Mini 474 - Bergamo Bump-Off (Game Over!)

[vampyrusddg]

greetings all

vote: muerrto

why havn't we lynched him yet?

[vampyrusddg]

vampyrusddg, do you happen to be a vampaneze?

you think I'm going to say yes to that with a hunter about?

>.>

<.<

When did this become all about me? I thought we were hunting scum here not vampires!

/runs for door

[vampyrusddg]

greetings all

vote: muerrto

why havn't we lynched him yet?

No, no, no. We're not starting that here too

spoil sport

unvote: muerrto, Vote: Vampaneesehunter

because <insert random generic comment based on players posts here>

Hjallti, if it makes things easier just abbreviate the names

WeyounsLastClone can be WLC

VampaneseHunter can be VH

And I'll be VD

...

actualy bad idea, lets think of something else

[vampyrusddg]

I think you'll agree that he is trying to start a bandwagon to lynch Murreto.

sounds like fun, where do I apply to join?

unvote:VH, vote: Hjallti

for getting what the DDG part of my handle means far too close for my liking...

Are you stalking me? wouldn't be too far a trip in RL

[vampyrusddg]

Are you stalking me? wouldn't be too far a trip in RL

depends where you are in the UK. Nearly once a month I'm a weekend in Bruges, and if you are in Dover or Hull there is a direct boat from Bruges. If your in Belfast, it wouldn't be that fast...

Cornwall along the south coast (that little sticky out bit in the south-west that time forgot) They have got more into the 21st century since I moved back here though they have a peoples army now (the cornish independence army - their latest act of rebellion, they burnt a barn down while testing incendary devices, phoned the fire brigade and apoligised to them and the local paper...)

hmmm...

unvote:Hijallti, vote: Malchonn

Malc where are you?

[vampyrusddg]

*watches the tumbleweeds roll by*

hmm....

unvote: Malchonn

Vamp, oh enlightener of the unenlightened, we need some logic.

sorry man, all sold out, would some conventional wisdom or monty pythons quotes do instead

Hjallti: no it's the little sticky out bit below wales (but to my shame I am part welsh...)

so far I don't see much to be suspicious of, some people trying to apply early pressure. Khel is catching my eye a bit because he seems to have pulled us out of the random stage far too quickly, but nothing I'd vote him for yet, but definitly IGMEOY. Death sauce and SSF have also been jumping on things early (sauce on WLC & SSF on sauce). WLC, Hjallti, and Malc have all been fairly quiet.

[vampyrusddg]

So wait a minute, why's it sad to be Welsh again?

Well, theres said to be an affinity between welshmen and sheep... Perpetuated by 1001 crude jokes.

sorry Sauce, I meant Omen not you (that'll teach me to post when I've been awake for 24 hours), was refering to the WLC is jumpy posts back on page 2.

[vampyrusddg]

I never said it was a bad thing Khel, I just always want the random phase to go on longer, arpund 10 pages is good to my eye

I just always keep my eye on anyone who pulls out of it while I'm still having fun

I'll concur with the generalbad vibe from omen for saying people shouldn't defend themselves, defense against accusation forms up most of this game, without it theres less conversation, less talking and hasty lynches on less information made on deadlines favours the scum. Full stop.

vote: Death Omen

[vampyrusddg]

. Full stop.

Damn British and their confusing punctuation names >_<

the langauge barrier can be a problem actually, I had an American girlfriend once, a long time ago. Long story short things started to go downhill and we both knew it was over, one night she says she wants have a long talk about "us". So we talked and things got heated when I made an inappropriate comment and she said "Thats it, it's over! Your just too immature. Period."
To which I replied, "Hehe, you said period."

sorry, perfect oppurtunity to use that joke, couldn't let it pass. Onto the more serious stuff.

1) You voted Malchonn earlier because he wasn't contributing, right? Now that you've unvoted, should we assume you're happier with his level of contribution?

No, but Malc also plays on the other site with me and Muerrto (and our mod) and he's almost always quiet, especialy on day one, in fact while we're at it

mod:

could we get a prod on Malchonn to make sure he's awake

2) You play on another site with Muerrto, yes? Would you agree with the description of his style of play that he gives in #75?

Yes, but I've yet to play in a game with him as scum, so while his playstyle is the same as usual that by no means garuntees that he's pro-town or stops me from keeping an eye on him (and vice-versa, last finished game he got me lynched when I was playing scum)

3) If death_omen is scum, who do you think his partners might be?

I have very little idea, but I'd probably start poking and keeping an eye on those who've kept their dealings with him short and inconsequential first

4) Who's more suspicious to you right now: Muerrto or Khel?

hmm, toughie. If I had to lynch one of them (i.e. deadline situation, both at L-1 and only my vote to stop it going to no lynch) I'd have to say Khel, but I woudl be tempted to let it go to a no lynch. My poke at Khel was to see if I got a knee jerk OMGUS reaction, people doing that to a minor IGMEOY or FOS is a major way I track scum, I prefer to play subtly while Muerrto blunders about with the battle axe, it's one of the reasons we work so well together. Muerrto can be a very valuble player while he's clashing heads with people, and while he's doing that he's more likely to reveal any scuminess himself so I wouldn't lynch him without seeing something major. When he clams up is when I'll really start to worry

P.S. I don't mind being lynched for that joke, it is terrible

[vampyrusddg]

just a quick post to let people know I'm out until sunday afternoon (GMT+1) but I will post up when I'm back from this family reunion, which may require large amounts of alcohol to get through

[vampyrusddg]

I am here, just watching the back and forth at the moment

Khel - the general practice is if someone needs to be replaced overnight it delays the start of the next day no matter what their role, this way the transition gives away nothing, the mod doesn't give away freebies. Lynching lurkers accomplishes very little even if they are scum, you find very little evidence to lead you into the next day of possible connections. Your starting to look worse and worse to me, your calling for us to end day one far too quickly, hell another game I'm playing in with 12 players has go on so far for 32 pages, and we're still not close to a lynch!

For now I'll settle for a

FOS: Khelvaster

[vampyrusddg]

first off all, welcome to the game Nelly

Secondly sorry to everyone else, RLs been hitting me hard, so to relieve some stress I had a huge go at my new boss and told him exactly what I thought of him.

So now I have more free time on my hands, and am back to temporary work for the next month before I move I'll be working on full PBP later on

Vampyrysddg

Honestly the one player in this game who strikes me as townie, the reasoning behind that being that he has flip flopped on his votes so many times that this would be a clear way to draw attention to yourself which is something Mafia does not like to do. His first vote for Muerrto was casted after Plessiez cast his first vote for Muerrto, his second vote for Vampaneze hunter was a bandwagon vote. His votes there after were for Hjallti, Malchonn & Death Omen. I noticed that he never cast a vote for someone who hadn’t already had a vote on them. My thoughts on that were simply, this is either a brilliant strategy by a Mafia member or a indecisive strategy by a townie, my opinion lying towards the latter obviously.

1)Each time you changed your vote were you truly convinced at that moment that the person you were changing your vote for was scum or was it simply a way to apply pressure?

I havn't been sure about anyone I've voted so far, I do really enjoy my random stages, a lot of good comes out of them, the scum feel relaxed and think they can do almost anything, and later this normaly comes back to haunt hem, pulling order out of chaos is my speciality Applying pressure is subjective, if the person feels their under pressure then their more likely to make a slip, however a few choice words nomaly achieves a lot more than a vote without a reason, and is more likely to get the scum jumping - i.e.

Massive FoS: Nelly

You are sounding entirely too sympathetic towards Death_Omen. I can understand if maybe you aren't totally convinced he is scum. Not having any suspicion, however, just strikes me as strange.

just for your initial impressions post #231, for playing devil's advocate a little and poining a finger a khelvaster, though no vote or FOS, your srongest comment was this I believe

I am not casting my vote as of yet because I want to see how things progress now that I am active but I will say that if I had to cast right now it would be Kheluster…

now that strikes me as very scummy, over the top OMGUS and goes on to include you in a conspiracy based on 4 or 5 posts from 2 different players...

unvote:DO, Vote:Khelvaster

Sorry if I got a bit side tracked there

2) If a person became -1 would you be willing to hammer that person and end day one?

I'm always willing to do the dirty work if nescecary, although I would never speed hammer someone, no matter how sure I am of them being scum. Always give them a last chance to dop a team mate in it by trying to distance themselves fom he rest of the goons before they go.

3) In other Mafia games do you flip flop as much or is it just this game in particular?

Flip flopping is a bit of a strong term in this case, all were random or jokes except for the DO vote

[vampyrusddg]

wait, are you saying you investigated khel Night 0 and got a guilty?

[vampyrusddg]

wait, are you saying you investigated khel Night 0 and got a guilty?

EBWOP, nm just noticed you said in that post there hadn't been any night actions.

in that case you cannot be sure Khel is scum, and we know that, the only way we can find out now is if we've got a doc onboard and he believes your RC

[vampyrusddg]

I'm willing to buy the cop claim for the moment, there hasn't been a counter claim although it's doubtful the real cop would counter claim at this point if it is false, but DO would have given him one less person to investigate. A khel lynch would sit best with me, but I'd maybe go with a sauce lynch as well, while I'm not happy with VH's play altogether I don't think I'd go along with that wagon at the moment

On the timing of DOs RC it was a little early, but I can see why, there was a few of the people swinging between khel & DO which were still on Khel (myself included) but this could easily come back to haunt him if theres a counter claim later on

[vampyrusddg]

In my opinion the most likely scenario:

The mafia have a roleblocker and decided to RB DO because all eyes were on him, while offing someone else they thought was a lurking power role.

Nelly regardless of wether Khel had mixed up his roles or not you hammered him without giving him a chance to RC, follow this by your immediate jumping on Malchonn because "He may be the godfather", if all that had gone on here was that then DO would have got an innocent on him, not a failure to investigate. That would make the godfather stick out just as badly under investigation as any other scum, add to that some initial deduction based on pure WIFOM:

Death Sauce placed 3 votes...
Weyounslastclone ... Muerrto ... Death Omen

he had no more idea who the scum were than anybody else, how would his votes help us pin anyone down? The scum decided who died, but would they off someone who had pointed fingers at them, or used that to make other players look worse?

vote: Nelly632

[vampyrusddg]

WIFOM = Wine In Front Of Me

refers to any circular logic especialy in a defense. i.e. in your argument there hammering him and then saying "would I stick my neck out like that it I were scum?" it leads back on itself, you say scum wouldn't take a risk like that but then wouldn't that be perfect cover if you are scum?

[vampyrusddg]

Okay, heres my take on the situation, and I'm convinced I'm right.

The Mafia have a roleblocker, they knew that if there is a doc in the game he would be protecting DO (no reason for them not to) so they neuter our cop while offing someone else, and lose the risk of wasting their NK.

What has me so sure about this is if DO was scum why would he bother with saying he got a fail? It would make much more sense to come out and say he got an innocent on someone he knew was town, forgoe the NK so it looks like he's got protection before they satrt NKing other people on N2. The scum knew we still had our eyes on him and we could well end up lynching our cop ourselves, and until then they can continue blocking him night after night while picking off everyone else.

Bottom line, we need to get that roleblocker. until then we've effectively lost 3 power roles, I'm hoping there is a doc so if we do catch him we've got some investigations, but if not we're going to have to do this the old fashioned way.

[vampyrusddg]

Nelly, we can't weed out the roleblocker, but we have to hit scum and hope we get lucky and catch the right one, thats all there is too it, there are certain signs I'll be looking out for.

Unless we get a counter-claim I'm looking on DO as confirmed (as can be without his death) town, this narrows down the field a tiny amount, after our mislynch and the NK that leaves:

Hjallti: No good read from me yet, slightly scummy but nothing major

SeraphicMirth: Has talked the townie talk but I'm yet to see any solid deduction from her yet

Malchonn: His usual fairly quiet self, havn't seen anything wrong yet, but theres not much to pick at which is suspicious in itself

Muerrto: Doing his usual job, as long as he's doing that even if he's scum he's helping us.

Plessiez: A very good player, Walking the townie walk, but could be deadly if one of the scum. I'm thinking town but keeping my eye on him

SSF: Although not the quietest in the game his posts have been generaly quite short and just dealing with one point, a game style that always bugs me because it makes it vey had to get a read on someone.

VH: if I had to guess at this second who the (more than likely) 3 scum are VH would be in there

Nelly: I'm suspicious of him for already stated reasons, I'm not going over those again

Me: Hey! It's your job to figure out what you think of me, you want me to do everything for you?

DO, sanity doesn't even come into this, wether sane or not you'd have got a result back instead of a fail, we'll cross that bridge if we manage to get you un-neutered before your, the towns, or the scums demise

[vampyrusddg]

uh DO, you could have made it up if you were scum with a fake RC of cop, thats what he was saying, but to my mind it would go against the best tactic when your lying about something, "keep it simple" the more complex a lie the more easy it is to see through, scum DO would have come out with an innocent on someone or bussed one of his buddies to get some breathing room, town DO came out and was honest, or at least thats how I see it.

While I do believe your town, I don't see your reasons for your suspicions of Malc, apart from him being quiet, in which case you should be going after a couple of others as well including myself who have been just about as vocal, or at least have simlar levels of actual content taking away the fluff. Jumping on him every time he posts isn't going to help, just because he's not taking your RC at face value doesn't mean he's scum.

[vampyrusddg]

I'm not suspicious of him, as I've already explained.

If he was scum with a fake RC the scum could easily have passed up their NK to make it look like he had doc protection, he could have given us an innocent on someone or bussed someone to give himself some credibility and then misled the town at a vital point later on, it would have made no sense for scum DO to come out and say he got a fail. The scum were hoping he'd be lynched by us when he failed to come up with the goods, satisfied that his ability is useless anyway while they continualy RB him freeing up their NK from posibly failing because of doc protection.

[vampyrusddg]

Ah I see! But all that you think could be what he wants us to think, but he actually be scum. I hope you understand that! I'm just exploring all of the possibilities!

yes, bu they only had so much time to communicate, scum 1 sends message to others, 8 hours later the others have replied and put their thoughts in the pot, 12 hours later scum 1 reads them and suggests a NK target, by this point quite a chunk of their time has gone, it's hard to form up a wonderfuly complex plan and look at the possibilities while seeking reassurance and support from the other scum. Bottom line scum plans don't get that complex, they keep it simple as it gives them less to trip up over if they come under fire.

[vampyrusddg]

So I still think DO's claim is straight unless someone forgot to check him last night. Which would just be a horribly bad play if there's another cop.

I disagree with this Muerrto, I wouldn't have investigated him last night, and would have been glad of it, especialy with 2 other power roles offed in the night, I would assume he's scum and leave it on a back burner to see if there was something linking him with other players and investigate them, trying to cath as much scum as possible with one swoop.

But it is time to get off this subject we've chewed it over and I don't think we're going to change each others minds here and there doesn't seem to be a majority to lynch DO unless there is a counter claim, which with the amount of time passing is less and less likely.

So to answer your question, I'll take i one step further and go for my hall of scum:

Nelly632
SeraphicMirth
SSF or VH

apart from Nelly I've gone with my gut on the rest, something in my mind is seperating SM from SSF and VH to put her in 2nd, not sure exactly what but I will have a re-read and see what I find

[vampyrusddg]

Interesting take. Not saying I agree but interesting. I'd rather investigate DO so I know if I can trust him or not, as evidenced by my night0 investigation of you in our last game. I like knowing whether I can take someone's arguments at face value.

Maybe, but the big difference here is I had no RC at that point, you were just going for someone you'd like to know was town or could be a hard scum to catch with a one-shot ability

So to answer your question, I'll take i one step further and go for my hall of scum:

Nelly632
SeraphicMirth
SSF or VH

Again interesting. I still say I think Seraph and Pless are the most town players so far but that could just be scum acting very town(WIFOM). As for Nelly I'm still ready to lynch him and mantain my vote on him. His explanation for the hammer was bad. If it was a mistake it was unfortunately a damning one IMO.

Agreed, my votes unlikely to budge here but I'm nowhere near ready to end the day. We need some more discussion here.

[vampyrusddg]

No I believe it because he came up with the fail, I see no reason for scum to do that when they've got all the tools to have the town eating out of the hand and calling them saviour, bypassing the NK to make it look like the doc's got his back. The scum blocking instead of NKing someone who's a likely target for protection is far more likely.

[vampyrusddg]

No I believe it because he came up with the fail, I see no reason for scum to do that (...)

I see your point here but you can WIFOM that away of course. It might buy scum a day more somehow, but then again simpler scenarios would give the same or better return.

No I find this is way too loaded to be proper WIFOM even though the logic is circular, as I mentioned before the time constraints on the scum communicating without asking for an extension to let us know their planning something complex, and the amount of extra lies it gives them to slip up over, weigh that against having the shining star of the town as your double agent and a simple plan...

[vampyrusddg]

*grumbles* whaddya wake me up for?

Well heres he sitution as I see it - if we lynch Nelly and he is town we're either in LYLO tommorow or very close to it. However his actions are scummy and his attitude is unhelpful, we're never going to be sure of him without an investigation so if we don't lynch him this whole situation is more than likely to just come around again, so my vote stays.

I'm going back to sleep now...

[vampyrusddg]

unvote

mod:

any chance of an extension, that took even longer than usual

[vampyrusddg]

Welcome onboard aimee, good to see you again

I'll hopefuly go back over the day 2 stuff later on tonight and see what I can dig up

[vampyrusddg]

Okay, I'm liking VH at the moment (and not in a good way) his flip-flopping on Nelly's wagon, jumping off it when it looked like it was headed for the hanging tree and then pleading to be absolved if he hammered. I think I can see where my suspicion of SeraphicMirth was coming from now, and it's pretty unfounded, just the unwillingness to put pressure on Nelly.

FOS: Vampenezehunter

[vampyrusddg]

In fact seeing as I may not be able to make it on that many times between now and the new deadline I'll put my money where my mouth is

vote: vampenezehunter

[vampyrusddg]

Just a quick check in to say I'll be back online properly next Wednesday (hopefuly)

I may be able to get on again before the house is conneected, but I'm leaving my vote where it is because I feel VH is our best bet at the moment and I don't want to hit the deadline without a lynch.

If theres no further extension and I don't make it back to public acsess again before (5 or 6 mile walk from the new place ) I'll see you all on day 3

[vampyrusddg]

I'm back properly now, interweb plumbed in and all

I'll be having a proper re-read and see what I dig up later

[vampyrusddg]

Okay, after having a thorough re-read My top suspects are (in order):

Hjallti: There was some major distancing going on between him and Malc, which carried on smoothly after the transition to Aimee, as though it had been a running plan all along (transfered PMs between malc-Hjallti could have passed this plan along to Aimee. The whole Malc/D_O argument did seem to drop away though) Also the willingness to jump in and bus the godfather (VH) to make him look clean when it became clear that VH could be in for the lynch at the deadline.

SSF: seems to have avoided almost all arguments through the game, sitting on the fence for a lot of it and swaying with the general crowd when needed, good cover if he's the SK.

Ples/Karen: Nothing really solid but more gut feeling than anything else. Ples was a hell of a good player and his play seemed too good almost. Seemed almost like he was breadcrumbing something on day 1, if I were scum I would have probably picked him off Night 1 rather than DS whose role came as a suprise to me. Why didn't the scum hit him instead?

General comments on the current situation:

Our last remaining scum is obviously also the roleblocker, giving him a RB and NK each night now but with 2 scum down we do have a little breathing room for a mistake,this could change quickly though factoring in the SK on the loose. We're in a slightly disadvantaged (town-wise) C9 situation power wise but have the advantage of 29 pages of posts to scour through. We can afford one mislynch (leaving 2 town, 1 SK, 1 mafia, presuming the 2 killers don't hit each other) which one we hit first doesn't really matter, once the mafia RBer is gone DOs investigation won't find the SK

in conclusion:

vote: Hjallti

[vampyrusddg]

Im not so sure if Hjati is scum because unlinke some he actually bussed the Godfather when he didnt really have to. He could have just not voted for him.

to me thats what added to my suspicion, it was pretty clear that there weren't many other good cases for lynches other than VH's, most of the town looking at the deadline would want to see a lynch happen so we had at least a shot at catching scum, when this became obvious he jumped on so he could look cleaner going into today, could be just town with bad timing but I'm betting it's not.

[vampyrusddg]

Hmm, seems the night wasn't as kind to us as the last one, the kill choices seem very strange to me, but they worked out well for the anti-town players

after some brief thought I think the towns done for, at best we've got a 33.3% chance of winning tonight

if we lynch wrong!

and 0% chance of winning

if we lynch scum/SK

scenario 1: we lynch town, leaving 1 scum, 1 SK, 1 town. the 2 killers choose their targets. both hit each other, town wins. 1 hits town, 1 hits the other, survivor wins. both hit town, draw game (deadlock tommorow, both kill each other that night)

scenario 2: we lynch SK or scum. Surviving killer kills town leaving 1 town, 1 killer. Game over, surviving killer wins.

So in short we have to lynch town to have a chance a winning. Unless the other town player has one hell of a trick up their sleeves, which with cop, doc, vig and inventor gone I'm presuming they don't

vote: vampyrusddg

[vampyrusddg]

I can't see anything else, no lynching provides an alternative, but I think it would be a mistake, more chance us being in a one killer, one town situation tommorow (remaining killer wins) barring Nelly coming up with something feel free to drop the hammer on me, unless Nelly wants to do it himself, everything else is just our anti-town roles posturing for the NKs

[vampyrusddg]

Well then I am wrong lol, I am not going to hammer a townie unless he tells me too so SST if you want to hammer him now I am sure it wont be a problem with them because they are the ones with the votes on Vampy.

Not so eager to drop the hammer after last time Nelly?

only playing, seriously I'm happy with whoever hammers me, I think I know who is what now, but I'm not going to risk influencing any NK decisions.

I believe in a normal set up that a mafia roleblocker would have the choice of who to block and who to NK, the NK is a choice of the mafia as a whole (even though that is only one person in this situation) and is therefore seperate from his blocking ability which is personal, I've never seen any description of that role which would lead me to believe that if they RB'd they wouldn't be able to send in the NK choice as well for the mafia, although that would be putting all your eggs in one basket if someone in turn RB'd them if there were more than just one scum.

I can't think of any other combination of roles which would give us the results we have at the moment wihout some serious changes to the standard roles which would probably put this outside the "normal" status

[vampyrusddg]

Great game all, I had you pegged at the end Meurrto, but by then all I could hope was other people had figured you out and get myself lynched to provide a small chance for the town. Though I was guessing you were the SK rather than the mafia RBer.

Seems you had a bit of luck with Aimee taking out SM on the night she investigated you, that could have gone very differently if you'd hit elsewhere.