Open 29 - C9+2 (~GAME OVER~) before 470

[Guardian]

Well, this is difficult. Both of you can't be scum, but both of you are suspicious of me . This doesn't do much to help me differentiate between the two. I am not going to focus on that right now though --

I will focus more on hunting if you like, but I feel that it is more important for me to focus on not getting mislynched right now

.

You know, there's more to finding scum than just pointing the finger back at someone who is accusing you.

I think I made it clear that I wasn't going to be hunting in that post. Do you want me to hunt?

As for my "case" on you Rishi -- the sad thing is if I decided I wanted to make a case on either of you I could do so convincingly. However, when I'm town, I tend to be unsure of myself and I don't like making cases unless I am pretty sure I am

right

. When I am town I sway more, which is what is happening here. I don't feel I am "grasping at straws", though I see how you could see it this way.

You have not made a convincing case on either me or Crub yet.

I am not sure either way yet. Shoot, I don't even have a very good feeling either way yet. Why do you want me to make a case if I am not sure which of you is scum?

If you're really town, then you would give me a good reason to vote Crub. But you haven't given me such a reason.

I don't know that you are town. Do you want me to "make cases" on both you and Crub, in attempts to get one of you to vote the other? I am not sure which of you is scum, and not sure

who

to make a case on.

I agree with you on ssf, though someone could have killed him just for the wifom nature of his being killed. Your pointing out that you thought someone would bring this up makes me wonder if you've spent too much time thinking about this . Other than that this post by you feels townlike though.

I have been spending a lot of time thinking about this. I hope you would to. We're at an important stage in the game.

I hadn't, to be honest -- I've had only about 6 hours to do so, theoretically, and there have been other things on my mind as well. I didn't know ssf would end up dead today; I was quite surprised when it happened.

I don't think somestrangeflea got killed for the WIFOM argument. I think he got killed because someone suspected he was a cop. Then, I figured that someone could use the WIFOM argument to explain why somestrangeflea was killed.

If you say so. I am not sure what to think.

I too wonder why he isn't dead. I don't think that me being "overt"/agressive is a scum tell, that is just me.

Fair enough.

Ok, so here you accept my metagame defense -- that me being aggressive is just me. Then you contradict yourself later...

A-Li's voting patterns are bad. I can't really say much about that. The only thing is that if you look at when she posts and when the hammers happen, she can definitely be seen as uninterested townie -- and I guess that was the case.

A disinterested townie or a scum flying under the radar.

Yeah -- but it can be seen from both sides -- like I said I was quite surprised that I was town .

I keep my options open as town -- I don't know for sure who is scum! As scum, I tend to do the opposite.

If you want to confirm the metagame of me on this, feel free to look at my wiki -- AM mafia day four is a perfect example of me doing what I am doing here as town. Mafia and Werewolves is a great example of how me being single-minded can be indicative of my being scum.

I don't care how you played other games - I care how you are playing THIS game.

Then why accept my metagame defense earlier?

It's very easy to change up your playstyles between games and then point to another game as justification of your role.

That would be great, but it isn't true, at least not for me.

As for me not receiving my role PM, ask the mod about it. I am not sure if he will be willing to confirm it (though I hope so) but I guarantee that he won't say that he sent me my role PM before he said he did.

I am inclined to believe you that you didn't receive your role PM at first. However, you were playing the game without knowing your role. You seemed sincere when you were doing that, and you seem sincere now. I think this actually works against you. It shows that you can seem pro-town even when you are lying through your teeth. It's a good trait to have, but it makes me less inclined to believe you right now.

OK, that makes sense if you think about it at the first level -- but think more carefully about my revealing that I had lied. Revealing that I had lied will

definitely

not serve to make myself look more townlike, and a mafia member would have 0 incentive to reveal such information.

Me insisting on going last in the cop claim yesterday -- I already explained this. And I didn't go last, even when Crub said "SSF, go". I went third, because that was what we agreed on.

You went third after I pushed for it. I was trying to get you to go FIRST and you refused.

I refused because both Crub and SSF had agreed I go last...

You were not being a team player during that claiming exercise

I disagree strongly, I went third to ameliorate you and YB, even when Crub and ssf were fine with my going last.

- you were merely looking at things from your own perspective. That is what makes me suspicious.

Look -- I can only be 100% sure of my own alignment. I know I am town. I wanted a townie claiming last. Therefore, with the information I had, I wanted to go last. Does that not make sense??

I am begging for a town win here. Whichever of you is town, I implore you not to vote for me, as a quickhammer will ensue. At the very least, give us a few pages -- if you end up voting me, I will understand, but if you vote me without giving me a chance to explain myself you will be added to YB & SSF in clutching defeat from the jaws of victory.

I will not vote for you quickly. If Crub votes for you, I will not hammer without some discussion from you.

I'll believe it when I see it...

But you have to set a reasonable length of time. I say that, if Crub votes for you, I will give you 48 hours to convince me not to hammer. If that sounds too short, let me know.

It sounds short to me, at least at the rate we are going -- I would prefer a few pages, not a few days. If Crub votes me and you actually don't hammer, I'd like you to give me a few pages because then I will know for certain what my goal is in the game -- to convince you I am not scum -- because I will know for certain that you are town. Right now, I don't really feel good about making a case on either of you, as I don't have a particularly strong indication one way or the other as to who is town.

Rishi, if you are town, you should feel bad if your play here results in a loss, regardless of me being the more "obvious" choice. I really am not going to be pleased if you are town and you quicklynch me and then go "oh well, Crub outplayed us." I also disagree that "all the signs are there" and that you would be choosing to ignore them. I don't think my play in this game is very indicative of me being scum, at all!

Your opinion on your own play hardly proves anything. Heh. In my opinion, I am a handsome and sexy man. It doesn't make it true.

I am telling you what my opinion is so that you might see the reasoning behind it...

I will feel bad if I lose, but I will feel a lot worse if I lose to you than if I lose to Crub.

Losing to me is not a possibility unless you are scum.

Again, I implore whichever of you is town not to vote me quickly. At the very least, for a page or so, don't vote me

first

. It is incredibly ironic how well I can build a case when I know who needs to be lynched -- and if someone votes and the other player doesn't hammer, then that player will be guaranteed to be town.

I said I wouldn't hasty vote.

Again, I will believe this when I see it.

Any questions you have, please ask. If you are town and put a hasty vote on me, you are going on my

bad

list.

Aww, man. If I am on your bad list, does that mean I won't get a Christmas card and won't be invited to your birthday party?

Pretty much. Oh, and I won't particularly look for playing in games with you, which would be a shame, because up to this point you have seemed to be a very competent player, and a nice guy to boot.

That kind of threat didn't work on me in 2nd grade and it doesn't work now. This is a game. For example, if one of my friends absolutely sucks at chess, that doesn't mean he's no longer my friend.

But it does mean that you don't really want to play chess with him any more if you want a good game of chess .

Don't toss out-of-game threats at me for something that happens in a game.

See above.


So um, what do you want from me? You seem to be twisting my arguments a bit; in a few places you really seem to be just blatantly missing what I am trying to say.

I say that I haven't made a case because I am not sure what to think yet -- and you reply that I haven't made a convincing case yet. There seems to be a strong disconnect there.

It is interesting to note that the only thing you agree with me on is when I find Crub's being alive suspicious.


I hit preview and saw Crub's post -- you both want me to make good cases on each other even though I am not convinced?? You both are asking me to be rather "fake" in that regard, and it puzzles me....

[Crub]

you both want me to make good cases on each other even though I am not convinced?? You both are asking me to be rather "fake" in that regard, and it puzzles me....

I'm not asking you to be fake. I'm asking you to give me a reason not to think your scum other than wifom and appealing to emotion. For me that must also include a reasonable case on Rishi, because if I have to choose between you and him right now you're ahead by a mile.

[Guardian]

I think my last three posts have been much more than WIFOM and appeals to emotion. I have pointed to concrete evidence of how my day three play has obvious town motivations, and pointed to metagame reasons as to why my play here is inconsistent with my being scum.



Look at this from my perspective -- you want me to make a case on both of you, when I know for sure that one of you isn't scum? I will try and do it and be objective about it if this is what you *both* want (since one of you is town and wants this), but it may be hard for me to come up with great cases since after multiple re-reads I myself am not convinced either way.

[Rishi]

I think I made it clear that I wasn't going to be hunting in that post. Do you want me to hunt?

The best defense is a good offense. Go ahead and make your case on me and Crub. Crub and I both agree you are the most suspicious, so I think your best bet would be to convince Crub and me to vote each other.

I didn't know ssf would end up dead today; I was quite surprised when it happened.

All three of us said this. One of us is lying.

Ok, so here you accept my metagame defense -- that me being aggressive is just me. Then you contradict yourself later...

It's not a contradiction. You're always aggressive. I'll accept that. But if you want me to look at the finer points of your play to differentiate how you act as scum and how you act as town, then that's easy to change. You can't change your overall play style, but you can change specifics.

OK, that makes sense if you think about it at the first level -- but think more carefully about my revealing that I had lied. Revealing that I had lied will

definitely

not serve to make myself look more townlike, and a mafia member would have 0 incentive to reveal such information.

That's plausible. Okay, I'll accept that.

I refused because both Crub and SSF had agreed I go last...

Yeah, but you could have alleviated any suspicion by offering to go second. I had already offered to go first. You did not consider, for even a second, that this decision would not have had lasting repercussions? You made your decision. Live with it.

By the way, I am curious why Crub was okay with you going last. Crub?

Look -- I can only be 100% sure of my own alignment. I know I am town. I wanted a townie claiming last. Therefore, with the information I had, I wanted to go last. Does that not make sense??

No, it does not make sense. Stick yourself in someone else's shoes for a second. Does any other player have any proof that you are town? You have to learn to see things from someone else's perspective. Seriously, this is just an argument that is full of holes. You honestly can't see how another person could see it as suspicious that you wanted to go last? Just admit it was a stupid play. I will be more inclined to trust someone who can admit to a mistake rather than someone who keeps touting the same fallacious reasoning.

Pretty much. Oh, and I won't particularly look for playing in games with you, which would be a shame, because up to this point you have seemed to be a very competent player, and a nice guy to boot.

I am a nice guy. But I am putting pressure on you to see how you defend. Don't take my in-game behavior as indicative of my out-of-game personality.

But it does mean that you don't really want to play chess with him any more if you want a good game of chess .

Point taken. I will not make a hasty decision here. I know you said you'll believe it when you see it. But, if you treat what I say with skepticism, how can you expect me to take everything you say at face value? Again, put yourself in someone else's shoes for once.

So um, what do you want from me? You seem to be twisting my arguments a bit; in a few places you really seem to be just blatantly missing what I am trying to say.

If I am misunderstanding you, then explain yourself. I am giving you the chance. No voting just yet.

I say that I haven't made a case because I am not sure what to think yet -- and you reply that I haven't made a convincing case yet. There seems to be a strong disconnect there.

So, you don't have to just say, "Here is who I think is scum." Just go ahead and build cases against Crub and me. You don't have to come to a definite conclusion.

It is interesting to note that the only thing you agree with me on is when I find Crub's being alive suspicious.

It is somewhat suspicious, but no one was sure whether or not there was a doctor. Maybe someone was going for a secondary target because they weren't sure if there was a doctor? I will say that somestrangeflea was extremely unlikely to be protected by a doctor, making him a guaranteed kill. That's another possibility on why he was killed.

[Crub]

I too wonder why he isn't dead. I don't think that me being "overt"/agressive is a scum tell, that is just me.

Fair enough.

Ok, so here you accept my metagame defense -- that me being aggressive is just me. Then you contradict yourself later...

Originally Rishi was saying that you being "Overt" was a good thing. The fact that I wasn't in his opinion made me more scummy. He's just agreeing with you because you're agreeing with him Nothing to do with metagaming you.

A-Li's voting patterns are bad. I can't really say much about that. The only thing is that if you look at when she posts and when the hammers happen, she can definitely be seen as uninterested townie -- and I guess that was the case.

A disinterested townie or a scum flying under the radar.

Yeah -- but it can be seen from both sides -- like I said I was quite surprised that I was town .

I don't think that saying you were surprised at being town is helping your cause.

I keep my options open as town -- I don't know for sure who is scum! As scum, I tend to do the opposite.

If you want to confirm the metagame of me on this, feel free to look at my wiki -- AM mafia day four is a perfect example of me doing what I am doing here as town. Mafia and Werewolves is a great example of how me being single-minded can be indicative of my being scum.

I don't care how you played other games - I care how you are playing THIS game.

Then why accept my metagame defense earlier?

I don't think he did. Also I don't think using metagame as a defense is plausible.

It's very easy to change up your playstyles between games and then point to another game as justification of your role.

That would be great, but it isn't true, at least not for me.

See above. Metagame as a defense that you're using isn't plausible.

As for me not receiving my role PM, ask the mod about it. I am not sure if he will be willing to confirm it (though I hope so) but I guarantee that he won't say that he sent me my role PM before he said he did.

I am inclined to believe you that you didn't receive your role PM at first. However, you were playing the game without knowing your role. You seemed sincere when you were doing that, and you seem sincere now. I think this actually works against you. It shows that you can seem pro-town even when you are lying through your teeth. It's a good trait to have, but it makes me less inclined to believe you right now.

OK, that makes sense if you think about it at the first level -- but think more carefully about my revealing that I had lied. Revealing that I had lied will

definitely

not serve to make myself look more townlike, and a mafia member would have 0 incentive to reveal such information.

WIFOM

Me insisting on going last in the cop claim yesterday -- I already explained this. And I didn't go last, even when Crub said "SSF, go". I went third, because that was what we agreed on.

You went third after I pushed for it. I was trying to get you to go FIRST and you refused.

I refused because both Crub and SSF had agreed I go last...

You were not being a team player during that claiming exercise

I disagree strongly, I went third to ameliorate you and YB, even when Crub and ssf were fine with my going last.

- you were merely looking at things from your own perspective. That is what makes me suspicious.

Look -- I can only be 100% sure of my own alignment. I know I am town. I wanted a townie claiming last. Therefore, with the information I had, I wanted to go last. Does that not make sense??

It makes perfect sense if we we're 100% sure of your alignment but we're not. This too is WIFOM, you would want to go last no matter what alignment you were.

I am begging for a town win here. Whichever of you is town, I implore you not to vote for me, as a quickhammer will ensue. At the very least, give us a few pages -- if you end up voting me, I will understand, but if you vote me without giving me a chance to explain myself you will be added to YB & SSF in clutching defeat from the jaws of victory.

I will not vote for you quickly. If Crub votes for you, I will not hammer without some discussion from you.

I'll believe it when I see it...

But you have to set a reasonable length of time. I say that, if Crub votes for you, I will give you 48 hours to convince me not to hammer. If that sounds too short, let me know.

It sounds short to me, at least at the rate we are going -- I would prefer a few pages, not a few days. If Crub votes me and you actually don't hammer, I'd like you to give me a few pages because then I will know for certain what my goal is in the game -- to convince you I am not scum -- because I will know for certain that you are town. Right now, I don't really feel good about making a case on either of you, as I don't have a particularly strong indication one way or the other as to who is town.

Rishi, if you are town, you should feel bad if your play here results in a loss, regardless of me being the more "obvious" choice. I really am not going to be pleased if you are town and you quicklynch me and then go "oh well, Crub outplayed us." I also disagree that "all the signs are there" and that you would be choosing to ignore them. I don't think my play in this game is very indicative of me being scum, at all!

Your opinion on your own play hardly proves anything. Heh. In my opinion, I am a handsome and sexy man. It doesn't make it true.

I am telling you what my opinion is so that you might see the reasoning behind it...

I will feel bad if I lose, but I will feel a lot worse if I lose to you than if I lose to Crub.

Losing to me is not a possibility unless you are scum.

Again, I implore whichever of you is town not to vote me quickly. At the very least, for a page or so, don't vote me

first

. It is incredibly ironic how well I can build a case when I know who needs to be lynched -- and if someone votes and the other player doesn't hammer, then that player will be guaranteed to be town.

I said I wouldn't hasty vote.

Again, I will believe this when I see it.

Any questions you have, please ask. If you are town and put a hasty vote on me, you are going on my

bad

list.

Aww, man. If I am on your bad list, does that mean I won't get a Christmas card and won't be invited to your birthday party?

Pretty much. Oh, and I won't particularly look for playing in games with you, which would be a shame, because up to this point you have seemed to be a very competent player, and a nice guy to boot.

That kind of threat didn't work on me in 2nd grade and it doesn't work now. This is a game. For example, if one of my friends absolutely sucks at chess, that doesn't mean he's no longer my friend.

But it does mean that you don't really want to play chess with him any more if you want a good game of chess .

Don't toss out-of-game threats at me for something that happens in a game.

See above.

This is one huge appeal to emotion.

So um, what do you want from me? You seem to be twisting my arguments a bit; in a few places you really seem to be just blatantly missing what I am trying to say.

I think theres a bit of that going on both ways.

I say that I haven't made a case because I am not sure what to think yet -- and you reply that I haven't made a convincing case yet. There seems to be a strong disconnect there.

It is interesting to note that the only thing you agree with me on is when I find Crub's being alive suspicious.

I hit preview and saw Crub's post -- you both want me to make good cases on each other even though I am not convinced?? You both are asking me to be rather "fake" in that regard, and it puzzles me....

[Crub]

I lost my train of thought half way through that post. I was supposed to be showing how most of your arguments have either been WIFOM or appealing to emotion.

Using metagame as a defense I find WIFOM. If you know there is a discernible difference between your town game and your scum game you'd be trying to make your scum game more like your town game.

[Guardian]

Hey -- you guys have both given me quite a bit to comment on. I tip my hat to both of you -- the townie for waiting, and the scum for looking so darned townlike! I will respond directly to both of your posts as a whole tomorrow.

For now, I will say that ASAP (I owe two games attention before this one, sadly) I will go through the thread and make my cases on each of you. One of them will be a waste, but I'm willing to do it to try and win this. I will do the cases in separate posts, and in the spirit of looking at this from your shoes and not mine, in each I will assume that the person I am not making the case on is townie (since that would literally have to be the case). If this method is unacceptable to either of you let me know.

[Rishi]

Sounds fine to me, Guardian.

[Guardian]

As promised...

The best defense is a good offense. Go ahead and make your case on me and Crub. Crub and I both agree you are the most suspicious, so I think your best bet would be to convince Crub and me to vote each other.

That just sounds wrong to me -- like you both "think I am scum", and you both want me to try and convince you to vote each other. I don't understand why the townie of you wants me to do this, but I shall.

All three of us said this. One of us is lying.

True.

It's not a contradiction. You're always aggressive. I'll accept that. But if you want me to look at the finer points of your play to differentiate how you act as scum and how you act as town, then that's easy to change.

I don't think "indecisive as town, decisive as scum" is a finer point of my play.

You can't change your overall play style, but you can change specifics.

See above.

That's plausible. Okay, I'll accept that.

As Crub points out later, this is a bit WIFOM, but yeah, I wasn't thinking of this at the time, but to me that is a moderately strong "town tell"

Yeah, but you could have alleviated any suspicion by offering to go second. I had already offered to go first. You did not consider, for even a second, that this decision would not have had lasting repercussions?

At the time, my thoughts were like "well, besides this people aren't finding me suspicious, 3/4 agree with the me going last plan, but whatever, I'll go third." If I had known going 2nd would have helped to the extent it would have at this point, I surely would have.

You made your decision. Live with it.

I didn't realize it would have this implications as far as you are concerned...

By the way, I am curious why Crub was okay with you going last. Crub?

Crub?

No, it does not make sense. Stick yourself in someone else's shoes for a second. Does any other player have any proof that you are town? You have to learn to see things from someone else's perspective. Seriously, this is just an argument that is full of holes. You honestly can't see how another person could see it as suspicious that you wanted to go last?

I think everyone in this situation *should* have wanted to go last. Put yourself in your own shoes -- why didn't you want to go last?? The only benefit of going first as town is so people think you are townlike by cooperating -- almost all the benefits come when you go last.

Just admit it was a stupid play. I will be more inclined to trust someone who can admit to a mistake rather than someone who keeps touting the same fallacious reasoning.

I would love to "admit a mistake" but I can only see it being a mistake as far as this specific game is concerned. It would be disingenuous of me to say "oh my bad, I made a mistake, you are right" because I don't believe that to be true.

I am a nice guy. But I am putting pressure on you to see how you defend. Don't take my in-game behavior as indicative of my out-of-game personality.

Putting pressure on me has nothing to do with you being a nice guy or not. Sorry for any confusion. :hug:

Point taken. I will not make a hasty decision here.

THANK you. You have struck me as incredibly pro-town today...

I know you said you'll believe it when you see it. But, if you treat what I say with skepticism, how can you expect me to take everything you say at face value? Again, put yourself in someone else's shoes for once.

Will do...

If I am misunderstanding you, then explain yourself. I am giving you the chance. No voting just yet.

Ok, nothing is particularly significant, it just seemed to be a general pattern... if I see anything of great import on re-read I will point it out.

So, you don't have to just say, "Here is who I think is scum." Just go ahead and build cases against Crub and me. You don't have to come to a definite conclusion.

Another good point. Will do. And I suspect doing the cases will aid me in reaching this definite conclusion. I am beginning to think it will lead me to Crubscum, but I will try and do both cases objectively and see.

I guess asking me to do these cases is really indirectly asking me to get a better opinion of who is scum and who isn't, so I now have some internal motivation for doing so.

It is somewhat suspicious, but no one was sure whether or not there was a doctor. Maybe someone was going for a secondary target because they weren't sure if there was a doctor? I will say that somestrangeflea was extremely unlikely to be protected by a doctor, making him a guaranteed kill. That's another possibility on why he was killed.

True. I am getting such a town feeling from these recent posts of yours. .

[Guardian]

I too wonder why he isn't dead. I don't think that me being "overt"/agressive is a scum tell, that is just me.

Fair enough.

Ok, so here you accept my metagame defense -- that me being aggressive is just me. Then you contradict yourself later...

Originally Rishi was saying that you being "Overt" was a good thing. The fact that I wasn't in his opinion made me more scummy. He's just agreeing with you because you're agreeing with him Nothing to do with metagaming you.

Huh?

A-Li's voting patterns are bad. I can't really say much about that. The only thing is that if you look at when she posts and when the hammers happen, she can definitely be seen as uninterested townie -- and I guess that was the case.

A disinterested townie or a scum flying under the radar.

Yeah -- but it can be seen from both sides -- like I said I was quite surprised that I was town .

I don't think that saying you were surprised at being town is helping your cause.

Hmm? It was honesty. Townies don't lie. I don't see why telling the truth about my pre-PM play was a bad decision, or why it is making me look scummy.

I keep my options open as town -- I don't know for sure who is scum! As scum, I tend to do the opposite.

If you want to confirm the metagame of me on this, feel free to look at my wiki -- AM mafia day four is a perfect example of me doing what I am doing here as town. Mafia and Werewolves is a great example of how me being single-minded can be indicative of my being scum.

I don't care how you played other games - I care how you are playing THIS game.

Then why accept my metagame defense earlier?

I don't think he did. Also I don't think using metagame as a defense is plausible.

I do think metagame defenses can be plausible, and I think that accepting that I am always aggressive (without any evidence) is just as much accepting a metagame defense as accepting that I am indecisive as town and decisive as scum.

As for me not receiving my role PM, ask the mod about it. I am not sure if he will be willing to confirm it (though I hope so) but I guarantee that he won't say that he sent me my role PM before he said he did.

I am inclined to believe you that you didn't receive your role PM at first. However, you were playing the game without knowing your role. You seemed sincere when you were doing that, and you seem sincere now. I think this actually works against you. It shows that you can seem pro-town even when you are lying through your teeth. It's a good trait to have, but it makes me less inclined to believe you right now.

OK, that makes sense if you think about it at the first level -- but think more carefully about my revealing that I had lied. Revealing that I had lied will

definitely

not serve to make myself look more townlike, and a mafia member would have 0 incentive to reveal such information.

WIFOM

It is somewhat WIFOM -- but it is something as scum that I would ONLY do if I thought it would result in me looking townlike.

I did it as town because I thought having the truth out there was a better idea, even though it might look bad to be lying. I literally would have no motivation to do that as scum.

Me insisting on going last in the cop claim yesterday -- I already explained this. And I didn't go last, even when Crub said "SSF, go". I went third, because that was what we agreed on.

You went third after I pushed for it. I was trying to get you to go FIRST and you refused.

I refused because both Crub and SSF had agreed I go last...

You were not being a team player during that claiming exercise

I disagree strongly, I went third to ameliorate you and YB, even when Crub and ssf were fine with my going last.

- you were merely looking at things from your own perspective. That is what makes me suspicious.

Look -- I can only be 100% sure of my own alignment. I know I am town. I wanted a townie claiming last. Therefore, with the information I had, I wanted to go last. Does that not make sense??

It makes perfect sense if we we're 100% sure of your alignment but we're not. This too is WIFOM, you would want to go last no matter what alignment you were.

OK, so how is me wanting to go last evidence of me being scum?

I am begging for a town win here. Whichever of you is town, I implore you not to vote for me, as a quickhammer will ensue. At the very least, give us a few pages -- if you end up voting me, I will understand, but if you vote me without giving me a chance to explain myself you will be added to YB & SSF in clutching defeat from the jaws of victory.

I will not vote for you quickly. If Crub votes for you, I will not hammer without some discussion from you.

I'll believe it when I see it...

But you have to set a reasonable length of time. I say that, if Crub votes for you, I will give you 48 hours to convince me not to hammer. If that sounds too short, let me know.

It sounds short to me, at least at the rate we are going -- I would prefer a few pages, not a few days. If Crub votes me and you actually don't hammer, I'd like you to give me a few pages because then I will know for certain what my goal is in the game -- to convince you I am not scum -- because I will know for certain that you are town. Right now, I don't really feel good about making a case on either of you, as I don't have a particularly strong indication one way or the other as to who is town.

Rishi, if you are town, you should feel bad if your play here results in a loss, regardless of me being the more "obvious" choice. I really am not going to be pleased if you are town and you quicklynch me and then go "oh well, Crub outplayed us." I also disagree that "all the signs are there" and that you would be choosing to ignore them. I don't think my play in this game is very indicative of me being scum, at all!

Your opinion on your own play hardly proves anything. Heh. In my opinion, I am a handsome and sexy man. It doesn't make it true.

I am telling you what my opinion is so that you might see the reasoning behind it...

I will feel bad if I lose, but I will feel a lot worse if I lose to you than if I lose to Crub.

Losing to me is not a possibility unless you are scum.

Again, I implore whichever of you is town not to vote me quickly. At the very least, for a page or so, don't vote me

first

. It is incredibly ironic how well I can build a case when I know who needs to be lynched -- and if someone votes and the other player doesn't hammer, then that player will be guaranteed to be town.

I said I wouldn't hasty vote.

Again, I will believe this when I see it.

Any questions you have, please ask. If you are town and put a hasty vote on me, you are going on my

bad

list.

Aww, man. If I am on your bad list, does that mean I won't get a Christmas card and won't be invited to your birthday party?

Pretty much. Oh, and I won't particularly look for playing in games with you, which would be a shame, because up to this point you have seemed to be a very competent player, and a nice guy to boot.

That kind of threat didn't work on me in 2nd grade and it doesn't work now. This is a game. For example, if one of my friends absolutely sucks at chess, that doesn't mean he's no longer my friend.

But it does mean that you don't really want to play chess with him any more if you want a good game of chess .

Don't toss out-of-game threats at me for something that happens in a game.

See above.

This is one huge appeal to emotion.

I think that is a broad sweeping generalization that is in no way entirely accurate.

So um, what do you want from me? You seem to be twisting my arguments a bit; in a few places you really seem to be just blatantly missing what I am trying to say.

I think theres a bit of that going on both ways.

Yeah -- no communication is perfect.

I lost my train of thought half way through that post.

I

was supposed

to be showing how most of your arguments have either been WIFOM or appealing to emotion

.

Woah, I

really

don't like that! The whole point of your post was to disregard my arguments and attack my credibility? Shouldn't you have been trying to understand my arguments and judge them and label them appropriately? That sentence makes me think that you had a preconceived notion and just applied it as you saw fit.

Using metagame as a defense I find WIFOM. If you know there is a discernible difference between your town game and your scum game you'd be trying to make your scum game more like your town game.

Trying, sure. Succeeding? Not in this game, in my case. If you've read AM mafia, you will see how my back and forth endgame (and in this case near endgame) behavior is classic me-town.

[Guardian]

So, there you have them, my direct responses to your previous posts. Now, I will go back and try as objectively as possible to analyze each of you -- in one sweep assuming Crub is vanilla and Rishi is scum, and one assuming Rishi is vanilla and Crub is scum. I'll then try and compare the two and see which makes the more sense. Rishi has claimed vanilla -- Crub if you somehow are going to claim doctor, now is the time.

I owe one more game a thorough re-read before I do this, so give me some leeway timewise, but expect it around the weekend, maybe before.

From the posts of today alone,

FoS: Crub

. You seem much more eager to just get me lynched, and less interested in listening to what I have to say than Rishi. I feel somewhat strongly about this, and in fact am quite tempted to vote you and see if Rishi hammers, but I really don't want to lose this game so I am going to go through the effort, be as objective as possible, and see what inferences I can make.

Later.

[Crub]

I am vanilla town. There would be no need for anyone to claim any role now. The fact that you suggest I should claim I am actually quite perplexed by.

The reason why I think we should be lynching you is that I really just cannot see Rishi as scum.

Huh?

When Rishi said you were being more "Overt" I didn't take that as him saying anything negative about you. Just the way I read the original statement.

Hmm? It was honesty. Townies don't lie. I don't see why telling the truth about my pre-PM play was a bad decision, or why it is making me look scummy.

You stating it, is just seeming wifom to me "Why would I say this if I were scum?"

By the way, I am curious why Crub was okay with you going last. Crub?

Sorry I missed this in your post. To be quite honest I thought Guardian wanted to go last because he was the cop. I thought this just because he made such a big deal about going last, and if there was a cop, last would be the best place for that person to claim.

It is somewhat WIFOM -- but it is something as scum that I would ONLY do if I thought it would result in me looking townlike.
I did it as town because I thought having the truth out there was a better idea, even though it might look bad to be lying. I literally would have no motivation to do that as scum.

Anyone going last and claiming vanilla yesterday would have definitely looked more townie, in my opinion. This is why I think it is WIFOM to say that you wanted to go last and therefore you are more likely town.

I think that is a broad sweeping generalization that is in no way entirely accurate.

Which of these statements in your opinion are not appealing to emotion?

I am begging for a town win here. Whichever of you is town, I implore you not to vote for me, as a quickhammer will ensue.

Rishi, if you are town, you should feel bad if your play here results in a loss, regardless of me being the more "obvious" choice. I really am not going to be pleased if you are town and you quicklynch me and then go "oh well, Crub outplayed us."

Again, I implore whichever of you is town not to vote me quickly.

Any questions you have, please ask. If you are town and put a hasty vote on me, you are going on my bad list.

Woah, I really don't like that! The whole point of your post was to disregard my arguments and attack my credibility? Shouldn't you have been trying to understand my arguments and judge them and label them appropriately? That sentence makes me think that you had a preconceived notion and just applied it as you saw fit.

You said :

I think my last three posts have been much more than WIFOM and appeals to emotion.

and I was

supposed

to be showing you why I thought that your last 3 posts hadn't been much more than WIFOM and appeals to emotion. I said

supposed

because after I re-read my post it seemed only half written.

I'm interested in what you've got to say I'm sorry if I seem eager to lynch you, it's just that when I did what you're going to do, ie. read the thread a few times thinking Guardiscum/Rishitown and Rishiscum/Guarditown, I just could not see the chance rishiscum being a very high option.

[Rishi]

Sorry... very busy this week. Once again, not lurking. I will respond at some point today.

[Rishi]

That just sounds wrong to me -- like you both "think I am scum", and you both want me to try and convince you to vote each other. I don't understand why the townie of you wants me to do this, but I shall.

How about you think of it as just giving your thoughts on each player? Point out what you find suspicious and what you think seems town-like about the player and leave it up to us to decide? Surely you've been in games where you've been asked to give your thoughts on certain players?

The only benefit of going first as town is so people think you are townlike by cooperating -- almost all the benefits come when you go last.

Making people think you're townlike is a HUGE FRIGGIN' BENEFIT. Now, do you see my point?

I guess asking me to do these cases is really indirectly asking me to get a better opinion of who is scum and who isn't, so I now have some internal motivation for doing so.

Right.

[Rishi]

I am vanilla town. There would be no need for anyone to claim any role now. The fact that you suggest I should claim I am actually quite perplexed by.

I agree. The only thing a doctor claim would do now is create confusion. We would waste a lot of time wondering whether it was a fake claim.

If there is a doctor, he didn't successfully protect anyone in this game, so he has no reliable information and there won't be another night phase. So, for all intents and purposes, the doctor is now a vanilla townie.

[Mert]

Votecount

Not Voting

(3):

Crub, Guardian, Rishi

With three alive, it's two to lynch!

[Crub]

Just checking in, to make sure that you're still in the middle of your Crubscum/Rishitown and Rishiscum/Crubtown analysis Guardian?

[Guardian]

Just checking in, to make sure that you're still in the middle of your Crubscum/Rishitown and Rishiscum/Crubtown analysis Guardian?

I will get to it this weekend as promised -- there is that one game ahead of this on the priority list, and it is deadlined (non-retractable) for tonight.

[Crub]

Cool Cool Forgot that you said you wouldn't get around to it till the weekend

[Guardian]

OK, so like I said, I'm gonna read through making assumptions, and see which seems more plausible...

Before I start, the one thing I want to explain -- I asked Crub if he was claiming doctor as I would assume a doctor would play differently from a townie -- to not draw attention to themselves for NK. Since all three of us have claimed vanilla, that is how I am reading the game.



This re-read I am going through assuming Crub is mafia and Rishi is town.

---

16, Rishi makes a vote because of annoyedness -- makes sense as town, I've seen town do that before, and not scum do that.

18, Rishi removes vote because of Lynch -2, also plausible

22, Crub votes town and FOS's scum when both committed equal acts. Scum are more likely to do this -- they can distance from their partner yet not contribute to lynching them.

29, Crub backs down somewhat from suspicion on Lateralus and doesn't even mention HH. Makes sense again.

33, Crub points out that DG didn't know what she was doing -- makes sense as mafia, throwing suspicion around. No tell either way.

39, Crub unvotes Lateralus and votes HH after Ripley did so and provides the following reason: "The fact that HH just quoted lateralus (post 24) and couldn't come up with his own reason seems more scummy to me". I don't get that, or buy it. This smells like busing.

40, With two votes on HH, Rish advises that we back down from a fast lynch. That looks bad for Rish-town.

44, Crub says "so let's argue pointlessly?" This post strikes me the wrong way definitely. He is like "well, there is nothing to argue about really." Argue why HH is scum. Argue some other case. Don't ask a pointless question like that.

47, Rishi wants to hear from lateralus and HH, very reasonable...

52, Rishi finds HH suspicious because he has his vote still on SSF - an important distinction.

62,63 are reasonable for crub-town or crub-scum

65, Crub wants HH's input. Again, reasonable.

72 feels like Rishi is directing Lateralus to not get mislynched. It would feel really really scumm if Lateralus was scum, but he is town, so null tell

74 is reasonable for crub-town

77, Rishi is more disturbed by HH but hasn't voted yet.

86, Rishi has very reasonable thoughts on why he finds HH scummy

88, Crub talks about forcing a claim out of HH. He wants to hear from the lurkers, too.

89, Rishi wants to hear more from HH.

105, After Ripley unvotes, Crub asks that we calm down and wait...

114, Rishi points out HH's hypocrisy.

116,117,120 REALLY look like Rishi is town and trying to figure out HH's alignment. He then hammers HH. Scum don't often hammer their partners. Rishi seems really town to me.

Notable is that Crub doesn't post while the wagon moves from lynch -2 to lynch. I think Crub accidentally was on his partner's lynch wagon, and Rishi hammered.


126 by Rishi is odd though -- and wrong. One of his scum partners did vote for him. And why assume that one didn't? His attack on Lateralus makes a lot of sense though.

128 is a great point by Ripley, that scum jump on bandwagons, not start them. Rishi jumped on the end of the bandwagon, and didn't start it, to get himself a good voting record.

156 strikes me as really town by Rishi

159 by Rishi is also greatly town.

168 does too...

172 is really pro-town by Crub though. GAHHH. This is why I can't make up my mind.

192 seems like basless pressure by Crub though.


Eh, I don't really feel like continuing to do post by post at this point, as it is the current day, and we have all adressed it.



I think Crub is scum though. Rishi has just been way too obviously town in this analysis, and it makes far too much sense for Rishi to be town that Crub to be town.

Crub, I want to hear from you. Your voting record is too perfect. You never really claimed vanilla townie until like just now. Also, you slink on the HH wagon without a lot of reasons, and I think you stayed on accidentally or just to look town. Also, Rishi's interaction with HH near the end of day 1 felt like HH talking to a townie not like HH talking to a scum partner.

Give me a convincing reason not to, or a convincing reason to vote for Rishi, or I will probably vote for you in a bit, Crub.


There is a case that Rishi could be scum. His hammer was there just to leave a voting record, and his voting pattern is really bad besides that. I just don't think he is scum though. His posts seem like they are coming from a townie.

Crub, again, convince me otherwise, or I may very well vote you.

[Crub]

I cannot see another way out of this other than for us to vote each other and let Rishi decide. There is no major case against Rishi as we have both pointed out. There are a few minor points against him but nothing to make a convincing case out of.

The points you made concerning my play on day 1. All I can say is that I voted Lateralus first because he put someone at L-1 first.

I changed my vote to HH to try and illicit some sort of response from him. Putting someone at L-1 on page 1 is something that can easily be committed by both newbie scum and newbie town (see lateralus), I wanted some more posts from HH, just so that we could get a better feel for whether he was town or scum.

You say I didn't post from L-2 to Lynch but that was because I wasn't around during the day on that saturday and the rest of the time I was sleeping it was a pretty short period (28 hours).

Rishi I hope you are town, and you'll make the right choice. Guardian I'm sorry if you are town, but there is such a slim chance of Rishi being scum compared to you, I hope you'll understand.

vote: Guardian

[Rishi]

No hammer.

I'm town.

I'll admit that Guardian made a decent case against Crub, but I don't know how much it helped. Before, I was 90% sure that Guardian was scum. Now I'm only 80% sure.

As I promised, I will give Guardian some time to convince me to vote for Crub.

[Rishi]

Happy scumday, Mert.

And, by giving Guardian some time, I mean ten minutes. Go.

But, seriously folks, I would like to finish this game out before I leave for Gen Con. Realistically, I'll probably place a vote Friday.

Crub, for now you don't need to convince me about Guardian. I think the case against him is strong. However, Crub, I do expect you to defend yourself against whatever Guardian says.

If I start to change my mind, I'll let you guys know.

[Mert]

Special Scumday Votecount

Guardian

(1):

Crub

Not Voting

(2):

Guardian, Rishi

ZWEI!

[Crub]

Yep sure thing Rishi. I tried to address everything that he mentioned in his previous post is there anything else you want me to address?