New York 180 (Endgame)

[MathBlade]

Guts are awesome. I hear every person has one. They help with digestion. Think in the thread.

[dragonspawn]

OK.

So if we have a Cop it's still alive.

It should investigate vikingfan.

Does anyone know if someone claimed Cop already?

If so, judging by the fact that person isn't dead, maybe the dead Doc protected that Cop player, and could mean we're looking at 3 killing factions. The unique part of vf's claim rings a bit with that sentiment.

vf claimed he was told he was attacked and protected, ever heard of this before?

He's the only one who claimed cop so far. He said he got no result last night.

Those unique slots can also include mechanics.

This includes original ones not in the wiki.

Let's think on this for a minute. Why would VF, if Scum, go through the trouble of making an incredibly dubious-sounding claim when he could go the easy route? Do you remember when I claimed Sensor and how everyone reacted in spite of my honesty? Let's not forget the lessons of the past so quickly (I often tell this to myself).

The guy who claimed Doc, sans the RB and our Doc, may be killed Day 2. That much is obvious.

Completely different claim not to mention we were assuming two scum and not one scum and a sk.

You weren't going to survive to day two anyway. Trust me.

So you're saying we wait one more day before we lynch Viking? Not sure in see the point. But I understand the reasoning.

[Ellie]

Right. And vikingfan doesn't hint at who he's going to check, so the scum have to worry it will be them.

[SilverWolf]

Guts are awesome. I hear every person has one. They help with digestion. Think in the thread.

ABR-made some genuine sounding posts today that made me think he really believes vf is fakeclaiming scum-I don't know why he lied about his tracker claim but apparently that's something he does all the time as either alignment. I don't really see anything scummy here.

vf-may be scum, he was highly scumread and then claimed cop before he got to L-1, then comes back with a very complex claim that isn't really all that believable, OTOH I wonder why anyone fakeclaiming would do such an elaborate claim which makes me think there might be some truth to it, especially after all the other set-up discussion was had, his flip would tell us a lot about those pushing him right now, I think

If I had to pick, he'd be the scum. BUT, I would rather not lynch him because IF he's being honest, I don't want to lynch the cop. SO, I say we wait until tomorrow to see if he survives the night and what his results are and exactly how he receives them and anything else he can tell us to show he's being honest. We give him suggestions on who to check at the end of the day, and he doesn't say who it will be.

So I'm not really up for a lynch on either of these two today and instead, after my V/LA is up:

-ISO pisskop for interactions

-wagon analysis on both wagons

-ISO's and read on people I'm wondering about

-vote

[dragonspawn]

Do we really believe we have three separate attackers going on?

[dragonspawn]

Guts are awesome. I hear every person has one. They help with digestion. Think in the thread.

ABR-made some genuine sounding posts today that made me think he really believes vf is fakeclaiming scum-I don't know why he lied about his tracker claim but apparently that's something he does all the time as either alignment. I don't really see anything scummy here.

vf-may be scum, he was highly scumread and then claimed cop before he got to L-1, then comes back with a very complex claim that isn't really all that believable, OTOH I wonder why anyone fakeclaiming would do such an elaborate claim which makes me think there might be some truth to it, especially after all the other set-up discussion was had, his flip would tell us a lot about those pushing him right now, I think

If I had to pick, he'd be the scum. BUT, I would rather not lynch him because IF he's being honest, I don't want to lynch the cop. SO, I say we wait until tomorrow to see if he survives the night and what his results are and exactly how he receives them and anything else he can tell us to show he's being honest. We give him suggestions on who to check at the end of the day, and he doesn't say who it will be.

So I'm not really up for a lynch on either of these two today and instead, after my V/LA is up:

-ISO pisskop for interactions

-wagon analysis on both wagons

-ISO's and read on people I'm wondering about

-vote

Not to mention pk was defending him.

[SilverWolf]

Not to mention pk was defending him.

pisskop defended him a ton but I wonder if scum would defend each other like that knowing it would come back if associations were done?

[MathBlade]

Guts are awesome. I hear every person has one. They help with digestion. Think in the thread.

ABR-made some genuine sounding posts today that made me think he really believes vf is fakeclaiming scum-I don't know why he lied about his tracker claim but apparently that's something he does all the time as either alignment. I don't really see anything scummy here.

vf-may be scum, he was highly scumread and then claimed cop before he got to L-1, then comes back with a very complex claim that isn't really all that believable, OTOH I wonder why anyone fakeclaiming would do such an elaborate claim which makes me think there might be some truth to it, especially after all the other set-up discussion was had, his flip would tell us a lot about those pushing him right now, I think

If I had to pick, he'd be the scum. BUT, I would rather not lynch him because IF he's being honest, I don't want to lynch the cop. SO, I say we wait until tomorrow to see if he survives the night and what his results are and exactly how he receives them and anything else he can tell us to show he's being honest. We give him suggestions on who to check at the end of the day, and he doesn't say who it will be.

So I'm not really up for a lynch on either of these two today and instead, after my V/LA is up:

-ISO pisskop for interactions

-wagon analysis on both wagons

-ISO's and read on people I'm wondering about

-vote

Noted. Thank you for your opinion. However I think not lynching in these two is a mistake.

I need a big stick to make people say opinions yo. Troll stick.

[SilverWolf]

Noted. Thank you for your opinion. However I think not lynching in these two is a mistake.

I need a big stick to make people say opinions yo. Troll stick.

Which one do you think we should lynch? I'm open to listening to reasons.

[ika]

Apparently i forgot to PM orginz that day has begun in my mass send. I have sent him a PM but it will not count as a prod

[Nobody Special]

MathBlade: I have a big stick you can borrow, if you need.

I would love to lynch vikingfan, for reasons already enumerated.

[Ellie]

Why today?

[MathBlade]

I think at this point we need to lynch Viking Fan.

Reason being if they are town they aren't likely to live very much longer to provide needed results. I also have significant doubts about their claim.
Secondly a doctor is dead. While possible there may be two docs I don't want to bet on us getting results from VF tomorrow. That bet is just bad.
Thirdly I have seen an assocation in D1 between NJ and VF. If VF is scum then we may be able to get NJ afterward pretty damn quick.

Now let's look at the converse and assume VF is town. Then ABR's play with the fake claim and how he immediately entered suggested a strategy of wanting to lynch VF out of the gate. His entire posting isn't really talking about anyone else and it suggests a certain confidence. One I'd expect him to put his own life behind. Therefore if VF is town then ABR very likely scum.

Therefore lynching VF from my POV will net us 1 scum or 2 in two rounds. It's protown to do as we can't put off lynching VF for results that may never be true or that we may never see.

Yay big sticks are awesome

So logically my head says VikingFan. My gut says ABR. Hence I'm down for both.

[SilverWolf]

I think at this point we need to lynch Viking Fan.

Reason being if they are town they aren't likely to live very much longer to provide needed results. I also have significant doubts about their claim.
Secondly a doctor is dead. While possible there may be two docs I don't want to bet on us getting results from VF tomorrow. That bet is just bad.
Thirdly I have seen an assocation in D1 between NJ and VF. If VF is scum then we may be able to get NJ afterward pretty damn quick.

Now let's look at the converse and assume VF is town. Then ABR's play with the fake claim and how he immediately entered suggested a strategy of wanting to lynch VF out of the gate. His entire posting isn't really talking about anyone else and it suggests a certain confidence. One I'd expect him to put his own life behind. Therefore if VF is town then ABR very likely scum.

Therefore lynching VF from my POV will net us 1 scum or 2 in two rounds. It's protown to do as we can't put off lynching VF for results that may never be true or that we may never see.

Yay big sticks are awesome

So logically my head says VikingFan. My gut says ABR. Hence I'm down for both.

This makes sense and a lynch of one of these two will provide us much needed information. I would pick vikingfan over ABR if we go this route because it will also give us info. on all the people pushing him right now. I was going to suggest saving it for tomorrow if necessary but due to the info. that can be obtained and the distraction this will be until it is resolved, today is fine.

I'm going to do an vikingfan and pisskop ISO first just to make sure.

[Ellie]

Town VF likely dies tonight. If so, we avoid wasting a lynch. If not, he shares his result and we lynch him tomorrow. Then he either flips town or we get someone confirmed off his result

[Ellie]

should say: Then he either flips scum or we get someone confirmed off his result

[dragonspawn]

I think at this point we need to lynch Viking Fan.

Reason being if they are town they aren't likely to live very much longer to provide needed results. I also have significant doubts about their claim.
Secondly a doctor is dead. While possible there may be two docs I don't want to bet on us getting results from VF tomorrow. That bet is just bad.
Thirdly I have seen an assocation in D1 between NJ and VF. If VF is scum then we may be able to get NJ afterward pretty damn quick.

Now let's look at the converse and assume VF is town. Then ABR's play with the fake claim and how he immediately entered suggested a strategy of wanting to lynch VF out of the gate. His entire posting isn't really talking about anyone else and it suggests a certain confidence. One I'd expect him to put his own life behind. Therefore if VF is town then ABR very likely scum.

Therefore lynching VF from my POV will net us 1 scum or 2 in two rounds. It's protown to do as we can't put off lynching VF for results that may never be true or that we may never see.

Yay big sticks are awesome

So logically my head says VikingFan. My gut says ABR. Hence I'm down for both.

So both pk and Viking have an association with nj?

We definitely lynched the wrong one yesterday.

[Shinobi]

Town VF likely dies tonight. If so, we avoid wasting a lynch. If not, he shares his result and we lynch him tomorrow. Then he either flips town or we get someone confirmed off his result

This.

We aren't lynching the cop claim because the situation likely resolves itself in due time.

[FA_Q2]

vf-may be scum, he was highly scumread and then claimed cop before he got to L-1, then comes back with a very complex claim that isn't really all that believable, OTOH I wonder why anyone fakeclaiming would do such an elaborate claim which makes me think there might be some truth to it, especially after all the other set-up discussion was had, his flip would tell us a lot about those pushing him right now, I think

It is worth noting that his claim essentially uses elements from roles that were flipped. Claim the doc and the roleblocker were both targeting him...

I would not call it all that elaborate - he was using information that was already provided AND verified roles in the game. The only real tell here was that protection is not generally revealed on this cite.


Read the claim as though that were not the case - as though protection is usually reveals - and then ask yourself if the claim is believable or not? Ask if it is complex or not?

I think it is similar to what I might have claimed if I were fake claiming. The roleblock allows for another day without having to give an actual read and the doc targeting him gives him an easy out for the fact that he is still around. He just didn't do enough research about the site meta on this topic. Caught in a lie - I don't see a reason to keep scum alive for another day when the lie has been caught. The arguments tomorrow are not going to change either - just a few less townies to push.

[Shinobi]

I find this whole VF situation unconstructive. I'm afraid to let it go on for another day because people are so tunneled that it seems like killing him is the best use of our time just to get people to consider alternative targets.

Ftr, I don't think it's a high percentage scum lynch specifically because the whole situation is so shady (roleblocker and doctor both die making his alignment irrelevant because the whole situation resolves itself in time) but I don't see how people would consider alternative targets at this point in time. Meh.

[SilverWolf]

I agree completely. I've thought about it and it really is the best way to go.

VOTE: vikingfan

[MathBlade]

Spoiler: Viking Fan quotes with NJ or Naked Jogger in them

How do you know NakedJogger is a town PR or is town at all?

We don't. Point being, we've had a lot of claims already today. I did ask already if people wanted NJ to claim and the consensues seemed to be no.

Think of it as probability. If we lynch klingon, we know which way she's going to flip (either townie or scum). If we go for NJ, anything is possible.

That said, both of them are playing very scummy at the moment and NJ is not remotely participating and tries throwing suspicion on Grib, which is useless at this point in the game.

And I concur with Ozgin. Right now, klingon is L-1. Can you NJ people really get several more people over to your wagon in time? A no-lynch is horrible at this point in the game, and quite frankly, we need fewer players so the game is easier to follow on future days.

I don't believe in lynching for the sake of lynching especially day one. 9.9 times out of 10, day one lynches in my small experience have been of town. However, barring that the night kill should provide data as well so its not as if the lynch going through in itself would provide some spectacular game breaking insight.

You vote people to pressure them, to reaction, or test the waters but you don't vote people because everyone else's doing it. The lynch vote should be your strongly held belief that this person should die for their crimes against the town.

I concur with you. I was simply pointing out the mathematics of it. There are a lot of reasons klingon should be the lynch today and NJ has played pretty scummy as well. I'm still sticking with klingon at the moment though. TBH, I wasn't seeing so much in the NJ wagon until his recent play with Grib, etc.

Spoiler: VF reasoning likely paired with NJ

Viking Fan puts NJ as a we don't know but on Klingon we do, trying to say eh..."Don't lynch NJ they might be a power role" when there is no indication. At the minimum this implies VF wants NJ alive.
Then Viking Fan in the second post I quoted says where they are pointing out mathematics of it but includes no numbers. Being a math person...math is numbers. Then said NJ was scummy but then didn't see the wagon's merit. If someone is scummy their wagon has merit.

Spoiler: pisskop posts with NJ/Naked Jogger

Good luck to all in the storms, stay safe!

Aye, thanks. Wasn't so bad until it came time to shovel out cars. :/

My fixation with the tso wagon was two fold. My suspicion of Shinobi and his aggressive towards tso off the bat and the fact that it was gaining traction quickly.
as for house, his posts have a town vibe.

So your interest with the TSO wagon was that you thought scum were on it because of how quickly it grew?
And can you specify this 'town vibe' from House?

Hey, Pisskop. You seem to be asking a lot of questions and not doing much with them. What's your view on recent events and the game state as of now?

I'm playing how I am used to playing on my site. D1 is resolved through the gathering of information instead of social cues. It can all be referred to later and it helps cut down on loose fluff.
I think ABR's claim is going to have to be confirmed later, but I think I believe viking's.
. Elusive is slightly scummy, and he is voting for my other scumread, House. I'm confused why Boon is not offering up content when people are starting to scumread him, and still flipflop on Dragon.
On the townier side, I think Acryon recent posts are good, NJ is hunting, and TSO has a town-mindset.

Yeah, when I have time I'll also be looking into Pisskop who've I've barely noticed just like I've barely noticed FA.
I really, really don't like not noticing people and those two are the biggest offenders. They need much, much closer scrutiny and this is just a note to myself to do that.

We've had several interactions, all of which resulted in you brushing me off and implying you need to 'investigate me later'. 264, 313, 320, 413, 511, and its followup 523.
. I was out of the game with limited computer access for the last few days, though.

Meh, I can't read Kitz.
If we get close to deadline and need a lynch I'll hammer.
VOTE: Aeronaut
Post 97 looks like a way of giving himself an excuse to be on mislynch wagons.

What makes you refer to a post 30 pages ago as your sole reason to vote? And why did it come right after the flashwagon on Kitz?

vote: Kitz

I wish there was an extremely succinct outline of what's happened so far this game.

A lot of people replaced out, ABR claimed tracker, viking claimed cop, Klingon claimed VT, and a bunch of people I won't currently name softed things I don't think are true.
. NJ wagon is driven off of hurt feelings, and Klingon's isn't convincingr either. I think Elusive is scum, House is scummy, and would like a flip to determine a few more alignments. And determine who has lied.

C'mon Wake.
I heard so many things about your play, and you can't play. This is almost scummy, but I wonder if it isn't just avoiding the D1 fustercluck.

You should replace out then Wake if you can't play.

Maybe this is the best.

---

(Actually I do have him and TSO at leaning scum, along with FA_Q2 and the House slot.)

Can you lay down your reasons for all four of these slots?

I am hard to understand. Not sure what you mean by close either.

Okay, sounds fun. I mean that Acryon seems to be conservative with his questions and opinions. Kind of introverted or like an observer.

pisskop, you seem like you want people to think you're town, but are actually scum.

Okay. So as asked above, how so?

I'd be happy with a NakedJogger wagon.
VOTE: NakedJogger

. Your slot is essentially contentless.
What is your case on NJ?

Strictly speaking, off policy, lynching klingon has some positives:
<snip>
What am I missing here?

That sounds like a compromise lynch. I dont think compromise lynches are good for us unless we can learn from them.
. What do we learn from lynching Klingon? If she is town, who do we examine further? Or if she flips scum?

Well that's just bullshit. I literally just outlined why I was voting just like four posts ago >.>

@Silver, as of right now I like NJ vote because it feels like his push for Kitz was exaggerated. It seems to me like he was forcing tone a little bit with the way he went about that and I've just been getting weird vibes from him for a little bit.

NJ's push on kitz does seem persistent. Prior to mathblade's self-vote I townread him for posts like 360 and 662. Since then I find his play more stubborn, and I note Ellie's insistence on pushing him for . . . presumably whatever. I'd vote Ellie before NJ.
. Besides,

you've only just voted him

you aren't voting him

What about the case on her don't you like?

I've been townreading her most of the day, and although her thrashing and bargaining could be scum I think her shamelessly trying not to get lynched is desperate town. I also think she is townier than others she interacted with.

Like, I'm asking if it makes sense that Klingon might have been like "hell yeah House is scum" and then when he replaced out she was like "bummer,

This is how I feel. House-slot is going to have some explaining to do.

I guess who I'd vote comes down to who will tell me the most with their flip.
. Klingon claimed VT, House softed neighbor with Klingon. Besides her reads, I'm not seeing any other benefit.
. NJ was a townread independent of his interactions and reads. His flip will only affect those pushing him.

Vote: Klingon

I'm not sure what connection you see between me and Ellie as there is no in-game connection

Really?

she's not a main wagon...I was on elusive beforehand, meaning I wasn't on NJ or Kling...

Aye. I just think her wagon is a better choice tomorrow.

If you had to choose between pisskop, Ellie, and vikingfan, which would you go for and why?

Ellie.
I don't know if I trust Ellie. I do believe viking's claim, though. I can't imagine a D1 cop claim not being outed.

Vikingfan -- Because I don't believe their cop claim
Pisskop -- because I am not sure aboutt heir claim.
ellie -- Because I trust their claim.

SO I would go after VF.

I claimed?

I don't believe in lynching for the sake of lynching especially day one. 9.9 times out of 10, day one lynches in my small experience have been of town. However, barring that the night kill should provide data as well so its not as if the lynch going through in itself would provide some spectacular game breaking insight.

As far as I can tell, NJ is playing like a frustrated townie. If my vote went anywhere it would be Ellie. I'm still scumreading you and Oz's slot.

I'm willing to give Viking a day to prove his himself. I think his reads are consistent with his mindset.

Cripes guys! Why did you hammer now NJ? Why no claiming intent or just waiting?

. I believe ika said he was going to be out until about deadline.


@Wake
. Im not sure Ive even gotten indepth opinions on those three. Dragon maybe, but thats stale now.
Why do you use groups of three?

Spoiler: pisskop and NJ alignment posts

Pisskop starts with a "NJ" read.
Pisskop continues to say "NJ" is a town read but people just have "hurt feelings" aka doubtcast over the wagoners versus provide reasons they are town. Only reason he provided was NJ was "hunting".
1503 -- Concedes maybe scummy ish sort of...But this is better to talk about
1711 -- Then goes "best as I can tell" as if he's trying to make himself seem townier than he is and then insists on NJ being frustrated townie again with no evidence as to why.
Believes VF's cop claim even though he couldn't imagine a D1 cop being outed. So he wouldn't imagine a CC and then goes and tries to believe VF's claim because of it...Like WHAT?
Now knowing Pisskop is scum the Cripes comment looks a lot like cross talk rather than being helpful.

Spoiler: Overall thoughts

If VikingFan is scum NJ is almost certainly scum with them. If VikingFan is town it does provide some doubt over NJ to where I wouldn't be as sure but they'd still be a top scumspect. But if VF is scum you'd hopefully see what I do.

[Shinobi]

@SW: I'm still "meh" on the whole "lynch VF" train. I'm only considering lynching him because it seems like a necessity to get people to stop stuffing their heads up their asses.

I accept the fact that he could be scum, but I think the way we're going about this is completely wrong and I think the lynch is kind of lame based on the circumstances.

[SilverWolf]

@SW: I'm still "meh" on the whole "lynch VF" train. I'm only considering lynching him because it seems like a necessity to get people to stop stuffing their heads up their asses.

I accept the fact that he could be scum, but I think the way we're going about this is completely wrong and I think the lynch is kind of lame based on the circumstances.

What do you think of ABR?

[Shinobi]

@SW: I'm still "meh" on the whole "lynch VF" train. I'm only considering lynching him because it seems like a necessity to get people to stop stuffing their heads up their asses.

I accept the fact that he could be scum, but I think the way we're going about this is completely wrong and I think the lynch is kind of lame based on the circumstances.

What do you think of ABR?

He's acting like bog-standard ABR.

Not someone I find particularly interesting. Not really from a "he's boring" mindset, but from a "I don't think there's much wrong with his play and I don't see what I could/should be commenting on."

Maybe I'll look into him when I'm off work tomorrow. Dnu. We'll see how much of a travesty the thread is in when I return.