SMITE Role Madness Mafia (OVER AT LAST!)

[Solar Wind]

Here are the post I have in regards to why ace is scum.
started here
what I noted about his play
issues summorized

I agree with your description of Ace's play but it feels more like you describing sub-optimal town play than scum play.

How is that town play at all? I see more often scum skating by then town.

I'll address this one by one.

1. AceOfSpades using neighborhoods in the plural is not a scumslip because you'd have to think he was mistaking his scum PT for a neighborhood and think that he is in two neighborhoods. But if he does believe that he received links to two neighborhood, he wouldn't even know he was scum. Overall, that train of thought doesn't make sense as a scumslip. I agree with you that his response seemed awkward because he seems to be referring to neighborhoods across games whereas his original post seemed to refer to this game alone and I would like him to explain that clearly.

2. He never said what he doesn't like about AP but that's more a playstyle thing than alignment-indicative. I normally provide abundant reasoning as scum because I do so as town. I've never seen someone who provides reasoning for their reads as town and doesn't do it as scum. It would be suicide.

3. The 3 post thing is meh. Could be snippy town or snippy scum.

4. I don't think his AP hop is opportunistic considering AP wasn't under popular suspicion at that time with only me pushing him. If anything AP voting Ace in omgus feels more opportunistic.

5. His reasons for AP-scum is pretty weak actually as not liking the push on you isn't a basis for a scumread. But he also pointed out Post 1058 which I completely agree feels scummy.

Overall, I have him as town but not my strongest townread and want him to get engaged but I don't like how easily the wagon on him sprung up and how he seems to be a default lynch today. If I had to compromise on a "default" lynch on an inactive, I'd do VysePresident over Ace anyday. But I also have decent scumreads on Ceph/Mastin/AP who are my preferred lynches.

[Solar Wind]

A potential mea culpa.

This refers to what, exactly?

If I wanted to explain it, I would have.

I don't know if you are trying to pick a fight again for the heck of it but please don't.

[Imperium]

*sigh*

[TiphaineDeath]

I do not like this interaction Sam-I-Am. Note to self, Stick-With-Your-Gut, and logic and everyone else be damned. VOTE: Solar Wind

[Solar Wind]

I'm still weary of cephrir but I liked his response to the case. Way lot less manipulative than I associate with scum!cephrir. Talked to nacho for a bit about cephrir, and while he's admitted he's not great at readin cephrir (we both have a tendency to town-read him/be manipulated by him) and he's not interested in lynching cephrir today.

I disagree. His response actually spent quite a bit of time discrediting than addressing suspicion normally and his response

was

manipulative.

He responded to your case on him. He discredited you a bit in pieces along the way, but not in a way that was out of the range of "cephrir-town addressing a push from someone he thinks is town" on him.

It was manipulative if he was scum. It wasn't out of range for town behaviors.

First off, he didn't discredit in NY169 or Serum and Steel. If you compare his response in Serum and Steel, it was pretty much to-the-point with no discrediting elements. There is an INSANELY sharp contrast to this post. I'll quote it here:

Spoiler: Town Ceph's response to suspicion

Well, this is annoying. I thought we were done focusing on me for a while.

I'm massively shocked and surprised that Cephrir hasn't already been lynched. He's playing exactly how he would play as scum. He's staying on top of the game, asking questions, "scumhunting," and putting on a show of being an upstanding townie. His play has several similarities to Tales of You where he was scum and is incredibly different from NY169 where he was town. Cephrir prefers playing scum to town and loves the aspect of manipulating people whereas when he is town, he struggles to keep himself motivated.

Usually, but not always. It amuses me that at least thus far, your case amounts to "Chandra is scum because she doesn't look like scum". It just so happens that I'm capable of getting into a good groove as town; it simply doesn't always happen. I was determined not to make a reference to the different account again, but I have to note that trying to maintain a slightly different persona actually is really helping me maintain my interest in this game. It gives me something to do and actually, on some level, I enjoy it for some of the same reasons I enjoy being scum.

To give an idea of the type of manipulation Cephrir is good at, it basically involves making arguments that will resonate with the most influential players in a game. In this game it is clearly xMuffiman, Trustworthy, and to some extent Pixel assuming none of them are scum with him. Now look at the way Cephrir postures around the various arguments early on in the game.

I won't argue with the basic premise here, but you know what kind of argument resonates with influential players? A good argument. Though you'll definitely see me deviating into bad arguments as scum (Xenosaga, Day 2, I knew the case on Kagami was pretty bad and helped push it through anyway).

Notice how Cephrir takes on the argument between Titus and Tammy in Post 98 by interjecting himself saying "that didn't happen" when Titus accused Tammy of rolefishing in Post 95. But if you actually look at Tammy's Post 91, she does suggest the possibility of having those who have the synth claim so we could analyze that information and Titus can be forgiven for considering it a rolefish. However, Cephrir interjects himself in there before Tammy can respond to quickly defend against the accusation which also subtly makes Titus look bad even though her concerns were reasonable.

This isn't actually an example of the point you were just making, but it doesn't count as a rolefish anyway when she was hating on her own idea.

Cephrir as scum is also fantastic at doing what the people expect of him. For instance, everyone knows zMuffin is a good scum player and inspires paranoia so the moment Ffery townreads him, he jumps in pointing out that this was "muffin we are talking about" in Post 106. This is probably not conclusive because I do think Ffery's townread was a bit hasty but this is one of the patterns I see from Cephrir about doing what is expected of him which fits with his scumplay.

If you wanted to argue this as not being a reason for townreading me, I'd be on board with this. What behavior, though, by this logic, could I possibly elicit in order to get a townread form you, other than sitting around being a completely useless townie like I sometimes do? And what's to stop me from trying to imitate /that/?

Cephrir's Post 132 feels off. He questions Antihero on his Pixel vote at a time when Antihero had telegraphed his vote quite clearly and it seems more like a move to buddy Pixel as well as instigate conflict. Post 154 is pretty damn useless as far as scumhunting goes but could possibly work as a manipulation device. His posts to Trustworthy amount to "<3" and "aww man", his posts are SKOT are more pushing, (I feel like Cephrir is picking up on an easy target), and his posts to Antihero are more defense of Pixel.

I don't even remember these posts especially and I'm not about to go back and look at them, but congratulations, you've done it, you've actually managed to attribute more intricate planning to me than I actually have even when I *am* scum! Not sure why it's so outlandish that I might have actually had a scumread on SKOT, different players are different and don't have to agree. You'll notice if you go further though that I've backed off and now consider him only a mild scumread.

It is really obvious Cephrir is scum here

Not only is this not true, it's also literally never been true.

I think you're wrong F16 and you give far too much credit to ceph about him abilities.

And I think you just can't let me have even one thing without belittling my accomplishments~

Can you explain your read there in more depth?

[Imperium]

A potential mea culpa.

This refers to what, exactly?

If I wanted to explain it, I would have.

I don't know if you are trying to pick a fight again for the heck of it but please don't.

She didn't want to talk more about it because it's role-related.

[Solar Wind]

She didn't want to talk more about it because it's role-related.

That's fine then. I left you a bunch of questions in the neighborhood. Also, would like an explanation for your town-read on Ceph and this is one of those time you really, really have to make it good.

[Imperium]

I don't really enjoy defending Ceph before he defends himself. I'm also not ready to give a full response on Cephrir considering the whole still phone posting thing.

[Imperium]

In that game, Cephrir was playing under an alt that made the game more enjoyable (since he was playing a different personality as a result). He had already been under suspicion a bit that game. He felt like he was very much in the groove that game. This game is different in that his mindset will be different, which translates to a different approach to dealing with scumreads.

[Imperium]

Being scum read*

[Solar Wind]

I don't really enjoy defending Ceph before he defends himself. I'm also not ready to give a full response on Cephrir considering the whole still phone posting thing.

And now that he has responded? And sure, I'll wait till you get ahold of a computer but I'd love to hear actual reasons for town-Ceph based on the entirety of your experience with him as scum.

[farside22]

Actual 1825 is pretty good thought process for town reason.
I think my issue is ace hasn't said anything that wasn't already expressed by others.

I think im going to review my td scum read and rach scum read either tonight or tomorrow

Unvote

I'll also get more into my mastin issues.

Everything may not happenby tomorrow, but in the next 3 days slowly for sure.

[Solar Wind]

ffery here.

I'm kinda at a loss. I'm not scumreading Ceph nearly to the extent that f-16 is, and I am seeing a lot of stuff that I feel could come from Ceph as either alignment, and the overall sense I get from his reaction to our push is a slight town sense. I don't how to weigh up my low-confidence read against f-16's high confidence read.

However, I feel like the TAOS lynch if it goes through will be a mislynch, but this isn't a townread for the ages.

I'd still like to look elsewhere.

[Solar Wind]

F-16 here.

I actually would like thoughts on VysePresident as well. He's probably the only "lurker" that I have serious concerns about and has been escaping scrutiny while other lurkers who I thought were more town have come under pressure.

[farside22]

Yea.

I get that. Not sure if this is vsye's first large game (I think he's new if I have the right person in my head).


Vyse: are you reading/catching on, playing this game?

[RachMarie]

umm SW I would say with role madness that the scum are not VT and not likely to claim VT. What fake claims they may give might be problematic. They may have mod provided fake claims, but I am not sure on this though. In my experience I have had games where the scum were provided with fake claims and games where they were not, Same with modding games I have done it both ways, though more often not given fake claims unless it was something like role madness U Pick. Which is why I think it could be possible here.


Pedit to farside
I get the feeling Vyse can be sorted out tomorrow he will either have caught up by then or he will be replaced. Right now there really is not much to go on. I have had times like that where I was so busy I just posted a few catch up posts/prod dodges and I was sometimes scum sometimes town. So it could just be he is really busy. Anyone check to see if had any completed scum games on site?

[RachMarie]

I think we need to consolidate on Ace at this point. I would hate to see us get down to the wire on someone and have to really compromise or end up worse yet with a NL on D 1. That is such bad juju

[Solar Wind]

Sorry but I'm just not seeing Ace as scum and this is something Ffery and I agree on. We're not voting Ace. I'd love for people who have such a problem seeing Ceph as scum suggest alternatives. Mastin is a great choice as is AP and Vyse.

[Solar Wind]

@ Tammy,

I was thinking about the last few pages and I'm still not following your thought process here:

1) You claim that Ceph was your strongest scumread and then say that I would explain why better than you could citing the fact that you were busy.

2) After I posted and Ceph responded, he now assuaged your concerns enough that you don't want to lynch him anymore based on him being discrediting but within the range of town-Ceph? So, basically you are saying his response was null but he changed your mind anyways. How would your strongest scumread posting a null response change your mind so drastically?

3) You say you are still wary of Ceph but not interested in lynching him, why? Do you have stronger scumreads that you prefer to lynch then? As far as I can tell, you don't have any other strong reads and we have to lynch someone so why are you against lynching a player that you are wary of?

4) You never actually addressed my point that he was different from Serum and Steel where his response did not feel like discrediting at all. And I don't buy that playing under an outed alt affects whether you discredit players.

5) Who would you lynch if not Ceph, and why that player over Ceph?

@ Nacho,

1) I really, really want that Ceph townread explained like right now. You haven't given jack as to why you are reading Ceph as town. You just are. I don't want a refutation of my case. I want an explanation "

why Nacho has a townread on Ceph.

"

2) I'm also concerned that you have all of Mastin/AP/Ceph as either town or unwilling to lynch. You have no suspects at all and you are being obstructionist with regard to my pushes which fits with your scumgame and doesn't at all make sense with your towngame. It feels like you are giving me resistance so I don't have the time to re-evaluate.

[Cephrir]

It's not a custody battle. I can defend myself. :/

[Imperium]

Not answering. Sorry. I think I've been very clear in my posts.

If Nacho wants to put up with this he can, I'm not.

[Solar Wind]

I don't want to get into a back and forth wall war with a scumread but I'll address a few key points from Ceph's response in Post 1811:

5. The "

Did you even talk to Ffery about this

comment implies that Ffery is better at reading him than I am which again feels like appealing to Ffery second guessing her read. Obviously we talk about reads. We're a hydra. We don't run specific points by each other. He is presenting Ffery up as an authority in reading him so he can leverage her uncertainty. Also doesn't match up with Mafia On the Air where he suggested that I be nightkilled immediately as well as Tales where I spent the better part of late-game trying to get scum-Ceph lynched.

6. My argument here was that the comment about Rach/Ffery was meant to inspire long-term paranoia and break up the townbloc. Ceph townreading Rach has nothing to do with that. It tries to present someone unfavorably to cause rifts among the town. Same with me/FT.

9. The Serum and Steel flashback doesn't make sense as I was townreading him later on in the game. I was also much less sure than I claimed to be.

There's other little stuff littered around like complaining about the language of the post and saying that I'm making broad, generalizations without evidence when I supplied a wall full of them.

[Solar Wind]

Not answering. Sorry. I think I've been very clear in my posts.

If Nacho wants to put up with this he can, I'm not.

If I thought you were clear, I wouldn't have asked.

[ooba]

@F-16:
Your analysis on me was spot on. I'm surprised you're able to pull that off with just a history of one game (FFX Mafia).
Regarding Cephrir, while I'm paranoid - I don't want to lynch him today. While I can't put my finger on it, *something* seems town in Cephrir's play.

Also, I skimmed ISOs of Tales of You. The recent interaction between Solar Wind and Imperium reads exactly like that. I think you guys should mutually read each other as town and start working together from there.

In other news, a FT wagon seems viable again. I should point out that FT has virtually disappeared close to deadline - townies push\care more about who's getting lynched.

Unvote. Vote: FourTrouble

[Imperium]

I realize that might sound snippy, but both Nacho and I have had stuff going on this week and we've been very clear about that. We've been very clear that we've not read this game in its entirety yet, and nacho might never do that. I might who knows.

I said exactly why I didn't want to lynch Cephrir.

Nacho never claimed this super town read you seem to be seeing in him. He doesn't seem him as super scum and he's not interested in lynching him today.

Telling you why he doesn't agree with your case

is not being obstructionist

and demanding stuff from us is not going to get you what you want. I will not be hounded to do your bidding. If you want to work with us, work with us, demanding us to be whatever impression you think we're supposed to be will get you nowhere with this head.

I don't know who I want to lynch right now. Probably vise. We're voting Mastin so I don't get your point. I don't get how you don't understand Nacho's point of view

when you hydra with nacho

and have played with him plenty regardless, so his position should not come as a shock to you.

If you feel like you need to go through the pointless exercise of doing a mass re-evaluation, fine. But don't expect me to be pleasant in return when I feel like I'm being hounded and being made demands on.