Mini 1636: Mafialand Mayhem! - [Game Over]

[Wake1]

Yeah, let's lynch that f***er.

VOTE: MonkeyMan

If he flips Scum let's nail droog.

I actually agree with the above quite a bit. Wake

has

been posting quite a bit in other games / joining other game. However, I don't really see Scum!Wake doing this. Or at least I think Katie / Pacman's defenses of Monkey were extremely shallow.

The more Katie doesn't post, the worse she looks to me. I know she's busy or whatever, but she said she'd be replying to me, and so did Pacman tonight.

I still think Pacman dies today, Katie dies tomorrow.

Uh huh. So how 'bout droog?

Nvm. He's replacing out.

[Aeronaut]

Well, just because he's being replaced doesn't mean he's town. I'm thinking it's Pacman, and then either Katie or droog slot

[Aeronaut]

Leaning Katie.

[llll]

llll, if you're so interested in moving the game along, why haven't you voted yet?

Of the three slots I've been suspicious of, Droog, Katie, and Pacman, I have already (privately) decided to leave Droog alone for today due to whatever he has going on. As I have stated before, I was waiting for Pacman to post before voting, and boy, was it worth the wait. I haven't thought about Pacman's post thoroughly, and I am not in

full

agreement with all of the analysis, but the post is very helpful and productive. I've tried reading parts of Day 1 before, and it just makes my head swim after some time, so props to Pacman for getting through that sludge of a day.

Vote: KatieB

I am here, but am having difficulty putting time towards the game.

Won't spend hours diving into this game.

Am staying in it atm because MM did try to railroad me Yesterday, so that's worth something.

Literally nothing here you haven't said before. *sigh*

Uh huh. So how 'bout droog?

You just can't stop talking about how Monkey voted for you while you were gone, but now you're doing the same to Droog?

P-edit: I started this post way too long ago, so I'll be addressing Katie's post on in my next one.

[Aeronaut]

My plan is to drop all of my reads and try to go into what I'm about to do with as little presupposition about what I already think about the game so that I can first analyze Monkey's play and votes on him as objectively as possible, and then see how he interacted with players and how people interacted with him. This VCA will not yet take into account peoples' posting and reasoning for their votes, I first just want to see whose voting footprint seems tunnelly, weirdly associated with Monkey, or too flaky.

"My plan is to completely contradict everything I've said thus far, in order to gain town cred"

Votecount 1.2

Wake88 (2): Aneninen, Aeronaut
evilpacman18 (2): Luca Blight, KatieB
curiouskarmadog (1): MonkeyMan576
Aeronaut (1): Lapsa
Ollie (1): curiouskarmadog

Not voting (6): evilpacman18, BP, Drake Crusader, Wake88, Ollie, llll

Monkey's RVS vote was on ckd with a joke about his name. Because of the reference to names, it's hard to gauge whether this is a relevant vote but I still doubt Monkey would RVS his scumbuddy.

We're on day 3, and you're sitting here analyzing RVS votes. Are you seriously giving Ckd towncred for being voted by Monkey during RVS? Hint: RVS does not stand for "Relevant Vote Stage"

To be clear, what is said during RVS is relevant. The votes alone are not.

Votecount 1.7

KatieB (3): Luca Blight, Drake Crusader, llll
MonkeyMan576 (3): curiouskarmadog, Aeronaut, Aneninen
Wake88 (1): Lapsa
Lapsa (1): droog
evilpacman18 (1): KatieB

Not voting (4): evilpacman18, Wake88, Ollie, MonkeyMan576

Suggests that KatieB could be scum with Monkey, and also suggests, given Luca's town flip, that Reticent and llll are more likely to be town, especially if Katie does turn out to be scum (highly doubt Monkey would leave wagon on scumbuddy if another scumbuddy joined him bussing).

Votecount 1.9

MonkeyMan576 (5): curiouskarmadog, Aeronaut, Aneninen, llll, evilpacman18

L-2

KatieB (3): Luca Blight, Drake Crusader, MonkeyMan576
Luca Blight (1): Lapsa
Lapsa (1): droog
evilpacman18 (1): KatieB

Not voting (2): Wake88, Ollie,

Monkey gets close to lynch for the first time here but then both Anen and llll unvote

Are you asserting that they are scum because they unvoted? Because one flipped town, and you said llll was town like three sentences ago.

Votecount 1.11

MonkeyMan576 (5): curiouskarmadog, Aeronaut, Lapsa, Aneninen, Gendaberry

L-2

KatieB (2): Luca Blight, Drake Crusader
Lapsa (1): droog
evilpacman18 (1): KatieB
curiouskarmadog (1): llll

Not voting (3): Wake88, MonkeyMan576, evilpacman18

The wagon changes a lot from 1.10 to 1.11 because I left it, and Anen came back along with Gendaberry. ckd and Aeronaut are both quite tunnelly by now, one is possibly scum, I know from experience that hardcore tunneling a scumbuddy is a good way to clear your name for a while. Actually I have a bad habit of doing it like all the time when I'm scum.

You mean like what you're doing with Katie right now?

Votecount 2.2

MonkeyMan576 (2): curiouskarmadog, Aeronaut
Wake88 (1): MonkeyMan576
Aneninen (1): evilpacman18

Not voting (7): droog, llll, Gendaberry, Aneninen, Drake Crusader, KatieB, Wake88

Votecount 2.3

MonkeyMan576 (5): curiouskarmadog, Aneninen, Aeronaut, llll, evilpacman18

L-1

llll (3): Gendaberry, droog, MonkeyMan576

Not voting (7): Drake Crusader, KatieB, Wake88

I'm very uncomfortable with ckd and Aeronaut's level of certainty on Monkey. I checked, Aeronaut switched to voting llll and back to monkey in between these two VCs which I'm not sure what to think of. llll is almost certainly town as a counterwagon to Monkey that Monkey himself supported.

And now, llll is town again, after being certain scum a few paragraphs ago.

Votecount 2.7

MonkeyMan576 (6): curiouskarmadog, llll, Reticent, Gendaberry, Wake88, Aeronaut

LYNCH

llll (2): droog, MonkeyMan576
evilpacman18 (1): Aneninen
Gendaberry (1): KatieB


Not voting (1): evilpacman18

Wake88 coming out of nowhere to join the Monkey wagon is probably townish since this was close to deadline and he would've done well as scum to keep lurking and hope time ran out.

Same goes for Aeronaut but he's more active so his vote at the end of the wagon looks mostly reluctant, ie. scummy.

This is dependent on what actually happened in the posts around that period.
[/quote]
So, you're telling me that Wake coming from nowhere and just voting monkey for voting him is

less

scummy to you than me, voting for the person who I wanted dead all game?

So from this I'd guess scum are KatieB and either ckd or Aeronaut. Aeronaut voting KatieB right now will look good if she ends up flipping scum. llll is clearly town and Gendaberry as well is very likely to be.

vote: KatieB

I'm not even voting Katie right now, I'm voting you, ya dingus.

That whole case was contradictory, mainly fluff, and barely about Katie, yet, Katie is suddenly scum above all else.

Please, can we lynch this.

[Aeronaut]

llll, if you're so interested in moving the game along, why haven't you voted yet?

Of the three slots I've been suspicious of, Droog, Katie, and Pacman, I have already (privately) decided to leave Droog alone for today due to whatever he has going on. As I have stated before, I was waiting for Pacman to post before voting, and boy, was it worth the wait. I haven't thought about Pacman's post thoroughly, and I am not in

full

agreement with all of the analysis, but the post is very helpful and productive. I've tried reading parts of Day 1 before, and it just makes my head swim after some time, so props to Pacman for getting through that sludge of a day.

Vote: KatieB

I am here, but am having difficulty putting time towards the game.

Won't spend hours diving into this game.

Am staying in it atm because MM did try to railroad me Yesterday, so that's worth something.

Literally nothing here you haven't said before. *sigh*

Uh huh. So how 'bout droog?

You just can't stop talking about how Monkey voted for you while you were gone, but now you're doing the same to Droog?

P-edit: I started this post way too long ago, so I'll be addressing Katie's post on in my next one.

Eww, you agree with that shit? Helpful and productive?

Were we reading the same post?

[Aeronaut]

Oh and I fucked up one of the quotes up there.

[Aeronaut]

Aero et al, what do you make of ||||'s drama?

I don't really get why he's bothering with people who he says are town, to be honest.

I get that it's pretty frustrating having like nobody be active here, trust me, because I literally feel like I'm talking to nobody here. But really, I've also been in games where people haven't posted for a long, long time, just prod dodging over and over, and we're on page 31 for two weeks straight.

[KatieB]

Looking at Katie vs. Monkeyman, she was defending him on the grounds of being low-hanging fruit, which is the same exact wording that Pacman used. For her, monkey is functionally a policy lynch.

Okay? I've said multiple times that I have trouble separating bad town players from bad scum players. Monkey couldn't adequately explain why he did anything at all this game. As far as I could tell he was constitutionally incapable of scumhunting.

She also has varying stances on myself, and on Droog.

Okay? Are you really surprised that after being catastrophically wrong I'd reevaluate my reads?

Did not like wake's entry today. Did not like your(Aero's) entry today.

This seems very weak to me.

define weak please.

"Droog is town unless Monkey flips scum". Well, he did. So what changed your mind all of a sudden? Why aren't you lynching droog today like you said you were going to yesterday?

I didn't say that at all. I said that the quote made droog town

unless monkey was scum

. I didn't say it meant that if he was scum, they were scum together. Please don't put words in my mouth.

Basically, I think it's possible that two things were decided in the Scum QT:
1. Monkey's lynch should be passed off as a fluke and his buddies opposing the lynch should say that it just seemed like to easy of a lynch (hence the "low hanging fruit")
2. That I should be the lynch today because I was catching on. It was probably between me and Ana, and since she was more active, you figured you could NK her and then get me lynched.

What am I supposed to say to this? You're creating a narrative out of nothing; literally any events could get plugged in here. Look, I have one too!
Basically, I think it's possible that two things were decided in the Scum QT:
1. Monkey was useless all yesterday and at least one of his buddies decided to bus him for cred. They then decided that the people not on the wagon would make easy targets today.
2. That I should be the lynch today because I was wrong about scum twice. The nightkill was intended to foster apathy, and a surface level lynch like mine is really easy to push through when everyone in the game is fatigued.

[Aeronaut]

Looking at Katie vs. Monkeyman, she was defending him on the grounds of being low-hanging fruit, which is the same exact wording that Pacman used. For her, monkey is functionally a policy lynch.

Okay? I've said multiple times that I have trouble separating bad town players from bad scum players. Monkey couldn't adequately explain why he did anything at all this game. As far as I could tell he was constitutionally incapable of scumhunting.

Well, couldn't not being able to explain things and doing things for seemingly no reason also be classified as a common scum tell?

She also has varying stances on myself, and on Droog.

Okay? Are you really surprised that after being catastrophically wrong I'd reevaluate my reads?

I don't understand how I, who you had a strong townread on D2, clearly attacking and then hammering monkey who was scum, changes your read at all, especially considering how strong it was. It makes zero sense, and you know it.

Did not like wake's entry today. Did not like your(Aero's) entry today.

This seems very weak to me.

define weak please.

Weak - Shallow, Flat, not holding much weight.

"Droog is town unless Monkey flips scum". Well, he did. So what changed your mind all of a sudden? Why aren't you lynching droog today like you said you were going to yesterday?

I didn't say that at all. I said that the quote made droog town

unless monkey was scum

. I didn't say it meant that if he was scum, they were scum together. Please don't put words in my mouth.

Well, generally, if you're not town, you're scum, so scum was the other option. You went and implied that Droog could be scum if monkey flipped scum, and then the next day simply stated that Droog was still town. The definition of words, but not actions.

Basically, I think it's possible that two things were decided in the Scum QT:
1. Monkey's lynch should be passed off as a fluke and his buddies opposing the lynch should say that it just seemed like to easy of a lynch (hence the "low hanging fruit")
2. That I should be the lynch today because I was catching on. It was probably between me and Ana, and since she was more active, you figured you could NK her and then get me lynched.

What am I supposed to say to this? You're creating a narrative out of nothing; literally any events could get plugged in here. Look, I have one too!
Basically, I think it's possible that two things were decided in the Scum QT:
1. Monkey was useless all yesterday and at least one of his buddies decided to bus him for cred. They then decided that the people not on the wagon would make easy targets today.
2. That I should be the lynch today because I was wrong about scum twice. The nightkill was intended to foster apathy, and a surface level lynch like mine is really easy to push through when everyone in the game is fatigued.

I dunno, I think mine makes for a better read.

[Aeronaut]

Katie, I don't know if you've stated this already, but what's your opinion on the alignment of Pacman?

[llll]

Neither KatieB nor sthar appear to have any other games going on,

The logical leap here is astounding. I am alive in other games.

Provide a link, then. This is KatieB's only game. Sthar8 has not been posting in other games. I have no way of knowing your other alts, which is not my decision and therefore not something you have any right to blame me for.

are a one line incomprehensible insult about short pants

having just admitted that you didn't understand it, what makes you think it's an insult?

I thought you meant it as an insult. I suppose I could be wrong - maybe it's one of those non sequiturs you write when you see people mistrusting you (

in a mafia game!

) that you say frustrate you so much.

I have failed in my objective of being polite

maybe

three times in this thread. Have you meta'd my main?

If you fail multiple times at being polite, then maybe you should not describe yourself as polite. I have not read your past games - that's too much effort for a game where other players write stuff like "This might help restore some of my motivation for the game." I did read your posts in the St. Nick's thread while I was checking if you were playing in other games, and I liked you a lot more in that thread.

Let's be clear: I don't like you. I find it hard to address you without using profanity. As a result, I care very little about how you feel about me.

I already thought you didn't like me despite your alleged politeness, so I am not about to go off and buy a pillow to cry into.

@Aeronaut
I think you're reading way too aggressively into Pacman's post.
Pacman's "Monkey gets close to lynch for the first time here but then both Anen and llll unvote" does not deserve
Aeronaut's "Are you asserting that they are scum because they unvoted? Because one flipped town, and you said llll was town like three sentences ago."
Pacman did not assert Aneninen or llll is scum. I think he was just commenting on the events that transpired, instead of judging them. You also say that Pacman called me "certain scum" later on, but I did not notice that.

I think our different responses may stem, at least to some degree, from the different reads Pacman gave us. I don't agree with a lot of the stuff Pacman's been saying about you, but to be fair, you've been doing some misrepping back. I feel a lot more comfortable lynching Katie, especially since if she's town,

I've said multiple times that I have trouble separating bad town players from bad scum players.

then I'd rather mislynch someone who is self-admittedly bad at scumhunting than someone who is not.

I'm not saying Pacman's post gives me a townread on him, but I definitely consider Katie scummier than Pacman at this point.

[KatieB]

Well, couldn't not being able to explain things and doing things for seemingly no reason also be classified as a common scum tell?

Sure, if you like lynching townies. Have you never played with TIP or bert or saki or marquis or metal sonic or titus? There are dozens of players who have inscrutable reasoning for doing weird things, just as there are dozens of players who cannot articulate their gut reads. The trick is catching them doing things that

help scum

, not things that don't help anybody.

I don't understand how I, who you had a strong townread on D2, clearly attacking and then hammering monkey who was scum, changes your read at all, especially considering how strong it was. It makes zero sense, and you know it.

I was catastrophically wrong on a townread and a scumread. I threw all my reads out at the beginning of today and started fresh. You were on and off the monkey wagon repeatedly for two days. The hammer was a deadline hammer on a consensus lynch, and you asked him to claim like three times. Seems to me you were looking for an excuse not to lynch him at the last moment. Then you had a daystart post that both celebrated the scumlynch and distanced yourself from the nightkill. So I voted you with no explanation. Then SUDDENLY I'm in your scumreads, and you're digging up nonsensical things to manufacture the read in 1065. Plus you're a big proponent of the same three scumreads that like half the players share, and you've been setting up future lynches.

Weak - Shallow, Flat, not holding much weight.

Okay. I don't understand your point.

Well, generally, if you're not town, you're scum, so scum was the other option. You went and implied that Droog could be scum if monkey flipped scum, and then the next day simply stated that Droog was still town. The definition of words, but not actions.

No, I stated that I don't

think

I want to lynch droog today. Also, null reads are a thing that can happen. You're scumreading me from implications that you drew from my words that don't follow from the words themselves, and you're continuously inaccurate about what those words were.

I dunno, I think mine makes for a better read.

And I think mine is better! Wow, we're both so convincing!

[llll]

If you wanna get anywhere in this game ||||, you gotta change your attitude.

Fuck you.
I don't take advice from pretentious idiot braggadocios who treat this game flippantly and don't bother to read or even skim the thread. You're the shittiest player in this thread, and that includes Lapsa. All you do is post whiny posts about how you don't have time to post, which is a lie. And then you whine about how scum voted for you once. Everyone already knows this

because you never shut up about it

.

And then you have to gall to talk about getting anywhere in the game and changing attitudes. I'm quite satisfied with my place in the game. Here's a tip about attitudes: nobody gives a damn what some loser with a sociopath for a role model has to say about playing mafia. It's not Gregory House's insight or intelligence that you have; only House's

douchebag

personality.
Here's to wishing the scum kill you. To be perfectly clear, fuck you.

Replace out and let the town have a chance to win with players who actually try to win. You shouldn't have come back if you're not willing to play.

Aero et al, what do you make of ||||'s drama?

Meta me if you think it's scummy. Just kidding, I know that takes

reading

skills. Go respond with that sob story of how the big bad MonkeyMan voted for you one time. Boo hoo.

[llll]

apathy is going to kill town in this game, I think.

Monkey may be scum, but he was not lying here.

[llll]

@Katie Please mention what other games you are playing. I understand you don't like me, and you may feel you are unlikely to persuade me of your being town, but I don't think I'm asking for much here.

[KatieB]

Neither KatieB nor sthar appear to have any other games going on,

The logical leap here is astounding. I am alive in other games.

Provide a link, then. This is KatieB's only game. Sthar8 has not been posting in other games. I have no way of knowing your other alts, which is not my decision and therefore not something you have any right to blame me for.

blame you for what? The whole logical chain is bad. 1. Activity in one game but not another is not alignment indicative. 2. Knowing that I play with at least one alt does not imply that I have no other alts. 3. Not having other games does not imply that I have free time (and in fact I'm playing mostly in hydra games right now so that I'll have a partner to take over for me when I lose access.) 4. Knowing that I played as a

secret alt

does not imply that I'd be willing to tell you if I had another, even if it were relevant.

are a one line incomprehensible insult about short pants

having just admitted that you didn't understand it, what makes you think it's an insult?

I thought you meant it as an insult. I suppose I could be wrong - maybe it's one of those non sequiturs you write when you see people mistrusting you (

in a mafia game!

) that you say frustrate you so much.

what are you even talking about?

I have failed in my objective of being polite

maybe

three times in this thread. Have you meta'd my main?

If you fail multiple times at being polite, then maybe you should not describe yourself as polite. I have not read your past games - that's too much effort for a game where other players write stuff like "This might help restore some of my motivation for the game." I did read your posts in the St. Nick's thread while I was checking if you were playing in other games, and I liked you a lot more in that thread.

I'm sorry that I have a hard time engaging in a game where I get scumread for things like which account I'm playing under and abridging quotes without changing their meaning.

You read the thread where I called someone a 'disgusting failure,' 'willfully ignorant,' 'detestable,' 'failing to meet basic standards of human decency,' and told him to 'at least pretend to act like a human adult, at least where people can see' but you don't see the effort to be less abrasive in this thread, where the worst I've done is tell you that you were acting like a teenager and monkey that he needs to improve his communication skills?


p-edit actually your last post makes me feel a lot better about you. Why are you townreading wake again?

[KatieB]

@Katie Please mention what other games you are playing. I understand you don't like me, and you may feel you are unlikely to persuade me of your being town, but I don't think I'm asking for much here.

Linking to ongoing games could be discussing them and would then be against site rules. I'm not comfortable with that.

I will tell you I'm not very active on site right now because of my meatworld stuff, and that IF you wanted to look into my games I have a hydra with my brother called Lying Cat.

[KatieB]

I'm here for a little bit and the kids are all asleep. If you want to pow-wow I can be civil.

[Gendaberry]

Aero et al, what do you make of ||||'s drama?

I don't really get why he's bothering with people who he says are town, to be honest.

|||| is scumreading Katie now, and I'm pretty sure that Katie is a part of "||||'s drama".

@Wake
What do you think of pacman's VCA? Or well honestly anything that's happened at all that doesn't involve monkey voting you.

@Pacman
Did you only just now discover that CKD has been on Monkey the whole game? If you think that CKD's level of certainty was scummy, why didn't you point it out sooner considering that he's been tunneling monkey extremly hard for most of the game?

[evilpacman18]

My plan is to drop all of my reads and try to go into what I'm about to do with as little presupposition about what I already think about the game so that I can first analyze Monkey's play and votes on him as objectively as possible, and then see how he interacted with players and how people interacted with him. This VCA will not yet take into account peoples' posting and reasoning for their votes, I first just want to see whose voting footprint seems tunnelly, weirdly associated with Monkey, or too flaky.

"My plan is to completely contradict everything I've said thus far, in order to gain town cred"

"My plan is to read this post as scummy even though I don't even know what it says yet"

We're on day 3, and you're sitting here analyzing RVS votes. Are you seriously giving Ckd towncred for being voted by Monkey during RVS? Hint: RVS does not stand for "Relevant Vote Stage"

To be clear, what is said during RVS is relevant. The votes alone are not.

That's not true. Also it clearly is not a big part of my conclusions on this post, I'm just observing the vote counts, that's what VCA is. Not to mention I showed that I'm aware that what is said during RVS is relevant by making that one of the only instances where I actually went and checked the reasoning for votes, not just the information in the vote count.

Are you asserting that they are scum because they unvoted? Because one flipped town, and you said llll was town like three sentences ago.

No, I am just stating what happened, why are you reading into that so much? Not to mention that I mention anen flipping town like two sentences later, I'm clearly aware of that.

And now, llll is town again, after being certain scum a few paragraphs ago.

I don't even need to point out how ridiculous and misreppy it is to say that I called llll "certain scum"

So, you're telling me that Wake coming from nowhere and just voting monkey for voting him is less scummy to you than me, voting for the person who I wanted dead all game?

Again, I'm just deducing as much as I can from plain VCs and what I saw was you leaving the Monkey wagon and coming back at the end. Also I pointed out that it's speculative and I have to actually go reread all that.

I'm not even voting Katie right now, I'm voting you, ya dingus.

I was looking at votecount 3.2

That whole case was contradictory, mainly fluff, and barely about Katie, yet, Katie is suddenly scum above all else.

I definitely was very consistent and concise and just because you didn't quote and misrep my thoughts on Katie doesn't mean they weren't there.

Anyway

@Pacman
Did you only just now discover that CKD has been on Monkey the whole game? If you think that CKD's level of certainty was scummy, why didn't you point it out sooner considering that he's been tunneling monkey extremly hard for most of the game?

Since I'm, like I said..., abandoning my presuppositions, it also means taking another look at ckd who I was previously town reading. The fact that he had his vote parked for two straight days looks a lot worse in a mod iso than it probably did in context because IIRC ckd didn't spend all his time just talking about how we should lynch monkey. It's also just day 3 and I'm getting a bit paranoid since I was totally wrong on monkey not to mention I've expected ckd to die on both nights. Basically it's just a thought right now... also I did put this out there:

ckd, don't get tunnelly. consider Aeronaut or droog scum if you get a chance. just consider, idk how I feel about it yet either.

[Wake1]

PM'd Riddleton and reported |||| for abusive behavior in 1138.

[Aeronaut]

God, this game got a bit mean.

Phone posting right now.

I'm curious to see how long it takes for Pacman to unvote katie.

[llll]

@Wake I was kind of hoping you would vote for me. Even that would be an improvement over your current gameplay.

All this content happening from Aeronaut, Katie, and Pacman, and you still have. Nothing. To. Say.
If tattling is all you can bring yourself to do with regard to this game, why not replace out?

[Reticent]

I think this game needs a collective group hug.



Oh, also:

VOTE: KatieB

Pacman still looks town to me. A lot of the criticism lodged against him reads as, "I've already decided you're scum so now everything you do is scummy.