Open 29 - C9+2 (~GAME OVER~) before 470

[Guardian]

Send me my role your mudkip!

Hi Crub, YB, and ssf! I love you all so I replaced in :mregreen:. Rishi, I am sure I will come to love you in time .

ps: Mert, I love you too .

[Guardian]

Well, I am thinking YB. His hammer yesterday reeked of scumminess, and he was all too sure that HH was scum.

[Guardian]

Yeah, I don't know my role yet, but

vote: YB

seems like it can't be a bad decision.

[Guardian]

Yeah, I think if YB isn't scum, it is probably Rishi (or me, lol, I still have no role PM yet. I am playing assuming that I am town...). Crub and ssf seem town like.

I think I am town, from my read -- AmeliaLi seemed town to me. If I get a scum role PM I will be quite surprised.

[Guardian]

Rishi -- that is true actually.

unvote

.

I don't think anyone wanted to slow down besides you.

However, SSF's quick vote two and willingness to follow me is making me wonder...

[Guardian]

Just got my role . Not mafia. YB, I'd like to hear from you. Why were you so sure HH was scum? Why the quick hammer?

[Guardian]

Lol, to be honest, I was lying that I would have been surprised to get a scum role. I

am

really surprised to get a pro-town role. The voting history spoke volumes to me, but... I'm town xD.

[Guardian]

Why were you so sure HH was scum?

[Guardian]

**Guardian's re-analysis of the game, for the win**



YB -- altogether too sure that HH was scum, not willing to provide reasons for anything. I am going to

vote: YB

. This is lynch minus one. YB, if you have a role to claim, claim it.

SSF -- I think he is town, and here's why -- HH's attack on him. I don't think HH would attack his scum partner like that. I am pretty sure about this.

Crub -- he feels townlike, there is one post of his that gives me pause -- where he blatantly defends HH. I am not sure about him, but though I thought he was townlike earlier, he could be scum. Watch out for him in endgame if I'm dead .

Rishi -- I think he is town, because of his hammer on HH. Scum tend not to hammer their partners.

I think there is a high likelihood the scum is YB or Crub, YB being more likely.


By the way, this should be very very obvious, but if there is a cop with a guilty result, claim it now. We lynch who you got guilty on, and if they are town we lynch you tomorrow.


YB, any last defense, or any claim, would be nice. I think he is our last scum, with an outside chance of Crubscum or Rishiscum.

[Guardian]

Ok guys time to calm down a bit. We need to wait until we hear from HH before we start calling for his head.

Is the post I am referring to. You were on the wagon, but then call for the wagon to slow down -- but don't unvote or anything. It seems like you could be playing both sides -- wanting credit for a HH lynch if he is lynched, but hoping that he isn't lynched.

Maybe I am making too much out of it, but it leaves just a bit of suspicion in my mind that Crub could be partnered with HH.

At this point, I think YB is the more likely scum mate, by far, though, in any case...


I do want to hear more from YB. YB if you are town, please do try and defend yourself -- you are going to need to write a bit more about why HH was obviously scummy, and why you felt good about hammering Lateralus yesterday. If you are town, trying hard not to get mislynched here would be great.

Also, if town, I want to know who you are currently suspicious of and why.


SSF -- do you want YB to be hammered soon? Do you think he is definitely the last scum? What are your thoughts, I am interested.

Sidenote: Rishi, don't worry about being aligned with anyone alive. The only two players who had an alignment in this game were HH and someone remaining -- none of us need fear of looking aligned with anyone alive, because no such alliance can possibly exist.

Also, what you are saying about Crub gives me pause for thought too -- but, early in the game, at least, that is often called the "too townie" logical fallacy -- being suspicious of someone early because they look "too townie" has problems with it. However, as it gets later in the game, I do wonder why Crub is still alive...

[Guardian]

I do want to hear more from YB. YB if you are town, please do try and defend yourself --

you are going to need to write a bit more about why HH was obviously scummy, and why you felt good about hammering Lateralus yesterday.

If you are town, trying hard not to get mislynched here would be great.

Also, if town, I want to know who you are currently suspicious of and why.

Come on mate, I know you can do better than that.

[Guardian]

unvote: YB

.

I am not interested in a hammer here, actually.

Yogurt, WHAT tells did HH drop, and WHAT made you so sure about Lateralus?

WHY do you find me and Crub scummy? WHY is the other one likely to be a power role, and WHY do you find Rishi and Flea townlike?



I want content from you --

real

content. Go back and quote stuff. Explain what it means to you and why. This will require more than 30 seconds.

If you don't spend the 10 minutes of time it will take to do what I'm requesting and you are town and get lynched, then you have no one but yourself to blame for this, and I will be quite frustrated with you as I am town and want us to win!

Please, do as I ask.

[Guardian]

Lateralus was not helpful.

I agree with this. It was the main reason I voted for him myself! He came into the thread claiming that his main subject was someone who was already dead. This showed that he didn't even make an attempt at reading the thread.

Because, Scum or not, he's clearly not paying enough attention to be useful.

That was my reasoning for voting for Lateralus, and I stand by it.

SSF, what's with you and answering questions posed to other people? Nervous scum?

YB, please put doing what I requested as your #1 mafiascum priority if you are town. If you are scum, please put self voting as your #1 priority...

[Guardian]

Yeah. YB, I want a post with at least 2 quotes from HH and analysis of them specifically, and a summary of why you found him so scummy.

I also want at least 2 quotes from Lateralus and analysis of them specifically, and a summary of why you found him hammer worthy.

Lastly, pick your most suspicious player (me or Crub apparently...) and quote at least 2 posts explaining why you currently find them to be the most likely player in the game to be scum.

You are capable of this, I request that you do it, or you will be getting my vote.

Like Rishi said, if you can post 10 posts a day, you have the time to make one

quality

post here. If you fail/refuse to do so, you are going to get my vote -- and my extreme if you are town, as you have every opportunity here to explain yourself to a very patient and forgiving town, and appear to be wasting it.

[Guardian]

Shouldn't the cop claim even if has 1 confirmed innocent? I'm not disposed to believe a cop claim in lylo (if we mis-lynch today) and if there's a confirmed innocent won't that increase our odds of winning?

Hmm. We really should consider the merits of mass claiming today. YB is the most scummy, and he already claimed vanilla.

Should Crub, Rishi, me and SSF claim? If so, in what order?

I think if there is a doctor among us, they should not claim unless a cop also claims. So we should establish and order, and go through and claim cop/not cop then?

If someone claims cop and has someone alive as innocent, if we mislynch today then the cop will die at night and that innocent person will have to make a choice tomorrow, between the two remaining players.

I propose a Rishi-Crub-SSF-Me order, but that is obviously biased as I know I am not scum (and you don't).

I like this order because imo it is making the more likely scum player claim first -- the later players will counter if they are cop and one of the first few fakes claiming cop.

We should discuss the order in which to claim (having a predetermined order is

important

) and if we agree that it will be helpful to go through and claim/see if people are cop, then we should do so.

If there is a cop, then any potential doc should definitely claim -- again in order -- it leads to a guaranteed win if the cop has an innocent result on someone other then the doc (assuming a real cop claim).

I don't think a doc should claim if there is no cop, as the doc claim is not "provable" since there have been no successful protections, and a fake doc claim is very easy for scum at this point.


I also agree with Crub's other points. I want to hear what Crub asked from YB, and Rishi's buddying up is noted.

[Guardian]

You are probably right about how the doc should not claim actually, unless they are in danger of being lynched

Your bringing this up is actually quite pro-town, and I am getting a good vibe from you... I feel good about SSF as town as well, but I almost think Rishi, SSF, Crub, Guardian is better, since I don't feel that you would fake claim cop...

Eh, I really trust the read I got on SSF as town, so I think Rishi, Crub, SSF, Guardian is actually a pretty good order if no one objects.

Again, if we do this, cop ONLY claims if they have one or more definite innocents.



YB's reluctance/slowness to post his reasons is making me wonder if this is all just pointless and YB is scum, but we shall see, maybe he is a vanilla with good reasons for his suspicions?

[Guardian]

Now that you know what's going on (?), do you agree with the proposal, and the proposed order?

[Guardian]

Firstly... happy birthday .

I propose a Rishi-Crub-SSF-Me order, but that is obviously biased as I know I am not scum (and you don't).

I think Guardian should claim first, since it is his idea.

Actually, it was Crub's idea, I just expanded upon it. I assure you, I know exactly what response I am giving and it is not a fake one. I would be very happy for the town if the other players had to go before me, because I know I will not be throwing a fake cop claim at the end, and they will have to worry about whether I am the cop, or not .

I just find it a little fishy that he proposed the order and went last, giving the excuse, "I know I am not scum."

I admitted that the ordering was biased, but SSF and Crub agreed -- and while I understand your comments about my voting history, do you really believe me to be scum? The idea of a proposed order is having the scummier players go first, and then less so, on and on. If you (and the other two) think I am most likely to be scum, I am OK with going first.... Like I said though, I would be quite happy for the town with me going last, because all three of you (if scum) would have to worry about whether I am a cop or not.

The person who goes last (if scum) has the opportunity to claim cop "for free" as no one can counter claim. I am most happy with myself there, because I know I am town, if that makes sense.

Still, Guardian has the most suspicious voting history. I'll offer to go second since I realize it's somewhat suspicious that I am the only person who doesn't like the vote order. I propose Guardian-Me-SSF-Crub.

Mainly, I don't want Guardian to go last. I'll still go first if everyone else wants me to.

Like I said, I do have a suspicious voting history, but I cannot explain that other than to say I am not scum and that I ask you to look at my play since I replaced in and consider if a scum would act as I have.

I do not think it makes sense for me to go first, as I find Rishi and Crub more suspicious than me -- I could see SSF going last theoretically, but again I am more comfortable going last .

[Guardian]

I would be okay with a Rishi-Crub-Guardian-somestrangeflea order. I don't mind going first. Why is Guardian so reluctant to go early?

I am town. I know that when I claim, I will not be lying. It is in the town's best interests for me to go last.

The scum probably would want to go where you have me -- third -- as a cop claim there is somewhat believable with one person behind you, but much less risky than if someone claims cop when going first. I am happy going third if you guys agree that that is better, though.

Rishi, by the way, just to simplify things, if you are a cop (I thought I might have noticed a cop tell, I am probably wrong) you can just claim it now since you are going first and the scum won't counterclaim if there is an already-claimed cop.


YB choosing makes sense IF he is town.

Really, I think this might all be pointless, as it has been two days and YB isn't getting around to the analysis he promised so it makes me think he is scum... but yeah I prefer claiming last for the above reasons.

[Guardian]

I would be okay with a Rishi-Crub-Guardian-somestrangeflea order. I don't mind going first. Why is Guardian so reluctant to go early?

I am town. I know that when I claim, I will not be lying. It is in the town's best interests for me to go last.

It doesn't matter how you word it, you can't use "I'm Townie" as a reason that you should claim last, simply because everyone else can use that reasoning as well!

You

and

Crub agreed with my ordering, and that was my original and only reason. Why the change in opinion?


I am still waiting on YB for meaningful content...

[Guardian]

YB -- too townie

is

bad logic. If you find me scummy, that's fine. But if you find me scummy because I am looking "too townie"... then you aren't finding me scummy, you are finding me townlike. Also, those posts with quotes that you promised us...?


SSF, et. al -- I am fine with going third, as at least two of you prefer it. The point is the ordering is supposed to be reflective of who the town finds suspicious. I find myself least suspicious, so I wanted to go last. However, you disagree, so I will go third.


Rishi, you are up, claim cop with result on someone alive, or not cop with result on someone alive. Then Crub, then me, then SSF.

[Guardian]

I'm not saying that YogurtBandit isn't suspicious, but I really think that the last Mafia has to be somestrangeflea or YogurtBandit and we have two chances to lynch.

I just re-read the thread, and I get the same feeling. You guys have no assurance that I am town other than my play, but I know I am town -- and so I

know

that someone bussed their scum-partner day one.

I re-read the game, and HH FoSing SSF seems kind of forced now to me -- SSF FoS'd him back too, and did not vote until later. If YB is not scum, either SSF, Rishi, or Crub bussed HH day one.

Crub I don't think did it, because his vote was on from so early and for so long, it just seems unlikely.

Rishi, I think is also unlikely to have been busing - he hammered. His play has also been townlike.

SSF, one the other hand, didn't want to get on, and then got on for weak reasons to make HH lynch -1. Also, as Rishi noted, seemed like he was trying to slow the game down to not lynch his partner... Eh, maybe I am reading that wrong though.

Really, I think YB is very very much most likely to be the play today, and if he is not scum whoever is left alive will have a tough choice tomorrow.


YB, I am getting impatient. You have until Tuesday evening to make the quote filled posts and cases you have promised us, or you will be getting my vote. I repeat, if you are town, and fail to defend yourself, you are doing us all a great disservice...


Crub -- claim, cop with result or not cop with result.

[Guardian]

I am also not a cop with a result. I wanted to go last so no one could lie before me, as they'd have to wonder if I was a cop. Oh well.

Flea, you're last.


Crub, no problem, I can definitely understand that .

[Guardian]

I didn't want to say this until we went through with it, but I had a nagging suspicion that this was going to result in there being no cop. After all that, lol!

Anyways, well done guys on the claiming... YB, you have some 'splaining to do.

[Guardian]

YB, you have less than 24 hours. Read the thread carefully and do what was requested of you. From what I know of your other games, none are under a deadline or you are needed or whatnot. This should be your #1 mafiascum priority.

I am fairly sure you will be checking this site tonight or tomorrow. You have a me-imposed deadline here.

Do what was requested of you, or my vote will be going back on you. If you

need

an extension let me know. Otherwise, get your job done, or my vote goes to you sometime tomorrow evening.

If you are somehow town

and

don't do this, I will be very, very angry with you mate.

[Guardian]

Vote: YogurtBandit

.

You are posting all over the site and not here. I expect a good explanation. Well, sadly, I don't expect one, but I sure would like one. If you are a townie getting mis-lynched, you really need to reconsider how many games you are playing in and your commitment to them. .

[Guardian]

Oh yeah? Care to spend the next hour reading the thread and doing what we asked you to do a week ago to prevent this?

[Guardian]

You feel good about this lynch Rishi? Kinda fast . I hope YB is scum.

[Guardian]

Hmm, you have given me a lot to address.

I have a really good explanation for lying about my read: I lied about my read because I thought I was going to be scum. When I replaced in, I found out, to my surprise, that I was not scum. Townies have no incentive to lie, ever, so I revealed the truth.

Consider this very carefully: If I got my role PM, and was

scum

, I would have had no incentive to admit that I was lying. Only because I was town and I didn't want to confuse anything more than it already was confused did I admit that I had lied.


About A-Li: I think A-Li's play was rather indifferent. Her voting pattern looked/looks really scummy to me, but in terms of her words and actions, they can be read as disinterested townie.


About me setting up a you-Rishi endgame. Frankly, were I scum, Crub would be dead right now. Rishi was so convinced that ssf or YB would be scum, I would not have considered letting SSF live. SSF coming up as cop was quite a surprise to me.

Sidenote: I am guessing SSF wasn't

that

terrible at picking his investigation choices, and instead had an innocent result and messed up claiming . If that is the case, add him to YB to the people to be annoyed with if we lose.


More about me setting up a Crub-Rish endgame. My opinions definitely changed. I read the game, considered different things, and my opinions of others changed. If you want to hear more on that, go ahead and ask.

I am sill unsure as to which of you two is the last scum, though I am leaning Rishi, but only slightly. His hammer day one seems so good, but then again so does Crub's sitting on the wagon all day. I don't blame either of you two for day two, but I do find Rishi's hammer day three very quick -- I was hoping to finally maybe convince YB to post -- I ask again, Rishi did you feel good about the hammer and why make it before YB had a chance to respond to me?

Crub is a not a bad candidate because his voting history is much too perfect, and frankly because he is alive right now. I am WIFOMing myself to death with this, but it is so hard to see Rishi killing SSF last night. Really, it is about a tossup for me as to which of you is scum.

Honestly this is quite a hard endgame for me to figure out... I am currently 0/2 in endgames as town, and I would very much not like to go 0/3.


As for my insistence to go last in the claim, I think the whole claiming process looks good for me, not bad for me . I mentioned the claiming process, and was instrumental in making the claiming happen. I think that having a good claiming process and getting us to claim was very good for the town, and though SSF was either a very unlucky cop or messed it up for us, my setting up the process (should have) helped the town.

As for wanting to go last particularly, I've explained that. I am a vanilla townie, and I knew I was going to claim that, and I wanted any potential fake claimers going before me. I would have expected everyone to want to go last, but maybe you all were less familiar with the claiming process than I am. In any event, you

agreed

to the claiming process, and when it was suggested that I go third instead of last I happily obliged.


Crub, this is not really relevant to you in making your decision, but as per my feelings on it I am quite torn. If you vote me and are scum that is great, because I was not leaning that way, Rishi will not quickhammer, and

he

will have to make the decision that you are scum, and not I. However, if you are town, I urge you to try and convince me of this and to not vote for me. I would very much like to get my first pro-town victory.

[Guardian]

Well, this is difficult. Both of you can't be scum, but both of you are suspicious of me . This doesn't do much to help me differentiate between the two. I am not going to focus on that right now though -- I will focus more on hunting if you like, but I feel that it is more important for me to focus on not getting mislynched right now.

As for my "case" on you Rishi -- the sad thing is if I decided I wanted to make a case on either of you I could do so convincingly. However, when I'm town, I tend to be unsure of myself and I don't like making cases unless I am pretty sure I am

right

. When I am town I sway more, which is what is happening here. I don't feel I am "grasping at straws", though I see how you could see it this way.

I agree with you on ssf, though someone could have killed him just for the wifom nature of his being killed. Your pointing out that you thought someone would bring this up makes me wonder if you've spent too much time thinking about this . Other than that this post by you feels townlike though.

I too wonder why he isn't dead. I don't think that me being "overt"/agressive is a scum tell, that is just me.

A-Li's voting patterns are bad. I can't really say much about that. The only thing is that if you look at when she posts and when the hammers happen, she can definitely be seen as uninterested townie -- and I guess that was the case.

I keep my options open as town -- I don't know for sure who is scum! As scum, I tend to do the opposite.

If you want to confirm the metagame of me on this, feel free to look at my wiki -- AM mafia day four is a perfect example of me doing what I am doing here as town. Mafia and Werewolves is a great example of how me being single-minded can be indicative of my being scum.

As for me not receiving my role PM, ask the mod about it. I am not sure if he will be willing to confirm it (though I hope so) but I guarantee that he won't say that he sent me my role PM before he said he did.

Me insisting on going last in the cop claim yesterday -- I already explained this. And I didn't go last, even when Crub said "SSF, go". I went third, because that was what we agreed on.

I am begging for a town win here. Whichever of you is town, I implore you not to vote for me, as a quickhammer will ensue. At the very least, give us a few pages -- if you end up voting me, I will understand, but if you vote me without giving me a chance to explain myself you will be added to YB & SSF in clutching defeat from the jaws of victory.

Rishi, if you are town, you should feel bad if your play here results in a loss, regardless of me being the more "obvious" choice. I really am not going to be pleased if you are town and you quicklynch me and then go "oh well, Crub outplayed us." I also disagree that "all the signs are there" and that you would be choosing to ignore them. I don't think my play in this game is very indicative of me being scum, at all!

Again, I implore whichever of you is town not to vote me quickly. At the very least, for a page or so, don't vote me

first

. It is incredibly ironic how well I can build a case when I know who needs to be lynched -- and if someone votes and the other player doesn't hammer, then that player will be guaranteed to be town.

Any questions you have, please ask. If you are town and put a hasty vote on me, you are going on my

bad

list.

[Guardian]

Well, this is difficult. Both of you can't be scum, but both of you are suspicious of me . This doesn't do much to help me differentiate between the two. I am not going to focus on that right now though --

I will focus more on hunting if you like, but I feel that it is more important for me to focus on not getting mislynched right now

.

You know, there's more to finding scum than just pointing the finger back at someone who is accusing you.

I think I made it clear that I wasn't going to be hunting in that post. Do you want me to hunt?

As for my "case" on you Rishi -- the sad thing is if I decided I wanted to make a case on either of you I could do so convincingly. However, when I'm town, I tend to be unsure of myself and I don't like making cases unless I am pretty sure I am

right

. When I am town I sway more, which is what is happening here. I don't feel I am "grasping at straws", though I see how you could see it this way.

You have not made a convincing case on either me or Crub yet.

I am not sure either way yet. Shoot, I don't even have a very good feeling either way yet. Why do you want me to make a case if I am not sure which of you is scum?

If you're really town, then you would give me a good reason to vote Crub. But you haven't given me such a reason.

I don't know that you are town. Do you want me to "make cases" on both you and Crub, in attempts to get one of you to vote the other? I am not sure which of you is scum, and not sure

who

to make a case on.

I agree with you on ssf, though someone could have killed him just for the wifom nature of his being killed. Your pointing out that you thought someone would bring this up makes me wonder if you've spent too much time thinking about this . Other than that this post by you feels townlike though.

I have been spending a lot of time thinking about this. I hope you would to. We're at an important stage in the game.

I hadn't, to be honest -- I've had only about 6 hours to do so, theoretically, and there have been other things on my mind as well. I didn't know ssf would end up dead today; I was quite surprised when it happened.

I don't think somestrangeflea got killed for the WIFOM argument. I think he got killed because someone suspected he was a cop. Then, I figured that someone could use the WIFOM argument to explain why somestrangeflea was killed.

If you say so. I am not sure what to think.

I too wonder why he isn't dead. I don't think that me being "overt"/agressive is a scum tell, that is just me.

Fair enough.

Ok, so here you accept my metagame defense -- that me being aggressive is just me. Then you contradict yourself later...

A-Li's voting patterns are bad. I can't really say much about that. The only thing is that if you look at when she posts and when the hammers happen, she can definitely be seen as uninterested townie -- and I guess that was the case.

A disinterested townie or a scum flying under the radar.

Yeah -- but it can be seen from both sides -- like I said I was quite surprised that I was town .

I keep my options open as town -- I don't know for sure who is scum! As scum, I tend to do the opposite.

If you want to confirm the metagame of me on this, feel free to look at my wiki -- AM mafia day four is a perfect example of me doing what I am doing here as town. Mafia and Werewolves is a great example of how me being single-minded can be indicative of my being scum.

I don't care how you played other games - I care how you are playing THIS game.

Then why accept my metagame defense earlier?

It's very easy to change up your playstyles between games and then point to another game as justification of your role.

That would be great, but it isn't true, at least not for me.

As for me not receiving my role PM, ask the mod about it. I am not sure if he will be willing to confirm it (though I hope so) but I guarantee that he won't say that he sent me my role PM before he said he did.

I am inclined to believe you that you didn't receive your role PM at first. However, you were playing the game without knowing your role. You seemed sincere when you were doing that, and you seem sincere now. I think this actually works against you. It shows that you can seem pro-town even when you are lying through your teeth. It's a good trait to have, but it makes me less inclined to believe you right now.

OK, that makes sense if you think about it at the first level -- but think more carefully about my revealing that I had lied. Revealing that I had lied will

definitely

not serve to make myself look more townlike, and a mafia member would have 0 incentive to reveal such information.

Me insisting on going last in the cop claim yesterday -- I already explained this. And I didn't go last, even when Crub said "SSF, go". I went third, because that was what we agreed on.

You went third after I pushed for it. I was trying to get you to go FIRST and you refused.

I refused because both Crub and SSF had agreed I go last...

You were not being a team player during that claiming exercise

I disagree strongly, I went third to ameliorate you and YB, even when Crub and ssf were fine with my going last.

- you were merely looking at things from your own perspective. That is what makes me suspicious.

Look -- I can only be 100% sure of my own alignment. I know I am town. I wanted a townie claiming last. Therefore, with the information I had, I wanted to go last. Does that not make sense??

I am begging for a town win here. Whichever of you is town, I implore you not to vote for me, as a quickhammer will ensue. At the very least, give us a few pages -- if you end up voting me, I will understand, but if you vote me without giving me a chance to explain myself you will be added to YB & SSF in clutching defeat from the jaws of victory.

I will not vote for you quickly. If Crub votes for you, I will not hammer without some discussion from you.

I'll believe it when I see it...

But you have to set a reasonable length of time. I say that, if Crub votes for you, I will give you 48 hours to convince me not to hammer. If that sounds too short, let me know.

It sounds short to me, at least at the rate we are going -- I would prefer a few pages, not a few days. If Crub votes me and you actually don't hammer, I'd like you to give me a few pages because then I will know for certain what my goal is in the game -- to convince you I am not scum -- because I will know for certain that you are town. Right now, I don't really feel good about making a case on either of you, as I don't have a particularly strong indication one way or the other as to who is town.

Rishi, if you are town, you should feel bad if your play here results in a loss, regardless of me being the more "obvious" choice. I really am not going to be pleased if you are town and you quicklynch me and then go "oh well, Crub outplayed us." I also disagree that "all the signs are there" and that you would be choosing to ignore them. I don't think my play in this game is very indicative of me being scum, at all!

Your opinion on your own play hardly proves anything. Heh. In my opinion, I am a handsome and sexy man. It doesn't make it true.

I am telling you what my opinion is so that you might see the reasoning behind it...

I will feel bad if I lose, but I will feel a lot worse if I lose to you than if I lose to Crub.

Losing to me is not a possibility unless you are scum.

Again, I implore whichever of you is town not to vote me quickly. At the very least, for a page or so, don't vote me

first

. It is incredibly ironic how well I can build a case when I know who needs to be lynched -- and if someone votes and the other player doesn't hammer, then that player will be guaranteed to be town.

I said I wouldn't hasty vote.

Again, I will believe this when I see it.

Any questions you have, please ask. If you are town and put a hasty vote on me, you are going on my

bad

list.

Aww, man. If I am on your bad list, does that mean I won't get a Christmas card and won't be invited to your birthday party?

Pretty much. Oh, and I won't particularly look for playing in games with you, which would be a shame, because up to this point you have seemed to be a very competent player, and a nice guy to boot.

That kind of threat didn't work on me in 2nd grade and it doesn't work now. This is a game. For example, if one of my friends absolutely sucks at chess, that doesn't mean he's no longer my friend.

But it does mean that you don't really want to play chess with him any more if you want a good game of chess .

Don't toss out-of-game threats at me for something that happens in a game.

See above.


So um, what do you want from me? You seem to be twisting my arguments a bit; in a few places you really seem to be just blatantly missing what I am trying to say.

I say that I haven't made a case because I am not sure what to think yet -- and you reply that I haven't made a convincing case yet. There seems to be a strong disconnect there.

It is interesting to note that the only thing you agree with me on is when I find Crub's being alive suspicious.


I hit preview and saw Crub's post -- you both want me to make good cases on each other even though I am not convinced?? You both are asking me to be rather "fake" in that regard, and it puzzles me....

[Guardian]

I think my last three posts have been much more than WIFOM and appeals to emotion. I have pointed to concrete evidence of how my day three play has obvious town motivations, and pointed to metagame reasons as to why my play here is inconsistent with my being scum.



Look at this from my perspective -- you want me to make a case on both of you, when I know for sure that one of you isn't scum? I will try and do it and be objective about it if this is what you *both* want (since one of you is town and wants this), but it may be hard for me to come up with great cases since after multiple re-reads I myself am not convinced either way.

[Guardian]

Hey -- you guys have both given me quite a bit to comment on. I tip my hat to both of you -- the townie for waiting, and the scum for looking so darned townlike! I will respond directly to both of your posts as a whole tomorrow.

For now, I will say that ASAP (I owe two games attention before this one, sadly) I will go through the thread and make my cases on each of you. One of them will be a waste, but I'm willing to do it to try and win this. I will do the cases in separate posts, and in the spirit of looking at this from your shoes and not mine, in each I will assume that the person I am not making the case on is townie (since that would literally have to be the case). If this method is unacceptable to either of you let me know.

[Guardian]

As promised...

The best defense is a good offense. Go ahead and make your case on me and Crub. Crub and I both agree you are the most suspicious, so I think your best bet would be to convince Crub and me to vote each other.

That just sounds wrong to me -- like you both "think I am scum", and you both want me to try and convince you to vote each other. I don't understand why the townie of you wants me to do this, but I shall.

All three of us said this. One of us is lying.

True.

It's not a contradiction. You're always aggressive. I'll accept that. But if you want me to look at the finer points of your play to differentiate how you act as scum and how you act as town, then that's easy to change.

I don't think "indecisive as town, decisive as scum" is a finer point of my play.

You can't change your overall play style, but you can change specifics.

See above.

That's plausible. Okay, I'll accept that.

As Crub points out later, this is a bit WIFOM, but yeah, I wasn't thinking of this at the time, but to me that is a moderately strong "town tell"

Yeah, but you could have alleviated any suspicion by offering to go second. I had already offered to go first. You did not consider, for even a second, that this decision would not have had lasting repercussions?

At the time, my thoughts were like "well, besides this people aren't finding me suspicious, 3/4 agree with the me going last plan, but whatever, I'll go third." If I had known going 2nd would have helped to the extent it would have at this point, I surely would have.

You made your decision. Live with it.

I didn't realize it would have this implications as far as you are concerned...

By the way, I am curious why Crub was okay with you going last. Crub?

Crub?

No, it does not make sense. Stick yourself in someone else's shoes for a second. Does any other player have any proof that you are town? You have to learn to see things from someone else's perspective. Seriously, this is just an argument that is full of holes. You honestly can't see how another person could see it as suspicious that you wanted to go last?

I think everyone in this situation *should* have wanted to go last. Put yourself in your own shoes -- why didn't you want to go last?? The only benefit of going first as town is so people think you are townlike by cooperating -- almost all the benefits come when you go last.

Just admit it was a stupid play. I will be more inclined to trust someone who can admit to a mistake rather than someone who keeps touting the same fallacious reasoning.

I would love to "admit a mistake" but I can only see it being a mistake as far as this specific game is concerned. It would be disingenuous of me to say "oh my bad, I made a mistake, you are right" because I don't believe that to be true.

I am a nice guy. But I am putting pressure on you to see how you defend. Don't take my in-game behavior as indicative of my out-of-game personality.

Putting pressure on me has nothing to do with you being a nice guy or not. Sorry for any confusion. :hug:

Point taken. I will not make a hasty decision here.

THANK you. You have struck me as incredibly pro-town today...

I know you said you'll believe it when you see it. But, if you treat what I say with skepticism, how can you expect me to take everything you say at face value? Again, put yourself in someone else's shoes for once.

Will do...

If I am misunderstanding you, then explain yourself. I am giving you the chance. No voting just yet.

Ok, nothing is particularly significant, it just seemed to be a general pattern... if I see anything of great import on re-read I will point it out.

So, you don't have to just say, "Here is who I think is scum." Just go ahead and build cases against Crub and me. You don't have to come to a definite conclusion.

Another good point. Will do. And I suspect doing the cases will aid me in reaching this definite conclusion. I am beginning to think it will lead me to Crubscum, but I will try and do both cases objectively and see.

I guess asking me to do these cases is really indirectly asking me to get a better opinion of who is scum and who isn't, so I now have some internal motivation for doing so.

It is somewhat suspicious, but no one was sure whether or not there was a doctor. Maybe someone was going for a secondary target because they weren't sure if there was a doctor? I will say that somestrangeflea was extremely unlikely to be protected by a doctor, making him a guaranteed kill. That's another possibility on why he was killed.

True. I am getting such a town feeling from these recent posts of yours. .

[Guardian]

I too wonder why he isn't dead. I don't think that me being "overt"/agressive is a scum tell, that is just me.

Fair enough.

Ok, so here you accept my metagame defense -- that me being aggressive is just me. Then you contradict yourself later...

Originally Rishi was saying that you being "Overt" was a good thing. The fact that I wasn't in his opinion made me more scummy. He's just agreeing with you because you're agreeing with him Nothing to do with metagaming you.

Huh?

A-Li's voting patterns are bad. I can't really say much about that. The only thing is that if you look at when she posts and when the hammers happen, she can definitely be seen as uninterested townie -- and I guess that was the case.

A disinterested townie or a scum flying under the radar.

Yeah -- but it can be seen from both sides -- like I said I was quite surprised that I was town .

I don't think that saying you were surprised at being town is helping your cause.

Hmm? It was honesty. Townies don't lie. I don't see why telling the truth about my pre-PM play was a bad decision, or why it is making me look scummy.

I keep my options open as town -- I don't know for sure who is scum! As scum, I tend to do the opposite.

If you want to confirm the metagame of me on this, feel free to look at my wiki -- AM mafia day four is a perfect example of me doing what I am doing here as town. Mafia and Werewolves is a great example of how me being single-minded can be indicative of my being scum.

I don't care how you played other games - I care how you are playing THIS game.

Then why accept my metagame defense earlier?

I don't think he did. Also I don't think using metagame as a defense is plausible.

I do think metagame defenses can be plausible, and I think that accepting that I am always aggressive (without any evidence) is just as much accepting a metagame defense as accepting that I am indecisive as town and decisive as scum.

As for me not receiving my role PM, ask the mod about it. I am not sure if he will be willing to confirm it (though I hope so) but I guarantee that he won't say that he sent me my role PM before he said he did.

I am inclined to believe you that you didn't receive your role PM at first. However, you were playing the game without knowing your role. You seemed sincere when you were doing that, and you seem sincere now. I think this actually works against you. It shows that you can seem pro-town even when you are lying through your teeth. It's a good trait to have, but it makes me less inclined to believe you right now.

OK, that makes sense if you think about it at the first level -- but think more carefully about my revealing that I had lied. Revealing that I had lied will

definitely

not serve to make myself look more townlike, and a mafia member would have 0 incentive to reveal such information.

WIFOM

It is somewhat WIFOM -- but it is something as scum that I would ONLY do if I thought it would result in me looking townlike.

I did it as town because I thought having the truth out there was a better idea, even though it might look bad to be lying. I literally would have no motivation to do that as scum.

Me insisting on going last in the cop claim yesterday -- I already explained this. And I didn't go last, even when Crub said "SSF, go". I went third, because that was what we agreed on.

You went third after I pushed for it. I was trying to get you to go FIRST and you refused.

I refused because both Crub and SSF had agreed I go last...

You were not being a team player during that claiming exercise

I disagree strongly, I went third to ameliorate you and YB, even when Crub and ssf were fine with my going last.

- you were merely looking at things from your own perspective. That is what makes me suspicious.

Look -- I can only be 100% sure of my own alignment. I know I am town. I wanted a townie claiming last. Therefore, with the information I had, I wanted to go last. Does that not make sense??

It makes perfect sense if we we're 100% sure of your alignment but we're not. This too is WIFOM, you would want to go last no matter what alignment you were.

OK, so how is me wanting to go last evidence of me being scum?

I am begging for a town win here. Whichever of you is town, I implore you not to vote for me, as a quickhammer will ensue. At the very least, give us a few pages -- if you end up voting me, I will understand, but if you vote me without giving me a chance to explain myself you will be added to YB & SSF in clutching defeat from the jaws of victory.

I will not vote for you quickly. If Crub votes for you, I will not hammer without some discussion from you.

I'll believe it when I see it...

But you have to set a reasonable length of time. I say that, if Crub votes for you, I will give you 48 hours to convince me not to hammer. If that sounds too short, let me know.

It sounds short to me, at least at the rate we are going -- I would prefer a few pages, not a few days. If Crub votes me and you actually don't hammer, I'd like you to give me a few pages because then I will know for certain what my goal is in the game -- to convince you I am not scum -- because I will know for certain that you are town. Right now, I don't really feel good about making a case on either of you, as I don't have a particularly strong indication one way or the other as to who is town.

Rishi, if you are town, you should feel bad if your play here results in a loss, regardless of me being the more "obvious" choice. I really am not going to be pleased if you are town and you quicklynch me and then go "oh well, Crub outplayed us." I also disagree that "all the signs are there" and that you would be choosing to ignore them. I don't think my play in this game is very indicative of me being scum, at all!

Your opinion on your own play hardly proves anything. Heh. In my opinion, I am a handsome and sexy man. It doesn't make it true.

I am telling you what my opinion is so that you might see the reasoning behind it...

I will feel bad if I lose, but I will feel a lot worse if I lose to you than if I lose to Crub.

Losing to me is not a possibility unless you are scum.

Again, I implore whichever of you is town not to vote me quickly. At the very least, for a page or so, don't vote me

first

. It is incredibly ironic how well I can build a case when I know who needs to be lynched -- and if someone votes and the other player doesn't hammer, then that player will be guaranteed to be town.

I said I wouldn't hasty vote.

Again, I will believe this when I see it.

Any questions you have, please ask. If you are town and put a hasty vote on me, you are going on my

bad

list.

Aww, man. If I am on your bad list, does that mean I won't get a Christmas card and won't be invited to your birthday party?

Pretty much. Oh, and I won't particularly look for playing in games with you, which would be a shame, because up to this point you have seemed to be a very competent player, and a nice guy to boot.

That kind of threat didn't work on me in 2nd grade and it doesn't work now. This is a game. For example, if one of my friends absolutely sucks at chess, that doesn't mean he's no longer my friend.

But it does mean that you don't really want to play chess with him any more if you want a good game of chess .

Don't toss out-of-game threats at me for something that happens in a game.

See above.

This is one huge appeal to emotion.

I think that is a broad sweeping generalization that is in no way entirely accurate.

So um, what do you want from me? You seem to be twisting my arguments a bit; in a few places you really seem to be just blatantly missing what I am trying to say.

I think theres a bit of that going on both ways.

Yeah -- no communication is perfect.

I lost my train of thought half way through that post.

I

was supposed

to be showing how most of your arguments have either been WIFOM or appealing to emotion

.

Woah, I

really

don't like that! The whole point of your post was to disregard my arguments and attack my credibility? Shouldn't you have been trying to understand my arguments and judge them and label them appropriately? That sentence makes me think that you had a preconceived notion and just applied it as you saw fit.

Using metagame as a defense I find WIFOM. If you know there is a discernible difference between your town game and your scum game you'd be trying to make your scum game more like your town game.

Trying, sure. Succeeding? Not in this game, in my case. If you've read AM mafia, you will see how my back and forth endgame (and in this case near endgame) behavior is classic me-town.

[Guardian]

So, there you have them, my direct responses to your previous posts. Now, I will go back and try as objectively as possible to analyze each of you -- in one sweep assuming Crub is vanilla and Rishi is scum, and one assuming Rishi is vanilla and Crub is scum. I'll then try and compare the two and see which makes the more sense. Rishi has claimed vanilla -- Crub if you somehow are going to claim doctor, now is the time.

I owe one more game a thorough re-read before I do this, so give me some leeway timewise, but expect it around the weekend, maybe before.

From the posts of today alone,

FoS: Crub

. You seem much more eager to just get me lynched, and less interested in listening to what I have to say than Rishi. I feel somewhat strongly about this, and in fact am quite tempted to vote you and see if Rishi hammers, but I really don't want to lose this game so I am going to go through the effort, be as objective as possible, and see what inferences I can make.

Later.

[Guardian]

Just checking in, to make sure that you're still in the middle of your Crubscum/Rishitown and Rishiscum/Crubtown analysis Guardian?

I will get to it this weekend as promised -- there is that one game ahead of this on the priority list, and it is deadlined (non-retractable) for tonight.

[Guardian]

OK, so like I said, I'm gonna read through making assumptions, and see which seems more plausible...

Before I start, the one thing I want to explain -- I asked Crub if he was claiming doctor as I would assume a doctor would play differently from a townie -- to not draw attention to themselves for NK. Since all three of us have claimed vanilla, that is how I am reading the game.



This re-read I am going through assuming Crub is mafia and Rishi is town.

---

16, Rishi makes a vote because of annoyedness -- makes sense as town, I've seen town do that before, and not scum do that.

18, Rishi removes vote because of Lynch -2, also plausible

22, Crub votes town and FOS's scum when both committed equal acts. Scum are more likely to do this -- they can distance from their partner yet not contribute to lynching them.

29, Crub backs down somewhat from suspicion on Lateralus and doesn't even mention HH. Makes sense again.

33, Crub points out that DG didn't know what she was doing -- makes sense as mafia, throwing suspicion around. No tell either way.

39, Crub unvotes Lateralus and votes HH after Ripley did so and provides the following reason: "The fact that HH just quoted lateralus (post 24) and couldn't come up with his own reason seems more scummy to me". I don't get that, or buy it. This smells like busing.

40, With two votes on HH, Rish advises that we back down from a fast lynch. That looks bad for Rish-town.

44, Crub says "so let's argue pointlessly?" This post strikes me the wrong way definitely. He is like "well, there is nothing to argue about really." Argue why HH is scum. Argue some other case. Don't ask a pointless question like that.

47, Rishi wants to hear from lateralus and HH, very reasonable...

52, Rishi finds HH suspicious because he has his vote still on SSF - an important distinction.

62,63 are reasonable for crub-town or crub-scum

65, Crub wants HH's input. Again, reasonable.

72 feels like Rishi is directing Lateralus to not get mislynched. It would feel really really scumm if Lateralus was scum, but he is town, so null tell

74 is reasonable for crub-town

77, Rishi is more disturbed by HH but hasn't voted yet.

86, Rishi has very reasonable thoughts on why he finds HH scummy

88, Crub talks about forcing a claim out of HH. He wants to hear from the lurkers, too.

89, Rishi wants to hear more from HH.

105, After Ripley unvotes, Crub asks that we calm down and wait...

114, Rishi points out HH's hypocrisy.

116,117,120 REALLY look like Rishi is town and trying to figure out HH's alignment. He then hammers HH. Scum don't often hammer their partners. Rishi seems really town to me.

Notable is that Crub doesn't post while the wagon moves from lynch -2 to lynch. I think Crub accidentally was on his partner's lynch wagon, and Rishi hammered.


126 by Rishi is odd though -- and wrong. One of his scum partners did vote for him. And why assume that one didn't? His attack on Lateralus makes a lot of sense though.

128 is a great point by Ripley, that scum jump on bandwagons, not start them. Rishi jumped on the end of the bandwagon, and didn't start it, to get himself a good voting record.

156 strikes me as really town by Rishi

159 by Rishi is also greatly town.

168 does too...

172 is really pro-town by Crub though. GAHHH. This is why I can't make up my mind.

192 seems like basless pressure by Crub though.


Eh, I don't really feel like continuing to do post by post at this point, as it is the current day, and we have all adressed it.



I think Crub is scum though. Rishi has just been way too obviously town in this analysis, and it makes far too much sense for Rishi to be town that Crub to be town.

Crub, I want to hear from you. Your voting record is too perfect. You never really claimed vanilla townie until like just now. Also, you slink on the HH wagon without a lot of reasons, and I think you stayed on accidentally or just to look town. Also, Rishi's interaction with HH near the end of day 1 felt like HH talking to a townie not like HH talking to a scum partner.

Give me a convincing reason not to, or a convincing reason to vote for Rishi, or I will probably vote for you in a bit, Crub.


There is a case that Rishi could be scum. His hammer was there just to leave a voting record, and his voting pattern is really bad besides that. I just don't think he is scum though. His posts seem like they are coming from a townie.

Crub, again, convince me otherwise, or I may very well vote you.

[Guardian]

vote: Crub

.

Rishi, what do you want from me? I threatened to vote for Crub, and he voted me before we had the chance to discuss things. If he is town, he would have been in my position, wanting to talk things out in case you were scum.

Does him voting for me immediately after I present the results of my re-read (him=scum) strike you as town play??

It reeks of OMGUS scum to me.


The case on me is basically:

"His predecessor didn't really care much and had a bad voting record. Oh, and he didn't want to claim first."

I thought I was fair in claiming third (and would have claimed 0th if I knew it would mean coming close to losing the game ), and Rishi, my and your voting record is exactly the same except for day 1 where AmeliaLi didn't do anything....

Is there anything I am missing in that? Seriously, I don't get how you are 80% sure or whatever, I see the case on Crub as being about as strong as or even more strong than the case on me.



I did the re-read I promised, I found scum between you and Crub when the difference between you two was nigh indiscernible.... What more do you want from me?

Sidenote: I'd

really

like to get a town win at LYLO when I've found scum for once -- this would be 0/4 wins when I've found scum at LYLO if Crub isn't lynched .


Rishi, what do you want from me? Make the case against Crub clearer? I can do that, I think. Really, I don't think it is that much of a stretch to say that AmerliaLi was uninterested townie and Crub was scum.

Rishi, I am waiting on you for some direction

, otherwise I will address Crub's points and try and make a clearer case on him?


Also, Rishi, I am V/LA Wed-Sunday -- would it really be that much of a pain to wait until midweek next week? I don't want you to make the wrong decision here... If not, I understand, and will try and get the two things I mentioned above out tonight/tomorrow, but Crub

is

scum.

[Guardian]

ebwop: definitely try to get it up tomorrow, not possible tonight.

Again, Rishi, I implore you to not vote hastily here.

[Guardian]

Your post where you built the case on Crub was a very long list. It's difficult to see what your main points were. What I would like is for you to summarize what you said in that post in a shorter, most distilled format.

Makes sense, will do.

Also, I would prefer if you drop the appeals to emotion. Just stick to the facts and logic.

This is hard for me to do, as town especially, but I'll try.

1) Yes, the voting record. That's just what caught my eye. That's not super-serious. We all have a pretty bad voting record at this point.

Crub and me/AmeliaLi actually have an almost exact opposite voting record -- Crub has voted almost perfectly, while I was on both mislynches and not on the lynch of scum.

2) You were playing before you received your role PM. You never really addressed this, but this is actually a HUGE point for me. You were very sincere when you said, "I can't see how AmeliaLi is scum" to the point where I actually believed you. Then, when you admitted you were lying later, I figured out that you could be absolutely believable even when you were giving us bald-faced lies. It led me not to believe a single thing you said.

I can play well as scum, that is true, I am not going to refute that. I can lie somewhat convincingly as scum, I think.

That doesn't change the fact that I am town -- this is really a null-tell. Just because I have the

capability

of lying does not meant that I am lying here.

Also, what I have

have

addressed, and what has not been refuted (all Crub did was yell "WIFOM") is that I would have absolutely

no reason

to admit to lying as scum. Lynch all Liars is (albeit a silly one imo) a popular metagame policy -- and seeing as you'd never have suspected that I was lying, I had no reason as scum to let you know that I had been lying.

3) It's not the fact that you actually went third in the claim, but the fact that you wanted to go last and kept insisting on it. And the fact that you can't see why this is suspicious. The stupidity defense doesn't work. I actually think you're a pretty good player and I can't see how a good player wouldn't see this, unless he was lying.

Look -- from my perspective, everyone should want badly to go last whenever there is a mass claim. It only helps your team, whatever that team may be. I

don't

think wanting to go last is a scum-tell, especially considering I wasn't claiming a power role and I haven't.

If I begged to go last and then claimed cop, that might be suspicious. But I wanted to go last so people might

think

I would claim cop, but I claimed town. I'm not playing dumb here, and I'm not going to agree with you just to appease you -- I really don't think it is scummy to want to go near the end. Make sense?

4) The ass-covering post in twilight after I dropped the hammer on YogurtBandit. First, you come down on YogurtBandit pretty hard, making it clear he was going to be lynched. You put him at Lynch -1. I drop the hammer. You immediately jump in and say, "Oh, that might have been bad" which serves no purpose unless you want to plant the seeds of suspicion on me later. The lynch already happened. You can't prevent it. And the only way that you would have already known the results of the lynch? You were Mafia.

Your hammer was very quick. Damn right I was planting seeds of suspicion -- I thought your ~2 hour hammer was suspicious. How did I "make it clear he was going to be lynched"? I have only one vote. I used it -- you decided to hammer. I thought that that might have been too quick, that maybe YB would

finally

contribute. I didn't know what the result would be, and I was hoping to probe you and see what

your

thoughts were.

5) You asked Crub to claim doctor when it was fairly pointless. I think this fairly strongly implies that you felt there was a doctor in the game. You must have suspected that one of us was the doctor and that we'd protect each other. That's why I think you killed somestrangeflea, because you knew there was no way he'd be protected.

I asked Crub if he was a doctor because I would expect a doctor to play differently -- a doctor

should

play differently than a townie. That doesn't imply at all that I expected there to be a doctor, or whatnot -- Crub had just

never

definitively claimed, and I wanted him to before I did my re-read.

6) The fact that you CONSTANTLY feel the need to repeat that you are a townie. You mention it in practically every post. We already know that you are claiming to be a townie. Why do you feel the need to repeat it unless you're trying to convince us it is true? Or maybe you're trying to convince yourself?

I do this as town. When I am near lynch I appeal to emotion. If you doubt me, read the last few pages of 24 mafia. I'll try not to, but when I am close to lynch, especially when I am in fact town, I start yelling at people not to lynch me because I am town...

7) The fact that you constantly cover up your arguments with emotion. You realize that the arguments are not that strong, so you resort to begging. And I'll tell you what - I find it really distracting. Even when Crub criticized you for it, you continue to do it.

Again, I'll try to stop. It's just me. In this game, I think the arguments are pretty strong, so I'll especially try and stop so they shine through.

8) Even in this last post, you say, "I see the case on Crub as being about as strong as or even more strong than the case on me." WTF?! I mean, of course scum would say that! One of you is scum. Your opinions don't matter any more. OBVIOUSLY, Crub will say that you're more suspicious and you'll say that Crub is more suspicious. If you really wanted to try to convince me at this point, you would have said, "Well, I know that Crub looks less suspicious than I do... but blah, blah, blah." This is another example of how you fill your posts with irrelevant arguments to make it SEEM like you are saying a lot, when you're really saying nothing.

I say that because you said you are like 80% favoring a me-lynch right now. I don't think that is a reasonable stance. I obviously "really want to convince you" regardless of my alignment -- I said that because really, when you look at the facts I'll present, I think Crub does not at all look 80/20 less likely to be scum instead me.

You can't just appeal to emotion without any evidence behind it. I don't want your subjective opinion or begging, I WANT THE FACTS in the clear and concise format.

Will try :\.

Tuesday (a week from today) is the day I leave for Gen Con. I'll drop the hammer on one of you then. Sound fair? This has been a short game, so I don't want to drag out this endgame any longer than necessary.

I guess... but I will be away with limited access Wednesday - Monday. That doesn't exactly give a lot of time for back and forth.

[Guardian]

I am not going to respond to any attacks on my play.

You have no need to respond to any attacks on your play. Your alignment is not in question. The only further discussion about your play would be if you wanted advice or whatnot post-game.

However, while letting Crub go first is fine, I would like you to respond to my attacks on your

logic

. If I make a point and you still disagree with me, I'd like to know why.

I would rather see Crub respond to your post, actually, because I think it would reveal a lot about his alignment.

I question how much it will really reveal, but again him going first is fine.


My advice to you Rishi, is hammer when you are sure you are making the most informed decision you possibly could, whenever that time comes -- whether it is before, or after Tuesday.

I earnestly hope I can get my analysis on Crub out tonight, as I will be V/LA for almost a week afterwards. I anticipate being able to do so.

[Guardian]

First a response to Crub's vote-post, and then hopefully an analysis of Crub. I will attempt to demonstrate how he did little to respond to the substance of why I read him as scummy, and that his voting me so quickly was in and of itself scummy:

I cannot see another way out of this other than for us to vote each other and let Rishi decide. There is no major case against Rishi as we have both pointed out. There are a few minor points against him but nothing to make a convincing case out of.

I think that there was legitimate concern Rishi might have been scum. I found his quick hammer day 3 very suspicious, among other things, and I conceded at the end of my argument that there was at least something of a case against him. I wanted to discuss this with you, not have you vote me and hope for the best.

The points you made concerning my play on day 1. All I can say is that I voted Lateralus first because he put someone at L-1 first.

Voting Lateralus in and of itself wasn't scummy.

I changed my vote to HH to try and illicit some sort of response from him. Putting someone at L-1 on page 1 is something that can easily be committed by both newbie scum and newbie town (see lateralus), I wanted some more posts from HH, just so that we could get a better feel for whether he was town or scum.

This doesn't address much of why I think you are scum either.

You say I didn't post from L-2 to Lynch but that was because I wasn't around during the day on that saturday and the rest of the time I was sleeping it was a pretty short period (28 hours).

This too doesn't mean that you aren't scum -- in fact the very short time makes me think you are more likely to be scum. Why? Because you didn't have time to get off of a day one lynch wagon on your partner. I think it makes much more sense that you "accidentally" were on your partners lynch wagon than that you planned to stay there for the whole day. Pointing out this short time period helps my point, not hurts it.

Rishi I hope you are town, and you'll make the right choice.

You know he's town, and voting you is the right choice...

Guardian I'm sorry if you are town, but there is such a slim chance of Rishi being scum compared to you, I hope you'll understand.

vote: Guardian

You can say that with a straight face after a few posts back you try and discard all of my arguments as appeals to emotion?


Rishi, I think this is a strong indicator of Crub being scum -- he didn't want to discuss things with me, and he didn't have much real worry that you were scum.

When I first expressed serious intent to vote Crub, he voted me, and "left it in your hands". He did so because he realized he was going to have a hard time convincing me that you were scum, and an easier time of getting you to hammer me. His vote for me, in the post

immediately following

my posting the results of my re-read, is incredibly scummy to me, and I hope you see it that way too.

If he were town, he would be more worried about the possibility of you being scum, and he would have at least waited for me to respond to him about the case on him, and tried to get me to be less suspicious of him.

Instead, he took the "easy" way out and voted for me -- he made is so that my opinion no longer mattered, and he placed his hopes in that you would make the wrong decision and lynch me.

Looking at this objectively, Rishi, you've got to see how his LACK of suspicion for you and LACK of any attempt to convince me that I was wrong about him being scum is really scummy. He didn't even wait for me to address his response. He didn't wait to see how you took it. He straight up OMGUS voted me, and hoped you would make the wrong decision. I hope I am explaining this clearly and that you can see that.

[Guardian]

Posting in all threads: V/LA until Monday. Good luck without me.
---

I'd love to be able to do the pbpa on Crub tonight -- not sure that it is going to happen. Time just slipped away. I ask that, especially if I don't get the chance to make the case, that I not be hammered until I return. There is still like a 5% chance I'll get to it .

[Guardian]

I'm not even done packing, but I figured I would try this before I got to sleep. I don't think I am going to be able to justice to it, but I want to draw attention to a few things that really made me think Crub is scum.


Post 22 is classically scum. Crub votes for a townie, and FOS's scum. This is a time honored scum-tell for a reason -- Crub distances from HH and gains credit if a wagon on him builds but places his vote elsewhere, and if pressure grows on this new person, even if the person he FOS'd (HH) eventually gets lynched later in the game, the record will show that Crub FOS'd him, making Crub look good.

Crub said that he voted Lateralus first because he wagoned to -2 first. Firstly, -2 isn't that big a problem in C9, and is even less of a problem ins C9 -2. If two people hop on when someone is at lynch -2, it is pretty obvious both are scum. I think it was an overreaction by everyone, and Crub overreacting to his scum buddy doing something Crub thought might be scummy is telling. Secondly, Lateralus doing it first was a really weak reason to vote Lateralus first over Crub. As Crub alluded to later, HH looked more guilty -- Lateralus at least said it was random -- HH claimed to have a good reason for the vote, which was suspicious. In sum, in 22 Crub FOS'd scum and wagoned scum, and this is scummy for many, many reasons.


29 -- minor point, but calling someone opportunistic for a random vote is really, really, really stretching. Opportunism comes when you actually make a case, now when you make a random vote.


39 -- notice how Crub follows Ripley onto HH when pressure doesn't build on Lateralus... As I pointed out, Crub set this up before in 22.


62 -- Crub says there is a huge difference between random first vote and random -2 vote. Again I disagree -- but then, many people in the game "bought" that, so .


65 -- Crub is begging HH to come and defend himself, and urges that we not rush through day one -- while HH is the main focus of suspicion.


105 -- Crub again urges that we not rush -- while HH is at lynch -2. The blatant defense of HH is scummy.



I want to point out a post I missed at this time -- 119 by AmeliaLi. Her computer broke, and she managed to tell people that 10 minutes before the hammer came. I missed that a few times -- but when I look at AmeliaLi's posts in isolation, they really are not that scummy. The voting record is terrible -- but if you look at what resulted in the voting record, I think it is actually excusable -- day one, she didn't get a chance to weigh in, and day 2 SSF and YB foolishly quicklynched -- I don't think Rishi or AmeliaLi were nearly as blameworthy for that. The voting record just sucks, but aside from that, AmeliaLi looks like a very uninterested townie. Read her 5 posts -- I will be surprised if you don't get that vibe also.

Most of them are either cautionary, or content-less.


Day two pretty much didn't happen... on to day three.



172 is a striking view into how much Crub's opinions have changed since Day 3 -- he then thought Rishi had a growing case on him -- now I'm the scum?



192 among other things from Crub is scummy -- he earlier said that he didn't see how we

possibly

could not lynch YB, and then voted YB because "maybe some pressure could help". He wanted as little responsibility as possible for the mislynch -- he wanted it to be not his fault.



I think my activity regarding claiming was very town-like. You disagree. I'm going to have to agree to disagree with you here -- I think you are wrong in finding it scummy, and have provided you with very adequate reasons for this.


Rishi, it is understandable coming from you -- but I don't see where Crub is getting that I was scummy for the claiming -- in 243, he claimed and then said ssf should go next -- which implies he had no problem with the rishi-crub-ssf-me order. Now in 266 he has problems? That is showing internal logic inconsistency -- he is only having a problem with it because he knew that would appeal to Rishi.



I don't agree with Crub's analysis of AmeliaLi in 266 -- her actions were very much noise, not "defense of HH" as he claims. Cub, by asking for us to slow down, was much more acting in defense. And again, considering SSF & YB's quicklynching prowess, I don't think AmeliaLi can be held accountable for day two.


I don't think his reasoning in the rest of this post is that great either. "Considering though he had 2 other opportunities to quick-hammer YB yesterday I can't see Rishi being scum." is a horrible reason to find someone townlike -- if Rishi quickhammered earlier we'd have been even more suspicious of him today -- scum wouldn't have dreamed of quick hammer in that situation. I see this as Crub buddying up to Rishi.


272 Crub tries to categorize my arguments as WIFOM and appeals to emotion -- he is trying to cast me in a scummy light and hardly is being open minded -- he has no reason to be, he knows that he is scum and that I am the easier target. 280 echoes this.



And here we are -- post 295, the post I just responded to. I believe it to be scummy for the reasons I stated above.

Summary:

Crub has consistently been scummy this game:

He tried to distance from HH, but oddly tried to buy his partner time so he wouldn't get lynched, and in all likelihood accidentally stayed on the wagon accidentally -- he very much wanted it to disappear.

Day 2 almost nothing happened as far as we three are concerned.

Day three Crub was singleminded, and wanted YB lynched with few questions asked, yet wanted little responsibility for the lynch.

Day four Crub uses very weak arguments and arguments that appeal to Rishi's preconceived notions of me being scummy, and eventually votes me as soon as it is clear that I am not seriously considering voting Rishi. A townie would not have voted that quick.


Also, I believe that I have played a solidly pro-town game, and while Amelia-Li's voting record is horrible, if you actually look at her posts, not much is there. Crub himself admitted that, and then later contradicted himself in trying to paint AmerliaLi as scummy.


I think that's it... Again I hope I was clear. I entreat that I not be hammered without at least discussion of this -- I think the case on Crub is very convincing -- and what's more, Crub is actually scum!

I hope staying up until 4AM before my flight was not in vain -- later!

[Guardian]

I have some limited access at the hotel. Rishi, I have no problem with you voting Crub while I am away on vacation. Feel free.

If you mislynch me while I am on vacation, I will probably want to strangle you. However, if you feel you are making the best decision you could possibly make, go ahead.... I'm not lying when I say this would be the 4th time I've found scum in endgame and lost...

[Guardian]

*Strangles Rishi*.

I posted to let you know I was here.... Policy lynches (ie lynching me because I appealed to emotion) are bullshit.

damnit, damnit, damnit. Rishi, I hate you. Crub, well done, I guess, but I hate Rishi. Hate.

[Guardian]

Rishi, it is just a game, but I enjoy playing to win...

FYI, in two of the three other games, post-game people were like, "yeah, damn that was dumb of us, that shouldn't have happened, sorry" and the other one the setup was bastardized for the scum. So while I always am looking for ways to improve my play, and I certainly could have played better (ironically by lying more, as town...) I really don't think there was that much more I could have done here. I played very, very townlike in a replacement situation, I correctly identified Crub as scum, and imo my arguments were much better.

YB SSF Lateralus and Rishi all hurt the town here. SSF & YB I am particularly disappointed with, because they both clearly could have done better. I guess I played badly too, by "looking scummy", but I honestly don't see it. DG and Ripley, good job, especially Ripley. Crub, you did very well to win that as scum, congratulations.

Mert, very well modded. Thanks for the fun all .