the rest of the game?

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

PETERS racism comment*

If you're talking to me....absolutely no.

How you extrapolated a racist comment from my random vote is puzzling. I assumed you meant it as a joke... so I responded accordingly.

I'm sorry. I won't call you honkey. I figured if you could teasingly toss out the racist accusation, I could teasingly retort. You don't appear to have a sense of humor that isn't a derivative of cartoon sitcoms. I haven't played with you before, so forgive me for not knowing that in advance.

If you didn't have Snix voting for you I would. You seem weird and are making strange deductions. But i'm not going to put you at -2 this early. Let's hear what the ICs make of you.

Snix isn't voting for me now. I guess you are free to do as you please.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

if you put someone at two votes, and the mafia want to speedlynch, they have to give away both of their members.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

@IH, after I posted I realized that there would be some confusion... I was trying to say that you were one of the ICs.

However, I won't use any nicknames. They appear to cause trouble.
---

@White> I really don't like how you came off as joking with your racist comment, than when I joked back you attacked me for acting weird and making strange deductions. Your whole "I'd vote on you, but... that's putting somone at -2, and that is bad even though IH just said it isn't..." rubbed me the wrong way.

If you sincerely feel my behavior has been scummy I would encourage you to vote. If you are town, you shouldn't worry about posturing. The only tool you have to find scum is your vote, use it to the fullest. I find your hesitance confusing.

My initial random vote was for you, but now I'd like to reconfirm that random vote as a serious vote.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

...I would like to further add that I don't understand the attacks on IH.

This is a newbie game. The ICs have the

responsibility

to teach newer players some of the subtle points of mafia scum. Attacking an IC for performing the task

he is meant to do

isn't in the spirit of newbie games.

There is a difference between an IC offering advice and a player who is trying to manipulate the game with theory discussion. These newbie games are an excellent opportunity to learn how to differentiate the two.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Unvote

I would suggest lynching LML and seeing how he turns up because i'm innocent.

Please understand that from the perspective of the rest of the town this is a terrible argument. You could both be town, and lynching both of you would end this game. LML is not a candidate for lynch

just

because he attacks you, and lynching LML gives us

no information about your role

.

OMGUS = "Oh My God, YOU SUCK!"

Often times, when a player is being attacked he immediately retaliates on the poster making the accusations. In the future, your defense will sound more sincere if you address the specific points and ignore the personality of the person making them.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

@White>

I unvoted you because this is an information game. Even in the best case scenario that you are scum, your lynch doesn't put us in a good position for Day 2. I require a few things before I'm willing to be part of a player's lynch:

(in order of importance)
1) Several solid logical arguments that a player is scum.
2) Every player in the game has offered his opinion of the lynch.
3) The player role claims.
4) Consider any counter-claims

As you can see, you barely even qualify for point one.

----

So, when I put my "serious" vote on you I wasn't voting to lynch. What was I doing? Voting to

pressure

. I believe that the vote is the only tool town has to find scum. A vote says to another player "You are now required to defend yourself against the points I have made." Usually, the other player responds in a way that alleviates or confirms the initial suspicion.

In your case, you confirmed my initial suspicion. You never did address why my two posts prior to your "weird and strange" accusations were in fact weird and strange. I felt it odd that you were attacking the quality my character based on nothing.

You are correct that these are not traditional "attacks" in the mafia-scum sense. You did not accuse me of being scum. However, you did attack me in a subtle way that was meant to undermine the validity of my posts. By reinforcing "Peter Venkman makes strange and weird arguments" you attempt to discredit me.

I see no reason why a

town

player would attempt to discredit another player based on so little. Perhaps you should now explain.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

It really isnt' obvious to me where such a deduction would be made, so

that made me think you somehow saw something in me

or...I don't really know.

I was thinking there was a catalyst for such a belief

and I wasn't aware of it which made me suspicious. I see now that it must have been an irrelevant joke.

Is this your first game? It is pretty common knowledge that Day One starts off with random votes. Why you came to the conclusion that I have a deeper reason is perplexing.

Haha, Is it okay if I call you honkey the rest of the game?

This I hit me blindside. You seemed to add nothing of value to the conversation and weren't direct on who you were asking the question to. I didn't see the relevence nor did I see where you would think anyone would

want

to be called "Honkey".

But I believed you had a reason (that I didn't know) which again led me to think you knew something or saw something

Again... why would you arrive at that conclusion? At that point I'd contributed a random vote and a poorly received joke. Your defensiveness doesn't make sense.

When I said you made a racist comment, I was playing off of Snix's joke that you assumed I was Mafia because my skin was white because my name was White(right? Still slightly confused on it).

This... is... an amazing leap in logic.

Well,

I was trying to discredit your views

as I expected some form of retaliation and I wanted to rest of the town to not believe whatever you said

In a single word: WOW!.

Less than a page into Day One you assume I have determine your role by my amazing powers of deduction. Faced with such a powerful opponent you feel you must discredit me.

That is the greatest compliment anyone has ever given me. Thank you.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

@White>

Lets see if I can break this down easily.

1) As town, the only way we can win is to hunt scum. Part of hunting scum is making accusations.

2) When an accusation is made, the receiving player feels as if he is being "aggressively" attacked.

Thus, someone is bound to perceive an action as "aggressive." Yet, by the nature of this game, players

HAVE

to play that way. Remember how incredibly defensive you got from the very first post in this game?

---

I also find it very interesting that you insist upon evidence. Twice now you've asked for specific reasons why we find your behavior so scummy. Yet... nearly every post has that information.

Day One is mostly hunches and reading other players.

So far you have claimed to be "calm, patient, and non-agressive." You appear to be hot tempered, vote quickly as a reaction, and content to press other players. While none of those traits are necessarily scummy, the disconnect between how you want us to perceive you and your actions is unsettling.

You have given me reason to doubt your words.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

@White>

In a single quote I think I can summarize my feelings on you.

I feel as though everyone is really on edge with me and if I make one more mistake i'll be lynched.

This has been your attitude since I put my first random vote on you. Instantly you freaked out and demand everyone justify their suspicion.

Isn't the goal to be able to walk the line of too defensive and not defensive at all? If someone isnt' defensive at all isn't that scummy because they assume they're safe because they've got a scum buddy that won't vote them?

I don't think town players worry about "walking the line." Posting with sincerity will alleviate all those problems. You've already demonstrated a willingness to undermine another player. I perceived your defense as: "my role is town and therefor I am the arbitrator of truth. An attack on me means the aggressor is a liar."

---

Your monologuing has become a distraction to actually hunting scum. I grow weary of reading it and my suspicion of you grows deeper. There are other players I would like to question, yet the topic of discussion cannot seem to move away from you.

You don't have to respond to every word from every player. Pick the few pieces you feel are important and respond only to those. In fact, you do not have to respond to this post at all, I will assume you have read it.

Finally, if you are interesting in hunting scum, mount an argument that is more than a smear campaign.

Massive FoS White

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Hm, well alright. I'd like to thank mainly Peter and IH for a lot of help in improving my playstyle. Now i'm going to try and start anew and go from there.

Thank you. While my tone may have sounded harsh, I do admire your devotion to this game.

I don't agree with the majority of your analysis. However, you do sound like you are now sincerely hunting scum. I might suggest you try not to read everything so

literally

.

..this is also something that a scum in another game of mine did. Vote for the Mod...

Something that also sticks out to me is that that's his/her only post on this thread total. It's been over 65 hours since they've posted and i'd personally like an explaination.

Cheeky does need a prod, although I don't think your meta-gaming is giving you good returns.

Better?

Much, thanks for digging in and putting out some legitimate challenges. I'll step aside here and let the posters you directly asked questions respond.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

If I'm scum, I don't WANT you to figure it all out.

This has alerted my sensibilities.

IH, surely you can realize how playing the role of "useful adviser" is a great scum cover.

I appreciate your involvement in this game, and I appreciate the knowledge you have shared. However, don't assume that because you are talking game theory it exempts you from suspicion.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

@Moderator>

Please prod/replace Cheeky. The game is still young and a replacement can catch up quickly.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Good, glad I have alerted you. I know I'm not exempt from suspicion, BUT using "Hey he's helpful, he could be scum!" is wifom. Of course it doesn't clear me.
...
If you don't think it is a null tell, feel free to go over my other newbie games where I have done this regardless of alignment

Please read Post 24 for my specific thoughts.

While I understand your helpful position, I also am very aware of the ability to hide behind it.

Offering "advice" is a good way to participate in the game without committing to scum hunting. It pads your post count and makes you appear active in the game. I find it interesting that you insist the "adviser" role is a null tell.

IGMEOY

IH

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

If my only posts were discussing the merits of delicious cheeseburgers would you find that suspicious?

Discussing game theory is a great way to

appear

involved in the game while avoiding discussing relevant information specific to the game.

I don't play this game looking for "scum tells." Every bit of information gathered from a player is a thread that builds the tapestry of his character. When playing in this way there are no "null tells" because each bit of information works in conjunction to the next. In this fashion I assemble an opinion regarding each player.

Because of my playstyle your "null tell" comment keeps rubbing me raw.

All

information is useful, yet you keep telling me that it isn't.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Red =

Peter Venkman.

Untrue. It is just simply untrue that every peice of information tells the alignment of a player.

You misunderstand. Every post builds my understanding of you as a player. While that information might not be pertinent to alignment, it preps me for later. For example, I know White isn't to be trusted with his admitted attempts to undermine players. While he may actively be hunting scum I cannot know if his motives are based on his perception of scum or an attempt to discredit someone simply because he disagrees with them. I think that is very important information, even if it isn't relevant to his role.

Like my newbie intro post. I make a carbon copy of that post in every newbie game. Therefore it indicates NOTHING of alignment.

That post might indicate nothing, however, this discussion is illuminating. I want to hear you shoot from the hip, not cut and paste your posts from other games

Also you cannot say I have just been discussing game theory,

(I have not)

going over my posts. I have determined that white is closer to being town. Also most of my posts have applied the game theory, not just discussed it I believe.

There is such a thing as a null tell my friend that indicates nothing.

I don't play looking for "scum tells." In fact, I think you play more like me than you are willing to admit. It is rare to find a useful "scum tell." Rather, you learn the nuances of a player than judge his actions based on those nuances. I see you doing it already with people you are familiar with.

For your statement to be correct we'd have to take EVERY comment, EVERY piece of information as a factor towards someone's alignment.

I try to. I find it rare that scum players do something so stupid that a single post in isolation is an indicator of their alignment.

While this sounds nice, it is unrealistic. It's like newbies following someone. It is just as likely to be done from newbie town as newbie scum.

What works for you and what works for me are different. I'll concede that my method might not be for everyone. If you really are interested in teaching newbies you might consider letting them hear another playstyle.

Also you get into some extreme wifom situations playing like that.

I think

slight FoS:Peter

[Peter Venkman]

What is prod?

Surely you have more questions of this game?

By the rules you agreed to, being gone for more than 48 hours requires notifying Meme. A prod is a way of notifying you that you have failed to meet the minimal requirements of this game. It is a polite warning.

Now that we have your attention, would you like to share your thoughts so far?

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

IH, what do you think of LML's kind proposal to me?

Why do you keep deferring to IH?

There is another IC, you appear to just not like him. At this point in the game, I find it puzzling that you accept one's word at face value and reject the other's.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Apergers is a mental condition that makes it hard for the owner of the mind to see things other than black and white, all or nothing. I have it and it also means we fight for what we believe in very hard and tend to be very logical.

LML, I was simply curious, if I didn't ask i'd never know man.

Do you suffer from asshole-itis?

What? If I didn't ask, I'd never know! Man, you sure are sensitive if you take that as an insult.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Because he's the other most experienced player and I think he'd know more about LML's tendancies than any of the newbies.

So?

What information do you have about IH's role, and LML's role? How do you know what one says about the other will be truth? accurate?

Assume both are Town: Neither knows anything in-game about the other.
Assume one is Scum: One will lie to you, the other will know nothing.
Assume both are Scum: Both will lie to you.

I don't know what information you could hope to gain from any of those scenarios that you couldn't gain from doing your own homework. If you want to know about anyone in this game you can search the forums by user name.

IH, how do you feel about White looking to you for cues?

Peter, what do

you

think of his proposal?

Uh, you said you were going to start fresh and he attempted to do the same for you? Than you insulted him and he is currently pouting. I dunno... you both are hard to read.

---

I really don't like how Cheeky isn't participating in this game. If he is town, than 33% of the participating players are scum and thus have a greater ability to manipulate the game. If he is scum, than we have no means to discern that. It has been about 24 hours since his last post. If he chooses to go another 24 hours without posting I ask he immediately be replaced, as he has directly broken the rules of the game twice.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

FoS Cheeky

.

If nothing of substance comes within 24 hours you can count on me for a third vote.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Do you suffer from asshole-itis?

What? If I didn't ask, I'd never know! Man, you sure are sensitive if you take that as an insult.

Wow, that was a bit unnecessary wouldn't you think? It didn't get anyone anywhere and was just a personal attack on White. He asked a serious-ish question and then explained that he had Aspergers and was just trying to figure things out. Sure it wasn't very tactful, but it wasn't an all out verbal assault like your's was.

You sorta give me the ''I'm angry at the world'' feel.

Snix, you validated my point. Looks like you got whooshed.

Framing an insult in the form of a question doesn't change the fact that it is an insult. White said he had no problem with my question/lesson, so I think everyone is hunky-dory now. We have all learned something regarding social graces and have moved on.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Yeah... now this game grinds to a halt until we hear from Cheeky. Seriously, three posts that are completely devoid of content... I don't see how that is different from not playing at all, in which case he should be replaced immediately.

Can anyone think of a Pro-Town reason why Cheeky would be playing this way? He clearly isn't lurking, as he has twice made a point to let us know he is here.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Maybe... You'll notice how his post was almost exactly 48 hours since his last one on monday?

I don't want to have to wait until Friday to hear from him again. Especially if he is going to keep baiting us with "I'm here, for realz!" style posts.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

...er, scratch that. About 26 hours...

But still!

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Cheeky, how do you propose we hunt for scum?

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

I would actually be fine with a CLA lynch. I doubt that unless CLA asks for it, he;s going to be replaced because he's posting and picking up prods and then posting. He's here, just lurking.

AKA actively lurking. The scummy lurking.

This has been my thought too. I posted earlier how he has made it very clear he is here, yet is unwilling to participate.

@Cheeky>

1) How do you propose we find scum?

2) How many games on MafiaScum have you read?

3) You have two votes on you and plenty of FoS's. Tell me why we shouldn't lynch you.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Looks like I screwed up my coding while trimming down IH's post. That quote is from IH, not White.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Try answering all my questions.

1) How do you propose we find scum?

2) How many games on MafiaScum have you read?

--

Also,

You have been ACTIVELY lurking, which can only be thought of as an attempt to give the other players no information about yourself. If you continue to play as you are, we will never have "enough evidence" against you.

So...

3) What is "enough evidence" against a player?

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Thanks for the long post Vamp.

Would you mind critiquing your predecessor's play? Also, if you don't mind, would you mind saying who you think is most scummy?

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Honestly, I'm hoping he starts playing the game or is replaced. My words were stern in an attempt to light a fire under his fingers.

If CLA doesn't post within the allotted time and we are given no indication that he is going to be replaced, I will vote for him. If he does post and ignores the questions put to him, I will vote for him. If he refuses to hunt for scum, than I will vote for him.

However, the best course of action is to get him replaced. CLA, if you don't want to play this game, than just let us know. It isn't a big deal, we understand when real life gets busy.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Wow.

Cheeky, we need a role-claim out of you now.

Put on your flood pants: Its hammer time!

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

@White>

FYI, depending on the mod, a vote only counts if it is the exact spelling of the player's name. You have been using "CLA" in many of your posts, so I won't over analyze your intent. However, at this point, it is uncertain if your vote counts or not.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

I'm not sure what exactly to do here...

If I'm doing the odds right in my head I think Step 1 is confirmation that everyone has read LML's claim.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

Thanks for clearing that up Snix.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

vote White

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

LML and I are scum.

@White> This game would have been very different if CLA had been actively playing. I wouldn't be too hard on yourself. I was fairly concerned about hammering CLA and I kept putting it off. His self-hammer gave the town absolutely no information to work with day two.

I think the proper way to respond to LML's claim would have been patience. A real cop would not have counterclaimed, instead, he would vote on the false cop and wait out the result. If it looked like the town was going to lynch the false town target, the real cop could have spoke up and put a stop to it.

Snix> you should not have put your vote on White without hearing from IH first.

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

LML chose White and I didn't realize this. I wasn't sure if a vote was in or not so close before the deadline I sent in the choice for Vamp.

There were a few reasons:
A) He had given off no scummy vibes
B) He FoS'ed CLA, LML, and myself.
C) Wanted to keep White alive because he was so suspicious Day One

-Peter

[Peter Venkman]

woo hoo i was right!!!!!!

Yeah, your self hammer made that quite apparent. Along with a random voting on me, than a random vote on Snix.

...but at least you can be proud that in hindsight you "knew it all along." You sir, are a brilliant mind. Too bad you didn't share your brilliance with your team when it actually mattered.

-Peter